Episode 1 - Kelly Kennedy, CEO Capital Business Development

Summary

In this episode, Ross Huart interviews Kelly Kennedy, the founder and CEO of Capital Business Development. Kelly shares his journey from working in car sales to becoming a business development manager in the oil and gas industry. He emphasizes the importance of building relationships with customers and the value of honesty and swift action when addressing challenges.

Kelly also discusses the impact of the 2015 recession and how the COVID-19 pandemic led him to start his own business. In this conversation, Kelly Kennedy and Ross Huartt discuss the importance of innovation and disruption in business development. They emphasize the need for clear goals and objectives in business development, as well as the importance of separating business development from account management. They also highlight the significance of active marketing strategies, such as cold calling, in driving business growth.

Kelly shares his experience of starting the Business Development Podcast and overcoming imposter syndrome. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the importance of setting goals, developing effective strategies, and taking action in business development.

Takeaways

• Building strong relationships with customers is crucial for long-term business success.
• Honesty and swift action are key when addressing challenges and resolving issues with customers.
• Major world events, such as recessions and pandemics, can present opportunities for entrepreneurship and business growth.
• Starting a business requires determination, perseverance, and the ability to adapt to changing circumstances. Innovation and disruption are key factors in business development.
• Clear goals and objectives are essential for effective business development.
• Separating business development from account management allows for focused and efficient growth.
• Active marketing strategies, such as cold calling, can drive business growth.
• Imposter syndrome is common but should not hold you back from taking action.

Creators & Guests

Host

Ross Huartt

What is Lessons of a CEO?

Lessons of a CEO is more than just a podcast; it’s a movement to redefine the learning landscape for ambitious individuals. Our mission is to forge a vibrant community of lifelong learners, united by a thirst for knowledge and a passion for innovation. Through engaging discussions with leading executives, entrepreneurs, and thinkers, we dive deep into the heart of leadership, uncovering the strategies, challenges, and triumphs that define their journeys.

Ross Huartt (00:06)
And welcome to the very first episode of Lessons of a CEO, the ultimate guide to the highs and lows of entrepreneurship, business and leadership straight from those who've lived it. I'm your host Ross and I've spent the last 20 years navigating the treacherous waters of startup culture and corporate leadership. This podcast is for the dreamers, the doers, the aspiring CEOs and the established leaders.

looking to push the boundaries of what's possible. Today, we're diving deep into what it truly means to take the helm of a company. Whether you're penning your first business plan on a napkin or steering a Fortune 500 company through uncharted territory, the lessons ahead are invaluable. We'll explore the gritty realities of leadership, the triumphs, the crushing defeats, and the wisdom that comes only with experience.

I'm excited to have our first guest on the show, Mr. Kelly Kennedy. A little bit about his bio. Kelly is a visionary entrepreneur and a esteemed business leader here in Alberta, renowned for his groundbreaking contributions to the field of business development. And as the founder and CEO of Capital Business Development, Kelly has propelled the company to the forefront of the industry, offering innovative solutions that drive real tangible results for his customers.

In addition to his executive role, Kelly is the creative force behind the Business Development Podcast, a critically acclaimed platform that he founded, produces and hosts. The podcast has quickly become a global phenomenon with over 111 episodes and a presence in the top 100 charts in more than 20 countries. Notably, the Business Development Podcast has received prestigious accolades, including the Best Business Podcast Award from Quill Inc.

in 2023 and the title of best Canadian professional development podcast by FeedSpot in 2024. Driven by a relentless pursuit of excellence and growth, Kelly is committed to revolutionizing traditional business practices. And through capital business development in his podcasts, he empowers professionals worldwide to embrace innovation and achieve unparalleled success. Kelly, welcome.

Kelly Kennedy (02:33)
It's an honor to be here. Wow, that's my first time on the other side of that. Yeah, I get it now. That is that is a lot. And man, it's an honor to be your number one show Ross. You're sorry, not your number one show, but your first guest.

Ross Huartt (02:38)
Right?

Yeah, no, again, one of the, I have to credit you for, you know, planting the seed after I came on your podcast. I said, you know, I think I, I really want to do this and get more of my network involved. And when I came on your show a second time the other week, which, you know, the episode hasn't been released yet. Um, you kind of held me accountable a little bit. And so, but you more than anyone saw after that podcast, how swiftly all of.

all of this in the website got established.

Kelly Kennedy (03:17)
I was impressed, impressed. I know that you've been sitting on that and just like, just waiting for that kick in the butt to make it happen.

Ross Huartt (03:27)
I did, you know, again, it's one of those, as you know, yourself, time is a hot commodity, especially when you're, you have multiple businesses, get travel a lot, have a young family. And so, but like anything, you just have to carve it out. So here we are.

Kelly Kennedy (03:41)
Totally, totally. Dude, you're going to be absolutely amazing at this. I am honoured, truly honoured to be your first guest Ross. It'll be the first of hundreds. And I already know that and lessons of a CEO is going to be ahead. I'm confident I'm going to make that prediction right now.

Ross Huartt (03:58)
Well, I laughed because I read your accolades and I was like, I want those accolades. So now I'm just going to go after. So I've been dying to host you on this. And the reason for that is you've heard me talk a lot over the last couple of hours worth of content. And it occurred to me, you know, whilst I know about your podcast, I know about your business and I'm hopeful we can work together on that front. But I don't know the story of how it came to be.

Kelly Kennedy (04:02)
Hahaha!

Ross Huartt (04:28)
the true scale and spectrum of what it does. And I think that's a good place to start for our listeners. And so for their benefit, do you want to tell us a little bit about what Capital Business Development does and what the Business Development Podcast does?

Kelly Kennedy (04:44)
Sure, sure. Before we do that, I'll actually lead you through how that came to be because I think it really does. You need to know the story of why it happened to understand why we kind of have gone down this path. I never chose business development. Business development shows me, I literally tried to run from it. And so I'll tell you, I started my life in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I actually grew up in Spruce Grove. And when I was in high school, I worked at Grove Dodge and I absolutely...

loved working on the lot. I got to drive all the brand new cars and everything. I was like 16, 17 year old punk kid. Um, but I worked there with like all my friends and we parked cars all day long and we got to learn the insides of these vehicles, like inside and out better than 90 % of the salespeople because we were in them all day long. And so I remember being 17, just about 18. And I went to the manager at the time and I said, Hey, I would absolutely love when I turn 18 to potentially sell these cars. Cause I think I know the inside of them.

better than most. And I think at this time it was around 2007. So just to give you an idea. And he goes, Kelly, big smile on his face. Absolutely not. I will not hire you at 17 or 18 to sell cars. First off, you have zero sales experience. So the answer is no. However, if you go and get some sales experience and come back, we'll have that discussion then. At that point, I'd worked there for like two or three years. So I was like, fine, then I quit.

Ross Huartt (06:11)
Nice. Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy (06:12)
And I started working at Visions Electronics in Edmonton. And yeah, I spent probably about six months there learning sales. At the time I was selling like flat screen TVs were really new and that's what I was selling at that time and kind of learn the ins and outs of that world. But that wasn't what I wanted to do. I just wanted to get enough sales experience like a go back to Grove Dodge and sell cars. And so...

I ended up back in that business. I went back after six months and I said, okay, like I'm 18. I think I was just about 19 at this point. I want my opportunity and they gave it to me. And so I started, I started selling cars essentially right at the beginning of 2008 and uh,

Ross Huartt (06:51)
I just want to point out something though, Kelly, for the listeners, because I resonate with that a lot. Well, first of all, before I forget it, I feel like there's a t -shirt to be had there. I didn't choose business development, business development chose me. Right. So that, that you can have that for your swag. Um, the other piece is the determination and attitude you just described. You know, I've got, I've got a, in, in NBC group, we've got a young leader, um, named Nicole. Um, and how she got the job was very much.

Kelly Kennedy (07:03)
Yeah.

Ha ha!

Ross Huartt (07:21)
timing wasn't right, but she was very persistent, like impressively persistent, I would say. Not annoying, but very, and I valued that because you don't get what you don't ask for. And if you don't go away and do the work and you just describe exactly that.

Kelly Kennedy (07:34)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. So obviously, I started off in car sales. I'd known these people a long time. I knew the ins and outs, and I kind of got the crash course on how you sell cars. And at that time, it was a hard sale. It wasn't easy. They ultimately wanted to close every deal that came through the door, because if they left, the odds of them coming back were quite slim. And so it was very high pressure. And I think car sales to this day is still very high pressure. And that's why I'm so proud of them.

Ross Huartt (08:00)
sure.

Kelly Kennedy (08:01)
That just wasn't for me. I really didn't like that type of relationship where it was so quickly created, get them in, get them out, and onto the next one, right? Like that was a tough world to end up in. And I think I spent about six months, eight months doing that. The recession of 2008 hit, people stopped buying cars. And I was like, you know what? This is a good time to make my exit. And so I left the car sales industry at that time, but I'd gotten the bug for sales. I'd learned how to sell.

And so at this point, I actually ended up in parts sales, which is kind of a weird spot to go to. But that really introduced me to the oil and gas industry in Alberta, because I worked for at the time a company called the Gear Center and they sold heavy duty parts to places all across Canada.

Ross Huartt (08:44)
When you say you learned how to sell, can you elaborate a little bit on that? Because I'm sure that's a, we all sell in our everyday life, but how do we define that?

Kelly Kennedy (08:49)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just a skill set of how to work with people. I think that really is what sales is. It's learning how to work with people and understand people and build relationship with people. That's truly what selling is. It's about relationship with another person. And when done right, it's a mutually beneficial relationship that leaves both happy. That is the definition of a good sale in my opinion. But yeah.

Ross Huartt (09:13)
100 % yeah people like women with people

Kelly Kennedy (09:19)
Yeah, absolutely. So ended up in part sales and I did that for a number of years. I worked in Fort McMurray. I worked in Edmonton, kind of went all around, um, left that position and then ended up working in Spruce Grove at another organization. Same thing, kind of selling parts and, and it was around 2009 going into 2010 at this point. And I got laid off from that position. That company wasn't doing very well position closed. And I remember kind of sitting there thinking, well, what am I going to do?

And my sister had just went to college. She's like, Kelly, just go to college. I don't even know what I want to do. Right. I have no clue what I want to do. And so what does everyone who has no clue what they want to do, do they go into business school? Right. And so my thought was, man, I've done sales for a long time. I think I just want out. I think I just want to go do something where I know the end of the day, I know what I need to do, just a simple task. And I'm just like, I don't know, be an operations guy or something like that. So I went to went to business school.

Ross Huartt (09:58)
of a sense.

Kelly Kennedy (10:13)
worked, you know, went to school during the day, worked all night, um, as a server at a, at a steak house. Uh, and it was, it was a crazy year. It was actually, I did a diploma program and it was a compressed diploma program. So they crammed two years into one year. So like no vacations, no nothing. Like we got like three days off the whole year, like Christmas, new years and like one other day. I can't remember what it was, but it was just.

Ross Huartt (10:36)
That's efficient though, it's efficient way to do it.

Kelly Kennedy (10:38)
It was, but it was just endless work. It was endless school and then work after that just to kind of keep, keep the lights on. I was living on my own at this point as well. And it was just a crazy, crazy time, but graduated. Sorry.

Ross Huartt (10:49)
Do you not think, do you not think most people, do you not find that's a commonality? I mean, obviously there's, I feel some people find they're calling very early or know what they want to do or whether they're groomed for that, who knows. But I find at 18, you truly don't like, what does doing something for the rest of your life even mean at that point, right?

Kelly Kennedy (11:05)
No.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. You know what? I don't think that people should like choose their life path until they're like in their mid 20s. You just don't know you don't know what you don't know. And you're not going to learn it without life experience. There's just no two ways about it. Right. Yeah. So anyways, I ended up graduating and I was looking for kind of that first job and I saw they were looking for I think it was a director of it or sorry, business administration.

Ross Huartt (11:17)
agreed yeah

Bingo.

Kelly Kennedy (11:38)
business administration for a small startup inspection company that they were just looking for someone to come in, help them run their day to day and potentially help them grow the business a little bit. I was like, Oh, this sounds perfect. And so I reached out and went for my interview and I'm going to call him out. His name is Selva Nadar. Um, he, you know, he really is that, like that person who gave me that first shot. And so I appreciate him immensely. And uh,

Yeah, we ended up starting that company was like a year old at that time. They were very small. They did industrial inspection services across Canada, but primarily in the Alberta area. And so, yeah, we ended up coming into that. And I think about one to two months into my employment there, he sat me down and said, Kelly, look, you are absolutely amazing at human relationships and relationships with other people. Why the heck are you not doing business development? Actually, not only that, I'm just going to make you the business development manager.

I remember being like looking at him and be like, yeah, that sounds amazing. And then sitting down and Googling, what is business development?

Ross Huartt (12:29)
Thanks.

You know what you've just said there though? That is the most, one of the most entrepreneurial situations and traits a person can have. You know the amount of times in the 10 years of building these companies that have, that have been like, I like this person and I think you've got what it takes. Do you want to do this job? And they're like, I don't even know what this job is. Well, I was like, well, you're about to find out. Now I've been, don't get me wrong, I've been wrong sometimes as well, but.

Kelly Kennedy (12:55)
Yeah.

Ross Huartt (13:01)
That's the, you identify a solution to your problem and you're like, that's the person. Right.

Kelly Kennedy (13:05)
Yeah, yeah, it's so funny because yeah, I remember that to this day going back sitting down at my desk and googling what is business development. I was just like, okay, okay, I think I can do this. And at that time, this would have been in 2013. So at that time, we had a lot of like oil and gas executives, construction executives really hitting that like 65 that Twilight retirement stage.

Ross Huartt (13:26)
Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy (13:27)
But it was my job as this young punk 23 year old to go into their office, introduce myself and convince them to try this inspection firm. And I remember thinking, holy crap, how am I supposed to build relationships with these people who could be my like great grandparents? I have nothing in common with them, but ironically I did. And I built amazing relationships with some of these people, relationships that have carried to this day. And uh,

Oh man, I'm so thankful to this day, you know, for my experience in that industry, working in the inspection industry, really cutting my teeth and learning business development in that time, because it was really kind of a weird time because it was the big boom of oil and gas in Alberta, right? Like 2013, 2014 was really that like peak of crazy times. That company that I'm talking about went from making about $300 ,000 a year to about $6 million a year in revenue in two years.

Ross Huartt (14:22)
So you did pick the right business development person then is what you say?

Kelly Kennedy (14:24)
Yeah, I guess so.

Ross Huartt (14:28)
I feel like that's a great ad for the capital business development guys. If you just heard that ROI, there's no better commercial than that.

Kelly Kennedy (14:33)
You

Yeah, it was it was bonkers. It was bonkers. And then it was followed by like one of the roughest times in, you know, Alberta oil and gas history that that we can remember in like recent history, right? 2015 oil and gas crash and like, just kind of fell off the cliff. But I'll tell you what, what really saved that company during that time was the fact that we established such amazing relationships with the large industrial constructors.

with the oil and gas companies, with people who were still winning that oil and gas work, even if it was the small contracts that they were just issuing out. And so they made it through. Not only did they make it through, they're still one of the largest, you know, visual inspection firms in Alberta.

Ross Huartt (15:16)
I think there's also, since the theme of the podcast is lessons learned along the way, I think there's a lesson to be had there. And for some of the listeners that may be on the younger side of their careers, how did you go about developing relationships with a different demographic than you were used to? And you mentioned the sort of the people later in their career, oil and gas is a very sort of construction adjacent industry. So I don't want to stereotype, but you can imagine the executive decision maker.

personas. So how did a 23 year old young punk address that?

Kelly Kennedy (15:54)
Yeah, I think I just went in and started conversation and I didn't focus on business. I focused on them. Right? Like the reality was they may have been 65, but I love motorcycles and I to this day love, you know, I used to go target shooting all the time and I loved motorcycles and I, you know, at that time I did some hunting and so like we would, we would connect on those things because those are things that they loved and did as well. Right. And so the secret to business development isn't selling anything but yourself.

Ross Huartt (16:01)
Yep.

Yes.

Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy (16:24)
it's selling yourself. If you sell yourself, the business always comes.

Ross Huartt (16:28)
Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more there. You know, that's the, that trying to reiterate that one, you know, um, again, I'm a key, I'm an avid salesman. I'd say I enjoy that the most, but I'm not, but, but I just find myself naturally doing it or naturally being excited. And rather than it's not a fee, you can't force a process. You can't, I can't, you couldn't stand there and go door to door and sell, you know, widgets because it's, there's different types of sales, right? There's that, there's that very quick transactional sales. And then as you, as you're describing,

Kelly Kennedy (16:35)
Yes, you are.

read.

Ross Huartt (16:57)
There's the deep relationships that you develop over time and you have to foster. People don't realize how much time and effort fostering and taking care of your network really takes because you can't just meet someone once and then expect them to be in your, in your callable circle. Right. And so I think that's one of the biggest investments anyone younger in their career should make is doing just that because don't, whilst the mic.

Kelly Kennedy (17:13)
That's right.

Ross Huartt (17:22)
may not be immediate returns. You never know when someone that you worked with helped was, were nice to, did something for, will come back to support you down the line.

Kelly Kennedy (17:32)
Yeah. And really the amazing takeaway that came from this for me is those relationships that I established at that time, Ross, even though I'm not directly working in that industry right now, they still follow me. These are still people that we talk with all the time. I would consider most of them friends. I've been at their houses for Christmas parties. Like the relationship was so important, so much further than beyond business. These people mean so much more to me than just business associates. Right. And I think that

Ross Huartt (17:50)
awesome.

Absolutely.

Kelly Kennedy (18:00)
anybody in business needs to strive for this. This is the level of relationship that you want to have with your customers because what better, what better customer to have than somebody who is your friend that you genuinely care.

Ross Huartt (18:12)
Absolutely. And it also, it's kind of a catch 22 as well, because you may think, you know, when you become friends with someone, you then have almost even greater duty of care to make sure you deliver. And so it's actually, whilst it becomes entwined, the relationship isn't just because you're friends. I mean, that's a part of it, but it's based on that you're able to deliver and prioritize them as a result of that relationship.

Kelly Kennedy (18:23)
Of course.

That's right. That's right. And you know what? The lessons are learned because business is hard, right? Like delivering consistently on something always is hard. Something's going to come up. Some error is going to come up, especially if you do business with somebody long enough, something is going to go wrong. And it's how do you handle that situation when it goes wrong? And if you have a great relationship with your customer, you can literally just be honest with them and be like, look, like I'm struggling in this.

Ross Huartt (18:54)
I was thinking.

Kelly Kennedy (19:00)
you know, we're going to fix it for you and they will trust you and believe you and you will actually do that repair as opposed to if you don't have that relationship established, you screw up on that level or something's going wrong and they're just like, you're out in with the next one. So relationship is important to the long -term sustained business relationship.

Ross Huartt (19:19)
Absolutely. And I think one of the things that I've instilled in NBC, and I think a lot of, I don't know if a lot of companies, it sounds simple, but a lot of the best ways of doing things are, is we're not perfect as a service firm. Like you said, any service firm that says they are is lying. Human error. It's about how you address it. And that's one thing I've...

Kelly Kennedy (19:37)
Yeah.

Ross Huartt (19:44)
developed in our culture, quite concentrated, is that if a customer issue comes up, it is dealt with swiftly. And that may even just be responding to the customer to let them know you've received this issue, you're looking into it and get back to them. But how often do people receive those notices and then don't even acknowledge? And it's just these small, tiny things that keep people happy.

Kelly Kennedy (20:07)
Yes, yes. And I think, yeah, like you said, being swift to fix a problem, like don't wait. Don't wait. If there's a challenge, face it head on. Take action, take action quickly, because the worst thing that you can do is not take action and just hope that that problem is going away, because it's not. It's not unless you address it.

Ross Huartt (20:25)
Absolutely. So the recession has hit, there's issues with customers, where does that leave Eli?

Kelly Kennedy (20:31)
Yes. Oh boy. Oh boy. Yeah. Okay. So it's 2015 and that big old recession nails us in Alberta. It was tough. Were you in Alberta at that time, Ross?

Ross Huartt (20:46)
I arrived November 2013.

Kelly Kennedy (20:49)
Okay, okay. So yeah, you remember this time then this time this time hit all of us. Yeah, basically oil and gas plummeted. And so if you were in a service based industry that serviced oil and gas, you were getting nailed with price reduction requests. You remember these?

Ross Huartt (20:52)
Yeah.

We work in the insurance industry so I feel like we still receive those.

Kelly Kennedy (21:09)
Sure, sure. So basically how it ended up going was you would get an email from, you know, one of your clients who would say, Hey, we're being pressured by oil and gas. They're asking us for a 10 % reduction was the initial, the initial request. And it was like, can you provide us with a 10 % reduction in cost until, until this thing is over. And of course everybody was open to giving 10%, right? To help the oil and gas industry, to help us move through to the other end.

but that was only the first request. The next request came about three months later. Okay, this is worse than we thought. We're gonna need an additional, this is the key word, an additional 15%. And it was like, oh, okay. I suppose, yeah, I suppose if this is what it's gonna take, and I guess at this point we'll just be getting by, but yeah, we'll do it, okay.

Ross Huartt (21:39)
Yeah, okay.

Wow. How much margin are you making, right?

Kelly Kennedy (22:02)
So at this point we're at 25 % reduction. Yeah, you're right. What does this mean for most service -based industry? This is, this is your profit margin or more. Well, that wasn't the end of this Ross. And it was probably about four or five months after that, that there was another request for potentially up to an additional 25%. Now you're talking literally 50 % of what you were charging before, you know, this downturn is being, is being asked of these service companies.

Ross Huartt (22:07)
Right. Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy (22:31)
And as you can imagine, what do you think happened to a lot of them?

Ross Huartt (22:35)
You can't sustain that. Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy (22:36)
They just folded. They just folded. And so in the inspection industry, we probably lost half of our competition within about a year of 2015 starting.

Ross Huartt (22:46)
Right. And you know that that's a story I've heard quite a few times across Alberta is companies doing extremely well, making money hand over fist. And then out of nowhere within a year, that revenue and profitability dwindled drastically and resulting in, as you said, many closed shops, many bankruptcies, which is a, you know, in the oil and gas industry with your experience there though, it's, you know, there's that adage that.

History's destined to repeat itself. And I feel as though the oil and gas sector, it has leveled out, but I think that's also because of the electric economy coming through and attempts to reduce our reliance on oil and gas, whether that's being achieved or not. But it suffered heavily from those cycles, right? Like 2015 was one of them, but there was every...

Kelly Kennedy (23:17)
Always. Yep.

Mm -hmm.

It's never recovered from 2015. So yeah, it's never recovered nor will it ever, I don't think. Not to the same level that we had before then aside from, I don't know, a gigantic demand, but I'm not sure that the world has that gigantic demand in it anymore. So we'll see.

Ross Huartt (23:43)
Right, okay. Okay.

We don't think.

I think the world has the gigantic demand. I think that Canada can't match the cost per barrel of other places, unfortunately, but it is the greenest tar sands in the world. So Canada has to be proud of that. So what happened to you then? Where did you go from there?

Kelly Kennedy (24:06)
Sure. Absolutely.

Well, I, so I actually kept my job, believe it or not. Um, yeah, with a massive pay cut. I took about, I took about, yeah, I took about 35 % somewhere in there to keep my job, but I recognized at the time that it was more important to keep my job than it was to, it was to try and hunt because I knew, I knew out there, it was going to be tough. And so, yeah, I spent, um, I spent a grand total of, I think almost 10 years in that organization. I want to say by the time I did my contracting work with them,

Ross Huartt (24:18)
50 % was it?

Yeah.

Wow.

Kelly Kennedy (24:41)
10 full years working with, and I couldn't be prouder of them. I will shout it out. The company's called Engridi Inspection Services. They're based in Edmonton. They've been around a long time, and the owner of that company, Salvan Adar, he's a great man. So if you know...

Ross Huartt (24:53)
Being anywhere a decade speaks volumes, right?

Kelly Kennedy (24:56)
Sure, sure. And you know what? It was very much, and know, people hate the F word, family, family run business or a family feel to an organization, but I'm an advocate. I love a family feel to an organization. And that was one of the things that really kept me there. I really, I liked the owner. We were friends. We'd been through it from the very beginning. So we knew what it was that was being built there. And I really believed in him and his cause and that kept me in the organization. And...

and helped launch my organization. And so we'll go into that. Obviously, 10 years led us right into COVID. And so COVID hit, and COVID was actually impacting them much harder than that 2015 recession did, thank God, to the relationships we'd built.

And so COVID kind of hit, I remember being pulled aside and him just saying like, Kelly, like, I don't, you know, I'm just going to be straight with you. I don't know what this next year looks like. Like right now we're not getting a lot of new opportunity. It doesn't look like too many people are even meeting or the opportunity to meet is happening. You by chance have, you know, something else that you can do. And I was like, you know what? Yes, I think I can figure something out. And so I'd had the idea for capital business development for a while. And that was just the push that I needed. And so.

Literally, it was my birthday, Ross. I incorporated capital business development on my birthday.

Ross Huartt (26:15)
That's awesome. Well, you'll never forget the founding date that way, right? Well, one thing I want to quickly highlight for the listeners and yourself here that I absolutely loved is we spent so much time hearing about how these major world events, whether they be recessions, whether they be a pandemic, but you've just described two of the worst ones in our lifetime relatively. And...

Kelly Kennedy (26:18)
No, I will not. I will not.

Ross Huartt (26:43)
the opportunities that were born from those for you, right? So whilst it's a macro negative, I always believe whenever you have drastic world changing events, they present a significant amount of opportunity in the business world. You just have to be a bit more astute in how you identify it.

Kelly Kennedy (26:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think people need that kick in the butt, right? I know I certainly did, right? Almost all of us before we incorporate our organizations, there's a catalyst. There's something that led us to take that jump, whether that be a positive catalyst or what we perceived at the time as a negative catalyst. But yeah, it's all about the reality is I owe COVID to starting capital. I just do. And I know a lot of companies started up during COVID underneath those very same conditions and have been very successful.

Ross Huartt (27:07)
Yeah.

EcoClaim being one of them, same thing. We're looking at looking at how do you disrupt, how do you do something different? And there was other market forces at play, but it was just innovation born out of a world macro event.

Kelly Kennedy (27:46)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, yeah, that was what ended up happening. Capital started, you know, Engrity became my very first client. He's like, he's like, absolutely, come on down. I'll just hire you back on as a contractor and we'll get you started. And so, like I said, I owe Selva a huge, huge thanks. You know, the reality is it really kickstarted our organization. And yeah, the rest has been history. And so Capital.

Ross Huartt (27:56)
sources.

Did you have any, did you have an experience, you know, you say you set up the business, but I mean, that actually involves incorporating, setting up accounts. There's a whole, it's not just as a, I don't think if people haven't done it, they don't realize necessarily what you need to do to get your house in order for that.

Kelly Kennedy (28:10)
No.

No.

Yeah, yeah. You know what? Like I said, I worked hand in hand right under the owner at Engrity. So I learned, thank God, I learned a lot of how to run a business, you know, how to become profitable, how to do that quickly, how to be efficient, manage people, all on someone else's dime. And so I remember sitting with Salva multiple times and him saying, you know, Kelly, this lesson's cost me a fortune. It's cost you nothing. Learn your lesson. And I did.

Ross Huartt (28:48)
Yes.

Kelly Kennedy (28:51)
And I think that's really important when we work for an organization, especially if you want to be an entrepreneur, recognize that somebody else is paying for your lessons and you need to learn them while they're free because they get a whole lot more expensive when it's your business.

Ross Huartt (29:03)
I'm not getting into that today, but I know better than anyone how expensive lessons can be to learn. It makes them easier to learn when they're that expensive, but you learn them.

Kelly Kennedy (29:13)
Yes, you remember them well when they're your lessons, your expensive lessons.

Ross Huartt (29:18)
Right. So, but told me through how that felt, you know, so you've worked out how to set up your company, you've got your old company on as sort of a contract client, but what were you offering? Like what was Capital Business Development actually offering that was unique and different?

Kelly Kennedy (29:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so -

Okay, so at that time, not much.

Ross Huartt (29:37)
That's a great answer.

Kelly Kennedy (29:40)
Yeah, I'm going to be straight, man. I learned so much about how to build a business and how to build something that would be truly valuable by it being my own organization and me wanting to strive for my clients. And so when I started Capital, I worked just like any business development would. I had my processes, which have really stuck with me and helped me to get through this. And we can get into it as we go through the show. But...

At the time, I kind of approached it just like anybody else in business development would, where it's like, oh, you need business development? Great, hire me and I'll help you out. Just a solo printer out there in the world doing the best they can, right? And I learned a lot of lessons. And one of the things that I learned was business development, most organizations will hire business development with no goal or outcome. They just know they want to grow. They don't know where they want to go with it. They just know they want to grow. And so they hire a business development specialist and say, shoot for the stars. I don't care how you do it.

grow my business and grow it endlessly with no goals or no hope in mind.

Ross Huartt (30:40)
agree 100 % I mean, that's the yes, it's a because again, it's a broad term, they hire a business development person in the hopes that they'll develop business, but unless you have a and again, I've suffered this as the as companies grow rapidly, how do you identify your addressable markets, the regions you want to enter the customer profiles attached to it, and often, as in business.

People solve problems by simply hiring people they think they can solve that problem rather than doing the work first. And then identifying who you need to support what you've outlined.

Kelly Kennedy (31:11)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I think so much like business development as a position within an organization can get incredibly clouded. And I recognize that by working in business development for so long, because it became a blended position in my position before. It was due business development until something goes wrong at the organization, then fix that problem. Oh, and if you could also look after all of our client accounts at the same time, make sure they're happy and that they keep buying our service. That would be great.

The problem with that approach is it's too many hats. And what happens if you put too many hats on somebody? What typically happens is they're going to gravitate towards the easier thing. The easier thing in this particular case is account management. What would you rather do? Would you rather go for lunch with your buddies, play some golf with your buddies, get repeat business, which is still solving the problem, but not ultimately doing what you're hired to do?

That's what happens to most business development specialists. They end up becoming account managers. New business development goes out the window because it's hard, requires process, requires goals that they have to hit. No one wants to do that, right?

Ross Huartt (32:17)
And you know, it's, it's, I'm glad you brought that up because again, that resonated very strongly with me over the last little while as a natural Hunter, you know, a Hunter farmer in the sales world. Um, I just, I always wanted a team of hunters. I'm like, if you're not a Hunter, why, why, why would I want you on my sales team? And obviously they're very, very hard to find, which results in a lot of, you know, misplaced expectations, let downs on both sides and.

Kelly Kennedy (32:35)
Yes.

Ross Huartt (32:46)
I now understand how important it is to have farming and hunting. There's very two distinct disciplines to avoid. As you just said, you don't really achieve what you want with just one. They have to be very two. Sales and business development. One's closing, one's farming.

Kelly Kennedy (32:53)
Absolutely.

Yeah. And actually I would take that a step further and I would say that account management is actually where you want to take that too. And you want to have somebody in your organization who is dedicated to managing accounts, building relationship. Business development should really be about new opportunity only. And it should hand off to somebody who is going to sustain that relationship. And that's their full -time job because

If you get somebody who's just really great at new business development, you were always going to have great opportunities coming in your door. They're going to be aiming to hit your growth goals for the year. They're really like a good business development person is really trying to achieve your growth goal year over year. It's a real target. It's real something. They're actually going to do the math and figure out what it's going to take to get there, how many meetings they have to accomplish, and they're going to get to town. They're going to identify the targets. They're going to build those relationships, but they can't manage those relationships to not affective.

Ross Huartt (33:58)
correct. Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy (33:58)
And so it's really important that in your organizations, I know we're talking to a lot of entrepreneurs right now who are thinking, shit, that means that I need to pay for two positions. Yes, it does. But understand that the long term payoff for this system is going to lead to a much more lucrative organization for you.

Ross Huartt (34:07)
Yep.

I wish I talked to you two years ago on this exact topic, because I literally, I think, only realized this the last 12 months. For me, I think I see business, so I see it threefold. I see business development, which is developing the opportunity. Then you have the sales, which is closing said opportunity. And again, depending on your industry and organization.

Kelly Kennedy (34:39)
Yeah, yeah, yep.

Ross Huartt (34:40)
be set up differently. And then the third piece is once it's closed and awarded is the account management, ensuring you, the customer is happy, satisfied, and you can continue to develop further opportunities. So like, and to a lot of people just think sales. I have people confused sales with I'm doing PR. PR is not sales. PR is completely something different. So it's important to understand those functions. And honestly, if anyone listening is starting a business, build it with that in mind that you have.

Kelly Kennedy (34:51)
Yeah.

That's right.

Ross Huartt (35:09)
a development function, a closing function and a satisfaction, a client satisfaction and maintenance function.

Kelly Kennedy (35:17)
Yes, I actually love the break, the breakdown that you've used. I think that's really on point and, and really, you know, you kind of nailed on something too, like your organization sales or closer doesn't actually have to be your business development specialist or the account manager. It could be an operations manager. It could be a project manager who knows the ins and outs of the business and can really speak to it. It really just has to be somebody who can explain what your business does.

Ross Huartt (35:35)
Bingo.

Yes. I mean, in the, in the case of, I give, use the engineering example, you know, I can develop all the business in the world. I want to meet with the right executives, but when it comes to actual, the, the closing of that, quite often you need a technical expert with you because the client wants to get into the nitty gritty to finalize everything. And they bring that to them. Now, would you send that technical expert to the business development intro? Probably not. Cause that's not where it gets technical. So I guess it's.

Kelly Kennedy (35:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ross Huartt (36:10)
I look at it more as a toolkit now and when to apply said toolkit rather than trying to just, you know, sell as much as you can because sales solves all problems.

Kelly Kennedy (36:21)
Yeah. Yeah. What I like to do is so as a business development specialist, and I've talked to a lot of organizations that also try to make your business development specialist, the product expert. We are not the product expert. Um, we, we know how to build relationship. What our job really is, is to build interest and value in your product, right? In your product or service. That doesn't mean that we know how your widget works or that we should, frankly, what we need to know how to do is understand how your product works.

Ross Huartt (36:44)
Right. Yes.

Kelly Kennedy (36:51)
help build the value proposition and then help shout that value proposition from the rooftops to a whole bunch of people and build interests so that they will want to come for that technical discussion, right? And so once we kind of come into that technical discussion, you should bring somebody who knows a good amount about it to attend. And as a business development specialist, our job is to take it to the next steps. So what we'll always do is in that organization or that conversation, what we're trying to do is say, this has been really great.

We can see the fit for your product or service here. What's the next steps? Do we need another meeting? Do you want a product demonstration? Can we just get an RFP or an RFQ or do you just want to buy this damn thing? Right?

Ross Huartt (37:30)
Well, tell me, so you did, you outlined your, your, I guess the business development process that you follow there. Now talk me a little bit through that. You know, imagine you're, if I'm a customer and I want to understand how your process applies to my organization, what does that look like?

Kelly Kennedy (37:44)
Yeah, yeah. So basically what I'll typically try to do Ross is build interest in what you're doing, right? So I'll say, hey, you know, in this case, we're working with EcoClaim, we're working with MBC Group, we do this, this is why we're awesome at it. These are the clients that we work with. Here's why I think it'll be valuable to your organization. I'm not really the product expert in this, but let me get you in a room with people who can really tell you how this thing works. Does that sound interesting to you? You're gonna be like, yeah, that sounds awesome. Let's set up the meeting.

That's really what your business development people need to know. And this takes work, remember. I would need to do a deep dive into understanding what your value proposition is. I'm going to know it inside and out. I'm going to develop a great pitch that builds interest. And that's the thing. You need to build curiosity and interest. That's really what business development is, building curiosity and interest that leads to in -person meetings.

Ross Huartt (38:14)
Yeah.

vehicles.

Absolutely it is. And you make it actually, that's a great point because everyone on listening to this likely has a LinkedIn account. And I think we can all, we all know how onerous those constant messages are with terrible, terrible sales pitches. And it's just a waste of everyone's time. But back to your point, if you're going to reach out to someone, it needs to be short, brief, and get them interested to explore further. Simply saying, can we have a call to discuss your needs?

Kelly Kennedy (38:46)
Yes. Yes.

Ross Huartt (39:03)
that doesn't get anyone interested because if you don't know my needs, this seems like a bit of a pointless quote.

Kelly Kennedy (39:04)
No. That's right. That's right. That's right. I like to say to you, like people like to think that brochures are dead. Brochures are not dead. Um, I use brochures at all my clients. I use brochures at capital and we use them to build interest because you don't have to give the pitch on the LinkedIn pitch. You can just say, Hey, I'm Kelly with XYZ company. It's an absolute pleasure to meet you. I actually do this. If you find that maybe interesting, I've attached a brochure for you. What I like to call this is a soft introduction or a

Ross Huartt (39:19)
Hmm.

Kelly Kennedy (39:33)
And what it is is actually most of the time they'll read that brochure, even though they'll, and they'll, and they'll, they won't filter it because you came at it so personal with them and it kind of, it bypasses that filter. And so we go, Kelly, that's interesting. I think I will take a peek at this. And so even if they don't necessarily call you back, you'll add them to your first stage of your CRM, which is your digital introduction. And when you reach out to them, you've already had soft contact. You've already, they already know who you are.

Ross Huartt (39:42)
Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Kelly Kennedy (40:01)
And so it gives you just that slight edge to make it a little easier to get that meeting.

Ross Huartt (40:05)
So I love that because there's a lesson there. Anyone in my organization will hear this term a lot, but I always use the term who cares. You know, I say it sometimes in maybe a bit of a facetious fashion, but that's the real question. Like if I'm reaching out to someone and you know, I am no stranger to cold reach outs, but make sure you know that who cares. Like if I'm reaching out to a specific profile, demographic, even individual, I always have a reason.

why they should care. Now whether they do care, whether they do respond, that's another matter. But rest assured that my contact with them will present the opportunity and provide them with the who cares. But if you don't put that, if you don't find who cares or why they should care, you're going to fail.

Kelly Kennedy (40:52)
Absolutely. And part of business development's job is to identify who cares. Because if you're marketing to the wrong person, you're just wasting time. And I think what's really important for organizations to understand is every single time your business development person, your salesperson reaches out to the wrong person, you still paid for that. So do you want to be paying for effective work or ineffective work? And so it is important. It is important that you've identified the right buyers at various organizations and that you're targeting them effectively because every reach out costs money.

Ross Huartt (40:57)
Yeah.

Yes, absolutely.

It does. And you touched on something there that falls quite nicely into my next piece. You mentioned marketing. Now I'll be the first to admit, you know, again, as being a sales driven entrepreneur, having sales driven organizations, marketing was always a bit of an afterthought because the sales was the marketing, like being in front of the customers. And I have to say, and me, my company, I don't think it necessarily, we've done well, but that's not because we've had great marketing plans or strategies.

Kelly Kennedy (41:40)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Ross Huartt (41:52)
So given your expertise, Kelly, do you want you give me a bit of a view of what you think marketing is, what you believe it to be and what that looks like for a company.

Kelly Kennedy (42:00)
How about I just tell you why you've done well? Because you've taken an active marketing approach Ross, which is the most effective marketing approach period. You're not afraid to pick up the phone, go to meetings, talk to people, introduce your product and be a person first. And so in this modern day, you know, the 21st century, everyone wants the easy fix. They want to just hopefully go to digital marketing and do their Google AdWords and you know,

Ross Huartt (42:03)
Come on, yeah, I'm always over here in the back.

Absolutely.

Kelly Kennedy (42:30)
Hopefully people will come, but unfortunately that's not how it works. And most companies need to take about an 80 % active marketing approach, which is old school, you know, targeting the right people, doing those digital introductions, finding the actual contact information, whether it be phone numbers, emails, and reaching out weekly until you either disqualify or get the meetings. If you do this, you are going to be infinitely more successful than if you go the other way. However, this is really for B2B.

Ross Huartt (42:52)
Yes.

Kelly Kennedy (42:59)
If we are talking to B2C organizations, an 80 % passive marketing approach, which is digital marketing, influencers, YouTube, social media is actually the more effective way. But you have to think, who am I targeting? Am I targeting business relationships or am I targeting an end user individual? If it's an end user individual, you need an 80 %

passive marketing strategy. If it is a business, you need an 80 % active marketing strategy. But this is a rule I live by. I bring it to all the clients I work with and it works to great success.

Ross Huartt (43:30)
I love, I've never actually heard that. And now you've, again, what I love about entrepreneurship in business is just doing things. Like, you know, my LinkedIn content, yours, I didn't, I don't have a grand plan. I just share things that are interesting me in the day or something I found interesting to share or meaningful. And, but then what you realize you're actually doing is what you've just described. I'd say our business is 80 % active, just simply by the nature of what we do. And then we do some of the...

the passive, if you will. But that ratio probably works out almost exactly right when I think about it. So that's fascinating to put.

Kelly Kennedy (44:02)
Perfect.

Yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. It's like whether you knew it or not, you were doing it perfectly. But so many companies are afraid and it's okay. I get it. You know, it's funny. I'm in business development. I still struggle some days to do my cold calls. I absolutely do. But I also recognize that if I just do them, I'm going to hit something called a cold call cadence. And so I'm going to give you all of your listeners a great tip right now. If you hate cold calls, but you know you have to make them just start with five.

Ross Huartt (44:11)
Yeah, you're a little bit of social worker, man.

Come on in.

Kelly Kennedy (44:35)
After about five cold calls, something happens. It's kind of like a runner's high. You know how you have to run to have a runner's high. Well, guess what? You have to do cold calls to hit a cold call cadence. But if you get through five calls, you're going to find the next five easier and the next five after that easier. And the next thing you're going to know, you've busted out 20 calls and you probably booked yourself a meeting or two and you're going to, you're going to have so much more success for it. So don't be afraid.

Don't be afraid to make those cold calls. I know that they're scary. I know and trust me, it's like I've been doing this for 13 years at this point directly. Yeah, I still have my days that I don't want to do it, but I also know that if I do do it, I will hit a cold call cadence. It won't be so bad. And I'm going to get those meetings that we need to have.

Ross Huartt (45:13)
Yeah. That, you know, that is great advice. I mean, again, I've, I didn't, again, I didn't even know what it was called that, but you're right. The amount of times I can't tell you how many times over the 10 years I've sat in my office and whether it's cold emails, cold reach outs, cold calls, if you will, and have done ended up doing hundreds. Cause you're like, well, I'll just reach out to these few people. And then before you know it, you're just into it. And, and what I always tell our teams when they come in, you know, if, if you do five.

Kelly Kennedy (45:35)
Yeah, exactly.

Ross Huartt (45:43)
contacts a day and you extrapolate that by how many working days there are that is a even five is a lot ten is extraordinary and you know how long it takes to call or email or reach out to ten people not very long really

Kelly Kennedy (45:57)
No, no, no, that's it. It's like, it's like once you just do it and you do it consistently, you get results like the secret. You know, you asked about what I learned, right? I told you that when I, you know, I learned a lot in business development when I did it for a company, but I learned so much more when I went out and did it for myself, because now I couldn't just rely on those connections anymore. I had to learn how to do this on a broad scale. And so that's what I learned, right?

Ross Huartt (46:19)
Hmm.

Kelly Kennedy (46:20)
I learned to not rely on my connections. I don't need new connections at Capital Business, or sorry, I don't need to rely on my past connections at Capital Business Development. I've developed a skill set to get new ones, which is really what business development people need to know how to do. It's not who they know today. It's how good are they at finding the people they know when their contact list runs out.

Ross Huartt (46:28)
Right.

I love that, that's so true. Because often people hire for networks, I know I've done that. But you're right, the key thing about a network is not just farming what you have, but continually expanding that. And I think that can often be missed if you just sit in your comfort zone, which is your current network.

Kelly Kennedy (46:52)
Totally.

Yes, yes. And one of the other things that we kind of got into at the beginning of the show, Ross, was having someplace to go, right? Hiring somebody in sales and business development, but not giving them a goal. It's very debilitating to their ability to accomplish what you want. And so it's really important that when you hire somebody for business development or sales, that they know what your corporate growth goals are for the year and they can develop a plan for you.

Ross Huartt (47:14)
Agreed.

Kelly Kennedy (47:24)
on how they are going to accomplish them. It is not for you to tell them how, it is for them to tell you how they are going to accomplish your growth goals. And that way they'll actually, hopefully think about it, figure out how many people they need to talk to, figure out what organizations they need to talk to, and be able to prevent or present you something on an annual basis on how they are going to accomplish the growth for the business over the course of that year. Give them a goal and let them create a plan for you.

Ross Huartt (47:33)
Absolutely.

And I, you know, I often use that as a, as more even before people join us, if the interview process, that's one of the key things I'm always curious about is if it's a sales related role, this is our objective and why we want this role. Tell me how you would go about achieving that or even provide me an overview, right?

Kelly Kennedy (48:07)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely critical. Cause I think, and you know, you do this, but I'm telling you right now, there's a lot of organizations that just hire people and say, we just need growth. We don't even know how much we want to grow. We just know we need sales, get out there and figure it out. But the problem is, is that that can be really motivating for a little while. But over time, when you don't know where you're going, it can become very, very debilitating for your sales and business development teams. If they don't know what they're aiming for, because it's just this endless hamster wheel. And so,

Ross Huartt (48:18)
Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

Big move.

Kelly Kennedy (48:35)
I think a simple way to make your business development teams, your sales teams more effective is simply to just say, hey, you know, in this year we want to accomplish, you know, a $2 million growth goal over and above what we're doing currently. Show us how we're going to do that and figure out what it's going to take to get there. And honestly, they're going to be psyched for that. They're going to be happy for that because even if it seems a little hard, at least it gives them something to aim for. And if you don't know what you're aiming for, it's very hard to hit anything.

Ross Huartt (49:00)
No, I think that's, that's key in business. And as I said, I've only learned that the last year or so. So I'm sure if there's a gem of knowledge there to be taken away for everyone, it's that now I know as we're coming up to time here a little bit, Kelly, one thing we haven't jumped into, and it's all got no five minutes to go over that. Um, we learned how capital BD came to be, but the podcast, you're the reason that this podcast has started. So tell me how that came to be.

Kelly Kennedy (49:21)
Yeah.

Okay, you know what? It was last year, I launched this podcast in February, or I guess the business development podcast, just to give your listeners an idea of what we're talking about. Ross has graced our stage two times at this point, so it's always an honor. We launched the business development podcast with the idea that there was nothing in the space Ross to help business development people.

And so it was a two pronged approach. I recognized that as an entrepreneur, as somebody who wants to change the world, I need a platform to do that from. I also recognized very quickly there was nothing in the business development space. And I was like, okay, maybe I can do this. And so that's how it was born. I bought all the equipment. It sat in the corner of our room for a whole month. And my fiance just looked at me and was like, Kelly, do something with that stuff.

Ross Huartt (50:14)
Well, mine was mine was sat in the corner of an office for a year. So a month doesn't seem that bad.

Kelly Kennedy (50:19)
Yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, I remember thinking, okay, if I don't set this stuff up and do something, I'm never going to. I went down, I recorded the intro episode and I've released two episodes ever since, uh, since that point. And man, it's been amazing. Um, you're going to find that too. I know this is just your first guest episode, but the people that you get to meet, uh, when you have a podcast, it, it'll change your life. It'll change your world.

Ross Huartt (50:42)
No, I love to hear that. I mean, and we talked about it sort of before we started recording there. You know, again, I'm no stranger to public speaking, no stranger to podcasts even, but there was, I don't know, for some reason there was, I don't know if nerves are the right word, but there was a little bit of apprehension even for me in kicking off this episode. So how did it feel for you when you, not only have you started a new company, you're launching on this endeavor. And so how did that feel?

Kelly Kennedy (50:52)
Yeah.

Totally.

Yeah, yeah. So I launched the business development podcast two years into capital. And yeah, it was incredibly nerve wracking. I guess a lot of imposter syndrome. It's like, and I think that that's easy to have because it's like, okay, I know that I know what I'm doing, but am I really do I really know enough to get on and tell the world how to do it? That's a completely different place to go. And so yeah, dude, I struggled with imposter syndrome. I had probably three episodes that I

was very reluctant to release, but I did anyway. And it's so funny because it's like I knew how I was feeling in that moment. You would never know to hear the episode. But when you record an episode, you know how you're feeling. You're like, oh, that episode sucked. But I can't tell you how many times I've had an episode that I was like, that episode sucked. That ended up being like I got so many comments saying they loved the episode. It was right on point. You nailed it. And it's like, so I want you to understand if there's people listening to this who are maybe on the fence about starting their own show and you're like, oh, you know, do I really know enough? Yes, you do.

100 % you do, you're probably an expert in your field, just like Ross is an expert in his. And when you finally get on, recognize the person you have to fight is not the people out in the world, it's you.

Ross Huartt (52:16)
It is, and I think that's a great note to end on there, Kelly. You are sometimes, even in business, you're your own worst enemy. Quite often others don't care enough. And so yeah, it's yourself that can be your own worst enemy and inhibit you from doing certain things. Kelly, it's been wonderful. That was the inaugural episode one of Lessons of a CEO with myself, Ross Hewett. Stay tuned for next.

Kelly Kennedy (52:26)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Ross Huartt (52:46)
week's episode and we'll have EcoClaim's very own Jodie Scarlett with us. Thank you very much, Kelly. Take care.

Kelly Kennedy (52:50)
I mean, it was an honor.