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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
You know, I think about the 10 commandments, and I think about that you'll have no other god but me. It's there, I think, in the first place because we will have a god. We're gonna choose to serve something even if we wanna say it's not god. Well, it's something that we we make that we serve, And so choosing to serve God is the first thing we have to do. But what's so difficult is in the world today, our our boys are being inundated with all these different ideas of what a man is, what masculinity is.
Father Jacob Saylor:There's a lot of different cultures that have responded to that in different ways, whether it's to praise it or reject it. Rarely does it have anything to do with the person of Jesus Christ, but that that's where we find a true person. That's where we find a true man. And in any way that we think of masculinity that is incompatible with the person of Jesus Christ articulated through the wisdom of the church, we are not talking about masculinity. We're talking about something less, something that's fallen.
Michelle Moujaes:Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and I want to talk to you and really talk to you for just a minute before we get
Michelle Moujaes:started in today's episode. So a few weeks ago, we had a conversation on this podcast about the unique role that fathers play when boys hit junior high and high school. It was a really important episode, and it landed exactly the way that we hoped it would for a lot of you. But for some of you, it didn't land at all.
Michelle Moujaes:It actually may have even hurt. Our social media lit up with comments from moms who are doing it alone. Widowed moms, divorced moms, moms whose husbands are checked out spiritually or otherwise. Moms who heard a boy needs his father and then quietly thought to themselves, well, great. What does that mean for me and my son?
Michelle Moujaes:Well, we heard you. So this episode is for you. And here's what I wanna say before we go any further. The church has never seen a son raised by a faithful mother as a second class formation story ever. And that's really good news for people like me because I was raised by a single mother.
Michelle Moujaes:My mother was widowed at the time when I was six and my brother was seven. The early church was full of widows raising boys who became bishops and martyrs and pillars of the faith. We know that many people live vibrant lives raised in the household of single parents. So what we're about to talk about today is not a workaround. It's not a backup plan.
Michelle Moujaes:It is one of the most beautiful patterns of formation that the church has seen. It's just that most of us have maybe forgotten how it works. So today, we're talking about how a sun gets formed when the household doesn't look like the picture on the front of the brochure. We're talking about godfathers and priests and the altar and our camps and the parish men's group and the uncle who lives down the street. We're really talking about the wider Christian household.
Michelle Moujaes:We're talking about how we surround our sons with holy men. Be sure to download the free digital discussion guide linked in the show notes below. It's designed, remember, to help you take this conversation home, whether that's to your spouse or to a friend in your parish or to a fellow mom who needs to hear it just like you. Father Jacob Saylor has spent his entire adult life forming young Orthodox Christians. Since 2007, that's nearly twenty years, he's been in youth and young adult ministry, including four years running the Metropolis of San Francisco summer camp, where he watched hundreds, if not thousands of young people walk in as strangers and walk out as part of a family.
Michelle Moujaes:He's a graduate of Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, was ordained to the priesthood in 2018, and now serves as the assistant pastor at Assumption Greek Orthodox Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. He and his wife, Presbyteria Jordan, are raising two sons and a daughter, so he knows this conversation from every direction. Father Jacob, welcome.
Father Jacob Saylor:Thank you for having me.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, it's an honor. So before we really jump into the specifics, let me just tee us up with some information about you. So you've worked in Orthodox youth ministry and in camps, and you've been in parish life for almost twenty years now. Is that right?
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. Well, yeah, that's accurate. Yes, ma'am.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. So that means you've seen a lot of young men be formed and grow up and be raised in the faith, and you've seen a lot of what's worked and what hasn't worked and maybe some of the different struggles that we as parents face with young men. So with that, what have you seen that really works well when young men are being formed in the into the image of Christ to the church? Like, what's the win look like?
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. It's it's a great question. Having worked in the field of youth ministry for a long time, it's it's a question that people, I think, ask in general when they're talking about how do you form and inform a young person into the the man or woman that they've been called to be. And that's a great question. So what would inform, quote, unquote, success?
Father Jacob Saylor:And the nice part is I think anybody probably has in their head who's been Orthodox in this country, the words of father Thomas Hopko. He quoted an interview with mother Teresa where she said, oh, my lord never called me to be successful just to be obedient. And that should be a bit of relief as well that there's no, you know, standardized test at the end of this, save for the fact that we're we're really meant to be the person that god has called us to be, and each one of us does that uniquely in the way that we interact with his commands and our own personalities and the way we respond and love to God uniquely. So how does, in particular, a young man grow into the person that God has has called him to be, and what would success look like is that he would be totally and fully himself to the best of his abilities, constantly formed and informed by Christ, something that we talk about at the baptism, and that he would rely less and less on the kind of general self medication that all of us kind of did in our late teens and early twenties and then started to wrestle with, hopefully, I mean, I don't wanna be this person, what is to say, a curtailed version of myself.
Father Jacob Saylor:I wanna be who God called me to be. And so, you know, the deep end of that pool is is the person called to be a saint, is the person prepared to, you know, to be a martyr.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Father Jacob Saylor:And I'm aware of how inappropriate it is for me to say it as well. I'm in an air conditioned space with indoor plumbing and and light fixtures. So I say it humbly. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:So I wanna say that back to you to make sure that I understood. So when we think about young men or young women or any of us, the call and the invitation is to be most fully who God created us to be. So not in light of everybody else because they're gonna go do what God called them to do or be who God called them to be. But the wind looks like a young man who is transforming into who God invited him to be.
Father Jacob Saylor:Absolutely. I love it. I think it I think it was CS Lewis who once I made that point. He said and forgive me. It sounds sounds like a judgmental statement when you, you know, say it off the cuff, but he says, evil people are boring.
Father Jacob Saylor:They're all the same. He said, if you wanna see true unique persons, look at the saints. Every one of them is unique. And I think that's how he made us. Each one of us, man and woman, and and each one of us in our hearts, we respond to the commands of God differently.
Father Jacob Saylor:And I mean that I keep saying that, but I mean particularly as we refer to the sermon on the mount, the sermon on the plane. We interact with the commands of God to be humble, to love, to be chaste, to be upright, And I think each person's heart responds. Some people say, wow. I wanna honor that by taking care of the poor. Others are, I've I've got a gift for medicine, so I'm gonna go serve people that way.
Father Jacob Saylor:I'll be a priest. I'll be a presbyterra. I'll be a trash collector. I'll be a carpenter. Each person responds to that uniquely with their personality, I think.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So then is there something for young men in particular that would respond to that differently? I don't really know the answer to that. But I just wonder because as I shared with you in an earlier podcast that we did, which I think it was a really important thing to say, we we talked about the need for young men to really have the guidance of their fathers or other male figures in their life. So is there something as we are training up as Orthodox parents, our young men to kind of thrive and lean into who God called them to be that they are uniquely designed to do?
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. I think the first thing I think all parents are dealing with is, and I think rightly so, is our boys you know, I think about the 10 commandments, and I think about that you'll have no other god but me. And and why is that there? It's there, I think, in the first place because we will have a god. We're gonna choose to serve something even if we wanna say it's not god.
Father Jacob Saylor:Well, it's something that we we make that we serve. And so choosing to serve god is the first thing we have to do. But what's so difficult is in the world today, our our boys are being inundated with all these different ideas of what a man is, what masculinity is. There's a lot of different cultures that have responded to that in different ways, whether it's to praise it or reject it or you know? Rarely does it have anything to do with the person of Jesus Christ, and that that's where we find a true person.
Father Jacob Saylor:That's where we find a true man. And and in any way that we think of masculinity that is incompatible with the person of Jesus Christ articulated through the wisdom of the church, we are not talking about masculinity. We're talking about something less, something that's fallen. So in the first place, when you talk about how do we grow and into what are we growing young men, well, into the Adam, into the true human being, which is Christ. So so that's created where we begin.
Father Jacob Saylor:And so I think that starts with parents having to sift through all of the stuff that's gonna be coming at their sons, telling them this is what happiness is, this is what strength is, this is what peace is, this is what success is, almost all of which is just worldly. And for those of us who are old enough to have been there, we'll exhaust ourselves pursuing that life, and we're still not happy. We're still not happy. It doesn't work. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that so much. So in that, I'm gonna say it back one more time. I always say I'm not I'm not the sharpest tack in the box. I wanna make sure I'm understanding you.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. I just had a cup of coffee. That was all this morning.
Michelle Moujaes:I had two actually
Father Jacob Saylor:before this.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's good. That's good. What I heard you say is that the win for any young man, and I would assume for any young woman as well, is that anything less than being transformed into the image of Christ is not true manhood anyway. So as we're raising young men, can you get granular with what you mean?
Michelle Moujaes:Like, what would that look like? Is that like a pursuit of the virtues? Does that mean that we're doing the 70 times seven and the, you know, 10 commandments? What does that look like for a young man?
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. I think the the very first place it has to begin, and this is where I think Orthodoxy can corner the market a little bit, is we don't start with speculative theology and then work our way backwards.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh.
Father Jacob Saylor:We have to have an actual encounter with a person of Jesus Christ. Paul I mean, just it kinda jumps off topic a little bit. Paul has read the Hebrew scriptures. It's not until he has the interaction with Christ that he goes back through and goes, wait a second. This suffering servant of God, this messiah, this is him, and he sees him in the scriptures.
Father Jacob Saylor:The followers of Christ probably have an idea having read the Hebrew scriptures, but it's not until they go back after the resurrection, and the scriptures are open to them first through Christ, you know, him sharing it on the you know, after his resurrection, but they have to go back through, and then they see him. So it's this interaction you have to have with the person of Jesus Christ first. I mean, we call it we take little boys, usually the first step, just like little girls. We take them into the narthex of a church. We look in the direction of the world and everything outside, all the other podcasts, all the other noise, all the other music, everything else, and we say no.
Father Jacob Saylor:We even spit in that direction. We say no more. And then we turn and we face, and we say no longer is that going to form and inform you, but the person of Christ will. So they're taking up, and they encounter him in this mist in this mystery. They literally consume him.
Father Jacob Saylor:We don't wait until they're older, you know, thanks to some Western thoughts later on. The person is baptized into Christ. They put on Christ's body. Their first experience of church as mystery is through the person of Jesus Christ. And it's almost like the church is saying to the parents, keep investing him in this relationship.
Father Jacob Saylor:And then the things that will begin to make sense are the commands he shares with us, like the lifestyle he shares with us. First, it has to be an interaction with the person of Christ, which as you get granular is, well, the next day after the baptism, now what? We'll talk to him in the morning. Like, get on your knees and talk to him. And then late in the evening, talk to him again.
Father Jacob Saylor:And if you can, try to talk to him throughout the day. And then if you can, encounter him in his scriptures. Have your parents reading stories about men and women in the church. Let the children be formed and informed in that space. They really enter a matrix of scripture a a John Bear loves that.
Father Jacob Saylor:A matrix in the Latin sense, a womb. They enter a womb, and they're being formed and informed in that womb. So the first step you'd say to get past a priest talking in circles there's always a joke. What takes an hour is let a priest talk for five minutes. Because the first thing they have to do is they have to encounter Jesus as Jesus is.
Father Jacob Saylor:And and then kinda like the blind man, they do what we all have done. First, we encounter him as as a person, and then we think of him as a prophet and a teacher, and then we think of him as maybe the messiah, and then we move on to, oh my gosh. This is this is God incarnate. So that's the first step. And if a parent's doing that, they're not missing they're they're not far off.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Father Jacob Saylor:Am I actually praying with my child every day? Am I actually reading the scriptures with the child every day? Am I going to the divine services? That's kind of the the first step, so to speak.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. And anybody can do that. Mom or do that.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. Well, I mean, you you you have a famous story of what Basil in his youth, he has this incredible interaction with these 40 martyrs, talking about a group of men. And why does he have this encounter? Well, his grandmother takes him to an all night vigil. And he does what most kids he says his age does, is he goes outside to fall asleep in the area outside the church and has this, you know, incredible encounter and a vision.
Father Jacob Saylor:But, yeah, it's it's always been strong men and strong women.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. I love this. So is there anything that I I shared at the top of this episode? I was raised by a single mother. Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:My dad was killed by a drunk driver when I was six. My brother was seven, and she never dated. She never married. Like, her whole life was about raising us in the faith. And she did it beautifully.
Michelle Moujaes:Wow. She did it beautifully and played both parts for all intents and purposes. But I also had an army of men around me. So uncles, grandparents, godparents, you name it. You know, men in the church or or my priest for sure growing up that really poured into my brother and I and really had a a huge impact on us.
Michelle Moujaes:And I would wonder without that, I don't know what if it would have looked different or not, but I would guess it would have. So for those moms who are raising kids, and we have a lot of them. We know our audience. We have a lot of single moms and moms that maybe have gone through divorce or they have a husband who may not be present even though they're not technically single. What would we say to them?
Michelle Moujaes:Is it necessary that they have male influence for their children and especially their sons?
Father Jacob Saylor:I think it's wise for moms to get their sons around good men because whether they like it or not, their sons will be around men. And so to help them to develop the sense of That's good. Is a proper man? Who's a trustworthy man? I think and you see this when when young men have a good coach.
Father Jacob Saylor:Like, think of my good football coach. His name's Rod Bowers. Like, it goes back, I remember in high school. But he he was a deeply Christian man, and that was totally formational to me. So I think when when you make sure that your sons are surrounded by something as close as to the kind of man they would want their boy to grow into, that's wise.
Father Jacob Saylor:In the same way that I really want my sons to be around not just their mom, who's wonderful, but other good and wonderful Christian women because my hope is that they'll look at that and go, oh, wow. That's the kind of woman I'd want to marry or or to trust or to have around my life. Or God willing, I have my own children, I'd I'd raise her into that.
Michelle Moujaes:No. I love that so much. So what I hear us both saying is that example is important of what Christian I can I want
Father Jacob Saylor:to encourage moms as well? It takes a community anyway. So I've I've done summer camp ministry forever going back. You know, I was running the Metropolis summer camp for the for the Greek archdiocese in the West Coast. And I should point out I'm not saying this to brag, but just because I've done it before.
Father Jacob Saylor:We've worked at Camp Saint Paul in New York, and Ionean Village in Greece, Camp Saint Stephen's in South Carolina, and other camps before and since. And I remember a dad at the end of the the session came up to me. The parents are saying goodbye. Music's playing. Everybody's taking off after a really powerful week.
Father Jacob Saylor:And this dad comes up to me, and he goes, do you know what my son just said to me? He goes, dad, Jacob Saylor said this to me. And the dad goes, I have told my son that phrase 57 times.
Michelle Moujaes:700 times.
Father Jacob Saylor:And he comes up to me and goes, you know what I learned this week, dad? And I thought to myself, by the happy accident of my birthday being way later than his dad And because I wasn't his dad, and all of us can agree with this no matter our age, I heard it.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes.
Father Jacob Saylor:And so even a even a dad if you have a household of men, you want your sons to be around other men who are reinforcing the same things. So whether you're a woman or just a man, a a healthy marriage couple or whatever, surrounding your kids with with healthy adults and people to reinforce the messages, it takes a village.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. I love that so much. And I think I I know that to be true, not only in my children's life, but in my own life. The idea that sometimes I can't hear it, you know, from whoever it is.
Michelle Moujaes:So when we talk about men in the lives of our children or other people that might step into that role to have that influence that you talked about as part of the village. Is there anything that you can speak to those of us in the church? Like, so for example, my one of my sons, his best friend's dad died while they were in high school. And so some of the teachers or my husband have kind of stepped in to be a presence in some way. It's not the easiest thing to do, but it does feel like it's something that we as the village and as the body of Christ are called to do.
Michelle Moujaes:So is there any way we can make that a little bit less, I don't wanna say awkward, but sometimes it is a little awkward. Like, how far can you push? When do you stand like, for example, I'm gonna get super granular now.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Sure. In our church yesterday, watched a kid have a meltdown and start kind of hitting his mom. And so did the men step in to say anything? Like, what are the boundaries on that? Can you give us some rules about that?
Father Jacob Saylor:I think let love reign. Like, like, wherever the guidance is needed, it should be done. I I mean, in the first place, I imagine where people need help, they're gonna ask for it. And I think sometimes people have to get to the point where things are not really good, and sometimes they're really not good before they start asking for help.
Michelle Moujaes:That's true. I believe that to
Father Jacob Saylor:be true. It'd be great if we could normalize the sense of this is not charity. This is what the the role of being a body is. This is we're a community. Our role is to support one another, to help one another, to be candid with each other, to confess our sins to one another, to help us raise our children together.
Father Jacob Saylor:You can definitely cross boundaries, and and people should be careful about that. But I don't think there's anything wrong with walking up being like, hey. Can I can I help out here? Can I get involved, or can I offer, you know
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm?
Father Jacob Saylor:Any support? And and if I'm too close, you tell me to push back a little bit. In moments like that, especially when a kid is kind of losing it, it's it's tough.
Michelle Moujaes:It is tough.
Father Jacob Saylor:It's tough.
Michelle Moujaes:You know, as someone so so when my father passed away and again, it was a tragic accident. So it was like overnight, we were like, this father was orphans. And some of the men in our church community and in the, you know, broader Christian community where we were being raised stepped in. And I think one of the things that was the biggest blessing for my brother and I was the relationship that was built, not in some profound like parenting moment, but just with the time spent. So for example, Albert was one of my dad's best friends who, like, took it upon himself with his wife, and they were with us a lot.
Michelle Moujaes:And he taught my brother how to, whatever, tie a tie, mow the grass, you know, garden, those things. And the kind of time that was spent, I think, was really transformative with us. I think the call out to those of us in modern day life, you know, this was again forty years ago. Forty years ago. It was almost fifty years ago.
Michelle Moujaes:I almost lied about my age in front of all of the Orthodox Christian Parenting Podcast audience. Okay. Anyway, but one of the things that was different then was that we had margin of time. But I think now that's something we have to intentionally fight for as the body of Christ is to create time and opportunity to be in relationship and invite those people in that may not have a strong presence in the household, whether it be a mom or a dad.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. And I think I think increasingly, especially in The States, we have to deal with this sense of isolation. Because it's such a loss and this the loss of trust in institutions and in participation. People, I think, need to realize that there is an expectation when you enter the church. There's an expectation of of mutual love and support and prayer and everything else.
Father Jacob Saylor:We're always shaping each other in in every little way, whether we want to or not. Kids are gonna pick up things from other adults all the time, and I think it's it's probably a reminder to all of us adults that we're always being watched and that our our behavior matters. And I think a lot of times where where I've seen it work with kids that I've worked with who've lost a dad or dad's no longer in the home is when the men who get involved go, hey. I'm not trying to be your dad, and I can't replace your dad. Mhmm.
Father Jacob Saylor:But I love you, and and here's if I can help you, here's what we'll do. And I think they appreciate that too. Yeah. It's amazing how often I think young people just need somebody to talk to who's not caught up in what's my response, who just goes, yeah. I get that.
Father Jacob Saylor:Get it off your chest. And if you have to use the four four letter word to get it out, I appreciate that too. God can handle that. Like, what's on your heart?
Michelle Moujaes:Is that something that we I'm gonna ask you as a priest now. I find for a lot of young people, there's this kind of dichotomy between a comfort to go to the priest or maybe I shouldn't burden the priest with that.
Father Jacob Saylor:This is something we have to work on in general with people. I I find, you know, like a lot of places that our church is growing. It goes to this this question you asked, like, everywhere. Tons of katakumas, tons of people. And one of the things that you often see is this we kinda bring in our our western stuff with us is we first come to the church, and because we we know we're leaving on the outside, we're very quick we wanna talk to the priest.
Father Jacob Saylor:We wanna open up to the priest. We wanna share our sins. We wanna share our struggles. And then we get baptized, and then we come into the church. And then because we know him, we know others, we go, wait.
Father Jacob Saylor:Now I need to present myself as perfectly clean and nothing's wrong, and I'm deodorized and sanitized, and my suit fits right, and my hair is perfectly parted, and and I have no problems and no struggles at all. I don't wanna go to the priest because I don't wanna burden him or or make him think differently of me. Well, the priest has to go to confession. I gotta go to confession too. And I have the same fears.
Father Jacob Saylor:I'm I'm thinking my spiritual father is never gonna look at me the same. He's gonna judge me. What is this guy doing? No. One of the dangerous things we do, and John Chrysostom talks about this too, is sometimes we come into the church precisely not to deal with our stuff, and it makes us even crazier.
Father Jacob Saylor:It'd be like going to a hospital with a broken leg and trying not to limp on it and just say, no. I'm okay. I think I just need some Advil. It's like, no. This is a hospital.
Father Jacob Saylor:And it's not just at first, it's your whole life, which means the questions will change. You know, you can't walk through the same river twice. Everything is gonna constantly be evolving, and your priest is evolving too. So if I if I could say something on behalf of all clergy on you that they would all agree with, you are never ever ever burdening your priest.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Father Jacob Saylor:Nick, talk to him.
Michelle Moujaes:Talk beautiful. That's beautiful. Okay. I want you to say that one more time because
Father Jacob Saylor:I feel like are never especially and I mean, this should be done said doubly. For young people, you're never ever bothering your priest. You can text, call, email. And if we don't get back to you, I promise you, we're not annoyed. We're probably busy.
Father Jacob Saylor:So if you keep texting and keep calling, we're never gonna roll our eyes. It's gonna be like, I'm so sorry. I've not gotten back to you. Yes. Talk to your clergy.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that. And I think that's a call out to moms as well who are bearing the brunt of things Yeah. Maybe without an engaged dad in the house. Don't be afraid to lean on your clergy.
Father Jacob Saylor:Hats off to you moms who are doing it solo because there could be this sense of just like, I quit. It's too much. Let do whatever you're gonna do. Go out. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. Who are struggling to make it happen, the whole kingdom of heaven is watching.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more.
Father Jacob Saylor:And, like, we're all praying for you. And whatever you need from us, like, let us know. And if you don't mind, we need help too. Like I said, my my kids are six, five, and 18 old. I've got no idea what crosses our head.
Father Jacob Saylor:Mhmm. You know? So so if you don't mind That's Right. So right now, I don't mind being a person to support. If you'll just do me a favor, in about ten years, can I come to you and go
Michelle Moujaes:That's right?
Father Jacob Saylor:I don't know what to do here. Help me out.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Father Jacob Saylor:You guys can rub my back and go, it's you're gonna be okay, father. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. You'll make it. You'll make it. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:I love this. So when it comes to faith and handing down the faith, is there anything that you would wanna call out for moms or for those people raising, maybe in a one parent household raising sons? Is there anything that is particularly important that we know for our boys? Would it be different than for our girls, or is it the same? But what is it when we think about handing down the faith and faith transmission that we should keep top of mind?
Father Jacob Saylor:I would say one of the things you often see with with people because so many of our churches are doing well at youth ministry. There's a lot of national materials too that people are using, whether it's digital or otherwise. There are young adult groups. There are high school groups. There are trips like Project Mexico, which people I'm sure are familiar with their summer camps.
Father Jacob Saylor:Mhmm. You will inevitably have your child say to you, I don't wanna go. That's boring. That's lame. And in those moments, I would encourage you that your response is neat.
Father Jacob Saylor:I drop you off at the church. I'll pick you up when it's done. You know, for some reason, we don't when if a kid comes to us and says, I don't wanna do my homework, we don't go, okay. Don't do it. We go, no.
Father Jacob Saylor:You gotta do your homework. I don't wanna go to those lessons. You gotta go to those lessons. When the church offers something that your children can take advantage of, have them do it.
Michelle Moujaes:So good.
Father Jacob Saylor:Have them do it.
Michelle Moujaes:So good.
Father Jacob Saylor:Because there's so much that, you know, you can outsource in this space. Let them do it. And then you're also allowed as as a member of the body of your local community to say to them, I think we should have this as well. I'm wondering if we could offer this as well. Great.
Father Jacob Saylor:So I think that's one thing. Because in some sense, there's no need on the practical level to reinvent the wheel. Obviously, people are trying to work. They're busy. It's like take advantage of the ministries that are there is what I was saying.
Michelle Moujaes:And there are so many and so many great ones. There's so many great ones, and so I just reiterate that.
Father Jacob Saylor:Area that that's not being addressed, bring it to the priest and kinda say, hey. I'd like to help here, or I've seen this done elsewhere. Yeah. That's great. Yes.
Michelle Moujaes:And you know what? I think it's ancient faith that's putting out, and I'm gonna say it wrong, so forgive me ancient faith. But they do have a weekly or monthly encyclical that gives just ministry after ministry, like what's going on in the Orthodox world. So I would go on to ancientfaith.com or .org. I'm, like, doing the worst for ancient faith right now, but I know that they put out the information that's really, really helpful for people to know what's going on.
Michelle Moujaes:And then for young people, tap into your archdiocese. I I can't second that enough because I know that Yeah. If we really want them to love the church, they've gotta be engaged in it, and that there are so many beautiful ways to do that. Beautiful.
Father Jacob Saylor:I would encourage you, I if there are any clergy that are happening to listen to this, really empower your young adults and equip them to be people who can give back to the younger people in the church.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Father Jacob Saylor:I I find often as a priest, one of the things that's difficult is you try to work with the high schoolers first when you come into a situation. And I know this sounds kind of off topic, but that that that's a difficult group to work with first because they're incredibly busy, and they don't all have the ability to drive. They don't have access. They don't have mobility. So if you start working with the littlest kids first, which is important because you hopefully can, like, work with stuff at that young age before they kinda fall into it, They have you know, they're not terribly mobile, but they don't they're not that busy.
Father Jacob Saylor:Their parents can drop them off at events. And then if you work with that that college group, the young adult group, they they might be busy, but they have mobility. I think these are the two groups you work with first, and you work your way into the middle, and then you really equip your young adults to, like yeah. Because these kids will get so used to coming to something, they just grow into it. And this group of young adults starts providing a vision of here's regular participation in the church, and then you equip them to actually work with these people.
Father Jacob Saylor:Because, like, stuff that I could say now, I'm 42, that they'll roll their eyes at, but that a 24 year old could say and they go, yeah. You know, what he said is totally right. Kinda like that dad experience I had.
Michelle Moujaes:That's great.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. If there is a mom right now who's feeling the weight of it and has been carrying it probably quietly or largely alone, probably with a lot of fear, what would your words of encouragement for her to be? Like, what what's the next thing that you would encourage her to do? Not like a five step plan, but like one thing that she can tangibly do to get wholly good men in the life of her son or sons if or daughters if she doesn't have that.
Father Jacob Saylor:I mean, the first thing I would say, George, is be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with yourself. It does it like, people will say that that's probably father Jacob trying to be a a therapist in the twenty first century because after all, it's a, again, a deodorized, sanitized, polite postmodern world. That that was counsel given to me from my spiritual father who's who's an Athenite monk in this formation. Be gentle.
Father Jacob Saylor:Be gentle with yourself.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I think that's so actually important, father. It really is.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. Because you can't you often will hear metaphors in scripture of seeds and seeds growing into these, you know, trees, but you can't beat a seed into the earth. You have to carefully pull the earth back. And then even when you put the seed into it, you can't pack the clay on top of it, and then you water it, but not too much water. The temperature matters.
Father Jacob Saylor:The sunlight matters as well. But if you do these things and it's done gently, then it will grow into an oak tree that a hurricane can't knock over. So I would tell the mom, be gentle with yourself. Two, I would say, go back to your knees. Talk to the mother of God.
Father Jacob Saylor:She knows what it's like to raise a child, and and talk to the saints. Pray. Pray. Pray. There's there's so many stories of miraculous things happening.
Father Jacob Saylor:I think of one with Pius Piusius, and there was a man who was possessed by him. And the account, as it was shared with me, is they they bring this possessed guy onto Mount Athos hoping that, you he can have an interaction with a holy elder. Gets off the boat. He's foaming at the mouth. He's making noises.
Father Jacob Saylor:The stories that was shared with me is Paesios is there. The man gets in his face. Paesios, I think he I think strikes him on top of the head just to get him to stop, and everybody's frozen. And Paesios, this great saint says, I'll deal with you tomorrow or deal with you tonight, and just walks away. And, of course, the crowd around him go, you've just offended the old man.
Father Jacob Saylor:Get this guy out of here. So they they push him back. And in that night, in the middle of the night, as I as it was told to me, there's they're in this small kind of place they're staying, and there's what they think is an earthquake in the middle of the night. And his friend goes to check on him, and there's his buddy sitting in his right mind confused. What's going on?
Father Jacob Saylor:They take him back to Mount Athos. Yeah. He goes there and wants to say thank you, and, of course, one of the the monks is there who tells him, again, how the story was shared with me, you know, go pray. Go do confession. You know, go be an honorable and holy man.
Father Jacob Saylor:The reason the story is so profound to me is that in this first interaction he has with this man, he was possessed. Paisios isn't concerned about, I'm gonna have it out with this guy or me and this demon are about to have it out. He just goes up on the mountain and talks to God. He goes, you love him more than I do. He's yours.
Father Jacob Saylor:What do you wanna do with him? Free him. And we're we're all reminded that our children are given to us as gifts and that the names that we have of parent, in particular, in this case, dad, that a a is borrowed. Their ultimate parent, their ultimate god, their father's god. And so, of course, my job is to not sell you that name so much that they get angry at god, which I think is what is a lot going on in this world, and instead to try to present dad as a person that they know they can trust and love.
Father Jacob Saylor:And, anyway, so I say all that to say the other thing I'd say is after after being gentle, pray. Talk to God. Remind him, like, he's yours. He's yours more than he's mine, and and you say them. You heal him.
Father Jacob Saylor:And then the next practical step after that is bring him to the church. In the home, make sure that the messages in the home aren't undermining the church. I mean, if you take a kid home after Sunday, and as soon as the priest is done, you go, that guy's an idiot. Don't listen to him at all. Well, you've just undermined to a six or seven year old kid this, so reinforce it.
Michelle Moujaes:That's really good.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. And it's just like, read the scriptures with your children. Tell them same stories. There's so many materials out there too, books that are age appropriate for this. And then when the church offers something, take them there.
Father Jacob Saylor:Because as many stories as we have, and I'm talking too much of people who didn't work out, there are many stories of people for whom it did. And when you talk to the parents, they did precisely this. And I might add, if I could, if you are a parent who is praying, if you're a parent who is bringing your child around the church, if you're doing your absolute best to make sure the materials they're consuming and the people they're around are reinforcing the life and the messages of the church, which is Christ himself, there's not a whole lot else you can do. At this point, you've said to God, I've done the best I can, your will. And so it's not for you to have to sort of wash your hands.
Father Jacob Saylor:I I think we pray for our children forever. It gets small kids, small problems, big kids, big problems. But at that point, at least you've done what you can. And I know the very most important thing is be an example of yourself.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Father Jacob Saylor:Now a person will say, yeah, but I fail every day. Well, then be an example of repentance. I mess up every day. Well, be a person who says, I'm sorry. If there's nothing else you can offer, the humility of just getting up every day and reminding your child, like, I'm not God, but I'm doing the best I can to serve him.
Father Jacob Saylor:You know, don't look at me. Look at Christ. That can be enough of a witness.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Is great.
Father Jacob Saylor:That's the one I'm working on anyway.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love it so much. I love it so much. That's so helpful. Alright.
Michelle Moujaes:Do you have time for just a question or two from our audience?
Father Jacob Saylor:Ask away. Was wonderful. I had an ordination yesterday. My second spiritual child in the last two months was just ordained a priest, which is the coolest, yeah, coolest thing ever.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so great.
Father Jacob Saylor:Well, I've been watching a young man grow into the continue to grow into the person God's called him to be. It was really humbling.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, that's really beautiful. Did you learn anything we should know from that from that process?
Father Jacob Saylor:We have so much so many ideas of what we need to inculcate into people. Mhmm. And, you know, doctor Tim Petitsas, that's a guy who should be interviewed. He's he's a giant. Yeah.
Father Jacob Saylor:And he talks
Michelle Moujaes:about worked with us on a on a project called the relationship project. He's incredible. Tim, if you get that, we're coming for you. We need to have him back on. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. It's happening.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. He but he wrote this paper once, and he talked about how, for instance, you know, we have an idea of, you know, what what the man is, and I should say it with a deeper octave than the voice I have now. But and and I don't say this lightly. Grew up in the South. I went to a military college, played football in high school, you know, so the guy thing, whatever.
Father Jacob Saylor:But one of the things he noticed is that when you talk about Basil the great, I think it was at his I think it's Gregory the theologian who gave his eulogy and spoke about him in oration. And if I'm if I'm remembering this correctly, it's been fifteen years since seminary. He points out that while he describes him as a person who roamed the earth like he owned it, he says he was more gentle than any woman, more tender, more kind. And then you read hymns about the Theotokos, and she's this queen, this fortress, this mighty person. How do we arrive at that?
Father Jacob Saylor:Because in the modern world, what people will say is, well, to get there, what Basil needed to do is reject masculinity, reject the x y chromosome idea, reject it all, or go to war with it or try to transform it. It's like, no. No. No. No.
Father Jacob Saylor:He has been, in some sense, made by God as a man, and what he does is by living the life of of a man and the call that a man has of being a leader. Being a leader turns him into this servant. Of being brave turns him into this humble person. Of being a provider turns him into to a person who thinks of himself last. And then you think of this mother of God who, by in some sense, submitting herself to the will of God and by being this woman, through her tenderness, she becomes the strength.
Father Jacob Saylor:Through her utter humility, she becomes a tower. And and so what we do is, again, pursuing what God has in front of us as men and women pursue this in different ways, they end up becoming a full human being. And we kind of laud them for traits that you might not see that you would think of when you think of a man. Because a true Christian man, strong, yes, humble, tenderhearted, meek. Yes.
Michelle Moujaes:A true
Father Jacob Saylor:Christian woman, tender and lovely, strong, mighty. You know? It's incredible.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. That's a good reminder too. Yeah. I think
Father Jacob Saylor:sometimes doctor Tim Petitsas.
Michelle Moujaes:Doctor Tim. Thank you. Doctor Petitsas.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. Thank you, doctor. Of course, he's shaking his head going, that's the worst summary of one of my thesis I've ever
Michelle Moujaes:No. No. We love it. The the problem is I think we get so much messaging on what, you know, gender or manhood or being a woman looks like from the world, and it's so different from that.
Father Jacob Saylor:Totally different.
Michelle Moujaes:I really love the reminder for all of us as parents to, like, let's go back to the source of life.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. Let's think of it. Maybe we mentioned this once before. Is it I think we talked about Carl Stern. He writes a book called Flight from Woman and talks about
Michelle Moujaes:about that.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. And he talks about even fallen man became the idol, not just for men, but for women. Men didn't just abandon what it was to be a true human being. Women did too. Men abandoned some true form of masculinity for some worldly one, and in some sense, did too.
Father Jacob Saylor:This is this flight from woman, and we're all pursuing this fallen idea of what it is to be a human being. In that sense, we're not living yet. We're surviving, I suppose, but but to be a true human being is to is is to follow the human being. Yeah. It's it's so it's so important that that's what's and that's why I think you have to form and inform a child in this because as they get older, a man will ask himself, am I am I living up to the person of Jesus Christ?
Father Jacob Saylor:This might be helpful as well if your audience members haven't turned off the dial by now. We do this great devotional at camp where the first night we bring all the boys around, there's a campfire. And anybody who does camp knows you're trying to get ahead of the kids and didn't have them follow you. It's difficult to get in front of a parade, so you kinda see where the parade is going, get in front of it, and then redirect it. We get the boys around a campfire.
Father Jacob Saylor:We talk about what it is to be a man. We some of the work we used was I'll have to remember the book at a different time. We'll ask the boys in a circle, you know, what's their favorite guy movie? Go. They talk saving private Ryan, the gladiator, stuff like that.
Father Jacob Saylor:Newer movies have come out since. And we'll go, We chat for a little bit, and then we go let's start a devotional here, and we'll tell each of them. I want you to think of a a man in your life that really is to you what a man ought to be. Like, the picture of a man in your mind. And give about two or three minutes of silence, and then we go in a circle.
Father Jacob Saylor:Fire's popping. It's beautiful in California mountains. And the first you'll talk about is Papu, his grandfather. And what what was it that made him a man to you? The way he provided.
Father Jacob Saylor:Oh, yeah? Yeah. He came here with nothing in his pocket, which a lot of people can agree with. And then his whole life became about serving his family. And you go, well, if you had to identify him with one word, he'd go service.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. Okay. The next one. What about you? Oh, the priest in my community.
Father Jacob Saylor:Oh, yeah? I think of one example, for instance. Yeah. My my dad wasn't around much, and the priest was kind of always there, and this guy always went to, and he always said this way about him. And he go, if you could describe one thing, who would it be?
Father Jacob Saylor:And he's like, support. And so you can start going through this, and you have all these guys, and what you find interesting is none of them are talking about superheroes.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. They're glad he is.
Father Jacob Saylor:Talk about anybody in the, you know, the manosphere online. All of them are talking about coaches, priests, dads, uncles, grandfathers, all all of them with that feel. I've I did this for years. You know, a decade of this kind of work. And, yeah, three times every time.
Father Jacob Saylor:They're always talking about persons with whom they have a relationship, and then they're all describing these sacrifice, you know, love, strength. You go through this. And then what you do at the end of the this devotional is you go, okay. Each one of you, do you remember the one word you shared? They go, okay.
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. I've got you got it? Okay. We hold up the icon of Christ, and we go, okay. Each person just say your word.
Father Jacob Saylor:As they go around, you tend to look at them, and they figured it out. You don't want to insult their intelligence. You go, who are you all ultimately describing? Yeah. And they go, him.
Father Jacob Saylor:Like, yeah. This is the true human being. This is what a man looks like. The word man, that's a that's a copyrighted word. That's our word.
Michelle Moujaes:Our word as as Orthodox?
Father Jacob Saylor:Yeah. It's not their word. It's our word. When we talk about a human being or what is a woman or what is a man, that's our word. We have copyright on that one.
Father Jacob Saylor:And so everybody tends to use it and throw it around like they understand it, but they don't. And if it's not being seen or understood in and through the person of Jesus, it's probably being misunderstood. Even where people mean well. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:I love that so much. I love that so much. Alright. This one comes from Anna in Michigan. She's the mother of two boys, ages eight and 11, and she asks, my ex husband isn't Orthodox and isn't practicing any form of religion.
Michelle Moujaes:My boys go to him every other weekend, which means they miss liturgy half the time. I feel like I'm constantly losing ground every other week. How can I think about this productively without spiraling?
Father Jacob Saylor:God bless you, Anna. Your heart's absolutely in the right place. The fact that you're watching these kind of podcasts and the fact that your concern is that they're they're only making liturgy every other week, they're already in really good hands with the wonderful mom. And the nice part is this isn't a sprint. It's a marathon, which means you're gonna be there for all of these stories.
Father Jacob Saylor:And while at times it might feel like I feel like I'm losing them, you're their only mom, which means as they go through college or maybe they go to the military or work or as they get married and have their own children, you'll still be there. And so what's really cool is I'm gonna guess that your natural impulse is maintaining the relationship first, which is wisdom. You can win the argument and lose the person. So you being there to continue to engage your sons and to be a constant example of, yes, fidelity to God, but also gentleness and love to your sons with expectation, you're probably doing way more than you probably think you are. That's the first thing I would say to her.
Michelle Moujaes:I would agree.
Father Jacob Saylor:Then I would encourage her to do what she's probably already doing, which is praying. You just keep Yes. Talking to the lover of mankind. I'd like to remind her too. Remember, you're speaking to the alpha and the omega, and I don't mean that descriptively.
Father Jacob Saylor:I mean that ontologically, which is to say, he heard the prayers you are praying for your children before they were born, and prayers make firm the foundations of their homes. That's what we say at every wedding. You keep praying. You keep talking to God. What I would say to the boys is probably I would probably share that concern with them.
Father Jacob Saylor:Like, guys, you're getting old enough that that these choices matter now. And we don't go to church because it's obligation. We go because it it turns us into human beings. It makes dead people alive, not just bad people good. And so I think I would keep reminding them, you know, even if it's your dad's and God bless him for whatever he's going through.
Father Jacob Saylor:He hasn't prioritized this, but you should. I would tell him, if you could with your brother in the morning when you first get up, just talk to God. When that that day of the Lord, talk to him. But I know we're dads. We love our dad.
Father Jacob Saylor:Okay. He's got his own stuff. But but our mama raised us right. She told us that we should be honoring you this day. And I would just tell her, boys, say a quick little prayer.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. I love it. And listen, we're not gonna always get it right. But again, as someone who grew up without a dad in the home, the impact of the men in my life and we came from a very strong family system, so I don't wanna, you know
Father Jacob Saylor:No. Of course. No. Of course, do. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Negate, like, my uncles, my grandfather, like, everybody was, like, in it to win it.
Father Jacob Saylor:But It takes a village.
Michelle Moujaes:Takes a village.
Father Jacob Saylor:And and you find this actually even where boys I mean, one of the things we could talk about too is how many times do we have boys who are from really good stock with good parents who don't end up with following things right now? Mhmm. So, I mean, it's it's it takes a village. We need to have the kids the message, you know, birds of a feather flock together. Our boys being around Christian men is important.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. That's right. That's right. We have we have a a group study for men that Faith Tree put out called the Lionheart Sessions, and it's so interesting. So it's about intentional manhood.
Michelle Moujaes:And so Mhmm. We had all these bishops and priests and people come in and talk about what did it look like to be a Christian man. And one of the things that started happening we noticed was that high schoolers were starting to, you know, do this program in their churches with their dads or not with their dads. And I think that our young men are hungry for the example of what it looks like.
Father Jacob Saylor:There was a book that came out several years ago from the protestants called wild wild at heart?
Michelle Moujaes:What? Yes. John Eldridge. Yes. John Eldridge.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. Yes. Yes.
Father Jacob Saylor:And I was at I was at the Virginia Military Institute at that time. And I remember that was really popular. We went back to visit our friends' churches. We were Protestant, and rooms were packed with people. I really honestly it it's so true.
Father Jacob Saylor:Men and women alike, but men, for the conversation we're having today, need a vision and responsibility. They they need to know that they're offering themselves to something greater than themselves.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Father Jacob Saylor:But they also need to know that they're loved they're loved by Christ. Yeah. That that really matters to give them a sense of meaning. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. And I think seeing in human form, like Mhmm. The embodiment of this is what Christian manhood looks like is a gift for all And of our so I would just encourage I'm saying this as a kid who was raised in a single parent household. Don't be afraid to fight for that for your kids. Go ask.
Michelle Moujaes:Whether it's your priest, someone in your church, go find them because it does make a really big difference. Like, this is what it looks like. Right? Because if you don't like, for example, in my household, we don't have a man showing us how to treat a woman, right, so that I wouldn't know what that looked like. Now my mom did one heck of a job making that super, like she talked about it all the time.
Michelle Moujaes:This is what your dad, you know, did. This is how he would treat me. This is what it looked like. But she also made sure to have my brother and I surrounded by examples of that. So
Father Jacob Saylor:Which is so neat because what you're saying is she testified to your dad making him present. Mhmm. That's we do for
Michelle Moujaes:She did that super well. Sorry not to make this about, like, my mom.
Father Jacob Saylor:That's what we do about that's we do with Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Absolutely. I love it.
Father Jacob Saylor:Because of, yeah, because of her witness, you and your brothers absolutely were informed by your dad.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. That's so true. Oh, that's so good. I'm gonna call my mom. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Alright. Very cool. Well, I am so grateful. Anything you wanna add before we let you go?
Father Jacob Saylor:Oh my gosh. Nothing at all. Thanks for thanks for letting us be on here. Like like Michelle said, I had a dad and I had a wonderful dad. My my mom actually died, you know, ten years ago or so.
Father Jacob Saylor:And but I was very blessed to have both in my home. But even having a dad, my dad knew, and I think a lot of folks do. Michelle, you know, and all the guys who are on recording this in the background know, and anybody listening knows. When I think about the men who informed my life, it's not just my dad. It's it's a ton of men and women who, like, really, you know
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Father Jacob Saylor:Pointed me to Christ. So I'm very indebted to them. Thank you so much too, by the way. What you are doing here is wonderful. So
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, thank you, father.
Father Jacob Saylor:Thanks for
Michelle Moujaes:letting me join people oh, are you kidding? We're gonna have you back for sure. Tell us where we can find you. Where can people find what you're doing? I know you're doing some some really cool stuff in Arizona.
Michelle Moujaes:You wanna give a shout out to the school?
Father Jacob Saylor:That's it. We're doing some great stuff. Arizona Christian Academy is also opening up this fall. They're gonna open up with some lower grades, I think, k through three or four.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. I love it.
Father Jacob Saylor:And we're here at Assumption Orthodox Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. So
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Father Jacob Saylor:If you're ever in Scottsdale, come see us.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, absolutely. Well, we sure appreciate you, and God bless you. And thank you for your time.
Father Jacob Saylor:God bless you. Thank you so much.
Michelle Moujaes:And thanks to you for being here with us today. If you're a single mom and you're here, I want you to hear this clearly, especially if you've been carrying the weight of parenting alone. You are not behind. You are not failing. You are not the exception.
Michelle Moujaes:You are truly standing in a long beautiful line of faithful Orthodox mothers, saints among them who have raised sons that love God. And you're not doing it by yourself. Remember that the church is your household and the parish is your village. Maybe it's a godfather that's partnering with you on something. Maybe it's the priest that's walking with you in another way.
Michelle Moujaes:The communion of saints is the wider family standing right behind you, praying you up the hill. And so if you are that mom, here's what I want you to do this week. Remember that we are here for you, however imperfectly. Maybe pick one person, the godfather, the priest, the uncle, the deacon, or some faithful man in your parish that you've noticed but you've never really approached. Find one person and when you need them, tell them you'd love their presence in your son's life.
Michelle Moujaes:And if you are one of those men in the church, be present, be welcoming and approachable so that a mom can reach out to you. The only way we'll ever get there through all of the parenting struggles that we have and triumphs that we have is together. Don't forget to download the free digital discussion guide and if today's episode encouraged you, please share it with someone who might need to hear it. We will see you next time.