The DC Beer Show

In this episode of the DC Beer Show, the hosts discuss the upcoming Wanderland event organized by the Brewers Association of Maryland, emphasizing the importance of supporting local breweries and fostering a family-friendly environment. They examine the changing trends in craft beer consumption, the role of music and entertainment at events, and the legislative hurdles faced by Maryland breweries. The discussion also includes personal beer preferences and the excitement around local craft alcohol initiatives.
https://wanderlandmd.com

  • Wanderland is a new event for the Brewers Association of Maryland.
  • The event will feature about 30 Maryland breweries, wineries, and distilleries.
  • The focus is on promoting local makers and encouraging visits to their establishments.
  • The event is designed to be family-friendly, catering to changing consumer habits.
  • Music and entertainment will play a significant role at Wanderland.
  • The 'Make Mine a Maryland' campaign aims to unite Maryland's craft alcohol sectors.
  • Legislation around beer sales in grocery stores remains a complex issue.
  • Direct-to-consumer shipping for breweries is not as widely adopted as expected.
  • Personal beer preferences vary, with a focus on unique and local offerings.
  • The hosts express excitement for the Wanderland event and its potential impact.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Brandy Holder
This southern girl got a late start in the beer world, but with such a bold and intoxicating personality behind the name, booze was destined to be a part of her endeavors.
Host
Jacob Berg
Jake’s beer education began when his dad brought home a 6-pack of Brooklyn Lager in the mid-90s. It was love at first sip.
Host
Mike Stein
Michael Stein is President of Lost Lagers, Washington, DC’s premier beverage research firm. His historic beers have been served at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History and the Polish Ambassador’s residence.
Producer
Richard Fawal
President of DC Beer Media LLC and Publisher of DCBeer.com and The DC Beer Show

What is The DC Beer Show?

The official podcast of DCBeer.com! Everything you need to know about the people, places, and brews that make the DMV America’s best beer scene, including the best local places for eats, brews, trivia, live music, and more! Learn about the latest trends in craft beer – from the beers, to the breweries, to the business – from the editors of DC Beer.

Jake (00:06)
Welcome everybody to the DC Beer Show. We are at DC Beer across social media. Brandy, what are you sipping on this lovely evening?

Brandy Holder (00:14)
Hey Jake, I am actually about to crack open, you ready for it? Denizans Born Bohemian, it's their Czech pills and ⁓ we'll talk about why I'm drinking Denizans here in a few Mr. Stein, what are you drinking? Do you have a Stein tonight? Please say you have a Stein. Damn it.

Jon Zerivitz (00:15)
I am actually about to crack open.

Mike Stein (00:33)
Very close, very close.

I've got a nonic or a nonic pint glass ⁓ full of Port City's derecho lager. I was there last week and derecho lager comes in a nonic in the tap room. So I decided to replicate the experience at home. ⁓ I have to say out of 13 years, derecho was named after derecho storm in 2012. This is the best it's tasting. ⁓

Brandy Holder (01:00)
It's really good.

Mike Stein (01:01)
downright delightful. ⁓ Jake, what are you enjoying this evening?

Jake (01:05)
I have a beer neither here nor there, but from the third coast of the Great Lakes. I am drinking one of the classics I try to revisit every so often. It is Bell's Two-Hearted. ⁓ Tastes like fall. ⁓ Got a nice, tiny kick of centennial, some crystal caramel malts to it. Delightful. Get you some.

Kelly Dudek from the Brewers Association of Maryland. What are you drinking this evening?

Kelly Dudeck (01:29)
Ooh, I'm sitting here trying to decide if I'm going to lie and say what I just had with dinner because currently I'm drinking a cup of tea. But with dinner, I had Sierra Nevada's Oktoberfest just because the collab this year is so good and it's time and it's delicious.

Jake (01:49)
John Zervis of the Maryland, the Brewers Association of Maryland, and the employee-owned Union Craft Brewing. What are you drinking this evening?

Jon Zerivitz (01:57)
If I was drinking this evening, I would be drinking a crispy Zadie's lager.

Jake (02:01)
Well done, well done. So as you may have noticed, we have two of the mines and beers behind the Brewers Association of Maryland on the show tonight, as well as Craft and Cultivate, sort of like the marketing events wing of things. We're doing this for a couple of reasons. The first of which is coming up in just a couple of days, and that's Wanderland.

Kelly, you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Kelly Dudeck (02:31)
Sure, this is a brand new event for the Brewers Association of Maryland, which any of you in the event world knows that that takes a whole lot to stand up a brand new event. ⁓ This is gonna be this Saturday, October 4th at Symphony Woods at Merriweather in Columbia. And not only do we have about 30 Maryland breweries there, but we also have ⁓ wineries and distilleries and cideries.

⁓ We wanted to loop everyone into this event. We changed a few things this time around. ⁓ One, we were dividing the whole thing into regions. So we have Maryland's five regions, the Eastern Shore, the Western, ⁓ Southern Maryland, the Capital Region and the Central Region. And we're really encouraging people to sort of wander through the woods and discover these different regions.

And that was really intentional on our part because we're hearing from a lot of our breweries and our wineries and distillers that what's most important to them right now is getting people to visit them. You know, it used to be legislation. This is, this is a shift for sure that it is more about promotion and getting people to come and visit them. And so we've heard in the past, you know, when we have our Maryland craft beer festival in Frederick or our Baltimore craft beer festival in Baltimore that

Some of our makers who are coming from far away didn't always see the value in that because it wasn't necessarily translating to consumers. ⁓ But if we can build it so that we're showing that these are destinations, it's worth a day trip or an overnight to visit all of these wonderful makers there. We're hoping that we can convince people that it's worth seeking out and traveling a bit and exploring Maryland to find.

to find our makers. So we're excited about it. It's also one of our first family friendly events we've ever done. So I think it's no secret to all of you guys that the event world has changed. And so we're trying to meet people wherever they are.

Brandy Holder (04:39)
Kelly, I wanna jump in and say when I went on the Wanderland's website for the tickets and information, what I found the most refreshing actually was that you broke it up into regions because there are a lot of breweries in Maryland, there used to be more obviously, but it's visually for visual people like me, it's easier.

to say, my gosh, yeah, like, so I know Lyin' I love Jamie, shout out to my girl, ⁓ but knowing what's near where she is and then knowing what's over here in this part of Maryland, because Maryland is bigger than I always think that it is, and I'm like, where the hell am I in Maryland? How am I below DC but still in Maryland? So like, this was really cool the way you kind of divided the, not divided, but like,

organized the breweries and distilleries and offerings and I visually enjoy that. So I'm looking forward to go around and discovering what's near each other and like the camaraderie amongst even that little section of people, right? So well done. What made you decide to do that really?

Kelly Dudeck (05:52)
One, was the feedback from lot of our guys about like, they just want more reason to attend events, but also like ⁓ our Cultivate and Craft arm and the other side, we're making deeper connections with our tourism partners and our DMOs. And they are really seeing the value in craft alcohol. And it was a good way to partner, work together and try to build tourism around craft alcohol.

Brandy Holder (06:21)
we do that on DC Beer. We have our beer trails. And it's really helpful. You go on the website and you want to go to Ivy City or, well, Ivy City, sadly, very single now with other half. you go to like Denison's is over there and like with streetcar.

⁓ So it's for visual people, it's very, very enjoyable. So well done. I think that's a great addition to the event. And it's exciting because this is a new event. I'm jazz. Like we're so excited about it.

Mike Stein (06:56)
Yeah. It's a good point you bring up, Kelly, about ⁓ live events and in-person happenings at the brewery, at the winery, at the cidery, at the farm. ⁓ Tell us a little bit about the decision ⁓ to have this festival. ⁓ And then specifically with ⁓ the reworking or changing of Love Thy Beer, how did you come about?

Jon Zerivitz (06:56)
We are too.

Kelly Dudeck (06:57)
Yeah, so do we.

Mike Stein (07:22)
to hopefully offer like a more family friendly festival, a festival that really brings people out in person to see all these makers from this pretty vast and diverse area, you know, throughout Maryland.

Kelly Dudeck (07:33)
Yeah, I wish I could say that all of this was super strategic and we knew exactly what we were doing. But honestly, I think you all know that the event world and drinking habits are changing so much. And no one, as far as we can tell, has really been able to put a finger on what that is. It seems to be a real variety of things. ⁓ One of those things, ⁓ you know, we learned that

We thought people were drinking less and I think people are drinking less, people also seem to be drinking across the boat, you know, a wider variety of things. So beer loyalist may not still be beer loyalist, but drinking a little wine and a drink, a little bit of spirits and throwing in some NA options, you know, from time to time. So we really wanted to build something that, you know, catered to that.

And then the family part, you know, that's important too. Beer has notoriously been, let's just say 40 year old men, you know, for the most part. And that audience is changing. We're aging, we're bringing new people in. ⁓ And the weekends are packed for a lot of adults with activities for their kids or trying to keep their kids busy. So.

We really wanted to build something that made it family friendly. And the other part about Wanderland is it is very different from if you guys have been to Maryland Craft Beer Festival, which we love and it's an institution. You know, it's been around for a decade now, but it is your quintessential beer festival where you're kind of shoulder to shoulder and you're trying to get to every tent. ⁓ this one's just different. It's spread out. There's a lot of room.

We are encouraging people to bring chairs and blankets and just hang out. There's a lot of different activities. There's scavenger hunts for the kids. There's just, it's a lot of fun. We're just hoping that this will speak to people. It's a gamble, honestly. ⁓ And then Love Thy Beer, that one, John and I have just actually been talking about that a little bit recently because...

Those numbers were starting to fall the last two years, but we've been hearing from a lot of people how much they love it. So John and I are trying to figure out how we can bring that back maybe a little differently. ⁓ But we love the concept and we know that we have loyal consumers that love that event. But it's honestly a month to month with these events.

Brandy Holder (10:03)
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up Love Thy Beer, because we were sad to see that it wasn't happening this past year. We love that event. hopefully you can figure out a way to bring it back, because it was more of like a brewers event. When I talked to a bunch of the folks who, owners of breweries and brewers who were disappointed that it wasn't happening this past year, they were like,

That was really one of the events that I got to hang out with other brewers. And it was more of a camaraderie thing. And I know that's not good, great for ticket sales, because you want the public to come. But it's more, think maybe that was just good for the brewers and owner's souls, just to get together and be in such a space. I say tight space, not really a tight space, but a more cozy space than the spread out woods that we're about to be in on Saturday.

And I think really that event from what I had heard feedback from was more for, you know, hanging out with the other breweries and brewers because they don't really get to do that very often because they're busy brewing beer. So, you know, that's probably I assume why tickets were lower. I don't know. And plus people aren't drinking as much because, you know, life is life I guess. But John, we haven't heard from you much. What are we most excited about? Where are you going to be on Saturday?

Kelly Dudeck (11:17)
Life is life.

Jon Zerivitz (11:24)
⁓

I'll be there ⁓ running around with a chicken and then I put my head cut off. I'm super excited for the, for Wanderland. We really tried to like break the template of a beer festival on this one. And I really feel like we've leveled up not only with the venue, but with the quality of the music. I'm a music guy and I'm super excited for the bands that we have playing on the chrysalis, which is like this amazing architectural stage.

⁓ And the way that we broke it up into regions, just like, you know, that appeals to you, really appeals to me too. And I think to all of our brewers and to the guests to be able to understand where everything is in the state and to be proud of the vastness of Maryland and all that it has to offer. I think we're really putting that on display in a really unique way. You know, and the fact that it's really a choose your own adventure. You don't have to just

you know, walk around a field in a square and stand in line, ⁓ you know, for two ounces of beer, ⁓ you can really meander back and forth from the stage and see like a real show. can go to the, we have a cheese pairing tent. So, you know, you can grab a, you can grab a stout and then walk into the cheese pairing tent and say, Hey, what cheese pairs well with ⁓ stout? And that will be there for you. ⁓ Even the food trucks.

Brandy Holder (12:24)
Yeah.

You had me at cheese.

Jon Zerivitz (12:50)
Yeah,

of course. Who doesn't love cheese? ⁓ And even the food trucks, like they were very intentional about making sure we had global flavors and, not just like two or three barbecue trucks. And, you know, it's I think it's it really has a lot to offer a lot of different people. And we know from the feedback we've gotten on lots of events that you can't rinse and repeat the same concepts over and over again.

So hopefully this is something fresh and original and super fun for everybody that comes out.

Jake (13:24)
So a little bit about the music because over the years, Union has thrown these anniversary parties with some great gets. And to me, Lee Fields is a great get. ⁓ That seems like something that Union might do. Was that your doing?

Jon Zerivitz (13:43)
I think I had some significant influence on, mean, Kelly loves music too, and the two of us really vibe over music all the time. So she's a great partner to have, but ⁓ yeah, you know, I'm taking a lot of what I learned from throwing shows at Union, ⁓ trying to get acts that people may not be super aware of, but that I know they'll love if they, you know, if they come out and see them. ⁓ So yeah, we just, did try to.

sort of translate that onto this festival.

Brandy Holder (14:14)
Realistically, I mean, there's a lot of vendors, know, there's a lot of beer and wine and spirits on Saturday. And if it's so sprawled out, what is the likelihood that everyone's going to be able to, because I can't really picture it. I'm just picturing like being in the woods. And, you know, what's the likelihood that everyone's going to be able to get to all the stuff that they

Kelly Dudeck (14:33)
you

Brandy Holder (14:41)
you know, like all the beer options. don't, I'm just having a hard time visualizing the space, so.

Jon Zerivitz (14:48)
Well, Symphony Woods is really a park setting. know, it's not like you're in chaotic, crowded, dense woods. So, you know, it's big, beautiful trees, well spaced apart. You're under the canopy. There's paved trails that, you know, wander, meander through the trees. So the regions will be set up along the path. ⁓ And ⁓ like we say, the path is the party. So if you follow the path, you're going to hit every region.

Brandy Holder (14:56)
Okay.

Jon Zerivitz (15:17)
⁓ it will not be difficult to find your favorite brewer or to hit them all if you focus on that for the day.

Kelly Dudeck (15:24)
If we do some simple math, right, it's a five hour event, there's 50 craft alcohol vendors, you gotta hit 10 an hour.

Brandy Holder (15:30)
Boom, challenge accepted.

Mike Stein (15:32)
Ambitious we we have

Kelly Dudeck (15:32)
Yeah.

Jon Zerivitz (15:32)
There you go.

Mike Stein (15:33)
to be we have to say ⁓ all things in moderation even moderation But don't feel bad if you can't hit them all many of them are open 52 weeks out of the year So should you want to come back for more cheese after you're all cheesed out and maybe pour You know pair a cider or some wine with cheese. That's also an option come ⁓ November December or even January

Jon Zerivitz (15:44)
That's right.

You

know, one of the cool aspects that we're bringing to this that we've never done before, and this kind of plays into having such great bands on the stage, is that we want people to go to the stage and sit there for an entire set. And so we are setting up a BAM bar where you can purchase full pours so that, you you don't have to walk over there with two ounces of beer and be done in a second and then want to leave the stage. So, you know,

sample your way around the festival, find your favorite beer, come buy a pint at the BAM tent, and then go see a set.

Kelly Dudeck (16:34)
Yeah, and we're highlighting the beers that were recently brewed with Bear Branch grains. So they're all local grains, malts. ⁓ And a lot of our vendors, breweries, wineries, and distillers will also be selling full pours. So, you know, for the people who know who they like already, we want them to grab a full one and sit down and relax a little bit.

Mike Stein (16:34)
Yeah, it's a good.

Wonderful.

Yeah, I was going to say the, ability to sit down for a whole set and have a full beer or full pour glass of wine, whatever, ⁓ is way more appealing to me than a band. actually want to sit through a set for, but I got to go back to get my like samples that were included. And then I'm having 31 ounce pours instead of just two pints at two different sets. So that makes total sense to me.

Brandy Holder (16:56)
That's really cool.

Jon Zerivitz (17:15)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Dudeck (17:17)
In reality,

John and I were building an event for ourselves because we don't want to stand in line for

Mike Stein (17:21)
You do. ⁓ But I love that. I know. I know you say this with a smile

Jon Zerivitz (17:22)
Yeah

Mike Stein (17:27)
on your face, but thinking about how you may be in the audience enables you to think about others in the audience. Right. ⁓ Ironically enough, I was at a farm this ⁓ weekend in Prince George's County, and ⁓ it was like a work event where they had, you know, free free beer and alcohol under the work tent. But then

We were out and there was like no shade at all on the farm. And sure enough, there was a pop-up tent and it was crooked crab. And it was like the only craft beer on the, you know, like 300 acre, a lot of Halloween pumpkin painting and hayrides. And then the other, you know, a hundred acres, like where the farming actually takes place. But I found this tent and they had draft beer. was so ice cold. It was like the perfect thing. And I was like, I don't want free beer and free wine. I would just want draft beer. Just one like that's perfect on a.

You know, we hit like 82 in Prince George's County. was crazy. But anyways, so I love what you guys have done with the format for this festival. Is there any other interesting things that listeners might not know just by, you know, clicking through the site that that you could inform us on?

Jon Zerivitz (18:32)
There is one more thing that we are debuting at the festival ⁓ and that is a really exciting initiative ⁓ that Cultivate and Craft is fostering on behalf of all three guilds, the Maryland Distillers Guild, Maryland Wine, and the Brewers Association. ⁓ It's a campaign called Make Mine a Maryland and the whole concept is

one to unite all three sectors of Maryland craft alcohol with the rallying cry of make mine a Maryland. We think it might be the first of its kind in the country. We think Maryland is possibly the first state to ever really bring their three alcohol sectors, craft alcohol sectors together under one banner. And, you know, we're not trying to encourage people to start drinking.

But we know that Marylanders are already obsessed with Maryland and the flag and, you know, it's our culture in the state, but they don't necessarily choose to spend their money on Maryland made products at the time of purchase. And so this is a reminder to keep Maryland, you know, in your conscience and

And and it would regardless of what your drink of choice is your brand your style Maryland has something probably better and and you know, and it's just a it's just a little trip away to you know to go visit the manufacturer ⁓ So we have a campaign that's going to sort of soft launch at Wanderland There's going to be a make mine of Maryland tent with merch

⁓ and information about how to access the campaign. And then ⁓ in a few days beyond Wanderland, we're going to launch the whole campaign and you'll see it everywhere from digital ⁓ to real life activations, point of sale, retail, taprooms, everywhere. So we're really excited about that. Yeah. Thank you.

Brandy Holder (20:38)
I love that. That's

kind of cool. And it's catchy. It's catchy. Yeah. Nice. I have a question, and I'm not sure if you're going to be able to answer this properly or how you're going to answer this. So I'm curious. Between the Frederick Craft Beer Festival, which we always go to, we love that event.

Jon Zerivitz (20:45)
That's the point. It's gotta be memorable.

Kelly Dudeck (20:48)
then can.

Brandy Holder (21:04)
and the Baltimore Craft Beer Festival, what made you decide to nix the Baltimore one and keep the Frederick one? Because I mean, they're both very similar, in my opinion. ⁓ But yeah, I'm curious.

Kelly Dudeck (21:24)
Yeah, it wasn't an easy decision, but ⁓ the numbers speak. our Frederick Festival has, it's actually been at the Creek for about 10 years, but it existed, you know, five or six years before that. So we almost have a bit of a cult following for the Frederick Beer Festival and we don't have to put a ton into promoting that. Baltimore Craft on the other hand,

We have been trying to get that on par with Maryland craft for years now. And I know that people attend it think that it seems to be very successful. And in a lot of ways it is, but financially it hasn't been. It is a more expensive event for us to put on in Baltimore. We have never hit the numbers that we need for it to be profitable and sustainable. And so.

It was a really hard decision because we love Baltimore. ⁓ know, both John and I have lived in Baltimore, worked in Baltimore, and we want to bring events there. But when it comes down to the association, you know, we're a nonprofit and we really rely on this funding to get a lot done. Like this campaign that we just talked about, you know, like our legislative efforts. There's a lot that goes into that funding goes along.

And so we really needed to think about that strategically. And we haven't officially said that Baltimore Craft Beer Festival is done, but we wanted to try something new this year and see if that resonated more with people.

Brandy Holder (22:58)
Cool, that makes sense because the Frederick one is slammed. mean, this past year, I didn't even get to a whole section. I didn't get to the other side of the creek. I just stayed on the food trucky side on this side of the bridge. And I was like, I didn't even get over there. I didn't even see half my friends there that day because there was so many people and just going back and forth by the creek. So it makes sense.

Kelly Dudeck (23:19)
Yeah.

Brandy Holder (23:25)
I bet this Wanderland event is going to really hit it off. And everyone seemed to be promoting it very well. I see denizens constantly pushing it ⁓ and the local breweries. So I think it's going to be great. I think everyone's excited about it.

Jon Zerivitz (23:35)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Dudeck (23:39)
I hope so. are. Yeah. And the Frederick one, we, and I keep saying like, it was a banner year and we did do a few different things, but we're not sure what exactly set it off this last year, but it was one of the best years we've had in a long time. And to say that, yeah, to say that in the midst of this weird event time where things just aren't, you know, going so well, we're very, very thankful for the Maryland Craft Beer Festival.

Brandy Holder (23:54)
It was crazy.

I like the Mardi Gras band that was there walking around. That was dope. Yeah.

Jon Zerivitz (24:09)
That was.

Kelly Dudeck (24:10)
That was a little

⁓ surprise we kept under our hats. And for Wanderland, we have a couple more little surprises under our hats that we haven't told anyone about. So come visit us.

Jon Zerivitz (24:22)
It's under my hat.

Jake (24:24)
mean, one thing that's gonna happen is someone is gonna be dressed up in the Maryland flag, all old bay decked out, and they're gonna see, make mine a Maryland, and their heads are gonna explode. They're gonna have like a giant ear to ear grin. And I think that will be pretty exciting.

Jon Zerivitz (24:36)
Yep.

Kelly Dudeck (24:42)
Jake, I can't tell you how many times we've come up with like different characters for someone to dress up as and it's always supposed to be Hugh Sisson. Everyone's like, it's going to be Hugh Sisson. It seems he's gonna do it.

Mike Stein (24:55)
Yeah.

Jake (24:55)
One thing that I really like seeing from you guys, that's BAM, the Brewers Association of Maryland, is like now every Thursday, every Friday, I go on your social media and you've got a rundown of just like kind of local Maryland brewery events. And I think that's a very, very cool idea. I haven't really, I haven't seen other guilds, other associations doing that. And so as a, know, aficionado from the consumer standpoint,

It's really cool to see that.

Jon Zerivitz (25:26)
Thanks, yeah. Yeah, that was part of our social media strategy for last year carried on to this year. You know, it's just, we're just listening to our members and they want to be promoted ⁓ and that's kind of at the top of our priority list. So telling their stories and showing people what they have going on, ⁓ you know, every weekend at these various venues is really important. So we're just, you know.

doing our best to help them out.

Mike Stein (25:56)
Yeah. Um, I have a bit of a wild card question for you, Kelly and John and jump ball. Uh, but you know, I'm, I'm a beer historian. I'm a huge beer nerd. Um, looking at Baltimore's history, we know some breweries that were born. We're talking pre-prohibition. So a hundred or closer to 150 years ago. Um, you know, uh, there was one that was, that was born in, um, 1887 and they brewed 1500 barrels of beer.

In 1901, they were brewing 80,000 barrels of beer. Do you ever foresee a time where not necessarily Baltimore, but breweries around Maryland are eclipsing 20, 40, 80, a hundred thousand barrels of beer, or are they going to need to be a hard seltzer, a hemp THRTD, a Beyond Beer, shall we say, a producer to come up to those sort of heady days that are in the

way past of Baltimore and Maryland's history.

Brandy Holder (26:54)
That's a great question.

Jon Zerivitz (26:55)
Well, I would say that if you would ask me that question five, six, seven years ago, I would say absolutely one of us is gonna get there for sure. ⁓ Asking me that today, I'd say that is highly unlikely. ⁓ And I don't even think anybody's gonna do it with an alternative beverage either. ⁓ I think if you are making craft beverages,

⁓ You're gonna stay, you're gonna stay craft. You're gonna stay small and independent. ⁓ And it's gonna be much more about bringing people to your unique venue where you offer a unique experience for people and, you know, are proving your value in ways beyond the product that you make. And that's how you're gonna sustain yourself. So. ⁓

You know, I think those days of the hundred thousand barrel brew, you know, independent brewery, ⁓ I'm sorry to say, I just don't, I don't see it happening.

Kelly Dudeck (28:00)
Yeah, I would agree. And Mike, I actually come from an agricultural background. So ⁓ we've seen this with farmers over the years as well and like learning to diversify the same thing with craft alcohol. And we work with a lot of in-plannings, which we still have, believe it or not. We have a lot of people planning to open their doors. But it used to be that if they were planning a five barrel system, we would say you

definitely need to up that to seven or if they were planning seven we were telling them to up it to ten because if you had a decent product people were you were gonna sell out like that that was what it was like five years ago and It's just different now, you know, it's a little bit more niche. People are looking for specialty ⁓ Beers and it's also becoming a little bit more hyper local I do think there is still space for more breweries because

Not everyone has a local ⁓ pub, a local brewery, but what they're offering and the amount that they're offering has definitely changed. And with all the hemp-derived beverages and the RTDs and the NA's, there isn't enough space on the shelves for all of this stuff. So it does seem to be a little bit more streamlined right now, but who knows what it'll be like five or 10 years from now.

Jake (29:21)
Speaking of five or 10 years from now, there is a legislative component to what BAM does. I want to talk just a little bit about Annapolis with regards to two pieces of legislation. One is beer and grocery stores in Maryland, and the other is direct to consumer shipping. How is that looking now versus

say six months ago, a couple years ago.

Kelly Dudeck (29:51)
I'll start with a direct to consumer shipping because there isn't that big of a story there. think, you know, we really pushed to have that during COVID because things had changed so much and we did manage to get that through. ⁓ And some of our breweries are using it, but I'll say not many of them. It's just, it's too much to ship, you know.

finding the carrier to ship it, finding the person to sign for it when it gets there. It's just, it's not becoming the vehicle that we thought it was going to be. For alcohol in grocery stores, ⁓ that's been a conversation. That's come up in Annapolis for seven years now, I believe. know, last year was the first year it got more attention because our governor weighed in a little bit on it. But for the most part,

all three associations, the breweries, the wineries, and the distilleries are agnostic on it. They do not want to take a position on it. And that's really because they all know we're probably only talking about five breweries, five wineries, five distilleries about that that would get picked up in these grocery stores. And so the majority of the industry would be left behind. ⁓ So while we

We would like to see it to be easier to buy our products in more places. That one is just, that's a little tricky.

Jake (31:19)
John, Union could be one of those five breweries. Do you have any thoughts?

Jon Zerivitz (31:23)
We We

Brandy Holder (31:24)
He just did an eye roll. You guys can't see this on the podcast.

Jon Zerivitz (31:30)
If I'm speaking as a representative of Union, ⁓ I would say we stand with the Brewers Association. If it doesn't lift up all of Maryland beer, then it doesn't matter if Union might be one of the beers that could get, one of the brands that could be on grocery store shelves. So yeah, that's where we stand on that.

Kelly Dudeck (31:53)
I would say, and Adam Benish, you the other owner of Union actually leads our legislative committee. So he has been very firm on their decision to stand with the association.

Brandy Holder (32:02)
Okay, total off subject, Kelly and then John, rando question, if you had to pick one of these three, okay, and just imagine it's the most perfectly well done of each style that you could have, okay?

⁓ A Baltic Porter, a perfectly done Creme Ale, or a perfectly done West Coast? Which one are you picking, Kelly? You had to pick one that you had to drink first, like a month. You had to commit to this.

Kelly Dudeck (32:34)
If I had to commit to one of them for a month, it would be a perfectly done cream ale. Yes.

Brandy Holder (32:38)
Yay, Kelly! Alright, John.

Jon Zerivitz (32:41)
⁓ I would probably go Baltic Porter of those three.

Brandy Holder (32:43)
⁓

nice. OK, cool. And then what's your go-to fave beers? We got to know for the guests and the listeners and me.

Kelly Dudeck (32:51)
Style wise, I can give you mine and I keep ⁓ pushing on all of our brewers to brew more of them. I love a dunkle. I want more dunkles in my life. I know that's not super, super popular. And the other is just hoppy, hoppy pails. Just more hoppy. I'm not an IPA person, but I love a hoppy lager.

Brandy Holder (32:54)
Yeah.

Mm, mm-hmm.

Nice. OK, John.

Jon Zerivitz (33:14)
⁓ My number one favorite style of beer is like a European leaning lager.

Brandy Holder (33:20)
Okay, great.

Jon Zerivitz (33:20)
You know, I like

Noble, I like Noble hops, light, light body, crispy. That's, that's, that's my sweet spot.

Brandy Holder (33:27)
You and Stein are match made in heaven.

Mike Stein (33:30)
Yep, we sure are.

it's not a Zadie, something with a little more malt character, perhaps a Dunkel. ⁓ Well, John Kelly, you have been fantastic guests. We are so excited for Wanderland. And then for the other 51 weeks of the year, make mine a Maryland. We are super pumped for this. So thank you both for joining us for this episode.

Jon Zerivitz (33:37)
Mm-mm.

Brandy Holder (33:54)
Yeah, we'll see you on Saturday.

Jon Zerivitz (33:54)
Thank you for your support.

Kelly Dudeck (33:55)
Yeah, thanks for

Jon Zerivitz (33:55)
Can't wait.

Kelly Dudeck (33:56)
having us.

Jake (33:56)
That's right. I'll say we are at DC Beer across social media, wanderlandmd.com for ticket and other information. John, Kelly, thank you so much.

Brandy Holder (34:06)
You can get a yurt.

Go get a yurt y'all.

Kelly Dudeck (34:09)
Thanks guys, thanks for your support.

Jon Zerivitz (34:11)
Thank

you. Get a yurt at Launderland.