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In this episode of 'The Exit Strategy: Your No Bullshit Guide to Divorce,' experienced attorneys Elizabeth Stevenson and Sarah Hink from New Direction Family Law discuss the vital role of parenting coordinators in high-conflict divorce situations. Learn how parenting coordinators, either attorneys or mental health professionals, are appointed to assist co-parents in making decisions and improving communication.
Discover how this essential service can help avoid prolonged court battles, reduce legal fees, and ensure the best interests of the children are prioritized. Tune in for expert insights on how to navigate co-parenting challenges effectively.
Discover how this essential service can help avoid prolonged court battles, reduce legal fees, and ensure the best interests of the children are prioritized. Tune in for expert insights on how to navigate co-parenting challenges effectively.
00:00 Introduction to the Exit Strategy
00:18 Meet the Attorneys
00:42 Understanding Parenting Coordinators
01:05 Role and Appointment of Parenting Coordinators
01:51 Challenges in Co-Parenting
03:53 Legal Implications and Court Involvement
05:03 Benefits of Parenting Coordinators
07:22 Practical Advice for Co-Parents
17:16 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Learn more about New Direction Family Law: https://newdirectionfamilylaw.com/contact-us-today/
Creators and Guests
What is Ex-it Strategy?
Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.
[00:00:00]
Welcome to the Exit Strategy. Your No Bullshit Guide to Divorce with the experienced attorneys from New Direction family law, unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to [00:00:15] victorious and from bitter to better.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Hi everyone. Elizabeth Stevenson with New Direction
Sarah J. Hink: Family Law and Sarah Hink, Elizabeth's law partner, partner in crime, also an attorney at New Direction Family Law.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: One of our, what do we have now? Six? Seven. Seven, [00:00:30] seven, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So, and still just Chris? Yeah, the man. The one man. One man, right? Yes. And
Sarah J. Hink: of the firm of the seven three of us are parenting coordinators
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Correct. And, and what might have. Parenting
Sarah J. Hink: coordinator be that, 'cause that's what we're gonna chat about today.
That's what we're gonna talk [00:00:45] about today. And you know, when I explain this to a lot of my clients, when I recommend a parenting coordinator for them, all of them are kinda like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. That'd be really helpful. So a parenting coordinator in North Carolina at least, is either gonna be an attorney or a mental health [00:01:00] professional that's gone through this course that is, will certify you pretty much to become a parenting coordinator.
Right. And the parenting coordinator is either appointed by the court or parties can agree to appointing a parenting coordinator in their case, but it's for co-parents. And it's [00:01:15] used in high conflict cases or just when the parents cannot agree on things very easily. Right. And the role of the parenting coordinator can, you know, either be to help these parties come to an agreement on issues.
So they'll talk to 'em, well, why don't you consider this? Take information, [00:01:30] help them work together to decide, or in some cases they just make that decision for them decision that they can't
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: agree.
Sarah J. Hink: Mm-Hmm.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: But it's also modeling, I think, to help them, learn to co-parent. 'cause we can't be, we're not gonna be in your life till you're 18.
Your child's 18 for the most part. Yeah. You don't want [00:01:45] that. And No. And, and so a lot of it is teaching them how to communicate. With each other. Mm-Hmm. Because a lot of times, especially if you had like a stay at home parent who did 90% of the heavy lifting, it's very, they're used to making those decisions.
Yeah. And so now [00:02:00] this person who divorced me is now telling me what we should do when he never went to a doctor's appointment or pick the kids up. Yeah. Or any of that. So it's really, and I get that. I think it's really hard to let that. Go.
Sarah J. Hink: Right.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And sometimes, and it's,
Sarah J. Hink: it's roles that you have developed [00:02:15] through your relationship and maybe they were more unspoken than not, that one person had more demanding job and the other person might do the decision making.
I know everything about their, you know, IEP at school. Correct. I, you know, manage their medications. I was the one that did this and that for the [00:02:30] children, I know more. I need to make that decision. Not him or her.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. But
Sarah J. Hink: the court at that point, court
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: doesn't look at it that way at all. No.
Sarah J. Hink: They're like, okay, I understand that they, there were different parenting roles during the relationship, but now, but we, we don't
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: have a relationship anymore.
And so things have [00:02:45] changed. And so the way you parent is gonna change. Yes. And so that's where I think a lot of the times, the conflict comes in because you do, you know, you get your back put up about who do you think you are telling me what to do.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. That or just. Personality traits, right? [00:03:00] Like you're going through a separation and you're, your ex-spouse is a narcissist, or you know, has those tendencies to wanna be just a controlling person, right?
Or a lot of times people just have feelings and unfortunately those feelings come out and wanting to control the decisions. Correct. [00:03:15] And wanting to. Have the final say, and that's just their personality. And that's probably one of the reasons why you guys got separated and divorced. Right Now, you still gotta co-parent with that person, right?
You're
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: stuck with this person till for the rest of your life, not at 18. Yeah. Because then you're gonna go to college, they're gonna graduate, they're [00:03:30] gonna get married. Gonna have babies. Mm-Hmm. So y'all are stuck for a really long time.
Sarah J. Hink: Right. And say, dad moves to Durham County and you have 50 50 custody and your child's about to start elementary school.
Well, whose address is gonna be used for school [00:03:45] purposes? Right. Right. And that's not an agreement then. What are you, how are you gonna make this decision? Well, that's
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: a problem a lot of times, you know, court orders or separation agreements. It just says joint legal, joint legal custody, which is you have to agree.
Mm-hmm. On health, education and welfare, the big [00:04:00] decisions. But then it never says, well, what happens if you can't agree? Right. So that's why people end up at court a lot is because. Somebody, they couldn't agree or somebody made a unilateral decision. Okay, well I you, we can't agree, so I'm gonna sign 'em up.
Durham County's gonna be where they go, eh, yeah, that's a contempt because [00:04:15] you didn't consult with me or we didn't agree.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And then you get to court and then the court says, okay, come on. Appoint of parenting coordinator. 'cause obviously
Sarah J. Hink: y'all can agree. Yeah, I cannot come up with
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: it. Imagine that people who have
Sarah J. Hink: divorced and broken up cannot agree.
Cannot agree. I know. Yeah. So that, you know, [00:04:30] that's a pretty simple. Example of right, the need for a parenting coordinator. But there are those cases where people just cannot even communicate with each other. I agree. On a day-to-day basis, they call it what?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You know, like parallel parenting. They. They suffer the other person at exchanges, but [00:04:45] that's about all they can tolerate at that point.
Yeah.
Sarah J. Hink: You know, where there's over communication, a lot of communication back and forth, none of it really productive. Right. You know, a topic just about, Hey, I'm five minutes late to the exchange. Turns into, it's just always
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: like you, you're always like, you know? Yeah. And then it [00:05:00] just gets off track and doesn't have anything to do with the children at all.
Sarah J. Hink: Right. So a parenting coordinator's gonna work with both parties, right. They're, you know, neutral. They're not. You know, when party's aligned or anything like that. There, it's not confidential. Hmm. So the parenting [00:05:15] coordinator, you know, will work with you. Okay. Dad feels like he should play baseball. Mom doesn't wanna do the baseball.
Trying to figure out, okay, well how are we gonna agree about this baseball thing? Oh, grades are involved. Why is he not getting good grades? Bob wants to not do that. Right. And the [00:05:30] parenting corner might ultimately make a decision where, you know, he, the child can't play baseball 'cause he has. Cs or something like that.
Right? Right. Something that you never thought a third party was gonna make a decision about your kid. Right. But if dad still signs him up for baseball, then the parenting [00:05:45] coordinator can actually file a report with a court and say, judge, you need to hear what this guy did. Right? Right. He went over my decision and he signed him up for baseball.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And so when you, when we make a decision like, okay, you can't play baseball, that's put in writing given to everybody. And it's an [00:06:00] not an order per se. Mm-Hmm. Because the judge hasn't signed up. But you gotta. Follow that as a parent, and if you don't, there's some pretty big consequences to that. Yep.
To
Sarah J. Hink: me, contempt can, uh, reallocate any kind of fees for the parenting coordinator. Correct. Typically, you split those fees 50 [00:06:15] 50. So there can be repercussions. And we've seen some cases where, you know, parenting coordinators, coordinators will actually like change a custody schedule. We have, we don't know if that's a, I mean, we all have our own, you know, feelings, whether that is right.
Something the parenting court can [00:06:30] do, you can
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: substantially change it. But you know that that does happen. And then they make a report and then you go to a hearing and the judge can modify your order.
Sarah J. Hink: Yep.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: On
Sarah J. Hink: based on your behavior on,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: so there's some big consequences to that.
Sarah J. Hink: There are. But it's also can be very helpful.
Correct. [00:06:45] And that's what I like to tell my clients. So okay, we're going to court. Or running to court, threatening to run to court, you know, every other month. Right. Well, you can't get into court for months, first of all. Right. And then you're paying your attorney's fees. But a parenting coordinator will actually cut those costs generally because you're splitting one person's fees.
Correct. [00:07:00] Who are a lot of times will be lower than your attorney's hour rate. Oh, absolutely. And you can actually get things accomplished.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Okay. Accomp, like if you go back and talk about the school issue, by the time you got, let's say that reared its head, even today, you might not get in court told.
Certainly [00:07:15] before school starts again. Mm-Hmm. I mean maybe June or July. But if you can get a parenting coordinator can make that decision for you tomorrow if need be.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And if you don't want the parenting coordinator to make a decision for you, then try to work with your other parent. Exactly. Try to work with the other parent to keep those costs, lows, communicate.[00:07:30]
And a lot of times we will give parents some books to read, recommendations to follow on communication skills. And, you know, really go into that and use that method. And it might be easier for one party than the other. And that's typically what happens in [00:07:45] cases where there's a, a parenting coordinator.
But, you know, try the parallel parenting, try to keep your communication direct Correct. And focused on the subject, the factual. Right. Keep, keep the feelings out of it.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right.
Sarah J. Hink: They have AI now where you can kind of like,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: right. And then I, [00:08:00] you know, clean. Always recommend Our Family Wizard, which a lot of people have talked about, but.
That's how the parents communicate. Mm-Hmm. And the court can see it. It's really, it's a really great device. 'cause it can do a tone, like you can type an email in Mm-Hmm. And it'll, like, you might wanna not, [00:08:15] won't say this, but you might wanna rethink how you said that and it'll, it'll give you a notice that probably this is not what you need to be sending, you know?
Yeah.
Sarah J. Hink: And if that keeps happening, if your co-parents send you very negative. Where do derogatory [00:08:30] messages and the parenting coordinators involved, there's gonna be repercussions. Right?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And they can tell you, you can communicate once a week if, unless it's an emergency, and here's what you need to talk about.
Mm-Hmm. Only, and they could put some parameters in place so it can be helpful and then you get in the habit of doing it. Mm-Hmm. I mean, our goal is [00:08:45] general. It's a one or two year appointment, and then by then you hope that they've been able to make some progress and they don't need you anymore, is what the bottom line is that we hope happens, you know?
Yeah.
Sarah J. Hink: [00:09:00] [00:09:15] [00:09:30] [00:09:45] And I tell other clients. If it's not gonna change, then it's a neutral that'll go to court and it'll be, be beneficial for your case. Right, right. Because those, there's some people with very strong personality disorders, what have you. Agreed. Agreed. And they're just really not gonna change. No. And [00:10:00] the court hears his testimony.
Your testimony, and they make a decision. A lot of times it's 50 50. Right? Because they don't spend that much time with you. Correct. And a parenting coordinator is really gonna spend a lot of time with you if it's necessary. Right. And they can see the ins and outs, they can see how. He or [00:10:15] she communicates, right?
They can, you know, see issues with the children arising from that. And then if you have this parenting coordinator that files a report goes to court, the judge is gonna listen to them most times
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: all the time. They generally
Sarah J. Hink: listen to them and follow the recommendations of parent that parenting coordinator.
Yeah, exactly. So it [00:10:30] can be a really beneficial tool in your weapon box to you know, get your case in front of a judge and have this neutral third party Right. You know, really validate what's going on. Right. '
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: cause sometimes people think you're crazy 'cause. The other person presents so well.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: [00:10:45] You know, that could possibly be happening, but then as you say, you've got this neutral third party that could say, yeah, that really is happening.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And it is detrimental to the kids. To kids. Exactly. And I think that the court should change the schedule
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So what decisions can we make? Decisions about
Sarah J. Hink: it? Well, there's [00:11:00] usually, well, there will be an order that will. Their form order has little check boxes actually. Right. So it can be anything from the diet of the children, right.
To what they wear. Right. School education, medical decisions. Uh, although generally you just follow the, [00:11:15] the physicians, the physician
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: or the treating professionals, generally the best thing. I'm not a doctor. Right. I'm not either.
Sarah J. Hink: No. Uh, and so there's a whole list of what they can and cannot not make decisions on.
And like you said before, you know. Statute, they cannot make [00:11:30] substantial changes to the court order. Right. So that would be typically, if you have a week on, week off, schedule
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: the change to every other weekend. Yeah. That's a, that's a big change. Yeah. I agree. Right. And then there's another, it's not a box, but it says other Mm-Hmm.
Really you can tailor it to [00:11:45] whatever is important. To your family. Mm-Hmm. Need. 'cause it might, the check boxes might not always do that, but, uh, you can get as simple as you want or as detailed as you want, or, or not. It's really tailored to each family, I think, and, and it's great. I love it.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And there's a, a court appointed [00:12:00] list, so if you cannot agree with the other attorney, with the other party, who your parenting coordinator's gonna be, then there's a list the judge can pick from.
Like I said before, it can be an attorney or it can be a mental health professional. Right. And they're, I think they're different styles. [00:12:15] I agree. For sure. I think the mental health professionals will be a little bit more soft with let's try to work together kumbaya or a little bit longer than attorneys.
And attorneys will eventually be like, okay, enough of this we're not doing. Yeah. We're not getting
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: anywhere, we're not making any progress or anything like that. Yeah, I agree. [00:12:30] And so high conflict cases, you can agree mm-hmm. To have a parenting court. So you can enter by consent and not really have to have a hearing, but you do have to go in front of the judge and the judge tells you.
What's going on? Mm-Hmm. And what you have to do and explains it all to [00:12:45] you and then you make an appointment with your parenting coordinator, sort of like an intake session that's separately with each other.
Sarah J. Hink: Yep. And that process can look a little different. Parenting coordinator to parenting coordinator.
Right. Some of them wanna meet with. Everyone together, some of them will meet with people separate. [00:13:00] Right. Sometimes they may talk to the children. Children, it's, other times they won't. So it really is a case by case basis. Right.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And what's a, and the point of really a parenting coordinator is one, to help you co-parent better.
Mm-Hmm. But it's also to keep you out of court. Yes. Right. Right. And [00:13:15] so if let's say you're preparing, preparing for a two day custody trial, it's gonna cost $30,000 this week. You know? Yeah. Parenting coordinator is not going. EE even touch that. I mean the, the retainers, they're not, it's not free for sure.
Mm-Hmm. But it's not that, it's [00:13:30] 35, 5,000 something. And you're splitting that cost too. Yeah. You're splitting
Sarah J. Hink: it typically 50 15. Right. Like we said before, and most all the orders, it says that the parenting coordinator, the PC can reapportion. So if we have mom who is constantly right, reaching, [00:13:45] calling, emailing the parenting coordinator with issues that.
Really aren't an issue or shouldn't be an issue, right? The parenting coordinator can say, you know what, on this last month bill, I'm actually gonna have mom pay for 70% of it. Right? And dad's gonna pay 30. Right?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: So, I mean, I think that's fair and [00:14:00] reasonable and it gets people's attention and they stop.
What you hope is that they stop doing that.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. So, uh, if you're listening out there and have an attorney, if this is something you wanna learn more about. We have information on our page. But speak to your attorney about filing a motion. You can set the motion for hearing, but do know [00:14:15] that a court or the judge can actually do it without a motion pending?
Correct. So you can be in the middle of a two day custody trial and ask for one, or the judge can just say, Hey, y'all are fighting so much. This is high conflict. I'm concerned about the children because of the amount of conflict [00:14:30] in this case. Right. So I'm gonna appoint one on my own accord. Right. So
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: the judge
Sarah J. Hink: can do that.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. Which is good. I mean, that's their job is to make sure. Yeah. I mean, they're. The, the standard is the best interest of the child. And you know, if you're in court for three days and you can't, that, that means you can't agree on something. So [00:14:45] almost by definition, you were a high conflict. Right.
Sarah J. Hink: Or even like on the, on the temporary orders.
Right. When you're in there for only an hour or two and like, that's all the time the judge has to decide your case. Right? If there's communi, I like to show the communication between the parties always. So the judge gets a feel of all, feel of [00:15:00] what it's like. Agreed. The communication is right. And at that point you can say, okay, well this person is obviously.
Controlling and manipulative and just bashing this other parent. Right? And even if the children don't see that communication, it's gonna have an effect
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: on them, still has an effect on 'em. I agree with
Sarah J. Hink: that. Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: [00:15:15] So I agree with that. And so, we're, I'm a parent coordinator. You're a parent coordinator, Kelly McGonal in our office as a parent coordinator.
Mm-Hmm. But then again and you have to think about personalities of your clients too. Mm-Hmm. And we all know each other, so we know [00:15:30] what somebody's personality is like. Mm-Hmm. So, uh, I always think about that too, when I suggest a parenting coordinator for somebody
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And even goes down to genders.
Like, do you think he'll respond better to a man? Right. Exactly. Or a woman. Right. And, uh, we probably have. [00:15:45] 80 to 20% of like, most of them are women in our area. And if you're another attorney out there listening, tell us something out
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: there. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, if you're an attorney listening, really we're, we're desperate for them.
Mm-Hmm. People really, really, I think [00:16:00] it's a need. It's sort of like it's a tool that people really, really are desperate to have sometimes. Yeah. And I
Sarah J. Hink: will also let people know that it's very taxing on the parenting coordinator. I mean, there's. We need more parenting coordinators and so many of them are burnt out right from, [00:16:15] you know, these kind of cases.
Uh, and that makes sense. If they're high conflict, they're fighting with each other, they're gonna fight with you. Right. And I've seen some, you know, examples of pages and pages and pages of one email being sent to a parenting coordinator, [00:16:30] and that happens three or four times a week and you're having to spend your time reading that.
Right. You know, working with these. People who probably have some mental health issues.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And that's a fine line to do that as a parent coordinator. As you said, we're a neutral third party, but sometimes the party [00:16:45] feels like you're aligned with the other party and that makes our job just sort of doubly difficult, I think.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And you're not aligned with them, but maybe you, you know, we make a decision you don't like. That's mean
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: we're aligned with them. But again, exactly. Our goal is the best interest of the child too. That's where our focus [00:17:00] is right for them and trying
Sarah J. Hink: to help. People learn to communicate
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Correct.
Sarah J. Hink: In a healthy manner.
Right. That's what the children need too. Right, right. Because I can't imagine what these parents go home and say to their kids, even if it's just accidental, it flies outta their mouth. Like, oh, your mom is such a, you know, correct bitch. Or something like that. Right. And [00:17:15] it's like,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: what are you doing? Right?
But we're welcome. You're welcome to go online in our website, new direction, family law.com. Call us. We can have an initial consultation with us and talk about. If this is something that you think you need, we can walk you through that. Mm-Hmm. And talk about how the process is and [00:17:30] filing the motion and that sort of thing.
And you can agree to consent and enter into it with the other. I've done like three of those recently. I mean, yeah. Which
Sarah J. Hink: is really good. Yeah, it's very beneficial, especially given how backed up our courts are. I agree. I mean, you have a problem with dad. Well, you're not gonna get into court [00:17:45] about it for not gonna happen.
Three to six months gonna not gonna happen, so, so let's see if we can get something accomplished now. Right. So.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Give us a call, give us a ring, come see us, talk about parenting coordinator and we'll see if we can, what we can do and help your family. I know it's
Sarah J. Hink: scary to have like a third person involved in your parenting, [00:18:00] but sometimes you gotta trust the process sometimes.
Yeah. Ain't that some shit? Some shit.