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From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
[00:00:00] Carol Eugene Park: Hello, friendly alumni. Welcome back to From Here Forward, your favorite UBC Podcast Network podcast. I'm Carol and she's Jeevan.
[00:00:18] Jeevan Sangha: That's me.
[00:00:19] Carol Eugene Park: Okay, Jeevan. So on a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your mobility levels compared to like, I don't know, five years ago?
[00:00:25] Jeevan Sangha: I'm operating at lower capacity than usual, unfortunately, because of a car accident. But I'd say I went from like a solid eight to like a dwindling two. How about you?
[00:00:35] Carol Eugene Park: You know, I used to be at a nine and now I'm a three. Kind of like you, but not that serious. I organize my life. This is so dramatic, but like, before chronic pain, and then after chronic pain. So I had a, uh, I had a back injury in like late 2020. My mobility was like basically not there. So I had the whole, like, fun, I'm eighty years old in a twenty-nine year old girl body, or whatever that analogy is. But, thanks to physical therapy, we are on the mends. I can actually sit down now for more than twenty minutes, which was not the case back in 2020. So, I'm trying to hit a seven, but I'm still at a three right now.
[00:01:10] Jeevan Sangha: Okay, that's not dramatic at all. If it was tough to sit, that feels very serious, Carol. Don't gaslight yourself. I relate to that. You know, I had my first head injury in 2017. It totally spun me off my axis. I mean, by the time I found a good balance of movement, the pandemic hit and I felt like, you know, the ways that I usually exercised weren't accessible to me anymore.
[00:01:29] So, you know, I realized that even now what worked when I was eighteen just doesn't work for me now. I want to be forever young, but that's not how life works.
[00:01:37] Carol Eugene Park: I wish you would have sung that, but it's okay. I know you're not a singer. But to go off that train of, um, quoting songs, guess this one. You tell me time has done changed me. That's fine. I've had a good run. I know I used to be crazy. That's because I used to be young. Does that sound familiar?
[00:01:55] Jeevan Sangha: Miley Cyrus. Yeah.
[00:01:57] Carol Eugene Park: Bingo. Amazing. Love that for you. Pop-cultured.
[00:01:59] Jeevan Sangha: That was so great. You know, before Carol starts spitting out more song lyrics about being young, let's jump into today's conversation.
[00:02:07] We connected with Jordyn Rice and Sarah Heath from UBC's Aging, Mobility, and Cognition Lab, led by Dr. Theresa Liu-Ambrose, we talk to all things exercise, cognitive health, and mobility for people sixty-five and up.
[00:02:19] Carol Eugene Park: And if you're not sixty-five and up, like me and Jeevan, uh, you might be thinking to yourself, this doesn't affect me. But Jordyn mentioned one very fascinating stat that I didn't know about because I don't know anything anymore. Um, one in five Canadians are over the age of sixty-five, which is kind of like a crazy statistic. So, it might not directly affect us young people, but it is quite probable that we know someone over sixty-five who might benefit from learning about this research, but also participate in the lab study. More on that later.
[00:02:51] Jeevan Sangha: All right. Well, that's a great segue into our chat for today.
[00:02:55] Jordyn Rice: I am Jordyn Rice. I'm a physical therapist by training and now a postdoctoral fellow at the University of British Columbia in the Aging, Mobility, and Cognition lab. So essentially what I do is work in research to find the best ways to use exercise to promote, uh, healthy aging.
[00:03:14] Sarah Heath: And my name is Sarah, and I am a research assistant and a recruitment coordinator in the same lab, so the Aging Mobility and Cognitive Health Lab, which is directed by Dr. Theresa Liu-Ambrose. And as Jordyn mentioned, we're focusing more on the impacts of exercise in preventing cognitive decline and also preventing major mobility disability.
[00:03:40] Jeevan Sangha: Awesome. So Sarah, what drove you to get involved in this work?
[00:03:45] Sarah Heath: Yeah, so I did my undergraduate studies in kinesiology at the University of the Fraser Valley. Um, and I grew up as a dancer, so that's kind of what led me to pursuing kinesiology. I also grew up with, like when I was twelve years old, I found out that I had scoliosis. Um, so I think just, you know, recovering from that and going to physio myself. I think that's kind of what inspired me to go into kinesiology and work with people, working with patients. Um.
[00:04:22] Jeevan Sangha: And Jordyn, do you want to share a bit?
[00:04:24] Jordyn Rice: I was one of those weird people that knew from a very, very young age that I wanted to be a physical therapist. I had some research experience in neuroscience in my undergrad degree. So then I went to PT school. I got this really awesome clinical training, um, and a door open to do a PhD where I started looking more into physical therapy neuroscience. Um, and in that, just kind of have had this really big interest in this relationship between our physical health and our mobility and our cognitive health.
[00:04:56] I'm now continuing on that path, um, here at the University of British Columbia. And taking this to kind of the next level where we're, I am getting to learn how to do this in the context of these really large behavioral randomized control trials. I am working with some really awesome experts in the field of aging.
[00:05:15] Sarah Heath: Yeah, so I have been working in the lab for the past two years. Um, and so essentially the lab runs several different research studies. Mainly working with older adults ages sixty-five and above. And we've done a variety of different studies, as I mentioned, mainly looking at the effects of exercise on preventing cognitive decline, um, and preventing people from having future falls, especially if they're at a high risk for having falls.
[00:05:44] We work closely with the Falls Prevention Clinic as well, um, to work and provide people with the resources they need to prevent them from having future falls. We've done some studies looking at the impacts of outdoor exercise versus indoor exercise on cognitive health and physical health as well. And then we also have a new study, um, that is starting up called the SuPA Mobility Study.
[00:06:11] And that study is looking at the effects of health coaching and group education, um, on preventing mobility decline. And so essentially we run all these studies, we do a lot of physical tests with our participants, a lot of cognitive testing.
[00:06:27] Jeevan Sangha: So tell us about the Supporting Physical Activity for Mobility Study? Who's leading it and what are some of the goals?
[00:06:34] Jordyn Rice: Yeah, so this is a study that is being carried out again in our lab, the Aging Mobility and Cognitive Health Lab, which is directed by Teresa Liu-Ambrose, who's one of the principal investigators on this study. And so essentially what we're doing in this study is one of our co investigators did a previous study, where they found that if we can get people who have limited mobility, meaning these are people who have difficulty getting around in their environment.
[00:06:57] So this could be something like a challenge getting up from a chair, walking around a room, doing those sorts of things. If we can get them to just increase their physical activity by about forty-three minutes per week, that this has a major impact on improving their mobility. amongst other health outcomes. But again, it's really hard to get people to do physical activity.
[00:07:17] So what we're doing in this study now is we're saying, okay, well, we know that if we can get people to do this dose of physical activity, that we can have impacts on their mobility over their life course. And so we are using a health coaching intervention to see if that will work to help promote individuals to reach this sort of about fifty minutes of physical activity per week.
[00:07:37] And if we can get them to do that, will that also improve their mobility amongst, again, other health outcomes? When we think about exercise, we often think about prescribing exercise in terms of these fit principles. So we think about things like the frequency, the intensity, the time, and the type of exercise. And these are all really important characteristics of developing an exercise program. When we think about health coaching, we're more so approaching this from a behavior change perspective, right? So not so much, though, what are you doing, but how are we going to get you there to do that? And so this is more of a patient centered process that's based in behavior change theory.
[00:08:15] And we use that to kind of help an individual come up with a health behavior or goal, in this case it's physical activity, and then we work with them to get them to that space.
[00:08:24] Sarah Heath: Essentially, I work one on one with our participants, and I kind of create an individualized plan with them to meet their wellness and exercise goals. So for the actual study, we're looking at increasing their physical activity levels to fifty minutes per week. So how do they want to meet that goal? And so I kind of, listening to, you know, what kind of exercise they want to be doing, what are their ideas, and then I'm working with them to kind of create this plan.
[00:08:55] And then I check in with them every so often, so usually every two weeks at the beginning, to see how the plan's going. So, were you able to complete the plan as we set out to do at the beginning? Were you having any challenges with completing your plan? And then from there we can always make modifications.
[00:09:15] And so we do that for six months. And so again, the end goal is to have them exercising fifty minutes per week. But of course, we know that with any sort of plan, people are always going to have lapses. So there's going to be times where life happens and it's difficult to carry out your plan as per directed.
[00:09:35] So. I think we anticipate that, and we give our patients strategies to essentially know how to respond when they do have lapses in their plants, just to better prepare them.
[00:09:47] Jeevan Sangha: Awesome. So what I'm hearing is I really need a health coach in my life. That sounds like super helpful. You both mentioned and touched on like that fifty minutes a week, you know, and how important getting that exercise is for folks, I'm sure of all ages. But it's hard to get people to exercise.
[00:10:05] So, I'm curious as to why, like, what are some of the common barriers to exercise that you've noticed folks face, um, and how do they overcome them?
[00:10:14] Jordyn Rice: Before I answer that question, I want to clarify one thing here. And this is really important from both a research and a health perspective in general. We are talking about fifty minutes per week, and this is in a very particular group of people, specifically older adults.
[00:10:29] So we're talking people over the age of sixty-five to seventy, and people who have limited mobility. So this magic number of fifty, well, it's not quite so magic, is really when we're thinking about improving things like mobility. So this is a basic level of, again, how are we getting around within our environment. And that fifty minutes, and people who are already having limitations in that, is really beneficial.
[00:10:51] Current recommendations are for all of us to be getting about a hundred and fifty minutes of moderate to vigorous physical activity per week, right? So we're looking to hit a little bit more than that, especially, you know, if we have no other sort of, uh, existing conditions and things like that. Again, cool part of this study is we're saying we know that there's a minimum dose that if you can't do anything and you already have this limited mobility, let's get you to do that.
[00:11:14] Now, when we're speaking more generally and broadly, we should all be hitting those hundred and fifty minutes per week. And as you said, it's really hard. And I'll be the first to admit, I'm an exercise researcher, I'm a physical therapist, and I have moments where I don't hit a hundred and fifty minutes per week. Even though I know the benefits of doing so and how important it is.
[00:11:34] So when we think about barriers to exercise, these can be all sorts of things. So sometimes with our older adults in particular, this could be a lack of knowledge or access to things. Some of it can also be misconceptions of, you know, what is exercise? I don't want to go to a gym, right? So it could be finding other solutions that, you know, they're not imagining wearing spandex and lifting really heavy weights or something like that.
[00:11:57] And then I would say a common one that kind of exists across the lifespan is always time. That's one of the big things that people are always talking about is that they don't have time. So those are two of the big ones that I would say. Time, access, and then finally just kind of the knowledge of what is exercise, how do I do it, and what does that look like?
[00:12:16] Sarah, do you have any other ones that you'd want to add to that in terms of like what people are saying with you on the health coaching visits?
[00:12:21] Sarah Heath: In terms of barriers to exercise, I think another thing we have to consider is some of our participants are also caregivers, so they're also taking care of maybe their spouse.
[00:12:33] I've had participants who have a spouse that is diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia, or people with higher needs who need to be supervised pretty much twenty-four seven. And so of course that is quite a barrier to be able to carry out their exercise plan. So you have to be pretty creative in finding ways to get them to exercise in their busy day, right? And how can they exercise in a way where they can still be supervising the person that they are caregiving to? Uh, some of them are also watching their grandchildren, things like that.
[00:13:08] Carol Eugene Park: So what I'm hearing is exercise, we almost have to change our framework with what is exercise, like it's not just going to Lagree or like a hot yoga class or like deadlifting kind of thing.
[00:13:19] Sarah Heath: Exactly. And so, you know, we've tried to come up with a few creative ways to suggest to our participants of how, you know, how to exercise at home, in a way that's convenient, and I think, I remember Jordyn gave this really great example of squatting while your tea boils. Even if it's only for two minutes, even if it's only such a short bout of exercise, a little bit goes a long way.
[00:13:44] Carol Eugene Park: So I go to physical therapy, and my physical therapist is always like, you know, just like, get up and roll your ankles, you know, every twenty minutes, and then like, you know, when you're watching Netflix, like, do your thing, and I'm like, I get that. And sometimes I do it, but that's a lot of multitasking for me.
[00:14:01] Jordyn Rice: One of the things that it's important for us to think about is when it comes to exercise, we're being, uh, very specific with, with exercise. So this is, you're doing something with the goal of increasing fitness. This is very intentional. When we think about physical activity, there's a little bit of a nuance there, right?
[00:14:16] So exercise is, you know, very intentional, deliberately trying to improve fitness or some sort of outcome, whereas our physical activity is just kind of any sort of movement that we might be doing. So these could be things like an active commute, walking to the bus stop, or this could be something like gardening and planting flowers or lettuce.
[00:14:33] Physical activity could be I don't know, hanging out in the backyard playing with your dog, right? So when we think about these sort of distinctions, it's really important to also keep in mind that if we're not doing anything, doing something is going to make a big difference. And so if you're not doing anything right now, then yeah, when you boil your tea or your water for tea in the morning, see if you can do air squats while the kettle is boiling or kind of mix that in.
[00:14:58] If you're going to the park with your dog and walking them around, can you build in some sort of extra walking and pacing back and forth as opposed to, you know, throwing a ball and letting them run. Like maybe you chase the ball with them or something along those lines. Now, if you're already doing some amount of physical activity, then we might sort of think about taking that to the next step, is there a way that we could get you to do a bit of strength training?
[00:15:20] Because we know that that's really important for things like our muscle mass and bone health, especially as we get older. If you're already doing that, then we can start to get more, again, intentional about the dose intensity and things. But yeah, exercise doesn't have to be a hot yoga class. It could be a ten minute, you know, chair sort of workout that you might do from your living room, because that's what you have time for. It takes a lot of different forms. And the important thing is there are a lot of different types of movement and physical activity we can do because not everybody likes to go for a run, for instance. So if I tell you that the only way to live a happy, healthy life is to go for a run every day and you hate running, this probably isn't going to work for you.
[00:16:00] But if you really like to do yoga, for instance, and I say, okay, great. Then like, let's get you to do that a bit more than you are already. Then you're probably going to have more success doing something like that.
[00:16:12] Jeevan Sangha: That makes a lot of sense. I feel like people put a lot of pressure on themselves too, to like work out in a certain way. There's all these ideals out there and I think building a system that works best for you is such a great way to start. I wanted to explore a little bit about this connection between exercise and some of like those positive outcomes that we were talking about. Maybe we'll start with Sarah, and then Jordyn you can add on. What is the connection between exercise and cognitive health?
[00:16:37] Sarah Heath: So we know that of course exercise is beneficial for our cognitive function. But some of the questions we have in our research is, what kind of exercise and at what dosage? So one of the studies that we started back in 2017 that is just about to finish here before the summer time, we have participants exercising for six months, four times a week.
[00:17:00] And they are randomly assigned to one of four exercise groups. So either aerobic training, resistance training, a combination of both, or a balance and tone program. And so, you know, the hope is that after the study we'll be able to come up with recommendations of what type of exercise. Is resistance training alone the best, or is it best if we combine it with aerobic training? Looking into things like that and also the dosage. So is four times a week enough? For one hour for each class? So we're trying to come up with what are the guidelines.
[00:17:34] Jordyn Rice: We know that exercise is good for our brain health. People who have better fitness levels have better cognitive health and also when we look at some of the structural pieces of the brain as well.
[00:17:43] I think that where we're really trying to, to go with the exercise for brain health and cognitive function world right now is, so as a physical therapist, right? I can tell you maybe the type of exercise that you should be doing if you want to improve your heart health. So we know that hitting these sort of aerobic markers are going to be the thing that's going to make your heart better and your vasculature better.
[00:18:08] And I can say, if you want to increase your strength and your muscle mass, that we should be doing this type of strength training. And these sorts of doses are really beneficial for that, right? So we have two distinct types of exercises, that both have really important functions and I can prescribe them in a more tailored way for a desired result.
[00:18:26] When it comes to the cognitive side, we're still trying to get very specific about what that prescription looks like. Because when we think about cognitive function, there's a lot of different types of cognition. So we can think about things like our attention, our memory, which is a big one because a lot of this research is dedicated towards like the prevention of Alzheimer's and dementia and those things.
[00:18:47] So we often think about memory. But what do we do if we want to maintain our memory specifically or our overall brain health and cognitive function? These things are a little bit more nuanced still, I would say.
[00:18:57] Sarah Heath: And another thing just to tie into that is there's also some sex differences as well. So we have also started another study last year that's looking at the impact of HIIT training, so high intensity interval training with perimenopausal individuals. And so that's because we've seen that perimenopause does have an impact on cognition and memory. So we are investigating, you know, can HIIT training be a good way to prevent continual declining cognition through perimenopause.
[00:19:31] Carol Eugene Park: It's the way my body shriveled when you said HIIT. My least favorite thing in the world, god.
[00:19:39] Sarah Heath: Exactly. Yeah, it is very intimidating, I think for some people, but I think what is very attractive about HIIT is that it's short duration, high intensity. So you know that you can go to a class and it might only be forty or fifty minutes and then you're done for the day.
[00:19:55] So for some people, that's a little more attractive and I think especially with the population we're working with for this particular study, they don't have a lot of time in their day because some of them have families and a high demanding job. And so, you know, it's hard to find the time to exercise. So that's kind of why we, one of the reasons why we went with HIIT training.
[00:20:15] Carol Eugene Park: Since the studies are primarily, kind of, not young people. Young people who are ignorant might say, you know, the cognitive function thing that's declining, like, that's just part of aging. Like, why bother with, you know, exercising? Like, it's just part of our life cycle. What would you say to those types of comments?
[00:20:34] Jordyn Rice: Oh man, I think that would be a really hard thing for me to hear in general. So, there are some natural changes that happen, right, with cognition as we age. But there's normal cognitive aging and then there's pathological cognitive aging. And the reality is, while we may be young now, you know, the current life expectancy of Canadians is somewhere around eighty years of age.
[00:20:59] So at some point, the likelihood is you might be an older adult. And if not, currently one in five people is over the age of sixty-five. So there are a lot of older adults around us. And so I think that, being mindful that our lifestyle has a really big impact on how we age and maintaining our cognitive function, I would hope would empower people to say that you don't have to be perfect about it, right?
[00:21:24] But that there are things that we can do to try to maintain our independence and our health span as we get older. And this may not only impact our individual selves, but this might be beneficial for our parents, for our communities, our neighbors, right? Because again, one in five. So if you take a look around a room, good chance is, like there's going to be a fair amount of older adults in that room.
[00:21:46] And making sure that we age well really helps prevent not only the burden of the individual who is aging, but the burden and that impact on families and communities in our healthcare system as well.
[00:21:57] Jeevan Sangha: This has been touched on throughout our conversation. But are there any resources you would recommend for anyone looking to start or restart their exercise journey? You know, for whatever reason, it's, they've taken a break from it for a while and it's feeling super intimidating. Like where do you think is a good place to start?
[00:22:13] Jordyn Rice: Again, I think that there are so many different entry points to this depending on people's background, right? So it might look different if you've taken a break before, if you have some amount of previous knowledge of exercise, for instance. I would say one of the initial things that can be really helpful is to find some sort of accountability buddy, right? So sometimes that's often why people fall off the exercise train because it might be difficult for people to do on their own, right? So thinking about the study we were talking about, this is kind of the novelty of having a health coach is you have that accountability, somebody who's working with you, but also pairing up with a friend and telling them your goals, what that's going to look like and checking in with them or finding a person to exercise with.
[00:22:52] Some people might have resources that could be, you know, going in and seeing a personal trainer or a kinesiologist or somebody to have that supervised structured thing, but that's not feasible for everybody. There are a lot of good resources that you can find, you know, if you want to watch like a video or something like that to do at home.
[00:23:09] So if you don't have the access point to enter, say a gym type setting, then maybe that is finding some YouTube videos that, that are out there. Um, other things that I would say are, you know, just starting with some sort of small goal and getting really specific about this. And so Sarah could probably touch a bit more on this, but we use a principle called smart goal setting when we're doing the health coaching.
[00:23:32] And so the idea is that from a behavior perspective, if we talk about, I'm just going to exercise. Well, what does that mean? That sounds like a really daunting thing that, you know, we can't ever check that off of our to do list necessary, necessarily. But if I say, okay, what kind of exercise am I going to do? Well, I'm going to go for a walk. How long are you going to walk for? Twenty minutes. Well, how many days per week are you going to walk for? Three days per week. Now I've taken this idea of exercise or physical activity and I've turned it into something that I can actually look at and measure and see, did I achieve this?
[00:24:07] Sarah Heath: When I'm working with my participants, we get really, really specific about what their plan involves, what days of the week, what specific time. And research even shows that when someone writes down their goals and tells someone else, they're more likely to follow through with completing their plan. Uh, and reaching their goals.
[00:24:30] So I think that's the nice thing about working with a health coach. They help you get really specific about it. What kinds of exercise you enjoy. You know, what makes you happy, what makes you feel good. And then checking in to see how things are going along the way. Usually, we start off with a dosage that's pretty reasonable. And then as the weeks go on we, you know, increase the intensity and the duration of exercise.
[00:24:54] Jordyn Rice: I think that's another common problem that happens, especially for people who have a background in exercise. Maybe you take a break, and then you go back, and you try to do exactly what you were doing before. And that can be really uncomfortable. And if you have an uncomfortable experience, you're probably not going to look forward to that next gym session, you know, the next day. So also being mindful of, you know, starting small and checking in and seeing how that feels. So again, anything is better than nothing, especially if you haven't been doing anything for a while.
[00:25:22] And then the practical piece of set smart goals, get really specific about this stuff and find an accountability buddy. And those are both things that I think should be accessible, hopefully. to most people. And if you want to take it to the next level, then you can get professionals and people involved. And obviously if you have any health conditions or, you know, concerns or worries, then check in with a health professional, you know, prior to doing those things or to get some insights about any ways that you might need to modify as well to be safe.
[00:25:50] Carol Eugene Park: How can UBC alumni or community members get involved in the lab, research, donation, investment, all that stuff?
[00:25:58] Sarah Heath: Yeah, if you want to get involved in our research, the Centre for Aging Smart, which is co-directed by Janice Eng and Teresa Liu-Ambrose, who is our supervisor, you can definitely check out their website for more information about, you know, some of the research that they're doing at the centre. They're essentially looking to positively impact the health and quality of life of individuals living with the effects of aging or disability.
[00:26:24] And so they are developing different solutions for mobility, rehabilitation, and technology. So we can include the website link. And then in terms of our research lab, of course, if you're interested in participating in any of our studies, or you have a family member or friend who might be eligible, uh, the SuPA Mobility Study is currently recruiting participants ages seventy to eighty-nine who have limited mobility. And then we are also recruiting people ages forty to fifty-five for our perimenopause study.
[00:26:59] Jeevan Sangha: Is there anything else you want to add about your work, about exercise, health coaching, anything we touched on today that we might've missed?
[00:27:06] Jordyn Rice: Yeah, just to kind of reinforce, uh, the message, which is a little bit is better than nothing. So if you're not doing anything right now, just start moving a bit. Find a buddy, find what you like to do, and just start doing something. And if you're already doing something, you know, do a little bit more, get a little bit more specific, and just build from there. And again, just know that there are resources out there. So whether that's joining an exercise study as, you know, free entry point into those things, Or meeting with a community health professional, um, or even, you know, going on a little bit of a deep dive on, on the internet as well.
[00:27:41] Carol Eugene Park: Great. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. This was great.
[00:27:45] Jordyn Rice: Thank you guys.
[00:27:46] Sarah Heath: Thank you so much.
[00:27:48] Jeevan Sangha: That was so great. I feel like we young people know it's important to move our bodies, but sometimes it's difficult to change our perspectives on exercise, but even just movement.
[00:27:56] Carol Eugene Park: Or you know, even like exercising for aesthetics. Like you said, I really did like Jordyn's framing of differentiating between exercising and movement, international. That intentionality is so important. Being intentional is super important. That whole conversation did remind me that I need to be consistent with my physical therapy exercises, even if they're a hassle or really annoying to do because health is wealth.
[00:28:19] Jeevan Sangha: Now I feel that I also am behind on my physio exercises, but, you know, It's a good reminder. And, I mean, what's good for us isn't always easy at first, but it's nice to know that there are small attainable ways to build lasting patterns that can serve us in the long run.
[00:28:32] Carol Eugene Park: True.
[00:28:33] Thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling your feels, please drop us a review, uh, because those reviews be a little lonely. You can find me on Twitter @CarolEugenePark.
[00:28:48] Jeevan Sangha: And me, @JeevanKSangha, From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Podium Podcast Company.