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What if the biggest threat to your leadership isn’t burnout, bad strategy, or lack of vision — but neglecting your own body?
In this episode, Jedd Medefind, President of the Christian Alliance for Orphans (CAFO), opens up a conversation many leaders avoid: the role of physical health in shaping how we lead. From sleep and diet to movement and screen time, Jedd shares how small choices in our daily lives fuel resilience, creativity, and longevity in leadership.
This isn’t about prescriptions or checklists—it’s about learning to lead from a place of wholeness. Whether you’re a pastor, CEO, or ministry leader, this conversation will challenge how you think about leadership health and give you practical ways to build strength for the long haul.
In This Episode:
- Why leaders often ignore physical health
- How sleep, diet, and movement impact leadership
- The hidden cost of our relationship with screens
- What thriving leadership looks like over the long term
- How boards and organizations can better support leader well-being
About Jedd Medefind:
Jedd Medefind serves as President of the Christian Alliance for Orphans (CAFO), which unites 300 respected organizations in joint initiatives to better the lives of vulnerable children and families. Previously, Jedd led the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives under President George W. Bush. He also held a range of posts in the California State Legislature. Jedd has worked, studied, and served in more than thirty countries, from Christian Life Bangladesh to Price-Waterhouse in Moscow. He’s authored four books and many articles, and speaks frequently on issues related to effective leadership, child development and health, technology, and more – from large events to media outlets ranging from the Wall Street Journal and NPR to Christianity Today. Jedd and his wife Rachel live in Falls Church, VA with their five children. He loves time with his family and friends, especially flyfishing, backpacking, or anything else in the great outdoors.
Additional Resources:
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Creators and Guests
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
BTS S3 Jedd Medefind Full Mix
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[00:00:00] Jedd Medefind: We often underappreciate the way that our physical health and our physical bodies affect all the rest of us. If a tree is healthy, then the fruit is gonna be great, but we are creatures who are dependent on him day after day, hour after hour, coming to him and receiving his care for us and every sphere, including our physical bodies.
Man, if we are doing that, the fruit is gonna be marvelous.
[00:00:27] Ryan Gordon: What if the most overlooked part of leadership isn't your strategy or vision, but your body? In today's episode, Jedd Medefind, president of the Christian Alliance for Orphans opens up a conversation that leaders rarely have the connection between our physical health and our ability to lead well. One moment that stood out to me was Jedd reminder that our relationship with our screen will profoundly impact our anxiety, our calm, and our ability to be physically present with our spouses families, and the Lord that one's worth sitting with.
This discussion reframes health, not as a prescription, but as an invitation to lead from a place of wholeness. Let's dive in.
[00:01:11] Michael Martin: Well, Jedd, it's always good to be with you, brother. Welcome to the ECFA podcast. Hello, Michael. Great to be with you again. Yeah, so, hey, we are having you on today to talk about within the subject of Leader care, we're talking about physical health.
And I had a funny memory that just came across my mind right before we hit record. I wonder if you know what it is.
[00:01:32] Jedd Medefind: I don't. Go.
[00:01:33] Michael Martin: Okay. I'm thinking about all the meals that we've shared together, and I had this vision of, uh, a memory of one of the large donuts, like at a dessert, as a dessert that came across our table one time.
And I just thought, uh, you know, how funny is that? Thinking about some of the, the good meals that we've shared together, and as we talk about physical health. The image of a donut popped into my mind .
[00:01:55] Jedd Medefind: That is really a great entree into physical health, and it clearly shows we are not legalists when it comes to physical health.
Right. Jump in with a donut.
[00:02:04] Michael Martin: Okay. Well, this is good. No. Um, as ECFA, you know, we've been talking a lot about, uh, the topic of leader care. You and I have been talking a lot about leader care, um, over donuts, over other good meals. Right. Uh, but, uh, I know one of the areas that is a real. Passion point for you is this topic of physical health and how a lot of times in the conversation around leader care, um, we think about things like spiritual health, we think of emotional health, um, you know, different other areas, right?
And kind of the whole person. But, uh, it does seem like an often overlooked area is this whole idea of the physical health and how that contributes. Mm-hmm. To the wellbeing of the leader. So maybe just kind of starting with, why do you think that's the case? Why does that tend to be overlooked?
[00:02:50] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. Well, first of all, I totally agree with you.
It's just something we rarely, rarely speak about, whether, uh, you know, within church or or within organizations and, you know, with [00:03:00] our teams that we, we care for, we love them and we want to care for them well, but often we don't touch the AR area of physical health. And I think there's multiple reasons for that.
I think one is that it just does feel very, very personal and, um, you know, might even feel inappropriate to speak into that space of someone's life in any way. Um, certainly no one wants to, uh, feel like they're, they're. Policing or prying or any of those things. So I think that's part of it. And I think another part though is that we, we often underappreciate the way that our physical health and our physical bodies affect all the rest of us.
You know, the, the, it, it, it does have these. Amazing intertwining these, this interplay between physical things we do and our physical wellbeing and our emotional health, our intellectual health, our relational health, our connection to others and our spiritual health. These things are God designed to be intertwined and interconnected, but often we think of physical as kind of just this side thing.
It's off to the side and so don't, don't recognize how these things really impact one another.
[00:04:06] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, as you say, God's design, uh, I wonder if you could, 'cause I know you've given a lot of thought to these things even, uh, in your organization, the Christian Alliance for Orphans. You know, you've shared with me some different practices and policies, things that you all are encouraging, but I know you thought deeply about this.
And so thinking about God's design, uh, talk about some of the, even the theology of how. We should be thinking about the physical health.
[00:04:30] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. Well this Michael gets to a third ex reason why probably we, um. Downplay or even ignore the physical realm in our physical health is that I, I think there's a strain of thought that's coming to us, even if we're not aware of it from Greek platonic thought and, and the, you know, idea, which sometimes takes the form of what's called gnosticism and, you know, gnosticism and Greek thought, and even at times in early Christianity was the, at its core was this idea that the I realm of ideas and spirit and mind.
Is a very high, lofty and important thing. And the realm of the physical body and physical things is a low demeaning, um, and, and perhaps even meaningless space. And those things are completely disconnected from each other. And, uh, that idea could not be further from good, solid biblical theology, right, because you go back.
To the very first, uh, chapter of scripture and God is creating the world. He's creating. Yes, certainly he's creating humanity to have a spirit like him. And yet we also were created with physical bodies. And then God looks at all of that, all these amazing physical things. He has made everything from the stars to ants and aardvarks, and of course the human body.
And he looks at it and he says It is very. Good. And so there's [00:06:00] this fundamental affirmation of the physical realm. And so, although, you know, Christian theology also teaches that everything in creation has been twisted by evil and by sin there, there is this profound. Deep create creation level goodness to the physical realm.
And then we also see that God's intent for restoration includes all of that as well, right? That, that when Jesus walks the earth, he's continually healing. And not just spirits and relationships, but also physical bodies, blindness, leprosy, lameness, all of these things, right? So he cares clearly, deeply for our physical bodies.
And, and then what we also note is that the resurrection. In, in scripture is clearly portrayed and presented to us as including a physical element. You see this even in the Book of Job, which many believers, it may have been the first book of the Old Testament written and job expresses that, you know, even after his.
Skin has been destroyed. Yet with my flesh and with my eyes, I will see God. And so of course, I'm sure Job may have seen these things in very shadowy form, but he had some sense that there would be a physical resurrection. And of course, in Jesus Christ we, we see that the first roots He, he is. A physical being.
And of course there are properties to him that we can't completely understand, but he asks to eat fish, right? He, in multiple occasions, he eats food with the disciples. And so again, in all of that many other places in scripture as well, we see this clear affirmation that God's creation of the physical body is good.
It is very good. And that although it has been twisted and bent by sin, God includes the physical being in his restoration of all things.
[00:07:50] Michael Martin: Yeah. I appreciate you bringing that out. You know, as you were sharing, I was thinking about how, uh, it does get twisted, right? Because I think in the world's eyes, like sometimes physical health can be like an obsession or an extreme mm-hmm.
Of like, that is all that you know, is focused upon. But then yet sometimes, yeah, in a faith tradition, we may think like, oh, well we've gotta take. The opposite extreme, and, you know, totally abandoned those things. So I think that's, that's a very helpful way to think about it from, uh, a biblical perspective.
Um, I should also say too, as we kinda launch into this conversation, I know you and I both, uh, it, it is a topic that is personal and none of the things that we share intended in any way to, um. For people to feel guilt as they're hearing these things. Right. Um, and, and we would say that too about any leader care topic, uh, but in the spirit of what is it that God's word has for us in terms of truth and life and encouragement, um, that is our hope.
Uh, one, one other thought too, just as we're kind of launching into is because the area of physical health tends to be one that, um, is overlooked. What do you think the impact of that is for leaders over time? [00:09:00] Yeah.
[00:09:00] Jedd Medefind: Yeah.
[00:09:01] Michael Martin: Well, and I sort of the cumulative Yeah.
[00:09:02] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. For first underscoring what you said right there, there is, there is no, uh, place for legalism in any space of the Christian life.
Certainly not in terms of physical health. There's no place for judgment one of another, right? Th that we are thankfully, thank the Lord, we're undergirded by grace and his goodness. Um, and that spirit of one to another, just, it should be one, always right of encouragement and of knowing that our good, good father.
Our maker desires to draw us into a wholeness and health in every sphere of life, right? And we're on that journey together and we're encouraging each other and we'll never get it perfectly this side of heaven. Uh, and yet at the same time, we, we can grow and encourage each other. And, um, and I think this is one of those spheres where we can, we can learn and grow together into greater health.
In the physical sphere and in ways that affects the whole of us, including the fruitfulness and effectiveness of our ministry, our relationships with others, just how the joy and, and gladness of our hearts. Um, and so certainly it's a very apropo topic.
[00:10:06] Michael Martin: Yeah. Amen. Um, so yeah, I guess coming back to that, that thought of, you know, what do you think is the long-term impact when, uh, the area of physical health, like when it is overlooked, uh, what do you think the impact that is for leaders?
[00:10:21] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. Well, I, I imagine Michael, we've all experienced and taste of that firsthand. We could just draw on our well of experiences of times when we, you know, for me, I, me speaking for myself right times when I have neglected. The core ingredients that God has given us for good health. Um, sometimes just outta laziness, but, uh, you know, sometimes out of very good reasons, right?
I'm just pouring into ministry. I'm in a season, um, where I'm working really hard. I feel like things are really important. There's pressing needs. Maybe I'm traveling a lot or speaking a lot, and I don't have basic habits of health and rhythms. Of, of receiving life from God, um, that then wear me down physically.
Right. And, you know, pro of course probably the first category would be sleep. And you're not getting enough sleep. And then maybe you're not eating particularly healthy food. Maybe you're getting, you know, fast food or traveling, not eating well, not exercising, not physically active, just sitting at a desk for endless hours.
And we, we all know what the cumulative effect of that feels like is that we have left. Less to offer to the world, right? We feel weary, we feel irritable, we feel less creative, we're less resilient. Um, we become more self-protective. And I, and I think inwardly focused, kind of saying to the world. You know, Hey, don't, don't bother me.
Um, and, and perhaps many other, you know, words we could use to describe that reality. But, um, but I would say, you know, I've certainly tasted that I imagine most of us have, and there's, there's a short term and a long term. The short term is kind of what I just described, those more immediate [00:12:00] sensations of.
Uh, not being completely, well, not completely having the energy or creativity, you know, in the long run, of course, it begins to grind in a deeper way, that that then becomes longer term patterns that affects every sphere of life, affects the way in which we lead. It infects our, our relationships with others and, and many other spheres as well.
[00:12:25] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, as I hear you say that, uh, definitely can relate. So I'm asking for a friend on this question. No, this is me too. Um, just the idea of balance, right? Because there is so much that leaders are balancing, you know, the responsibilities of. Of leadership and family and all the different involvements.
And I do think like physical health can, can take a bit of a backseat at times. Uh, it's something we feel like, hey, we can just address that later when things calm down or whatever it may be. So what advice do you have in terms of helping leaders, uh, strike that balance, maybe even from some of your own personal experience, if you don't mind sharing.
[00:13:01] Jedd Medefind: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, um. As you alluded to earlier, I certainly, we can swing into various extremes, right? And there, there is a subgroup of our culture today that is obsessed with physical health, right? And is whether there's, you know, always in the gym spending hours and hours a day, day, you know, working out or.
Various things or focused, completely obsessed with the food they eat and making sure that it's, you know, completely, uh, free of this and free of that and this diet and this fad. And, and I don't think that God wants that for us, right? That, um, that our, our life is much more than food, as Jesus said, and, and much more than our body.
And that that. That at the very core of things is our relationship with the Lord and our relationship with others, and then our fruitfulness and ability to serve and bring good in our world. Those things are most important and um, and so we don't wanna let an obsession with physical things, whether that's exercise or diet or other things.
Um, keep us from those, those highest goods. And at the same time, like we've been talking about earlier, also sometimes when we are seeking spiritual things, we may imagine that that means just neglecting the physical realm. And that comes with tragic results, right? It robs us of feelings of health and joy that God intends for his people.
Um, and then, then in the long run, it actually robs the ministry of the, the fruitfulness that comes as we are in a reasonable state of health. And so to, to me. You know, holding you, you, you could say balance. That's, that's one way to put it. I think, you know, balance, avoiding those two extremes. But another way to put it would also be saying, um, we, we know that God calls us to lives of pouring out.
So we're very committed to serving and to being. Oriented towards much more than just our own wellbeing, right? We're we're gripping that our life is not our own. We are living for something larger and higher than [00:15:00] ourselves, and at the same time, our good and loving father desires to care for the whole of us, including our physical body, and that he invites us into habits and rhythms of health that align with his design for us, so that we can both enjoy.
Uh, the, the blessing of health and serve more effectively in the long run. So that's, those things seem like opposite, right? An outwardly focused pouring out life and an awareness that God wants to care for our physical body. But if we hold them together, then I think we can live in that place where we are really keeping, keeping the, the first things first.
[00:15:41] Michael Martin: Yeah. I love that way of, uh, thinking about it. And then also in terms of, I don't know, maybe even just practical strategies if you will. Um, what are some things that you've seen to be successful for leaders?
[00:15:53] Jedd Medefind: Mm-hmm. Well, you know, let's talk first about what are the key elements of health. You know, and if you, you know, if you look at this, we, we probably just know this intuitively, but also there's just a lot of scientific literature that would really point to sleep as the first.
Ingredient, uh, to wellbeing. That if, if you're cutting that off and if you're not getting adequate sleep, you're gonna see the, the, a quick or fairly swift spiral down rule, or, you know, some of it immediate effects on your, everything from your feelings of wellbeing. You know, the world looks gray, you feel more irritable, you're less creative, your memory works less well.
Your immune system is less able to resist disease. You're gonna get sick more often, like. There's, you know, uh, and so I would really put that first in terms of the sphere of the physical health and wellbeing. Um, and, and again, to reiterate, we're not just talking here about self-care. That's not a terrible concept, but what we really are talking about here is God's care for us and his design for us as his creatures, as finite beings that share his image.
So we are, we have spirit and we are capable of. Immense good and, and all kinds of things, but he also made us wonderfully finite, which is not a bad thing. It means that we are creatures who are dependent on him and that we need to come to him not just once in a lifetime, but, but day after day, hour after hour, coming to him and receiving his care for us in every sphere, including our physical bodies, right?
So. That, that awareness of our finiteness, our dependence on God, his designed for us, all of these things then lead us into habits or practices of health, of physical health. Right. And the first I would point to is sleep. And, you know, um, most of the good research say that, that an adult needs. You know, at least seven, but ideally around eight hours, uh, a night.
And for, for young people, um, that's actually [00:18:00] significantly higher for teenagers. It it's closer to nine to 10 hours. And that if, if we're getting less than that, we are, we are not receiving. In my view, we're not receiving the fullness of the care that God intends for us. Like it, it says in the Psalms, he grants sleep to his beloved.
That's one of his good gifts to us. And so, um, I think as we look at our holistic schedule, you know, the day schedule, the weeks schedule, and then long term are patterns of life. I think we, we can conclude, hey, God intends to care for us by granting us sleep probably somewhere around eight hours a night for most adults.
And if we're in the short run, you know, there's certainly times where we'll go without that for the short run. But if we find ourselves in a rhythm where in the long run we're consistently not getting that, then and we, and we feel as often we do. I just don't have time. I can't possibly do everything God wants me to do and get enough sleep.
The reality is we're probably doing things that God does not intend for us to do, and so it requires a pruning, it requires a reorientation of life pruning down so that we can put that first ingredient of good health. A decent night's sleep, uh, in first, and then we can build, we can talk about some of the other, uh, ingredients, but I think that's, that's would be the first,
[00:19:25] Michael Martin: well, we could, we could probably end it right there and that would give us all enough to work on.
You know what I'm saying? Yes, yes. Uh, no. Those are. Great thoughts around the topic of just making sure that we're resting well, getting proper sleep. Um, yeah. Go ahead and launch into what are some of the other ingredients that come to mind.
[00:19:42] Jedd Medefind: Yes. So, you know, second category, I, I would say, does have to do with the food we put into our body.
Right. That, that, and there's a huge amount of. Wonderful research now that that looks at the way in which diet is hugely tied to all the other spheres of our wellbeing. So for instance, mental health, that if we have a diet that's very high in highly processed foods, ultra processed foods, very high in fats and sugars, that then, then actually our mental health.
Is going to be significantly impacted. We're much more vulnerable to anxiety, to depression. Um, we're much less likely to report high, uh, sense of mood and optimism and, and those elements. It also affects us in our intellectual sphere. So again, if we're eating a, a highly unhealthy diet, we are, we're going to ultimately have lower measures of creativity, of ingenuity, of, um, capacity to, you know, uh, lead well in, in other spheres as well.
And, and of course even those effects even do spill out into relational health. And uh, although there's less studies on this, I would argue probably our spiritual health as well, right? Because if these things are all interrelated, they're going to have that effect. And so, you know, when [00:21:00] it comes to that, of course we're not, you and I are not gonna, you know, dig deeply into this theme, but I think.
Just the, the basic principles, right? Where, you know, you're getting most of your food in forms that are, you know, reasonably healthy, right? So low foods that are not highly processed. Quite a bit of vegetables and fruits, kinda live foods and whole grains and, and healthy fats. Um. The, those, you know, if the bulk of our, of our diet is coming from that our primary food is there, I don't think we need to worry about occasionally, you know, having a donut here and there and those sorts of things.
Um, but, but again, this is a sphere that, you know that, so it's, we've talked about sleep first and diet would be another area where. Um, we are coming to God and receiving life from him. It's not mm-hmm, solely about self care. This is about receiving God's care, that he created all these things. He created fruits and vegetables and grains and, and he gives these to us as gifts, and he wants us to delight in them, to, to feast upon them in certain seasons, and then in other times.
Withhold perhaps in times of whether fasting or just times of, um, restraint. And yet we can, we can do all of this as a way of receiving life from God, uh, both to take joy in it, but then also so that we can pour more good out over the course of our lifetime.
[00:22:19] Michael Martin: Yeah. I love how you say that too, because as you were sharing there was thinking, um, just about the idea of.
The body being the temple, you know? And sometimes it, it does feel like when it's taught, uh, in certain contexts, like, oh, well that's like legalism or, these are the things you shouldn't do. But I love the, the framing there of what you're saying. I really do think that that's, uh, God's intention is, um. It's how he has made us fearfully and wonderfully and, uh, these are gifts that we can receive from him.
So I appreciate all that you say there. And uh, yeah. It is something where we, we should see it as the gift that God intends it to be, not legalism.
[00:22:58] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. Yeah. And of course you can be legalistic about anything, right? I mean, any good thing you be could become legalistic and miss the point. But of course, if we dig down into the spirit of things right, that our good father, our creator.
Designed us as physical beings, and he's providing with wonderful fuel and, and not just as a, you know, kind of this, uh, neutral fuel that, that PEPs us up like a battery, but it's actually gives us delight as we eat it. Right. Um, good food that brings joy to the heart and we can, we can receive those with a lot of gladness.
[00:23:31] Michael Martin: Absolutely. Well, hey, are there any other of the critical ingredients that you wanted to touch on?
[00:23:36] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. You know, um, I'll mention two others. Um, you know, uh. Physical, just physical activity. Right. And you might say exercise, but I would even say, you know, one step shy of what we would consider exercise, you know, pushing ourselves, just being physically active alone, um, tends to be actually the.
Biggest, um, metric of, [00:24:00] uh, more important than, you know, hey, are we going out and working at a gym for an hour a day? You know, is is just the simple question. Are we getting up out of our chairs on a regular basis and moving around? You know, and that is going to make a huge incremental difference. And I know for myself, you know, a lot of days.
It would be very natural for, for me to sit in my chair for eight to nine hours a day, you know, and hardly even get outta my chair. And so it, it takes, I think anyone who's kind of working in the knowledge economy needs to be intentional about that and think, Hey, how can I spend more time out of my chair moving around in different ways?
And so, um, you know, a actually as the CAFO team, we, we talk about this as a team and we do a variety of things to help us get out of the chair. So, uh, you know, we, for instance, um, encourage everyone to do phone calls, um, on our feet and even walking when we can. So, you know, we'll buy anyone that wants it on the team at kind of a, you know, like those trucker headsets that are kind of high quality headsets and.
Uh, while certainly there's some calls you obviously need to take at your desk if it's a, you know, a highly important conversation or something, or you know, where you're, you're talking with someone you don't know well, but hey, if two members of the team are talking, hey, let's both get out and walk together while we're talking about this brainstorming, whatever, whatever it is.
Um, and actually there's a lot of good research that show that when you are physically active, that you are gonna be much more generative in thinking of ideas and creating. Um, it's, it's actually a little less effective if you're trying to focus heavily and like write down a plan or strategy. So you probably don't want to, um, be doing some of that deeper work walking around.
But if you are, you're wanting to be creative either during that time or right after. I mean, it's, it's really huge difference just, just walking and um, and then, you know, so I would say doing it both. What's gonna matter at the end of the day is both the amount of time that you spend in some form of movement and then also the, um, way it breaks up your day.
So I, you know. It's not, it's, it's, instead of walking for, you know, an hour and a half, at the end of the day, it'd be better to, to do it in 10 minute increments or 15 minute increments, every hour and a half or something like that. And again, it's gonna look different for everyone. You know, again, no legalism, right?
But this idea of just getting out of the chair, being active. Maybe you do something in the morning before, and for some it will be some serious exercise that does have real benefits, but at least go for a walk. Right? And then, and that's a wonderful way to start supercharge your, your thinking, your creativity for the day.
Go into your workday, have times where you break that up, maybe on a phone call, maybe just going out by yourself for five [00:27:00] minutes. Um, and then, you know, if you're able to, at the end of the day, that's another, you know, great way with if you're married with a spouse or with a friend, go for a little walk.
And, um, wonderful blessings in that.
[00:27:10] Michael Martin: Yeah, that's a great encouragement to us all. Yeah. Get up, space it out throughout the day. Um, those are some great tips. Um, I think you had mentioned, and
[00:27:19] Jedd Medefind: Michael, I'll, I'll note just too, yeah, there, there is added benefit and this is again, based on a lot of scientific literature that being outdoors for that at carries additional benefits.
So, so there, there certainly are benefits just. You know, standing up perhaps using a standing desk. So sometimes you're sitting, sometimes you're standing. Um, I actually have a, a, like a, a walking treadmill under my desk that I can use in the winter when the. Weather's really bad outside, and, you know, so at least I'm moving my body.
But there's further benefit. If you're outdoors and you're encountering the glories of God's creation and there's wind and there's birds, and there's, um, you know, e even a little bit of weather can be good for you. It's stimulating to, to the mind and body, and so. Uh, you know, to the extent that we can, let's get outside for some of that too.
[00:28:04] Michael Martin: Yeah. Be in God's design. That's awesome. Yes,
[00:28:07] Jedd Medefind: yes.
[00:28:07] Michael Martin: Yeah. And then I think you mentioned, maybe there's one more in physical activity. One more. And this,
[00:28:12] Jedd Medefind: this, you know, in some ways is, is a little bit peripheral to the, I get physical, but it has huge bearing on the physical. And that is our relationship with technology.
You know, that, that our relationship with our screens is gonna have a lot of impact on all. Parts of ourselves, you know, what will profoundly impact the quality of our relationships with others, um, our, our spiritual life, our, uh, anxiety, our calm, um, and, and our ability to even be, uh, physically healthy.
And so that, you know, that's a, in some ways a whole nother conversation. But I would just note that because I think it's so impactful to anyone living, uh, in the 21st century. You know, particularly our relationship with our phones and where we choose to use them, Hey, this is a wonderful tool. We can harness this for much good.
And yet we also are gonna set certain boundaries for our screens and particularly our smartphones, um, so that we can be. More present with others, more present with the Lord, uh, more creative. And so setting good boundaries for technology will, will have a lot of bearing on our, both our mental health, our relational health, our spiritual health, and our physical health.
[00:29:23] Michael Martin: Yeah. That one has layers to all of the above. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Even just thinking about how, you said starting with sleep, um, and just how we're able to disconnect and actually be able to sleep really well. Right,
[00:29:37] Jedd Medefind: exactly. Well, and that's a great example of how all these things are intertwined, right?
Like, you know, there's studies that suggest that if you're getting exposed to blue light, whether from a TV screen or from a smartphone. You know, shortly before bed, that is going to affect the quality of your sleep. Um, e even if you're someone who says, oh, I can fall asleep, no problem. You know, because I'm so exhausted.
It is, it is going to affect the [00:30:00] REM cycles and the quality of, and restorative nature of your sleep. And so, so your relationship with the screen is gonna affect your sleep, which in turn then affects all the rest of your life as well.
[00:30:11] Michael Martin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for walking us through all those ingredients.
I'd love to shift us into, um, you were talking earlier about even some things, uh, very practically speaking that you're doing at cafo. And so I think about this idea of how do we create cultures where physical health, um, there's the appropriate attention that's given to it. Um, we're trying to care for others as God cares for us.
Maybe starting at the. Uh, at the highest level, if you will, if I can say it that way. But I just think of like, uh, how the tone is set at the top. We talk a lot about that, and even just the importance of not just, uh, for the leader, but how the board is interacting with the leader and then therefore how the leader, that ripple effect that happens throughout the organization.
So maybe starting at the board level, um, because again, the, the whole idea of physical health, it can kind of seem like it's a little bit of a personal topic. Um, something. I don't know, do boards feel comfortable talking about that? And yet it is such an important aspect as we've, as we've even just been sharing today, of the leader's overall wellbeing.
So, um, what thoughts do you have around that of how boards can help encourage leaders in an appropriate way, uh, to give attention to their physical health?
[00:31:25] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. You know, as you said it, it could be a delicate topic, right? And so I, I think. Boards very understandably would want to be careful about it and not imply that they're, you know, in some way sitting in judgment of a executive, director's, physical habits, those sorts of things.
However, I do think there is a way to communicate as a board communicating to a. Leader that we care so deeply about you, we love you, and we want to support your wellbeing in every sphere of life. And, um, you know, depending on the relationship between the board or say the board chair, the person who's talking a little more regularly with the the CEO, um, that might look differently.
But even questions like, Hey, how can we help support your physical health? Right. So it's not prescriptive, but it's, it's a question. And may, maybe that's like a, a question is something like, um, hey, would it be helpful if we provided a gym membership for you and your family? Would that, you know, is that something you would like, we'd like, you know, we'll, we'd provide that benefit.
Or, or a question like, um, you know, do you feel like you are able with, with your current responsibilities, do you feel like you are able to get enough sleep? And if not, we wanna work with you. To deal with that and help change that because we don't think that's what God wants for you, that you are perennially, sleep deprived and, you know, and, and that type of the, the framing it as this is us as the board caring deeply about you as a leader [00:33:00] and then thinking together about we, how we can care for and cultivate your health in all spheres, including the physical.
I, I think that's where the conversation can begin.
[00:33:10] Michael Martin: Yeah, I totally agree. Um, yeah, and I affirm the approach that you're suggesting there of even framing a lot of this as questions. Um, we talk about that a lot in these other contexts of leader care too. The, the heart behind it being one of, we wanna see boards being supportive.
Um, you know, and again, it's not prescriptive, but I think there is, there's really power in framing that. Even to the leader in the form of a question. Uh, because again, I think it does show like, Hey, we're trying to empower you as a leader, what would be most beneficial? What would be most life giving for you?
Yes.
[00:33:46] Jedd Medefind: Yes. And the, and the board in that is saying, we care about more than just your outputs and your metrics. We care about you. And we, you know, for, for at least two big reasons. First and foremost because we love you. And that's, you know, and, and, and God has given the board a primary responsibility to love and care for the leader.
But then secondly, this is gonna have immense bearing on the long-term fruitfulness of this organization, right? If this leader. You know, burns out, that's gonna have, of course, huge ramifications. But even if it never reaches that point, the, the crash and burn breakdown, even if it's, there's just a low grade exhaustion, a weariness, a, uh, you know, lack of creativity, a low, um, underlying ill health that is gonna have big impact on the organization as well.
[00:34:40] Michael Martin: Yeah. The other thing I'll mention about that too is I, I really appreciate your encouragement for boards to step into that space because I think it is important for leaders who maybe even have their own doubts or they're, they're even questioning themselves of like, Hey, is it okay that I'm. Taking some time to go to the gym or to, you know, get enough sleep or do some of these things.
I think the enemy would love to have leaders be in a place where they're just in their own heads and they're, you know, like they have these forms of doubt and they're not expressing them, but to have the, the board being able to come in and. Sort of be a witness to speak truth, uh, for leaders. I think that's so important for them to have that, um, that voice of the community around them speaking truth.
[00:35:24] Jedd Medefind: Absolutely. And, and in a sense, giving them permission right. To, um, and, and encouraging them to, to see their physical health. As something that God cares about and that they, along with God are inviting a leader into that receiving God's care in that physical realm.
[00:35:48] Michael Martin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so taking that same principle then, and again, working it throughout the organization.
Um, and I'm asking you this, 'cause I know like we've had these conversations and you've even shown me some things that, [00:36:00] uh, that you all have done, uh, at cafo. But as the leader of the organization, uh, you know, somebody who feels that blessing, that permission, if you will, uh, from the board even for you to experience that level of care.
I know there have been things that you have done intentionally. With the team there at CAFO and just kind of creating this as part of, um, a form of care or a culture of care that's being permeated throughout the organization and physical health is part of that. So I'd love to just hear you speak to that, you know, what have you seen to be some of the benefits?
What have been some of the challenges that you've had to wrestle with in doing that?
[00:36:35] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. Well, you know, I, I would say it, it starts. With casting a vision for these things. I mean, a lot of the things we're talking about here, Michael, and, and the, the, the, the whole team, the culture of the organization is one that, um, simultaneously is committed to really hard diligent work.
You know, that, that God has invited us into. Um, this marvelous privilege of joining him in his work on earth. And so there are, there's important things to be done and there is pouring out that God is inviting us to do so. We are very committed to that. We're not, this is not just about, uh, kind of the well padded, comfy life, right?
This, this is a hard calling. We're called into that. And we articulate that from the top. At the same time, we also wanna articulate that, that God is our good father delights to care for us. He's not asking us to continually pour out without anything pouring in. Rather, he is always desiring to pour life into us and that that in and in many ways, the primary responsibility we have in regard to that is learning how to receive.
Right. I mean, that's really the only thing that's incumbent upon the recipient of a gift is to open their hands and receive, understand how to receive. And, uh, that's, that's, that's grace, right? Grace is pure unmerited favor. And yet we are, our part in that is receiving, like in Isaiah 55, where, where God says, come all you who are thirsty, come to the waters and you have no money.
Come buy and eat. And he's all these words that are, they're saying, you can't earn this. Uh, but you do need to participate in receiving, right? So that, that framing as an organization, I think is very important, especially 'cause we can get it so wrong in a lot of different directions. And then as an organization.
We enter into that receiving together, right? And we're saying, Hey, yes, we're pouring out big time and we're learning to receive together, um, in equally serious and intentional ways. And, um, for Kfl, this includes a lot of different things. As, as you know, we have a strategic plan for thriving souls that really articulates in writing for ourselves, for the whole team, [00:39:00] um, ways in which.
Uh, we as the leadership seek to pour into every person of the team. Or again, maybe to clarify, not us pouring in. We're helping them to receive what God wants to pour in. Sometimes we're the facilitators of that, but, um, it is, it's God's care and it includes each sphere of their life. So there's a page on physical things that includes talking about and encouraging people to get adequate sleep.
You know, there's no legalism there. We're not, we're not policing anyone's sleep habits at all, but we're just encouraging. We're saying, we, we hope this for you and there's gonna be seasons where you can't, but we wanna encourage it. Right? And we, you know, and physical exercise, we, again, no one's judging, no one's particularly watching, but we are just encouraging that, um, that, you know, the, everything from doing phone calls while walking outdoors to, uh, providing, uh, help toward the cost of gym membership to incentivize that.
So we even Michael, we, we have, we do, every now and then we will have a just fun team contests where, you know, it'll be like East Coast staff versus West Coast staff, or it'll be, you know, groups of three or four and, and there'll be little fun contests that are, that have to do with like, getting a certain amount of steps each day.
Or, you know, things like that. And there's little prizes, you know, it's, it's in some ways just fun and feels like, uh, you know, junior high or something. Competitions, but, but, you know, talk and smack and all of that. But it's, it's again, just it's fun ways of all of us together growing in, learning to receive life from God, including in the physical realm.
[00:40:38] Michael Martin: Yeah. So what, uh, yeah, yeah. As you were saying that, I was thinking about the ECFA team. We are a competitive bunch too, so it'd be, it'd be interesting to implement some of that here. Um, yeah. What have you seen to be. The impact over time. Uh, I forget how long, uh, this type of strategic plan has been in place, the strategic plan for Thriving Souls, but over the course of time that that's been implemented, what, what difference have you seen that for, for your teams?
[00:41:04] Jedd Medefind: Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, I, I think if you just asked the CAFO staff, um, you know, those who've been around a long time and even those, you know, who joined six months ago. They would say there, there really is a culture that is both a culture of pouring out and working really hard and a culture of receiving and of healthy rhythms of life, uh, that is holistic.
It, it very much is grounded in. Spiritual life, spending time with the Lord each day. A weekly rhythm of Sabbath, um, a yearly rhythm of, of both time and solitude and of a vacation where you're completely away and off the grid and not checking email, right? Those things. But those things are not just spiritual, right?
Each of those affects our physical body like we [00:42:00] were talking about earlier, and they affect our emotional health and our relational health as well. And so, um. I think those who have been living in that would say, oh, yeah, yeah, this has been really good. And it is one of the, the, the things that just sustains me in my work.
One of, I think they would tell you this is one of the reasons I love working at CAFO is that the whole organization is committed to caring for us in our holistic sense. And not only are they committed to caring for us, but really to helping us to receive. God's care for us.
[00:42:36] Michael Martin: I love that. Well, I have a couple more questions for you.
One's gonna be a little more practical and then another's a little more philosophical. Alright. All for it. Okay. Alright. On the practical side. So, yeah, you know, I think again, just for leaders who are listening, they feel compelled by, uh, the vision of what this could be, you know, to implement, um, some of these different practices that would encourage health.
Um, but maybe they are. Uh, I don't know. They feel at capacity or they feel like, uh, I don't know. They've struggled or hit walls in this area, whatever it may be. Uh, I just, I, I know that there's a lot who would be kind of struggling with this topic. So what would be just that one or two very practical small steps that you'd recommend those leaders start with?
[00:43:21] Jedd Medefind: Yes. Well, and, and that's, that's a great question, Michael, and I think. What's wonderful is very small choices actually make a, a really big difference. And so it's, you know, it's the, the, the call here isn't, hey, go out and start training for marathon. Right? It is, it's very small things. And, um, you know, I, I would be, you know, I think I would start with sleep.
Um, and, and if that's, you know, if someone's not getting at least seven and a half-ish hours, I would encourage them just, you know, try to add 15 minutes to, to your. You know, if you're right now, if you're getting six hours and 45 minutes, like try to bring up that to seven and, and if you can, seven 15, you know, um, and you know, or what, so work within what you're able to do right now, but take a small step and, and be confident that this is something God wants for you.
You're not robbing him by getting a decent night's sleep. You're, you know, you're robbing yourself in ways he does not intend. And so, you know, I would, I would say. Have this paradigm of small choices repeated over long periods of time. That's, that's where it's at. We're not talking about this big major life shift.
We're actually talking about small choices repeated over long periods of time. So a little bit more sleep each night. And with that, I, you know, encourage trying more or less to get to bed around the same time, because if there's a consistency to the window when you're sleeping, that sleep is gonna be of, of higher quality.
Um, that, that might be, you know, one place. On the, on the, the food side. Um, I, I would say probably the biggest [00:45:00] thing for me, um, would be making the decision. Uh, about what you're going to eat while you're shopping and not, uh, in the moment, meaning like, if there is certain things, certain things are in my cupboard, I will eat them.
You know? And if it's potato chips and ch you know, chocolate, lots of chocolate bars and things like that, like at some point they're gonna end up in my belly, right. But if I'm kind of minimizing what's, if, you know, in my, my cupboard, um, keeping it mostly healthy, mostly good. And then hey, of course having exceptions, but maybe mainly having those when I'm going out for a meal, um, or, or in some other way, kind of keeping that relatively small and then just.
Trying to say, I mean, for instance, let me just say number one, if, if someone's drinking a lot of soda, I would just recommend like making a decision not to, not to have it in your house. And now, now for some that feels unthinkable and I apologize to you, that's okay. You know, no judgment if you need to keep drinking the soda, but, but if soda's a big part of your life, just consider, hey, getting sparkling waters or other things that you enjoy.
But, and, and if you need to enjoy soda when you go out for dinner, it's a, it's, it can be a, a treat, right? No, no legalism there, but just not having it in your cupboards or in your fridge, because if it's there, it's, you know, it's gonna end up in your belly and that's, you're gonna get tons of unhealthy calories and sugar and caffeine.
And so, you know, now that's getting very practical and some people. Take it or leave it. Right. But, but it's smaller choices, individual choices like that, that over time, if, if we can keep even a few of these small habits, they add up to a great deal.
[00:46:44] Michael Martin: Yeah. Hey, we're still listening. We're still with you.
Good. Good, good tips. And no, I think you touched on a key point there because you know, leaders by nature are ambitious, you know, and it's like we've, if, if we take on something, we think we need to take on the, you know, the big thing or all at once. So I just affirm what you said about, I think it is important, small steps, one at a time.
And uh, they make a big difference over time. So thank you for that advice. And then, yeah, one last question for you. Uh, and again, this is maybe. Less on the practical side, a little bit more philosophical, but again, coming back to where we started, I know you and I have had a lot of conversations about leader care and just dreaming about how things might be different in the kingdom as a result of, um, more intentionality around this, you know, boards that are investing in leader care, the types of things that are.
Behind E CFA's new Leader Care standard. So I'd just love to end it here with what are some of the broader shifts that you hope to see in the Kingdom as a result of leaders boards partnering together, organizations investing, not just in the physical. Side of leader care like we've talked about today, but in terms of the holistic wellbeing of leaders, what are some of those broader shifts that [00:48:00] you hope to see for the church?
[00:48:01] Jedd Medefind: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I, I just, I believe with all my heart that Jesus was absolutely right when he said A good tree will produce good fruit. Meaning if a tree is healthy, then the fruit is gonna be great. Right? And I, and I grew up on a small farm and I saw this, you know, that if, if my dad's almond trees were healthy, then the crop WA was, was great.
And if we think of each. Uh, person, both the leaders, the CEO's, leading organizations, as well as the individual members of the team as part of the orchard, right? Each of them, a tree in God's orchard that if we are caring for those trees, if they are. Uh, reasonably healthy in the different spheres of their life.
And of course I would say number one is their relationship with the Lord, right? Their spiritual life. But as we've said many times, that is deeply connected with and will be affected by health in other spheres, including the physical, like we've talking, been talking about today, emotional, intellectual, relational health.
And so when. Uh, boards and then leaders are, are thinking intentionally about this and caring well for those under, uh, their leadership. Then I expect exactly what Jesus said will happen, which is it? The good trees, the well cared for thriving trees will produce good fruit and that kingdom fruit looks like.
First of all, those individuals themselves flourishing them, being filled with more joy and more peace, and more patience and kindness and goodness, those things will be flowing up from their lives, right? They'll be happier, more joyful. And then secondly. The way in which they lead will be far more fruitful as well.
Right. Their impact relationally will be much richer and more beautiful and and strong. And the organizations they lead will be stronger as well because the people within them will be more resilient. When people, you know, butt up against each other, they'll be able to bear with each other more readily because they're not worn thin and exhausted.
Um, they will be more creative. They'll be, you know, when, when there's this. Big tough challenge ahead. They will say, you know, let's go for that hill, rather than saying, Ugh, I'm just too weary to do it. And so, um, I, I feel not just confident, but, but certain of that, you know, that, that if God's people lean into this, not as some new self-help, uh, self-care vision, but as a vision for lives of pouring out.
Really seriously desiring to pour out for God's kingdom, but also for receiving the good, good gifts of God. Man, if we are doing that, the fruit is gonna be marvelous.
[00:50:57] Michael Martin: That's a good word. May we see that [00:51:00] vision come to pass. Thank you for all the ways that you've helped support ECFA in this journey, including, uh, all of your great thoughts today around physical health.
We really appreciate it, Jedd.
[00:51:10] Jedd Medefind: Absolutely Michael.
[00:51:14] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal Podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.