Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In this limited podcast series from Oil Change International, host Shady Khalil pulls back the curtain on the true cost of fossil fuels and the villains blocking climate action. Through candid conversations with global climate leaders, the podcast explores the damage caused by fossil fuels, the obstacles in our path, and how people-powered movements are forging the path towards a just and equitable transition that leaves no one behind.
From the frontlines of the climate crisis to the global halls of power, we look at the political, economic, and people-powered battles shaping our future. This is not just a fight about climate and carbon, it’s a fight for people and justice. Together we can create the livable future we deserve.
New episodes will be released every week. Find out more at https://oilchange.org/burned/
Shady Khalil (00:03)
Hello everyone, this is Shady Khalil from Oil Change International. You're listening to Burned: The Price of Oil, a podcast where we expose the true cause of fossil fuels and the villains blocking climate action and how a movement of people power is fighting back to create momentum for just an equitable transition that leaves no one behind. Joining me today in this episode, someone that I really ⁓ respect and look up for and ⁓ I don't think I think this is the first time that we engage.
But I've seen you with the negotiation rooms at many points and I've been always inspired by the work that you are leading. Tina Eonemto Stege, the climate envoy for the Marshall Islands. Thank you so much for joining us. It's an honor to have you on the show.
Tina Eonemto Stege (00:49)
Thank you so much, Shady. It's a privilege to be here with you.
Shady Khalil (00:53)
I mean, just a few weeks ago, we were in Belém in Brazil at COP30. I hope you are rested. I'm not sure if I can say the same about myself. We just came back from Belém, from Brazil, the United Nations climate talks, where we have had some time to rest and reflect on the wearable of the negotiations. And in today's episode, we are going to go a bit deeper into what the COP30 outcome means for the fight for a fair and funded fossil fuel phase out.
and what we need to see next for climate action. But first, Tina, I want our listeners to get to know you a little better. Can you share with us how your experience growing up in Kowazilin and Mezaru, Atulus and Marshall Islands has shaped your journey in being at the forefront of elevating Pacific leadership for climate justice?
Tina Eonemto Stege (01:46)
Yeah, thanks so much. Again, thank you for having me. As you said, I grew up in the Marshall Islands. My family is still there, my parents. But I've always been moving also in the world outside the Marshall Islands. I'm of mixed heritage. My mother is Marshallese. My father was a Peace Corps volunteer who came to the Marshall Islands from the United States. And I think that's really informed who I am today, that mixed heritage.
Also because in the Marshall Islands, have these mixes and sometimes, the dichotomy is quite present, right? So you mentioned I grew up in Kwajalein. Kwajalein is actually where the US has a military base. I was only there for about two years when I was very young until I was about five years old. And then my family moved to Maduro, which is the capital and an entirely different world from...
the US military base, very much a Marshallese world and living in Maduro surrounded by a huge family. My mother is one of eight children and we're very close. Many of my cousins, of which there are more than 50 first ones, lived either next door or in our own house in order to go to school. Their parents would send them to live with us. So it was very much a
you know, an island family centered, clan centered experience growing up. And I think understanding how different those realities were from where I'd been in the military base for even that short amount of time, but which was very structured and set and kind of like a suburban America really. And then going to metro where was very much Marshallese and island and
the rhythm of life was really set by family dynamics, the land, the ocean. Those differences, I think, have always been something that I look to understand within myself, but also to understand outside of myself and carry with me as I then left Island for different parts of my education. I, you know.
went to Hawaii for high school. My parents sent me off and I lived with foster family for three years. And then I moved on to do my university first in the United States and then I did some graduate studies in France and always kind of trying to really broaden and understand again further these differences and dichotomies between the different worlds that I've occupied. So it's a very rich background, very rich childhood.
so grateful for it. Now I'm based in New York and have been for quite some time working, doing work for the Marshall Islands and try to get home as much as possible.
Shady Khalil (04:48)
Thank you so much, Tina, for sharing this part of you and the experiences and how it impacts you right now. This is very important and we are trying as much as possible in this podcast really to explore our experiences and where we come from, as actually shaping the activists and the negotiators and the people who are on the table and actually building for the future that we want to see within the climate talks and beyond.
And let me take you to ⁓ the recent memory of the UN climate talks hosted in Brazil this year. And it has set high expectations to be a cop that would be a turning point when it comes to the fossil fuels and the fair debt-free finance desperately needed for the just transition. It did deliver some of breakthroughs, particularly on the Belém action mechanism on just transition, but fell painfully short on the phase out and the finance.
which will be felt the hardest by the world's most vulnerable communities. just one, I was curious and I'm curious for you to share with our listeners, what was your initial reactions once the gavel came down? Now a few weeks later, what's sitting with you most strongly? Is it, for example, frustration, determination, or is it something in between?
Tina Eonemto Stege (06:07)
I think it's in between. Listen, this year leading up to Belém was a very, very difficult year. mean, and it's not that we haven't had challenges before. We've had challenges for decades in advancing the actual needs and the actual response to those needs that's required. And you understand that
international negotiations are an incremental process and inherently frustrating for, I think, those of us who participate in that process, knowing what we do on the ground, where we come from, and how much of an emergency and a crisis, and how much that crisis is escalating with every year. And so I think for me personally, but also for those from the Pacific, you know,
We've gone into these processes determined to influence as much as we can possibly through every means that we have. And for much of that, the rallying cry has been the 1.5 to stay alive cry that, you know, really came out of the Pacific and the islands. And I say it's been a tough year. I think a lot of that has been related to the fact that for we're hearing that it's
that limit has been breached, that the limit itself is dead, and that we need to focus on a new way of work. And for me personally, but I think also very strongly from the Pacific, we said that we've refused to retreat from 1.5. And our work was always to ensure that it would stay alive in the conversation and that
when we talk about it that would be specific about that, yes, there is an overshoot, but we need to work even harder to limit that overshoot and that that work requires financing, that it requires a collective effort and that no country can go it alone, that that would not work. And we've seen that the forces arrayed against that type of message have been quite strong. I mean, we've had
a very high point this year with the advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice, which really affirmed legally so many of the arguments we've been making for so long, identifying the 1.5 as the limit for safety and security, identifying that there needs to be a collective effort to keep it in reach, that that effort needs to be based on the best available science.
needs to reflect delivery of promises made through different agreements, including the Paris Agreement and meeting of obligations. But we also had very low points. saw that the plastics treaty negotiations broke down. And that's, again, directly related to the business models for fossil fuel companies and others who depend on that industry. And we also saw
just outrageous tactics in the IMO, International Maritime Organization negotiations, where we were set to adopt a zero carbon framework. And again, that was stymied and delayed. so coming off of those and going into Belém, I guess I was just so concerned that somehow we would once again fail to advance and
keep the momentum for what was agreed in Dubai for the transition away from fossil fuels and keep that alive because it seemed we were seeing that it had been very successfully blocked and an opposing narrative just kept coming through. 1.5 is impossible to attain. We need to drill, baby, drill. These were sort of, seemed to me, almost ascendant and
I felt that COP30 was an inflection point for the pushback to show that there was still a coalition of countries out there alongside civil society leaders, alongside businesses, alongside an all-in type of approach for keeping it on the table. I guess going now to the actual outcomes. As you mentioned, it was mixed, but I think the momentum was undeniable.
And that's actually what I got from this cop. The voices for advancing and this transition away, those came through clearly. All the details on how, those are still, those terrible details that we have every year trouble to nail on the specifics, as you said, it's not all there. But the fact that there are still many countries and others who are willing and want to
take this forward. I think that came through and it was undeniable.
Shady Khalil (11:29)
During the second week of the negotiations, countries came together to issue a call for a fossil fuel roadmap in a major press conference with ministers crowding the stage and you chaired this press conference. Can you just tell our listeners more about this moment? Because as you have said, there is a lot of determination in the work that you are leading, in the work that the movement is leading. So we are going in those international conferences fighting. And this determination and the ambition ⁓ that you and many
of the movement and countries or championing and leading is quite key. And this moment of this press conference where you were chairing, I think it was a high moment and it felt us all with this determination energy and we were seeing this fight peaking.
Tina Eonemto Stege (12:13)
So it was a press conference that was organized in, I think, in a matter of hours in that morning. And this happens at COP. You sort of look at what's going on and where the text is and if there needs to be an inflection point, if there needs to be a moment that shines a light on some piece that you want to make sure doesn't get lost and doesn't get dropped. And I had participated
All throughout the year, actually, with lots of different groups saying, we agreed that transitional way. There's that line of texts we had from Dubai, but we haven't. We have no plan. How is it going to be done? There needs to be a global conversation on what are the details of that transition for every country so that it's inclusive, so that it's fair, so no one's left behind. These need to be part of the conversation. And in the negotiations, it was going nowhere. We could get nowhere. We just kept getting blocked. And so over the course of this year, we
We heard from the Brazilians that Rina Silva had said basically the same thing early on in there. We need a roadmap for the transition away from fossil fuels. And as RMI, we took that up. And at every meeting we went to, we sort of endorsed that call and said, yes, we do need to do that. And we talked to all the different groups that align around advancement. This was supposed to be an implementation COP. It's all about actually doing
the work on the ground of what has been agreed in these negotiations. And so we agreed to transition away and providing a roadmap for that seemed to slot right in, right? That let's have a plan. But it was by no means a sure thing. There were a lot of forces arrayed, even within my understanding, even within the Brazilian government, there was an agreement. There was a very strong push from Rina Silva, who's the environment minister, but it's a very complex society with lots of different...
actors. so it wasn't a sure thing. So that press conference was to ensure that it didn't get lost. We had about 20 or so countries on the stage, but we had many more, I think, who were in support. I think it did show that there's this coalition of the willing and we did what we called it was a Mutirão approach using the word that
that the Brazilians had talked about all year of a collective effort. It's countries coming together in a coalition of the willing. And it was a great moment. We got a ton of press and a lot of support. But I think the moment delivered what it had to, which is that this is not something that could be ignored. It had to be addressed. And even though we didn't get the roadmaps in the final text, we did get commitments ⁓ from the
president that they would take the work forward outside of the process. We also know that Colombia will be hosting and the Netherlands has come together with Colombia, yeah, to co-host a meeting in Colombia next April. I think the Pacific is already talking about having a meeting in advance of that to prepare. So there's a whole, I think, process now and momentum.
Yeah, this momentum, which is what I'm saying from beginning. I am so worried that somehow this cop would say, it's dead. We're not going to do this work on transitioning away because of all the difficulties. And the difficulties are that the lack of finance or whatever would be used as the excuse. But no, there's no excuse now, right? That's what I wanted to see out of this cop is that we would say there's enough countries to say there's no excuse. This work has to happen. We're going to take it forward.
And as we take it forward, we know that we have the Pacific hosting the pre-cop next year. And Australia, which is a major producer, is president of the negotiations and also in our region and was one of the countries in the end that also signed up to say we need a roadmap alongside Colombia and others when there was a second press conference later in the week.
These are hooks. are what we need. We need to say, okay, you made a commitment. Now what does that mean? And deliver.
Shady Khalil (16:35)
I want to maybe expand a bit on this point to our listeners. So now, while we look for what comes next, Australia was bidding to host COP31, the climate talks for next year. And positioning specifically next year UN climate talks as an Australia Pacific collaboration. And one big major twist that happened at this COP30 in Brazil that we saw Australia stepping back from its bed while not
hosting COP31 and right now going to be sort of like pre-COP is going to be host in Pacific and then that the presidency of the next COP is going to be for Türkiye while the lead of negotiations is going to be for Australia. So I think it's quite complicated and I really like, I really don't want our listeners to get lost on all of those details because for me I get lost on all of these details. But like one key question here, how does this shift?
the strategy for Pacific diplomacy leading into COP31 and what needs to happen to ensure Pacific priorities does not get sidelined regardless of where COP31 is ultimately being held.
Tina Eonemto Stege (17:40)
Yeah, you're right. It's beyond complicated. I think we're going to be spending all of next year talking about what it actually means because it's unprecedented and yeah, it'll be an ongoing conversation. But for myself, for the Marshall Islands, I mean, we're very focused on the fact that the pre-cop will come to the Pacific and that it's a moment on the road to Türkiye.
And what gets discussed at a COP is often the result of the conversations that happen all throughout the year, right? And so that's why I think it's so important and the Pacific will be front and center in those conversations throughout the year to define so many of the things that came out of BLM and say what we think, what our expectations are for those outcomes. So the mission to 1.5, the global accelerator,
All of these outcomes that were decided on NDCs, on NAPs, the fact that the COP president said they'll take forward the work on the roadmaps for the transition around fossil fuels, but also on deforestation, by the way, ensuring that those are in fact, it's important to have national plans, but there needs to be a global conversation. And particularly for the Pacific, there needs to be a regional conversation, right? That that would include Australia, that would include all of the small islands.
that would tie to many of the outcomes that we've had and calls we've made in our region for transitioning to, for example, 100 % renewables across all the countries of the Pacific, finding finance for our Pacific resilience facility and for the different efforts that we have on the ground in each of our countries. And for the Marshalls, as an atoll nation, adaptation is front and center to long-term planning.
and further understanding how the decision this year on tripling of adaptation finance ties into those conversations. I think for the Pacific, it means we'll take what we did get, which is the Pacific pre-cop, and use it as a highlight of next year to really define expectations for what the outcomes would be in Türkiye.
Shady Khalil (20:05)
Again, this process became really complicated, but I'm quite sure, as we always say, that the Pacific are the ⁓ architect of climate ambition. So understanding even getting the pre-cop, we understand that this is still going to be a highlight. And I think the entire movement is prepared to stand and support the Pacific in terms of how we want to lead the pre-cop and how can we take this forward and make this a highlight. ⁓
very keen and excited to get your guidance as we move forward. But there is one key thing that you have mentioned also when it comes to the finance. And this is something that we, in this podcast and I think also on ground, it's quite key. While, as you have said, in COP30 in Brazil, we saw many countries stood on stage calling for fossil fuel phase out roadmap. And it's clear that ambition on just transition.
without putting real finance on the table and addressing systematic barriers that the global south countries are facing, it's going to be at a certain point only unattainable. It's going to be very, very hard to achieve. And you're going to see a lot of resistance, like we have seen specifically from some countries from the global south saying that they still face strong systematic barriers when it comes to transitioning away from fossil fuel, that the lack of public finance for the energy transition.
is really affecting them and is actually trapping countries in the debt cycles and fossil fuel dependency and the vicious cycle that we are seeing. And it was expressed clearly within the negotiations and also within different political interventions by leaders from the global south. There is also broader barriers such as trade regimes, tax rules, access to technology. So the entire energy transition, as you have mentioned, is quite of complex.
and require a lot of enabling conditions in order for countries to be able to come to a multilateral process and then commit to this. But as a representative of a country pushing hard for just an equitable phase out of fossil fuel, how do you engage with the need to lift these barriers before we can make progress on fossil fuels? And I know that there is a tension here, and it's not sort of like a one narrative, it's not a simple answer.
Tina Eonemto Stege (22:20)
Well, I guess I go back to two things. One is that the conversation has to be tied to what is our objective. And, you know, for the Pacific, again, the objective has been that 1.5 is a limit for our safety and security, right? So any action that we do is tied to that principle. And so, for example, if we're talking about a roadmap, that's a key principle for our Marshall Islands, that that is
a key objective of having that roadmap. And that's a starting point. I think the other starting point is that it is an absolutely inclusive conversation. And that you start by recognizing, I guess as a third, you actually start the conversation by identifying the barriers. And in that conversation of identifying barriers, you have, it's absolutely inclusive. And you have at the table, not just the countries, but the civil society.
the experts who have spent years thinking about and looking at this issue. And we unfortunately have not been able to have that kind of a conversation in the negotiations process, in different ways that it's been blocked, and specifically around energy transition, right? Even in the final text of the dress transition new mechanism, there's no mention of fossil fuels.
Yeah. And that's a huge gap because if we don't have the conversation, countries like mine in the marshals at the end of terribly long supply chains who are hit the hardest when there's any disruption to even countries that may be, you know, getting into a producer economy now, but could eventually be left with many stranded assets.
as the world transitions and other countries that have more resources take advantage of that transition, leaving behind those who made many promises on income from producing fossil fuel. Or let's even look at a very on the ground example with recently, think Korea said they're going to phase out of coal. I mean, there are countries that, you know, if they're banking on coal as a way to fund long-term development.
they will lose out and it's across the board, right? So again, it has to be something that there's thought put into planning to discussing and starting with the barriers and starting with the most vulnerable and who will be hurt the most. Those are the starting points, I think, for the Marshall Islands.
Shady Khalil (25:00)
Thank much.
This is very, very important. And I think what you are saying here is key. That we don't want to go to the COP and just get an acknowledgment on the phase out of fossil fuel, because we got the transitioning away from fossil fuel at COP 28. But I think right now we are getting really challenged on the sophistication and I think differentiation of the transition. And this require a roadmap. This require a conversation. This require more of, as you have said, the expertise around this. And I think this is
What I would say at COP 30, I have witnessed that there is confusion about what the roadmap means. we are saying here, let's get together and find a way to implement the decisions that we have made at COP 28. And this decision will require a lot of enabling condition and a lot of details that come across. And this is quite key to this piece when it comes to the transitioning away from fossil fuel. Like in Brazil, as President Lula also gives a direction.
to the ministers to plan the roadmap. Like how can countries producing be able to transition in a way that does not harm the economies, that does not leave workers behind, acknowledging that fossil fuel is ending, acknowledging that it's a volatile industry, acknowledging that even the global markets is going to be impacting the economies of countries that are dependent on oil and gas production. So right now it's really about how we organize.
How we make sure that this is just transition and how can countries actually engage in this exercise of understanding what does it mean for them to transition away from fossil fuel while protecting their workers and economies. And this is one of the key things that we are calling for right now in order to make sure that this transition is managed and protecting the most vulnerable. So Pacific countries have been, as I've said, the architects of global climate ambition.
from putting the 1.5C limit in the text of the Paris Agreement and then also continuing to protect it, as you have mentioned at the start of our conversation, and creating the high ambition coalition for pushing for loss and damage finance, for example. So from your vantage point, how did the Pacific also influence the shift in decision making at COP30? And I've been witnessing how the Pacific is actually leading proposals within COP30, how you have been trying really to unify positions and bring
North and South together. So if you can tell us like how did you influence the decisions coming at COP30 in that sense?
Tina Eonemto Stege (27:37)
I mean, it's always very hard, but I do come from a country and a culture where we spend a lot of time consulting each other. Maybe this is just things that happen in small communities, but there's a lot of time spent, we call it boibanao, talking story, telling each other stories, hearing each other's stories, listening. I think that's the word is listening. Listening to each other before we make decisions is something that is valued.
And I think in all the work that we do as RMI is listening and trying to understand where others are coming from and how it's, and trying to understand even where they're coming from is different from where we're coming from. And making sure always that most important to me is that our voice is there because that's, ⁓ you know, the space is there where we can have real conversations, where we're really explaining.
what is not just important to us, but how we're listening to what the other is saying to try to understand what is important to them. It doesn't mean that in the end we absolutely align or think that they're right, but it does mean that somehow maybe I have some perspective that I wouldn't have had before. In this case and for this COP30, I think the issues around ⁓ adaptation finance were really one of those key pieces where the
the conversations were the most difficult and all throughout the year. ⁓ And we were told over and over again, their finance decisions were discussed at COP29 in Baku. We have the new collective quantified goal. Those issues are closed. But the fact is that doesn't recognize the realities on the ground. And also doesn't recognize that the decision in Baku didn't come close to meeting those realities, to responding to those realities.
And specifically, there was a huge gap on adaptation finance. Even though that $300 billion goal was agreed and that goal is far below what's needed, there wasn't a big push from the Pacific and from islands had been for a sub-goal on adaptation finance because that is the piece of the climate finance that requires the most funding and particularly the most public finance.
and the idea that private sector is going to somehow come in and provide investment. It doesn't work in my country. It doesn't work in most countries, but it certainly doesn't work in a small atoll nation like mine. There's no private finance for adaptation. So my minister is actually the adaptation champion coming from the Pacific. And we convened ministers.
through the High Ambition Coalition and had other island countries and LDCs and other developing countries in that space to speak directly to what adaptation finance means for them and what the conditions are in their countries. We were in meetings, the bilaterals that our chair, Palau, convened as chair of EOSIS, the island countries meeting with the
the cop president and others and raising this consistently that there had to be a political outcome on finance for adaptation at this cop. But it really wasn't until very late in the game that it came together. It was very hard fought. I really want to recognize the LDC group, the Least Developed Countries, for putting it forward and making it part of the discussion halfway through the year. But we worked as nonstop.
to ensure that it was there. It's there. It's not necessarily what we first wanted. It represents a compromise. Originally, I think we had said it would be to triple adaptation finance by 2030. Instead, it's 2035. But it's there. There's finally recognition that adaptation finance needs just as much weight as the decisions around ensuring that we have, you know,
response to NDCs and we have the strong ambition. These are not trade-offs. I think that was the big conversation point for us. We can't trade these off. It doesn't work. It doesn't work for the Marshall Islands. It doesn't work for the vast majority of countries who are fighting floods and fighting famines and fighting sea level rise and have absolutely no predictable finance with which to do that. And you know, therefore,
can't feed their people or can't educate their people or can't provide health care because budgets are going to attempt to rebuild infrastructure, save lives. So I would say that was an area that I'm very proud that we stuck to our guns and said this isn't a trade-off. This can't be a trade-off for the Marshall Islands.
Shady Khalil (32:50)
And this is actually key because we see those dynamics of how adaptation is being traded off against mitigation and specifically by rich global north countries in this case. So it's quite key what you are saying. This is not helping. Those dynamics we cannot continue feeding on those dynamics. need both. We need climate justice. We cannot just pick one component of climate justice. It comes as a package. And this is quite key looking for the next COPs and also the future of this process, multilateral process.
You know, before we wrap up, I want to give you the final word. So after everything that you saw in Balam, what gives you hope right now? What keeps you fighting? Because you said like this process, this cop process and this multilateral process is quite something. So what keeps you going?
Tina Eonemto Stege (33:37)
I mean, I keep going because first of all, there's no alternative to that. There's not an alternative. You have to have hope. You have to believe that, you know, your voice makes a difference. And I fully believe. I believe that my voice makes a difference. I believe that your voice makes a difference. I believe that every voice, every individual voice makes a difference, can make a difference. I also believe that working together with others to grow voices, to grow calls, ⁓ that makes a difference.
And, you know, when we are blocked in these negotiations, in this process, I look for creative ways to get around those blocks. And I think that the outcome we had on, for example, on the roadmap and how that's going to move forward, at least for a while outside of the process, but hopefully we'll bring it back in, that gives me hope because I know I can work with that. I can continue to push.
And I think that also gives me hope. think there's just hope in action. As much as there's challenges and you see blocks and you see pushback and you even experience rollback, you can't stop the work. You can't stop acting. You have to continue acting because you never know. All of the sudden, there can be a moment where all of the action, all of the block, not that it disappears, but something opens. I feel that that happened.
in Dubai when we had that line of text after 30 years, 30 years. You know, however many years, for the first time there was, there it was. And it was hard fought and we were told it would never happen. But again, we just keep acting. You keep pushing. You don't give up.
Shady Khalil (35:10)
haha
I mean, definitely this conversation has opened my mind and my heart, to be honest. And like you've said so many things that are quite key for me. So the creativity and believing even after 30 years, the outcome will be shaped in that sense. And this entire notion of
empathy and the work that you are leading, the diplomatic work that you are leading. So diplomacy has been ⁓ done in a very specific way, but I feel that the work that you are leading in the Pacific is leading, is bringing really north and south and with sort of creativity, as you have mentioned, empathy and understanding, and it's quite hard at this state of the world that we are operating in. So I'm very grateful to the work that you are leading and to, again, being the ambition architect.
And we are excited to be supporting you in the pre-cop and the coming battles and fights for the determinations that you have been leading. Again, it's been an honor having you with us on this episode of Burned: the Price of Oil.
Tina Eonemto Stege (36:28)
Thanks, Shady. Thanks. It was so great to be here with you.
Shady Khalil (36:31)
Thank you so much, Tina. was lovely, lovely, lovely. And it really opened my mind and heart. So thank you so much for your time.
Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of Burned: The Price of Oil. Subscribe and stay tuned for the next episode for more conversations uncovering the hidden cost of fossil fuels and imagining the just energy future that we want. Don't forget to rate us and review us on whatever app you get your podcast on. more information you can always check our website at oilchange.org and follow us on social media @Priceofoil.
Thanks a lot for listening.