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Join Christina (CC) and Denise (DeDe) on Emissaries of Renewal, a podcast that explores ethical evangelism through radical hospitality and education. Embrace God’s transformative love through Jesus Christ with us as we share inspiring stories, meaningful conversations, and valuable insights.
Hey, friends. Welcome back to Emissaries of Renewal. Cece here,
and I'm here with Deedee.
Hi, everyone. And Cece, I love being back here with you. It has been too long.
And we haven't been together on screen since the first episode,
and we're on episode nine.
Yes, it's been a wild ride. I lost hair and gained some muscle, and we have diplomas.
We do. We do. We finally made it. Yes.
So today we're doing something that grew out of our online community from the
last eight episodes, which I love.
And so throughout August, DeeDee has been sharing Wednesday and Friday reflections
about wisdom and evangelism, looking at what wisdom and scripture might have
to say about how we share the good news of Jesus.
And boy, did they respond to that. I mean, y'all really responded to that.
So, again, I know I loved reading all the feedback and all of the support that came from it.
And so some people were really excited. And some folks said,
I have never thought about wisdom and wisdom connecting it to evangelism before.
So I love that connection.
And others had some important kind of questions like, does connecting wisdom,
and evangelism water down the gospel?
Right. And so maybe are we avoiding difficult questions or conversations about
sin, salvation, Jesus, repentance, discipleship?
So there was a lot that came out of this.
Yeah, there was a lot that came out of it. And they were fair and they were
good questions. And originally,
when we were talking about this, we were just going to do kind of like the first ever solo podcast.
And I was just going to answer the questions like, you asked me this.
And so I thought I'd respond and, you know, talk a little bit about why I wrote
August like in this thematic way.
With both of our themes. because Wednesday is usually just this random kind
of spit out some ideas and like, did you know?
Or, you know, here's a food for thought. And then Friday is the one that really is thematic.
But instead, this idea kind of came to me to pull them together and still do
a kind of, did you know this about wisdom? And then have a real kind of theme on Friday about it.
And it actually this month in Matthew for Sunday in our lectionary also kind
of worked with that. And it's where I kind of got the idea of.
But then we talked really last minute. I was going to record on Saturday and
we talked, I think, Friday, either Thursday night or Friday for quite a while.
And you said, well, why don't I just interview about this?
You know, why don't I talk to you about this? Because I, you know,
I think the feedback's great and we'll do kind of an interview style.
And I said, well, that's probably a much better idea than what I was coming up with.
So we decided to have a conversation, a real conversation about this instead
of me just yammering on and, you know, doing my whole,
circle thing of how I do when I when I just talk about with myself.
And it's a better idea. We open up this space and the grace to be able to ask questions.
And in that space, we listen and we keep learning together, right?
Right, right. Which is one of the most Episcopalian things that we actually do.
If any of our listeners are Episcopalian and they know how Episcopalians work
or Anglicans work, that's how we really encourage questions and how to learn together.
And it's a better way because honestly the way you do interviewing,
is that you think of those kind of questions and you want it to become this
kind of fruitful conversation of what can we learn from each other,
and you help keep me on track,
well I'll do my best yeah and I'm sure everybody's pretty grateful for that yeah.
So before we get started, Emissary
is a Renewal. It's made possible by the Episcopal Evangelism Society.
EES has supported this podcast from the very beginning, and we are so grateful
for their support and encouragement,
and belief in innovative and ethical relational evangelism in the Episcopal Church.
And amen for that, because we are not only blessed, we are grateful for their
support and their continuing support. Yeah.
So, DeeDee, let's begin with the big question. By wisdom, why did this come
up? Why did the Holy Spirit bring this forth?
Well, like I said just a little bit ago is when I started putting this together,
I mean, our August Reflections, I did keep returning to that one thing because
it's been true to me for some time now.
Especially since our first semester at Bexley, you know, when we started Old
Testament, is I started to spend a lot of time in wisdom literature.
I found myself going back to books like Proverbs and Job.
Well, I've spent a lot of time with Job in my last few years and,
of course, Ecclesiastes, to see what it means to be faithful when things aren't
easy, when things are hard.
Because things haven't been an easy road for most people in the last several years.
So I said to self, self, if these books are so deeply concerned with how we
live our life in God's world, why don't we talk about them more?
And especially when we talk about the kind of work we do here,
like evangelism, because, again, one of the things we're doing here is trying
to take away that one idea of what evangelism is,
which is just selling,
selling Christianity.
And because we talk almost every time about how that's not what evangelism is supposed to be.
So, because I see evangelism as coming down to not just do we believe and what
we're supposed to say about it, but how do we live?
How do we treat people? How do we speak? How do we sit in the things that are
hard in this world, like grief?
How do we respond when things are unfair?
How do we continue to love God and neighbor when nothing feels neat or simple,
like put into a little package with a bow?
How do we continue to love our neighbor when sometimes it's hard to even like
them or be on the same page with them?
And how do we love God when we don't know why things are happening the way that they're happening?
Because things aren't simple, because things aren't tied in that neat little bow.
And that felt connected to our mission. Ethical evangelism is not only about
saying the right things about Jesus, it's also about becoming the kind of people
and the kind of communities whose lives make.
Who Jesus is and the love of who Jesus is real, concrete to us,
believable, maybe even sometimes tangible.
Preach, sister. Great. So, yeah, my last paper I wrote on solidarity,
which is exactly what you're sharing about and lifting up.
So it wasn't that you were looking a way to avoid the gospel,
right, and teachings of Jesus. It was that you were asking how Scripture forms
the people who are trying to share the gospel.
And that's beautiful. And yeah, and maybe make it accessible to them So it helps
them understand how To make it not only accessible to them,
And real to them and tangible to them But how to teach it to be tangible to others,
Because people, some of the feedback I would get is I never thought But, um...
You know, they would say things that they—so,
I want to be concrete when I say this. I know wisdom doesn't replace Jesus.
It doesn't replace the cross, the resurrection.
You know, if you do, you know, all the sacraments or even a couple of them,
you know, like Episcopalians say, you know, there's two sacraments wrapped in seven.
Or justice or your community it doesn't erase those hard conversations but it
does form us into people who can have those conversations,
and people notice those connections,
and yeah go ahead.
Yeah, I love how the relationship building, right? And being at one minute in
community with one another and building off of that. And it seems that people
notice, they notice this connection, right? Yeah.
And that's why I would get questions or answers. Some of their feedback was
just simply, I never thought about it that way.
And that makes sense to how I'm trying to live or build a way to live in this world.
Because a lot of people are rediscovering, maybe not a religion,
but they're rediscovering a faith in humanity and maybe a faith in Christianity.
They don't maybe name it that way, but they're naming it as living like Christ.
And if you really think back to to,
the first century it wasn't necessarily them you know saying things like i'm
becoming christian or i've been saved you know i'm born again or anything like
that what what did they talk about who they were,
they talked about how it was the way how,
you know they were followers of the nazarene you know they literally called
themselves the people of the way.
And what they were talking about is, you know, because they were still trying
to figure out how to be Jewish and how to be Christian or followers of Jesus at the same time.
So it's a really basic way to understand what Christ meant for us.
It's, you know, this past Sunday, um,
you know, the lectionary, I don't
know if it was one of your Sundays to preach or not, but it was mine.
And, you know, the question was literally, who do you say that I am?
And, you know, we're in Matthew right now, and this is an answer to that.
And it can come from the wisdom of that, you know, very much so in my mind.
Yes, and that can be living through this and living in it.
Is something that we're tasked as followers of the way to be in that walk,
that journey, right? To gain wisdom.
And every day is a new breath of knowledge,
and connection with God and with Jesus' teachings to help us be more together,
right? To be connected more so together.
And that's gaining wisdom, right?
I love that. um so so you use the word wisdom and uh,
the the biggest thing that i've learned through my journey so far and i'm still
learning right life is this is um,
uh there was a former bishop that preached this past sunday at all saints and
um i said where did you grow up and he said This guy's 93, Bishop John Corton.
And he says, well, I'm still growing.
I'm still growing up. And it was just such a beautiful...
Beautiful moment there, right? That he is 93, retired bishop,
and he's still growing. He's still gaining wisdom, right? And so it was just
such a beautiful moment to share with this soul.
And so you use the word wisdom. And what exactly are you talking about?
What do you mean by that, right?
Yeah, see, that's a good question.
I think in our context, specifically, like when we're talking about how do you
use wisdom to grow and to learn the wisdom we need to go out there and spread the good news, right?
Which is, whether we know it or not, and this is something we preach on all
the time, is that's what part of discipleship is, is how do we learn the good news, right?
And so when I talk about wisdom, I am, I think, primarily talking about,
the biblical wisdom tradition because we can grow wise even as a secular,
community even if you claim to be just secular i think you can learn a lot from
jesus and funnily enough after this was after the thematics of,
um august was written and everything i ran across an article just the other day,
from Dr.
Levine, Amy Jill Levine, because she just became like one of,
was added to the board of the Catholic Association.
And she's been getting really negative comments about that, not only from,
and for those that don't know her, she's one of the top Christology scholars
that we have in the modern community.
And she's Jewish.
But she's always taught in both Jewish and Christian ways.
In circles, and often in Catholic circles. She's one of the top interpreters
and teachers that you'll often see in the list of Bibles.
She works on translations and interpretations, and often in the New Testament.
She's a New Testament scholar as well as an Old Testament. And,
I use her context all the time She's a wonderful teacher.
And she was saying some of these negative comments She decided to address they
had gotten so bad And she didn't even realize how bad they were
And it was actually her communities that follow her That finally said,
you should really address this, AJ And,
so she did,
and she was getting pushback from the Catholic communities.
She was getting pushback from Protestant communities. She was getting pushback
from her communities as a faithful Jew.
And one of the things she talked about, she said, yes, Jesus isn't my Messiah,
but I've learned so much wisdom from him.
As you know a prophet As you know these things And I thought she can see that,
No we don't have the faith Same faith belief And traditions.
We respect her as somebody who teaches his wisdom, accurately, by the way.
And one of the things she fights is that a lot of, without knowing that they
are, is a lot of Protestants and Catholic Christians and Orthodox Christians,
can be very anti-Semitic in how they teach, and they don't realize that they are.
And so that's something she fights, she tries to teach us.
And she's not bitter or angry about it She's just showing us That that's not
how Because he was a practicing Jew And there's a lot of that In how he teaches us And,
So she goes this is all I'm doing,
This is how I'm teaching This is what he really meant And so she's teaching
us His wisdom through that And she recognizes How wise he is And I thought well,
This is what we should be incorporating into the core wisdom books that we use as well.
Because, frankly, he knew them well, you know, because he used them to teach
us, you know, in the common error when he was walking the earth.
So you know in our context I did specifically use for the themes those three
specific books Proverbs, Job, and Ecclesiastes,
as the core wisdom books because that's what you know I came up with but we
know that there you know are two more for a lot of faiths we have Psalms and the Song of Solomon,
for some faiths like Orthodox, Catholic, and some Protestants like us, the Episcopal faith,
we would add two more.
We would add Sirach, and we would add the wisdom of Solomon.
So some have five, some have seven.
That's just something contextual that I want to throw out there.
But for this conversation specifically that I had in the themes,
it was Proverbs, Job, and Ecclesiastes.
And I use those specifically because they gave us those three very different
ways of asking how to live well. Like they had specific ideas on those.
I think Proverbs gave us like these three, these kind of short, memorable, easy ways.
And they're practical ways of saying how to deal how to use our speech about,
family about self-control and.
A wisdom for daily life. Job, you know, is very specific about the practical kind of formulas.
You know, a very righteous man who suffers terribly.
So we get the practical ways from of how to deal with evil and suffering or
what we call theodicy in more religious circles.
He has friends that are constantly trying to explain why this is happening to
him and what's the reason that it's happening to him because they want the formula,
which is a very common thing that we have,
especially in the modern world, is we need a scientific answer for everything.
They want it to make sense, right? You have to give me a specific answer as
to why this is happening.
And it's Job, the one who's actually suffering, that says, you know,
it's a lot more complex than that.
It's not that simple. And in all honesty, even in science, very often,
you know, a doctor will tell you it's more complex than that.
It's not that simple. There isn't a straightforward answer why this is happening.
But we think there should be. So that really teaches us a lesson from,
you know, thousands of years ago. Job was already saying this.
And then you have Ecclesiastes, which is that life is fleeting.
And I think it's something that still is effective today. I mean, the days may be long.
But the years are short. Life is out of our control.
It is above our pay grade, what happens to us a lot.
Because there will be bad people who prosper, and there will be good people who suffer.
And sometimes life is very beautiful, and sometimes it is very painful.
And sometimes all of that happens at one time, you know?
So there is no controlling that. And Ecclesiastes, Basically,
you're looking at a book that tells you, you know, it is what it is.
Right? You know, that's all we got. So, but it talks about why it's like that.
It gives us a bit of wisdom as to how we really should handle it.
So, basically, so Proverbs helps us with the daily choices.
And then Job tells us the formulas do not always work.
And ecclesiastes tells us it tells us that we are not in control of everything,
and so those are three concepts of like just make us in not,
be comfortable living in 2026 right,
right right or you know just some we're familiar with those right yeah you know
we already you know in modern times we're like so they're talking about exactly
what i'm living through right now,
thousands of years ago, these guys were going through the same, you know,
same thing, different day kind of thing, 6,000 years ago. And yeah, right.
That was like my biggest thing. You've heard this before when I got to seminary.
I was like, what? This is like Groundhog Day for 6,000 years.
Can't we just like get it together? Come on, people.
Yes, you said that all the time. And I was like, you need to read the wisdom books, right?
And that's the thing. And sometimes it's comforting. And sometimes that's like,
how haven't we fixed this yet? Right? What's the purpose of this?
Why does this still keep happening? Why is this still a problem?
Um, so there's this like weird kind of deja vu that keeps happening and they're like, why?
And it's so, and it's always so relevant though, right? It does.
That's why wisdom, right? The deep connection of yearning for wisdom and accepting
the fact that wisdom will come.
And that's been the biggest thing that I've learned in my great old age,
um, in my forties, finally, like, you know, 20s and 30s, you're just like,
ah, what's going on? And then 40s, you're like, oh, wisdom.
That's why. And you kind of sit in that ease, in that comfort.
Granted, I was a slow learner, but...
Girl, we all are. And I'm older. I'm like 10 years older than you.
And so it's so relevant, right, for people that are living in their faith right now, right?
It is. And again, that's why I come back to it so often.
And it's also, we live in a world, and here's the thing is, I don't think this
is all that different, but it does seem sped up for people nowadays is we live
in a world that wants quick answers,
i don't want to wait yeah for it to come in its own time um we want a three-step
solution to everything we want to know what to say what to do and how things are going to work out,
but wisdom literature tells us something different doesn't it it's slow down
pay attention. Be honest.
And guess what, girly? It's above your paid grade. You are not God. Yep.
You know, that was one of the first lessons I learned when I was done deconstructing
and I really came back to my faith. And that took me decades.
You know, I grew up a Christian from a very young age.
And yet it never lost my faith or my spark for being a Christian.
And it was just finding a way to practice that made sense to me is what I was
always deconstructing from, was that harmful theology and the way to practice a proper theology.
And again, slow learner. So it took me a while.
So still your words there. But when I did, one of the things that really stuck
with me was somebody telling me what it is for them that is the job here that you're supposed to do.
And one of the things that they said to me, a good friend of mine,
said, well, I don't know.
And it was around what happens What we're supposed to be doing here And what
heaven is supposed to be like,
Because I grew up in a dispensational belief system And he said,
well, I'm not in charge of that,
I'm not in charge of who's on the list I'm not in charge of the after party,
All of that's above my pay grade I do know what I am in charge of And this is how it works,
And it made the most sense to me And it has changed my perspective so much That
I was able to build from there Dealing with the trauma,
Of that brimstone and hellfire And that being poor wisdom,
Of what happens next,
Led me to true wisdom And.
And realizing that I am not God and that there is just absolutely nothing I can do about any of that.
It's not up for me. And when we play God, we try to play God.
It just doesn't work out. Too often.
And so many arenas and letting go of that one small part of it helped me see the rest of it.
And that's what I see as actual good news.
The fact that I'm not God and that there's nothing that I'm doing here that
outside of my job description that helps with that at all. Right.
If that made sense. Yeah. And not praying for my will, but God's will and getting
out of the way. Right. Jesus, take the wheel.
Man, he's been taking my wheel for a long time because. I am a mess.
Yeah, sometimes I want to jerk back that wheel.
Yeah, but too often you're like, you don't know where you're going.
Come here. And it always works out badly when you do that. Yeah.
So why is that? Why is it good news? Because I think it lets us stop pretending.
It lets us stop acting like we...
That we can't explain everything, every tragedy, because that's what we want to do, isn't it?
Right. When somebody questions it, and even when, especially when they question it, negative.
Mm-hmm. When they're dissing God, right? So when we want to explain away every
tragedy, every diagnosis, every broken relationship, every injustice, every loss,
we can say man I don't know why this is happening I don't know the answer you
know comfortable in that it's a there's a comfort in the silence we can give them,
but you but what you can say is I am here God is here and you don't you're not
carrying this alone you don't have to do that please you know let me um,
and that and here's what people don't maybe know or feel like they should know
is that's a deeply christian witness right,
um you are witnessing in that moment.
So you've said that Proverbs 18, 13, it's become really, really important to you.
Yeah. Because you're thinking about how wisdom and evangelism,
right? How that's tied in. So can you talk about that?
Yeah, yeah. Proverbs 18, 13 says, if one gives answer before hearing, it is folly and shame.
And that, speak on it. That is a word.
It's a word for me, it's a word for the church, and it is a word for social media, right?
It's a word every time we feel pressure to respond before we really understand what someone is saying.
I am one of those people that others often come to They come with a question, a problem,
You're one of those now too That's the vocation we chose, right, Cece?
So when they have a problem, they have a story Or something they're carrying,
There can be this pressure to have the answer.
But wisdom, one thing wisdom does is it that reminds us that our job is not to fix that person.
Our job is to listen to that person.
And you're, that's just so powerful. And so you're connecting that directly to ethical evangelism.
I'm seeing like, we should be having like t-shirts and bumper stickers made, right?
Like hello but when's the last time people have like picked up proverbs,
it's been a while for me i mean people think well if people think proverbs they
think of proverbs 31 woman i'm a proverbs 31 woman or something like that you
know because some people have made that like a fancy tagline but,
you take proverbs seriously there's
some really great things said in there that you can really look to um,
everyday ethical evangelism has to begin with hearing people you know it's in
our you know seek listen as they speak before you act you know um.
The person in front of you should never be a project. And when people think
of evangelism, that's what they think we're seeing.
A target. Right?
They're not a problem we're supposed to solve.
You know? There's someone we should
listen to, and if they need help with something, they'll let us know.
You know, what they are is they're wonderfully made beloved child of God.
They have a story. They have a body. They have wounds, maybe.
And they have hopes. They have wisdom to share with us.
And more importantly, they have an agency of their own.
So if we're listening only long enough to find an opening so we can deliver
a message, you know, we're listening to respond, then that's not listening.
And I really believe that people can feel that. They can sense when you're not
genuinely there with them. Right.
And they can tell all of that. They see insincerity. They can feel insincerity.
And while wisdom doesn't tell us to be silent about Jesus, it does teach us,
about Jesus and about that humility that we're supposed to have.
It does, but it teaches us how to approach it in a way that,
would be acceptable. It teaches us to do it the way Jesus would do it, live like Jesus.
So that's such a good distinction. It's not silent. It's not scared.
We're not scared to name Jesus, but to be humble and to be relational and actually
attentive to the person in front of you.
And we hear this time and time again about how to be a better leader,
a better Christian, a better friend, a better spouse, right?
Is to stop thinking about what you must be projecting or what you want to think
about a response but being present in that moment and having that connection
that deep connection that relational connection.
So let's let's talk about job and ecclesiastes okay i think that it's where
it gets really pastoral and so how those books change the way that we think about evangelism.
Well, I think they definitely open a pathway to the fact that they refuse easy answers.
So that's where some of your skills really need to come in.
That's where, you know, we sweat through those scenarios that we had to learn in pastoring class.
Yes. Or chaplaincy, you know, those types of things.
Um, because Job deals with, um, enormous loss and suffering.
Um, you know, and his friends keep trying to explain it. They are convinced
that if Job is suffering, then he must have done something really wrong. What sin did you commit?
Mm-hmm. Kind of thing. How many times have Christian heard that as an answer
to when they've gone to, um, any kind of ministerial person, right?
They want to connect it to, they want to make it a moral equation. Let's put it that way.
And I think we do that way too often.
What did you do to deserve this? Like it's something that, you know,
you have to have done something terrible for something terrible to have happened to you, right?
Because how often do you hear from the person who suffered, I don't know what I did to deserve this.
Well, that came from somewhere. Somebody's taught them that. Right. Right. Yeah.
And I think even if you don't believe that, we sometimes still put out in our
shallow explanations to them that we kind of still believe that.
Or we're still putting off that aura.
We can say things like, everything happens for a reason. Or God won't give you,
more than you can handle.
If you just had enough faith. And I'm sorry, where is that in the Bible?
Yeah, it's a pop-out. That's in the Bible. It's a pop-out.
Absolutely. That's a great way to put it. And I want to be gentle when I'm saying these things.
Because I know people often say these things because they don't know what else to say.
Right. That's what we've taught. You know, these type of platitudes.
The same with you know somebody that they're in a better place they're no longer
suffering i mean even people who are the ones that are suffering will say those
things they just lost the love of their life and they're saying,
but he's in a better place i'm just glad he's not suffering anymore because
they don't know what to say,
yeah it's hurtful right right and but it can be really hurtful without even
realizing that you're causing yourself harm when you say that or you're causing
somebody harm when you say that.
And it's not intentional.
And very often you can see the intent behind it and you're fine and you move off.
But it doesn't mean that, you know, that sometimes it doesn't still sting and
you're adding to your own harm or you're adding to somebody's harm.
But it also doesn't mean that other people don't see the intent.
And because Sometimes, and again, this is a personal experience,
is a friend of mine, we both lost somebody, which was unexpected, and she was young.
This person was actually a bridesmaid for Scott and I.
And then the other one was just a good friend that had been worked together
with her forever, and we lost her young to an illness. She went septic from
pneumonia, and we lost her.
We saw each other at the funeral, and we just went up to each other and hugged.
And then she's like, how are you doing? And I said, I'm not doing well.
And she's like, neither am I. And guess what?
This just sucks.
And I thought, I'm glad you said that.
She's like, there's no other thing to say about this. This is terrible. This just sucks.
And I said, that is the best thing anybody has ever said to me at a funeral. Because that is it.
There are no good words for it it's just bad,
yeah and some of these words and slogans is just we dismiss people right and those platitudes yeah,
and we just make suffering sound so simple and we just water it down or we just
try to like you know brush it off or it's because we are uncomfortable with
sitting in that space right instead of making the invitation to,
join or to invite to be sitting in that space.
And Job does a great job of that, I think. I think Job gives us the permission
to say, this is awful, and I don't understand why I am here.
You want to give me an answer to that, God? Yes.
Of course, Dolly Parton has to say something about that. Yes.
Hey, Dolly.
So, yeah, you're mentioning that you're talking about Ecclesiastes and Job and
how Job gives you permission to kind of say those things.
And Ecclesiastes says, yes, life is complicated. Yes, there are things that we cannot control.
But there's also beauty in the grief and sharing in that space,
that same space that you did with your friend, right? Right.
And if our evangelism, it works when when life is easy, then it's not very good news.
Right. But then we can all offer someone what we could offer someone is to follow
Jesus and then everything will make sense. Then we are not telling the truth either.
But what we can say is you can bring your whole self to God and bring the grief,
the anger, the questions, the doubt, the exhaustion, the hope.
And to offer something real and that these are things that we get to walk through, not alone.
Yes.
And so that's evangelism, right? That's total evangelism. And it's evangelism.
It doesn't try to win a debate.
Evangelism that says that you do not have to pretend here. You're not alone,
right? God is with you and God will be sitting with you while you are keeping.
And you start running to sit with that person as well, while you are both looking,
and searching and being in that space together.
While God is present, the Holy Spirit is present, right? and working through
you, in you, and within us in that relational context.
So I want to connect back to something that we talked about in season one,
prophecy and the prophetic voice, because people may hear that wisdom conversation
and wonder whether we are becoming too gentle or whether we are losing the sharp edge of the gospel.
Sorry about that. Dolly was having a fit.
So re-ask that question for me. Yeah. So in season one, we talked about the
prophecy and prophetic voice.
And because people, they may hear wisdom in a conversation and they wonder whether
or not they're becoming too gentle or whether we are losing the sharp edge of the gospel.
Oh, yeah, yeah. That is a great question.
And I think that's why we're here. We got so many,
responses the way we did, because some people remember that conversation we
had, because that was one of the things that we got a lot of response for, too.
So, prophets matter. You know, prophets call out injustice, prophets name idolatry,
prophets refuse to let people become comfortable while other people are being harmed.
And we need those voices. We need...
People who are willing to do that today.
A prophet will ask, what is wrong? Who is being harmed? What has to change?
Wisdom asks us, how do we live life faithfully as we move through this?
How do we speak? How do we listen? How do we stay human in the middle of this?
Prophecy gives us courage to name the you know name the fire you know what we're
being burned by wisdom helps us walk,
with one another through the smoke um and i believe they can correct each other,
i'm hoping that makes sense um prophecy keeps wisdom from becoming complacent it becomes,
it keeps us from becoming so gentle that we never tell the truth about injustice,
harm, racism,
poverty, exclusion, or the ways people are pushed to the margins.
But wisdom keeps prophecy from becoming performative.
Cruel self-righteousness, being disconnected from the people we say we are trying to serve,
there's a real real easy way and it's a problem in today's society where we
just become disconnected from it we get so focused on a goal that we disconnect from all of that,
um and,
everyday ethical evangelism needs both we need prophecy we need the prophetic voices,
we need the prophetic confidence and we need wisdom.
We need the courage to say this is not okay god loves the people who are being
pushed to the margins jesus cares about justice jesus cares about truth and it needs the humility to,
To say, tell your story. Help me understand.
I'm not going to speak over you. I am here to meet you, listen to you, and follow Jesus.
Stay here in the room with you, with God.
I love that. So, yeah. So, I'm going to be here. I'm not going to abandon you.
And God's in here with us. I believe that.
While I listen to you.
With you and if we need action i'll form that with you yeah so i'm going to recap what you said,
that prophecy gives us courage to name the fire and wisdom helps us walk with
one another through the smoke yes and we do that,
with christ's love the holy spirit's presence and god's mercy right It's so
intertwined. It's so beautiful.
Yeah. I think it is. Yeah.
To bring this home for us, so what does wisdom-shaped evangelism actually look
like outside the church building as we're going out and walking amongst our
siblings that may or may not,
want to walk with us or maybe walk it too fast or maybe don't even want to start walking?
You guys do. You're like, you guys do on me.
And I'm running beside you. I've said it before. I'll say it again.
You Episcopalians walk too fast.
Well, first of all, it's a lot
flash. It's a lot less flashy than a lot of people believe evangelism is.
It's not a bunch of tracks It's not a bunch of flashy commercials It's not,
Talking about what happens next If you don't believe And you need an entire
book series Of being left behind That turn into movies You don't need that,
It's simply doing things like,
Making room at the table At the lord's table And you know how I feel about that
everybody there is welcome um,
learn your neighbor's name you know and be willing to you know listen to their story,
you know we all have the you know there are people in the world that had that
say i just have that face they're going to talk to me well use that face talk to them um.
You you,
Invite people to do something, you know, to form a deeper community with them.
Invite yourself into it, you know.
It might mean being, you know, feeling a moment of discomfort yourself because
you're like, you know what, it's not my faith, but I'm going to go to that potluck they're having.
Go meet some people.
A service project. Conversation. Go to their prayer meeting if it's open to everybody. Um...
Make those relationships because any of those invitations, you're going to give out.
Don't just randomly go and give them out unless, you know, you see, well, they need a meal.
Then invite somebody. But, you know, find out if there's a need or something
and there's a way to help them.
But, yeah, you know, don't just randomly go up to one of the new co-workers
and go, you know, my church does a potluck every Wednesday. Come have dinner with me.
You know, those invitations, that's intrusive.
You know? So those invitations should come from relationship as well, I think.
Because people can tell, like we talked about before, when you're not being
sincere, you're just throwing out a sales pitch.
That turns people off. It does. Well, I think we also could look at invitations
as, so invitation is not the first thing.
It's the relationship is not just about the road to travel down and get the invitation. Right.
The relationship is itself as part of the witness, and I encourage everyone,
including myself, to go and find something that we have in common,
rather than the first lens, the first look, the first idea, the first judgment
is what we have differing opinions about or what our differences are, right?
What makes us actually more common? I mean, we're all God's children,
right? So that's the first commonality.
And so go from there rather than going in and saying, this is not this is somebody
that I don't have anything in common with. Right. Which is so not true.
Exactly. And I can tell you as somebody who's been taught that script of you
find somebody and you invite them, is you're doing that. It's a cold call.
And that's the last thing you should be doing. Get to know somebody.
It doesn't mean you won't end up inviting them, maybe even the same night,
but you've spent time getting to know them and you really want to do that because
you've found something in common, you're having a good time together,
and oftentimes that invitation comes naturally.
You know, that's a different story.
And so that's faith. So faith that probably makes more room for people who aren't
sure who are hurt or who have been pushed away by overly simple answers.
Right. This is allowing for the space and the grace and to show mercy,
to be able to be in community at one minute and to show up.
That's how we demonstrate our
faith right and that's how you know jesus said be careful of your piety,
he people know us by our thoughts words deeds and actions right our fruit is
is how they know us and how we bear our fruit our witness comes from that our
invitations come from that,
um and all of that takes courage and that comes from wisdom that's formation,
And that's what it takes to become an emissary of renewal A little plug there,
but it's accurate It's what we've been talking about these last two years So, again,
wrapping this up Going back to what we've been talking about Biblical wisdom,
That's all wisdom It's learning about this.
It doesn't replace Jesus It doesn't replace the cross, the resurrection Any
of that discipleship It doesn't replace that.
It's also, because this was a comment I got, it isn't a shortcut around the hard parts of faith.
Nothing we've talked about tonight is that. It doesn't.
Or this is one I hear a lot, is not a shortcut to make Christianity agreeable to people.
Cutting that out and making it agreeable.
Or ask anything of us. Right? Wisdom just challenges it in a different way.
It challenges our certainty. It challenges our rush to explanation.
It challenges our desire to believe that if we make all the correct choices, life will work out.
Leave in that nice little tie because that's what the Bible is.
It's a nice little bow. That's what Jesus is. It's a nice little bow.
You know, it's what the good news is. It's a nice little tied bow in this tiny
little box of faith. It's not.
And anybody, you know, that thinks that that's simple.
That's how, you know, believing in Jesus is, has always gotten that wrong.
Eventually, somebody's going to open that box up and go, wait,
I have a lot of questions that went unanswered.
And that's often when we lose them.
And what they lose is a beautiful relationship, authentic relationship with God.
Yeah, it's the good news of God who meets people where they are,
tells the truth, and they stay present in that suffering and invites us to come
together into life together, right?
Exactly.
So as we wrap up in our lovely ninth, you said ninth episode?
It's our ninth episode. So we just have a couple more for this season.
Don't forget to find us on all of the social media platforms.
We're on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube and the podcast.
This episode, obviously, if you're listening to it, has already come out on
Spotify, Apple Podcasts or YouTube. Yeah.
So be on the lookout and we're always looking for fresh, not fresh,
but we're always looking for amazing feedback and because see what happens is
your feedback allows us to be able to provide you with more content.
I know, DeeDee, you've got a mug out there that says, be careful what you say
around me. It might end up in a sermon. So please be open about your feedback
and it might end up in a podcast next time. As it did this time. Yeah.
I got a coffee mug that says that.
I got a lot of mileage out of that. I sure did.
But, yeah. You know what? Thanks, Cece. Like I said, it was great to be here
again. It's not that we don't talk often. We absolutely do.
But it's been a while since we've been on screen together. And so this was a lot of fun.
To our followers, to our listeners, thank you for being here today.
And as always, we are going to close with Scripture and Reflections.
Today we chose James 3.13 and then verses 17 and 18 in James 13.
Who is wise and understanding among you? Show by your good life that your works
are done with gentleness born of wisdom.
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable.
Getting willing, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits.
Without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy, and a harvest of righteousness is
sworn in peace for those who make peace.
I love that James does not say, if you are wise, make sure everyone knows it.
James doesn't say, if you are wise, with every argument. James says wisdom shows
itself in a good life, in gentleness, mercy, peace, sincerity, and good fruit.
James describes wisdom from above as pure, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield,
Being full of mercy, good fruits without partiality or hypocrisy That's the part I like,
That is such a powerful word for evangelism Because everyday ethical evangelism is not coercion,
It's not fear, it's not manipulation It's not treating someone else's question,
as a threat or an obstacle,
Ethical evangelism is telling the truth about Jesus While honoring the sacred
dignity Of the person in front of us Do you feel honored, Cece?
It is listening deeply It's making peace where we can It's,
repairing harm When we have caused it It's offering mercy It's being willing
to learn It's allowing our lives to bear the kind of fruit that makes people
curious about God and why we follow them.
And that is why I think these wisdom reflections have...
Struck such a chord. I'll get the
right word. We are all trying to live faithfully in a complicated world.
It's very complicated right now. We're trying to figure out how to be human with one another.
Wisdom doesn't give us control, but it can help us become people who bear the
good fruit while we're trying to survive it with you.
So friends, thank you for joining us for this conversation And Didi,
thank you for sharing the questions and the pushback And hope behind this month's reflections,
Thank you all for asking the questions And thank you to everyone who has engaged
with us this month Whether you were excited, surprised, uncertain,
or skeptical Skeptics,
skeptical skeptical.
All righty then. Keep asking. Keep reading scriptures with us.
Keep letting the Spirit stretch what you think evangelism looks like and keep talking to us about it.
Yeah. So may wisdom from above make us gentle and merciful, peaceful, and brave.
And may it help us to speak the good news with integrity.
And may we become emissaries of renewal not only in what we say,
but in the fruit our lives bear.
Until next time, go in peace and keep watching for the wisdom of God already
at work in the world around you.
Alleluia. Alleluia. Blessings, everyone.