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Demystifying The Indie Film Journey
This is Truly Independent, a show that demystifies the indie film journey by documenting the process of releasing independent films in theaters. Each week, Garrett Batty and I, Darren Smith, will update you on our journey, bringing guests to share their insights into the process and answer your questions. In today's episode, we're joined by Desmond Denton, a South African born filmmaker that we have been looking forward to speaking with about his films and his trajectory in the film industry, and we answer 2 listener questions about being a multi hyphenate and about how to allocate your budget for p and a. This is episode 14 of Truly Independent. Garrett.
Daren:Oh, we're back. Another episode. I'm so stoked.
Garrett:Here we are.
Daren:How are you, man? Yeah, man. How are
Garrett:you doing? It's good to see you.
Daren:It is good to be seen. I am doing well. You know, today is a monumental day, for two reasons. 1, we're a month away from the Friday night release of Faith of Angels, which is scary and awesome and exciting. But it's also the 1st day of school in Provo School District, and my kids are all gone.
Daren:They're out of the house. They're not interrupting me during a podcast.
Garrett:Perfect. So That's
Daren:why I'm all smiles today.
Garrett:I can go see a movie.
Daren:Yeah. I need to go see a movie this week. That's awesome. Very cool. How about you?
Daren:What's new in your world?
Garrett:We're doing well. We're doing well. Just staying busy. Had some great meetings this week with both Faith of Angels and the Carpenter, and, things are moving forward.
Daren:Yeah. I gotta say, like, yesterday, we had a call with the whole team, and the team has expanded since last week's call. And it was like, oh, they all know what they're doing. Not that I doubted that, but, like, in a previous episode, we were talking about how things are hard sometimes. And Yeah.
Daren:Just to see everybody, like, full cylinder, like, going at it and saying this is happening. This is happening. Like, I I don't think I said anything in yesterday's meeting because I was just so impressed with, wow. Everything is going the way we hoped it would, that we expected it would, that they said it would. And they have a plan.
Daren:And trusting in the team has been really a fun thing to experience this week.
Garrett:I felt the same way. I felt like these past, you know, 4 weeks have been, different meetings and kind of building the team and getting getting up to speed and building trying to build a little momentum. But yesterday's meeting, where everybody was I mean, we were essentially reporting on what we had done and and, our jobs. And it felt like the 2nd week of pre production, when everybody's been hired and you're starting to go, and then it gets more and more exciting because now we'll start to see results. In fact, just this morning I was on and approving the press release.
Garrett:It's gonna go out this week to all the news outlets about faith of angels and coming to theaters. And then we've also have a group sales list that, you know, they they've put together a a list of all of the potential organizations within proximity to theaters where we're releasing. And, there's somebody who has the assignment to reach out to these organizations and see if they would wanna participate in a group screening. So there's a lot of work being done and, the momentum is building, and it was cool to see.
Daren:Yeah. Super cool. I like that analogy that it feels like the 2nd week. And so for time wise, like, for people that are wanting to follow in our footsteps a little bit here, we're 4 weeks out from the Utah limited release, but we're 6 weeks out from the, you know, more broader it's not quite a national release or nationwide release, but where the movie is available in many, many more states and cities. And that's everyone has said, like, that's the sweet spot.
Daren:6 to 8 weeks out is, like, if you do it earlier than that, you might peak before your your weekend release, and you don't want people to forget about your movie. You want all the momentum to be building leading up to that opening weekend, like we've talked about, so that we can have a really high per screen average. And so everybody's running the play, and it's really fun to watch. So been fun.
Garrett:So let's talk about, box office real quick before we get into our guest, which I'm excited to get into our guest because it's a it's a friend of mine that, we're fun to talk to. Okay. Box office. Top ten of the weekend. This was, It Ends With Us came out.
Garrett:It opened at number 2.
Daren:Yeah. Way to go. What a power couple. You got Ryan and Blake opening 1 and 2. He had to beat her out.
Daren:55,000,000 for Deadpool and 50,000,000 for It Ends With Us. But the big story there is that It Ends With Us beat the per screen average of Deadpool. They're 13,800 per screen, and Deadpool is 12,000. They're just on more screens still. But way to go, guys.
Daren:Like, they've made a lot of money and beat all the projections that everybody was putting out there. I think they were saying 20 to 25, and it, like, doubled it. So way to go. They know how to market movies, those 2.
Garrett:Yeah. Blake and and, Ryan. And then if we we look down at our model, so there's an this is interesting. The Cuckoo is, I guess, looks like a horror movie, released on 1500 screens. It came in at number 9 with 3,000,000.
Garrett:So if we half that, you know, we're at 600 screen. Well, if we yeah. More than half it. But, our release is 600 screens. Our goal is, you know, 1.2 to break into the top 10.
Garrett:If we had released on this weekend, we would not break into the top 10. Yeah. Which is in kind of interesting. In fact, this is the highest average of a top 10 or whatever. The highest threshold is, 3,000,000 to break into the top 10 this weekend.
Garrett:I guess, 1.9 beats long legs.
Daren:Yeah.
Garrett:But yikes.
Daren:Yeah. There's one I wanna pull up though because it's an interesting to see it. They're not quite in the top ten, so we I don't think we've talked about them yet. But in the number 11 slot, we have DD. And it's this is its 3rd week, and we wanna look at the trajectory here.
Daren:So week 1, they opened on 5 screens at an average of $57,000 per screen, made $288 or $288,000 that weekend. And then last week, they added 42 screens and still had a $14,600 per screen average. So then you look at this week, which is their 3rd weekend in theaters. Again, they're they're number 11 doing 645,000 this weekend, but they added another 153 screens. So they're now at 200 screens, and they've done 1,600,000 so far.
Daren:So that really does track closer to what we're trying to do with Faith of Angels. We're opening a little wider than 5 screens, but that's the goal. It's, like, open on a certain number of screens in Utah and then expand to, like, that 200, 300 range and maintain the per screen average. Did you look at theirs? Even though they added a 153 screens, they're still at $3,000 per screen average.
Daren:They are the 4th highest per screen average this weekend. So pretty crazy. I should say 5th highest because Sing Sing came out at number 14, and that's a $58100 per screen average. But still, like, the model, it looks like Sing Sing is actually running that same play. They started on, like, 8 screens, and now they're at 39 screens, and they'll probably go wider, you know, even further.
Daren:So it's exciting to see even the bigger players like Focus Features and a 24 kinda doing the same thing as we're gonna be doing.
Garrett:Yeah. Different models. It's cool. It's fun. I could get lost.
Garrett:I mean, we could do a whole 24 hour podcast series on, like, analyzing numbers, but then you get into being a projectionist.
Daren:Yeah. We've certainly done it together, spent hours diving into spreadsheets and looking at numbers. So we we owe the audience a a dedicated numbers episode, but that'll that'll come later. We're too focused on the release right to do that.
Garrett:Do that.
Daren:Well, awesome. I'm excited to meet our guest today. We have Desmond joining us. He's a South African born filmmaker. Is he living in the US now?
Garrett:Who's in the US? We met at a film festival, a little bit ago where I was screening The Carpenter, and he was screening one of his films. And, just immediately hit it off, and so I'm so excited to bring him on the podcast today.
Daren:Awesome. Let's do it. Hey, indie filmmakers and movie lovers. This show is sponsored by Purdy Distribution. Since 2011, they've been bringing incredible independent films to theaters, like Garrett Batty's The Saratov Approach, TC Christianson's Love Kennedy, and McClain Nelson's Once I Was A Beehive.
Daren:They've worked with top notch directors like Mitch Davis and Mark Goodman, specializing in family, faith based, and funny films. This year alone, they've released hits with JK Studios like Go West and Villains Inc, and have even branched out internationally with films shot in South Africa and Japan. Purdy Distribution works closely with indie filmmakers designing personalized distribution plans whether it's a theatrical release or straight to streaming on platforms like Amazon, Itunes, Google, and more. If you have a PG or PG 13 film ready for the world, think about reaching out to Purdy Distribution. They're approachable and knowledgeable, ready to help you visualize your film's distribution.
Daren:Even if your film isn't fully polished, they can offer valuable guidance. Plus, if you need that crucial distribution piece for investor packages, Purdy Distribution can provide a letter of intent to distribute, helping you secure funding without locking you into a contract. Mark your calendars for Purdy Distributions upcoming releases, Tokyo Cowboy on August 30th, the digital release of Thabo and the Rhino Case on September 1st, Faith of Angels in theaters on September 12th, Villains Inc on Amazon and Itunes on October 1st, and The Carpenter on November 1st. To stay updated on these releases and more, sign up for their newsletter at purdiedistribution.com. That's purdiedistribution.com.
Daren:Now back to the show.
Garrett:Desmond Denton, how are you? Welcome.
Desmond:Doing good. Thanks so much for inviting me.
Garrett:Thank you for being here. It's great to see you and, and, it's great to reconnect. I was telling Darren earlier that we you and I met at a film festival back in, Washington DC. Is that right?
Desmond:That's correct. Yeah.
Garrett:At the, Museum of the Bible. A couple of years ago, I was playing the carpenter and, Desmond had a film there, 1 or 2 films there.
Desmond:Yeah. Two short films of the festival.
Garrett:And it was just kind of that immediate, kind of connection, like, oh, let's go to lunch. We chatted and and being that Desmond's from South Africa, we had filmed the carpenter in South Africa. We knew, many of the similar, you know, film related people out there, and so it was great to catch up. So thank you for being here. Yeah.
Garrett:Thank you. Can you talk to us a little bit about so our podcast, obviously, Darren and I talk about we're we're releasing these 2 movies in the next 6 months. Now it's 1 month 3 months. Is that right there?
Daren:Don't ask me. I don't wanna I don't wanna know.
Garrett:It's coming up. It's probably by the time you hear this, it's one of them probably released.
Daren:Technically, we're a month out from the Friday, September 13th. It's it's August 13th as we're recording this, so we're a month away.
Desmond:We're a month out.
Garrett:Yeah. So but what so we talk about that weekly, and then we bring in guests and, to talk about their experiences in film producing or film distribution. And I've been following you, and I've just been fascinated that you are a, you know, a South African filmmaker, but you're you're here in the states and continue to create, produce films that, you know, that were in the festival that we met at. And then a year later, I was at the Zions Indie Film Fest, and I I'm a I'm a board member there, and I see a film from you and your name on there. I thought, wow.
Garrett:What a small world. And and you need to just put out incredible content. Can you can you just give us an introduction real quick on kinda who you are and what you do, and then I'd love to talk to you about producing and some of the challenges. Yeah.
Desmond:So as I mentioned, my name is Desmond Den. Originally born in South Africa, Cape Town, been in a lot of countries making films, but always been really passionate about telling stories and finding really creative ways to do it. The one thing that you guys probably have experienced in South Africa, we've we've got the opportunity of of we've learned the hard way of of making the dollar stretch. So I've worked on commercial big budget commercial films as well as indie films, and I've I've really learned the art of, let's call it, problem solving. And I really believe, like, making films, it it's the better you can solve problems, the better filmmaker you are, specifically producer.
Desmond:So from the point where you have a story idea to getting it funded, to actually getting people to see it. So my journey over the last 23 years has really been an exciting journey with a lot of learning, a lot of highs, and a lot of incredible people that I've I've gotten the opportunity to work with throughout this time.
Daren:That's amazing. Just for my sake, do you consider yourself more a director, a producer, a writer, all 3? Like, where do you sit?
Desmond:It's a combination. And I must say, like, so my background, I've studied masters in fine arts. I've worked on film sets before I could study it. So even in school, was no university in South Africa where you could study film at that stage, so I was literally working as a runner on sets, worked my way up till eventually there was a film school I enrolled the moment that opened up. I would say, like, definitely producing, directing, I've directed a lot of commercials, big part of my background is commercials and it's, production straight for TV.
Desmond:I've done a lot of Afrikaans films where I've either worked as producer, production manager, or on the other side directing. I like the combination. I don't necessarily always like doing the 2 together. So I might take a film from from Garrett and say, I love this. This is great.
Desmond:And I feel like he's the guy to tell the story, and I love being able to kind of look at it from a creative problem solving business side, and then on the other side where I can completely put myself as a person who just focus on story when I direct. So I kind of split my time between the 2. Some stories I love just working with great great filmmakers saying, like, I love this story. I'm not necessarily the guy to tell it, but I really can see this is a really good story
Garrett:to sell.
Daren:I I totally vibe with that. The idea of, like, a director producer, it's like, they better have another producer there because the idea of trying to do both on a film set is unrealistic, I think.
Garrett:Yeah. That's the model we've kind of, Darren and I have done these past 2 films where I've had the story and kind of taken it to a certain point and said, look, I need to focus on directing. Darren, please rescue me. And it's worked out. You are currently working on a a film or a project that you showed me the book a while ago.
Garrett:Yeah. And now can you do do you wanna talk a little bit about that?
Desmond:Yeah. Yeah. It's a exciting story. So while we were still in South Africa before we, moved over to the States, we started doing research because I love being inspired and I know you guys also do, stories inspired by real, real events. So in South Africa in 1969, there was the biggest earthquake that ever happened in South Africa and what was interesting about it, this wasn't a time that we still had apartheid to segregation.
Desmond:I grew up in a time that I literally witnessed the miracle of what we call the rainbow nation, of how a country on the edge of civil war came together and said let's stand united under a flag and I saw that firsthand. So it was interesting to do research on a story of how a community came together, where they were all covered in dust and recovering, trying to understand what's going on because it's not a country that is prone to earthquakes. So we did research first just as a concept, a documentary, and we realized this is a really good story to develop. And then we decided to do a book with it. I don't normally do books, but we felt like this is a story because it's so significant historically.
Desmond:We decided to do a storybook on it, got released in the US, out at a lot of book shops including Barnes and Noble. And then in my language, Afrikaans, it's set out in South Africa through different, company. Yeah. Now we're working on it as a TV series as well as feature film.
Garrett:So as a as a producer, I mean, what you've described in the in the last answer, hasn't been, like, day to day, I'm on set solving problems. And yet you're it seems like you're laying this foundation or participating in this story and sort of stewarding that story into different mediums.
Desmond:Yeah. That's I think it's if you if you link it to problem solving so before because I've been I've when I studied film, I did a lot of AD, I did a lot of production management coming up into it, so I understand the onset, I always call it about, I know how the running circus work, and I've been part of it for so long that if I don't see the trucks, I don't see them, it's kinda feels strange, but at a certain stage before I came to the States, I had the opportunity to say, wow, now I wanna zone in only on the stories I want to tell, so instead of, like, literally backing up and every time going with the circus, I was able to step back and say, okay, well, I'm only gonna make so many films in my life, which is the films I really wanna make, and that's a completely different story. So then you look at problem solving from a perspective of the films you wanna tell, how you're gonna get it funded, how you're gonna get it out, and specifically jumping from South Africa where I know the TV industry really well, where I know the cinema groups who we produced for, to coming to a new continent where it's a different culture, although it's English, it's different things that people look for in an American film than in comparison to a South African African film.
Desmond:So, like, how do you create stories that can bridge, and I think we're in an exciting time where it can happen. You can create a Jewish story that literally goes across the world. You can create a story of a interesting African culture that people wanna watch and they're exciting, but it's it's finding the right ways of telling that story so people can relate.
Garrett:What do you think are some of the, I guess, challenges of making that story reach different audiences or or, you know, taking it out that way in a story and making it play at an American festival?
Desmond:Yeah. I think getting it to play at a festival is not so difficult. It's because I've had a lot of success with South African, even Afrikaans films, playing in America, playing really well in Europe. The there's always you say like, when you do a film, I love asking the question and it sounds strange, but the why factor is always really important. So if you're making a film to win awards, it's a different film.
Desmond:If you're making a film to do, well, commercially, so you wanna make money, it's a different film. Like, why do you make this film? And so for this one, like, I'm a big fan of fine art. So when we looked at the story, like the visuals we're creating, we're really looking at, like, some of the Rembrandt styles of painting, some of the old Dutch style of filmmaking. So it's really like a work of art that is very touching in a in a way that although you have an earthquake, you can easily create a spectacle.
Desmond:And I love the it's like onset real stunts and things like that. We have a lot of that that is going into it. So it's easy to make a film that people go like, oh, they wanna see the earthquake. They wanna see and you do wanna have that.
Garrett:Sure.
Desmond:But then you can go one level deeper in regards to how do you tell the stories, so things like names. It's really easy to say a few names and people will not even be able to pronounce it. Something like Meriki or Ignatius. Like, Americans will struggle. You guys can try and say nauseous.
Garrett:Yeah. What is it? Ig Ignatius?
Desmond:You got it. Garrett, you've got some
Garrett:I mean, I've got some sun average in me. That's awesome.
Desmond:Yeah. But it's the it's things like that. So when you take a story and you package it for international story, you specifically look at, okay, I want to reach, for example, the faith based or I wanna reach the Hallmark or I wanna reach you kind of very specifically look at who's the people he's talking to, what is interesting to them, in the making. And that's why I like having the producing directing ad on early because in the way that you treat it, in the way that you film it, in the way that you make the behind the scenes, you get to have all those elements early on instead of afterwards you've made the film, now you have to throw together some behind the scenes, now you have to and that's the way we learn. I think indie filmmaking, working on the two sides really taught me this is the way it's done when you have money, and this is the way that you do it, and it takes very long when you don't have money.
Garrett:Yeah. And it sounds like from what you're saying, the principles are still the same. I mean, whether you have money or not, you are starting saying, who is my audience for this story? And how do I best structure it? Whether I start with a book, whether I start with, you know, publishing the real newspaper articles, you know, just really kinda start building that audience that audience interest in the story.
Garrett:But whether you have, you know, a $100,000,000 to market or you're kinda bootstrapping the whole thing, the principle is the same that you have to build your audience.
Desmond:Yeah. And and know who you're talking to. It's not just, like, throwing out a political campaign and hoping someone sees it on YouTube. It's really, like, very specifically saying like, oh, well, I know, for example, with this film, it is people who are interested in historical dramas. It is people because it's an ensemble cast.
Desmond:It's people who like family and faith based stories. So you've got and you can go to details. You can really niche it down so much that and if I always feel if you hit that key audience, it can go to the next group. But if you miss the key audience, like, you you just have a watered down, story that you need to throw and spend a lot of ad money on to help someone watch it.
Daren:Yeah. So I'm curious because I don't know that I've heard too many indie producers, like, write a book, get a book out in the world, and then use that as a catalyst to get the movie made. So how is the book, the process of writing it, publishing it, getting it out there, how has that helped you with the film side?
Desmond:I think what it's done, and I'm very used to the scripting format, so because it's much shorter. You don't have to I'm not saying you're not spending as much time, but I feel on a book, you're kind of writing everything that's in your mind. So normally I would have my director's treatments and all those details. Here you had a book, so the format was so different. And I'm lucky to have a really creative partner, my wife, Vera, who's a very good writer.
Desmond:So it was great to have the story and then to flesh it out with someone that is outside of my own head, because it's great to have someone that can criticize and look at it. Because a lot of times as artists, we make something and kind of audience need to just take it in. In South Africa, we have a very good process with script editors who looks at it and really say like, oof, because you don't always have all the funds to make it. So you want to make sure by the time you make it, it's really, it's good. So with a book, it had that process and I loved it and you could test it with people.
Desmond:Does the book resonate? Does it sell? So it was it was great because it wasn't just us making a film saying, like, hey, there's interest in it because I say there's interest in it. The book got picked up very quickly. It's already won at I was at content last year, it won as best project in development.
Desmond:So the script has already won a few awards. So it's great to taste, because as artists, we stay very long in our own head and we believe that it's good because we think it's good. So developing it as a book was for me good from a research perspective and also now I've got feedback kind of seeing how's the book doing in the US, how's the book doing in Europe, what is the feedback I'm getting, and and also gave me a chance to write out a lot of details. So even in the visuals, I got so much more background info that would be one liners and short info for character that I actually have drawn out in the story. That's awesome.
Garrett:So now that you're at that stage, I mean, is it is the next step fundraising for the movie? Or do you presale? How does how do you approach?
Desmond:It's a combination. So for release to South Africa, it's pretty easy. Like, because you know people, you know the TV stations. We've already got the bright bridging funding for it secured. So now it's we end up I call it prepackaging.
Desmond:I'm try I'm marrying specific coproduction partners or TV stations that I feel like this is a good US release or this is a good European company to work with. We have a Dutch coproduction that we are investigating with it. So it's really seeing if you wanna make it to go beyond your own border, like, that's what I'm saying. It's like prepackaging. So, yes, it is things like presales.
Desmond:It is things such as so you don't sit with a finished product and now you have to invent, how am I going to do it? It is a longer process. Sometimes it's easier. Like, to make films is not so difficult. Like, you go out and you can make it.
Desmond:Like, you know, I've done it for long. So it's like you always itch to make the next story happen. And as artists, we find ways. Like, if you really wanna make something, you'll find a way to make it with your friends, with family, with people, with there's ways to make things happen. But I like playing the longer game.
Desmond:What I mean to that is like really thinking through understanding that I'm gonna make so many films in my life. I wanna do it really well. This is why I'm making this specific story, the message with it, the heart with it, and how I want it to feel and look and kind of the timeline I'm willing how much time I'm willing to invest in it.
Garrett:Yeah.
Desmond:So, yeah. Probably in the next, like, realistically, I'm looking at because I've got another documentary I'm finishing up, but in 2 years' time, we wanna be on set. So 2026 is the year I've put out this production.
Garrett:Okay. So we're really yeah. It is a really long game. Okay. So let me walk through that just so I can I can process it?
Garrett:We've written the book. The the event happened. It was based on a true story.
Desmond:Yeah. 69. 69. So that happened a while ago.
Garrett:Okay. Now we've written the book, gotten the story out. You have distributed the book or the book is published, and so now you have evidence that there's interest audience interest in the story. Yeah. And then now you're taking the book and and the story and the screenplay and essentially partnering with either South African television and other, you know, North American Television for rights so that they will fund or they will either fund the movie or commit to an MG so that and then bridge it.
Desmond:Basically. Yeah. And then based on it, we can do it earlier if we decide, but I don't like. I've done too many productions where, for example, we've done a lot of, let's call it facilitation jobs where, it's quick. You can quickly make a film.
Desmond:So we've done a few. I've worked on a few that came to South Africa, Shark based films, and they came out, and it's this crazy end of the world things. And and and the scripts are, you know, like, how these big crazy movies are. You read it, and and it's just you the budgets are great. They know who they're working with.
Desmond:They know their target audience. The scripts look, like, crazy. Like, no. I wouldn't say good what it's like, but they know it works for that audience. And the love that they have, for sorry.
Desmond:It's showing a message here. The love that they have, they want to do it quickly. They wanna do 10 of these films a year, and it works for that model.
Garrett:Yeah.
Desmond:I think for hour 1, I really want to do something that I feel is really, really good as a form of art in itself, and therefore, I'm kind of playing it over a slower time. I wouldn't even if I have all the money today, I would not film in less than a year.
Garrett:So there's a principle right there that we've already talked about throughout this whole podcast. If there's an arc, it's how to build an audience. Right? And what is the result of building an audience? And you're saying, those those folks that are just asking for 10 films a year, what do they have already?
Garrett:They've got an audience. Like, they know what
Desmond:They have. Yeah.
Garrett:So now they're just like, hey. We have to feed this audience some great content, which is a good spot to be in if if, yeah, if that's what we're going for.
Desmond:Yeah. If you've got the channel backing, and that's what I'm saying. When we've pitched before, produced for straight to TV, you can do 5, 6, 7 films a year because they have the mark. And that's what Netflix is doing now in South Africa, Africa, and they're doing a great job. A lot of my friends, they're producing straight for Amazon Prime and producing for, Netflix.
Desmond:And it's a great model because they speak to an audience that they know, And that's what the indie artists often don't have, even faith based. It's slowly happening with angels, it's slowly happening with things where they have the channel to speak to people. But for everybody else, you need to, every time you make a film, build that. And that's why it's great to do collaborations. It's great to work with people so your voice is bigger than just your little fan base.
Desmond:And if that's why connecting to a TV station, connecting to a charity, your NGO, Everything you add to your story makes your voice it amplifies what you're doing. What are the The TV station, if you get one to say, yes. I love it. That's that's the easy way to go, definitely.
Garrett:Yeah.
Desmond:Once you get the stamp.
Garrett:What are the compromises that you might have to make as you, you know, expand and and bring on a partner or
Desmond:Yeah. It's a lot. You have to there is you have to it's always the thing of what are you willing to compromise. So some stations that I know of, like, the moment you go that route, there's specific ideology, there's specific things they want to showcase. So you have to look at it and say, like, are you willing to compromise that?
Desmond:And I've had occasions where I said, this is the indie film completely. I don't want to compromise because it's gonna water down the message or it's gonna water down the production or and because we've done a lot of straight, like, TV based release for cinema, but it's a TV station who's involved who pre owns the rights. I've seen very strongly how they get involved in creative aspects, in cars, in so if you want to be the boss, if you wanna do it completely your own way, you're gonna struggle with working with presales, you're gonna struggle working with TV stations. If you build good friendships, connections, and you kind of serve them that they know you are a good person to work with, like you know what you're talking about, you get more leverage. You can't on the first phone go out and say, hey, this is what we're doing.
Desmond:And they're putting in the money. They they're the investors. They are the they're taking the risk on you. So I think you need to build that to a space where you can have more of a voice. Otherwise, you need to do it smaller.
Desmond:Work with local companies. Work with local tourism. I think you kind of need to decide what are you willing to compromise on your story, how much are you willing to give. And the bigger the company, a lot of times, the more you're gonna have to give.
Garrett:Yeah. Darren mentioned last, in a previous episode, is your profits equals permission. And so yeah. Until you're there and saying, hey, we've proven this before and maybe that's proof equals permission as well. It's like, yeah, we're established, we've done several films and come and partner with us and this is the way we do things, great.
Garrett:But if you're right, if it's our first time effort for an independent filmmaker saying, hey. This is the way I'm gonna do it and give me money, those roles might need to be reversed to say, how would you like me to do it with your money?
Daren:One of the smart things I think you're doing though is you're building that audience along the way, and there's another principle of the the secret or the easiest path to success is to put what you do in front of the people who already value it. Instead of making a movie that you're super passionate about and you've put all this time and effort in, and you've been thinking about it for 15 years, and then you make the movie, and then you have to go to the marketplace and try to convince people to buy it or to distribute it or to watch it or to get a ticket. Like, that's hard to convince people to get something that they'll want.
Desmond:Yeah.
Daren:So I what I love about the story you've shared is, like, you're progressively validating the project along the way, growing the audience, and that's helping you get the leverage you need to get the next group of people and the next group of people, and, ultimately, that's gonna lead to you having a big audience for this film. But you did it step by step instead of having to go, like you said, spend a lot of money to reach and convince a lot of people that this is a movie worth seeing. So smart. I love that.
Desmond:Thanks, man. Yeah. I think you learn things on the way as you make stories. And, like, I love always saying to people, if you understand your why, you can understand what success means to you. You can understand kind of like, and and it's just being honest with ourselves.
Desmond:It's a it's a industry that is very easy, specifically coming from commercial filmmaking, commercials with big brands. It's very easy to tap yourself on the shoulder and say, hey, look how great I am. But really going back in specific as faith based filmmakers saying like, why are we doing this? Whose story are we ultimately telling? And like, and it's a it's a interesting question to ask whenever you do a production to say, like, if we say, like, what is the compromises we're willing to make?
Desmond:Like, you have to start there, Like, on the story you wanna tell, the integrity of the story. And that's why we did the long process on doing the research about the people in the old age homes, the people that experienced it, in the orphanage that fell down and just getting to know those people. And that's with real life stories, but even non like, stories that you make up, there's authenticity that you can create a spectacle, you can create something amazing, but at the same time being able to tell it truthful, being able to really resonate with, like, value, and and touch people's hearts as well as obviously entertain them along the way. Yeah.
Daren:So one other question I wanted to ask you was, you know, I'm I'm sure I know of a lot of filmmakers here locally in Utah that are in that kind of commercial world or they're doing short films. They're trying to, you know, make that transition into features. So from your experience having done all of your background, what was that experience like, and what was maybe the 1 or 2 things that you feel most led to you being to transition from doing commercial work, from doing work for hire to, I'm a filmmaker. I'm in charge of my own films, and I'm doing it my my way.
Desmond:I think it it needs to be the right time. I think it's good to start with what we call proof of concepts or short films. So if you have like a we've had a a book that we've done for CBS, some of the turning point stories. He was a real person we met. We got to know his story.
Desmond:Thought it's a great feature. And we just made a proof of concept of it, first of all, like a short 5 to 10 minute, see do people love it? Like, I always say it's great to test your concepts and to be able to show it. And the better you're able to show it in the short format, the better you'll be able to get it through in a longer format. So when we do commercials, it's 30 seconds that needs to portray a whole brand, their values, and they spend a lot of money making sure that you're doing it.
Desmond:Wow. So on a film sometimes, the first time I went to cons, we told them, yeah, that's the budget that we can do it in South Africa. They asked me, how many minutes is your film? Just because like the dollar rand exchange is so big, you can make really good quantity films on a very different budget. And the crews are really good, the food is really good, the settings, but it's it's understanding when you're doing a film, doing a story.
Desmond:I love the short film format. It's not necessarily a commercial viable thing. Like, obviously, you're not gonna, yeah, you're not able to necessarily live on it on a as an extent as a commercial filmmaker, but it's a really good way to learn your skills. We were involved in what's called the 48 Hour Film Festival a little while before we came to US. So I've been doing filmmaking for a long time, and I thought, like, it's a great challenge.
Desmond:And at that stage, the 4 k cameras just came out. And the the idea with 48 hours is basically you draw from a hat the line, you get to have a specific prop, and you have 48 hours to write the script, to shoot it, edit it, and deliver at the end. So we when I started that process, I was saying to some of my full filmmaker friends, I think of entering and I kind of shared with a few. And before I was done, we had, like, 36 filmmakers who all and more people wanted to get involved. I had one of the props companies saying, like, here's a truck for whatever you need because you don't know what your genre.
Desmond:We ended up pulling, like, detective noir. So you have to very quickly get everything, write everything. And we won a lot of awards, 12 nominees, and that really just comes from a background of of making films. And that short film doing it really well really led to our next project when we did our sci fi film that's coming out end of this year called Spelunk, that's the Afrikaans title. Yeah.
Desmond:That definitely sharpened my skills and the filmmakers I wanted and a lot of the people who worked on that worked with me for years when I said to them, let's do it. They were up for the challenge because I built that repertoire, that relationships. And the props company, when I went to them, they said, yeah, come take what you need. You don't need to pay. You've worked with us.
Desmond:You've put so many clients. So it's really I definitely feel it's relations, like serving other filmmakers. When I was working as an AD on another feature film for a person, when the time came and I made my first feature, a lot of those people were working with me and it's it's it's and that's what I'm saying. I really believe in the long game. It's serving people, it's serving God, it's like understanding your why.
Desmond:Then by the time your opportunity comes, I feel you you've done your due service, to to allow you to tell the story because you've told other people's stories. Amazing.
Garrett:Desmond, it's easy to easy to see why you're continuing to succeed at that, what you do. It's you seem like you you have this anchor and grounded, and you're relentless at continuing to tell stories. That's, it's cool cool to see that. We haven't talked a little bit of, at this podcast on this podcast very much about film markets, but you've had experience, you know, going to a film market and either presenting there or pitching or just seeing what there is. Can you just give me give us a brief overview of what what the reason is or what's a film market and and if that's beneficial for any film to consider going there?
Desmond:It's it's it's different market to market. I'll give you the examples of something such as, Cannes Film Festival. There's Disc Corp in Africa. I've been to a few different ones. I've spoken recently.
Desmond:I was at NRB where I was presenting a master class. There's different types of one and each of them have a different focus. So, of course, like the faith based ones such as NRB is very different than, for example, Khan Film Festival. But the first time I went, I was a lot younger when I went to Cannes, and I I really learned it's, you need to for example, Cannes Film Festival, it's a humbling experience going there, seeing these stars, being a little bit, like, dazed out by all that you see. And it's very easy to feel lost because there's so much, so many filmmakers, even running, trying to sell, so many people trying to saying, hey, here's my story, running to TV stations.
Desmond:What I found that for me worked is having specific relations. So at the event, there were specific people that I already got to know or got introduced to. So there was by the time I went to the market, I already had the meetings lined up. Otherwise, what happens, you kind of go place to place. They don't know you.
Desmond:They don't know your track record. They take your card. You don't hear from them. It's just like there's thousands of filmmakers really hungry, as bad as it sounds, to make a success. People who's willing to push in more, people with better relations, people with better funding.
Desmond:Everyone is knocking on the same door.
Garrett:Yeah. I, a lot
Desmond:of them, say, like, a market is and a lot of markets in the US I've visited feels like everyone's auditioning, but there's no show. And it sounds bad, so it's like a lot of voice artists, a lot of singers, but there's no show. So you you what happens is if you wanna get to the show, you get to see who's the makers, who's the TV stations. A lot of people presenting the TV stations at that place, they're there to sell themselves. They're there to present their title.
Desmond:They're not at that moment interested in your one. So if you're going to a market such as con, if you're going to, NRB, if you're going, this is great places to learn, to connect, to start the conversation just because everyone is there.
Garrett:Yeah.
Desmond:But if you're going there thinking, like, I'm gonna throw my film out and make quick success, that's like 1 in a 1000000, like, very few. It's like the lottery vibe. You can, but it's it's very difficult to to do it. If you're going there with the idea of I've seen these people, I'm seeing them again next year. I'm seeing, like, for example, Garrett, I've seen you at a specific festival.
Desmond:Now we on the podcast. Next time we're together on a set in South Africa. Like, it's it's a it's a long game. I really believe that. A market you have to see as part of a learning experience.
Desmond:Your first time you go to a market, it is very humbling. Yeah. Oh, well Even if you know people.
Garrett:Yeah. I mean, that was my experience going to Cannes the first time. And, you know, you're in this was it the the March du film or whatever? Yeah. The giant convention center full of rows and rows of booths.
Garrett:Each one represents a different distributor or production company or country, like a like a film commission, and you're just going booth to booth with your card or poster or DVD or whatever it is, trying to get attention. And it felt very much reminiscent of putting a movie into theaters. And you go, have I built an audience for this? Have I done my due diligence? And no, if you show up and just hope people stop what they're doing and pay attention to your movie, that's a that's a recipe for failure.
Desmond:Yeah. It's a bit like a cold call.
Garrett:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the next time I was there, I had established some relationships and say, okay, I'm gonna meet with such and such distributors. These top ten people that I've already reached out to prior to coming.
Desmond:Yeah.
Garrett:And so they're expecting me. And and just like releasing a movie to theaters, you go, hey. We're gonna release it in these top 10 theaters because we've done well there in the in the past, and now we're telling people that we're coming. So it's very much kind of a repeat, you know, repeat the process of building your audience and getting the story out there.
Desmond:Completely. Yeah.
Garrett:Fascinating. Desmond, this has been so great to to hear from you and your experience. Where can people go to find out more about what you're doing?
Desmond:Easiest is Ruthie just typing my name, surname, desendenton.com. That's the website, or they can connect with me on Instagram, Facebook. They'll see some of the work we're doing, the production, some of the documentaries that we've been busy with in the US and features. So it's really easy just to type my name, last name, and they can it'll take them to the website with a lot of information about, what we're busy with.
Garrett:You can put that link in the show notes
Daren:as well. Amazing. Thanks. It's so good to meet you, and I hope that we have future opportunities to connect. And, you know, like you said, it'd be fun to be on a set in Cape Town again.
Daren:I would I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't know about you, Garrett. But
Garrett:A 100%. Let's do it. Let's go. It'd be great to reconnect with the the film family out there. We they become dear friends of ours.
Daren:Cool. Thanks, man.
Garrett:K, man. Good to see you. Thanks for stopping by.
Daren:Oh, man. That was so cool. I'd never met or heard of Desmond before, but, like, it brought back all these pleasant memories of being out in Cape Town and everything and the accent. And, man, such a cool story.
Garrett:Yeah. It's a cool a great story and a good guy. And when we met and he'd said, you know, where'd you fill? I said, it was South Africa. We immediately connected and and, you know, dropped a bunch of names of who we both knew and had worked with and and, yeah, his immediate friendship.
Daren:Gosh. That's amazing. Yeah. It's it's making me wanna go back. My wife always reminds me, like, remember how you said you would never do that flight again ever, ever, ever?
Daren:Because it's, like, 30 hours away. I was like, yeah. But a week later, I was like, oh, I'd go back for a premiere or a premieres. I'd go film another movie there. I would just bring my family with me next time.
Garrett:Yeah. That's right. That would be it would be worth it to go again just to just to reconnect with those people.
Daren:Well, very cool. There's some thoughts that I wrote down as he was talking just that I wanted to highlight, without stepping on him and and, you know, taking his time about it. But what I loved is that he understands that the market is the market is the market. Like, you have some the movie you're making, as much as you see it as a work of art or a passion project, if you're trying to make money doing this thing called filmmaking, you've got to, at some point, put that thing you made in front of the market and see how the market responds. And if they respond poorly, meaning they don't buy tickets or don't invest in your idea or whatever it might be, then that's the wrong approach.
Daren:Right? You can't just make stuff and then hope that the market works. He's doing so much validation along the way, and I see a lot of filmmakers that I talk to that are that the question is always like, well, what about my film? How come no one's investing in my thing? How come no one's, reaching out to work on my thing?
Daren:How come my project isn't moving forward? I was like, well, put it in front of the market. Like, don't just wait for people to call you and say, hey. I heard you have a movie, and I have a $1,000,000. Do you wanna trade?
Daren:It's like, that's the that's not real. That's that's not how it works. So start with a log line and then start with a synopsis and then move to a treatment or a short version of your idea and see how the market reacts. And that's kind of the in tech or in start up land, they call it the minimum viable product, an MVP. It's like, what's the minimum viable version of your idea or your story or your film that you can put in front of the market and see if there's some validation there?
Daren:And if there's none, then maybe don't spend the next couple years and lots and lots of time and money on an idea that isn't gonna work out in the marketplace.
Garrett:Yeah. It helps you refine that idea. Oh, okay. There's none. Well, why not?
Garrett:And let's look at what's not working to refine it. When I start pitching one of my first films, you know, and and the investors responded in a certain way that was contrary to what I thought they would respond. No. It wasn't even about money. It was about the story.
Garrett:Oh, I need to revise or clarify or, yeah, pivot to make sure that, that, yeah, the market's gonna respond how we want it to. That's a great thought, Darren.
Daren:Yeah. The other thing that he said is, like, that transition from starting in commercial work and work for hire and working on other projects and that progression from that to now, you know, producing and directing the films that he wants to work on, that happens when you create value for people. And then you show that you've created value for people, and then the next level of people can go, oh, I see that you did this. That means you could probably do this for me. Right?
Daren:That's been my experience as well. Like, I was working on a TV show. I was trying to be a film producer, but I was working on a TV show reality TV show. But someone saw, because I was posting pictures and sharing that I was working on this thing, they saw that, oh, well, he just did 10 episodes of a TV show. He could probably produce a TV pilot for me.
Daren:So I was hired in between seasons to go and executive produce and produce a TV pilot that then was being shopped around town and then COVID hit, so that all died. But the fact that someone that I knew who had never hired me as a producer before saw that I'd created value over here on the TV show allowed them to trust me enough to invest money into a TV pilot and pay me, hire me to do it, and that led to other opportunities where I was then able or is then hired to produce my first movie with Amy Redford. Yeah. And so it all came from I created value over here, and I'm ready for the next step. But rarely do I see people go from I have an idea for a movie, and I've been doing very small scale commercial work.
Daren:And now I want to do a $3,000,000 feature film, and I wanna be the writer, director, and producer. That's too big of a gap, so you gotta do it step by step just like Desmond talked about how he did it.
Garrett:Yeah. Yeah. That's good. It it's cool to see him do that and and prove that it works.
Daren:Alright, Gary. We got 2 questions from our audience. Thank you all for submitting those. If you go to 3 coin pro.com/podcast, there's a form, and you can get on the email list and send over your questions. We love answering them on the podcast.
Daren:It's one of my favorite aspects of this show. So this one's for you, Garrett. How many jobs is like, is it easier to do multiple jobs on a film, or is do you recommend just trying to do one? Because you're a multi hyphenate. Right?
Daren:You're a writer, director, producer, executive producer. And every once in a while, you're an extra in your movies as well. And so, is it do you prefer that because for some reason it's easier, or does it help the project move forward? Or if someone's listening to this, would you recommend, oh, just really hone your skill in one area, and then you can expand later? Like, how do you think about that?
Garrett:Yeah. Do it all. Do it all. No. I'm I'm I'm winking as I'm saying that.
Garrett:A lot of times that that's dictated by the scale of the project, the size of the project. And, if it's something that, you know, I think every project starts out small with some sort of an idea, and then the either producer or the screenwriter has gotta has gotta propel that to the next phase. So I I think you'd as an independent filmmaker, my process, and you could be wrong, the process that I've done is, I take on whatever role I need to take on to get the project to the next phase. And, if that is producer, when it starts, that's producer. And that's why I'm producing this movie until I have the funds and money or interest, raised that I can now focus on the next phase and hand the baton off to somebody else.
Garrett:And and that's what I've done with these past 2, Darren, where, you know, we've gotten it, you know, I found money for the screenplay, and then, yeah, I guess the next phase would be to write the movie, and that's something I enjoy doing. So I'll write those scripts, and then go back to producer mode and and either hire the team that's gonna do that, and that's where you've come in so that I can then focus on directing. Yeah. Have you done That's that's been my world. I I would imagine there are lots of different ways to do it.
Daren:Yeah. I I'm actually curious that I I'm surprised I don't know this, but have you done any projects where you've just written or just directed, or have every one of your films been you as the writer, director, producer?
Garrett:I've been hired to write different different projects or either episodes, for TV. I was I was in a writer's room for a series, ran for a little bit, and I've enjoyed that. And then I've also been hired to either produce I guess hired to produce. I've been brought on as a producer, where there's a director involved and and then vice versa. I've just been hired to direct.
Garrett:I did a documentary with Jon Voigt and, Adam Abel was producing that and hired me to direct it, which was a thrill. Ryan Little shot it, who ended up shooting Faith of Angels. So Nice. Yeah. It's fun to be able to bounce between roles.
Daren:Yeah. That's really cool. And I I think my answer is the same. I'm very much a producer. I have no aspirations to be a director.
Daren:I do love writing. I've written about half a dozen scripts and TV pilots over my career. None of them have been produced yet, but I'm working to change that. But I really love the idea of hiring a writer director or hiring, someone else to touch up those or rewrite those scripts rather than be like, this is my script and it's precious and don't change a word. I would I just don't see that as being, in service of the film.
Daren:But, I love what you said in that whatever serves the movie is what you gotta do, and the more responsibility you take on, it's similar to that profit equals permission idea. It's like the more responsibility you take on, the more leverage you have, the more that you can impact the momentum and the forward progress of the project. And so a lot of times, if you're a writer and you've got a script, it that it's validated, you've put it through the ringer, and you've gotten good feedback, and you've revised it, and it's ready to go to the marketplace, but you can't get it to the next level, well, maybe you need to put on that producer hat and just take on that responsibility of, I'm gonna move this project forward instead of letting it stagnate. So I'm I'm very much in favor of writers and directors taking on the producer role with the the explicit caveat that producer is not just a a title that should be handed out. I think I've talked about this before, so I won't belabor it, but, like, my belief is that if you're a producer on the movie, you're in it for the life of the film.
Daren:And so I really am passionately, like, working on these two releases because I don't wanna just sit back and hope that they turn out well. Like, I want the movies that I have my name on as a producer to be successful, and so I'm involved in the releases of these movies. And years from now, when it's coming down to, hey. The the license for this streaming platform is is ending and you need help on that, like, yeah. I'm in it because I'm I signed up for the life of the film.
Daren:So if you're thinking that, oh, I'm gonna be a writer, sell the project to someone, they're gonna produce it, but I get a producer credits, like, well, maybe not. Maybe don't have that description.
Garrett:I think that as you're watching the end credits and there's 5 minutes of scrolling names, each with a different title, there's those titles each have a job associated with them. Those are not just, vanity titles. And so, yes, like you say, producer better produce the movie and I've had people come to me and say, hey, here's an idea, here's a thought for a movie and I wanna produce this with you. And I love that. I'm very grateful that they would want to work with me and I would say, oh, wonderful.
Garrett:What have you produced? And they go, oh, I haven't done anything. I haven't produced anything. Wonderful. Great.
Garrett:And in my mind, I say, you're not, I you're not a producer. I can't I'm not gonna produce this with you until you know what that role is and you're gonna do it. But that doesn't mean that let's not work together. But let me let me show you how to produce a movie or let's bring on a producer that can help you succeed in what you eventually want to be, which is producer.
Daren:Yeah. Love that.
Garrett:So Love that. That's a long okay. Second question that, came in is, a kind of a budget question. It says you have P and A. You said you have P and A.
Garrett:How do you handle marketing and promotions for an indie film? That's
Daren:cool. I love
Garrett:Yeah. It's man, that way to be in the right mindset. Right?
Daren:Yeah. When we've been in the thick of that, right, the last few weeks, our our time has been spent on what is the marketing for this movie. And so, you know, we've had meetings with our marketing team and and asked questions like, what about this and what about this and realizing, like, oh, we hadn't brought that up before, so we need to quickly put a plan together. Right? So what I love is that you have a budget that you've raised for the marketing, the p and a, which is prints and advertising, and marketing is kind of included in that concept of p and a.
Daren:So the letter p and then and and then the letter a. P and a.
Garrett:I've seen people write it p and a letter n a. Yeah. I was just
Daren:It's like not that. Marketing is included in that. Right? And so you've allocated money for the Utah release, and you've allocated money for the wider release of faith of angels. And just in the last week, we've had to say, okay.
Daren:Out of the Utah budget, we're gonna allocate a certain amount for billboards, for a radio presence, and then the balance can be used for digital. And I think every movie is different, so we can't say this percentage for this and this for that and this for that because, like we mentioned on the call, it's like we have an a really unique opportunity because our audience for Faith of Angels is very highly concentrated along the Wasatch Front of Utah. So let's really heavily hit that with billboards, with radio, with all those things. Whereas in other locations, other markets, it might be better spent to just do digital or just do radio. So every market's different, and every film is different.
Garrett:Yeah. I think it it is about I think the decision or the deciding factor is about how many impressions are you getting by your audience for your film. And say, okay. Hey. By social media tagging, we can get a 1,000 impressions per dollar or whatever.
Garrett:Alright? A billboard is going to cost us this much. It might generate 10 times that many impressions, but is that our target audience? In a concentrated area like Salt Lake City for a movie that about a story that took place at Salt Lake City, yes, that's a concentrated audience, and your money is spent well on billboards. If we were to throw a billboard up in the middle of, LA for this particular movie, our audience for a faith based movie isn't worth the cost of a of a billboard, and we can be Mitch.
Garrett:We're targeted. So it's about making those types of decisions. But, yes, how many impressions can we get for our dollar to to buy our intended audience.
Daren:Yeah. Well, that's an interesting conversation too. We can have another time, I think, of, like the outcome, though, is not impressions. The outcome is ticket sales. And so you Yeah.
Desmond:You can
Daren:get a little lost in the weeds on, well, if we do digital or if we do TV or if we do radio, like, some of those you can track impressions. Like, it's really easy to do that on social media and running ads. How many impressions on a billboard? Well, they can give you the statistics of, well, on a given Thursday or a weekend or a weekday, the average is this many cars drive by. But we have no idea whether they clocked it, whether they saw the billboard, whether it was on the rotation when they drove by, whether they were, you know, sipping a a drink and spilled it on themselves as they were driving by.
Daren:We don't know. And so
Garrett:Yeah.
Daren:Yes. Impressions are important, and it's a good way to kind of weigh the the options. But, ultimately, it's about ticket sales, and so we're not gonna be able to track impressions officially or super accurately with billboards. But we know based on past experience of other movies that have just done billboards and very little digital ads, they've made a lot of money. So we can go, yes.
Daren:We know they're effective. Yes. They lead to ticket sales. Yes. We're gonna do billboards.
Garrett:And I think that's why I still add on that clarifier of for our intended audience. Yeah. It's fine. So say our intended audience is ticket buyers to this movie, not just, you know, drivers that are drinking their soda at the time they billboard the beers. Exactly.
Daren:Awesome, man. Another great episode. Thanks for putting that one together. Desmond's a great find. Everybody go check him out online, and, definitely head over to 3 coinpro.com/podcast.
Daren:And guess what? I'm gonna throw in one other request. Share this podcast with a friend. If you're listening, this is episode 14, I think. Like, my goodness.
Daren:If you've been listening along, first of all, let us know, and let us know what you think about the podcast. Leave a review would be great. But if you tell someone about it, it goes a long way in helping us reach more filmmakers and help spread the gospel of independent film.
Garrett:Yeah. Thank you very much. Another great episode. Thank you, Darren.
Daren:Thank you for listening to this episode of Truly Independent. To join us on the journey, be notified of new episodes and screenings, and ask us questions about today's episode, head over to 3 coin pro.com/podcast, and put in your name and an email address. Address. If you're a fan of the show, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and be sure to share this episode with a friend. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.
Daren:Our intro and outro music is Election Time by Kjartan Evel.