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Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
Episode three sixty two of the Pilot to Pilot podcast takes off now. Did you know that eleven percent of accidents happen while taxiing? A Vemco insurance company believes education and awareness make a real difference, which is why they support safety programs and reward pilots who stay sharp. Pilot Pilot Podcast listeners can save 5%. Call (888) 635-4297 or visit ofemco.com/ 4297 dash owner for aircraft owners and visit ofemco.com/ 4297 non owner for non owners today.
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Speaker 1:Aviation, what is going on? And welcome back to the Pilot to Pilot Podcast. My name is Justin Siems, and I am your host. Today's episode is with David. He's a current Envoy pilot, but you he didn't know he always wanted to be an aviator.
Speaker 1:This is definitely a second career, some would call it a third career. But we talked about how he was a skater boy when he was younger, which then led him to follow his parents. He broke off from being a skater after, an accident, and he wanted to be a musician just psych his parents. And then he worked in hospitality, and then he wanted to be a military pilot, and then he finally figured out, I can do this on my own without the military. We follow his career.
Speaker 1:We follow his path, why he did it, what he did, what he would have done different, and he gives advice to a 17 year old on what he thinks they should do or what he wishes he would have done at age 17 or in high school. But, Avionation, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much. Like always, pilot the pilot h q dot com slash mag, the greatest magazine slash coffee table book in the game. If you're not watching on YouTube, you can see them in the background.
Speaker 1:I have volume one up above my left shoulder, volume two up on my right shoulder. And if you wanted to check out the magazine, you can check out volume one. No subscription needed, just a one time purchase. If you like it, keep buying it. So, Evianation, I hope you're having a great day.
Speaker 1:Without any further ado, here's David.
Speaker 2:A little bit about me, I'm I was born in Asheville, North Carolina and wasn't really that into aviation growing up, but it was kind of in the backdrop because my dad is like really into playing flight simulator and knows a lot about aviation and my uncle is a MD eleven pilot at UPS, he's a captain there. So I always knew about aviation, but kind of had other interests growing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Got really into skateboarding when I was younger, that was pretty much my life for a couple years, was competing doing that kind of stuff. Later on, I got really into music, which was my main career prior to aviation. I did that for about a decade. So I was playing in orchestras professionally, playing the tuba. And around the pandemic, I kind of pivoted into aviation, did all my ratings, flight instructed, and now I'm where I am now, which is a FO at Envoy.
Speaker 2:I've I've been here about ten months now.
Speaker 1:Sweet, dude. Well, so you mentioned music, you mentioned skateboarding, like there's so many things you had going on that like you could have pursued as a career. Mean, I don't know about skateboarding as a career, but I guess you can
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Have a living like some people, that is their career. Right? I mean, every what? 13 year old wishes at one point that they're a professional skateboarder. I feel like everyone has gone through that stage.
Speaker 1:I mean, I had the skateboarding shoes, I got a skateboard, I quickly figured out that I like couldn't even figure out how to ollie. So was like, alright, this is not for me. No one wants to see me just manual down the road for one second before I fall off.
Speaker 2:Oh, man. Yeah. Skate skateboarding, you know, it's it's kind of funny because I think about it now that it kind of it influenced me a lot in my other pursuits down the road because when when you skateboard, I mean, it's like it's everything aviation is in a way because, you know, you fall, you try something, you fall maybe really bad and, you know, all you can do is kind of get up, brush yourself off and try again and just keep at it and and, you know, be persistent in that. And, you know, that's kind of what aviation is is too in a You got to be really resilient. So it was it was a great thing though, it gave me a lot of focus and community growing up.
Speaker 2:All my friends did it. I'd always go to the skate park after school and hang out with them, we'd go on road trips to different skate parks. It was just the most incredible community in the world, you know, it didn't matter what color you are, where you came from, none of that, it's just everyone got together and kind of united around this common purpose. So it's it was a special time, I really miss it. Maybe I'll get back and do it one of these days.
Speaker 1:Maybe you should bring your skateboard with you on the road, right? You know, I'll still be able to bring their guitars and stuff, I wanna see you Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's it. I walk through the terminal with my little I have my little backpack, it has a a holder on the back where I can clip my skateboard. So, yeah, maybe
Speaker 1:Well, you don't walk through, you just you ride through. Right? You're gonna start doing Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just ride through.
Speaker 1:That could be a thing. The skateboard part.
Speaker 2:I'll have the I'll have the tuba on the back as well. The skateboard through the terminal tuba my back. What could go wrong?
Speaker 1:And tuba. Yeah. What I mean, tube is probably a little big to do that, you know. I'll hold your
Speaker 2:That'd be tough. Don't worry.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Someone's gotta hold the bags.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, what a time, dude. Yeah. Skateboarding, wild. It's kinda interesting that you bring up kind of, you know, the resilience you need to do both and how that could have taught you that. Because I mean, yeah, aviation, right, especially when you learn when you go from private to IFR, it's just like you're You gotta keep doing it, doing it, doing it until you get it.
Speaker 1:It's probably similar to skateboarding. It's like you keep doing the trick and then you eventually get it or you get hurt really bad and then you stop, but you eventually get it.
Speaker 2:That's it. Yeah. And, you know, aviation, you you know that meme with the the iceberg and it shows kind of the top of the iceberg in the water and then below it, it's like this massive thing and it and it's sort of Yeah. It's it's sort of telling you, it's it's trying to portray that, you know, people that are successful, like, it looks like they just coast through everything and it's super easy, but underneath there's all this sacrifice and stress and and work that goes into something and, you know, aviation is just like it's just like that. It's, you know, all of us that got into this profession that had a lot of challenges throughout the way and you just got to overcome it and keep keep going forward no matter what.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think it's one of the problems with with Instagram, right, or with any kind of social media, is once you get there, a lot of people just show you the good. They show you, oh, yeah, I'm a Delta fo, my profit sharing check was $30,000. I fly weekdays only, I get green slips all the time. It's like, yeah, dude, but like, don't forget about like the bad days or don't forget about what it was like when you didn't know you were gonna work for Delta or whatever major airline you wanna work at.
Speaker 1:So a lot of times Instagram, you know, can only show the good things, but it's important. And I think I try to do this on the podcast too, is remind people like this is a grind. It's always gonna be a grind. Even when you when you get there, quote unquote, when you get the major airline job, it can still be a grind.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right, Justin. It's funny because social media can be such a great thing. I mean, take this podcast, for instance, how many people have probably been inspired to pursue aviation from this podcast or, you know, the different influencers on Instagram. And that that part of it is great. I mean, if it can motivate people to pursue this career, I think it's a great thing, but it can be toxic, you're right.
Speaker 2:Because if all the students out there are seeing is find all these cool places and it's all just happy all the time, you know, it it can kind of mess up your expectation versus reality when you actually get there. So, you know, people should be aware of that. It's it's not always fun, but at the end of the day, if if you love flying and love aviation, it's still still awesome an awesome time overall.
Speaker 1:You know, one thing I've learned is this, try to keep your head down, worry about yourself. You know, there's always gonna be people that are gonna be cringe online, there's always gonna be people doing their own thing, but it's like, try to avoid it, Just don't get caught up in it. Uh-huh. Eventually, it all works out. Either they fizzle out or maybe the rare ones actually make it pretty big and they're making really good money and that's how they support their family.
Speaker 1:But at the end of the day, all we can do is worry about ourselves and just just go do the best we can to fly the plane.
Speaker 2:Amen. That's that's the name of the game, man. Amen.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So if I remember correctly, I was reading an article that came from your airline. You have both your parents are musicians, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. My mom is a singer and my dad plays organ and So growing up, very musical family. I also have a twin sister that plays flute and teaches a high school choir in Texas, so very musical family. And as when I mentioned in that my little intro, that that was my life for for over a decade. I started tuba in sixth grade, I think it says that in the in the article, it was kind of a dare.
Speaker 2:No one wanted to play it because it was so big. And, you know, people were kind of laughing like, oh, you should do that. And I was like, alright, sounds good to me. So I just I chose it. There wasn't a lot of thought that went into it.
Speaker 2:And I remember like two weeks into it asking the band director to switch to saxophone because, you know, everyone wants to play saxophone, right? It's just like that cool instrument. And looking back, really thankful, the band director said no, he didn't have any vacancy, so I was stuck with the tuba. And kind of realized early on I was pretty pretty talented, but I I had no work ethic, I didn't practice Mhmm. None of that stuff because I was skateboarding all day, you know, five hour four or five hours a day.
Speaker 2:But I kind of had a pivotal moment, it was I believe in ninth grade, I was skateboarding in a on a vert ramp, like a 10 foot vert ramp and I I hung up on the on the lip of the ramp and fell to the bottom on my arm and got a kind of broke my elbow pretty bad and was out for, you know, a couple months. And during that time I started listening to a lot of music and kind of researching that pathway and learning about it and when I kind of got better, I started really practicing a lot and this was in high school. So and you know, kind of researching, hey, if I wanted to go down this pathway of being a professional musician, what what would it take and and how would I do it? So that kind of redirected my focus. So not saying I'm happy I broke my arm or anything like that, but it's it's just interesting sometimes what these these kind of seemingly really bad moments, a lot of good can come out of it because it kind of redirects you down a new path, which
Speaker 1:you know, things happen for a reason. Right? You know, that's why I think it's a higher calling or whether it's just how things work. It just seems like things happen for a reason. And when you take yourself out of the moment and you let time go by, it is crazy how things do work out.
Speaker 1:Right? Like it doesn't feel like that in the moment. Right? Like breaking your arm, you're like, man, this sucks. I'm so so sad or mad or whatever that I broke my arm.
Speaker 1:But like it led you to pivot a little bit, and figure out something that you love. And it's funny you're talking about band. Did or music class in middle school. I did music class in fifth grade. You kinda you had to do it.
Speaker 1:It was mandatory. Right? But you do tryouts. Everyone wanted to do the drums. Everyone was trying to do the drums, but they only had one spot for the drums, only one person got it.
Speaker 1:But I did the trumpet and I just remember I hated it so much. I just wanted to play as loud as I could and I was just like ruining it, restless like blowing as loud as I could. I couldn't figure it out. So I was just like, this is not for me. So I was a one and done in the the music world, but I don't come from a musically talented family.
Speaker 1:So I think that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But you know, it's it's kind of funny because what kind of kept me doing it was that same sense of community I got from skateboarding, you know. Because it's it's just the most powerful thing when you're all united around this common purpose of playing together. But but I get that, it's it's definitely not for everybody but man, I don't know, I know some people that just that kind of revisit it later in life and then end up really sticking with it. So you never know, it's not too late.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Maybe the
Speaker 1:next Well, I step will say, my yeah, kid is no. My kid is definitely into music right now. He's four years old. So we're trying to figure out, it's like, alright, well, maybe we just like show him a little bit of the past. You know, like guitar lesson.
Speaker 1:Don't know, four year olds probably too young for guitar lesson, but singing lessons or music or anything like that just to see where it goes. But, yeah, it it is cool. It's all about the community. I think that's what really cool about a lot of things you do. You mentioned a skateboarding community, music community, aviation community.
Speaker 1:And it's important to get involved in that community so you can kind of feel welcomed and feel like this is your people. I will say, I would imagine the skating vibe and the music vibe is very different. Very very different. Did you find yourself having to like, did it change your personality at all or did you bring that kind of like skating culture into the music class or into the music
Speaker 2:No. It's funny. I I think I brought the skating culture into the music class and maybe even into aviation in in some ways. But, yeah, it's yeah. I I think I've been the same person throughout all the experiences.
Speaker 2:It's just I've taken something different away from each of them. But man, music when you think when I really think about music and aviation specifically, it is shocking to me how much I took away from my music pursuits into aviation. I I don't know if you're aware of how kind of the whole professional musician process works but basically asking
Speaker 1:me this question, what is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's it's kind of crazy. So basically, an orchestra will have an opening and there's only one tuba in an orchestra. So the same guy or girl might be in that position for forty or fifty years before they retire. There's no mandatory retirement age like like aviation unfortunately.
Speaker 2:So when an audition happens, you could have, you know, a couple 100 applicants actually there to play and there's a list of music you're supposed to sort of prepare in advance, you know, kind of like on a checkered, there's different maneuvers you have to do, you know, and you know in advance what they are, right, usually. And you show up to the city where the orchestra plays and you go out on their stage all alone and there's a big screen out in the audience and there's a committee that sits behind the screen that listens to the audition and kind of grades it and you're just a number, like candidate 15 or whatever, they don't know your name or who you are and you have three to five minutes to to show these people why they should hire you by playing your your instrument, by playing whatever they ask you to play. So you can imagine how nerve wracking that would be. I mean, because you've spent probably months preparing for this moment, know, probably practicing all day for months. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you have three to five minutes to show them who you are as a musician. So the level of of discipline and focus it takes to do that is is really incredibly high and it takes a lot of preparation and focus to do that. So, you know, a checkride is kind of like that, right? I mean, you've got longer than three minutes thankfully to show the examiner who you are and how prepared you are but it's kind of the same concept, you know. It's all about being super prepared, leaving no stone unturned and showing up and then just kind of throwing all caution to the wind and just kind of going for it and not really worrying about the outcome.
Speaker 2:So I I learned a lot of lessons in music that I brought to to aviation. It's really kind of shaped who I am as a pilot, really.
Speaker 1:What a what's a career in music look like? Like, mean, you mentioned someone can be at this orchestra for forty years. I kind of thought it was gonna be like, what was the movie? Was a movie with Nick Cannon, it was like drumline, I think it was, where you could challenge a drummer and it's like, you can't do it. Like, once you're there, no one's gonna challenge you or do you have to continually, defend your place?
Speaker 2:You know, it's funny you mentioned that because, my dad came up to visit me last week and we went to Chicago Symphony concert and we were kind of joking before the concert, like hey, what if orchestras were run kind of like airlines, you know, because like you think an airline each year we have to go to recurrent training, pass our check rides again and sort of, you have to kind of keep proving yourself that you're still, you got the stuff to keep flying. We said, what if in the orchestra world every year the musician had to come in and play an audition and they graded you on your, you know, musicianship and intonation and all this stuff and you you kind of had to like prove yourself and how kind of interesting that would be because it's it's not like that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You once you're in in the music world, there's a probationary period for like a year or or however long the orchestra deems it. Once you pass probation and get tenure, you're kind of safe forever. There's not a lot that can they can do to you at that point unless, you know, something really crazy happens or you break the law or whatever. But it's not like aviation where you're having to prove yourself. Now, for a position like Tubo where there's only one of them, you know, that you can't hide.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's only one of you in the orchestra, so everyone can hear you. So Mhmm. You're gonna be pretty motivated to to stay on your game just because you you wanna make a really good product and contribute something to to the to the group.
Speaker 1:For a for a musician path, is it kinda like, you know, the the path to airlines? Is it where you you start at a smaller orchestra and then you try to get recruited by the bigger orchestras, which could be the regional? And then do they have like major orchestras where you can live a better life and make some good money? Is it kind of similar to that or is it just like you said, like, well, I'm gonna join the local one, I'll just stay there forever.
Speaker 2:You know, I would say that in a lot of ways, is kind of like what you just said. There's a lot of musicians out there in the big big orchestras, the really big league orchestras that started in maybe a smaller symphony in a smaller town, maybe played there a couple years, got some experience and then kind of moved their way up. But there's also been people that have just out of nowhere gotten it, like my teacher in Boston when I did my masters, he's he plays tuba in the Boston Symphony Orchestra, which for those that don't know is probably maybe arguably the best job, one of the best jobs in the world. And he he had he did not have an orchestra gig before that, that was his first job. So it is possible, it's very rare but it's it is possible.
Speaker 2:Also fun fact, that same musician is also an instrument rated pilot himself.
Speaker 1:Oh, sick. Good for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There's it's it's funny, there's a lot of tuba players that are randomly pilots that I know I could name off So like three or four just off the top of my there's something to it. I I I'm convinced that some of the the qualities that you need to be a professional musician really transfer to aviation. There's something to that. There has So to
Speaker 1:when did you kind of make the pivot? You know, you pivoted skateboard to music, now you're pivoting music to to aviation. What kind of drove that?
Speaker 2:So when I graduated from my master's degree, which was in 2018, I started working for my dad in the hospitality business. The mindset was, hey, I can work here, I can make some money, at the same time I can practice my instrument, continue to take auditions and hopefully I'll score something and be able to move and to whatever city I get a job in, you know, playing in the orchestra, teaching or whatever. So I was kind of happily doing that and then that little event in early twenty twenty happened and we lost our entire staff pretty much overnight. We lost all our housekeeping, most of the front desk, it was down to just a few people and it got so bad, my mom came down because we were still living in Asheville and North Carolina and I was living at the hotel full time. So my mom came down from Asheville, my dad came down from Asheville and it was a sort of a family effort to keep the place from sinking basically.
Speaker 2:So I was running front desk, I was running the laundry, you know, I was in there slinging laundry for ten hours a day, cleaning rooms, checking rooms, I mean, it was it was pretty insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But during that period, I learned that that I was pretty through a lot of practice and and sort of learning myself there, I was kind of pretty okay at leading and training new people and sort of analyzing systems and trying to make things better and and really like reglue together this this business. And I thought, you know, I might be able to do this pilot thing because I I knew I know from my uncle a little bit about aviation that, you know, for example, you got to be really calm during emergencies, really level headed. My uncle used to always say, you got to wind your watch, you got to be really calm. And I found that I could do that, I could have guests screaming and shouting at me when the issues are happening and I can just kind of stand there, kind of just chill and just not let it affect me as I think through the problem. So I started kind of dabbling with the idea of aviation and my uncle that flies at UPS, he was in the Marines formerly, flew F-18s.
Speaker 2:So that was all, that was the pathway I knew. I didn't even know you could be a CFI or I thought you had to basically join the military or go to like Embry Riddle or something. So naturally, I started looking at the military and I found a Navy recruiter that I was working with and going through, I went to MEPs and did all that, I was studying for the written, the ASTB it's called, you have to take to get placed in the aviation pipeline. And I moved back to Asheville about a year and a half later, we sort of sold the place and moved back to Asheville. I was still kind of in, you know, do kind of on that track.
Speaker 2:When I got to Asheville, I remember waking up one day on one of my days off from work and I just Googled Discovery flight near me or flight school near me or whatever and I found a flight school in Asheville at the Asheville Regional Airport and submitted the little form and their instructor's name's Garrett responded a couple hours later and said, do you want to come in for a discovery flight? I was like sure, so I started and I had no intention of doing it as a career at this point at all, I just thought, oh well, I can maybe start some lessons, get a few hours in, make sure I really like it and I'm going to keep going the military route, right. So I started my private there and learned that about this whole other path, you could be a CFI, you could do your ratings and go that way. And in the military, one of the problems is you don't really know what you're going to fly, you know, you go through training and you get assigned that later, so for all I, I didn't know what I was going to get to fly, it could be helos for all I knew and my ultimate goal was the airlines.
Speaker 2:I was very interested in serving and doing all that but I did airlines. And so when I found out about being a CFI and getting your ratings and you know, there's a very kind of clear progression there, you do CFI, you go to the regional, you become a captain at the regional, you go to mainline. I liked that there was sort of a clear system of
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Progression in that. So, Barbara, this would have been around mid twenty twenty one, maybe a couple weeks into my private, I I sort of decided to give it my all and and go for it.
Speaker 1:Did your parents think about that? You know, someone that comes from a completely different background. Right? Like, it's this music. Like, we don't know anything about flying planes.
Speaker 1:We know that it can be dangerous. We know all this. With the co the the pandemic just happened, we saw what happened to airlines. They're like, look, airlines were furloughing. Airlines were begging for money so they could stay alive.
Speaker 1:Were they like, that's not the best idea you've ever had. Like music, you're really good at music, do that. Or were they like, alright, David, you wanna go fly planes? Good luck, go do it and give it your all.
Speaker 2:You know, Justin, I feel like every pilot out there, there's probably, there's there's people in their lives who are basically they wouldn't be where they are today without. And my parents are are one of them, my especially my dad. To answer your question, when I was looking at switching career, pivoting careers to aviation, I was talking to my dad about it and this was when I sort of was going to go down the civilian path. And I told my dad, hey, this is going to be like pretty expensive, I mean it's you know, it's not cheap doing your flight lessons and all these check rides and everything and you know, at the time I was working full time, but I knew that I was going to need to quit my job and kind of go all in if I really wanted to make this happen. And my dad without without skipping a beat said, go for it.
Speaker 2:Do it. I'm behind you a 100%. You know, you could pay me off later. We'll figure something out, but but go for it. And he had more confidence really in that than I did at the time.
Speaker 2:And looking back, I think without him and especially in that moment, pushing me like he did to to really commit it, you know, I maybe I wouldn't have been willing to pull the trigger and actually go for it. So I'm grateful that he motivated me like he did and was kind of there to support me within that decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, it's always great to have someone believe in you. Right? I mean, having one person believing in your dream and believing in what you can do can go a long way, especially when they can help financially. Right?
Speaker 1:I mean, like, the barrier of finance is massive in this industry. Like a lot of people look at like a Pilot's like, would love to do that, but, you know, I can't come up with a $100. Can't come up with a $120, whatever it is. I don't wanna take out loans and I get it. It's tough.
Speaker 1:It's a it's a really tough industry to get into with the burden of finances. But I do like to think it's still worth it, you know. You can make it to Delta, you can make it to American, you can make it to United later and you can live a really really good life. It's just kinda delayed gratification. My wife's in healthcare too and she's a doctor but like that's extremely delayed gratification too.
Speaker 1:You're taking out massive loans to hopefully one day have a big payday. And I think that there's a lot of similarities between between that and and being a pilot. And it's probably the same thing with music, right? Like you're probably living off the like you're not really making any income, you're just begging these people to come give you a chance and it's just you gotta put it off, you gotta work on your craft and you gotta keep doing it. And one day, it'll pay off if you're consistent and you have people that believe in you.
Speaker 2:That's absolutely right, Justin. And it's a really tough thing because I wish that there were more ways for Pilots to get into this career field that don't have the financial resources, you know. I mean, it's tough if you're taking out a high interest loan and then you become a CFI and you're making, you know, 30,000 a year and it's it's really challenging. So I hope someday there's there's maybe more scholarships or something available for people to to get into it because it's it's tough. At the end of the day, I mean, you do your flight lesson, you get that bill for $350 or whatever and Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah,
Speaker 1:it's it's tough. To fly that plane? To fly that POS? Yeah, like what?
Speaker 2:Exactly and you know, I was really lucky, I did most of my training basically out of out of a hangar in North Georgia. I I did my private in Asheville but I did the rest of my ratings in North Georgia. This incredible woman, her name is Michelle Curcio, she's a career flight instructor and she basically owned a couple planes and she had a hangar space and she started sort of a flight school, if you could even call it that. I sort of saw it grow, when I got there it was basically a couple planes and her and one other instructor and it kind of grew with me as I progressed through it. I think now they have maybe six or seven instructors and maybe seven airplanes or something, but it was it was good in that it was cheap.
Speaker 2:I was paying
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I think it was like 150 an hour for the plane, like 50 for the instructor. Later on, when I met people that went to these bigger kind of ab initio flight schools and found out what they were paying for their lessons, I was shocked. That's insane. In some cases, over Yeah. Over twice as much, so
Speaker 1:Yep. I mean, is You know, there there's pluses and minus for everything. Right? Like some people need the structure of a one sixty one flight school. Some people need to live, to breathe it, to be there every single day, to have a rigid schedule.
Speaker 1:Right? And it works for you. But other people don't need that. Other people can find a career flight instructor with two planes and an instructor or whatever it is and be like, hey, can you fly tomorrow? Like, yeah.
Speaker 1:Alright. Well, can you fly on Saturday? Yeah. You know, hey, can you fly now? Was like, no, actually wanna do this.
Speaker 1:Or some people it's just different things for different people. And that's what's awesome about having the two different options. Neither one is is better than the other, in my opinion. Some people might argue that, but at the end of the day, the airline's gonna look for a competent pilot and someone that they can spend eight, ten hours with in an airplane and not wanna go home and and call in sick or punch them in the face, right? Like they just want someone that's a good person that they can trust the brand and and and do the job.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I've flown with really good part 61 pilots and really bad part sixty one pilots. I've flown with really good one forty one pilots and some really bad one forty one pilots. So at the end of the day, it's it's up to you. I mean, it's it's about you, the individual.
Speaker 2:But like you like you said, I do believe that there you know, for some people, the the structure of one forty one is better suited to them. And for me personally, be may probably because of my music background, I was really good at at making a plan and then executing it. So for me the sixty one route was great because I had the it was like kind of like being self employed. I mean I could book six lessons a week if I wanted to, or if I wanted to just kind of maybe take a throttle back a little bit and study more, I could book two lessons a week and I loved that flexibility and that I could just kind of take my checkride when I was ready for it, versus some I think some of these bigger schools, they actually kind of make you take it when you get signed off and I don't think you could even choose the examiner that you go with. So, you know, I don't like that.
Speaker 2:Like to be able to kind of control all those variables as much as I as I can. So for me, 61 was was great. But now that I've kind of been through that process and that I instructed part 61 for around eight months at the this flight school Horizon Dreams in Cornelia, Georgia, best flight school in the world by the way, if anyone's looking for a place to go. I I moved to a one forty one school in the Atlanta area in Kennesaw, Georgia. So I kind of worked my way through that world and became a Czech airman and all that.
Speaker 2:So I think I saw both sides really well and I kind of sometimes now think to myself, what would I tell someone, like a new student, maybe a kid in high school? And and, know, looking looking at especially at Envoy going through the training process there, man, it's tough, but I think overall the one forty I hate to say it, a lot of my 61 friends will kill me, but I think the one forty one path is if I had to choose when I'm looking back, it'd probably be that because of the structure of it, the standardization of it. I noticed kind of going through airline training, that's kind of what they're into, especially when hiring slows down. Because I think statistically those guys and girls have a pretty pretty good pass rate that because they're used to that kind of environment. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That really standardized environment when the 61 people like me, you know, I turn on my landing light or my you know, nav lights, you know, when I need them, when I want them. There's not like a specific flow or point where there's, you know what I mean? Yeah. Where where they're supposed to be on, but you go to like a one forty one school and it's like, no. At this point, you have to do it this exact way, which is kind of what it is at the airlines.
Speaker 2:Right? You you have to do it their way or the highway pretty much.
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Speaker 1:That's allworthfinancial.com/justin.
Speaker 2:So Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's one of the harder things a lot of people struggle with when they go on to the airline training or whether it be the fractional world, you know, is getting into the SOPs, getting into standardization, getting into flows, getting into that. And it's not hard. Right? It's just kind of like a it's like a play. It's like a it's like learning how to shoot a music to relate.
Speaker 1:It's what you're doing. You should gotta study. You gotta memorize it. You gotta you gotta verbatim know how to do it. Sit in your chair.
Speaker 1:Just say, alright, 10,000 feet, what do I do? I do this, I do this, I do that. Okay. Now, I'm gonna back it up with a checklist. Okay.
Speaker 2:You know time.
Speaker 1:And it's something you can't fake until you either know it or you don't. Right? Like you can't Right. Like you know at 10,000 feet you do this or you don't do it. And you're gonna be up there climbing up the checkride, the examiner's be like, what what are we doing?
Speaker 1:What what did forget? And you're like, oh shoot. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2:I think That's it, man. That's it. And you know, when I when I was in the 61 world kind of exclusively, I I don't know if I completely saw the value in that because at the time my mindset was, hey, I want to be like a free thinker. If checklist is inefficient, I want to go in and maybe use the POH and maybe flip the order around or do something to make things make more sense. Know, if a student is constantly missing this item, maybe I can reword it in a different way where he gets it every time.
Speaker 2:Know, I wanted to be kind of a free thinker, know, I want to take the student out when it's low IFR or when there's the really strong crosswind, you know, to get that experience. But you go into the one forty one world and it's like, oops, sorry, school limit is 13 knots of crosswind or whatever, you're not going, sorry about that. And that kind of got frustrating at first, but I see now the value in SOPs and they're the reason that the airlines are able to be so safe, because you fly with someone you've never met before, week after week after week and constantly consistently have a safe outcome because we're all just doing things exactly So the same I see now the value in all of that and I think it's why the airlines are so safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Agree. It's just nice to know that you, you know, we previous job, we would change captains quite a bit. I mean, it still happens now. But you know, it's like, alright, well, gonna do my job, he's gonna come into his job.
Speaker 1:Like, I can count on him or her to do the job that needs to be done because it's it's in a book, we know what to do, it's a play, right? We we do it and we make it work. I do wanna talk a little bit about your decision of changing flight schools, right? You're in Nashville, you know, you found what seemed like a good opportunity, a good school, why'd you move? Why'd you go to a Durham flight school after you're private?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question Justin. So I started at this flight school, didn't know at all what to expect, didn't know I didn't know January was, '61 was, whatever, I just was like, okay, flight lessons, let's go. And I was actually in the one forty one program there when I started. I just didn't know what that meant. So it was, you know, I had the lesson, flight lesson one, you know, takeoffs, flight lesson two, slow flight, whatever.
Speaker 2:And things were going good, I was enjoying it. And about, I believe about two thirds through my private, it was kind of the phase where you're getting ready for the actual check ride. I think you had already done most of your cross countries and all that kind of stuff. It was kind of the last stage exam where you were kind of basically trying to get signed off. Was, and I think I mentioned when we started about how pilots, every pilot out there has had difficulties they've had to overcome challenges.
Speaker 2:This was my first one because things I've been coasting, things have been going good, I was passing all my exams and then I get to this last stage exam with the chief pilot and he kept busting me for landings. He's like, oh the landings are too flat, the landings are too flat. And I was like, what do you mean the landings are too flat? What does that even mean? So I go back to my instructor and I'd land the plane and my instructor would say, I don't know what the problem was, seems fine to me.
Speaker 2:Not saying they were the most buttery perfect landings in the world, right? As you know, most of us probably don't really figure out landings till CFI or commercial, I mean really figure them out. There's a difference between a safe landing for a private pilot and like a perfect butter landing that you know, that you would accomplish.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But this was frustrating me because I would go with different instructors, I would land for them and they'd say it seems fine to me and then I'd go back to the chief pilot and he'd say, oh nope, needs more work, sorry. Didn't really give a lot of feedback. So it was really frustrating me, so I started talking to my instructor and great guy, his name's Garrett, he's at PSA now, think he just upgraded to Captain actually, amazing dude. Still keep in touch with him to this day. He told me that hey, there's this thing called part 61, you could do that and I could sign you off and you could just go take your checkride.
Speaker 2:I thought, oh my, that sounds great, let's do that. Please, I'm Yeah. Switched to 61. I I think I needed a couple more cross country hours because the 01:41 was reduced. So I I flew a couple cross countries, did a couple training flights, took my check ride and passed it.
Speaker 2:Just fine, no no issues and but after that, I I kind of got a bad taste in my mouth with the school as as a whole, just because it just didn't feel right, it felt like maybe they were trying to milk my wallet or or whatever and I just it didn't. And there was other problems there too. It was hard to schedule planes, the weather in the mountains were a lot of times was really bad. You can So I started looking elsewhere and I found a certain, I will not say it by name, but a certain ab initio zero to hero flight school that is very popular. They they look like Best Buy employees, you know, the pilots out there and I joined that down in Atlanta And I was there for about three weeks.
Speaker 2:I remember my instructor in Nashville telling me don't go there, don't go there but I you know, I didn't listen and about three weeks in I realized, oh, this is actually a really, maybe not the most ideal training environment, let's just say.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The flight school I trained at that this Horizon Dreams Flight School, they use the same kind of aircraft as the the one I was using down there in Atlanta. So a lot of the students would rent from this flight school to do extra training. Got it. So I went up to this flight school one day, I figured, oh, well, I'll do a renter checkout, then at least I can fly extra, maybe take my dad up and, you know, flew the lot with my dad. So it seemed like a fun thing.
Speaker 2:So I went up there and man, from the moment I walked in the door, it just felt right. There was a kid reading his POH sitting there who later I became good friends with. I met the owner, met the people down at the FBO. It just felt so such like a a family vibe. I loved it.
Speaker 2:And my instructor had flip flop, you know, like whatever flip flops on and like shorts and the t shirt, you know, just really chill environment like a ball cap and I just liked it. I went up with them, did some landings and I was already looking for flight skills at this point, I knew I wasn't going to stay. And this place just felt right, so I after I landed, I I think I texted him a few hours later and asked him, hey, would you take me on, like I want to do this full time and really commit to this, would you be willing to work with me like, you know, five times a week kind of deal, basically make it my own accelerated program? And he's like, yeah, let's do it. So I got with him and that was it, I did commercial with him and then, or I finished my instrument off with him, did commercial with him, then I did my CFII and multi engine stuff with Michelle, the owner, who is the career instructor that owns the school.
Speaker 2:So it was, man, was just such an incredible experience. You know, a lot of flight schools, you're kind of just a number, right? There's so many students and it's just like a massive kind of machine, but at this place you're it's just such a family vibe, you know everyone there, everyone's super laid back, the planes were
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maintained so well because she had a guy that would just, I think it was a high school kid, he'd come in and clean them and clean the windows off and the planes were just great. So you know, I was a little surprised when I saw some of the bigger flight schools out there, you know, and and how they they were operated. It was truly heaven doing all my ratings there. I I really missed the place a lot.
Speaker 1:So one two things I want to talk about. One is, you know, after you got your private pilot, the rating. I would have gone back to that chief pilot, I would have slammed it on, but like, how are these landings? You know, it's like, what the exactly. What are you like how are you gonna tell me over and over again, alright, my landing was safe, did I break anything in the ACS?
Speaker 1:Did I break did I break What Show me what I broke other than the fact that you just are nitpicky. Right? Like That's it. It's okay to have standards, but like if my standards can pass an FAA checkride, then shut up and sign me off. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, I mean, I don't have a better way to say it. That that's just really frustrating. You would you would like to hope that they're not stealing trying to take your money, but I mean, it really does sound like they're just like, you know, what else is he gonna do? Where else is gonna go? He's not gonna go to Atlanta and go to this flight school and then you did.
Speaker 1:So good for you. And then the second thing, you're talking about choosing another flight school or even in the first time you choose a flight school. I had the same scenario. I was, I started all my training up in Columbus, Ohio at Ohio State. And then when I graduated, I was like, well, I'm not gonna stay in Columbus.
Speaker 1:The weather's terrible, so I'm gonna move south. I'm from Charlotte, North Carolina. So I moved back to Charlotte and I went to, ATP up in Concord. I looked through them and then I went to Fly Carolina down in Monroe. And then there's another one.
Speaker 1:The one I chose, Ayrwood, which is like you said, my favorite flight school. I love everyone there. It's a great
Speaker 2:right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, it's in Yes. Ayrwood's in Monroe, just outside of Charlotte. Yeah. So essentially Charlotte.
Speaker 1:But it's the smallest one. It was the crappiest looking one. Right? Like their facilities aren't gonna improve, impress anyone at all. But you walk in and you just know.
Speaker 1:Like this is just a family environment. Right? Like it was so chill. It was so welcoming. They had this really really, like, Texas, like, true old school, like, main flight instructor, who you know could fly anything, knew everything.
Speaker 1:He had a I think there was a champ on there that he was, like, in love with and flew all the time. It was really funny. And then some other flight trucks are great guys as well. But it was just the vibe, was the feeling when I walked in that impressed me and I knew that I would have a successful training at. The other places looked nicer, the planes probably weren't nicer, but like maybe they had more more variety.
Speaker 1:But it just it was just the way they they handled that initial interaction. And if any flights was listening to this, it's like figure out a way to perfect that initial reaction because it is the first five, know. Don't come off just thinking that, oh, they're gonna come here because we're the best. Like, no, if you're a jerk, I'm gonna go somewhere else. I'm not gonna drop a $100 because everyone else does.
Speaker 1:It's like that's not how I roll. Like, I will find the best place for me to to make sure I get on my ratings.
Speaker 2:That's it. And for the CFIs out there, you know, we all know it's a stepping stone job, right? There's no mystery. I wish that there was a way to be a career CFI and actually have it be financially viable because, I mean, I might have stuck with it. I I loved instructing, I really did and I miss it a lot.
Speaker 2:But at the end of the day, it's a shame, right, because a lot of CFIs, they're just doing it for hours. They don't really care about teaching or, you know, bettering the student's life and the student kind of is the one that suffers in that equation. And a lot of times the student doesn't even know they're suffering because they haven't been with other instructors that care, so they don't have anything to compare it to. So I would I would love it, man, if if the instructor's out there, it's like, you may not like it, but at least recognize you have such a powerful opportunity to make a positive impact in this person's life and that is like a sacred thing. So do it the best you can right up until the moment you walk out the door to your regional.
Speaker 2:You know, don't fall into that trap of just trying to build hours and just viewing the students as a vehicle for for hours and and money. That's that's not what it's about at all, you know.
Speaker 1:And I wasn't an instructor, I realized very quickly that wasn't something I wanted to do. But I feel like that is a hard trap to stay out of. Right? You know, you just get wrapped up in the mindset of I need my seniority number. I need to get to the airlines.
Speaker 1:And and it for some people, it's happening really fast, so it's hard not to get frustrated when you see other people in a similar kind of hour rating as you or wherever it may be, get hired already and you're still going. But just know that when you have that student, whether it's a private instrument commercial, you have the power to really kind of turn them off from this whole, you know, one bad flight still that young can be like, well, I don't want to do this anymore, like that guy's a jerk or all that other
Speaker 2:Exactly. Even worse, sometimes it gets to where the student thinks that they're not capable of succeeding. They they start believing that because they just keep struggling struggling. There was there's one story I'll tell right quick that this was probably the most special moment as a CFI that made me feel so good to do this job and made it all worth it. There was a student, this was when I was in Kennesaw at the one hundred forty one school.
Speaker 2:This guy came to me for a stage check. It was the first stage check-in private, which at my school was kind of the one you had to pass to solo the plane. So you basically have to kind of prove that you can safely pattern and land the aircraft, do do go arounds, stalls, all that kind of stuff. And man, his he just couldn't land the plane. I mean, he was flying it kind of nose first into the ground.
Speaker 2:We're porpoising down the runway. I'm having to take the controls, all that good stuff. But I I saw potential in them and you know, on these stage checks it's it's kind of fun because it's not like a check ride where you have to be totally serious, you can kind of do a little bit of instructing during the the stage check. So I did some work with him and man, I was seeing the light, I was seeing the progress being made. We got back, unfortunately I had to give the guy an unsat, right, because he couldn't land the airplane.
Speaker 2:But he he called me a few hours later and he's like, can I be your student? And you know, it's a little bit of a sensitive situation, right? I mean, his his normal instructor, I mean, that's kind of awkward, like, hey, I'm stealing your student that I just did this that I just failed. It's it's a weird Right. Situation.
Speaker 2:It it ended up happening though, I got this guy as my student and we worked together and as a teacher, right, you gotta you gotta go at it from different angles, you can't every student's a little different, what might work for one student won't
Speaker 1:work
Speaker 2:at all for the next student. So I just kept throwing stuff at the wall, see if it stuck and we we figured it out and man, this guy's landings, he did his stage checker maybe a couple weeks later and the examiner that did it, it obviously wasn't me because I I can't examine my own student, he was saying those were some of the best landings I ever saw, like of anybody. So the point there is, as for students, you know, don't always think that you can't do it or it's something wrong with you or you're not talented enough or whatever. Sometimes you just need a different perspective, a different approach to just make something click because we're all different, So man, that was I still keep in touch with this guy too, he's a Delta he works at Delta Tech Ops. Oh, nice.
Speaker 2:Awesome dude. But, yeah, that was that was a good memory.
Speaker 1:I think it's important for the CFI and for the student both. Right? It's like, alright, if it's not working out with the student, it's like go shop around. You don't have to put up with this, you don't have to do this, like there are other options. And for the CFI, it's like, alright, well, don't take that as like, I'm a terrible instructor.
Speaker 1:It's just like, well, learns a different way. My teaching skills and my teaching style just doesn't work. Or maybe it's another one where you're like, you just can't give up and you have to figure out how to make it click. Like, watch some YouTube videos, you know, ask your friends, like, hey, do you do in this situation? Like, it's always about just becoming the best instructor you can get.
Speaker 1:And that kinda goes from avoiding the trap of like chasing the hours and chasing the regional job and really focusing on how you can be the best instructor you can be, whether that's putting in extra work to your craft.
Speaker 2:That's it, Justin, man. And you know, if you instruct long enough, there's gonna be students that you end up losing yourself. My second ever student that I got ended up switching instructors because she just, we didn't click, know. My approach just, we didn't click and it's going to happen and you know, it's especially your first one, you feel kind of horrible about it, but at the end of the day, it's you want what's best for the student and if if they're not clicking with your approach and your Yeah. Vibe, you you and I tell my students when I when I first meet with them that, hey, if if it's not working out between us, I I will help you find another instructor that I think would work better for you because I want at the end of the day, it's about what's best for you as as the student, it's not about me, you know.
Speaker 1:When you first started this journey, you mentioned that you weren't sure if the airlines kind of well, you mentioned you didn't know what, like, what the path was. Like, thought about the airlines but weren't a 100% sure. When did it get narrowed down? When did you get super serious about this? Was it just when you realized that you could do this outside of the military or was it further down your training I
Speaker 2:say it was probably around three to four weeks into pry into my private pilot, maybe right around when I soloed or something. Yeah. Because I had talked to my instructor enough at that point that that I kind of had an idea of what the path was and I'd done my own research. That's one thing I would say to anyone out there that wants to do aviation is do your homework, like figure out what you need to do, what the different career progressions look like, and make a Yeah. Make a plan.
Speaker 2:And that that's kind of even though the plan wasn't super well defined, like where I do my training and and how exactly it was gonna happen, I at least had an idea of all the different stepping stones and kind of what what will be required. So, yeah, to answer your question, probably about three weeks three weeks into my Okay. Into my private. And that's about when I left my hotel job and really and committed like full time to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I am more the person that didn't have a plan. Was kind of just like, alright, well you know, if this doesn't work, I'll do that. If that doesn't work, it does that. But my wife is like, alright, we're looking at every single regional.
Speaker 1:Make a spreadsheet. What do they pay? What hours are they looking for? What are their bases? And we're gonna nice.
Speaker 1:I'm just like, yeah. And I was like, I can't do that. She's like, alright.
Speaker 2:I'll admit I didn't I didn't really do that either.
Speaker 1:No. Yeah. But the funny part was I'd even go the regional route. Right? But I didn't know that in my training where I wanted to go.
Speaker 1:I knew, regionals were an option, then I started falling in love with more the general aviation side and I like that. And I had connections in net jets, from playing football at Ohio State that led me to go that route. But what I'm getting at is dreams change. Have you had any changes? Like, was there one day you woke up, you're like, oh, I wanna fly the airlines.
Speaker 1:There's another day you're like, oh, maybe corporate would be cool or you dead set on airlines.
Speaker 2:Well, know, that that was one of the things about this whole pathway that I was kind of grateful for that because I was a career changer and I had a whole another life prior to aviation. Man, I didn't really care what I did in aviation, I was just really enjoying the ride and enjoying the journey because I wasn't crazy about hospitality, the hospitality industry when I was working in that world. So I knew what it was like to kind of hate your job not enjoy coming So to I just sort of had a blast in aviation through each milestone, I didn't really think too much about it, know, And that's some advice I would give to the people out there that are trying to do this is don't yeah, long term goals are important, know, it's great to have that goal of wanting to go to Delta and be the A350 captain or whatever, but that's not really going to help you, right? If you're a c student pilot, like that's too far out, know. You need like very clearly defined short term goals that you can actually achieve.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. You know, when I started, my goal initially was just, hey, let's solo. Let's solo and let's be as safe as possible, then hey, let's pass our private pilot checkride, do my cross countries, whatever. And you just keep doing it like that, you know, just being the best that you can be and whatever task is put in front of you and kind of trusting that things will work out, you know, because like say at Envoy, I had no plans to
Speaker 1:go to
Speaker 2:Envoy you know, regional or anything, it's just, just kind of did the best I could at every little thing I was doing and it led to an opportunity to interview and I did the best I could in the interview and kind of here I am at Envoy and I'm having a blast, it's it's awesome. But a few years ago if you asked, you know, I couldn't have I wouldn't have dreamed that I would have ended up here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What made you choose Envoy? I mean, obviously, you were doing all your training in in Delta world. Were you kind of everyone there is probably like Delta's the best, Delta's the best, like doing the
Speaker 2:Delta Kool Aid bad. And if my employer knows this, I I love American. American's great. But you know, my dad had the Delta SkyMiles credit card, my whole family is from the Atlanta area, I all we always flew Delta growing up and so I was Delta was it, you know. And UPS, you know, my uncle being a captain at UPS, I thought UPS was it, know, that or Delta man, that's all there was.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I was definitely kind of drinking the Delta coolly growing up and I still think it's an incredible airline. I I think it's a great company, great customer service, great pilots, great people. But you know, I've learned that there's there is more out there as well, so
Speaker 1:So happy with the decision then? You're you're enjoying the AA family?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's been a blast. And I think looking back to your original question, you know, why Envoy? Sorry, got a little sidetracked there. But when I was when I was doing my my training, I was I was looking at a lot of different influencers and podcasts and stuff just like I'm sure everyone is because you're trying to kind of learn about the profession.
Speaker 2:And I think you had Swain on here like a couple years ago, but I was I was watching a lot of his videos, this was like, I guess this would have been like when he was at Envoy and so he was making a lot of videos about the profession at Envoy bidding and you know, the the lifestyle of of the job and I thought it was really cool and I I had always kind of known that Envoy was kind of the, you know, a there's a couple a a a wholly owned out there, but on Envoy is sort of the the one that people tend to try to go to and the bases, I was really interested in that, I did my undergrad in Chicago, which is where I'm at now, I'm based in ORD. So the idea of getting to go back to Chicago was really exciting. So yeah, Envoy, I had always said it was my first choice. Ironically, it's the only airline that actually gave me an interview. So it was my first choice were there yeah.
Speaker 2:First I was just off the street, I I wasn't a cadet or anything like that. So I just kind of got in there and got got very fortunate. But but you know, my dad used to always say, you know, prep what is it? Luck is when preparation meets opportunity. So there was a lot of luck in my timing Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I was positioned well to to take that opportunity and and try to make the most of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. I mean, you definitely put yourself in a position to benefit from the luck, right, to benefit from the timing. Like there's other people that didn't get the job because they maybe didn't prepare as much, maybe there's something else happened, I don't know. But I think it's very important to have a goal.
Speaker 1:I think it's very important in your training even if you are very specific with it where you're like, I'm gonna be an American or Delta or pick your airline of choice, first officer or captain. But I also think it's very important to say yes to other opportunities that might take you off that path or might delay the path or might show you other cool parts of the aviation world. It could be, you know, like we're talking about Swaying. It could be, hey, let's go fly caravans in Hawaii. It's like, alright, well, maybe you love Hawaii and you wanna work for Hawaiian, now Alaska.
Speaker 1:Or maybe you're like, alright, I can fly caravans forever. Like, this is a cool, like, or, you know, you never know where something will take you. So I think it's important to say yes and cool opportunities happen. You can still have the end goal. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It maybe will be delayed, maybe it will go faster, you never know. But try to have fun and try to enjoy it and try to say yes to cool things. That's awesome. Amen. You never go back and fly caravan in Hawaii, right?
Speaker 1:Like, once you've come
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:An airline afloat, you're never going back.
Speaker 2:That's it. Yeah. You just do the best you can at every step along the way. You take the opportunities presented to you And maybe even if it feels like you're taking a chance because you just don't know where that opportunity is going to lead, you might meet you know, it's like in my case when I went to the fight school in Atlanta, that was a big risk for me at the time because I really loved where I was, I didn't know much about this other flight school. I like for example, I ended up having some students whose dads fly for Delta and they were able to write letters of recommendation for me and support that and you know, that was just, that was luck and that I got those students but you know, the part of it that wasn't luck is you still have to cultivate and nurture that relationship where the person likes you.
Speaker 2:So you you just never know is the point. And you just gotta do the best you can and just take every opportunity that that comes your way and just enjoy the ride.
Speaker 1:And number one, just be a good person. It's gonna come back to benefit you future. It's like, yeah, maybe if you don't get this job now, but then be like, oh, you know what? Like, I really like that kid though. Like, let's let's let's keep him in our in our track.
Speaker 1:Let's keep him in our path. Or maybe you don't get this one job and guy's like, hey, you know, a lot of people over here are hiring. I think you're a great kid, go over here, right? So just just be a good person, give back, mentor, just keep your keep everything out there and I think
Speaker 2:is it man. That is absolutely it. And you know, going back to the the music side of things, I think I mentioned a bunch that some of, a lot of the lessons learned in music I transferred to aviation. You know, one of the big ones I think about a lot is people skills. When you're a musician and you're playing in an orchestra as a substitute musician, like say the main player is sick and they call you in to replace them, it's a big, big lesson in reading the room and kind of reading other people and fitting in.
Speaker 2:It's huge. You know, not just playing, but your personality. Right? If you come into an orchestra and you're not part of the club and you start trying to be too aggressive or or overbearing with things, people are gonna notice and they're not gonna call you back even if you played great. It's it's really critical.
Speaker 2:So aviation is no no different. You know, take take my job for example, like, I may go a whole month and fly with a different captain every single trip. And even though we have SOPs, it's very interesting how different the the captains can be than just their manage I I call it their managerial style, like how they manage the cockpit, the vibe that they have. And, you know, as the FO, one of your job and this this was something my uncle told me really early on, still think about it, that one of your main job is is to make the captain's life easier, right, to support the captain. Now, you need to be willing to speak up if things are, you know, maybe getting sketchy, there's threats you're noticing, whatever the situation is but at the end of the day your job is to make the captain's life easier and support them and may and and help them out, you know.
Speaker 2:And part of that is reading, you got to do all the same things you do in music, you got to read the room, you've got to be flexible, you've got to kind of mold your approach to fit what they're doing so that you support them. And I think that's something a lot of people lack. Actually ironically, I just, going off of this, I just had one of my nine month probation review a couple weeks ago and we were talking after about the review and all that and they were telling me, you know, people that have issues with these reviews, it's usually not their flying skills, it's their personality Mhmm. That they're not able to read the room and and sort of, you know, know when to talk, know when not to talk, know when to be argumentative, when not to be. And that that's man, that that's just a skill you learn living life, you know.
Speaker 2:You're not really going to that as a student pilot and most likely, you're you're going to learn that working in service, being a musician, doing the military, whatever. But man, it's such an important skill. It's it's huge.
Speaker 1:I was gonna ask you, how do you think working in the hospitality or customer service world helped you? Because I worked at Apple when I was doing my ratings and I mean, I learned so much by having people be very upset with like
Speaker 2:Do you like why?
Speaker 1:Simple. Yeah. It's just I I learned so much. Most most importantly is I learned like what was important to to get mad about, to not get mad about, to let go, to not let go, you know. And I think that's important when you go into the cockpit is figuring out like, alright, what is important?
Speaker 1:Alright. Getting the flight safe. So maybe we don't agree on personally on certain things, but like we can at least just fly the plane and not have any problem. Right? Like, don't get so hung up on certain things if it's not gonna contribute to flying an airplane safe.
Speaker 1:But I was gonna ask is would you agree with your hospitality that really helped you out?
Speaker 2:Helped me so much.
Speaker 1:Music, but yeah, flying.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It it helped me so much when I look back at those experiences, especially when COVID happened and we lost all our staff because
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There was just some really challenging things. You know, you're standing at the desk, just think of it like this, you're standing at the desk, the property management system's crashed, the printer's broken, there's a thousand bells and whistles going off, you've got a line out the door, the person in front of you screaming at you because their card declined and they can't pay or whatever. And you've got to be able to stand there and just be chill and composed and you just kind of, you don't let it bother you and that's a skill, you know. Now, yeah, there's probably people that are that that are better at at it initially than others, but I I think that's a skill to be able or it's a skill but it's a learned skill to be able to Yeah. To be just zen in that moment.
Speaker 2:And for me, it got to the point, man, like, my my heart blow my heart rate didn't even increase at all. It was just like nothing. But what does this sound like? It sounds to me kinda like a, you know, an emergency you might deal with in the cockpit. Right?
Speaker 2:Thousands of bells, whistles going off and you just gotta be calm. Calm, cool and collecting and wind your watch. So those experiences in hospitality were invaluable, invaluable. Among other things yeah.
Speaker 1:If someone's listening to this and they're like, hey, you know, like I have a similar path, whether it's skating, whether it's music, whatever hospitality, whatever it may be, and they reach out to you or they listen to this and this is the opportunity to hear from you, what would be kind of three tips or three things you could tell them, to put themselves in the right spot to to have that luck or to, you know, get hired at a good time?
Speaker 2:Sure. So I'll I'll frame this under the assumption maybe they're like high school age, because I think my recommendations would be different for someone that's older versus someone that's that's younger. So so we'll just assume maybe this kid's like 17 or something and maybe starting their senior year of high school kind of thing. Number one, I would tell them, get your private in high school, see if it's something you actually want to do. I think a lot of people, one of their problems is they when they start, they don't really know what they're even trying to get themselves into.
Speaker 2:They, you know, at least when you start in high school you can kind of work your way into it, it can be more relaxed, more casual and you can kind of see if it's really something you're interested in. So that's the first step I would say, is maybe try to get your private early on. Step number two is is do your homework, you know, figure out how you're gonna achieve your your dreams. Obviously, it doesn't have to be super specific like mine but what you know, research the flight schools, what flight schools are out there, what is one forty one and sixty one? You can already be better than me by knowing that because I had no idea and and figure it out.
Speaker 2:I would say, if if I could just wave my wand and like start over and be 17 again, I would probably go to like a one forty one program for for like a university track sort of program where I could do my ratings, get a degree, a college degree, which I think at this time is is a big deal, I think it's important to have a college degree because the airlines can be more picky now, right? Hiring is not like it was a couple years ago and you have access to the cadet programs, which are huge. I mean, saw that at Envoy, our class was about half cadet and half off the street. The cadets get the top seniority, so they're up there in the front row, know, all I'm a cadet and we're all in the back, all of us off the street, you know, people. And we all got along fine, but there's no doubt that they had a really good deal, know, top seniority, they got to get through training faster because they didn't have as many gaps as we did, they sort of allocated the resources for them and man, they had a great deal.
Speaker 2:So I would tell a student, get into those cadet programs because when hiring slows down, a lot of the times the guys and girls in those programs, they get kind of priority, they get kind of the first seat at the table and that's huge, right? Especially when hiring is not not so good. So that would be the second, that was a long winded answer of saying do like a one forty one university track.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good ad for the cadet programs though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not saying 61 can't work though, I'm proof of that. I did all my training 61 and But made it there was a lot of luck that went into it. And I would say tip number three and I sort of have mentioned this a couple of times but I think it's just that important is don't get too caught up in the end result, you know, really try to do the very best you can at every little step along the way. Like when you're a student pilot, your goal is not to be, you know, a first officer at Gojet or or envoy or Endeavor or whatever, it's to be the best student pilot you can be, to show up to each lesson prepared, be inquisitive, be curious and ask questions and really be a student of the craft, you know. Right.
Speaker 2:And same thing as you work your way through all the way, you know as a CFI. Whether you like being an instructor or not, who cares? Like be the best instructor you can be and try to better yourself as a CFI, know, watch podcasts, read stuff, read books, stay up on the you know, industry and be the best instructor you can be and just keep doing that, you know. And eventually hopefully it'll work and you'll make your way to Delta or United or American or where wherever you you're trying to get to.
Speaker 1:Wherever you wanna go.
Speaker 2:Also take it one step
Speaker 1:at I'll a piggyback on that, just enjoy the process, enjoy the grind. Because no not everyone goes back to fly one seventy twos, you know. Not everyone's gonna go back to go fly small planes. And probably, I mean, let's be real, this might be the last time or last chance you have to fly these planes and have that kind of freedom of just going on one seventy two, going to get barbecue, going to get this. So enjoy it while you can, because it's not going to be there forever.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right, Justin, man. It's and I miss it a ton, you know, especially flying with with my dad, we flew probably hundreds of hours together in the Cessna.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Hopefully someday we get to go back up, so I don't know how, maybe you'll get a I'll buy a plane or do something, but it's I miss it a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, so so enjoy it. Well David, appreciate your time man, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. It was a lot of fun, think it'll be a good one.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Justin. It's a it's a pleasure, man. And thanks for, you know, putting on this incredible podcast. Like I said, I've been listening to this this thing since I've started flight training. It's been a huge resource and help, so thanks for doing what you do.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it, Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Well, I hope you have a good day, man. Have a good one.
Speaker 2:You too, Justin. Take care.
Speaker 1:That's a wrap on episode 362. Insane. That's a lot of episodes. That's a lot of talking. I should probably take a break.
Speaker 1:I'm tired. No. I'm just kidding. We're not gonna stop. We're not gonna stop.
Speaker 1:But, Davionation, thank you so much for listening. I appreciate you and the time you're taking. I used to say this all the time. I'm a say it again, know, go take your dad's phone. Go take your mom's phone.
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Speaker 1:I hope you're having a great day. As always, happy fun. The Pilot to Pilot Podcast is brought to you by Ground School from the Finer Points, the indispensable training app for new and experienced pilots. Visit learnthefinerpoints.com backslash Justin to save 10% off your first year.