Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson | Ep 12: Sukie Baxter

Many of us dream about - or at the very least wonder about - the phenomen of becoming a YouTuber. Actually making a living out of content creation. Many of us also dream of being able to positively influence the lives of others this way and spread knowledge of healing and well being for the common good while, well being successful. Sukie Baxter, whose work on explaining the autonomic nervous system and how it can be harnessed to work more efficiently for health and happiness, has done just that. Her views on YouTube have gone into the millions without having to resort to gossip, trolling celebrities, car crashes or even cute dogs riding bicycles. Sukie's work is just flat out good - helpful, easy to understand and implement and actually helping one feel and do better.

It wasn't always this way - Sukie's path to Self Actualization was, like everyone's - hard earned. Becoming a Rolfer (a lesser known but highly effective form of bodywork) in her early 20s she built a practice over almost two decades that while successful, became stressful, over scheduled, and eventually drained her of energy. Then Covid hit and in one instant her whole business evaporated.That's when, born from a desire to do something productive in that time of universal suffering, Sukie began to put out informative YouTube videos on how to make your body and nervous system your friend not your foe. Now, four years later, Sukie has achieved an enviable level of freedom by doing good.

But that isn't all. In this fascinating podcast she shares with us not just her personal and professional journey but also how the autonomic nervous system actually works, what the nuts and bolts of human happiness are, and even how to make YouTube videos that actually get seen. Listen on people, Sukie has much to teach us.

YouTube Tools mentioned:
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Contact Sukie Baxter
https://wholebodyrevolution.com
https://youtube.com/sukiebaxter
hello@wholebodyrevolution.com

Find our other shows and programs:
https://rupertisaacson.com

What is Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson?

Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.

Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.

You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

and most importantly, find joy.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Welcome back to Live Free, Ride
Free, where we talk to people who are

living self actualized lives, living
life on their own terms and making

a go of it in whichever way they are
interested in following their passions.

Making a livelihood.

What can we learn from these people?

It's what we all aspire to do this week
I've got Suki Baxter now if you don't

know who she is just go on YouTube and
type her in you're gonna find some videos

that an awful lot of people watch and
I like many of you I'm always a bit

Curious about how do these people get
so many people to watch their videos?

I mean, yes, their content's
amazing and her content is amazing.

We're going to talk about it.

So obviously you can't get
that without amazing content.

How do they take it beyond that?

How do they make a living from it?

More than that.

How did they get to the point
where they were making that

amazing content in the first place?

So what is Ziggybax's amazing content?

Well, it has to do with
your nervous system.

It has to do with your brain and it
has to do with Feeling better about

stuff in a real way not in an ephemeral
way I don't want to give too much away

because Suki's gonna talk us through some
pretty interesting stuff about how to

live happier Not just to live free ride
free more self actualized, but really

genuinely some secrets of happiness here
So without further ado welcome Suki.

Can you tell us please?

Sukie Baxter: Who you are.

Thank you so much for having me.

I am an embodiment coach.

I, as you said, have a YouTube channel
that has gotten quite a few followers.

And I came into this work
through the door of the body.

So, I spent about 15 years having a
clinical body work practice where I

worked 1 on 1 with clients and in the
process of understanding how bodies work.

A lot of people who came to me had a lot
of physical pain and postural complaints.

I had to really start asking myself some
questions about where the symptoms were

coming from and all of my questions.

Continuously led me back
to the nervous system.

So, over the course of the 15 years
that I was working on people, I

just kept coming back to the nervous
system as the foundational piece that

was contributing to a lot of these
challenges that I was seeing in people.

And when I really began to delve
into the nervous system, I.

Discovered that it was related to far
more than just your physical posture

and pain or lack thereof, but really
to how you were experiencing how person

experiences life, whether that's in a
positive way, a pleasurable, pleasant

way, or whether it creates a life that
is challenging and full of struggle.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, you
said very Quickly there.

You had a physical therapy practice.

What did you do?

What were you doing?

What was your hands on?

Were you a massage therapist?

Were you, what

Sukie Baxter: were you?

Yeah, so I am technically a licensed
massage therapist and I practice a form

of body work that is called rolfing,
which some people may have heard of.

Some people may not have, it's got
kind of a grassroots following.

But rolfing is a.

Way of approaching the body
from a structural perspective.

So really looking at how all the parts
and pieces of your body work together to

create optimal posture and, and movement.

So when a person would come in, I would
do a posture and movement assessment,

have a conversation with them observe them
walking, standing, moving in various ways.

And then approach helping them
to be more integrated and to have

basically less friction in their
movement from a very holistic way.

So, oftentimes, when we go to a
practitioner, a specialist for

maybe we have a sore shoulder or a
sore hip a lot of times the work is

focused on that region of the body.

So you go in, you say,
I have a sore shoulder.

Your doctor looks at your shoulder.

Why is this shoulder sore?

When someone would come to me,
I would look at their shoulder.

And also, how is that shoulder
connected to a ribcage?

And a torso and how is that
rib cage balanced on the

pelvis and so on and so forth.

So really backing up and looking
at it from a systems level

Rupert Isaacson: approach.

And when you do this Rolfing thing, are
you, is it like a massage and that you're

going in and you sort of squeeze with your
hands in the way that we think of, or, you

know, put your elbow on or whatever the
way we think of as a massage therapist?

Or are you doing something else?

Something more specific?

Yeah,

Sukie Baxter: I think that's
a really great question.

So, yeah, a lot of times it looks
like classic body work, right?

So some, you have somebody come in,
they, they're standing in a room,

you do a movement posture assessment,
and then typically I would get them

on a table and do various things
that look like massage, right?

Applying pressure.

I may have them move while
I'm applying pressure.

But yeah, there's,
there's physical contact.

So it is manual manipulation,
manual therapy, however you want

to classify that which is why
it's classified under massage.

But the experience of it is
usually a little bit different,

which is something that's a little
bit hard to verbally convey.

But when people experience it, they're
like, oh, yeah, this is different.

But really, I, I think what's
really interesting is that this is

what led me to the nervous system.

Right?

So when somebody gets.

A body work of any kind.

What's really going on there?

And what I was noticing was that I
would have these clients come in.

Some of these clients, I swear to
you, just being in the room with me,

they would start to change and shift,
like just having a conversation.

There was no physical contact whatsoever.

When these people started to
change, it was so easy to have

their bodies shift other people.

I'm telling you, like no amount
of pressure that I applied

seemed to have an effect.

And that's really where I
started asking the question.

Okay.

I've been told that what I'm
doing here is like breaking

up adhesions in their fascia.

So rolfing uses a lot of myofascial
release, myofascial type techniques.

And I was, I was told in my training,
like we're, we're doing all these

things to break up adhesions or
separate different sheets of fascia.

So they glide, but all
these mechanical things.

And I was like, but.

I'm applying pressure to all these
different people with differing results.

So something else might be going on here.

And I just, even at the inception, I was
like, I think it's in the nervous system.

I didn't know.

I didn't have a lot of you know, this is,
this is BG, as I say, like, before Google.

So there wasn't nearly as
much information available.

And I, I didn't know where to go
and who to ask, but I just started

Thinking that there seems to be
a nervous system component here.

It seems to have something to
do with how a person senses the

contact that is being applied.

And over time, as I learned a lot more
and learned how the body works, I was

like, yeah, actually, that is true.

And I filled in many, many, many holes and
gaps and knowledge and I'm still learning

as we all are, because we're still
discovering how all of this works, but.

But over and over again, I kept
coming back to, yeah, it's in the

sensing, it's in the body's ability
to feel and to have that sensory

information processed by the brain.

That's what's actually changing the
map of the body and the posture,

but there's also all these other
wonderful effects as, you know, as you

mentioned, that make us so much happier.

When our nervous system is optimally
functioning and that was the other piece

of it was that some of my clients would
come in and I would just see their entire

lives change where people would You
know, leave really toxic relationships.

They would leave careers that
were burning them out and making

them miserable and unhealthy.

They would make these dramatic
changes in their lives.

And it seemed coincidental.

It seemed to, it seemed to coincide
with the work that we were doing and

I want us to know, okay, so why are
these people like, really coming into

their own, really having more agency
over themselves, really Finding a way

to follow what feels good for them and
create that life that makes them happy.

Like, how is this physical contact
creating that kind of a change?

And again, it led me
to the nervous system.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So before we go to the nervous
system, it's interesting.

I mean, we, we, this podcast called
Live Free, Ride Free, and it sounds

like you are helping people to do
that, to liberate themselves and self

actualize through the nervous system.

We're going to go back to that.

And I want to know how, however, there's
some questions I've got based on some

things that you said, which some terms
I want to clarify, because I'm sure

that a lot of listeners might not know.

So we should tell them what is fascia,
what is something that is myofascial, and

when you talk about sensing, what is that?

So can we start with fascia?

What is fascia?

Sukie Baxter: Yeah.

So fascia is a type of tissue.

It's a connective tissue within the body.

It's one of the most pervasive
tissues within the body.

You have quite a lot of it.

Oftentimes you will hear People say
that it wraps around things like

wraps around the muscle bellies
and kind of is under your skin.

So it covers things, but it
actually permeates your body

down to the cellular level.

So if we could magically put you,
Rupert, into some kind of a solution

that would dissolve everything in your
body, that was not fascia, we would

have a 3d imprint of Rupert, which is
different from a lot of things, right?

So if we just had your skeletal structure,
you know, we would, we would see your

bones, but we wouldn't actually see your.

Your facial features and your, you
know, the musculature of your body

and how all of that was developed.

If we just had your skin, we would
see the outside, but there'd be no,

you know, in no inside no innards.

We wouldn't really be able to know what
the inside organization of your body

looked like fashion gives us all of that.

It would give us almost like a spider
web, like, imprint of your body.

And fascia has been something that people
have been looking at as there's, there's

quite a lot of cells in fascia that sense.

So we'll talk about that in a second.

That sense where we are in space,
that sense stretching and vibration

and movement in our bodies.

And so, fascia is kind of the organ of.

Consciousness or interoception, or
people quantify that differently, but

it, it's a, it's a type of tissue that
both supports our body and then gives

us a lot of information about our
body state and our body's movement.

Rupert Isaacson: So you say an organ,
do you think of it as an organ?

Sukie Baxter: Well, I don't know
that it classically is considered

an organ that's just a word
that people use to describe it.

Right, but do you,

Rupert Isaacson: do you feel that
that's an apt description with it,

with the work that you've done?

Sukie Baxter: I think it's an organ
similarly to the way skin is an organ.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Like an internal
skin, an internal sense of skin.

Sukie Baxter: Exactly.

But it doesn't it doesn't do
the same things as skin, right?

It doesn't sweat.

It doesn't do all of those things,
because that would be awkward if you're

sweating around your stomach or something.

Yeah, exactly.

So I, so I don't know if like, if
we were being like really, you know,

linear, like Western medicine type of
scientific, is it technically an organ?

I don't know if but yeah, you could
say it's an organ of consciousness

or an organ of something.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so consciousness.

So is it, so when you were describing
it, it sounds, the first thing

that I thought was it sounds wet.

It sounds like a watery thing.

And I remember from the days when
I used to hunt deer and things like

that, and I would skin them and
you would, you know, peel back the

skin and then there would be this.

Jelly like thing that was like a bubble
wrap around things and I presume that

that is the fascia or part of it.

Anyway it was pretty wet.

I suppose our bodies are, you
know, 75 percent water or whatever,

but it's interesting that you
talk about consciousness there.

Do you feel that your fascia is a
conductive part of the body that,

that conducts information from
one part of the body to the other?

And if so, how does it differ?

I know I'm going down
a bit of a rabbit hole.

How does it differ from
your nervous system?

Or do you think it's part of?

Sukie Baxter: Yeah, I
think, I think it is.

I think everything is
everything to be honest.

So, so, so, and this is kind of, I think a
question that I come up against a lot in a

lot of different areas where people like,
well, you know, they look at this piece of

us now, like, this seems really important.

They get really fixated on that piece.

Fascia is an important piece, but
it's not important on its own.

In my opinion.

I think it's important in that
it's connected to a system.

It's it's sensing.

Yeah.

Our internal environment, it's
sensing our external environment,

and then it's conveying that to our
brain via nervous system processes.

If we didn't have those nervous
system processes to receive that

information, it wouldn't really
matter that we had the fascia.

So the whole system is what's important.

Rupert Isaacson: Is it a bit like
the silica in a master keyboard?

I don't

Sukie Baxter: know.

I don't know how keywords
are put together.

Maybe.

But, but I, I think people get sort
of like, aha, this is the thing.

And they get really fixated on that.

And that is very it's very science based.

It's, you know, science seeks to kind
of take things apart to their smallest

component, which is really beneficial.

It helps us to understand things.

But we, we often kind of get
fixated on these smaller pieces and

lose sight of the bigger, Picture
so fascia is part of our system.

You asked about myofascia.

So when you say myofascial
myo means muscle.

So it's muscle fascial.

So you're talking about the, the
muscle and the fascia together.

So, myofascial release,
what that literally means is

we're releasing the muscle.

Like lengthening, you know, relaxing,
reducing tension and we're stretching the

fashion, but that, that brings me full
circle back around to what I was saying,

which is that what I was taught was, you
know, we're, we're, we're doing that.

We're stretching, we're mechanically,
like, if you think about like a plastic

bag, like a grocery bag, if you stick
your thumb in it and you kind of stretch

it out how it, how it kind of creates
a pocket or a pucker in the, in the

plastic, that was how I was taught.

We were affecting the body.

But my, my actual clinical experience did
not bear that out because I was like, I'm

the same person for all of these people.

I'm applying, you know, pressure
from my body to their body, but

I'm getting different results.

So why is it working for this person
with a feather touch and that person

with extreme amounts of pressure?

We're not having the same results.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, and this
process goes on for how long?

You're, you're rolfing, you've got
your practice, people are coming

in, they're lying on your table,
you're, you're, you're noticing

all these different things.

Some of them are having these huge
life, positive life changing events.

Some you don't even have to touch and
you seem to get a positive effect.

Some, no matter how much
you touch them, not so much.

How long is that going on before
you go, I want to do a deep

dive into the nervous system?

Sukie Baxter: It was an ongoing process.

It was more that every time I tried
to learn something new, I sort of

came back to the nervous system.

So, I started with studying a lot
of energy work because I was like,

is there an energy work component?

And I think there is but it was,
it was ultimately unsatisfying for

me because I, it still felt like.

Okay.

But it's very random.

How do I actually, yeah, exactly.

I love energy work.

I think it's really great, but I
just didn't feel like it was tangible

enough for me to feel confident
that when a person came into me

and I also do this work on horses
or have done this work on horses.

So when, when a human would come in
or when I was working with a horse,

I was like, how can I kind of.

I don't know tangibly that
I'm having an impact here.

And energy work was just, like,
vague is a really good word.

And some people are, you know, they
feel it and they're really into it.

And other people, it's like,
they can't access at all.

So, so, so That was a piece of it.

But then also the nervous system runs on,
you know, electricity, which is energy.

So again, I was like, okay, let's
go back to the nervous system.

And I just sort of everything that I
did kept bringing me back to the nervous

system is our essentially our human or
mammalian really, because not just human,

but our mammalian operating system.

And if we're affecting that, if we can
understand how we're affecting the nervous

system then Like you said, we can really
liberate people because the other thing

that I kept running into in my studies was
these sort of like limiting blueprints of

how to, how to control your thoughts or
how to excavate, you know, quote, limiting

beliefs, or, you know, basically how to
control yourself in a way to be happy.

And.

And that didn't seem to really
work for me because, because

not all people are the same.

For me, I wanted to strip away all the
layers of what a person isn't so that they

have the ability to grow into what they
naturally and inherently are, which is

going to look different for you than for
me, than, you know, for, for everybody

out there, we're all individuals.

So let's

Rupert Isaacson: go from vague to vagal.

Tell us what you found out
about the nervous system.

Sukie Baxter: So when I landed on
what is called polyvagal theory,

and I can define that term, but
it's called polyvagal theory.

It really My mother's

Rupert Isaacson: name is Polly
and she can be a bit vague.

It's true sometimes.

Sukie Baxter: And probably in many ways.

When I landed on that, I It
seemed to really map with what

I was observing in people.

So, polyvagal theory is a
theory that was put forth by a

gentleman named Steven Porges.

And what Steven Porges found is that
there's a very large nerve, which we

did know about, but he didn't discover
the nerve, but he found that this very

large nerve called the vagus nerve
it's called the vagus nerve because

vagus comes from the vagus nerve.

It's not Las Vegas Vegas.

It's, I was, I was hoping it's
from the Latin word for wandering

and it's a very long nerve.

So it, it wanders from your cranium
down through your neck through

your upper torso and then into your
viscera deep into your viscera.

And so if you look up, you know, an
image of the vagus nerve, it's this,

this big tangly long wandering thing.

And what what Stephen Porges found is
that this vagus nerve is it functions

to help regulate our stress response.

And his theory is that there are multiple
branches of this vagus nerve and that

these branches have different functions,
which is why it's called polyvagal theory.

So poly coming from many.

The word for many vagal from
the vagus nerve and then

theory because it is a theory.

And I always want to emphasize that
because there's a lot of people

talking about exactly how this all
works physiologically within the body.

We're still learning.

I think in 10 years, we're going
to know a lot more and we may

have a completely different.

Map at that time.

It's growing.

It's evolving.

But it's a, it's a theory.

And so I always like to keep in
mind that the, that it's a map.

It's not the territory, which is
the common saying in lots of fields,

but it's common in body work.

The map is not the territory.

So.

It's just, it just gives us a
framework for beginning to understand

the stress response and it does map.

very cleanly with what I and a lot of
other practitioners of various fields have

found observationally in our clients in
terms of how stress functions and what

it does to us and how that is observed.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us the sort
of breakdown 101 polyvagal for dummies?

Yeah.

Sukie Baxter: So the polyvagal theory
the, the simple breakdown is that

you basically have three states
in polyvagal theory, you have the

ventral vagal ventral meaning front.

So this is the front
branch of your vagus nerve.

Stephen Porges identified this as the
branch of your vagus nerve that is

responsible for social engagement.

So the ability to connect to other
people and animals, the ability

to have empathy, the ability to co
regulate meaning that we can kind of.

Symbiotically feel what the
other is feeling and come into

a similar state as another

Rupert Isaacson: person.

And I'm listening to reggae and having
a beer and feeling iry and having a hug.

I'm in my bedroom.

There you go.

Okay.

Sukie Baxter: Yes.

Cool.

Got it.

Absolutely.

It's, it's basically where
all the good stuff in life is.

The, the, the love, the joy, the
happiness, the, you know, the excitement,

the, all the, all the things that we
think of as things we want to experience.

Rupert Isaacson: That's all
down the front of my tummy.

Sukie Baxter: Ventral.

Front of your tummy.

Ventral bagel, according to the, gorgeous.

Yep.

Then you have your
sympathetic nervous system.

So, your sympathetic nervous
system is responsible for your

fight or flight response, which
a lot of people are Is ventral

Rupert Isaacson: parasympathetic?

Sukie Baxter: Yeah, so your vagus
nerve is the main nerve of your

parasympathetic nervous system.

Although I will, like,
little asterisk here.

There is research that is finding
that the vagus nerve can have an

activating effect when stimulated.

So I, I'm still looking into this
because I'm, it's really hard to get

a grip on what exactly that means.

Rupert Isaacson: But for
dummies at this stage, front

ventral parasympathetic, good.

Yes.

And then, so the other
one is dorsal, right?

Sukie Baxter: Yes, so your vagus
nerve is parasympathetic, your

sympathetic is fight or flight.

Your parasympathetic is rest and digest,
your sympathetic is fight or flight.

If you can just kind of get that piece
down, that's the simple explanation.

But

Rupert Isaacson: are there not two
branches of the vagal nerve doing both?

Right.

So front one ventral, back one dorsal.

Sukie Baxter: Correct.

So, so if we go down one step from
your ventral vagal, we've got your

sympathetic nervous system, different
branch of your nervous system,

but that's your fight or flight.

This is what people think of when
they think about, I'm stressed.

This is tension.

This is anxiety.

This is agitation.

This is, you know, like clenching
jaw, tight neck and shoulders, all of

that stuff lives in the sympathetic.

It's a, this is a mobilizing
branch of your nervous system.

So it's what gets us up
and doing stuff basically.

Hey, there's a threat to your survival.

You better take action or you're going
to get eaten by the lion which is bad.

So one step down from that, you have what
you mentioned, which is your dorsal bagel.

the dorsal branch of your vagus nerve.

So the dorsal vagal response or
dorsal vagal states dorsal being

like a dorsal fin, meaning the back.

So you've got your ventral front
dorsal back of your vagus nerve.

And this is your shutdown or immobilizing
branch of your nervous system.

You can think about this
like you're playing possum.

And like you mentioned, the vagus
nerve is the parasympathetic nerve.

Parasympathetic can be I'm connected
to another person, but it can also be

I'm shutting you down because you've
been in sympathetic for so long that

we need to pull the emergency brake
or your heart's going to explode.

You cannot live in
sympathetic all the time.

We are meant to have a sympathetic
response to dispatch the threat.

You either run away from it
and survive or you fight it.

And survive, or you die which,
at which point, game over.

It's supposed to be

Rupert Isaacson: over pretty quickly.

It's

Sukie Baxter: supposed to
end, and then we discharge it.

Unfortunately for humans, because
of the way we live in this very

contrived world we have a lot of
stimulation coming at us all the time.

Just a lot of noise, a lot of sensory
noise and just a lot, and we even have

mental stress, which is not, I don't
think zebras sit around worrying about

how they're going to pay their taxes.

I don't know, I haven't really
chatted with a lot of zebras, but

I think it's probably unlikely.

So these things are all essentially
threats to our survival that keep us.

In sympathetic quite a lot.

If you stay in that state over
a prolonged period of time, it

does a lot of really bad things.

So short term stress is very beneficial.

I think that's 1 of the
misnomers of stress is the

people think it's always bad.

Short term stress can actually
activate your immune system.

It's how you you know,
get over being sick.

It can, it does a lot of really
good things in short duration.

Right.

For prolonged or chronic stress is
very, very damaging to our health.

It decreases our brain matter, it
unravels our telomeres, it does

all kinds of horrible things.

What's a telomere?

A telomere.

That's a good question.

A telomere is let me find
the actual definition because

I am going to get it wrong.

It is a compound structure
at the end of a chromosome.

So it's a structure inside of our
nervous system that basically They

protect our body from aging and
they naturally unravel over time.

But what, when you have chronic
stress, they unravel more quickly.

So it accelerates aging.

It accelerates degeneration
within your body.

It accelerates the, you know, we,
we have a natural degradation over

time of our body as it copies itself.

And we produce new cells.

Each Xerox copy is a little bit
less accurate, a little more fuzzy.

But when, when.

We have chronic stress.

Those telomeres do, as I
understand it, get shorter.

How do we spell telomere?

Telomere is TEL T-E-L-O-M-E-R.

Rupert Isaacson: Etel.

T-E-L-O-M-E-R-E?

Yes.

Telomere.

Okay, cool.

Interesting.

All right.

Yes.

Something I didn't know.

Okay, good.

So by the way, just I have
a quick question to clarify.

You're saying that the
ventral vagal nerve.

is a one branch of the vagal nerve.

But you see, I couldn't tell if you're
talking about the dorsal as something

that's not the vagal nerve, but surely are
they not two branches of the same nerve?

One is about feeling good, one is
about feeling bad, effectively.

Sukie Baxter: It's, yeah, I mean, yes,
there are two branches of the same nerve.

Okay.

That's, that's the whole polyvagal, right?

Multiple branches.

Rupert Isaacson: And I've got one
down the front, one down the back.

In general, my front one is
associated with feel good.

In general, my back one
is associated with not.

Sukie Baxter: Yes.

I, I'd say, I, I'm, I'm always
hesitant to use the words good and bad.

One is a little bit more pleasant and
one is a little bit more unpleasant.

Rupert Isaacson: But they're
both there to, to serve the

function to keep you alive.

Sukie Baxter: And yeah, and,
and, and I, I think it's really

important to say that there's no.

State of your nervous system.

That's wrong or bad.

And I think this is where like, I get a
lot of people saying, well, I, I've done

some work to heal my nervous system and
I felt better for a short period of time.

And then and then I, I felt anxious
again, or I felt depressed again,

or I felt whatever again or I felt
lethargic or I felt exhausted.

And this seems wrong.

Like I I'm doing it wrong, or
it isn't working or whatever.

They're, you know, whatever they
determine is the story around that.

We need all of our nervous system states.

We, they're there for a reason.

And so the goal is not to get rid of
any of these states or to live, you

know, eternally in ventral vagal.

That would be great.

But when that lion comes around
and you're in ventral vagal,

you're gonna be like, hey, dude.

Yeah, pretty kitty.

Can I pet you?

And you're gonna get eaten.

Like we need our sympathetic response.

We need these aspects
of our nervous system.

The goal isn't to get rid of them.

The goal is just to not get

Rupert Isaacson: stuck in them.

Right.

Got it.

And as you say, you know, a shot
of adrenaline, a shot of cortisol

to make you act, not think,
get yourself out of trouble.

Sometimes that could even be fun if you
enjoy a dangerous sport or something like

that, but you don't want to live there.

Why, apart from the unraveling of
telomeres, And I also know that

cortisol, the stress hormone, is
a neurotoxin, so that obviously is

toxic for the body over too much time.

What else does stress do over time?

You mentioned this word,
friction, early on.

Is it tied to that?

Is stress tied to friction in the body?

And is friction tied to this
nervous system response?

Sukie Baxter: Yeah, so this is where,
this is I spent a lot of years trying

to figure this out because we didn't
have the information we have today.

It's actually really funny to me to see
how much body mind information is around

right now, because for years and years,
I was like, I think there's something

going on with the body talking to the
mind and people thought it was crazy.

They were, they just like,
they could not get there.

And now it's, we take it for
granted, I think by and large

there's a collective understanding.

And so when you ask about like.

Stress and friction.

1 of so our bodies are not these just
machines that carry our brains around.

They are expressing our
state of being all the time.

But they are also communicating
inwardly to our brain.

So the state of your body tells your brain
something about what's going on for you.

It tells you, it tells
your it tells your brain.

I'm safe.

I'm not safe.

At its essence.

I'm either safe or I'm not safe.

And that's

Rupert Isaacson: what the brain needs to
know moment to moment as a bottom line.

Sukie Baxter: Correct.

And that's how it determines
your nervous system state.

We don't choose our nervous system states.

Our brain, it's in a non conscious
process, assesses a whole bunch of data

that it's getting beneath our awareness.

And it then measures that
with your past experience.

Past experiences and any conditioning
you may have and kind of, you get

this, like, I think of it like a little
computer printout, like, not safe, you

know, so, and then there's like, someone
pushes the panic button and that's your

sympathetic nervous system or safe.

And someone's like, okay, we
can go into rest and digest.

Let's get a good night's sleep
at a very, very basic level.

It's, it's more complex than that,
but, but I just want to say, go ahead.

So on the, on the question of like tension
and stress and friction, if your body is

tense, which is what happens when you're
in sympathetic, then you're sort of in

this like feedback loop where the tension
in your body creates a lot of friction.

You're having to use a lot more
energy to literally move your body.

Right?

So, like, lifting your arm, you're
actually pulling against yourself.

You're actually, you're literally
holding yourself back by having these

tight muscles that create a joint that
doesn't move in a free way, so you

have to use more, you have to, you
have to actually burn more calories

in essence to move that arm because
you're pulling against resistance,

which is your own internal resistance.

Rupert Isaacson: And presumably put
more stress on the joints as well.

the tendons and sinews to, yeah,

Sukie Baxter: potentially, absolutely.

And, and what I noticed in working with
people is that we just tend to move

in these very limited patterns, right?

So we only move in ways that we
habitually move in, which is because

of the kind of environment we
live in, usually fairly limited.

So we get these very narrow pathways
and anything outside that pathway

becomes almost inaccessible,
sometimes completely inaccessible.

And then that limits the amount of sensory
information that's sent to our brain and

the sensory information that is sent to
our brain is one of tension and stress,

which then creates more tension and
stress, which then sends more information

about tension and stress, right?

So it's, you're, you're getting
this kind of loop, not safe

you know, not safe information.

Your brain's like, I'm not safe.

Let's be tense.

We got to be prepared for,
to deal with this threat.

Okay.

But now we're getting more not safe
information and it's just this cycle.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So if I come to you with
my tense shoulders but I'm.

In a state of tension internally because
I'm afraid of my neighbors because

I'm reading a lot of negative social
media stuff because I'm, I've been

brought up in a, in a conflicty sort
of a culture, household, blah, blah.

And this has all been going on for so many
years and I don't even know any different

because I've just been raised that way.

And I come to you and I say, Hey Suki
can you work on my shoulder please?

And.

You start massaging me
and that stays tense.

And then you put your elbow
on me and it stays tense.

And then you and then I get up at the
end of the thing and I'm still tense.

Is is that the sort of experience of
a client like that where you're going?

Okay, look, something
internally now needs to change.

We need to understand what
this stress response is.

How do we, how do we guide
this person internally?

To release that stress in
a way that's not external.

No amount of, as you said, no amount
of me backing my truck repeatedly over

that guy's shoulder is going to release
that shoulder, even though that's

exactly what I'd be asking you to do.

And then you have to charge me
for wear and tear on the truck.

I can see how you would come
to need to do this research.

When you then began to tell people
in your practice about this, did

you find that it made sense to them?

Did you find that sometimes even perhaps
hearing about this and understanding this

mechanism within their own bodies, did
you find that it helped them to release

their stress without you necessarily
having to manipulate physically?

What was going on?

Or at least, did you find that if
you did manipulate physically once

you gave them this information, they
could release more meaningfully?

To an extent.

Sukie Baxter: I ultimately have moved away
from doing hands on work because there

is just so much that needs to happen.

Like, you just described so well
internally for a person in terms of

them understanding their own physical
body responses, life circumstances.

And this is, it can be
very complex, right?

It's not, it's not a simple thing.

There's a lot of circles of influence here
that that combined to affect a person's,

State internal state and not all of them
are the fault of that person, right?

We live within these systems as well.

So there's there's personal stuff.

There's cultural stuff.

Anyway so I I moved away from doing the
the hands on work because I found that

the context of a bodywork session is
So it's so entrenched in people's heads

that i'm going to go in and basically
deposit my body In the office of this

person, my brain can go on vacation
for a little while, thinking about

whatever and this person will fix me
and it, it works to, to an extent.

the people who are available for
it, for whatever reason, this is,

this is not a judgment, right?

It's because I, I do hear people say like,
Oh, well, they just weren't ready for it.

You know, and it's in sort of a
judgmental way of like, Oh, this

person is more evolved and more ready.

That's not it at all.

For whatever reason, a person
is in the, in the state to be

able to receive it and actually
integrate that work and take it on.

That's great.

Other people aren't for whatever reason
due to no fault of their own most likely.

And And when people would come in,
there was so much backing up I had

to do to explain that your body and
your brain are this integrated system.

And that it's not just a muscle.

It's this, this muscle that's
tight in your shoulder is not just

a rubber band that is too short.

That needs to be pulled longer.

Like, there's a whole culture in that
muscle, as you just described, right?

There's a whole belief
system in your body.

And there's a whole lifetime and
actually multiple lifetimes because we,

we take on a lot of these things from
other generations, both from a genetic

standpoint, but also from a just a
mirroring and a learning standpoint.

So there's, there's whole belief systems
living in your body and my elbow in

your shoulder may help if you're at
that state where you're able to release

this tension and integrate that.

But if you are not.

Then we could be here all day.

It's, you know, you're, and
you, most people do feel

better at the end of a session.

It's whether or not that work stays.

Yeah.

So my, my goal wasn't to have people come
in every week for the rest of their lives.

My goal was to actually help people
get to where they want it to go.

And I saw that for some people, the
body work was the missing piece, but

by and large, there was so much more
education that needed to happen.

And so I really transitioned into teaching
this information and, and, and helpful

tools to people so that they could start
to integrate this in a different way.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so now there you
are, your livelihood is putting hands

on people, so you actually rely on these
people to come trooping into your studio

so that you can pay rent and so on.

And then you start thinking, oh
gosh, you know, I've got to really

tackle this in a different way.

You go off and learn
about the nervous system.

And then there you are on YouTube
with like 6 million, 5 million,

4 million people looking at us.

Was it that sudden?

Dot, dot, dot?

Sukie Baxter: Yeah, it was one
of those overnight successes

that took 20 years to get there.

Oh good, I'm glad we can stop

Rupert Isaacson: the podcast right here.

Sukie Baxter: Yeah, it actually, that
was a long journey because I, I was

trying to teach this stuff forever.

I've been trying to teach
this stuff since like 2000.

I mean, honestly, since the day I started
my practice and I started figuring this

out, I was trying to find the words.

I was so very new and also so very young.

I really didn't know how to,
you know, how to convey this.

It took a while to figure out
what I Was even trying to say.

So there was that journey of just
getting proficient at what I was doing

and having enough experience with
putting my hands on people to be like,

I think there's some patterns here.

But then there was the experience
of trying to explain what it was.

I even did with people.

So there was that segment
of my journey, which as.

As you've probably noticed in this
podcast, it's not easy to quantify

what, because a lot of this stuff
is just not, it doesn't fit in the

boxes we already have for body work
and psychology and all of that.

I was like, no, they're the same thing.

You know, actually a body worker
is a mental health practitioner.

People were like, no, I have no
idea what you're talking about.

So there was that journey of kind of
figuring out how to even talk about this.

And then there was the journey
of, Trying to share this, as you

said, this was my livelihood.

And so, you know, I would work with
mentors and business mentors and people

who were kind of helping me to get, you
know, get the word out and talk to people.

And how do I, how do I communicate this?

And I had a lot of setbacks.

I, I had a mentor who really
said something very hurtful.

Where I was trying to talk about,
you know, the connection between

pain and stress and the mind and
the psychology and the culture

and all of these different things.

And I was pretty far into my nervous
system journey at this point.

And I was pretty sure that I was
on to something, but I also didn't

know of anyone else who was really
talking about it at that time.

So it was, it was, I felt like I was
bumping into a wall a lot when I talk

about it and this mentor said, well, I
don't even know why a physical therapist

is talking to me about my emotions.

Why don't you just stick to
telling people what height to

set their computer monitor at?

And I was so just distraught.

And I just felt so much despair
at that because for one that.

It's just so it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

If setting our computer
monitors at the right height

was the solution, we'd be fine.

We wouldn't need this work,
you know, because I think

that information is out there.

I think we can find that at this point.

It's accessible.

And what I wanted to do was so much
more in my, you know, in my opinion,

much more profound than that, which
was really get to the core of people

and really help them to live more
self actualized lives not just.

To eradicate the pain that they were
feeling so they could go on living

lives that they didn't really enjoy
living in unhealthy ways, which is

kind of what a lot of pain relief type.

Practices do is like allows

Rupert Isaacson: you to keep going
with what's still hurting you.

Sukie Baxter: Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah It's it's basically it puts you on
this spectrum of of pain to like numbness

where it's like we don't we don't then
replace the pain with joy or fulfillment

or Desire or anything pleasant.

Rupert Isaacson: We're just or
even a way of of moving away

from that pain towards something.

Yeah.

Yeah Healing.

Yeah.

Sukie Baxter: Yeah, so
so I was very distraught.

I struggled for a long time I tried
very hard to talk about posture

in a very Posture y sort of way.

And it Really didn't work.

I, I wrote a book, a
little ebook that I have.

And I found myself like, I'm going
to write this book about posture.

And as I'm writing this book, I kept
coming back to the nervous system

and I was like, I can't do it.

It's like, it's physically impossible.

I can't talk about how to sit in a chair
without talking about your nervous system.

And so I, I had started putting things
out on YouTube and I was kind of like

dabbling in it here and there and when did

Rupert Isaacson: you start
messing around with YouTube?

Sukie Baxter: So I actually put a couple
videos out, like, way, way back in 2009

and then I abandoned it for a very long
time, like, a decade, and then I was like,

maybe I'll go back to that YouTube thing
maybe around 2018, I want to say, ish,

and kind of was dabbling in it and then.

I just sort of started to decide that
I wanted to experiment a little bit.

So I was like, I'm going to put out videos
that are more on the nervous system side.

I just, I need to get this out.

I'm having these conversations one on
one, like these conversations would

come up with my body work clients.

They would come up.

While I was working on horses and I
was talking to the owner about nervous

systems and why I didn't need to pound
on their horse to get actual change, why

their horses movement would change with
what looked like me, just kind of gently

touching their, you know, their animal.

And they're like, well, how is this,
you know, how is this happening in

their horse's eyes or, you know,
doing that third eyelid blank and big

yawns and, you know, signs of release.

So these conversations were coming up over
and over and I was like, I just want to,

I want to try having this conversation,
not on a quiet secret one to one level.

But like, let's just try
putting it out there more

widely and it was an experiment.

And I found that there actually was
quite a lot of interest in that material.

So, to my surprise, it was exactly what
everyone told me not to talk about.

Don't talk about the connection
between the body and trauma and.

anxiety and mental health and
your physical self and all of

these things that are connected.

Don't do that.

No one's going to understand it.

And it was when I did that exact thing
that everyone told me not to do, that

it actually connected with people.

Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting
how many people on this podcast

say something similar to that.

It was when I did what everyone said
not to do that things began to move.

I, I know that's been true in my life.

When I was going to go across
Mongolia with my kid and everyone

said he was completely nuts.

And it's just in my gut, it's like,
no, no, it's, it's the right thing,

but I totally understand why you think
it's nuts, because on the face of it,

it is a bit nuts, but life is nuts.

So, you know, I, that, that bold step it
seems that perhaps your own sympathetic

nervous system had gotten to a point
where you were feeling maybe that you

had Your foot on the brake and the
accelerator at the same time just like

these clients who were in distress with
you were and Do you think it's true

that you felt in some way even if that
was instinctive and unconscious that?

Until you sorted that out in yourself.

You couldn't really help them in
the way that you would like to And

then that happened on a public forum
Do you think that that was also

part of what was motivating you?

A sort of feeling of, well,
physician heal thyself sort of thing.

If I can't, how can I tell
these people how to set

themselves free from the inside?

If I myself, I'm sort of
feeling frustrated like this.

Sukie Baxter: Yeah.

If I'm not letting myself be
who I am, then how can I tell

other people how to do that?

So, yeah, you know, there's a
really great saying, and I don't

know who originally said it.

I'm sure it wasn't the
person I heard it from.

But it's don't talk about it, be about it.

And I, I really, I find it That was God,

Rupert Isaacson: wasn't that God?

Didn't God say that?

I have no idea,

Sukie Baxter: possibly.

But I think that I had to be,
you know, be that example.

I had to go out and do the thing and
it was, it was really terrifying.

I, you know, I get a calm, I
get lots of comments on YouTube

because YouTube is YouTube.

Many, many, many, many
wonderful positive comments.

And I love those.

But of course, as many people
do, I see the negative ones and

they hit me more intensely than.

The positive ones.

Rupert Isaacson: The old
sympathetic nervous system reaction.

Sukie Baxter: Looking for those threats.

And one of the comments that I get that
does make me laugh is people say, well,

she really likes to hear herself talk.

And I just, I always chuckle to
myself because the reality is I hate

watching those videos of myself.

I don't actually love being
the center of attention.

I don't love a big crowd around me.

I'm kind of a, like not a hermit,
but I'm, I'm an introvert.

I, you know, I, I'm not
somebody to go in and.

You know, take over a party or something.

And so it was hard to get out there
and start talking about this stuff,

especially at a time where it really
wasn't like, so this is about 4 years ago.

Now that I really started
talking about this.

I've been talking about it for like, 10
years or more, but that I really kind of

was like, okay, I'm going to do the thing.

It was about four years ago and
things have dramatically changed.

There's so much more content out there.

That's really similar in tone and, you
know, and in material, like where we're

talking about how the body and the
mind are interconnected and related.

But at that time, no one
was really talking about it.

And I didn't know if everyone
was going to tell me I was crazy.

I mean, I could have made those YouTube
videos and we could be sitting here and

like three people could have watched them.

I have no idea.

Rupert Isaacson: Were you surprised
by how many people flocked to them?

And why do you think they did?

Sukie Baxter: Well, I think
it's a combination of things.

I think one, the timing was right because
it was in the middle of the pandemic.

So we were all very stressed and
people were looking for help and

we didn't have a lot of resources
because we couldn't go to our, you

know, I mean, you could get therapy.

From zoom, but you couldn't
go to your therapist.

You couldn't go to your
massage therapist by and large.

There was a lot of, you know,
things were shut down or very

limited staffing was very low.

Everyone was, you know, freaking out.

It was a huge pattern interrupt.

You know, our whole lives
got turned upside down.

And I was no exception to that, but so,
so people were looking for resources.

So that was 1 thing, but you, you
mentioned, I think, at the beginning

that your content can be good.

And then people don't see it, right?

So you can have really great
videos and there are people who

have really great videos out
there, but no one's watched them.

And the reasoning is that there are
ways to figure out what people are

looking for and position your video
so that it's the thing that they

find when they're looking for it.

And I was able to, to do that.

And I, Thanks.

You know, I, I did it strategically
and I was fortunate in that.

I happened to land on some
things that people were actually

looking for at that time.

So it, it kind of

Rupert Isaacson: blew up.

So you say you did it strategically.

Did you do it strategically
from the get go?

Like, did you sit there
I looked at a wiki of Mr.

Beast the other day and
if you don't know who Mr.

Beast is these days, I mean,
you're probably, like, one of three

on the planet, but nonetheless,
if you don't know who Mr.

Beast is, he's this incredibly successful
YouTuber who has made billions and

given a lot of it away, actually.

Planted lots of trees and things.

And I remember him reading this thing
where he said, I sat for five years in a

room eating Uber Eats, only figuring out,
learning how to make videos go viral.

I became obsessed with it in an
unhealthy way, but it sort of paid off.

That's what he said.

Did you do something like that?

Or did you just start putting stuff
out there that you were interested

in and thought other people should
mention or was it something in between?

Sukie Baxter: It was a
little bit in between.

I had a strategy of I'm going
to, I'm going to put different

things out and see what hits.

So I would make videos on different
topics because I didn't know what

people were gravitating towards.

So, I would do some research
and there, there are ways.

So there are tools.

If I think people don't know that
these things exist, there are tools.

That will tell you what people
are searching for on Google and

YouTube is a Google product.

So there are tools to, to become
aware of, like, how many people are

looking for a term on, you know, on
social media or on Google and that

tells you what the interest level is.

And then there are.

People who figured out
ways to name your video.

Well, so basically there's, there's lots
of elements, but like the title is one of

them and there's other elements as well to
position your video in a way that YouTube

knows Hey, when someone's searching for
this thing, this video is kind of like,

I can, I can do the matchmaker here.

Like I can, I can give them.

This video content, because
that's what they're looking for.

Now, if your video is terrible or like
you spend, you know, five minutes of

rambling on maybe the last part of
your video is great, but five minutes

at the beginning, are you rambling
on about something irrelevant?

People aren't going to watch it.

And YouTube's going to be
like, ah, that didn't work.

Let's try it.

Let's serve them up a different video.

Right?

So there there's lots of elements here.

But there are ways to be strategic
about when you make your video, making

sure that you're actually creating a
resource that people are looking for.

So I, I was looking to balance
that when I would do my research.

I was like, okay, I have
something I want to share.

How does it match with what
people are looking for?

What's the Venn diagram here?

And you

Rupert Isaacson: did that from the get go.

You, you, you thought, I actually want
this to go out as wide as possible.

I'm going to research how to make
a video go out as wide as possible

on YouTube before I make it.

Sukie Baxter: Not exactly.

I didn't really want it to
go out as wide as possible.

I wanted people to see it.

I wanted to know, you know, I thought,
I thought a few hundred people, maybe

a few thousand people would watch it.

I didn't think, you know,
5 million people would

Rupert Isaacson: watch a video.

Why do you think 5
million people did watch

Sukie Baxter: it?

Because it was the thing they were
looking for and because they watched

because of the way so I I actually
worked with mentors like so when

I want to learn something, I find
a mentor and I learn it from them.

And this is true in every area of my life.

I go find somebody and learn.

I'm like way past the point.

Well, I still read books, but I'm way past
the point of self study at this point.

I want to learn something.

I'm like, you seem to
know what you're doing.

Teach me.

So I found people who are
really good at YouTube.

And they taught me us.

How did you find them?

They use, how did you find them?

They, they were a referral from somebody
else that I knew, from somebody else.

Like I So you

Rupert Isaacson: did, you know some people
who, who had been successful on YouTube

and say, who do you, who would I talk

Sukie Baxter: to?

They, they were, they are successful.

The people that I followed,
I liked their ethos.

I, I like them as people, there's lots of

Rupert Isaacson: people that you were, you
were subscribing to their YouTube channel.

Sukie Baxter: Actually I wasn't.

They were, I was referred to them, so
I had not subscribed to their channel.

I was referred to them by a, it was
somebody in another community of creators

and business people that they were
like, this is, it was somebody else.

In that community had done YouTube had
taught YouTube previously and doesn't

anymore and they were like, this is the
person I send people to now and I went

Rupert Isaacson: online or this was
someone you knew in your up there in the

Pacific Northwest where you live where

Sukie Baxter: people go online.

Okay, it's all online.

Yeah, it's an online community.

Okay,

Rupert Isaacson: so you joined
an online community of people

interested in creating videos around.

the subjects that you were interested in
or was it some different online community?

Sukie Baxter: It was a
different online community.

It was a more of like a business
online community where people

who have who have businesses get
together and share resources and

information and help each other out
with, you know, I need to do this.

I need to do X, Y, Z thing.

What tools do I use or who
knows somebody I can hire to

do this, that kind of a thing.

Is that still exist?

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.

What's it?

What's it called?

Sukie Baxter: It's somebody's private
community, so I wouldn't necessarily share

it, but I've been a member of many, many,
many, I've always, but you must've found

Rupert Isaacson: your
way there somehow, right?

So how did you, if someone's listening
and going, well, gosh, I would like

to become, you know, part of a mentor
community like that, a mentoring community

like that, what would be the steps that
they would need to take in order to

find their way to something like that?

Sukie Baxter: That's a,
that's a really good question.

And the reason I'm so hesitant
to say more is because the online

community, the online business
coaching and mentoring community is

it's a bit of a minefield to navigate.

There's a lot of really manipulative
practices that happen in that space.

There's a lot of people
calling that out right now too.

So there's some really good conversations.

But like you, you can, on the internet,
you can find a business coach and like.

So, so they're, they're out there.

It's just that,

Rupert Isaacson: so what's the, well,
let's, let's stick around on this topic.

Cause it's, I think
it's useful for people.

There'll be people driving their
cars right now that want to do this.

And, but don't know how if you were
to, what, what, what would be the.

Way to know if it's a good business
coach, what would be your test questions?

For example, i'll give you people often
ask me about two things that they'll say

to me because you know, I teach dressage
with Horses and so people will say how do

I know if it's a good dressage teacher and
i'll say well There's two test questions.

How do you teach your horse?

The language is important piaf, which is
a particular movement that's important in

that thing, and they must be able to tell
you in a more or less understandable way.

And can I ride him?

Meaning, can I sit on him?

Have you got a horse that can show me?

And if the answer is something vague and
no, you need to keep going until you find

someone who says, Oh, I did it like this.

And yes, you can.

He's over here.

Similarly, people know my background
with, you know, shamans and healing.

And they say, well, how do
you, how do you find your way?

Not, you know, how do you not get
Involved with the charlatan and I'll say,

well, usually the really good shamans
are in very remote areas of the world.

And they're so busy
healing their communities.

You, you wouldn't necessarily,
you wouldn't find them online.

But what I often do if I'm going to
a place where there's places, parts

of the world where I just know the
people because I was partly brought

up there and partly because of my
work with journalism and human rights.

And then I might.

Actually give someone a contact but
let's say I need to go to a part of

the world where I don't know anybody
I take a counterintuitive process.

I will often contact a Listen up guys if
you're looking for a shaman I will often

contact a hospital or a clinic in a remote
tribal area Like let's say I wanted to

go up to alaska and find a healer I would
look for a hospital in a native american

reservation up there and I would contact
The administrator and I would say by email

and I'd send an email saying have you
got a funny old guy or a funny old lady

who comes on the wards from the local
community and does odd things and the

people just seem to sort of get better.

And frequently I'll get a
response from the hospital

administrator saying actually yes.

I mean sometimes they won't
come back to me at all.

Sometimes they'll tell me to bugger off
but sometimes they'll say actually yes.

And then I'll say, oh, and then
we'll begin a conversation and I'll

find my way to something that way,
but there's a sort of step by step

onion peeling back thing happening.

So if someone is wanting to find
their way through that minefield that

you're talking about what do you think
would be some sound steps for them to

follow and questions for them to ask?

Sukie Baxter: Yeah, I don't think it's
a straight at least I haven't figured

out is a straight ahead way for them
to figure it out as clear as that.

I think that it can be really
helpful to speak to their students.

I personally, if I'm looking at
someone, I will kind of stalk

their social media for a while.

I like to look at the testimonials on
their pages and then Google those people

and go and, and kind of investigate
like what those people are up to.

Mm-Hmm.

, in particular to find out like,
you know, are, are all of their

clients kind of the same , you know,
are they all doing the same thing?

Yeah.

And then one of the biggest things
is if you come across a business

coach who has a lot of clients
who are also business coaches.

And everyone's kind of teaching
people how to make money.

That's a big red flag.

Because there's sort of this weird,
it's not MLM, but it's MLM like.

It's a bit MLM y.

Yeah.

Where it's like somebody who wasn't,
wasn't very successful often.

Not always.

Sounds

Rupert Isaacson: like a midlife rapper.

Sorry.

Sukie Baxter: Somebody who wasn't maybe
that great at building their own, you

know, business then decides to teach other
people how to build their businesses.

But the only thing they really know
how to do is how to teach people how to

teach people how to build businesses.

So then their clients start to
teach people how to make money too.

And it just becomes like, everyone's
almost saying the same thing.

So if you, if you start looking
around somebody's, you know,

business and at their clients, and
it seems like a big echo chamber and

everyone's kind of saying the same.

thing in that regard, then
that's, it's not necessarily a

solid no, but it's a red flag.

And then for me, I am at this point
in my work, really intentional about

choosing people who acknowledge
the systems in which we live.

So I will not work with people who
have this sort of ethos of like,

if you just change your thoughts,
the whole, you know, like all of

your problems are in your thoughts.

Because that's just simply not true.

We, you know, there are
limitations and, and situations

that people find themselves in.

There's, there's all kinds of
things that happen to people.

There's all kinds of different
circumstances that people find themselves

in that mean that their resources and
ability to do something are important.

You know, different than somebody else's.

So if someone just has this
sort of like, well, if you have

problems, it's all in your thoughts
and you just need to journal.

It's not for me at this point.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So, you through these researchers,
you found your way to some mentors.

What if you were mentoring the
listeners now, what is the way that

you create a title for your YouTube
video that will position it, as

you said, in a way that people have
a sporting chance of finding it.

Sukie Baxter: So there is something
called search engine optimization.

It's been around for a long time.

It's not new.

It's been around since
Google has been around.

Basically it is figuring out what
people are searching for on Google.

It's people don't lie to Google, right?

So they type their actual
questions into the search bar.

And the funny thing is that a lot of
people have the exact same question

and they type it in the same way.

Okay, and so there are tools that that you
can use, as I mentioned to know how many

people are searching for these things.

So the 1st thing that I
do is I try to figure out.

I might have an idea, a
general concept for a video.

Okay, so I'm going to take that
general concept and I'm going to go

look at Google to see what are the
questions that people are actually

asking about this, and then I will
use that information to craft a title.

There's no guarantee.

Right.

We none of us actually knows what
the algorithm is that YouTube uses.

So you might have what seems like a
bang up title and it doesn't get picked

up or sometimes it doesn't get picked
up for three months or six months.

And then all of a sudden it just.

That's where it starts.

And then, then from there, once you've
got your title, you want to take

into account the related questions
that people are asking about that

and make sure you incorporate that
into the actual body of the video.

So the things you're saying, So, some of
my videos, I literally write them out.

a script word for word and say them
because I can't necessarily think

when a camera is pointed at me so it's
helpful for me to just have it there.

Sometimes I will do bullet points
and I will, I will present that way.

But in all, whether I do bullet points
or script it word for word, I'm making

sure that the way that I've structured
the outline of this video is to answer

the kinds of questions that people have.

And that doesn't mean That I won't say
something like, well, people ask this

question and actually I want to say, I
want to tell you why that question is

not helpful, or I want to tell you why we
need to be asking a different question,

because if you understand this, then
it changes the way you understand the

whole challenge or something like that.

But I want to address the fact that
people have that question so that

they're, they're getting their,
they're getting the resource they need.

Rupert Isaacson: What is the tool?

What are, what are these search engine
optimization tools that people can access?

Sukie Baxter: The two that I use are key.

Is it keywords anywhere
or keywords everywhere?

I think it's keywords everywhere.

Let me make sure.

Keywords everywhere.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Okay.

Keywords everywhere.

It's a plugin.

I believe it only works on Chrome.

And the other one that I
use is called Tube Buddy.

They're both very affordable tools.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Why those two?

I'm, I'm sure there's
other tools out there.

What is it about those two that
works better than the others

Sukie Baxter: that you found?

Well, Keywords Everywhere tells
you, it gives you psychic abilities.

It tells you how many people
are searching for something.

You can use it on YouTube.

You can use it on Google.

It does cost it does cost a little bit
of money to, you know, every time you

do a search, it'll give you these little
numbers next to your search term that tell

you how many people are searching for it.

And every time you do that, it
costs you a little bit of money, but

it's, it's so, I mean, I think it
was like, I don't know, 20 bucks.

And I've been using it for
like a year or something.

It's not, I don't remember exactly,
but it's really affordable.

But I, I turn it off when I'm not using it
just so I'm not running down my credits.

And then TubeBuddy, I don't use as much.

I use keywords everywhere more.

TubeBuddy has a bunch of tools that
you can use that will allow you to

see comparisons with other channels.

So if you have somebody who's
like got a similar channel, you

can see like how their videos
are performing compared to yours.

It gives you some.

Weighted search predictions.

So like when you're popping a
title into youtube, like maybe i'm

going to consider this title It'll
kind of tell you for your channel.

We think this is a really good one
It gives you data like how many