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Board Governance Best Practices and Stories/Experiences Shared
Mark Docherty: [00:00:04] “Everybody's honorable. Okay, you got to come from a perspective of everybody's honorable and they're here for the right reasons, okay? That's true. You know, when you walk into that chamber, everybody's honorable, nobody's a liar, okay? Everybody is sincere. You got to come from that perspective. Everybody is honorable. And now, okay, but everybody's trying to call each other names, and they're, so how do you call somebody a liar without calling him a liar?”
Munir Haque: [00:00:40] Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Boardroom 180 podcast. I'm your host, Munir Haque, an executive coach and senior board strategist. I lead the governance and political acumen division with Canada's top executive development firm, ActionEdge Executive Development. In each episode, we meet governance leaders as they take us into boardrooms where decisions shape the world around us. We'll hear the good, the bad and the ugly, but with a keen focus on where the gaps are, discover emerging best practices, and real-world tools to better evaluate, guide and grow you and your boards.
In today's episode, we have the pleasure of talking to Mr. Mark Docherty. So Mark was a Saskatchewan Party MLA, a member of Legislative Assembly for the constituency of Regina Coronation Park. That's the area where he was born and spent his early life. He was first elected to the Saskatchewan legislature in 2011. He was reelected in 2016 and again in 2020. And then while he was in there, he was elected by both parties to serve as Speaker of the House of legislature in 2018 until 2020, and in 2023 he stepped down. Mark has worked in many human service roles, including director of Dales House, director of Immigration and Settlement, supervisor for a health community care branch, team leader at the Paul Dojack Youth Center, and clinical director for the Leading Thunderbird Lodge. He's a founding member of the Street Culture Kids Project, Inc. and has served on boards of Regina North Central Community Association. So welcome to the podcast, Mark.
Mark Docherty: [00:02:19] Thank you very much, Munir, and good to see you. Always a pleasure.
Munir Haque: [00:02:23] Nice to see you too. I don't know if you know that, but you probably know this, but I don't live in Regina anymore. I'm in Alberta.
Mark Docherty: [00:02:30] I've heard that. So I think it's Calgary, correct?
Munir Haque: [00:02:33] Yes, I'm in Calgary.
Mark Docherty: [00:02:34] Excellent, excellent. No, thanks. Thanks for having me.
Munir Haque: [00:02:38] So I gave you a pretty brief intro there, considering all that you've done. So I think maybe we can go into it a little bit more. And I thought maybe we could start out with starting out a little bit more about your life before politics. So if you give me a bit of a breakdown of, you know, what you referred to as human services career.
Mark Docherty: [00:02:56] True enough. Yeah. So I've certainly would be an extensive career. I've been involved with a number of different ministries. I think it's four actual ministries that I was a part of. And a number of non-profits and First Nation organizations and such. So, yeah, as you said, I mean, I started out at Paul Dojack Youth Center, and at the time I was doing, it was a great shift, just four on, four off. It was fantastic. And I didn't start till 3 p.m. and I got to be a triathlete. Right? So I mean, I was, I represented Canada at the World Championships a number of times and which was fantastic. And then I left Paul Dojack Youth Center and went to Dale's House and which was children who needed protection, apprehended status, assessment, stabilization. So I did that again for a number of years. I ended up being the director. And during that time I got, I was diagnosed with MS. So I decided to take a shot at the Maritimes. So I left and I lived in the Maritimes for a number of years, and that was all well and good. Ended up, started in Truro, moved to Halifax and then moved to PEI. And so I was at Holland College, which was the, which is basically the SIAST of PEI.
Mark Docherty: [00:04:17] So I was out there, I was doing my thing, and then I moved back to Saskatchewan. And so I worked for SUN. I started with SUN, the Saskatchewan Union of Nurses. I worked for them for a while then I started on the on the path of detox and treatment. So I was hired by at the time it was called Qu'Appelle Health Region. Now it's the SHA. So I put together detox treatments, strategies for them. And then I was hired by Sask Health for their treatment addiction strategy. Did that. And back to social services, developing resources and then Leading Thunderbird Lodge, which was First Nation treatment for adolescents. Did that and then got, was asked to be the director of immigration, did that as primarily settlement, which was all well and good and concurrently one day a week, if not, sometimes it's two days a week, I taught at between Saskpolytec and the U of R, different pieces, but it was for licensed practical nurses on reserve, so it was Kawacatoose reserve. So I did that for a number of years. And then, yeah. And then I pivoted or transitioned into politics. So that was, as you said, 2011. So. Yeah. So that takes us to exactly where we're at.
Munir Haque: [00:05:39] Okay. So yeah, before we kind of talk a little bit more about that transition, I just want to maybe pry into, not pry in a little bit more and ask a little more questions about your, kind of your life before politics and your exposure in the corporations or the groups that you were to the governance structure. So you said, like, you were a couple of them, you said like director of immigration. So were you involved or report at all to a board there, or was it an organization governed by a board?
Mark Docherty: [00:06:11] No, that one was government. So I reported to manager, a manager above me. So there was no board involved with any of my government roles. So I didn't report to a board there. With any times that I worked for a First Nation organization. It's now called the Indigenous Indigenous Services Canada. There is a board and board involvement, not necessarily me directly, but when I was clinical director, I would go to board meetings and I was hired by Qu'Appelle, Hills Qu'Appelle Tribal Council and Touchwood Agency Tribal Council. So that was my board. They were also the ones that conducted the interview. And so depending on the organization, but any time I was involved with not-for-profit organizations or CBOs, I reported to a board. So when I was on the, I was actually on the board for North Central Community Association and executive directors would report to the board. Right? There's a fiduciary responsibility in regards to that. And yeah, I mean, we can talk about boards, but primarily my experience would be on the government side. It wouldn't be necessarily, but I mean, we'll talk about that as well. But as speaker, I was a chair of a number of boards and which I think is important. Right? And they're very, very public. So everything was again recorded and public.
Munir Haque: [00:07:34] Maybe I'll ask a little bit about, you know, being on the Community Association board. Through some of the previous work I've done, I've been on adjudication committees where we're kind of reviewing grants that the municipality gives out to those boards. And I know that each board kind of operates at different levels. Some are a lot more sophisticated than others. Some have a good understanding of what the governance is, but some of them are just kind of people who want to work within their community and may not have other board experience. And so I'm not sure, now this was a while back for you, but was, did you see kind of like a transition in that board on your time there in terms of their level of comprehension, understanding of what governance was and/or where they get their direction from?
Mark Docherty: [00:08:20] Yeah, it would depend on the makeup of the board. Right? So sometimes they would ask for some expertise. Specifically, you'll notice that any time that organizations are looking for board members, they'll say, we want board members with the following experiences or thereof. And it's, you know, it's rather interesting because they're looking for specific pieces. Are you an expert or a knowledge of financials, for instance? So that's a piece. In terms of, in terms of the boards, it's been hit-and-miss. Right? So sometimes it is they're looking for specifics. And I've been involved in certainly in pieces, you have to live in the area, for instance. That was a caveat. You have to live in, for instance, North Central. You don't live in North Central then you can't possibly be part of a board. And then from there it was what do you bring to, what are you bringing to this? So it made some sense. Other boards, it depends on, you talked about a governance board, right? I've been involved in boards that have had, that are operational in nature. And there's some pluses and some minuses to being part of an operational, having an operational board because they're there for startup. They're there to assist. So any time that there's an issue with the, for instance, with an organization or a board, it might be operational. Right? And now we're looking at specific expertise. That's what the board's made up of, it's experts. So do you necessarily need an operational board? It depends. Right? I would say a governance board probably fits for a number of different organizations. It's the governance board. You ask the board if you need any help. And from there, right from there, you get the help. But, yeah, it's again, it's hit and miss. But I think governance boards actually in a general sense take care of all of it.
Munir Haque: [00:10:13] So the operational board, is there more of a working board that kind of get into the day-to-day of it, if you need help with financials they're the ones who kind of step in and help that. And governance, as you said, it's a little bit more in terms of oversight. Is there anything you would say, you know, in terms of your work with First Nations? You said like when you worked with them, there was opportunities for you to kind of go report to the board, go to board meetings. You weren't necessarily there. You weren't like the CEO or the president of those organizations, like, but you went to provide information. That you'd be, what's it called, like the subject matter expert, you'd be brought in by the executive director. Correct?
Mark Docherty: [00:10:57] Correct. It was exactly that. So I mean, I was clinical director of Leading Thunderbird Lodge, and I answered specifically to, I guess we call it, call her the CEO or the executive director or anything you want to say, and she would report directly to the board, but I would go to board meetings and report, right, on a clinical level. They'd be interested in day-to-day cases, for instance, in a general sense, without naming names obviously, but just this is how many kids, this is where they're coming from, these are their issues, these are the substances that they're involved with. And I'd go from there. But, or any issues with, for instance, just to bring them up to date, right? Or any instances with staffing or anything I've got. So I'd bring them just, I'd take them up to date. And usually it was every two months, a couple of months. It depends on the board. Sometimes it's quarterly, but it's important that they know what's going on. Boards need to know what's happening because otherwise, because they're responsible. An way we want to slice this, they're responsible. So they should know what's going on and they shouldn't, anytime you have an issue you need to talk to them and let them know what's going on and be transparent. And otherwise you don't have a great relationship with your board. So be as candid as you possibly can and let them know.
Munir Haque: [00:12:16] Also some organizations, like they're, the person at the top is qualified to kind of bring the whole picture to the board. But occasionally you need to bring in subject matter experts just to kind of ask those detailed questions that some board members have. It depends on how involved they are with the day-to-day or stuff like that. So with, you know, we talked about the Lodge, the organization itself would have a vision and a mandate and kind of a direction that they want to proceed in. So, you know, presumably that comes from somewhere up high. So would that have come through from the board, is the board the one that would have set that vision and mandate, or is it the executive of the organization that did that and then the board adopts it?
Mark Docherty: [00:13:07] Yeah, that's an interesting question because I'm always of the belief that it should be the actual staff on the ground that comes up with a vision. And we're talking about basically a strategic plan. And that's, you know, that's vision, mission, mandate, that's all of those pieces. And the board should be involved. They should be a part of it. Now, whether or not they give the first kick at the, so-called kick at the can and say here's an option in terms of vision or mission or mandate, and we'll just get the ball rolling. I've found that you really have to, you really have to own this as a staff. You have to believe it. You have to see yourself in that. So whether or not it's vision, mission, mandate, do you see yourself in this? If not, why don't you? So let's work through that and let's come up with a vision that actually, you know, actually makes some sense for the organization. And so outsiders, when they login to your website, do they see there's the vision and they go, yeah, I get that immediately. Can't be too long. And it's you know, it's a sentence or maybe it's two, that's it. And you go from there. But what's your mission? Why are you there? What's, what's your reason for being?
Mark Docherty: [00:14:18] And you've got to be able to articulate that. So that's your, you know, your mission or your mandate. And sometimes your mandate is directed in regards to funders. Right? So you've applied for grants and those grants are saying you're eligible for this funding if you do the, if your organization will do the following. So it could be an age limit. It could say we, this is for you to deal with 15 or 16-year-olds or this is a deal with your community. It could be crime, it could be gangs, it could be anything. Right? So you write your application for grants because you need them as an organization because there's no other way to get money besides block funding. So if you're lucky enough to get block funding, then away you go, right, you don't have to worry about grants. But I've, you know, I've been involved in grant writing. So, but it's very, very specific and you need to, I again, I want staff to be involved in, again, mission, vision mission mandate because otherwise they don't believe it. Then you've lost. You're not even, you've lost things from square one.
Munir Haque: [00:15:22] Oh fair enough. And so like what I'm kind of hearing is that I think everybody top to bottom, including the board, need to drink the Kool-Aid, so to speak, and get behind the corporation or the organization's vision, mission and mandate. But I guess, I mean, kind of, you kind of spoke to it, like, you also have to know who your audience is. So in organizations that they would, as you said, like when you're writing a grant, you put a slightly different, you have a different internal vision as you do external. Something different on your website as opposed to something that you, on a monthly basis with your staff, you know, I just want to kind of transition more into kind of your government work now, like in politics, but so--
Mark Docherty: [00:16:04] -- be gentle here, Munir.
Munir Haque: [00:16:07] Well, so having worked within the ministry and working external to the government, how did that prepare you for, I guess, first off, or convince you that you wanted to run for election or why you wanted to represent. But in general, how did it prepare you? Like is it what you thought it would be?
Mark Docherty: [00:16:28] Yeah. It was, certainly it was different because I was in, I'd worked for government before, four different, as I said four different ministries and a number of different pseudo-government organizations. And so I was interested in providing service. There's no other debate. Right? There's the word. Are you willing to, are you willing to be and provide service? Are you going to serve your constituents? And I wanted to continue that. So for me, it was, it seemed to be a natural progression. So I went from an understanding of government from a perspective. But for instance, we would write briefing notes in the ministry. Those briefing notes were to a minister or a minister's office. We wondered, does anybody ever read these things or what happens with a briefing note? I have no idea. Right? But once I got into politics and, you know, and I was a minister for a while, for two and a half years, I think, and then, but briefing notes, I wouldn't ask for briefing notes unless I really needed to be briefed. Because I knew what it was like. I knew 100% what it's like to actually be, you know, request for a briefing note, even though it's not really part of your job, but it is part of your job, right? So doing day-to-day pieces and I remember especially at immigration, I'm walking down the aisle and we were in cubicles at the time and nobody wants to make eye contact because as soon as they make eye contact, I'm looking at them going, I'm going, and they know what I'm walking down with. Right? And it's a briefing note. And I said, oh, you made eye contact, but I would just, I would just rotate and make sure that everybody did it once, but it was, yeah, it was an interesting perspective in regards to, in regards to that. But I saw it as a natural transition and actually coming full circle. because I saw what this meant as a politician and where it all fit. So for me, I was just happy to be, I was happy to be a part of it. So it wasn't, it was natural. Right? I said, well, I'm going to continue to serve. How best to do that? I had no idea. I had no idea if I was going to win. I had no idea really, about government or governance, the internal pieces of the legislature. You really have to be a politico in order to really get, to really understand this. You got to be a part of, you got to be a part of things because the general public is, you know, is just, isn't as tied into things as as you think they are.
Mark Docherty: [00:19:11] I mean, they're, you represent them. Right? And they're not stupid. The voter, for instance, the voter's always right. If you come from that perspective of saying the voter is always right and they pick the right person, right? And that's it. And we'll probably talk about, we'll talk about, I mean, all of our processes in Canada or the province in terms of voting is first past the post. Right? So whoever wins, whoever's ahead of things wins. That's it. That's it. Now, I mean, you're going to have an awful lot of conversation coming up, I'd imagine, with proportional representation. So instead of first past the post, whoever's winning wins and however you voted in your constituency or area doesn't matter, right? Just the one person that wins. That's it. And that's our system right now. But if you look at, so for instance, proportional representation would be 40% of the vote goes to a party. And that gives them 40%, or sorry 40 seats. 40% of the vote you get 40 seats. And that's something to be, who knows? I've never been involved in anything remotely like that because that just doesn't exist. But that conversation is alive and well. So we'll see where it takes us. I have no idea, but we'll see where it goes. But that's the conversation. The conversation is proportional representation as opposed to first past the post.
Munir Haque: [00:20:53] Sorry. You think that conversation is happening now? Do you see that, do you see that as where I guess provincial politics will go in the, or legislature will go in the future? And I guess like my question is like, who would bring that along? That seems like whoever is spearheaded it might be writing their own obituary.
Mark Docherty: [00:21:14] Yeah, exactly. It's fascinating. So, yeah, if I was going to, if I was going to guess, I would say the federal government would have to do it first. And there's 338 seats in Canada. Right? But we'll have to, we'll have to see if there's an appetite for this. Because the conversations have occurred. But they're not too loud, but the conversations have occurred saying our people actually do they have a voice? And sometimes it's no. I thought that, again, it was an honor. It was an honor to serve. And I tried to, as best as you possibly can, to make sure that everybody's voice is heard. Minimally, if I don't quite necessarily agree with the person, I still got to help them. Right? Because I, and so I direct them, you know, to the right place. And we'd go from there. If that didn't quite work out, they'd phone back. But I'd always, I'd always, I'd never say sorry, wrong door, wrong place, can't help you. Because that's ridiculous, right?
Mark Docherty: [00:22:19] You're there to serve. Whether or not, people get confused about municipal, federal, or provincial politics, they have no idea who's responsible for anything. And that's okay, right? That's okay. You better be prepared to say, well, that pothole isn't me, but city council. Your city council can help you. And here's the number, or I'll phone first for you or say an immigration question in regards to, the word got out, right? Word got out. Well, here's a past director of immigration. I'm going to go to this office. Right? It didn't matter if they lived in the constituency or not, but I got an immigration question. Well, most of the questions were in regards to federal initiatives. Right? So it's permanent residency primarily or visas or thereabouts. And I just go, so I had, so I figured out I need a federal partner. And so, or somebody that understood the federal politics make sure that they're connected. But that was, that was certainly a part of it and I would continue on. But yeah, I go from there.
Munir Haque: [00:23:23] Oh, I think there's a bit of a interesting, I'm not sure if the word's dynamic, but in terms of understanding of the situation from working in all those different perspectives as you did, like actually working outside government, working inside government, and then as an elected official, like, so, you know, understand that, you know, when somebody comes to you with a problem, you've got a fairly large toolbox to draw from to help direct them or help your understanding of the situation. I think a lot of politics, politicians who come into it, you know, from some sort of non-related profession, don't understand it when they walk in, it's kind of getting hit in the face where you think you have all this ability to make change. But having that experience within the administration, you understand everything comes around and what's old is new again. So often politicians have come in and said, we need this change. And administration says there's a reason why we haven't made that change. We've tried it in the past. But to come with that background, I think, and just in our understanding the administration, like there's a whole level of just internal politics just within administration itself, government administration, let alone working with the MLAs.
Munir Haque: [00:24:41] Okay. Next, I kind of wanted to move on to, I think, you know, when we met, I think you were, at that point you were the Minister of Parks, Culture and Sport. And I know that you came out to a lot of the cultural activities throughout the city. And I remember we were at an event and you were one of the guest speakers, one of the dignitaries, and I think I was emceeing that event. And I think before we went on, we were kind of sitting there and talking and I kind of pointed out one of the things I often notice when politicians come out that their speeches are often written by speechwriters, and they come out and they tell the people in the crowd why they came. And I think I told you my advice to you was like, these people already know why they're here. They want to know why you're here and what you can do for them. And I remember at that point, I think every time after that, I always saw you pull out your speech and scratch stuff out. And I think you got, I think that when you were in that role it was much appreciated by people within the kind of the cultural community that you had that willingness to go out and be uncomfortable when you needed to be uncomfortable. But you were always willing to kind of lend an ear type thing and treat everybody equally while you went through that. So that was kind of long preamble to what the question is. And I think--
Mark Docherty: [00:26:08] What's the question? What's the question, Munir?
Munir Haque: [00:26:10] It's more about, like it's about structure. So you were the minister, you were the Minister of Parks, Culture and Sport. If, you know, at the political level, if the decision's made, how does that filter down to the guy who's mowing the lawn? Like so literally, so coming right from the top, people making the decisions, changing the policy, how does that get to the guy who is mowing the lawns or programming the sprinklers? From a parks perspective, I suppose.
Mark Docherty: [00:26:42] Yeah. It's, you have to articulate, you have to make sure that, again, everybody needs to know and why they know. So I'd go out to the, as you said, different events or, for instance, every single, like all the parks. And I'd meet with the actual people that are working on the ground, the people that are actually doing it, and say, you know, what do you think of this? Or, you know, people would look at me and go, I've never been asked before and nobody's ever asked me. And I said, well, you got an opinion, don't you? And they go, yeah. And so they tell me and I did that with, I did that with everybody. Right? I'd say, what do you think? Because the people that are actually, you know, you're tasked with, you know, doing things in regards to the different organizations and they better buy-in. If they don't buy in, the only way they're going to buy in is if, as opposed to just telling them, you're doing this and this is the way it's going to be, that's life. No, it's not the fairest way, is this going to actually work? Can you roll this out? So I'd ask, I'd always ask people what they, you know, what they thought, and then I would take that back. I was lucky to have, you know, great deputy ministers or assistant deputy ministers. And then the staff in my office were always awesome. You know, you need to, they were always on board. And so it was a matter of what are we going to do? They weren't used to the fact that, you know, I was interested, right? I was interested in perspective.
Mark Docherty: [00:28:13] So. And I'd always ask, I'd say, I'm going to ask so and so or I'm going to go to this or I'm going to go to this film set and say, what do you think? And I kind of going, okay, well, I don't know how to staff you or represent you, but off you go. Because I'd just walk away and just start talking to somebody. And I think that's important because it's a little more human, right? It's a little more human when you, when you actually do that. But, yeah, I think in terms of answering your question, it was communication. There was no, there was no debate. It was is this going to work? We're going to try this. Is it going to work in this particular area, this park, this cultural, you know, modality? Is it going to work? Do you see it working? And I'd go from there because they're the ones that actually have to roll it out. So I'd say, what do you think? As opposed to, because deputy ministers, they're going to try to figure it out. They got to figure out a way. How are we going to do this? This is what, this is what the legislature has told us, how're we going to do it? And sometimes I'd just ask, is this even possible? And we'd go from there.
Munir Haque: [00:29:24] I think it kind of speaks a little bit to how, and we'll get into this a little bit more, how government, the way it's run is different than, you know, either a nonprofit or a corporation. Often those corporations and groups, organizations have a clear mandate where you can, where you can tie everything back to that. And government often is a bit of a moving target. You know, you're talking about the best vision to mandate are the ones who are like, they're kind of grassroots. So you start by questioning the people who were implementing the stuff, see if it's possible. And then you form that into policy. And government is often the other way around, is that the people who are furthest away from it are the ones who are creating the policy that need to be implemented. And sometimes it's like one of those games, you know, where you sit in a circle and you whisper something to somebody's ear and it goes around the circle, and by the time it gets back to you, it's something completely different. And that's how policy often happens, is it's made at the top and as it filters down, by the time it hits kind of the bylaw, it's something completely different or the intent behind it is completely different. And that's one of the struggles I think, that there is in government is really articulating the intent and not developing the policy that kind of ties everybody hands, but it's the intent and to kind of work through all the way to the bottom and understanding of what the intent is. And then the policy follows from that.
Mark Docherty: [00:31:04] Yeah. I agree.
Munir Haque: [00:31:06] So I guess the next questions I have are around, I don't know if, so, like, the level of influence to make change that you have or your involvement in kind of the overall governance of provincial politics. But you've operated within the government at, even as an elected official, at different levels. Right? So I think, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but you've served on kind of inter-government committees. I think often there's committees that are made up of politicians that are like on both sides of the, you know, kind of the table type thing. So there's a governance model that works within those committees. How is that different than the model that works within legislature?
Mark Docherty: [00:31:50] Oh, I gotcha. So there's four different committees within the legislature. I served on, there's a human service committee, so I served on it as a member and I was also the chair of the Intergovernmental Affairs and Justice. So I was a chair of that committee. So what happens is different stakeholders, different organizations would want to meet with the committee. And that's, they actually start with I want to meet with the minister and that's all well and good. That's their right. That's the way it should be. But we would buffer that. Right? We're the first meeting that you'd have and then we would send, so they'd meet with Human Service Committee or Intergovernmental Affairs and Justice, and then we would send recommendations to the minister and say, we've met with so and so and here's what we heard. This is what we recommend. And we would go, right, that's all well and good, that's what we would do. And sometimes it's something they can do. Sometimes there's nothing they can do. Sometimes it's tweaking, again, different, like a bill or an amendment to a bill or something. There was always these pieces, but I saw it as a natural piece. Right? People are asking, they want to meet. Okay, let's let's meet. You need to see somebody. And so it would be a number of, it was a number of MLAs. There was no, there's no cabinet ministers that are part of the committee. This was all, this is all MLAs.
Mark Docherty: [00:33:30] And you're right, in terms of both sides that sit on the committee. So, and I found that to be very helpful because I have always believed that in any democracy you need a strong opposition. You need an opposition that's, you know, that's actually a piece of things that I actually understand their job, their job is to criticize. Their job is to is to stand up and be the sober second thought or however you want to articulate it. And, but they're vital to any democracy. So I was interested in what they had to say because that's just the way it is. They should, they need to articulate and go, okay, where is this, you know, one of the questions would be, where is this going to go? Because they're not in government, right? They're opposition. But where is it going to go? Well, we're going to set it to the minister. Okay. And then their questions would be in the chamber, for instance, the rotunda, they'd have questions in regards to, you know, what's going on with this and where's the piece of this, how is it going? But that's their right. They need to ask those hard, tough questions. So yeah, I've always believed that. But I welcome the fact that they were part of a committee. They needed to be a part of the committee. And that's just the way it is. But yeah.
Munir Haque: [00:34:53] Yeah, I think what I went, the first time I heard about that committee level, it seemed like a good way to govern. That you've got a committee made up of, that's nonpartisan or that shows a broader perspective of what the issue is. And I guess a bit of the question is, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I would think that those committee meetings are probably a little bit more civil than when they go into the, actually go into legislature? Like, I can't imagine you guys sitting in the, in one of your, you know, kind of meeting rooms and acting the way you do when you get into the house.
Mark Docherty: [00:35:34] Yeah. They are, they are civil in terms of those meetings because you're there for the different organizations. You're there for them and you're listening to them. So yeah, so it never turned anywhere but civil. So I, but in terms of the temperature of the chamber of the legislature, however you want to term it, yeah, I didn't understand, like the I was never really involved in the yelling back and forth, calling each other names. But as speaker, it was, it was a different perspective. I don't think anybody, unless you're sitting in that chair, I don't think you really understand what it's like. And, I mean, I'm extremely happy and privileged and lucky to, you know, to have been elected speaker. And it was, I think, how it works is you're elected by the members, right? So it's 50% plus one. And so whoever puts your name forward, they submit their name. And here's the list., let's say, I think it was 5 or 6 people that said, I want to run for speaker after we had a member that ended up being, he was a speaker and he ended up being, running for federal politics. So he had to give up the the role of speaker.
Mark Docherty: [00:37:06] And so there's a vacancy. There's only two ways there's a vacancy. Well, there's a couple ways, but one is you resign your seat as speaker. The other one is after every election, every election, you elect a new speaker. And so you put your name forward, and then I, you have to contact every single MLA and say I'm running for speaker, can I count on your support? That's basically it. And so then you hope you get 50% plus one, and I had no idea how it was going to work out. And so, and it's a secret ballot and it's in the chamber, so everyone lines up and they vote. And then, and if it's not 50% plus one, the one in the bottom falls off. And now it's four, now it's three, now it's two. Right? Vote again. Oh yeah we got a winner. Okay and it was me. And you got to, the leader of the opposition and the premier, they drag you up and that's a historical piece, right? Because you don't really want the job or you have, you feign interest or something, and they drag you up and put you in there and away you go. So suddenly I was the speaker and yeah, it was certainly entertaining.
Mark Docherty: [00:38:25] But, yeah. People are, it's difficult because you recognize everybody and you recognize somebody and that they stand up, now their microphone is live because Hans, who sits above you, they wait for you to recognize. Then they hit their microphone and make it live. And there's a little button, a little light that pops on. And now their microphone is live. So they're allowed to speak and then, and all, it's supposed to all go through the speaker, right? So people are addressing you because they're talking to you or supposed to be talking to you, and now the opposition stands up and you recognize them and they come back and and away you go. That's the live microphones, I get that, but now the crosstalk. Okay, now they're, so everybody's honorable. Okay, you got to come from a perspective of everybody's honorable and they're here for the right reasons, okay? That's true. You know, when you walk into that chamber, everybody's honorable, nobody's a liar, okay? Everybody is sincere. You got to come from that perspective. Everybody is honorable. And now, okay, but everybody's trying to call each other names, and they're, so how do you call somebody a liar without calling him a liar? Right? So somebody will say, well, the minister is making stuff up. Making stuff up. Is that the same as the word liar? Of course it is. Of course it is.
Mark Docherty: [00:40:04] So now you're basically have a thesaurus, right? And you're trying to figure things out. So all the words that you can't use are written down. And here's the words, and they're in a book, you can't use the following words. And everybody, as I said, everybody's honorable and away you go. So as speaker you have, you want to keep the debate going. You want to have people talking without yelling and screaming and calling each other names. How do you do that? So if you stand up and you say something in order, your intent is to create disorder, okay? And that's up to the speaker to decide if that's what you've done. Your intent was to create disorder. That's, right, that's out of order. So it's, and now you got all this stuff going on and you're listening and you're trying to figure it all out, and it's tough, I'll tell you, it's tough. And nobody, like, who likes the speaker? Nobody. Even though you're supposed to be a part of the, you know, the governing body, the government, that, they have the majority of the vote. Right? So they're going to elect, they're going to elect the speaker. But, so they, there's an expectation that, you know, you're going to help the government. No you're not. You're there to be impartial. You're an impartial member. That's the whole point.
Mark Docherty: [00:41:30] So, yeah, it is what it is. I, to get reelected as a speaker is, it's hardly ever happened. And I ran so I was elected in, as I said, 2016, March I think, until the election in 2020. And then I ran for speaker again. Okay. So I ran for speaker in 2020 after the election, and I was voted out. So there was 6, I think there was 6 or 7 of us, and it was down to me and the present speaker and the last ballot and he won. And you just say, yep, that's the way it is. As I said, the voter is always right. And they voted. So, and they never tell you what the vote actually was, the percentage, and that's kept by the clerk's office. So, he won and he's been the speaker, he'll be the speaker to the end of this term until the election. And then they'll vote again in 2024. They'll vote again after, on the first day of session. So yeah. That's basically it. It's, I'll tell you it's an interesting job, that's for sure.
Munir Haque: [00:42:54] Okay. It's one of the questions I'm interested in is, you know, again, you've worked at different levels within the party itself and just talking about internal party governance, you know, so you were a member. You've been a member of caucus and you've been, I guess a member of caucus is automatically, or ministers are automatically a member of caucus. Is that...?
Mark Docherty: [00:43:22] Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Docherty: [00:43:25] Caucus is all the, for instance, there's the government caucus and there's an opposition caucus, government caucus is every single, every single MLA that's elected, which includes, you might be a cabinet minister, the only person that doesn't, and the premier, the only person doesn't show up to caucus meetings is the speaker. Okay? Speaker doesn't. So you become very, very isolated very quickly. But the opposition has a caucus and the government has a caucus. They meet every day before session.
Munir Haque: [00:43:56] Okay. So if you're a cabinet member versus just a member, you know, what's your level of influence or involvement in party governance?
Mark Docherty: [00:44:06] Oh, I think, well, caucus allows everybody to have a voice. So as a caucus member, different ministers would bring up an issue and say, we've got the following issue to discuss, we're thinking about it. And then it's basically, what do you think? And you just, you get on the speaker's list and you just, you say, this is what I believe or this is what I think. And you always have to be thinking about your constituents, right? So what might they think? And you go from there, or have you heard anything in relation to this up to this point? Sometimes you have, sometimes you haven't. And, but ministers would bring it forward in terms of the actual cabinet, it, that's a separate meeting. So they have cabinet meetings separately and they have those, well every week for sure. And they will talk about different things and they'll bring up the same, like different issues, and they would talk about it as a cabinet. And then there's other pieces like what can we, can we afford this. And so that's another piece, that's the Treasury Board and the Treasury Board would say, this is how much money we got. And they would tell the Ministry of Finance and away they'd go, but, yeah, there's lots of layers to all of this. But caucus would be the opportunity to raise your voice and say what you thought, but the issues would be brought forward, whether or not that's always listened to, it depends. Right. It's, away we go from there, but I'd, it was an opportunity to say what you thought and it was brought forward. So in terms of that opportunity, it was right there.
Munir Haque: [00:46:01] Okay. I guess for the last question, and this is where, you know, feel free to use some colorful language. I guess the question is what's wrong with provincial governance and how, in your mind, what's wrong with it? How can it be improved? Or is it too steeped in tradition?
Mark Docherty: [00:46:17] Well, it is steeped, right? I mean, like tradition is, we borrow from Britain primarily in terms of the legislature. We certainly look at Canadian politics and go, you know, where does this fit? And we take in our, a little bit of our direction from there. The rules, as I said, the rules are in place by the members. I'd like to see, I'd like to see a better working relationship between parties. There's no reason to yell back and forth. You're all there, you have a job, you're all there for a reason. And the people of the province, the constituents, the voters, they expect things to be better. There's nothing worse than having a school group come in, a school group from your community, from your constituency, and they're sitting up in the gallery, and they're there for question period, and after question period you go down and you meet them, right? So you go down and see the school group. They have questions and they're kind of going why did you act like that? You know, we have to go through anti-bullying courses at school, and yet you act exactly like that, you act like bullies. And I'd go, yeah, I can understand that. And so you do your best to answer questions of children. And there's nothing more honest than a child, right? They are bare-bones honest. And so they'll say things that are on their mind and you got to answer. What's the answer to that question? We got to do better. Right? And every single MLA has a school group that comes in at least once a sitting term.
Mark Docherty: [00:48:13] And there's, you only sit for 65 days, right? 25 days and 40 days. That's fall sessions, 25 sitting days, and the spring session is 40 days. That's it, 65 sitting days. And you still got to be an MLA. And of course, represent your constituents. But I never lost sight of the fact that here's kids telling me, why do you act like this, or get it together, and I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree any more than that. I'd sit and I'd listen, I'd go, you're right. Because the answer is you're right. So if nothing else, I would, I would like better decorum. Right? There's absolutely no debate. I would want people to treat each other better, but understand democracy and understand the reason for, number one, an opposition. And respect an opposition. Respect the fact that they're here for a reason, and you think you'd like to be sitting as opposition with now they've got 14 seats total, 14 out of 61 to do their job it'd be extremely difficult, you know, to do that job with only 14 members. They had 12 before the by-elections. Right? And I'd go, and I do that, right, I do respect the job that they do and I think that's important. It's important for everybody that's involved in politics at a provincial level to again respect your adversary. Period.
Munir Haque: [00:49:55] Well thanks for that. You got respect for your adversary and kids know how to do it.
Mark Docherty: [00:49:59] They know better. They know better than politicians most of the time, right?
Munir Haque: [00:50:04] Okay on that, Mark. Thanks a lot for joining us on the podcast today. And it was a great conversation. And I'll just kind of tie it up right now.
So for those of you that are listening, if you want to learn more about me and Action Edge Executive development, you can do that on our website at A E E NOW.com. I will have some forms there that you can fill out if you want me to reach out to you, or if you have an idea for a guest or a subject that we can cover. We also have a free board self-evaluation form for you and your board to fill out together. It'll give you a bit of a quick temperature check on your board health. As usual, don't forget to hit like, share and subscribe to The Boardroom 180 Podcast to help us grow and bring you more governance insights. We're recording from the BushySix Studios in Calgary, Alberta with production assistance from Astronomic Audio. You can find their information in the links and AEX forms in our show notes. We've come full circle to conclude this episode of The Boardroom 180 Podcast. Goodbye and good governance.