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SBC Leaders Podcast is a series of interviews with CEOs and decision makers at some of the betting and gaming industry's biggest, best and most innovative companies.
Sue (00:02.213)
Hello, my name is Sue Schneider. I'm 30 years in the industry and have worked in events and publications and have worked with SBC for a number of years now. I'll help them get started over on this side of the pond in the Americas. So it's been a fun ride. Leaders Podcast is, I really enjoyed doing these. It's been a look back for the most part, trying to capture some of the history that's out there.
So we're very, very pleased to have Martin Sack on as a guest this time to talk about his experience. Martin, I think it would be really interesting for you to start with. I think people in the industry know that for many of us, once you get in, you don't ever get out. I'm a good example of that because I just can't stop. But talk a little bit about what you did before you even stumbled into this industry.
Martin Sack (00:55.79)
Absolutely. So I had a fairly boring career path. I started life in internal audits. I then moved on into banking. And then I was in IT and I had a number of IT companies, some successful, some not. But generally it was good. So that was my formative background, you know, to kind of me a bit of that view of the financial aspects.
of things, the technology aspects of things and the control aspect of things. All of which, when I actually did make my start into the industry, all played a part in me understanding what I was doing. And you're 100 % right to. Listen, I think there's probably two types of people in this industry. You get in and you wash out quickly or you're in it for life. It's a drug. It's a drug, to be honest.
Sue (01:49.277)
You
Sue (01:53.18)
That's true. That's true. So let's move into when you kind of got sucked into this. When, where, how. You're in South Africa and that was a hub and we'll talk about that a little bit later. But how did you find yourself gravitating into this industry?
Martin Sack (02:10.868)
at the Passover table, to be quite honest. Some of my family had been given the opportunity to start my micro gaming poker room and they needed the technical expertise on how to do it. So I went and researched what was required to make this poker room. It was dream poker happen. I gave them a plan how to put it together and they said, all right, execute it, put it together.
I did that, thinking very much I was going to build and transfer and they said, operate. So I did. And that's the start of it.
Sue (02:53.125)
And how long did you do that then?
Martin Sack (02:56.232)
we started, it was probably two years we were up and running. And then unfortunately, a thing happened called Uege. And that knocked the wind out of that particular sale quite a lot. I mean, we had good business in the Scandinavias, in Russia, but the truth of the matter is like many people, the majority of the business was in the States at that time.
And without that, had to make a sale, which we did. We sold it to Gnuf, which is now part of Betwebs.
Sue (03:31.773)
Great. And then, when was that? When did you actually get into the business then?
Martin Sack (03:36.746)
that, probably 2004. So, Jäger was what, 2006, we did this a couple of months after that. You remember sitting in Barcelona, that's where we found out about it, guided by one of the senior execs around, of the provider around the corner and told this is what's coming. It was one of the worst days of my life, to be honest.
Sue (03:40.317)
Okay.
Yes, we remember it well.
Sue (04:01.501)
Mm-hmm.
Sue (04:06.193)
Yeah, yeah, it was bad when you see, I recall that I got a call from Frank Ferencough, who at the time was the head of American Gaming Association. And he said, well, I hate to tell you what happened in the middle of the night last night. And it really was devastating for the whole industry.
Martin Sack (04:21.016)
Yeah.
Sue (04:25.797)
South Africa and micro gaming, as you mentioned, has been just such a force in the industry. They started way back. I know I got started in 95 and the Moshells, it was their company and they really grew that into a powerhouse. Can you talk about that whole environment in South Africa? Because really, it was really on the part of casino and poker and things like that. It was such a leader.
internationally. So what was your perspective as you kind of watched that all play out there in South Africa?
Martin Sack (05:02.926)
Yeah, it was kind of interesting because quite rightly micro gaming is a powerhouse. I don't think I've ever said on air who owns anything or to anybody really. It's one of the ways it was back in the day. We were fairly discreet about our businesses. But South Africa was without a question, no doubt, a major hub.
I mean, I kind of divided the world up into four. It was us, was the Israelis, it was the British guys and the Swedes. And each brought a slightly different take to how they ran their gaming operations, their bonusing philosophies, et cetera. And after that, you know, the millions of them had come. But at the beginning, that's kind of really the way I saw it. And South African micro gaming had a very unique flavor in how they
conducted their businesses and their operators were top class. And I think just because of the nature of the business of micro gaming, a really big industry grew out in South Africa that supported markets outside of the country. I don't know if you remember, but we never had, well, there was one micro gaming entity in South Africa ever, the rest weren't.
But it was a fantastic environment to work with, absolutely amazingly smart, clever people and driven and, you know, with the ability to get things done. And I think, you know, moving on into South Africa as it's growing into a market itself after regulation and everything else, I think the backbone of that drives a lot of the casinos that are in South Africa today.
Sue (06:53.169)
And what I always found interesting is micro gaming itself had a lot of tentacles to it in terms of different services, but I was always impressed with their game development, which I believe that one was based in Durban. But they were so far ahead of their time on many, things that they did. So in terms of where you see the talent that came out of South Africa, even whether it's legal or game development or operations or
Martin Sack (07:06.987)
Yes.
Martin Sack (07:11.5)
Yes.
Sue (07:22.943)
infrastructure, whatever. I've always been impressed with South Africa from that standpoint in terms of what they were able to pump out.
Martin Sack (07:29.229)
Absolutely, I mean that game development I believe was some of the best in the world. know, obviously everyone catches up over time, what Playtech or what everybody's doing I think is on and apart. But I've still got a soft spot in my heart for those micro gaming games. As for the people, well you've seen the experts everywhere.
probably more South Africans in Malta. Well, not as many as the Swedes, but you know, we travel, we get around. And I think actually it's kind of an interesting point. If you're looking for senior level staff for bookmaking operations in South Africa anymore, I can't use my Rolodex anymore. Not that it's a Rolodex, but a contact list because the people have scattered around the globe, you know. I think we've got to go to work here down here.
Sue (08:26.333)
Yeah, it's that and just some very, talented folks. So I find it interesting your thought about the different regions because you're right. mean, Swedes were very, very involved also in growing out things there. There was boss media. was, you know, there were a number of companies that came up there. Israelis did a lot of, you know, I mean, starting with like, yeah, exactly.
Martin Sack (08:42.219)
Yeah.
Martin Sack (08:46.989)
Well, Playtech, I mean, the Playtech micro gaming competition was huge, huge, huge. As a micro gaming guy that grew up in that ecosystem, I think it was probably only 10 years ago that I worked on my, not even 10 years, five years ago that I worked on my first Playtech project, which is funny.
Sue (09:11.591)
Yeah, yeah. Do you see, I mean.
things have finally started happening a bit more in South Africa from a regulatory standpoint. For the longest time, you really only had land-based casinos, know, Sun was there and other ones. But just talk about South Africa itself for a minute, and it's a little late to the regulatory party, but how did you see it then, and how do you see how it's played out so far?
Martin Sack (09:21.569)
Yep.
Martin Sack (09:42.766)
Well, South Africa in the early days just wasn't a target market for us. You know, we live here. Really didn't want to take it on. But after 2004, when the National Gaming Bill came out firstly, I think the first online bookmaker went live probably 2005 or 2006. So that's where the
regulated industry started coming up. And in terms of regulation in South Africa, online casino is considered illegal in terms of the National Gaming Act. But what happens is bookmaking is legal. And what the provincial licensing authorities have basically allowed to happen is to treat bets on
There's a kind of concept called fixed odds bets on other contingencies. And in fact, the casino style games are treated as such. So every pull of a slot machine or spin over a lead wheel ends up with a bet slip as if it was a bet and is taxed accordingly. So it's a workaround. There are various proposed builds in the process at the moment where they'll regularise the
online gaming space. you know, take time. Reasons take time. But right now we have a workable model and I think the truth of the matter is the GGR of the country generates is significant. I think it's a lot of money around three and a half billion in GGR. That's significant.
Sue (11:14.429)
I
Sue (11:31.933)
I've always been amazed that this industry has been built on loopholes in terms of the products. you, I mean, is that your perspective too, that that's really how we've seen innovation. Somebody finds, because it is so highly regulated, somebody finds a loophole and we're seeing it right now with prediction markets really essentially that sort of, had them sweepstakes.
Martin Sack (11:38.509)
you
Martin Sack (11:47.414)
Yeah.
Martin Sack (11:51.777)
Yeah, absolutely. Going through a very similar thing. I don't know. As I'm looking at it, the future doesn't look that bright in very many regions for prediction markets. But yeah, listen, you have to test the boundaries. We are in regulated markets, the markets take their regulations seriously. if you can find a way, you should do it.
Sue (12:17.017)
Mm-hmm. that's, you know, again, I think we've been trying to do a little bit more work with what I'm doing now with working with startups to try to educate both policymakers, legislators, and regulators on how the system is not friendly to innovation. Because they'll never be able to keep up with it. So how do you see that playing out? Do you see that ever changing where the regulator is really
Martin Sack (12:36.746)
No, absolutely.
Sue (12:46.013)
would be able to do things in a way that really would be friendlier toward coming up with new ideas.
Martin Sack (12:52.074)
Well, problem is there's so many, certainly in the South African context, there's so many different layers of regulation. And to get everybody to agree and to make changes and make updates, you know, the wheels of government do grind slowly. I mean, we're dealing with software standards. When you're a platform into the country, that are ancient, you know, it would be nice to have modern standards.
I'm in Phoenix, I think the regulators agree. I don't think there's any of them sitting saying we're happy with the status quo. But let's how these draft bills come through and we can hope for the best. The point is right now, we've got a working ecosystem. yeah.
Sue (13:40.338)
Good. Yeah, I think I would agree with you. I don't think the regulators are happy with how the process is set out now either because it really the players, the consumers demand new things and for them to be able to keep up with it, it's very, very hard.
Martin Sack (13:56.822)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes, absolutely.
Sue (14:03.111)
Do you see, in terms of how things might play out in South Africa, do you see a change at all where it might get clearer? You said there's kind of a workaround now, but I mean, is there advocacy? One of my pet peeves about our industry is we don't come together that well. I mean, even though we have just a myriad of associations for every vertical in the industry.
Martin Sack (14:23.148)
Yeah.
Sue (14:30.331)
I don't see us generally playing together very well when it comes to advocacy to change things. So do you see that changing?
Martin Sack (14:38.32)
I think certainly from the South African context, think our associations are very, very active, the South African Bookmakers Association, Western Cape Bookmakers Association, they're very active in being proactive in driving change and education and
fighting for the rights of the operators as well as the punters. So I think we're kind of lucky as an industry that our industry bodies are strong on that. Yeah, think we're OK. I think we're OK. think 100%. Yeah.
Sue (15:17.017)
Okay, well, I wish I could say that for the U.S. It's very disjointed here, so I'm glad to hear that that may not be the case there in that country.
Martin Sack (15:27.306)
Yeah, I think the problem is less about the industry lobbying and more about government figuring out what they want to do and actually implement the draft bills that have been around for, or at least the last eight years.
Sue (15:43.784)
Well, when you look back for yourself personally, when you look back over your career in the industry, what kind of challenges did you face? mean, what were some of the hardest things that you've had to deal with that you can share some information about how you handled some of that?
Martin Sack (16:04.736)
Yeah, you know, it kind of brings it down to what it is we do, right? I mean, when you're working in this industry at a level, you're crossing so many multiple disciplines. You're dealing with individual markets, each with their own languages, each with their own peculiar quirks. You're dealing with payments and certainly in the early days,
know, payments was challenging to get money in and out and from players in different environments was incredibly challenging. Then licensing is an absolutely different process. In some areas it's documented well and it's an easy and straightforward process to follow. think South Africa is one of those jurisdictions. You move up into the rest of Africa and it's an absolute
nightmare in some jurisdictions, just even finding out what you're meant to be doing. You know, so those are all the problems we're having at the moment. Law, every single jurisdiction you're in, you've got a different set of laws you're paying. So the entire gaming ecosystem is a continuous mess of moving parts, you know, all the time that
you've just got to stay on top of it. So that's part of the challenges and it's, I suppose, part of the fun of it. It's part of the bit I enjoy. Couple of things, you know, taught very hard lessons. Jäger back in the early day, that was probably one of the biggest shocks to me, understanding that a business that had legs could not be a business, as we said, after a midnight conversation.
All right, I changed the value of the business overnight. I think in terms of COVID, that was, well, that was a blessing and a curse. For me personally, COVID was a blessing. You know, I got more work done in my dining room table than I did, you know, before. So mixed feelings. But yeah, this business is always full of challenges. It's just the nature that keeps changing.
Sue (18:19.933)
Well, and you're right about the compliance issues. mean, 10 years ago, there were no compliance companies. Now there's probably 10 of them. That that's all they do is track what's going on with the rules and regulations and the laws and all that and feed that back to the people that do that because most of the companies in the industry are multi-jurisdictional. So it gets complicated really quickly.
Martin Sack (18:31.669)
Yeah.
Martin Sack (18:42.442)
Yes.
Absolutely. then, you know, I mean, not as bad as Jäger, but you look at some of the moves in some of the markets and it puts restrictions on companies that went in with good faith into those markets as regulated operators that makes it almost impossible to generate reasonable profits. I talk UKGC, I talk Sweden, I talk Germany.
You know, places like these where the advertising restrictions and almost nanny states type regulations put it so it becomes difficult to be a legal operator, know, it kind of supports de-channelization. And I think that's been proved in fact in a lot of those areas.
Sue (19:35.934)
Mm-hmm.
Let's talk a bit about the broader continent there because I've been amazed at what I would consider really the rise of Africa as a spot that folks in the industry want to concentrate on. And I think they kind of straight to mobile for one thing because they are a little late to the party and then there were other issues related to payments and things like that. So talk a little bit about what you're seeing on the continent in other countries.
Martin Sack (19:54.729)
Yeah, yeah.
Sue (20:06.527)
and how that's moving forward.
Martin Sack (20:07.771)
Okay, you don't come to Africa, you come to one of just over 90 different jurisdictions, each with their own languages, each with their own payment methods, each with their own vetting patterns. So that's fundamentally the big mistake is saying I'm coming to Africa, you got to be clear in where you're coming to in Africa.
For me, the very brief way I put it up is you've got three languages. You've got Francophone Africa, you've got Portuguese speaking Africa, and the rest you can kind of do in English. All right, so from a language point of view, that's how I look at it. Some markets are bigger than others, Nigeria, Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, all of these are great markets.
Angola up and coming, Mozambique is nice. They are a bunch of good markets, but they all have their peculiarities and quirks. For people coming into Africa, think probably the first question you need to be asking is how can I get my money in and out? Because in some countries that is absolutely a problem. And the second thing is you've got to be clear on your technologies you're bringing in there.
It's not a place for the first tier platforms. You need to be able to be working on a relatively low bandwidth. You've got to be able to have agent systems. There are a couple of idiosyncrasies in Africa that you don't find anywhere else. I exclude South Africa from this. I kind of look at us as a European market. I kind of if it'll do the thing in the UK, it'll do the thing here.
Africa is challenging. Africa is really challenging. And the punters are surprisingly sophisticated. You know, I think in Nigeria, if you've got anything wrong with your bonus structures, they'll figure it out before you do. And they are demanding. know, instant payouts are very much expected. You know, it's just an absolutely different culture. Obviously, from a gaming perspective, I think you could say
Sue (22:11.697)
You
Martin Sack (22:26.101)
pretty much through all the jurisdictions. Sport is huge. would say crash is probably, aviator is right up there. then the casino games, the rest of the casino is coming up slowly. Mobile first, yeah, well, we don't even, there's no need to even talk about mobile first. That's just a given, I think, for most of the globe these days.
But what is interesting is payments. So Africans done really, really innovative things in payments. for a lot of countries, payment is mobile money. Your phone is essentially your wallet and your bank account. And it to interesting e-commerce.
Sue (23:13.127)
So it sounds like infrastructure, whether it's payments or whether it's the technology, internet, things like that, are still challenges there that need to be factored in.
Martin Sack (23:19.869)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. think a new entrance to this market, you can't be doing it sitting in your office in Malta or wherever. It's a boots on ground thing to get going here.
Sue (23:31.933)
Mm-hmm.
Sue (23:36.669)
If you look at the industry today, you could change one thing about it, what would it be?
Martin Sack (23:49.547)
I, you know what, I wouldn't change anything about the industry. I love the soul of this industry. I think it is a great industry. I can't say I'm overjoyed with the changes that have come so far. I mean, I remember when we were cowboys, it was a very much a wild west type situation, moving into where we are now, which is a very much more corporatized situation. But I think the soul and the spirit is still there.
On that I wouldn't want to change. mean, there are things I do want to change. Obviously, I want decent regulators everywhere and decent relations with them, with fair and just rules. I want a reasonable tax rate everywhere that everybody can make money and be happy. I am a big proponent of responsible gaming. I do think it's important. I do think...
I want more attention on that, not in any state levels, but realistic levels. And obviously the things that are happening that I do support so strongly is the uplift of women in gaming to the, I'm not even saying their rightful place, but it is their rightful place. But there are so many powerful women around, just don't know if I look at you, I look at Paris, I look at, you know.
woman that I admire and respect. I think you guys are building the next generation of those property and I think that's a great thing. I like this industry.
Sue (25:22.609)
Well, and I have to admit that watching women in gaming in Africa has been amazing. I've seen a lot of women in gaming groups grow up around the world. I've not seen one come out of the chute quite so quickly with the level of industry support. And you have just such great female leadership down there. And they're working their way into the right positions, but they're so talented. And it's been.
Martin Sack (25:49.065)
Alright.
Sue (25:50.915)
It's been exemplary from my standpoint.
Martin Sack (25:52.971)
Absolutely, I mean I have very little to do with that organisation, it's my partner Lois Bright's initiative as she put it out. But when I can tell you the amount of work that goes into that behind the scenes for the things that she does at the conferences, it is an absolutely amazing thing. And the sport is good and they are doing amazing things for the local talent.
I'm not even just talking Africa, I'm talking just the industry in general. I'm seeing, you know, so many good ones coming up with so many good resources.
Sue (26:28.221)
Mm Well, you mentioned Lois, who I am a huge fan of with what she's been able to accomplish there. Talk a little bit about what you're doing now.
Martin Sack (26:36.868)
what are you doing now? All righty. What am I doing now? So you know what? What I'm doing is I'm consulting, but with an operator's focus, all right? I was an operator first before I moved into consulting, and I think that color is how I look at things. At this stage of my life, it's more about giving back what's.
Sue (26:42.653)
You
Martin Sack (27:06.586)
knowledge I have. The reason I actually went into business with Lois is after my bout of cancer in 2025, I realized being a one-man consultancy is not the right place to be in. So I formalized with her this relationship, this long working relationship we've had over a decade. we building out a basically not selling Martin's time, we building out
base of knowledge to impart to others. Do a little bit of mentoring at the moment, yeah, consulting, consulting, consulting.
Sue (27:47.013)
Yeah, well, and you brought up your health scare and that, I mean, that had a lot of us very worried. So we're glad you've made it to the other side of that.
Martin Sack (27:55.499)
I'm very glad to see I can assure you. Thank you.
Sue (27:59.814)
I bet, I bet. Let me ask you one last question. And that's if you, and I'm sure you do, run into young people who are looking at the industry and thinking, hmm, is that for me? How would you counsel them? What sort of advice might you give them or cautions might you give them as they explore getting into to iGaming and sports betting?
Martin Sack (28:25.962)
It's a great question. I'll give you the first part. Work hard. But that means nothing. That's not the right way. I think you've got to become a generalist in this business. So what do mean when I say that? I'm saying...
You pick a discipline in it, but you've got to learn the surrounding discipline. If you're a retention guy, start understanding what the acquisition guy does. If you're a payments guy, start understanding what the risk guy does. If you're commercial, learn product and learn regulation. If you're technical, start understanding the player and the operator. The broader a view you've got of the business, the more able you are to grow your career,
and move into places because you see where all the pieces are. And I think from just for myself as a consultant, that's exactly what I do. I've seen all the pieces, I've built all the pieces, I've run with all the pieces in various places. So there's nothing foreign to me. And that's, I think, where the youngsters of today probably need to be focusing on.
Sue (29:37.625)
any pitfalls for them to watch out for?
Martin Sack (29:43.496)
Well, we could do the whole AI is going to take your entire job, but I think that's a problem for everybody coming in. I probably got a different view on that. I think a smart man with AI is still going to be around, I think, a...
Sue (29:49.629)
You
Martin Sack (30:04.49)
A smart man without AI is probably going to have a problem. That's a problem. I think I'll lose more sleep on this than any other question. Because I do think entry level jobs are going to be scarce. And the problem with all the AI stuff is they want you, a senior man, to be controlling the machine. How do you become a senior man if you're not a junior man first? So that keeps me up at light.
Sue (30:08.561)
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Sue (30:28.987)
Yeah, well that's a good point. Yeah, that's a good point. Well, any last words of wisdom that we didn't already cover?
Martin Sack (30:39.146)
You know what? No, I think one thing about this and it is advice for someone who want to come in. It's a global industry, but we are very, very small community as you know, And there's something for everybody in this industry. And yeah, I'm just grateful to be here.
Sue (31:01.105)
I think that's a great point because I always call it a small town. If you are unethical or you screw up, it gets around pretty quickly and people are not going to want to do business with you. that's solid advice. OK, I think we're going to wrap it up. We're speaking with Martin Zach out of Cape Town, which I still need to go come see. It's beautiful, looks like. So thank you very much. And we'll wrap it up with that. Thanks.
Martin Sack (31:09.843)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Martin Sack (31:27.731)
Awesome, thank you so much.