Build Your SaaS

Ben Orenstein, Derrick Reimer, and Justin Jackson discuss anxiety, increasing app usage, and tricks for building anticipation.

Show Notes

Show notes

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Creators & Guests

Host
Justin Jackson
Co-founder of Transistor.fm
Guest
Ben Orenstein
Co-founder and CEO of Tuple
Editor
Chris Enns
Owner of Lemon Productions
Guest
Derrick Reimer
Founder of SavvyCal

What is Build Your SaaS?

Interested in building your own SaaS company? Follow the journey of Transistor.fm as they bootstrap a podcast hosting startup.

Justin:

Hey, folks. Justin Jackson here. Once again, I'm without my wingman, John Buda. We weren't able to record, our cofounder call. He's been really busy at work.

Justin:

I've been really busy as well. It just didn't happen. But I can't leave you folks without an episode. And I wanted to share with you this conversation I had with Derek Reimer and Ben Orenstein on their podcast art of product podcast.com. Go check it out.

Justin:

Just a really great it's just really great to chat with other people who are kind of experiencing the same things as you at the same time. So Derek Rimer was the co founder of Drip which was acquired by Leadpages. He is now starting a new product called level. App and, just kind of building it from the ground level like John and I are. And Ben Orenstein, he's done a bunch of cool things.

Justin:

He's known for, refactoring for rails. He's known for a really cool podcast called Giant Robots. And he is building a remote pair programming tool called Tuple with, I believe, 2 other founders. And we just had this kind of freedom to share with each other our anxieties, what we're struggling with at this kind of moment in time. And so here's just a little bit of that conversation.

Speaker 2:

So, welcome to Art of Product, Justin Jackson.

Justin:

Hey. Thanks. Good to be here.

Speaker 2:

How's it going?

Justin:

I wanna say, yeah, things are great, but things are good. Things are you know, it feels like there's a lot It's a lot of work to build something, especially on the side. So I would also say Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Tell me about it.

Justin:

I feel tired and feel like it's going slow and all that all that stuff.

Jason:

Totally. Yeah. I definitely wanna dig into that. One of

Speaker 2:

my explicit questions for you is, like, how's your brain? What's your mental state like? I asked Derek this too. But, yeah,

Jason:

I think we could do it.

Speaker 2:

We'll all commiserate, perhaps.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Can I can I ask you a question, Ben?

Speaker 4:

Always.

Justin:

So I I go to Twitter, and there's nothing about Tupelo on

Speaker 2:

on rep.

Justin:

I go to benornstein.com. There's nothing about tupil. There if I go to your media tweets, There's no screenshots that I can see at least not in the first little bit is that a is that a a purposeful decision like you're purposely not building in public or you're purposely not sharing too much?

Speaker 2:

I, it's it's sort of a failure is is one part of it. Like, part of it is just like, no. That's bad, and you shouldn't do it this way, and I I'm messing up. Part of it is just that, like, I don't have a visual thing to or or, like, a website or a landing page or anything to share yet.

Justin:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So it's, like, I do wanna like, as soon as we launch our landing page, all of those places will point at Drupal for sure. Although, I take your point, and I agree with it, I think, which is, like, I could still be sharing some things, like updates and teasing things. Well, just Screenshots.

Justin:

Even just a pinned tweet or something to say, hey, it's Ben. This is what I'm working on right now, and it's not ready yet, but that, ironically again when you've built relationships with folks and you've you've People are kind of interested in what you're doing they will heart and retweet those sometimes because they're like oh look what ben's doing And, they just make great pinned tweets because then you can see, oh, this is what he's up to now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. This is is not ideal. You're you're right to point it out.

Justin:

I think that's good advice actually for anybody is is to at least it's also good practice for saying, you could say, it's it's like exactly the elevator pitch or the elevator question. Like, hey, Ben. What are you doing right now? Oh, well, you know how screen sharing is a real pain in the ass. Yeah.

Justin:

I mean or pair programming over the web or whatever. Yep. And I'm actually literally, like, mining my brain for, like, what the hell is 2 pole right now? I'm guessing. I think it's screen sharing and and pair programming.

Speaker 2:

Remote pair programming is there.

Justin:

And so you know how that all sucks? Yeah, that totally sucks. Well, we're building a tool that makes it way better because of this and this and this. Well, that makes a great pin tweet whether you have 50 followers or a 1,000 or whatever that you're practicing telling your story. And Mhmm.

Justin:

Yeah. I gotta get better at this too. Like I still don't always have that even nailed myself. Like, you know, what does what makes transistor better? Well, you know, I got it's hard to articulate those things, but when you practice them it becomes easier, I think.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I've I've been holding back because I didn't have somewhere to send people, where it's like, I'm working on a thing, and you should, know about it. Yeah. It's should know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But it's like, what I really wanna I I've kind of been, like, saving some of that, ammunition, I guess, for, like

Justin:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you should go here

Justin:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And sign up for updates, I guess.

Speaker 4:

But maybe that's I mean, something you could do too, like, the product the product hunt ship page. That's what I did for a few weeks. Like and I just set up a it's actually up on GitHub, like levelhq/website, and it's just a static site with an Iframe. So I put that on the whole lot app for a little while. And the nice thing about that is it it has a little bit of the social, social proof built into it, where if you're on signed in to Product Hunt, it shows who of your friends have also subscribed.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Speaker 4:

And you can import your existing list into there. So, I mean, I it didn't really, like every time someone would subscribe, I'd sort of watch and see if there's a little bump in, like, others who maybe saw the saw it on Product Hunt and, like, also signed on. And there didn't seem to be a lot of network effects happening for mine, which is why I've I've transitioned off of that, to the longer form page. But it at least got me by for a few weeks.

Justin:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Justin:

There's a few other tricks too. One is you could take a clip of you describing in this podcast what Tuple is, and then you could say, hey. I'm working on something new. Check it out. And it's just like a a sound clip on Twitter.

Justin:

You could do it the same with video. Here's a little clip of a video. You could, you know, record a phone conversation with your partners. And it's just like the anticipation, like, building anticipation and leaving little teases and hints is a massively underrated, way to kind of build up to a launch. And, the just even saying, hey, I'm working on something.

Justin:

Something new. Something that I'll give you I'll give you a little hint. It's in it's for remote programmers or something. Okay. Well, at least I know now.

Justin:

And, again, people remember those things. So you're you're cluing them in, like, oh, Ben's on a journey. I'm I'm gonna go on that journey. Right. And you probably need more of those.

Justin:

I think most people need more of those than they think they do. Like, some people might think Ben is still working full time. Some people might think Ben is, you know, some people might think Derek's still at Drip. Like that that you you need to kind of leave this bread this breadcrumb trail for folks, especially if you've invested a lot in your relationships and profile. People need something to like follow and you can do that without a landing page or a mailing list or anything.

Justin:

You can just say, hey, working on something new. Here's a little and Adam Wadden is absolutely the king of this. Gonna say that. Like, it it

Speaker 2:

Adam is listening to this going, duh.

Justin:

He kills me. I mean, I'm a good talker, but he is the best at just going, oh, like, this is interesting. I should just share this little thing. And Yep. Of course, people find it interesting.

Justin:

Right? So

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And then when you launch, it feels familiar. Mhmm. Like, people are like, oh, yeah. This is the thing he's been working on.

Speaker 2:

I've been hearing about it. Oh, there you go. There's that that thing that he shot showed a screenshot of.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. You you people need more time than you think they do. If all of a sudden I just, you know, woke up one day and said, hey, I launched a podcast hosting application. People are like, woah.

Justin:

Woah. But if if I if I tell them, you know, 3, 6 months ahead, they're immediately thinking, should I have a podcast? Do I need to host a podcast? Do I know people that are hosting a podcast? Do I you know, what problems have I encountered with that?

Justin:

Oh, we're in a meeting and my boss wants us to start a podcast for a company. Oh, yeah. Justin's starting that thing. It just gives them time to process it as opposed to just surprising them like, hey, surprise. I got something new.

Speaker 2:

Totally.

Justin:

People need time to process things. So you get when you give them that time, it's, it's in your favor. Right?

Speaker 2:

Mhmm. Alright. Fine. Sweet about that. Even This mastermind is brutal.

Justin:

This is how long updates usually take? This is a lot to

Speaker 2:

God. No. No. No. This is how long a whole app a single episode takes.

Justin:

Listeners are like, what the so I'm working on a new podcast hosting application called transistor. Fm with my buddy John. We've been doing it well, we signed our partnership agreement in February or something, but we've been working on it since January and he was working on it even before then. So he had built like a MVP that our first customer Cards Against Humanity could use. And, so they've been hosting their podcasts since December, I think.

Justin:

And, but we're both doing it part time and, so John works full time for cards and I have a business. I I think actually he's in the better situation because it's so easy to work on transistor. And my regular business is basically selling this course marketing for developers, doing coaching calls, doing, you know, like that kind of stuff. And it's really easy to just want to do this other do transistor. So I think we're both struggling with that a bit.

Justin:

We're we're we're I mean, we keep launching new features every week. We're getting closer. We have about, I think, about 70 early access customers.

Speaker 2:

Wow. Paying customers?

Justin:

Paying customers. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Nice. I

Justin:

think John wanted it to be 10, but I just keep inviting people. And, we're our initial plan our sorry. Current plan is that he's going to fly here to British Columbia, and we're gonna launch officially in July. So we'll see we'll see if that happens. And actually, most recently, what we've been doing, we have a podcast called build your SaaS.

Justin:

And we we we we are always kinda like, okay. Here's the topic. We're gonna figure out pricing. And so in the midst of the conversation, we're, like, supposed to figure out what we're gonna do. And we got into this pricing conversation.

Justin:

We're like, wow. This is a we can't figure this out on air. Like, we need to we really need to chew on this. And so, one one thing we're trying to do we're both in our late thirties and I think I probably everyone has this propensity but there's this propensity to always want to make it seem like you have all the answers and that you're you know I've been working with SaaS companies since 2008 like I should know this stuff but, we're really trying to bury our egos and reach out for help whenever we can. Massively helpful because our initial ideas for pricing were dumb.

Justin:

Like, they were just dumb. And it's so funny, you know, I don't know what that saying is. They can't see the forest for the trees or whatever. But when the trees are right in front of you, like, you're in the forest and you just can't see, you're looking around and you just you're in the weeds. Having someone else and it can sometimes they don't even need to have a lot of expertise, but someone else that can just look at your situation and go, well, there's a lot of other stuff I'm seeing that you're not seeing and to have a bunch of those conversations and basically every single person was aligned.

Justin:

They're all like I would not price it that way. So we were gonna price it based on number of shows. Because in the enterprise space in the podcast enterprise space, that's what people do. Because though they're selling to radio stations and big podcast networks, but that's not our target market. Our target market is, we think, is businesses.

Justin:

Specifically, tech businesses that want a podcast. And so, they're like this is a bad way to price and it doesn't your your value proposition doesn't scale with your main cost center, which is bandwidth. So why are you gonna like how much is it like Cards Against Humanity's had 3,800,000 downloads since they launched? It's like Mhmm. Are you guys losing money on them?

Justin:

And we're like, well, we don't know. We might be. They're like, well, you should definitely make your pricing if you can, it's better to have your main value proposition relate to your main cost center and have expansion revenue kind of go with that. Right? So the more and so what they were suggesting is downloads, number of downloads.

Justin:

The more downloads you get, the more you get charged. It's also theoretically the main thing people want. Like, when we do interviews with customers, they're like we're like, what's the number one thing you want more listeners. That's what they want, so Right. That's what we're working on right now and getting getting closer to to that.

Justin:

Figuring out, you know, what we're gonna charge initially and, that's kind of like the last piece it feels like. We have lots more product stuff we want to build, but that that's the piece we want to have in place so that we can launch in July.

Speaker 2:

I take it.

Justin:

Yeah. I've also been thinking a lot about, about I I called it activation because actually and while you're talking, Ben, this this triggered something in me. Which is you you've been able to get people to pay for something that doesn't exist. Which is an incredible thing like that's and Derek, you've been able to get someone to sign up for something that doesn't exist Mhmm. Which is incredible.

Justin:

It it shows that, you know, you've invested all those things that we talked about, like, you've invested in community. You've clearly you've got a hook that is hooking people, and I think all of that stuff's incredible. What I've been thinking about lately though is what comes after that, which is Sure, I can get people to sign up. I can even get people to pay for this, but can I get people to use it and keep using it? And I think that's one thing that worries me that keeps me up at night a little bit is, I'm sure for all of our apps, like, every app needs usage.

Justin:

But specifically in podcasting, if people are not creating shows and they're not uploading episodes, that is going to be very bad for our business long term and so activation and usage is something that's on my mind And I think in the ebook course space, we get a lot of people who do not activate. They just buy and we're happy to take their money. But in the long term, it's very difficult to build a business off those folks, because they if they've never if they never use it, they never get success. If they never get success, they don't tell people about it. If they don't you know, they never wanna upgrade.

Justin:

They never wanna get to the next step. And, because I've been in the ebook course space for the past 2 years, I'm I'm really thinking, man, I it's not enough to take people's money. I really need something that is I can invest in and that naturally expands as people use it. There's there's this activation and usage that leads to further revenue as opposed to me investing in this thing that, sure, I got people's money, but then I'm done.

Speaker 2:

Derek, do you wanna take this one or should I?

Speaker 4:

I so I've got some thoughts, but then you can go. So so, like, so you're building a service. Right? And, the service is software. You're hosting podcasts.

Justin:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

But, something that's really kinda interesting about Stripe's strategy is that, you know, they've they're launching Atlas to help you start companies. And they're doing that because they wanna make it the on ramp easier for people to build businesses, which will then in turn turn into, you know, revenue that is built through Stripe. And so that's like they're investing in this other thing that ends up, sort of this virtuous cycle of revenue back into their company. So for you, it would be, you know, perhaps something like like what can you do as a company to, to help encourage people to continue creating? And I even know what this is, if it's education or if there's some software that that some technical component that helps with that.

Speaker 2:

Feel free

Speaker 4:

to interject then.

Speaker 2:

I'm I'm going even one one level further, which is you're building a podcast host, but no one wants a podcast host.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

They want a podcast. Mhmm. And they want downloads. And they've already told you that. They want a bunch of downloads.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, like, I feel like you need to talk to Brian Castle

Speaker 4:

Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

And talk to him about his done for you. We make a podcast for you for your business service.

Justin:

Yeah. And, like,

Speaker 2:

I don't know if that's a business you wanna run, but, like, that to me is the ultimate answer. It's like, oh, they didn't actually start making episodes. Like, well, damn it. We have a plan. Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

It costs a lot. Yeah. But we can make episodes. We make sure you make episodes.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. We're already we were already we've already done experiments with that, with do we wanna be in the done for you? And, yeah. I think there is something there for sure.

Justin:

I think there's also opportunities in software, but it's it's likely we're gonna have to partner with folks like Castle. My Adam Clark has a new company called Podcast Royale that does this, and he's already Mhmm. He's already referring customers to us. So we can see, okay, wow. This is one way to do it.

Justin:

Right?

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Justin:

And I think there's also I haven't I haven't quite figured this out, but, I had one founder reach out to me and say, I want I've always wanted a podcast, but I want a co host in the beginning. Like, I want you, Justin, to be my co host so that I can experiment with this and have some confidence and all the so there is those pieces are there for sure. Yeah. Although it also it still makes me worried because, you know, like, it's hard making a podcast. It's hard doing it every week.

Justin:

And the the nice thing about downloads, though, that is encouraging is one problem in the podcast hosting industry is dead shows or shows that are not being updated anymore. And, the because I can see now all of our new early access users, how many downloads they get. And I've transferred my shows. So Product People, which is a show I update occasionally, is one of the shows I imported. Well, it's it goes like Cards Against Humanity and then Product People is number 2.

Justin:

And so for, it's a show that's not updated very often, but still gets lots of downloads. And so there's benefit there. I'm still getting the benefit from those shows. And so this idea that folks, instead of thinking, I only get benefit from this if I'm uploading new shows, as instead, they're thinking I invest in this and maybe I do a season, and I still get the benefit for a long, long time. If it's, you know, like Seth Godin startup school, if you ever search startup, it's like super old, never updated.

Justin:

It's still, like, number 1 on iTunes. That's still it's like an asset that just sits there and, you know, so that makes me feel a little bit better that if we can just get people to make 7 shows and they're getting enough benefit from that then, you know, they might keep paying for a long time. It's like we've invested in this asset. It's still giving us a return. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

And I think, like, as much you can build into the product that demonstrates that people are still getting value out of the content they've produced, the better you're gonna be. So with Drip, it was always like, how can we put dollar signs everywhere in the app to show you, like, this campaign is earning you this much money or this activity is causing this conversion to happen at this stage in your funnel. Because, you know, the more attribution we could do, the more insights we could offer. You know, unlike ways to improve or ways to get more, more people listening, more downloads, more reach. And I think there's probably some opportunities you could do with, like, mining data that you have, figuring out, like, hey, this was your most popular episode and you talked about this and it was this length or this format.

Speaker 4:

Like Yeah. Try doing more of that. I don't know.

Jason:

Like Yeah.

Justin:

That's a good idea.

Speaker 2:

I dig it. I hear I understand your fears, though. Like, it's so I I started a tiny little podcast hosting thing one time, and the thing I found with it was that it was totally an aspirational thing

Justin:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

For a lot of people. It was like, you've always want to start a podcast. Right? And they're like, heck, yeah. Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

And so I'm like, alright, we're gonna do it. And then we would. And they would record, like, one episode, and they're like, yeah, that's enough for me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

These weren't these weren't businesses. These were, like, you know, casual people Yeah. For sure. Yeah. But it was it wasn't like they're like, god, I need a podcast.

Speaker 2:

I didn't wake up every morning thinking, like, where's my podcast?

Justin:

Yeah. Exactly. But they want the thing it it's just like anything. So I just signed up for RightMessage. And Mhmm.

Justin:

And it I I had a kind of a joke on Twitter, like, how long it took Brennan to get me as a customer. It took a long time. Like, he he asked me I've got, like, in this one Slack group I'm in, there's, like, 20 messages from Brennan. Like, hey. Do you wanna sign up?

Justin:

And I'm gonna do it for my mega maker business. So books and courses. But I got in there once and, you know, fill fiddled around with a few things. And I haven't been back. And now the clock is ticking.

Justin:

Because that initial inspiration is dying. And now it's been a week. So now I'm starting to think, fuck, I paid $99 for this. Like, like, I'm starting to get that feeling that you get when you haven't used something. And it shows, like, if I can get some activation if I can get, you know and Brendan if you're listening, this would be a good time to reach out and just set up my account for me.

Justin:

But, you know, like, that's a great product. He's got but I just ran into a few things. There wasn't a few things I couldn't do, and I'm like, ah, whatever. I just I'm done. Right?

Justin:

And it's like that for a lot of products. You can't I mean, this is the death of project management apps is you're already using one and someone says hey, do you want to check out mine? You're like, oh, sure. And you check it out. You're like, okay.

Justin:

But until you really activate, until you get some sort of, like, investment in sorry. In Yeah, you put something in and then you get something out. If that doesn't happen pretty quick then it's just on the back of your mind like Okay. I'm not gonna cancel right away because Brendan's my friend. But if 3 months go by and I haven't used this thing, I'm gonna cancel.

Justin:

And that I think all products have that that problem and even going back to the skateboard thing. Like, you might buy a skateboard thinking, yes, I'm actually gonna go and learn to skateboard. But it sits in your room for 2 weeks. And then, you know, clothes get put on on it. And then, you know, you the more it sits there, the more you get guilty about it, the more it it feels like a weight on you.

Justin:

And then you're like, forget it. I'm never gonna learn how. I'm just gonna give this to my little brother.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Yeah. There's a really good talk at micro comp that Justin Maris did. And at one point, he mentioned kinda off handedly, we, we did the math, and we realized that customer success people caused such an increase in our activation rates and the expansion revenue that they paid for themselves, that hiring additional customer success people was profitable.

Gavin:

And

Speaker 2:

so we once we realized that, we just started going nuts on that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it's I'm sitting here thinking that for, like, maybe they have one at RightMessage. I don't know. But, like, if someone had, like, been keeping tabs on you and saying, hey. Justin is not actually activated. Like, I'm gonna, like, reach out to him and maybe do some work for free if I need to to get him over that hump.

Justin:

Yeah. And I think the challenge is it takes more than automated messages. Like, I'm I'm so used to getting automated messages, like, hey, it looks like you haven't set up your thing and then do you wanna reach I'm like

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. It doesn't work.

Justin:

I don't wanna do that. I just Oh. I want, this reminds me of, like, the first SaaS company I worked for was an email newsletter company. And I'm I got started on customer support. And one of the things I realized was if I watched new account sign up and I would just go into their account, set up their template with their logo and stuff from their website, and then they would go into their account and it would be magically their their newsletter template would have all the stuff from their website.

Justin:

And people loved it. Like and, exactly that thing. They if whenever I did that with an account, they were like it was like, I don't know. Way more likely that they would sign up for a paid plan and stick around. And so I could see that, like, customer support people, like, reaching out and just going and again, it's almost like you gotta be a bit ballsy.

Justin:

Like, reach out to me on Twitter DMs or or something and say, hey. Like, can I help you get this thing set up? The the automated approach, I don't know. I I maybe it works for other people, but I'm just getting I'm so used to those, you know, pop up, intercom things and

Speaker 2:

Intercom.

Justin:

Yeah. It doesn't feel real. But if there's a real human being like, hey, we just wanna help you out and get you started. I'd be like, okay. Like, I'll I'll do it.

Justin:

And, yeah, maybe it doesn't scale or I don't know. But

Speaker 2:

But me but that's the thing about Justin Maris is, like, that it wasn't just like, hey. We're doing a thing that doesn't scale because we have to. I was like, actually, this makes money. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Justin:

Yeah. And and for them, you could see, like, once people get it installed and it starts, like, generating revenue, man, like, I'm in, you know? And, it's it's kind of again, like, I don't know why more consultants don't do this is I get pitched all the time about stuff I do not care about at all. But if someone could if someone noticed something like like where I'm clearly getting stuck and reached out to me and said, hey, like this is what I do for a living. I just get people unstuck from this thing.

Justin:

Do you want to pay me? I'll be like, yes. Like I will pay you for that right now because I'm you know, that's something that that is very applicable at this point in my life. It feels like people they're not good at recognizing those things where people are getting stuck or they don't care or I don't know.

Speaker 4:

And so many so many of us wanna build automated software companies where we ideally don't have to talk to a single human being. But, like, the truly successful SaaS companies, I think, are the ones that, when it makes sense to, are proactively doing as much for their customer as possible and really emphasizing that service component. Yeah. It's such a powerful thing.

Justin:

Did you did was that your experience at Drip too? Like, is that something you leveraged?

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Early on, we had our we called it our concierge service, and, we would build an email course for you. So, like, we we sort of strategize, like, what's the minimum path to awesome, to getting value out of the product. And, early early days when we were mostly centered around just, like, basic email follow-up campaigns, we would, we would do those for free for you, based on I think we would take your some existing content off your blog and put together an email course for you. And then, for a while I think we even did, some of the, like, fully done for you evergreen.

Speaker 4:

Like, give us some ideas, and we'll go off and write a a 5 part email course. I think we did that for free for a while, and then we started offering it for $500 maybe. But, yeah, that stuff was huge in the early days. And the services component is still a a big thing, at least account migrations. And now it's like, you know, Drip is a much more complicated product, but I think there's still, like, a big service component that we have.

Justin:

Yeah. How could you use that, though, Ben, with Tuple?

Speaker 2:

I was thinking that as you were talking. I don't know for sure. I so one thing I've I've thought about coming at it from a slightly different angle, which is not quite activation, but more like building the next generation of pair programmers because there's some people that feel like they should be pairing but they don't feel like they would be good at it or they're intimidated or they have concerns So one thing I strongly suspect that we will be build building either as, like, a low cost product or for free is some sort of pairing course or book or something. Yeah. And so

Justin:

This is where being having a profile and having, you know, a following could be helpful because if you're talking about pair programming all the time, that becomes the trigger. Right? So it's like you're I'm on Twitter and I'm a Tupelo customer. And all of a sudden Ben's talking about pair programming. It's like, oh, yeah.

Justin:

I I need to do that more. Or I should you know? Or even just a human being like, you know, if you tweeted, like, when was the last time you paired with the most junior person of your team? And then you're like, woah. Oh, yeah.

Justin:

When was the last time? That's a different than an automated message and maybe that's your key is just, you know For sure. Again, Adam Wavin is always getting people to think about testing and refactoring because he's talking about it all the time. Like, I don't give a can I swear on this program? I don't care at all about, refactoring.

Justin:

Like, I don't, but I'm thinking about it all the time because Adam's tweeting it all the time. Mhmm.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Actually, it's providing I mean, as corny as it sounds, it's being a thought leader in Yeah. Tangential to the technology you're building or the business you're building. Right?

Speaker 2:

Yep. And that's totally where where you wanna be. Yeah. Yep. It's like when I made a refactoring course for Rails app, so I was like, yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people think of me as the refactoring guy.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

And so I have to now become the pairing guy.

Justin:

Yeah. So I hope you enjoyed that. If you are listening on Breaker, please leave a comment, you know, if any part of that hits you or you resonated with any of that. You can also do that on this app called Castbox. Otherwise, you can get me on Twitter.

Justin:

I'm the letter m, the letter I, Justin, m I, Justin. You can get transistor on Twitter at transistor FM. You can call out to John John Buddha, j o n b u d a on Twitter. And folks, we are, I think about 50 days away from our official launch. If you wanna be notified when Transistor launches, it's transistor dotfm, and you can sign up for the waiting list there.

Justin:

Thanks again. See you next Tuesday.