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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00;00;00;03 - 00;00;23;17
Unknown
Welcome to Best Beginnings, a podcast from Baby Zone, where we talk to the people who are working hardest to give every child the best possible start in life. Today I'm joined by Sophie Livingstone, CEO of Little Village, London's largest network of baby banks and the chair of the baby Bank Alliance, which brings together over 400 baby banks across the UK.
00;00;23;20 - 00;00;55;07
Unknown
The idea behind Little Village is beautifully simple, passing on great quality clothes, toys and equipment from families who no longer need them, to families who do. At Baby Zone, we see the difference that that makes every single day. Little village is in every single one of our For London hubs, and the partnership between us is one of the things I'm most proud of, because it means a family who walks into a baby zone gets not just a community and play and support, but also the practical things they need for their baby to thrive.
00;00;55;09 - 00;01;14;29
Unknown
It's an organization that's built on generosity, run by people who have carefully thought about dignity, and led by someone who spent two decades making the case at the earliest years matter most. Sophie. Really glad to have you here today. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for having me. It's brilliant. And so, so take me to a little village baby bank.
00;01;15;00 - 00;01;41;26
Unknown
What does it look like for a family that comes to visit for the first time? What is that experience like for them? So we actually support families in a variety of ways. But if a family is coming to see us at one of our hubs in person, they will have been referred by professionals. So that could be a midwife, a health visitor, social worker or somebody in another charity, for example, who will have filled in a form online, and then that family will have got a link to book an appointment.
00;01;41;26 - 00;01;45;26
Unknown
So they'll come in expecting to come and visit our, our hub.
00;01;45;26 - 00;02;01;04
Unknown
And it's set up a bit like a shop. So we've made them into quite beautiful boutique style experiences where families can come in and their appointment lasts for about an hour. They're welcomed by our volunteers, and we go through a list with them of what they need for their child.
00;02;01;04 - 00;02;22;06
Unknown
So that is everything really, that they might need. And families, depending on their circumstances, might be coming when before their baby is born, before their first baby is born. And they rely on our volunteers to help them think about what they need. So certainly when I had my first children, I didn't know how many muslins you need, for example, that sort of thing.
00;02;22;06 - 00;02;47;20
Unknown
So taking a family or a new parent through that process is an important part of the appointment. But they could be there with multiple children that we're trying to find items for. You have their little ones running around the shop, pulling out toys, looking at things, exploring for themselves. And we've got play areas set up as well. So we try and make it as welcoming and as relaxing a space for that family.
00;02;47;21 - 00;03;11;07
Unknown
And that's quite a conscious decision that you've made to make it feel like a shop, to make it really welcoming. I guess. How did that start? What formulated sort of that decision? So that came about through Covid. Actually, prior to Covid, we ran our operations in a sort of church hall style model where families would come in almost en masse for a session in the morning and rifle three boxes with volunteers.
00;03;11;08 - 00;03;16;26
Unknown
And that wasn't really satisfactory for anybody. It was fairly chaotic. It wasn't great for the children,
00;03;16;26 - 00;03;32;01
Unknown
and with Covid, we had to shut down and offer deliveries to families. Doors, which we had always wanted to try. And Covid forced us to do that. And coming out of Covid, we asked families what would they like? And they said they wanted both.
00;03;32;02 - 00;04;09;07
Unknown
They wanted deliveries, but they also wanted choice. And that choice and dignity is a really important part of Little Villages model. So we were quite deliberate in testing out. We'd been given a space up in Wembley, testing out how to fit out the space like a shop and enable families to come in and choose the items they wanted, because I think, you know, that's a really big part of life, having your children that gets taken away from you when you're in poverty, which is that joy of choosing the cute outfits, the nice things that your child will want, the toys they might enjoy playing with.
00;04;09;07 - 00;04;29;08
Unknown
And we wanted to put that joy back into that experience of having having children for for families that needed our help. That's brilliant. And we'd see that with the families that come to our baby zones in London, and they go through that experience. And as you say, for people that perhaps don't have as much choice and the ability to pick and choose, it's a wonderful way of giving that back to families.
00;04;29;08 - 00;04;59;23
Unknown
And yeah, it's it's a brilliant model, I guess. Do you have any stories, Sophie, from families that you've supported, that you've worked with, that kind of stick with you, any particular sort of specific scenarios or a family that stayed with you through your time? There's lots and obviously I've got to be careful about not sharing personal details, but I think there's themes around the items being the the liberating factor for a family.
00;04;59;23 - 00;05;13;18
Unknown
So we have one mum who talks really powerfully about getting a sling, which gave her the confidence to leave the house, and that and when she was experiencing post-natal depression and just the act of getting a sling from us
00;05;13;18 - 00;05;21;22
Unknown
are volunteers and staff get trained in baby wearing safe sling operations, I suppose. So she had that.
00;05;21;22 - 00;05;30;26
Unknown
She was able to go out and join in classes and things, and that helped to her to build the confidence to then be out and about with her baby.
00;05;30;27 - 00;05;44;19
Unknown
We hear that a lot around things like weaning. So I remember another story about the health visitor said to a mum that her child wasn't weaning properly, and he was having to sit in a car seat to wean.
00;05;44;19 - 00;06;14;05
Unknown
We provided a high chair and suddenly the health visitors feedback was that's much better, he's eating better. That gave that mum confidence. It's those those items are more than just the stuff it is, you know, the ticket to the local park, the confidence to go out because your children are wearing clothes that you feel proud of them being in, rather than being ashamed that they're in ill fitting clothes or that they're dirty, that you're seen as somebody who's coping as a parent.
00;06;14;05 - 00;06;17;17
Unknown
So it's all of those things that are really symbolic for people.
00;06;17;17 - 00;06;38;19
Unknown
And, you know, they're not just essentials, or maybe they're called essentials for a reason because they are much more than just a piece of kit. Yeah, I love that. And sort of an object is an opportunity. It's not just a thing, an item that it can help families as they're going about their day to day lives in ways that they probably hadn't even considered beforehand.
00;06;38;21 - 00;07;01;13
Unknown
And yeah, I guess that's your your your job, isn't it? You take everyday items that some people take for granted, and it becomes potentially life transforming for some families. And it's an engagement tool. So I think the other thing that we're finding as we're working more with partners like Baby's Own and others, is that access to the stuff can be a way to build that confidence and trust with other organizations.
00;07;01;13 - 00;07;26;16
Unknown
Because we don't have the silver bullet, we are not going to be able to provide everything that a family needs as their children go through the early years in terms of groups and connection and what have you. But but through having those basics and through accessing those basics in spaces where there are other things available to those families, it just builds that trust and confidence to then engage in a stay and play or a sing and sign session or whatever it might be.
00;07;26;18 - 00;07;50;22
Unknown
Brilliant. And you touched on earlier your volunteers and the team that you work with. And I'm sort of fascinated by your model because you've done a phenomenal job in terms of bringing out lots of volunteers that support your work, and it's an extraordinary community of people. What is it that you think kind of brings people to come and work at Little Village to go and support you in one of your warehouses and get your bundles ready?
00;07;50;24 - 00;08;13;01
Unknown
I think there's a there's a number of factors, and there's lots of reasons why people will choose to volunteer. I think we try and make it as easy as possible. And in the last couple of years, we have responded to the fact that volunteering nationally is reducing and it's harder to get people to volunteer regularly. So our regular volunteers, we've got about 700 of them.
00;08;13;05 - 00;08;27;16
Unknown
They are amazing as they really know us. They really know what goes in a bundle and they can support families very easily. But we also have increased flexibility. That's where things are going in life generally, but including volunteering.
00;08;27;16 - 00;08;38;13
Unknown
And so we had over 1000 individual one off volunteers coming in to pack items. And I think people like that because it's easy and because they can see the impact really quickly.
00;08;38;16 - 00;08;57;26
Unknown
It's not. We're really lucky in that we really need people to come in and sort socks and to process all the items and check the toys and, and make sure the right number of puzzle pieces are in the box. You don't need much training to do that. You can make a really big difference in the space of a few hours,
00;08;57;26 - 00;09;01;28
Unknown
and so we are really grateful for that support.
00;09;01;28 - 00;09;24;16
Unknown
And we're quite geared up now, thankfully, to to get people in and to get them moving and making an impact really quickly. But I think the other piece is also the values and the culture that are hubs and our teams create for people. So it's always welcoming. The kettle's always on, and we're always talking about the love and care and attention that we want to give to families.
00;09;24;16 - 00;09;44;27
Unknown
So all of our bundles that go to to families, we have a packed by with love for the volunteer to sign so that you've got that personal connection. And I think people feel that they get that sense of connection with another family at the end of that bundle. And that's really, you know, there's not many ways in which you can do that.
00;09;44;28 - 00;10;08;09
Unknown
Yeah, I think that's, you know, way of, as you say, making building a relationship, making it feel personal. My wife might push back on your comment about not needing training to match socks, because I definitely sometimes need that myself. But I'll have something called the sock meter a little village. I think we need to trade market where where we have like the different sized socks set out on a board.
00;10;08;11 - 00;10;29;02
Unknown
And so you can use the subcommittee. I think we should all have one in our house especially. Sounds like a useful device. I guess I'll sort of was talking beforehand about my family, and I've got young children, and obviously I'm very fortunate. I'm the youngest in my family and my wife is also the youngest in her. So we've had our children been dressed in their cousins clothes for most of their lives.
00;10;29;02 - 00;10;48;24
Unknown
And, you know, we've been very lucky from that perspective. It's been one of the sort of quiet gifts that I've felt for being part of a family. But now I've got three children growing up and no plans for any more. What would you say in terms of guidance as my youngest one grows out of his clothes, I guess I want to pass them on.
00;10;48;24 - 00;11;08;07
Unknown
What would you guide me to do? Or what does Little Village need most? I guess in terms of the best way for a family like mine, to be able to help the families that you serve. Well, I would always encourage people to look on the baby Bank Alliance website and find their nearest baby banks, and that could be a little village, but that could be another baby bank around the country.
00;11;08;07 - 00;11;27;14
Unknown
I think the priority for all of us is that we pass on high quality items, so we don't pass on anything with stains or rips, which means that actually the older age clothes are in higher demand because they're worn for longer. And they are, you know, children trash their clothes when they're playing in the park, as they should
00;11;27;17 - 00;11;38;16
Unknown
But that means that we always have fewer of those. And then the big ticket items, the things we have less of as well. So Moses baskets, we always need cots and buggies from birth,
00;11;38;16 - 00;11;45;13
Unknown
those really big ticket items that get passed on most infrequently and that people are often selling
00;11;45;13 - 00;11;51;08
Unknown
as well, understandably, because the most expensive. But those are the things that really impact the family's budgets.
00;11;51;14 - 00;12;02;05
Unknown
And what do you think is in it? For the people that are giving to a little bit of donating that are dropping off a bag of baby clothes? What do you think that sort of means for them?
00;12;02;05 - 00;12;09;15
Unknown
I think it means a variety of things. For some people it is. I'm clearing out the loft and I'm very grateful you're taking my stuff out of my house.
00;12;09;15 - 00;12;41;02
Unknown
But I think a lot of people, it's really emotional. And I found it that like that as well, like those really precious baby items that you're really nostalgic about. But, you know, you need to pass on knowing that you can give those to somewhere, that it's going to be really well used by another family who doesn't have anything else to make use of, is really powerful and emotional, and you often get people bringing their stuff in and explaining what's in the bags, because they're really finding it hard to let go of them.
00;12;41;02 - 00;13;03;10
Unknown
And, you know, that's all part of our little village experience, that while volunteers will take the time with our our kit donors to receive the items and thank them for them, it means a lot. You know, the early years of having a baby. It's a really powerful, personal thing. And we recognize that on both sides and that we also want to create that community of gifting both ways.
00;13;03;10 - 00;13;24;14
Unknown
And actually what we also say to the families we give items to is you can bring them back when your children have grown out of them. And that again brings dignity to the process, because families are so often saying, I will bring them back, or can I give them to some to my friend who lives near me? And we're creating that reuse chain, which is another part of our work.
00;13;24;15 - 00;13;59;03
Unknown
And, you know, ultimately we would normalize reuse to the point that we're out of business. And is that the end target? Is that where you aspire to get to eventually? I mean, that you should always have that aim of putting yourself out of business as a charity. And obviously I want to end child poverty, but I think ending that need for essentials to be passed on through an intermediary would be amazing, so that you've normalized that and destigmatize it because, as you say, you've got loads of hand-me-downs.
00;13;59;03 - 00;14;15;27
Unknown
But I think it's it's easier to accept hand-me-downs if you have the choice and, you know, you can go and buy new things, or you can supplement the hand-me-downs with new things. If you have no other choice and you constantly feel like you're being judged, it's much harder to accept them
00;14;16;00 - 00;14;26;16
Unknown
or to feel that that's okay. Which is why we put such a premium on the quality and the packaging, and how beautiful it feels to make people feel like this isn't second best.
00;14;26;18 - 00;14;56;07
Unknown
And you touched on this throughout our conversations so far, and interesting threads to pick up on is, you know, you speak about poverty in a particular way in terms of, you know, there is a dignity that you're trying to give the families that you work with and you serve and form a relationship with. Do you think that's something we've missed in other aspects of how political sector talks about vulnerable families, young families or other charities?
00;14;56;09 - 00;15;24;11
Unknown
I mean, you've been in the sector for for a while. Is there something you think that we could all do better to talk about, to think about the families that we all work with? Oh, absolutely. And I'm really thinking about it now with my extra hat of the entering the entire poverty coalition. How do we change the conversation around child poverty and the stigma that that is associated with that?
00;15;24;11 - 00;15;41;26
Unknown
So whenever we get media coverage, a little village or the big brown clients, we get comments about you shouldn't have children if you can't afford them. And it drives me crazy, because who can guarantee for 18 years that you're not going to get ill? Someone's not going to die. You're not going to lose your job. Something's not going to go wrong in life.
00;15;41;26 - 00;16;08;26
Unknown
And actually, we've got a falling birthrate. We need to children in this country, we need our own population. And it behaves all of us to care about children. It's also not the children's fault, whatever circumstances they've been born into. But there is a collect should be a feeling of collective responsibility for those children's future, because it is actually all of our futures that that rests on.
00;16;08;27 - 00;16;32;13
Unknown
There's loads of evidence around the impact of growing up in poverty in your early years, impacting on your future and on society's future. There's a cost to the economy of 39 billion a year of child poverty itself, but we've atomized so much in society that it's very much seen as an individual responsibility issue rather than a collective one.
00;16;32;13 - 00;16;55;16
Unknown
And ideally, what we'd be doing is trying to put our arms around all of those families and children to look after each other so that those children's futures are better protected. And I mean, I think for me, what's very clear, when you see the little village bundles and you walk into a hub, one of our baby zone hubs, these are not luxury items.
00;16;55;18 - 00;17;23;24
Unknown
These are everyday sort of staples, things that most people would sort of take for granted almost. And there's also some of the studies that we spoke about, the Bernardo's one with, you know, people having things that like the Moses baskets that you spoke about and prams and pushchairs. And I guess when you sort of read that, look at the research and look at why Little Village exists, what is the answer to the question in terms of like, how do we solve this challenge?
00;17;23;25 - 00;17;39;16
Unknown
what do you want people that are listening, perhaps to go like this is what we need to do differently, perhaps as a result? Well, I mean, at a big systemic level, more money needs to go into the system to support families because they have not got enough money to live off to make ends meet.
00;17;39;16 - 00;17;52;03
Unknown
And that's a whole, you know, we have a cost of living crisis. And unfortunately, I think there's another big wave of that coming down the tracks. And people, even if they're working, both working, they can't make ends meet having children.
00;17;52;03 - 00;18;12;09
Unknown
And there's something very wrong with our system that that's the case. So there's a whole load of levers that need to be pulled around that obviously the two child benefit limit has now been lifted, which is going to lift 450,000 children out of poverty, which is an amazing start.
00;18;12;09 - 00;18;34;28
Unknown
But what else needs to then come after that? I think for London there's a really big housing issue and housing is one of the consistent themes we see right across the families that that we're supporting is the condition of housing families all in one room, not enough room for a cop, even if they had one, for example, really poor condition like mold.
00;18;34;29 - 00;18;56;13
Unknown
And so there's there's some really entrenched issues around the quality of our housing stock that are going to take a long time to change, as well as just not having enough money in people's pockets and every month. And with that, and I just talked about potential spike in another cost of living crisis and everything. What does the future hold for Little Village in terms of growth?
00;18;56;13 - 00;19;19;11
Unknown
You're already serving tens of thousands of families each year. What is on your sort of horizon in the short to medium term, around growth, around the ways that you interact with parents? So we are at the moment thinking about what's our next strategy, but we definitely want to get more essentials out to more families. There's 800,000 children living in poverty in London.
00;19;19;11 - 00;19;42;06
Unknown
It's the biggest number in any region in the country. So there's so much to do still and we can't keep up with demand. So scaling up to meet that need is really important. But doing it ideally ahead of a crisis is really important, which is why we're trying to work with partners like Baby's Own while we've got packs in every London maternity unit, for example.
00;19;42;06 - 00;20;13;21
Unknown
But how do we do more of that? How are we integrated with family hubs and how we supporting in line with the focus on a good level of development and reception, those stages and ages that children go through. So can we provide potties and weaning packs and things like that to help children get through those stages? In a way that means that they're on track at reception, which is such a powerful indicator of whether they are employable at 16, which is really, really important.
00;20;13;21 - 00;20;43;06
Unknown
So I do think that partners are probably the way to go to be able to do that. Scaling. Having our beautiful shops is wonderful, but it's probably not affordable for us to scale up, and we probably can't do that quickly enough. So going out through organizations in the community who already got those relationships with families or want to build them, using our essentials to hook people in and build that relationship, and not seeing ourselves as the center of everything.
00;20;43;11 - 00;21;12;02
Unknown
You know, I think there's a risk in the charity sector where you believe your own hype and think you're the silver bullet. Actually, nobody has the silver bullet. We have to work together and join up. And so that's that's our priority and that's brilliant. And it resonates. Build that one stop shop for a family and you meet them where they are and usually go, okay, well if they want to get a bundle, if they need clothes, then fantastic little village or baby bank Alliance we have across our network.
00;21;12;02 - 00;21;31;29
Unknown
But there's other things that families want and other questions they might have. And having trusted professionals, trusted people that are in the sector that they're able to talk to, it's just as valuable as well. So completely agree. I guess. On a more personal note, Sophie, you have children and you have obviously worked in this sector for for a while.
00;21;31;29 - 00;21;58;08
Unknown
And how much has having your own family informed you about the way that you've run Little Village and the work that you do across baby Bank Alliance and the sort of child of poverty? I mean, I think it can't help but inform you because you're thinking about. What I suppose we all want the best for our own children, and it's very easy to think, well, what if this is my child?
00;21;58;13 - 00;22;22;04
Unknown
Actually, that didn't have that Moses basket? I mean, that's what really gets you as a sucker punch. Really. So that's a motivator. Also, my children have been to volunteer at Little Village. They they know that their outgrown clothes come to Little Village. We have a little village bag and we always talk about this is, you know, let's get put that in the little village bag and you've outgrown it.
00;22;22;04 - 00;22;30;19
Unknown
So they understand children get this concept really easily and they can make a difference. Volunteering, which I'm also passionate about
00;22;30;19 - 00;22;38;28
Unknown
and modeling to them. That idea that we all look after each other is really important to me,
00;22;38;28 - 00;22;51;08
Unknown
but also just that experience of having children four years apart. You know, my now 12 year old, when she was born, there was a lot more available for her in terms of groups and provision.
00;22;51;11 - 00;23;13;24
Unknown
And there was when my seven year old was born, which was really stark, actually. And obviously that's gone down even further in the last few years. So it also hits home in that way, like just seeing it myself and knowing how hard life is when you have children in the early years and beyond, to be honest, doesn't stop.
00;23;13;24 - 00;23;40;29
Unknown
It just changes. But certainly in the early years, and that's with provision. I could go to cafes and eat cake and walk around the park and not worry about money in the way that, you know, actually, if you're living in one room and you haven't got the money to go out or you're you haven't got a buggy to get out the door, what the impact would be on your mental health and sense of well-being and therefore your attachment with that child.
00;23;41;00 - 00;24;03;29
Unknown
So just knowing what I went through is certainly having my first daughter. When my husband went back to work very quickly, I was so lonely. And yet I had a lot more resources to support me. So it helps sharpen your focus, I suppose. Absolutely. I guess I might switch to some sort of more rapid fire or quick fire questions at this point.
00;24;04;02 - 00;24;41;00
Unknown
I don't know. I guess if there was one item that you could put into every little village shop, every baby bank across the country, what would that be? An unlimited supply of bed. Because, I mean, there's, you know, safe sleeping so critical. And we never had enough beds. So. And is there a moment that you take from this job and you spoke to earlier about some stories, but I wonder if there's anything that, you know, is the what you cite at the beginning of your team meetings or when you're trying to enthuse everyone something that really sticks with you that,
00;24;41;02 - 00;24;46;14
Unknown
well, I think I've never really worked in a charity where people use the
00;24;46;14 - 00;25;05;18
Unknown
values as much as we do at Little Village. So we always talk about particularly love and solidarity, but also thriving in sustainability. How are we going to support people with love? Are we showing solidarity? And those are real North stars for all of us actually threaded through the organization. So we do come back to that a lot.
00;25;05;18 - 00;25;30;23
Unknown
And one myth that you'd like to bust around childhood poverty or around what little Village does. Is there anything that you'd like to take the opportunity to dispel on this podcast? Families with children in poverty are not scroungers. They are doing their very best in really difficult circumstances, and it's not their fault that they are being pulled into and trapped in poverty.
00;25;30;24 - 00;25;38;21
Unknown
And we all have a responsibility to help them get out of it. Brilliant. So if you thank you so much for your time this afternoon, really appreciate it.
00;25;38;24 - 00;25;40;26
Unknown
So what I'm taking from this
00;25;40;28 - 00;26;10;11
Unknown
So what I'm taking from this conversation is something I think we all know, but rarely say out loud. The practical and the emotional are never separate. A warm cot, a warm bed, a warm welcome are all part of what a child needs to thrive. And when a family walks into a little village shop, but also when they walk into a baby zone, they need to find the community, not just the things that they need, but a partnership and people doing work together as a part of an early years community.
00;26;10;18 - 00;26;42;23
Unknown
So if he talks about dignity a lot, about making sure the experience of receiving is generous, human and never adds to the burden that whatever family might already be carrying. And what stuck with me is how much hope this gives me for our model, and for everyone that's working to support the early childhood community. We're really lucky that all of our hubs work with Little Village, and through the baby Bank Alliance, there's a network of baby banks across the country that are ready to do the same thing for families up and down the UK.
00;26;42;27 - 00;27;02;04
Unknown
So if you remember one thing, what you need to give a family in their hardest moment, it doesn't necessarily just fill a gap, it gives them opportunity and it shows that the world hasn't forgotten them. And this is what happens when organizations, organizations show up and it needs to be part of something bigger. A whole community is on their side.
00;27;02;04 - 00;27;20;15
Unknown
So. So if you thank you so much for joining me. And thank you everyone for listening to. Best beginnings A Baby's Own podcast. For more evidence informed support on babies and the early years, please subscribe to the channel if you found this helpful. Share it with someone who you think might need it. We'll see you next time. Thank you.