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This episode is a deep dive into the user experience (UX) strategies that make Royal Match not just a game, but a phenomenon in the mobile gaming world.
Creators & Guests
What is Mastering Retention?
Welcome to the ultimate gaming breakdown with Tom Hammond and Neil Edwards! Tune in every week as we deconstruct today's top games and reveal the secrets behind their success.
[00:00:43] Tom Hammond: Hey everyone, uh, welcome to another episode of the mastering retention podcast. You've got your co host tom hammond and neil edwards here
[00:00:53] Neil Edwards: That's all I had that's all I had today that's all I had today tom was just just one just one firm I
[00:00:58] Tom Hammond: feel like I I missed an obligatory legendary somewhere in there.
[00:01:02] So i'll get to that somewhere in the episode Well, I mean
[00:01:04] Neil Edwards: I wasn't going to bring it up, but i'm glad you brought it up. I'm glad
[00:01:07] Tom Hammond: you know uh, cool, so, uh We are back with part two of, uh, the Royal Match, uh, kind of breakdown. So, this will be the, the fun part where we get into some of these, like, little nuances that actually make this game, like, just feel so good.
[00:01:28] Like, I can't, I can't even play Candy Crush.
[00:01:33] Neil Edwards: You can't go back. You can't go back once you've seen the promised
[00:01:36] Tom Hammond: land I I literally can't do it. Like I it just feels so to me [00:01:43] um, and so Yeah, we're gonna talk about why some of that stuff happens. So, um Let's play level. So Neil, talk to me a little bit about from like, again, you know, I remember that my mindset of art.
[00:01:59] It's like, you know, I'm lucky if I can draw like a cancerous sticker stick figure. So I have no artistic abilities there. Um, but like, talk to me about the U. S. Like. Color choices. Like they seem really bright. Like, does that matter?
[00:02:15] Neil Edwards: It does matter. Right. And I think this is kind of the difference between middling match threes and world dominating match threes, right?
[00:02:23] You've got a couple of things going on here and I'm not even a color expert. Right. But I am, I I've been doing UX for, for, for quite a long time. And so what do you, what do you have here is you have pieces that are pretty much only bright, like pretty much primary colors, right? You've got red, green. Uh, yellow blue, right?
[00:02:41] We only really deal with those [00:02:43] colors. Maybe they get more in later, but they're bright. They're extremely distinctive. You're not getting kind of, uh, purple and blue and orange and all of these blended colors, right? You're getting kind of very high contrasting colors. The other thing is, is shapes, right?
[00:02:58] And shape language matters here, right? One of the things that, um. Candy Crush, you know, maybe doesn't excel in as well as one. They blend colors. You got purples, you got blues, you got oranges, right? So they're not as stark contrasty. They also do like the striped candies and all that and I understand that's part of their mechanics and things like that.
[00:03:16] But you start to get even more kind of It's harder and harder to parse their levels. Um, I think the number of colors and the number of patterns you have here matters a lot, right? We've got one, two, three, four. Um, I don't know if they ever get into five. Um, but obviously there's a math thing from a, from a slot machine sort of design standpoint there.
[00:03:38] But from a usability standpoint. That and it's [00:03:43] the shape language, right? So we've got different objects. We've got leaves. We've got shields. We've got books. We've got crowns. There's a little bit of depth to them. And this gives us a really instantly readable board. Uh, you don't see it if maybe you're not as, as seasoned as a developer in match three, or maybe not, um, a person that deals a lot with the moment to moment experience of games, but this kind of stuff does matter.
[00:04:09] It matters because this board is easier to read. It's easier to get a quick read on. It's easier on my eyes. I don't have to spend as much time and it speeds up the play. Um, and not only is it delightful, um, but it really does speed up my ability to play. I don't spend so much time kind of visually hunting for a match and it's just kind of just, it's easier on the eyes, but it's easier on the brain.
[00:04:30] Um, and I think that that makes this game quicker, more fluid, more enjoyable. Um, so that's kind of one of the first big things. Um, and I don't know, Tom, if you wanted to comment on that or Bob to anything [00:04:43] else. I mean, I've got lots to say, you know, some of the other little haptic things they do and stuff like that in the core gameplay as well.
[00:04:50] Tom Hammond: Yeah, so, I mean, I'll also say, like, I'm not really, like, your traditional Match 3 kind of player. I haven't played, like, as many, like, this is one of the only games, like, I actually really enjoy playing. Um, so, I think one of the things that I've heard called out before, um, but being able to do, like, in tandem, uh, matches or things like that, like, not waiting for everything to kind of all happen at once and you can just kind of have things Like it just feels very smooth and natural and I'm not Like, when I want to do something, I generally can just do it, and the game just lets me do that, whereas, like, I think a lot of other match 3s have very, like, rigid rules that, like, you've got to wait for all this stuff, and it just feels kind of, like, slow and antiquated.
[00:05:38] Neil Edwards: You get these big, long, drawn out [00:05:43] cascades, right? And it actually kind of creates this, it turns this amazing, cool moment of a cascade or a double cascade into this thing that subconsciously is like a little ever so slightly frictiony, right? And you can tell in, in, uh, they're doing a lot of clever math here because sometimes they block you from making a move when stuff is resolving, but they do the work and put in the dev effort to do all these advanced calculations to say, Hey, if the part of the board you're trying to touch.
[00:06:09] It's not going to be affected by this cascade, which we can calculate in advance because it is deterministic. Let them keep playing, right? So you can just play through those cascades like Tom is saying. And that actually is, I mean, I am not going to say Royal Match was the first person to do it. I don't know.
[00:06:23] It is the game I notice it in the most. And it's definitely the first match three I noticed it in personally. And so it just feels fluid. It feels slick. It feels juicy. It gets out of my way. Um, and just boom, boom, boom, and then I'm, shoot, I'm out of moves. Um, and so yeah, the work they do, and that to me is a, that's kind of a [00:06:43] UX, uh, kind of lesson.
[00:06:44] Like a lot of people think of UX as UI, right? They think about it as static art, maybe animations, maybe not even. Maybe they think about it as particles of feedback, maybe not. Um, But tech is such a huge part of your UX, and that is a straight programmer task that someone needed to realize the importance of, Hey, this is going to feel better if we do some of this deterministic calculation and we open up input and we just let people keep swiping, da da da da da.
[00:07:14] And so, you know, it's, it's that, it's timing of animations, it's timing of how quick the things fall, how they end, there's so many things, some of which feel squarely in an engineering camp that shape your UX, you know, and this is kind of like victory by what's, what's the opposite of death by a thousand cuts.
[00:07:33] It's like, uh, I don't know. It's, it's a ton of tiny little things that add up to a really. Like Tom said, if you go back and play candy crush, uh, obviously the game still does [00:07:43] bonkers well, but like, if you go back and play some of these games, like it's very noticeable how delightful these things feel, the other thing, uh, kind of to just add on that, and we're kind of just, you know, harping on how great this core gameplay is, is haptics.
[00:07:57] Right. Um, I'm going
[00:08:00] Tom Hammond: to ask you a really good question. What are haptics?
[00:08:04] Neil Edwards: So haptics are basically the little thing that they put in your iPhone at some point, um, or I guess any device technically it's when you get physical feedback on your device, right? So it's that little. You know, thing they put where you touch a button on your phone and it feels like your phone is, it's not vibrating, but it feels like the button kicks back.
[00:08:21] Right. So it's that little bit of physical kind of feedback off of a kind of a digital interface. Right. Um, so you're used to it, you know, uh, the crazy people that keep it on on their texting keyboard. So every time you hit a key, it's like, that's the button. You actually feel it. Those crazy people that leave that on who have to charge their phone five times a day.
[00:08:40] It's that, um, But [00:08:43] the, the brilliance is. You, you don't even like, I'm studying this game with Tom and I was like, wait, do they have a haptic here? Do they have a haptic there? I got to go back and because it's like invisible, but when you pay close attention, there is a haptic on every single match in this game.
[00:08:58] Every time you make a match, you get the sweet little animation. You get the blast, you get the particle, you get the juicy squeak, like, sweet, just little slick, quick animations, and you get that little bit of physical feedback, that little, and there's delight in that, and, and then you go even further, and you realize, like, everything that happens in this game, like, every animation, every, every event where one object goes to another place, or two things connect, there's a haptic, so, you know, Tom, you know, if Tom taps the little whirlybird, He taps the whirlybird, he gets a haptic.
[00:09:31] Then when the whirlybird lands on something, he gets another haptic. Then when a match happens, he gets another haptic. Then when he cascade, and, and it's, you know, I'm sure most people have experienced this. It's not this overwhelming, like, oh, my phone is vibrating [00:09:43] out of my hand. It's this ever so slightly, like, you can actually control how intense it is.
[00:09:47] Uh, I believe in, in the dev settings and they've turned it way down, just a little bit of physical feedback. Uh, and then you go out into the rest of the game, you're like, every time you touch a button it happens. Uh, every time you get a reward, um, and it animates out of the chest in the center of the screen to go to your HUD, that, you know, when it, when it lands and it finishes its animation, that's a haptic.
[00:10:09] And I know I've said haptic about 87 million times, but my point is The little things really matter. And that is the difference between the middle of the road, match threes, and some of these world dominating match threes, it's these attention to detail. And if you study it at almost like an annoying level of, of, of looking at it, you will find things that you didn't even realize were there.
[00:10:33] Uh, even not even players don't notice, but developers don't even notice that until you look really closely on it. It makes a pretty significant difference in the delight. Um, You know, [00:10:43] with, with, you know, of, of playing your game and
[00:10:46] Tom Hammond: seeing happen to me here, completed the level. And now we can actually see the weekly contest at the bottom.
[00:10:52] So I can see like where my place is compared to other people too. So I'm, I'm actually in first place. I probably want to keep doing levels because, uh, Max is only five behind me. It's chomping at the butt. Yeah. So
[00:11:09] Neil Edwards: I think the one, actually one thing I kind of wanted to follow up on and maybe, I don't know if you'll get any here, Tom, but the last, the last kind of note, when we're talking a little bit about animation and polish and stuff like that, the reward sequencing they do on the return to home screen is, is best in class.
[00:11:26] And it's something a lot of developers struggle with. Um, so yeah, you'll kind of see it here. Um, I wish we could see, we could see.
[00:11:34] Tom Hammond: What's up? I feel like it could be sped up though, like that part almost seems to go too slow for me sometimes. Where like, that's the one area that [00:11:43] like, I don't know. So
[00:11:45] Neil Edwards: it's interesting, cause, it's interesting because I, I think I understand that.
[00:11:51] I think it's nice because it's non interruptive. Like you don't actually have to watch all that shit, you can keep playing out. Um, which I think is a huge mistake that some people make when they do reward sequencing. They make it input blocking and that really starts to rub a lot of people the wrong way.
[00:12:04] But sometimes people swing the lever too far and they're like, Ah, people are, you know, annoyed by getting rewards. We can't make it take too long. And yes, there, there is a too long, but I've had this debate with a lot of developers on a lot of different games. And one of the things that's really important is creating not only that feel good feeling, right?
[00:12:27] There's two parts here. There's comprehension, right? So depending on how complex your reward systems are, this sequencing of like. I got a thing and this is the thing and I get to see it quickly and it goes up here and then this thing happens and then this thing happens, seeing where those currencies go.
[00:12:42] We [00:12:43] talked about this with Brawl Stars, it's really strong for comprehension of understanding how your actions translate to your rewards and how all the systems are connected, especially when you have maybe more complex systems. You know, we're looking at like a post match and a competitive free to play game, right?
[00:13:00] That's where that sequencing, yes, it can't be too long. But it's got to be long enough such that people are seeing the output and the impact of their actions, right? Because that helps them buy into the systems more by understanding them more. And the other thing is, again, it's a tuning thing. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'll agree with Tom a little bit.
[00:13:18] Maybe it's a little, maybe it's a little too long. But There's that sense of man, you beat a level and you're just like, boom, a thing, boom, a thing, boom, a thing, boom, a thing. It's like every level is like a goddamn firework show. And again, you can skip through and keep playing. But some of that I really do believe contributes to that desire to spend when, you know, you are out of moves and have, have, [00:13:43] potentially are going to lose all these, uh, event rewards like we talked about in the last episode.
[00:13:48] It's not Or yeah, it's not just the stick of you're going to lose it. It's the carrot we've established of like what that feels like to make all that progress. Right. And so you got to tune it, but getting that tuning right is super valuable.
[00:14:04] Tom Hammond: I didn't consider that. Speaking of tuning, I want to talk about balance.
[00:14:08] So, one thing that I feel like, like, when I play Candy Crush, like, it feels like I never get these big moves, um, because the big moves are, like, so powerful of, like, destroying everything, right? Um, now, let's pretend we're gonna play this level, and I'm gonna, like, turn on all my boosters. I don't have the Max Butler gift, but I'm gonna do a lot of stuff.
[00:14:33] Um, and we'll just see what I find that in a lot of their levels, they're very, like, constrained [00:14:43] early. You know levels and they give you a ton of stuff in there But like, you know the uh sparkly ball Really isn't that powerful like even if I hit the red ones the books like i'm only gonna have six books here that it impacts It's not going to impact like the entire screen to kind of like box it in and make it The level we were playing before had all those like blocks blocks, you know the bottom So I explode all this stuff like feel super powerful do all this like cool stuff But it's not really going to impact the difficulty of the level That much like it's nice that I got to have this thing so I could come in and do some stuff.
[00:15:18] Um. But, like, there's still quite a bit of stuff that I have to do on this level here that, like, might be, you know, moderately difficult for me to get through and do all those things. This actual level doesn't seem too bad, but, um, I feel like they do a really good job of, like, making these, like, Level phases within the level almost.
[00:15:38] And like phase one, you can explode all this stuff, but it doesn't really get you that [00:15:43] far into phase two and phase three necessarily. Yeah.
[00:15:46] Neil Edwards: And I think they do a good job of tempering that curve, even in phase two and phase three. Like even especially phase two, where you're maybe a little bit more free.
[00:15:55] You're a little bit out of the box. You're around some of the initial obstacles that really can find your impact. I feel like you kind of put me onto this is like. It's almost like if you just make everything harder, but also up the power with it, you can keep the same relative difficult curve, but it's about feeling powerful.
[00:16:12] And so even in those phase two moments where you can make a bigger, like pretty, like actually more significant impact than when you're kind of, you know, overcrowded in phase one, um, it's still relative. So you, you can make the player. You can make the player do a thing that feels really powerful without breaking your difficulty curve, right, by just kind of jacking up the end of it relatively, and it actually is pretty effective, like the cold hard truth is that works, that works on people, um, you know, and I think not in like a predatory way, it's just like, [00:16:43] it's a, it's just kind of this, this mutual exchange of like, ooh, you get to feel good, have this powerful moment, but then, you You know, we don't, you know, I think, I think sometimes people mistake.
[00:16:51] Oh, if we give the player more power, we're going to break our balance. And it's like, no, you can control multiple levers and make them feel that way. It's like RPGs, right? RPGs, you get another sword and it does a bazillion damage. And then guess what? The monsters are harder. Right? And so it's just like, it's that set cycle.
[00:17:10] Tom Hammond: Yeah. I think, um, I
[00:17:16] had something very clever to say and now I'm distracted by playing my, my playing my bank. Okay. So maybe we'll
[00:17:24] Neil Edwards: blame the game. We'll blame the game. Not my tangent.
[00:17:26] Tom Hammond: Yeah, you can actually see it here. So this is actually even a better point. That's what I was waiting for really. Um, I've found that on certain levels they will actually, um, change the things that fall down, which impact your boosters rate.
[00:17:42] So [00:17:43] like here. And I don't know if this is completely the case, but they might be only using red and blue Um boosters here, which will like actually increase the chance that i'll be able to you know, get more stuff out Um, so we'll see what happens here okay, it's coming in with other colors, but Some some levels like they only have like a couple colors And so it increases like how many boosters and things that you're able to make and bring things together and stuff It's very, very clever level design.
[00:18:13] Um, I find it very impressive. Um,
[00:18:20] Neil Edwards: cool. This is somewhat of a tangent, but it's funny cause we're only about 30 levels apart. I think, I think you're like 30 levels ahead of me and I've already seen. Like multiple other mechanics, uh, that I haven't seen yet. Right. So I know we talked about this in the last episode, content cadence, introducing new mechanics, but there's a social [00:18:43] aspect to this, right?
[00:18:44] Um, you know, say on a Tuesday, you're randomly chatting with a friend on Google meets and you're sharing your screen about what you're doing, uh, in Royal match, um, obviously contrived scenario, but you know, you're, you're texting, you're screenshotting, you're putting things on Twitter or whatever. That, that visual.
[00:19:03] There's an intrigue there of, Oh, what's the blue star box? I've never seen the blue star box. Um, and the fact that they're kind of obstacles and new mechanics are all very visually distinct and visually interesting, um, I think adds to the social share ability of just kind of seeing a thing and kind of raises your eyebrow.
[00:19:20] Um, but anyway, tangent, but I literally just thought of that and I was like, Oh, I haven't seen that yet. I'm
[00:19:24] Tom Hammond: excited to get to it. Yeah, and they have. So much here. It's quite quite an impressively done game. Um, I think the other thing or a couple other things to go with balance that I like. So I really haven't like, well, I haven't actually spent money in this game at [00:19:43] all.
[00:19:43] Um, but yeah, I'll just fail this level. Um,
[00:19:52] I have 17, 000 gold. Like, I feel like they give me like a ton of stuff. Like, you look at all the boosters and stuff that I have, I have almost like 20 of all those different boosters and stuff. And like, I feel like this game has been very generous to me. I can burn through that pretty fast. Because like, if you get the plus five moves, it's nine hundred gold.
[00:20:13] If you have to do it again, it's nineteen hundred gold. And there's like, you know, I can burn through that pretty fast. If I did boosters on every level. I've got like 14, 20 levels and, you know, I'm suddenly out of stuff, but like, it feels like the game has been very generous, especially in this, like, early game, like, you know, playing through again, um, and I have so much stuff that I don't feel like I need to squander it, so, like, I feel like I'm getting trained that it's okay to do The 900 [00:20:43] gold for plus five years because you're get more it feels like it's okay to use the boosters to get through this super hard level because you're going to get plenty more and so like they're all like training me to do that stuff and I don't really feel this, you know, need to spend necessarily
[00:21:00] Neil Edwards: and and I and I feel like I feel like when you say that, it reminds me a lot of Supercell games traditionally.
[00:21:05] So like a lot of games, even to this day, but especially early App Store days, super stingy with their gems. Like you could never get enough gems to do anything meaningfully with. And so it just cultures you to like hoard, hoard, hoard your gems versus Supercell tends to be pretty generous. You can actually work hard to like save your gems.
[00:21:25] Um, Spend them on something reasonably valuable. Sure. You nickel and dime them out. You kind of like, Oh yeah, I'll get this little speed up here. I'll get this there. And it gets you in that culture of it's not such a precious resource that I can't spend it. Cause that would be a horrible decision because I got to hoard them all.
[00:21:40] And so, you know, this is where we see this as well. [00:21:43] They get you in the habit of, yeah, it's free, man. Just keep buying. And then, you know, they give you, offer you pretty good value trade offs when you need it, or when you hit those, those kinds of squeeze points. Um, but kind of like what you're saying, I think a lot of free to play games, you know, or maybe games that struggle is put the squeeze on players too quick before you've even built a habit, right?
[00:22:03] I think they do an excellent job of like, here's a fun game. There's a ton of free shit. You're going to play it for like two weeks before you even feel pressure to spend money unless you're just like wailing it up with all the power ups. And they really ingrained this. in your lifestyle before you start to feel a squeeze.
[00:22:20] And even then it's still a pretty generous product, I think. Um, and a lot of people, they just go right for the jugular way too quick.
[00:22:26] Tom Hammond: I'll just buy the special offer that gives you an unlimited, uh, hours worth of those boosters. So every time you want to play just a couple of bucks and yeah, couldn't go.
[00:22:35] Exactly. Ah, I love it. Um, okay. Uh, Last thing that I think we wanted to [00:22:43] talk about was, um, re engagement. Um, so, I feel like a lot of games don't really think about what is the player experience when they come back after not having played for a while. Yep. Big time. Like, you know, if I was to reinstall World of Warcraft, I haven't played that game in a long time.
[00:23:12] I'm probably like miles and miles away from like the in game type content. Like my experience is going to be like, you know, whatever, um, it's going to be like a jarring experience. It's going to take me a long time just to even get caught up or realize what I'm doing or what I could be doing, should be doing.
[00:23:31] I don't know. Um. I feel like Royal Match does this very clever thing, and I actually have this one set up too, um, you know, so we can talk through it. Um, [00:23:43] they do a welcome back gift, um, and so I have it set up as a triggered campaign where I basically pick the message type of welcome back gifts that gives me some additional fields that I can fill in.
[00:24:03] So ultimately what I want to do is I want to give them some gold. I want to give them some unlimited boosters to get them to have a really long session. So three hours of unlimited lives, et cetera, give them some, you know, free boosters and stuff there too. So that's one aspect of, I want to give you some stuff.
[00:24:20] So like you have like these really long, like great session times and stuff like that. Um, behind the scenes, um, chances are, um, I would also have some level modifiers and stuff that are going on here, um, such that I'm, you know, giving you 20 or 30 extra moves per level to make sure that, [00:24:43] like, you've got more than enough to have this, like, beautiful, great level experience, beat the levels, and, like, you're gonna get quite a ways through before you feel ups.
[00:24:51] Any sort of pressure, uh, again, and I don't know exactly how often this kicks in, it seems like it's maybe after like 30 days of being away or something like that, but like, you come back and your experience playing that game again is just like, oh, it's such a great experience coming back. I just love it.
[00:25:11] Um, and so even if you don't play consistently, you almost want to like just play at least once a month so you can come back and have that like super delightful experience. Yeah, I actually
[00:25:20] Neil Edwards: experienced this firsthand the other day or I mean, I obviously don't have the inside, you know, data or proof, but I'm fully convinced like I so like I bounced off of the game and I came back and I was on a super hard level, which is probably why I quit because I probably failed like a bunch of times.
[00:25:34] Right? Um, and I came back and I was on a super hard level and I beat it on the first try and maybe that was just luck, but I [00:25:43] highly doubt it. It seemed notably easier to me, um, than it, than it was in the past. And let's just pretend for argument's sake that they are doing that because it would be smart and it makes sense.
[00:25:55] Like Tom's saying, like you got to think about the moment your player left and why they left. And then you got to think about If they, if they left, it was for a reason. And if it's the experiencing their experience, they're having then, and they come back and they're having the same experience, there's so much more likely to bounce off, right?
[00:26:13] If I was grinding and grinding and couldn't get a level up or whatever it was, if I come back and nail my face against the same obstacle. The turn odds on that are so unbelievably high, right? And obviously the value of a successful re engagement is huge. So investing the time and tech to smooth that on ramp, uh, re familiarize people with mechanics, even that's a big thing that, that, that, that people, you know, don't necessarily, uh, invest in.
[00:26:42] It's like you come [00:26:43] back in and you may be unfamiliar with like new features, new mechanics, and you just got to get thrown into the wolves. Um, And we've just kind of maxed out our odds that people bounce right off the game again, when we could have, like Tom said, maxed out their sessions, got them in like, damn, I got back into brawl stars and just played it for like three hours last night and kept winning and went on this great run and invited this person to be my friend.
[00:27:06] Like those are the experiences we got to do. We got to create to, to get people back into our product. Right.
[00:27:16] Tom Hammond: Yeah. Um, So I'm just, like, spraying together a little example of what this, like, might be. Um, so I can now come in, and with my triggered campaign, I could also create an event with this, like, number of lives event. And I could be like, you know, you're gonna get 30 extra lives, and I'm going to make it 500 percent easier for [00:27:43] levels.
[00:27:43] I probably have some other controls in here of, like, how many levels that's good for, how long that lasts, or, like, whatnot. Um, but like this would only take effect for players that are coming back to this new player experience. So first they're gonna get that message, and then they play the level, and all this stuff is gonna take effect behind the scene.
[00:27:59] Um, so, I think you can do some super cool stuff, um, when you think about that. Actually, uh, Clash of Clans has gotten pretty good with, uh, the re engagement type stuff, too. Like, you used to just get, like, wrecked and trounced all the time, and, like, all your gold would be stolen and stuff, but now you come back and your gold stores and stuff are, like, completely filled, and there's, like, the supply train thing that's, like, filled with resources, some other stuff, and so You can just be like, Oh, I get a free army and I get all this stuff and I can do some building upgrades.
[00:28:28] And like you get back into it. Um, I feel like that's another one. If you're thinking about a re engagement to play it through and then try out. Oh yeah. Well,
[00:28:38] Neil Edwards: cool.
[00:28:39] Tom Hammond: I think that's pretty much all we had for part
[00:28:41] Neil Edwards: two. Anything else? [00:28:43] No. I mean, I think that, yeah, that's pretty much squares us. I think.
[00:28:48] Tom Hammond: Awesome.
[00:28:49] Well, thanks all. We'll see you next time. Appreciate you. Cheers.