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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Looking Yourself In The Eye: Choosing Authenticity Over Approval: Part 2
00:00
I got a question, kind of want to, if it's all right, zoom out a bunch and kind of go a little bit bigger picture and not, and a little less personal probably. When I step back and when I look at the world today, it seems to me that really in the last like 10, 15 years, this age of like everybody's got a camera in their hand, social media, like everything has shifted. And I'm curious, Justin, from your point of view and what you're noticing kind of in the marketing world.
00:29
in the social media world, that's something that you do really well. That's what I've noticed at least is like you nailed the social media marketing piece really well. I see your videos, you know, and things like that. And it's really fun. But I'm curious if you step back and kind of observe like what are you noticing in terms of trends of society where we're going, social media where we're going, what's happening for better or worse? What's your take? Hmm. That's a really good question. I feel like I'm just learning this myself.
00:57
I think we've just replaced relationships with likes. Hmm. And there's a dopamine hit that comes with that. There's an incredible amount of quick joy or happiness or depends on the person, but it's exciting to post something and get likes or comments, but it's also more lonely than ever. And so for me, as someone that posts on social media, I can never let it replace my community. Like when you guys have events, I need to be there. Like it's one thing to jump on a Zoom call, that's kind of a...
01:26
It's like filling the gas tank, but it's not the vehicle. It can help. But I think what I've noticed too, is there's just a lot of people that have a hard time having real conversations in real life. And the attention span really shortens. I think as parents, I've noticed that I'm on my phone more. So this is a heartbreaking story. It's also a hilarious story. And again, this is my daughter. So two years ago, she came up to me and she said, hey dad, when can I get a phone? Like I wanna get a phone. I was like,
01:56
Honey, you don't want to get a phone. These things just distract you, they're stressful. And she's like, no, no, no, I really want to get a phone. And she was so passionate about this. And I was just wondering, where's this coming from? She's never been someone that wanted a phone. I mean, she was six at the time. And I said, okay, help me understand, why do you want a phone so bad? And she looked right at me and she said, Dad, I want to get a phone someday. So when I'm on a client call, I could ask you to be quiet. Ooh. Yeah.
02:25
I like laughed because I was, I was taken aback. I'm like, Oh no. And all of a sudden this song started going cats in the cradle and the silver spoon. And it was, it wasn't cause I was just gone mentally. I was present physically, but I've been gone mentally with distractions and with calls. And it was so shocking of like, what am I showing my daughters? What's the priority?
02:54
Like, yeah, dad's working from home, everything seems great, but dad is so far gone in his head with to-dos and client calls. And so I just realized, one, I need to set better boundaries up. And I think a lot of us might want to think about like, what are we saying yes to? So if we're doing social media or trying to get the picture, are we saying no to the people around us or actually being engaged in the moment? And so I think for me, I just noticed like, sometimes I just don't even take a picture. I don't pull out the phone. I want to, I'm like, this would be awesome to capture. And then I go,
03:24
Yeah, you get the great photo and you won't be there at all. You won't see the smiles around you. You won't see the moment. It'll just be gone. It'll be digitized. And so that was one of those heartbreaking moments as a dad of like, that's so sad and so funny and heartbreaking and eye-opening, the awareness that came from that. But I think for us, like as a culture, we just have to be really careful with when we say yes to something, we also have to understand we're saying no to something else. Totally.
03:53
in understanding like what's our goal? Because if we're climbing any ladder and it's on the wrong wall, and we get to the top and we're like, ah, I did climb the ladder, it was just at the wrong place. Why do we think we put our ladder on that wall? Like, why do people go to social media, go after the likes, go after projecting an image that isn't actually authentic? Why do we do that? That's a great question. I think I'll have to just answer why I do it.
04:21
And I think in my own broken journey, in my own healing journey, this is kind of the first time in the world, in our generation, that we can project whatever we want without actually doing the work. When you said doing the work, like unpack that. What do you mean by that? So let's, I don't know, for example, let's just think you want to be an influencer. You want to be a guru or something. If you get great videos, a great chat GBT script.
04:50
You have a marketing agency filming these things or whatever you do. You got great hashtags and keywords. You know the algorithm. You're it for a season. You can be the number one go-to sponsored ads, but that doesn't mean that you took 10 or 20 years to like school a hard nox it that you've put your life's work into that or that you're actually doing what you're teaching. A lot of these people get rich real estate. Awesome. What are you doing real estate? Nothing. I have the course. Oh, okay.
05:19
I'll teach you how to do this." It's like, cool, are you doing that too? No, I have the course that I sell. So I think nowhere else have we ever had a platform just to become somebody so quickly. And I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but when we become someone that we're actually not as a person, it's really hard, I think, for that person because it's kind of the wrong ladder. It's climbing an awesome ladder quickly that's tall. It's just not going to the right place all the time. And I think we follow people. I bought the course.
05:49
I've clicked the ads and like, man, for a thousand bucks, if you could help me triple my revenue in my business, I'm in. Send me. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my goodness, I just lost a thousand dollars and this course is horrible and there's zero refunds. Like what happened? And it was me almost wanting to become someone I wasn't quickly. And I thought if I could pay my way to get there, I could do that. And generations before us had to show up. They had to apprentice.
06:12
They had to read every book. They had to do the schooling or whatever it was, and they had to keep doing it over and over and over and over until sometime there was a break. But now we could just kind of become who we want to. And I think there's good things in that and there's really hard things in that. You know, they say the people that post about their marriage just being the greatest in the world over and over are probably the people that have had the most struggles in their marriage recently. Or the person that's on a stage talking about, we need to stop doing this, this, and this. Usually that person, it's almost like self-help of them.
06:42
talking about what they're struggling about. And I think the more we could be honest and say like, hey, this is going well, but this is the hard stuff too. The more that it brings deeper connection rather than the, hey, my life is just awesome. Everything's awesome. It's just really hard to connect to that because that's just not how people connect. We connect on the joys and the quirks and the hardships. So I'm still processing though. I think it keeps changing, but I just think that...
07:07
We can become who we want to be, and that's not necessarily who we are off the screen, and that's the hardest part. You said so many great things. That word apprentice, that just like lands in a deep place of resonance for me, because as I hear that word, I hear like a discipline, I hear a willingness for someone to play the really long game.
07:34
to say like to actually learn to do the work of, like when we think about a trade, right? Of someone like, hey, I'm an apprentice plumber or an electrician or something like that, right? Good night, there's years and years of being underneath someone, of learning this trade. And like, when we think about that in our own life, Justin, I think that's such a needed word to say, actually the work requires us apprenticing towards presence, towards patience, like whatever it is, like.
08:02
Not only is it a long game, but I think it is. I like that word because it brings an image of so much of that happens in the unseen places. Like the places where it's not visible. It's not Facebook live. I'm getting no like comments or likes out of this, right? But if it's actually learning how to be more present with my kids, actually learning to receive like my identity as a beloved son of God, probably the moments where like
08:32
that's happening by myself or without other people seeing, not always, but like, that's probably a good hint of, and maybe you're in the right space, like apprenticeship versus image management. I, that's a contrast that feels really helpful to me. It's way more work, but it's, I think when we're honest, there's a willingness to say like, no, I actually do want to do the work of becoming more of who I was made to be, which requires a desire to go after that rather than feed the approval hunger machine. And so.
09:01
Thank you for that. Like that. So needed. Just like how you're tying the idea of apprenticeship, which usually we think of like learning a trade, but the tying that into like going after who we were made to be and that glory that was wired into us and like rediscovering that and the hard work that that actually takes the consistent work that takes kind of like what you were saying, you know, previously Justin of like, you have to like look in the mirror every day and say, good job.
09:31
You know, there's this pursuit, this ongoing pursuit of who you actually are. That is just, it's the other end of the spectrum from like, okay, who do I want everybody to think I am and let's post the highlight video, highlight reel of my life or, you know, project the image that I want everybody else to think that I am or what I think they want me to be. But actually going after and rediscovering and discovering who you really are, who God made you to be. That's a big deal.
09:59
I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on the guy who's listening to this, who might say like, apprenticing myself to who God has made me to be, that notion sounds appealing, functionally and practically, what does that look like? And so I'm not asking you for a formula, obviously that doesn't exist, but when you guys think about your own life and think about, because I know you to be men that have begun that process and are in that process of apprenticing yourself in that way. What were some of those first steps that feel important in that process?
10:29
Jesse, I love that question because I think as someone that's apprenticing, you have to have someone that you're looking up towards, that you're learning from. And I think, yeah, it's God, it's Jesus, we're looking there, but there's also a human part of that. Like, Jesus had his dad for a season to apprentice with. You know, God is a father, but he also had his dad in the wood shop teaching him, guiding him. And I think for a lot of us as men, it's like we find ourselves on an island.
10:59
thinking, well, part of hiding is not really being known, but also not asking for someone to teach us the way or that has gone first. And I think that's what really captured me with what RP has been about. There are dads that have gone first. There are dads that have raised daughters before I was ever a dad. They have learned the highs and the lows, they've learned. And so I wanted to surround myself with dads that have gone first. Kind of like if you're going to climb a 14er, greatest thing you can do is say, hey, who's climbed that one? Can I go with you?
11:29
And they're like, great, I'll see in the parking lot at 3 a.m. And you're like, why 3 a.m.? Why not 9 p.m. or 9 a.m.? And they're like, because there's going to be a storm on the mountain and it won't be safe at noon. So we have to be down and you're like, oh, I had no idea. When you get lost and it's like, we just need people that we can apprentice under that are also going the path that have been there, but they haven't given up the work. They're still doing that. And I think.
11:55
That's something that most people aren't doing right now. They're trying to go it alone, which is fine for a season. I mean, there's seasons of survival, but to look around and go, who do I wanna become like? Well, I wanna become a better dad. Who's a good dad around here? I don't know, maybe I could ask Jesse or Cody, or maybe I could read the book and go on one of the expeditions, or I can go to the Grove, or I can sign up to an online community because I don't live in Colorado, you know, whatever it is. But I think we have to be in community.
12:23
And that's where apprenticeship starts. And then I think the second part of that is, when we show up online space, I think if we can ask ourselves the question, how could I add value to somebody else? I think that's when the apprentice starts to become beyond just apprenticing, but also giving value to others. And I think that's what I hope to see in that kind of space of people going, hey, I don't wanna just post about how awesome my trip to Mexico was. Sure, there's a space for that.
12:50
But what if you posted about something that you're passionate with parenting? Like, Hey, you know, I fell forward. Here's one idea how you can connect with your kids that I found helpful for me. Or like start adding, like instead of just saying, look what I'm doing to say, Hey, I'm passionate about this and I'd love to give anyone else some tips or tricks or share this vision as well. Kind of like if you're a sword maker and you're an apprentice going, Hey, I would love to have a workshop or I'd love to invite you. I'd love to, you know, here's just an idea of creating something that might have a legacy to it.
13:17
So maybe inviting people into a better story as well, rather than just engaging our own story all the time, would be, I think the hope with people apprenticing, but also sharing what they're passionate about and what they're learning with others. So that way other people can also get inspired to take their next step in their journey and their story. Yeah. What I hear in what you're saying, Justin, is I'll use a different word than apprenticing. And like I'll use the word fathering as a way that we thought about it. It's like...
13:46
We need to be fathered. Like, you know, Jesus had his dad, right? We had our, hopefully had our dads. And either way, we need men to, you know, quote unquote, father us. And really we need that before we can even like father ourselves. When I think about you looking in the mirror, like that's fathering yourself every morning or every evening or whenever you're looking in the mirror. But to be able to do that, like, generally speaking, mirror being the exception, like we can't see our own face.
14:16
We can't see the glory that we need to be called forth to that is in us. We need other men to show up. And that can't happen when we're wearing a mask, when we're projecting an image that isn't authentic. You know, our real self does leak out, right? And if we're constantly projecting this image, people come to know the image, but they don't come to know us. And so we need people in our lives that can look through, that can see through the image, the facade.
14:46
and call out the actual person that lives there. That's good. Yeah. I had a friend a bunch of years ago who get together for coffee and he said, man, I've just realized I have to have people in my life who are unimpressed by me. I don't remember hearing it. My thought was like, no, like, isn't the goal is to actually like grow that number.
15:12
Like approval ratings up and to the right, the whole point of this life. Right. More followers, right? Like, what are you talking about? And I, I wasn't quite that boldly honest, but I think he like wisely read the confusion on my face and he's like, no, think about it. I have to have people who can do what you're just talking about, Cody, of actually to look past the facade and to say, great, your ledger of.
15:40
successes and likes and accomplishments, I actually see past that and I see the wiring and the goodness that God has placed in you that I care most about. And so that requires an indifference to the shellac, right? To the veneer of our accomplishment and to have people who are willing to look deeper. I so agree and it feels counterintuitive, right? Because that also begs the question, if you take that away, if you take my
16:09
Impressive accomplishments. If you take away, you know, whatever metric we use to be able to find our worth, to give a desirable image, right? That's some of the risks that we were talking about. If you remove that, will there be substance? Will we be received? Will there be approval? And to have people around you who believe, no, there's something deeper beyond that begins to rewrite some of that narrative, but it is tremendously risky. Yeah. I, I fully agree with that. And.
16:36
The good news is, you know, the men that have gone before us, our grandparents, our dads, I believe they did the best they could with what they had. You know, those men did not have the resources that we have. They don't have the access to community where we're on an app right now talking. We're not actually physically in the space, but yet you're a band of brothers to me.
16:59
They didn't have a podcast to tune into. They didn't have an apprenticeship they can easily just jump into unless they knew someone physically right next to them. And I think that's why this stuff matters more than ever because we have access to this stuff. Almost to a fault where we don't value it at times, at least I don't at times, but to go, if I really believe this, if I really wanna become somebody that could be a guide or a sage,
17:26
or a leader that goes first, I really need to put the work in. I can't just listen to the audio book and be good. I mean, I've tried that. I've bought, I spent hundreds of dollars on Audible and everyone's like, how was the book? I'm like, great. Like, what did it happen? I'm like, awesome, good self-help stuff. Or I'd listen to the sermon and like, what was it about? I'm like, oh, Jesus, great. You know, they're like, how did it change your life? Didn't at all, I forgot about it. But at least I like checked it off the list. Totally, right? Like, sorry, I'm interrupting, but I'll just say like quick anyways, like the.
17:55
Right, because information by itself does not offer transformation. No, that's great. We say that again, Jesse. Yeah, like I'm ripping it off from someone. So sorry, I didn't come up with this. I'm parroting this, but like information alone does not produce transformation. It's actually information in the context of relationship and community that actually does that, which is the gospel. Right, like Jesus did not just say, hey, I'm gonna download doctrine to y'all.
18:23
He said, no, I'm going to offer a new kingdom, a new way of being, and I'm going to live amongst you and be with you and actually be in a relationship. When I came onto earth and what, and actually that invitation exists right now. Like that actually is the opportunity for transformation. It's not the world's best podcast or you know, whatever information is there. That's so good. All right. I feel like it'd be kind of dumb to not tee this up a little bit. I know, you know, we're coming close to wrapping up our time here.
18:53
For those of you who don't know, the Grove Collective is our online community, formerly known as the Forge Collective. And at that point, Justin Morgan actually is the guy who appointed us in the direction of utilizing Circle, which is the platform we have posted on, and helped create the foundational elements of that online community. So first of all, Justin, thank you. I know you for that. Huge thank you. Huge thanks. You did a ton of work, a lot of effort, and it was incredible.
19:22
incredibly encouraging and helpful. I just want to ask you this one question. Why did you do that? Why did you help us and point us in that direction? Why was that important?
19:34
I think about my dad a lot. And there was this moment where we were driving in a car years ago and I was mentioning the Grove. It was a father's day and we were just talking. He said, what are you up to next week? And I said, well, I'm going to be going to this men's thing. It's called the Grove. And I was telling him about it. And then the car ride got really quiet and I was driving. And I looked over and I saw my dad and I could see he had tears in his eyes and he's just looking straight down at the dashboard. And I said, dad, you're right.
20:04
And he said, yeah. And I said, well, what's on your mind? And he's not a guy that normally does stuff like that. So I knew something was up. And I remember there was this long pause. And he said, I knew if I would have had something like that years ago, I wouldn't have lost my marriage.
20:24
And I think for me, like, I have something like that through what you guys have created and through the brotherhood and through that. And I think about guys like my dad that never had that chance, that looking back, they wish they would have had something like that. And I think about all the guys going down the mountain that are really excited or they come back from the expedition and then they go, now what? Like that was super powerful. And I think looking at my own story, like the biggest mistakes I've made in my life,
20:55
was in isolation.
20:58
biggest mistakes I've made in my life was in isolation and the best choices that I've made has been in community.
21:07
Yeah. Everyone deserves a community in person and also a community that they can access when they're not there, you know, because a lot of we talk about this stuff. I mean, how often do you find yourself doom scrolling? And I mean, it happens. I'll jump on and try to like send a message to a friend. And I'm just on a reels of like mountain bikes wiping out and jeeps flipping over and people running from the pole. I'm like, what is happening? And I'm still on an hour and a half later. I'm like, I have got to get a life. Like what just happened? And I think.
21:37
For a lot of us, we go, what if there was just one thing that would be better than that? What if I can actually leverage this phone or this idea to grow and to be part of something better than just getting stuck in reels or compare and despair? And I think that's what's really cool about what you guys have created, is you created an online platform that keeps the relationships that are built in person, or it builds relationships until someone can meet in person. And it gives us something to look forward to that actually can be life-changing for us.
22:07
in a community of like-minded people, rather than, oh, I'm not good enough here, I'm not good enough here, and here's where. And it just takes away the noise, and it gives value. And I think that's what I really am so excited what you guys have done, because you've nailed the in-person stuff. And now you've also bridged the gap. So the men that go, hey, I won't see you for another year until the Grove or the next thing happens, because you're in a different state. We can still stay in touch of like, hey, how's fathering going?
22:36
What's the highs and lows of the week? What are something to celebrate? And what is something that's just going really poorly that you go, hey, I didn't even throw this out there. So you're not alone in that. And I just, I see so much value in that. And especially thinking about all the men that just never had a chance at that. And yet you've created something to fill that void, to give someone a purpose on their phone rather than something that's just made to help them buy stuff they don't need or help them feel like a certain way. That's not helpful.
23:06
That goes more into isolation. Justin, you helped make that happen. So I just want to give you a little credit there. And thank you. Thank you for all that you've offered. Thanks for that. Thanks for this conversation that we've had. It's just been really good. Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate you guys. Thanks, Justin. Look forward to the next one. Take care. See ya.