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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
DR JOEL MUDDAMALLE:
Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, and I'm so glad that you're here with us. I'm excited to introduce you to a new friend who you'll hear from today, my dear friend Jonathan Pokluda, also known as JP.
JOEL:
JP is an incredible pastor and author of Your Story Has a Villain: Identify Spiritual Warfare and Learn How to Defeat the Enemy. I know you're going to love hearing from him as we discuss topics like the enemy's weapons, deconstruction, and the doubts we all carry, and so much more.
JOEL:
Before we dive in, I want to speak to those of you who are walking through a season of hardship. Often, what God teaches us through our own hard seasons becomes part of how we help someone else through theirs. I know that that's been personally true for me. That's why we're so grateful for our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. Their fully online certificate program, Caring for People God's Way, is a biblical counseling program that teaches you how to use God's word effectively in caring for others well, and a special scholarship is available for our listeners, which brings the complete program down to just $99.
JOEL:
Visit lightuniversity.com/proverbs31 to learn more and claim your scholarship today. Okay, now let's jump back into today's conversation
JOEL:
Well, welcome today, uh, Shae. I'm with my dear friend, uh, JP Pokluka. Many of you guys will know of JP already, but I want you to know him the way that I know him, Shae.
JOEL:
And, I know of JP as a big brother in the faith. A man who loves Jesus, who loves his family, loves his kids, loves his local church. For as tall as he is, there's a rumor that he can dunk. I think I've seen a clip before that, uh, of you dunking. I'm not sure if that is current time or, uh-
JONATHAN POKLUDA:
No, definitely not
JOEL:
from back in the day.
JP:
Definitely not current time. I was in flip-flops though.
JOEL:
You were.
JP:
I was in flip-flops.
JOEL:
I do, I do remember that.
JP:
I've seen it circulate.
JOEL:
JP is a, a pastor at Harris Creek, uh, in Waco. JP is an author of many books and, and JP is a dear friend. And we're holding. And so JP, thanks so much for being with us on Therapy and Theology Podcast.
JP:
Oh, thank you for having me. And we're holding the line that MJ is the GOAT, and, uh, that's, that's Joel and I just holding that line, so.
JOEL:
We're gonna hold that line. We're gonna hold that line.
SHAE:
I love it so much. Also, bonus points if you actually did dunk in flip-flops. That sounds like it could get dangerous.
JOEL:
He did, I've seen it. I know there's video of it.
JP:
Guys, I was, I was hospitalized for 14 days. I am now disabled. I, I can hardly walk, and you're just, you're just rubbing my nose in it, and, and, uh-
SHAE:
Oh my goodness
JP:
... it, it hurts my feelings.
SHAE:
Oh, no. Oh, no. Are we getting off to a bad start?
JP:
Oh, oh, it's a fine start. Because it was spiritual warfare, I was attacked by a demon, but that's okay.
SHAE:
That's true.
JP:
I don't know if you wanna go there or not. Probably-
S:
Oh, well, I think we are gonna go there
JP:
... you guys probably don't cover those kinds of topics on, on this pod. You probably want me to stay... Let me guess. I've gotta stay PC and be safe and in the boundaries, so I'm, I won't, I won't talk about the ax-wielding demon that- impacted my spine.
JOEL:
That went for your spine. That went for your spine. I remember you texted me about it-
JP:
it was crazy
JOEL:
... and, we were, we're working through it, and I think this is a good place to start, honestly. That, uh-
JP:
Shae's like, "Oh, no."
SHAE:
No.
JP:
I love it.
SHAE:
I feel... No. Between, uh, Lysa, Jim, and Joel, who I would call our home team on Therapy and Theology there's been many times I've been sitting on set, and I'm like, "Wasn't in the notes. Where are we headed?" So I have had many years of, of trusting the process, and I, I love this podcast, 'cause we get to go there. But just to catch you up a little bit, JP, we are in season 14 of Therapy and Theology.
SHAE:
We're talking about how we can live in this broken world that we are in every single day and carry spiritual perspectives, and we really want to help our listeners, and Joel's been such an amazing guide through all of these conversations. But we really wanna help our listeners not live in extremes where we're either obsessing over the spiritual realm, and we think everything is the enemy, like the barista that messed up my coffee, that was Satan coming after me. 'Cause there's a-
JOEL:
It could have been, though. Sometimes it-
SHAE:
... and maybe for you, Joel-
JOEL:
I'm just playing
SHAE:
... that would be- ... that would be the case.
SHAE:
But, where we think everything is the enemy, or the other camp would be where we just completely neglect the enemy, and we e- either because of ignorance or... I mean, there could, there could be so many reasons why we live and just like neglecting his existence and activity in our lives. But we really want people to live by the power of the Holy Spirit in a place of wisdom and discernment, where they're rightly assessing their circumstances and not giving into fear, um- because we already have victory through Jesus.
SHAE:
But that's kind of where we've been over the last couple of episodes. So, so glad that you're joining us. I know that you've written a book called Your Story Has a Villain: Identify Spiritual Warfare and Learn How to Defeat the Enemy, and our friend here, Joel, even wrote the foreword.
SHAE:
So I feel like this is truly so aligned and perfect. But I wanna know where your passion comes from for these topics and where your passion came from, not even just for the book, but for helping people grow in education around this topic and wisdom around this topic, because I know long before a book is published, a passion is birthed. And so tell us a little bit about where that came from for you.
JP:
Let me respond to, uh, you know, uh, I'm gonna try to go in order of the things you shared, and I'll start by saying, yeah, Joel, dear, Dr. Joel's a dear friend, and I'm not glazing him, but he, he is my phone-a-friend often on spiritual warfare matters, and so we do go back and forth, and I'm always learning from him.
JP:
And I think it was C.S. Lewis who I first heard said, you know, there's two mistakes we make about the devils. You know, we either o- o- obsess, as you said, or, or, or don't think about them at all. I'm, I'm for sure more in the obsess camp, in the sense that- It, two realities are very true for me, both that you touched on Shae is, is one I believe that everything has spiritual implications, even the, you know, messed up pour over and the, the wicked barista that, that did as such.
JP:
However, the... I very much believe we have victory in Christ. And so the, the, to an- now to answer your question, you know, where does the passion come from? It's because I was guilty for sure of the never thinking about it ever. Like, I mean, our, in, in this collection of 66 books that we hold in, in very high regard as the authoritative word of God, you get cha- three chapters in and there's a talking serpent and, you know, who tempts mankind into, uh, sin rushing in like a tsunami, cancer and brokenness and death and disease and heartbreak.
JP:
And, and then all throughout the scriptures, there's all kinds of crazy supernatural like, you know, talking donkeys and beings that are, you know, would, would terrify someone should they actually see them. And, and, you know, people's eyes being enlightened where they see an army and, and someone killing 270,000, a, a, a being killing over 200,000 soldiers in an evening.
JP: And so all, all throughout the scriptures you have this, and we almost read it like it's legendary. And so when I was enlightened with this like, oh goodness, spiritual warfare is a real thing, and it's a little bit like Christianity 101. Like it's, it's the, it's, it's right there. It should be like basic knowledge for all believers.
JP:
I began to see the world completely different. And I, and I'd love to expound on both of those ideas of, you know, the, the spiritual, uh, world and the victory that we have, but I'll just... Like, that's where the passion comes from, is me kind of transitioning from the person who never thought about it, you know, that, you know, that doesn't think there's a demon behind any bush, to now kind of being the person who, oh, there's probably at least two behind every bush, so.
JOEL:
No, I love that, JP. I think one of the things I'm curious about for you, I've heard your story so many times. You know, you are so honest, uh, and transparent in where you were before Jesus to where you are now because of the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of, of Jesus. And so, like, for you, as you were first coming through…coming to know Jesus, and then having that recognition, that Colossians 1:16 from being transferred from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light, uh, where do you think it is that our, our culture, our society, our generation, is getting blindsided by the enemy when it comes to the things of the spiritual realm?
JOEL:
'Cause like you said, there are so much that is just blatant in front of us that we'd be like, "Yo, that's evil." Like, like, that is just straight up wrong. That's evil. That's immoral. And yet there's a disconnect between this is evil And then the plausibility, I would argue the high possibility and probability that there are dark powers that are at work behind the scenes that are motivating all this. And so for Christians, like, man, how can we keep getting blindsided by this thing?
JP:
Well, that's a great question. I think that, you know, was, was it Reservoir Dogs where he said the greatest trick the devil's ever pulled is convince the world he doesn't exist? I think that's, wherever that came from, I, I think it was repeated in, in Batman at some point too, and that is certainly a huge part of Satan's game plan here in America, is just trying to get us to not think about him. But then I also see the slippery slope as we, as we move further and further from the Lord, of us beginning to call what is, is evil good, and what was once upon a time universally everybody would look at it and say, "That is only evil." I, I see a world beginning to make more and more excuses of it.
JP:
And so I think that I just got swept up in my own world of, you know, not thinking about Satan very much, thinking that was a really rogue, there's these people, they're a cult, they're Satan worshipers, they're out there, they've got Ouija boards and seances, and they're sacrificing goats, and that's somewhere, it's not near me, and I just wasn't thinking about that.
JOEL:
And, and now in hindsight, I can see my entire spiritual journey through the lens of spiritual warfare. The, the me inviting the demonic into my own life through pornography, the gateway of pornography, and that addiction not just being a, you know, dopamine, serotonin, brain pathways, synapse, uh, addiction, but also, oh, there's demons that I've invited into my life that are, that are gripping my, my heart with, you know, this, with this addiction and, and, and inviting them in through drugs, uh, through sex, through alcohol.
JP:
And so I d- I just have now new language looking at this. And so here's how I would, you know, ex- talk about it, you know, to the listener or, or viewer is- It's like if we go to, you know, a theme park. They call it a theme park 'cause they have a, a theme. You know, we go to, we go to Disney World and we- we're on that...
JP:
What's that ride where you are, are on the river and, and, all those obnoxious kids are s- singing? Uh, it's, it's a small world after all.
SHAE:
It's a small world after all.
JP:
So you're like, you're like transported into this other world for a moment, for like three and a half minutes, and you're kind of, you're there. Or you go to Epcot and you're like in Germany and you're in, you know, China, and you're in just different places around the world. Or you go to Universal Studios and you're in Harry Potter Land. Like, you are, you are in the illusion that you're in this other world. There's a dragon on a building, and it's like you're in Harry Potter L- Potter Land.
JP:
But that's not real. It's something that a, a person made to give you the illusion that you're in Harry Potter World. And, and what Harry Potter World is to this world, where I sit in this chair in this room in this time and space, I think this world is to the supernatural world or the spiritual realm. To say it in, in plain English, I think the spiritual realm is more real than this world.
JP:
And the... And you say, "Well, how can you say that? You're sitting in the chair." And I'm like, "Yeah, but the, this chair will, will s- much sooner than any of us think cease to exist." The, the fabrics on it will break down, and the wood will decay, and it will end up in a, in a landfill covered with dirt. But the spiritual realm will always be there.
JP:
I- and, you know, 100 years from now, still there, and 100 billion years from now, it's still there. Uh, n- when I say there, I don't mean exactly where it is right now, but it will still exist. And so I, I think there's these things that we read that we kind of w- you know, we, we might even say, "Hey, I'm not a cessationist. I, I don't, I don't believe there was a really unique thing happening there, that what happened there still happens today." And yet we actually read the Bible like a cessationist. We, we believe... We read the Bible, and we don't actually think that that stuff still happens. And so, I can say more about that, but I'll, I'll pause there for a second.
JOEL:
No, that's, that's so good. And, the place that I'd love for us to go for just for a second is the area of the deception of the enemy. You talk a lot about that i- in the book. Uh, we've had a lot of conversations about it. And I, I'm a Bible nerd. Uh, all of you guys know that about me, uh, through and through.
JOEL:
And I, I've been, uh, obsessed with the Psalms of Ascent. Eugene Peterson wrote an incredible book called The Long Obedience in the Same Direction, and kind of walks through the Psalms of Ascent. And, uh, as I was studying and, and kind of teaching on it, uh, recently, I kind of had this, like, moment. I don't know if you've ever had this, JP, like, when you're, like, teaching and then, like, live while you're teaching, a light bulb kind of goes off, and you're like, "Whoa, how, how did I not..."
JOEL:
And for me it was like, wait a minute, you know, Psalm 121, "I lift..." Psalm 121, "I lift my eyes to the mountains. Where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord, from the maker of heaven and Earth." And the Hebrew poetry of that is like, it's actually passive-aggressive. It, it's saying, like, for real, your, your help's gonna come from the mountains?
JOEL:
Because in the ancient world, the mountains were the place where the altars to Baal, Molech, Ishtar, all these false gods of the nations resided. And the Psalm's like, "Lift your eyes beyond the mountains to the one who has created all of creation." Like, that's kind of the, the big idea. And I had this moment where I was like, wait a minute.
JOEL:
In the ancient world, at least these idols and these gods, fal- demon and demonic entities, at least they were, like, overt. There was an overt nature. You could walk out, you could see it, right? And today the deception I think is like, we're like, "Well, I don't see no altar to Baal." "And I don't- I'm not seeing Molech around here," or, you know.
JOEL:
A- and it's like, well, 'cause the dark powers are working in covert ways, and I think especially here in a Western culture, you know? And one of the ways specifically it's working out is through deconstruction. and I know it's something that you've thought a lot about, but I'd love for us to just for a moment talk about the tactic of the enemy in the area of deconstruction and the deceptions of, like, the area of gender and sexuality, the area of politics.
JOEL:
You know, church hurt is a massive one. Uh, where it's like, "I'm just-- I, I can have Jesus, but I just don't want the church," you know? We're hearing a lot of that. And so, I mean, you're pastoring a local church. These are things that you're dealing with day in and day out. could you unpack a little bit about the enemy's role in even in deconstruction in this era?
JP:
It's just to over and under-emphasize an idea, as is what he always does. And so, you know, God says, "You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," or, "or you will surely die." Eve repeats it. He said, "We, we must not eat or touch." And, and then Satan says, "You will surely not die," or, "You will not surely die."
JP:
And, and so, like, that progression is, is what's happening in the deconstruction of, you know, just it's, it's essentially doubting the goodness of God, and then, and then it gets to doubting the doctrine of God. And it's just Satan saying, "Hey, there's another way." It's either an easier way or a more convenient way, or it gives you immediate gratification in your own wounds.
JP:
And so, like, when I... I learned a lot when I went to Haiti, and, and there's, you know, there It is more overt, right? Not covert, but more obvious because there are witch doctors and there are, voodoo temples and altars and, and, I, I can just... You know, they, they said at the time that I went, you know, which was like 2011, 2012 for the first time.
JP:
I've been six times. But for the first time, and someone said I was studying the, the nations, so to, to be able to minister there, and they said at the time, "Haiti's 80%, uh, Catholic, 20% Protestant, and 100% voodoo." And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" And they're like, "Well, you know, people practice different ideas of the Christian faith, and yet they all practice..."
JP:
And this is a generalization, but at the time they said, this is what someone told me, they all practice voodoo. And I said, "Well, why would, why would someone practice Christianity and voodoo?" And they said, "Because the Haitians believe in God, they just believe He's slow." And so when, you know, their prayers don't work for a sick, sick child, you know, they'll give that two days of, of asking Yahweh to, to heal this child, asking Jesus to heal their child.
JP:
But when their child doesn't get better, then they go to the voodoo priest and, you know, he makes sacrifices to Satan to, to try and heal this child. And once, if that child gets better and that word spreads, then people know that voodoo priest, you know, can help them in, in their, their ailment And there was this revival that happened in Haiti in 2010 because the, of the great earthquake.
JP:
They said, you know, "O- only God, the Creator, could shake the earth like that," is, is what was kind of roaming throughout the land. But as I think about America, you know, we don't have a voodoo priest or a voodoo temple on every corner. It's a church. We have a church on every corner and a Bible in every hotel room, and we believe in God, we just believe He's slow.
JP:
And so we turn to the god of mammon, not the voodoo priest, but we use our own resources. We think, "If I can just make more money, if I can just have, if I can just have more things, more access, then I will be able to, to, you know, turn to my own god of control, which is my control, and I can fix this myself rather than rely on God."
JP:
And Satan, I don't know which one he likes better, you know? I don't... He doesn't need a voodoo priest if, if we, if he can get us to worship, you know, money. He doesn't need us to have a seance or a Ouija board if he can just get us to think that we are God, because that is the spirit, the satanic spirit, is, you know, for us to, to think that we don't want to worship God, but we want to be our own god.
JP:
That is the satanic spirit in the land, the, the, the spirit of selfishness. And so I think the enemy hides here behind our control, behind our materialism, and behind our selfishness, and that's where it's... A- and then with deconstruction, it's just whenever we get disappointed in God, what it looks like for us to try to be our own god is, is to say, "Well, I'm gonna...
JP:
I'm not gonna turn toward the one that can help me in my hurt. I'm gonna turn away from Him because I wanna be my own god." And it just plays the, it's the same story played out in a different way.
JOEL:
I wanna hand this over to Shane in a second. I think that one of the things about deconstruction that I've learned is that at the core of the deconstruction movement is typically a, a deep wounding. Like an, an, it's often like an honest wounding. You know? It's an hur- it's a hurt, and it's a pain. And then there's this, uh, this technical term called standpoint epistemology. It's like knowledge based off of where I'm standing from, you know? And so one of the deceptions of the enemy in this, uh, season, I think, JP, is a weaponizing of the Bible and the Biblical text.
JOEL:
I can come and go to whichever passage I want to kind of create my own doctrine and- ... one of the things that I've said is like, man, uh, you know, Lysa has this quote, you're, you're the better, uh, quoter of the emotions. Emotions, uh-
SHAE:
Oh
JOEL:
... are good indicators, but horrible dictators.
SHAE:
Our feelings are indicators, not dictators.
JOEL:
Same, same, but you, you got it. So I basically plagiarize Lysa all the time. And so basically, Li- you know, I've, I've changed it.
SHAE:
It's not plagiarism if you give her credit. You gave her credit.
JP:
Feelings are real, but not always reliable.
SHAE:
Another great one.
JOEL:
So I say, like, you know, our emotions should be good indicators of the condition of our heart, but our emotions should never dictate our doctrine, you know? And in the deconstruction movement, it does feel like, man, our emotions are dictating doctrine, and now we're reading back into the text this, from this place of wounding and this place of- ... pain and hurt. And I just love the thing that you said about, you know, what you learned when you're overseas is like, is at the core.
JOEL:
It's like, man, we just are disappointed in God, and we doubt His goodness. And we're tired of Him being slow, and so we want control and power, and we use our intellectualism. And at the end of that road is cons- is consistent failure and anxiety and depression, and it just does not, you know, lead to a fruitful and fulfilling life. And so I think that's a, a really big issue. Shae?
SHAE:
Something that I wrote down, uh, that you'd said, JP, is deception is doubting the goodness or doctrine of God. And I know that you, as a pastor, but also you've worked with so many, talked with and worked with so many young people, where I feel like this is really a bit, this topic of doubt and deconstruction can kinda be a hot topic because I feel like it's come up of, it's good to express your doubts.
SHAE:
And then other people would say, "Okay, but doubts are not from God." And so I'm kinda looking to both of you guys here, how can we help our listeners today, uh, know where to place their doubts? Is it ever, is it okay to question? Is it ever, how do we know when our questioning's gone too far? Is questioning a part of a healthy faith? Uh, where do we take our doubts? Because I do know it is a tool of the enemy. He works in deception, he works in division, and he works in doubt. And so what do we do with our doubts that do come up as just life in a broken world, uh, and how do we process them in a way that we're not giving into the schemes of the enemy?
JP:
I'd love to hear from Dr. Joel, but I'll say, I'll insert this idea and just say, it, when we say doubts, we have to define it, if it's on, where, on what side of salvation it is. And so is it a non-believer doubting, you know, the promises and goodness of God, or a believer doubting the promises of goodness of God, because I would do something slightly different in, in trying to discern which is, you know, one, it's, it's the gospel, and for the believer we need to be reminded of the gospel.
JP:
But to the believer, I would say doubt your doubts. You know? It's like, where do you place your doubt? Well, try to place them on your doubts, 'cause it's like- A, a doubt is just a thought, you know? And, and so it's a question. Uh, at the end of a doubt is a question mark, and so now you just have to look for the answer, and then where you go for the answer really matters.
JP:
And so if we're turning to, you know, we believe 2 Corinthians... I'm sorry, 2 Timothy 3:16, that all scripture is God-breathed and used for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. And then we believe Ephesians 4, that I'm not to stay where I'm at, but I am to be built up and grow to the matureness of the follower of Jesus.
JP:
Uh, I'm on this journey of, of growing strong in the faith. Then we want to feed our doubts the truth, you know, the, the protein and the creatine of truth, if you will. The, the steroids of truth so that, that we're actually growing strong. And then what happened is our doubts became a tool to where, uh, t- targeted and aimed at our own spiritual growth.
JP:
And so somebody said, "Man, how did you get so spiritually mature?" I said, "Well, I doubted, which drove me to searching for the answers, and I found the answers." As a non-believer doubts, you know, then it's like I would go apologetics, and I would go, you know, I would appeal to, to the logic. And where I really agree with, you know, agree with everything that's been said, where I would emphasize my agreement- Is, is, it's so many of doubts and deconstruction, and I don't know of an exception, candidly.
JP:
So I would say all that I've experienced is rooted in a hurt of some kind. A- and the hurt can be something really tragic, uh, or as little as just disappointment, missed expectation. So somewhere between missed expectation and something really tragic happening, insert the solution, the enemy solution of, "Well, you just need to deconstruct," uh- without reconstructing.
SHAE:
That's so good, and something that we have talked about a lot on Therapy and Theology, I think it's Lysa that says it, is, you may not be able to control your first thought, but you can control your second thought, and that's what makes me think of, of our doubts of, okay, you may not have full control over the doubt that entered, whether it was something that just popped into your head or something that someone said that made you doubt or whatever that looks like, but what are you gonna do? What's that next second thought gonna be? Joel, what do you have to add to that?
JOEL:
I mean, I think that's just so good, JP. Uh, one of the things I would ask, all of us, myself included, with our doubts, is where is our doubt leading us? What's, like, what is the outcome of the doubt? And I think typically it goes to two places.
JOEL:
It's either a doubt that leads you into the belief that you're gonna have to do this on your own, so it's like self-dependence, right? Or it's a kind of doubt that leads you, and I believe that the core virtue of this for, especially for believers, for all people, but for believers especially, is the virtue of humility, which leads you to a self-awareness of your human limitations, your inability.
JOEL:
Like, you know, the, the famous, uh, like, the hip hop artists once said, like, "The more money, the more problems," you know? It's like, man, the, the more, the more questions, the more answers. The more answers, the more questions. Like-
JP:
Second time today that's come up, by the way.
JOEL:
Let's go. That's why you're my guy. And so I think, like, that's, that's the, the question is, like, for the believers, like, is, can you be honest? We should be honest. Yahweh invites, I think of the Book of Job. I mean, my goodness, 37 chapters of honesty, of doubt, of confusion, and it's not till the 38th chapter that Yahweh finally starts talking.
JOEL:
So He allows a good amount of time for you to express yourself, and then Yahweh's like, "Hey," and this is, like, the Joel translation, "All right, homie, get ready. 'Cause you asked a lot of stuff. You exposed a lot of your doubts, and now just be ready for where the answer is." And so, I would just encourage us to be honest about our doubts.
JOEL:
I think it doesn't help anybody to be, like, disillusioned with your doubts or to push your doubts underneath a, a rug and to bury it underneath the rug or whatever the, the saying is, and to act like it's not there. 'Cause I actually think that's typically, over time is what will, uh, cultivate a kind of deconstruction, you know?
JOEL:
You just never deal with the thing, you know? My, my daughter last night, she skinned her knee. I'm taking my boys to, to basketball practice. My wife calls me, she's like, "You've got to get the Band-Aid with Neosporin. Like, you've got to do it because this is gonna be a nightmare," you know? And so get home late at night, and MJ's there, and she's just, like, so angry and frustrated that she did that, and I have to put the Band-Aid on her knee, and she's, like, crying, "Daddy, don't do it.
JOEL:
It hurts so much." I'm like, "Babe, if I don't do this now, and we don't address it now, it's gonna create chaos for you in the future. And if it's infection or something else, I mean, we don't want to. Let's just address it now." And so I'd say the same thing with our doubts is, like, address it, allow it to lead you to the foot of the cross.
JOEL:
And then to what you said, JP, allow the, the truth and the reliability of Scripture to help dictate your doctrine and your decisions from there moving forward. And we've got really good news. We are the recipients, like, where we stand today in human history, we are recipients of a 2,000-year history of the reliability and the, like, the, the truth of the Gospel and how it has worked throughout humanity.
JP:
I love it.
SHAE:
That's so good. I also wanna camp out maybe and talk about confession for a little bit and just the- ... importance of community that is at play with your doubts. I think one of the really dangerous things that we can do is stay stuck in our minds and stuck in our thoughts when we're wrestling with something.
SHAE:
And, as much as we love these conversations on therapy and theology, it, we can only go so far, you know? This, this podcast is never supposed to take the place of a healthy, in-person, thriving, uh, body of believers however that shapes out, you know, for all of our listeners. And so if anybody, y'all, if y'all have anything to add to this topic of confession, I just wanna normalize that it's really good to go to each other, friend to friend, shoulder to shoulder, and confess where some things are, you're wrestling through some things.
SHAE:
And I think when we speak those things out loud to another believer, I think that there is power in that, knowing how to pray for each other, how to honestly wage war against Satan in that moment through the body of Christ. and so I think that's important to normalize because I feel like I've heard some people say, like, "Oh, if you speak it out loud, then it's like..."
SHAE:
And it's like, no, we gotta bring this out from the darkness into the light. anything that y'all wanna add about just community and confession in, in this conversation?
JP:
In, in Christian Science, uh, which is a, a- not Christian or science, I would say. But they, they believe in, there's a practice there called mental malpractice, and it's if, if people are thinking it, then it's going to get worse for you. Ma- Mary Baker Eddy taught this. And, that's not Christian orthodoxy. And what is Christian orthodoxy is James 5:16, "Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed, for the prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective."
JP:
The scripture's telling us that there's a healing that only comes by way of confession. And so for the person who feels stuck in a demonic stronghold or foothold, or you may even just call it an addiction, and you can't break free, but you haven't confessed, I would say you really haven't even started to try to break free, because the scripture tells us that this healing only comes by way of confession.
JP:
And so to make that really practical, every week I, I meet with some, some guys, we sit at a table, and we answer three questions that are, "How did you feed your soul? How did you feed others? How did you feed your flesh?" How did you feed your soul? That's inputs. Inputs like podcasts, books you're listening to, where you're reading in the scriptures, sermons you're listening to.
JP:
Like, what are you learning about God and theology? Uh, how did you feed others? That's evangelism and discipleship. What conversations have you had with other people on the topic of Jesus or the scriptures? And then how did you feed your flesh? That's confession. That's like, where did you slow down on a reel?
JP:
You know, where did you, you take a second glance? What did you buy that you didn't need? Where did you, you know, act out of anger or frustration? Where did you do something outside the will of God? And you would confess it, and then the next person would pr- will pray for me, and then they will go, uh, "How did you feed your soul?
JP:
How did you feed others? How did you feed your flesh?" My friend John Elmore came up with these questions, and they've been incredible gifts to our church. And we, we just, we do that. We ask life groups to do that every week. And so, I just would, would reiterate that when you bring something into... Like, Satan and, and the demonic realm loves you keeping things in the dark, whether it's something that you, you did or something that was done to you.
JP:
The last thing he wants to do, Revelation 12 says, we trample over the enemy. We trample over Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. The last thing he wants you to, to do is to use your story as a weapon against the demonic realm. So the way that they will try to convince you to not do that is to say, "You can't tell anybody that.
JP:
You have to keep it in the dark. Don't talk about it. It's not appropriate to talk about." And in doing so, they can keep you in that cage. Uh, they can keep you in that cage of shame. They can keep you in that cage of guilt. They can keep you in that, that cage of regret without ever being healed through the gift of confession.
SHAE:
That's so good. Joel, do you have anything that you wanna add or ask before I ask our final question?
JOEL:
I mean, the only thing is just a little, again, nerdy Bible thing, is that, uh, when Paul in the New Testament, he's talking to the church in Corinth, and the church in Galatia, and the church in Ephesus, and, in, you know, the, in the Greek text, when he says, "You," overwhelmingly that you is second person plural And so we read you in a hyper-individualistic society as me, myself, and I.
JOEL:
You know, we think of, of it individually. But when Paul's talking about sanctification, when he's talking about godliness, when he's talking about growing in the Lord, when he's talking about the joy, of following Jesus, uh, confession, repentance, when he's talking about all these things, he's saying y'all to the local church.
JOEL:
And so, I think that there is something so important when we consider that we're living in an era that is the most interconnected than it has ever been before. You know, like, like, I was traveling the other day, and I had somebody come up to me at the airport, and they were like, you know, just talking, very encouraged by Therapy & Theology and some of the work, you know, ministry stuff that we've done, and, and was like, "Oh my gosh, I feel like I know you," and, and, you know.
JOEL:
And I think that's so sweet and that's so amazing. And then on the opposite side of it is like, but she doesn't know me, and I don't know who she is. And, you know, there, there's a, a sense of disconnection there, but social media gives you the allure, the, the expression, like the, the belief that there is a, a connection.
JOEL:
And that could be a deception and a strategy of the enemy to make you feel like, oh, that's so cool. I know that person. Move on and actually never have any real connection in my life, you know? Uh, went through a season, recently where we've do- done some intensive therapy stuff as a family, and there's this concept, Jim has talked about this before, but every rip requires a repair.
JOEL:
And the only way that a repair can happen is through... And this is, like, deep therapy stuff that I'm listening to all this. I'm going like, "This is Jesus. What are we even talking about right here?" This is forgiveness. This is, reconciliation, and it's like, oh, f- there has to be confession and acknowledgement of what I've done or what was done to me, the impact of what that had done to me or has, is happening in my life, and then almost like this marked moment of saying, "And I'm gonna cover this in the blood of Jesus in a commitment to each other because we love each other.
JOEL:
We're gonna now move forward from this point." In, in the absence of that, all that happens is a wound that festers.
SHAE:
So good.
JP:
That's a good one.
SHAE:
And we can't have that confession without that connection first. I'm glad that you landed us there. Okay. My last question I want to ask is just thinking about the person that has journeyed with us through these conversations and so much around this topic of the unseen realm and spiritual battles and all of this uh, conversation even around the enemy is either new to them or they, it's just not in their everyday conversation, and, there's a little bit of fear that has gotten stirred up in them.
SHAE:
JP, how do you encourage someone that says, "Okay, I hear you that actually maybe the, the spiritual realm is, like, what's gonna last forever, and this, uh, seen reality that I'm- ... experiencing right now is actually what's fleeting, but... And I s- I hear you that there's, you know, demonic activity at play, but it actually stirs up a lot of fear in me to consider the enemy in my everyday life." How would you encourage them and dispel that fear?
JP:
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, if that's you, I'm gonna try and accomplish two things. I'm gonna make you more afraid. Only to tell you that you do not need to fear at all. And so I would, in the scripture, I would go to Acts nineteen. And so, I'll read it to you, verse thirteen. "Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, 'In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.' Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
JP:
One day, the evil spirit answered them, 'Jesus I know and Paul I know about, but who are you?' Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding." And so, this is in your Bible, and, let's just talk about what's going on real quick.
JP:
There's these seven brothers, and, so, you know, maybe like eighteen to, you know, like thirty-five. I don't know. They're, they're seven brothers, so you could say maybe they're spaced out every ten months, but they had a sister somewhere in there. And they're PKs. You know, their dad's the priest. Like, you know, everybody knows their dad, the Jewish priest, and they're the seven sons, and this is something that they do.
JP:
The scripture insinuates that this is kind of like... This isn't something they did on this day. This is like a practice of theirs. They're, they are exorcists. And so they wake up one morning, and they kind of stack hands, and they're like, "Hey, we're gonna go. Man, we're, let's go do what we do." And they find a, a man.
JP:
These seven brothers find a man who has a demon, and they say, "In the name of Jesus, who Paul preaches about, come out." A-and, and the demon, like, looks like, "What? What are y'all talking about?" And they're like, "In the name of Jesus, who Paul preaches about, come out." And then the demon's like, "Say, man, uh, Jesus I know, and Paul I've heard of, but, but who are you guys?"
JP:
And he grabs one of them, and he, and he just like, just beats the fool out of him. I mean, just like punches him repeatedly in the face as the... And then the other brothers jump. They're like, "No, that's my brother." And so the, the big one comes up, and he picks him up over his head and throws him through the window, and then two others kind of come a-and try to grab his arms, and he, and he lifts them up, and he, like, bangs them together, and he rips off their clothes, okay?
JP:
They don't have clothes now. So he just strips them down naked. And I don't know why they're bleeding. I don't know if it's just 'cause he, like, hit them so hard he cut their eye socket or he took shards of glass from the window and just started slicing them up. I, I don't know. But now, now all seven of them are, like, bleeding.
JP:
Like, that's the description of them. They're bleeding, and they don't have clothes on anymore. And, uh, and so we read that, and now we have to answer the question, okay, does that happen today? Like, is that still a thing? Is there, is there a chance that, you know, I'm gonna come up against that and, um- And I would say something like that happened today, you know?
JP:
And, and I don't know how many times this happened. I don't know if it happened before and the day after, or if it happened 42 times in that day, and we have this one documented historical account that somebody saw this and wrote it down. but I, I don't think this was the only time something like this happened, and I think the Holy Spirit had somebody write it down and preserved it, you know, for a couple thousand years so that we would read it today and be like, "Oh, this kinds of stuff happens."
JOEL: And in fact, I saw this... I saw a video this morning, it's crazy, I saw it this morning, where this, this lady, uh, you know, said, "I, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus," and this person who had a gun, who pulled a gun on her and shot her in the head. And I thought, "Oh, man. I bet you that was demonic." Uh, you know? I, I bet that was kind of like what's happening in Seven Sons of Sceva.
JP:
Okay? So that's my effort to try and scare you a little more before I tell you this. In, in Luke 10 verse 18, Jesus said... Well, well, I'll just say the 72 i- in verse 17, the 72 returned, 72 disciples who went out, they returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." And Jesus says, "Yeah, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
JP:
I remember when that happened. And I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions, and to overcome all..." It says, is it where it says, "All the power of the enemy"? And then it says, "Nothing will harm you." Okay? "So I've given you the authority to overcome all the power of the enemy. Nothing will harm you.
JP:
However, do not rejoice that spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven," or in the book of life. Okay, so what is he saying there? Well, we go back to Acts 19, and what was the predicament of the Seven Sons of Sceva? Their name was not written in the book of life. They're talking about a Jesus they don't know personally.
JP:
Only thing, believer, what, what you need to do first and foremost is a John 15, "Remain in me." If you know Christ, if you know him and he knows you, and you spend time with him, right? Y- you need to know all authority under heaven and on earth has been entrusted to you to overcome all kinds of evil as you walk in the Spirit.
JP:
Second Corinthians 4:4, "Satan is the lowercase G god of this world." First John 4:4, "Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world." And I'll just add the word infinitely greater. "Infinitely greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world." And so as you walk in right relationship with Christ, you are protected by Christ himself, and you have all authority.
JP:
"As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will not fear for you are with me. Your rod and your staff, they comfort me." And so you just have to remember that. And your g- the greatest fear, I would say, you know, you know, concern is to make sure you're in right relationship with Christ, the right relationship with God through his son, Jesus Christ, that you've trusted fully upon his death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins.
JP:
And if you have, then walk in the victory of Christ and know you have all authority to overcome the enemy.
JOEL:
That's so good, JP. you know, I would, uh, take us to, uh, Colossians 2:13. and I'll just read this. It says, "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins." And I just wanna pause and just point out the tensing of that verse. Uh, it's talking about past tense, you were dead, and now you are alive. And, and you and I, those of us that have given our allegiance to King Jesus, we are passive participants of a divine action that was done for us.
JOEL:
And I do- just wanna pause, and it's not beyond me to know that there- those that are listening, that are skeptics and are not sure, and, and who knows why they came onto the episode. They saw a title, they're interested in spiritual warfare, they have heard of JP, they, you know, whatever. And, and, and, and you're wondering like, "Oh my gosh, I, I have this fear of God."
JOEL:
And I just want to emphasize what JP has said to you that, there's a legitimacy for fear if you are not, uh, in the household of God, if you've not given your allegiance to King Jesus. And I would just say, man, this is a great opportunity wherever you are, driving, sitting, talking on a walk, like wherever you are, to give your allegiance to King Jesus.
JOEL:
And it's simple as that. Like, "Jesus, I repent of my sin, I confess of it, and I accept you as king over my life." And then I would want you to find a local church as fast as you can and let them know what you did, and just participate in that. So that's the first part. But then the second part for all of us as believers, look at verse 14, "Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us, He has taken it away, nailing it to the cross."
JOEL:
And verse 15, "Having disarmed the powers and the authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." And when it says that the dark powers have been disarmed, it means that their ability to blind the nations is no longer true, that, that the Gospel is powerful and effective.
JOEL:
Can the dark powers still cause evil and havoc? Of course, they still can, but their ability to eternally separate humanity from the Father is no longer possible because they can blind people, 'cause we have the Gospel now that can be proclaimed out. And I love that last part, making a public spectacle of them.
JOEL:
It's like there's something, fantasy football, JP's about to start. I don't know if you do fantasy football, Shae. I know you're a football gal. It's like I'm so hyped. I've got my draft ready. I'm like, we're-- my boys and I have been navigating who we're gonna do, and, and it's like draft, uh, for the thing, and it's like we're gonna get to the Super Bowl.
JOEL:
And I have never seen JP people lose their mind more than when their football team wins the Super Bowl. I mean, it is in the stadium, it is at, at parties, and, and it's almost as if they had the ball - ... and ran it across, and they are losing their mind, right? I just want us to point out like, man, we participate in that Like, like it's a public spectacle.
JOEL:
And so we as followers of King Jesus participate and we witness and we observe the disarming and the dethroning of these dark powers because we are under the authority and the power and the protection of Jesus. And so I think that is a thing I'd want to leave people with.
SHAE:
That's so good. Thank you guys so much for this conversation. We often say on Therapy and Theology that we're not gonna tell you necessarily what to think, but we're gonna give you a lot to think about, and I think that you guys have really done that today. So JP, thank you so much for being with us-
JP:
Thanks for having me on, guys. I love it
SHAE:
... on Therapy and Theology, and, uh, I hope that we can have you back on the show.
JP:
Me too. Me too. I'll see, I'll see you guys then. Not before then.
JOEL:
And now it's time for my favorite segment, Listener Mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's Listener Mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful and practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name.
JOEL:
We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and the hope of the gospel. And now we wanna invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministries study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thanks for investing in the life of a child. You can go to compassion.com/lysa, L-Y-S-A, to choose a child to sponsor today.
JOEL:
Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, "What should we consider when we're deciding what kind of media to let in our life, TV shows, movies, social media, et cetera? For example, are scary movies potentially an outlet of entertaining or even inviting darkness in?"
JOEL:
I think this is a really important question and very pertinent to our society and our culture today. Here's the first thing I would say. Any kind of media, any kind of content in general that would compromise your convictions in the gospel, that would steer your heart and affection away from King Jesus, are all things that we should reject and stay away from.
JOEL:
The second aspect of this is an, a question of personal spiritual maturity. You do need to use wisdom and discernment, and also gauge where you have grace and where you have opportunity, but be very well aware of the consequences that come along with that. And so for some people, you might be able to enjoy science fiction or scary movies, and for others it could be something that it actually creates fear and anxiety in your heart, and is ultimately just unhelpful for you.
JOEL:
So you want to really think through that. I wanna end with just a verse from 1 Peter 5:8. Uh, Peter says to be sober-minded, to really be aware because we have a real enemy who is prowling, who's waiting to devour us. And so we have to be careful that just because we have a liberty in an area to enjoy something, that we don't enjoy that thing to our detriment.
JOEL:
And so I would say pray, ask the Holy Spirit to give you wisdom. Also, have some good friends around you that love Jesus more than they love you, so that as you're navigating these things you're not self-deceived, the heart is deceptive of a- amongst all things, uh, and do your very best. And then also after the fact, consider what has this done to your heart?
JOEL:
What has this done to your affections? How has this impacted your mind? Uh, and allow those things to also help determine and discern your next steps moving forward.