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Greg McGillis has started a new venture which seeks to use brain-computer interface (BCI) technology for early detection of dementia. Greg felt compelled to returned to BCI technology after first seeing it 30 years ago. He shares how this call helps him move forward in the face of opposition.
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
And welcome to another episode of Essential Dynamics. I'm Reed McColm, your gracious and good looking host, and looking forward to another conversation with my good friend, mister Derek Hudson. Derek, how are you?
Derek:Reed, I am doing great today. It's a wonderful summer day, and we've got some really cool a really cool person to talk to today. Yeah.
Reed:I think so too.
Derek:Know I always say that. Now the thing about our guest today is that other than the fact that he's an engineer, he's a really fine person.
Reed:Oh, well, I'm looking forward to meeting him. Who is he, Derek? Who do we have here in the studio?
Derek:Well, I'd like you to meet Greg McGillis.
Reed:Greg McGillis. Hello.
Greg:Hello. Good good morning.
Reed:How are you?
Greg:I'm doing very well. I I'm it's a great way to start a Friday, and we're heading off to Jasper this afternoon and evening. So for tomorrow, some friends that come to visit us. So it's a it's a great weekend. I'm looking forward to it.
Reed:Well, wonderful. That's great. I'm used to being the best looking guy in the room, but you're not so bad yourself. So let's Derek, tell me what's so special about mister McGillis.
Derek:Well, Greg is he's an entrepreneur. He's he's participating or he's he's conceived of and started a really, really interesting business venture. He's got a lot of experience including including running a significant Edmonton company for us as CEO. And he's just got a really interesting story about how we got to where he is and who he's trying to help. And one of the things that I wanna do today, is different from what we've ever done before, is I want to see if we can use the essential dynamics framework as we as Greg talks through what his business plans are, and to see if this tool that we've created is actually useful for something.
Reed:Well, that sounds like a worthy goal. I'm excited because I wanna know what all this talk about essential dynamics is. What is that?
Derek:Well, that's an excellent question, Reid. And if you're just joining us on episode 39, then you might wanna dial back to earlier episodes. But we wanna talk about things like framing up our our endeavors in the form of a quest where there's opposition. And I would what I'd like to do is kind of explore those things with Greg. So the first question for Greg is, Greg, what are you doing right now?
Derek:And the second question is, how did you find yourself in the situation that you're in now? And that's probably gonna take our whole time, but it's a cool story. So why don't you go ahead, Greg? Tell us a little bit about it.
Greg:Well, thanks, Derek. So what I'm doing right now, I'm I'm seeking to develop a solution for early detection of dementia. Ment is a really big problem in, you know, in North America, worldwide, actually. And I I ultimately want to contribute to finding a solution in what's called the preclinical stage. So that's age 45 and above before any observable clinical symptoms are are manifest.
Greg:So it's a it's a big thing. I'm I'm seeking to likely do it through brain computer interface technology. So electrophysiology be the probably the easiest analogy. EEG, electrocephagran, that type of thing. There's more to it than that, but but that's the basic idea.
Derek:Yep. So, Greg, you're you've identified a problem. Mhmm. And can you tell us a little bit more about what maybe what's the impact of of early onset dementia or this, you know, this cognitive impairment that starts? Like, what what what do people experience, and what's the challenge with detection?
Greg:Well, there's a number of things. The the main driver or the main cause of dementia is Alzheimer's disease. That's approximately seventy percent of all dementia has Alzheimer's disease at its core. And when you have Alzheimer's disease, it affects your executive functions, your ability to plan and think, affects your memory, affects your relationships, affects your bodily health. It it ruins your life.
Greg:And and when it gets into the severe stages, the moderate and the the severe severe of Alzheimer's, death is death follows pretty quickly. And we probably all experience this with family and friends. So what I'm what I'm hoping to contribute to, as I said, is to is to enable the detection of of dementia early so that they can do something about it. And there are there are quite a few really good studies going on around the world that shows that in large measure, about thirty percent of Alzheimer's based dementia could be not stopped, but prevented or delayed and the impact reduced if they do a life if we do a lifestyle change. So for example, our cardiovascular health, our diet, our sleep, our cognitive activities, all that kind of stuff, and that would have a significant impact on individuals and families, but a huge financial impact on the health care system and a huge financial impact on the on the the family.
Greg:They can the individual, I mean. They can still, you know, earn a living. They're not such a burden to their family. So it and and just a better quality of life. So it it but the key is to try to detect it as early as possible.
Greg:In addition, there are some some really cool things happening. A company called Biogen, a big med tech manufacturer, they recently, about three months ago, released an FDA approved drug called Aduhelm. And what Aduhelm does is it actually will will reduce the the amount of of a bad protein called amyloid, amyloid beta, that builds up in the brain that affects neuronal activity, they can reduce that, and hence, they can they can have a positive impact on Alzheimer's disease. So the key, though, because it's a very expensive treatment, 56,000 US per year, You you can't just give it to everybody who looks like they're getting dementia or or Alzheimer's disease dementia. You need to detect it, and and so that's that's that's the big goal.
Derek:So, Greg, you're an engineer. Mhmm. What's your specific discipline?
Greg:I'm an electrical engineer.
Derek:You're an electrical engineer by training?
Greg:By by training. And now I have a biomedical masters. Yeah. Master in biomedical engineering.
Derek:Right. And and you only got that recently. So how did you how did you go from a, you know, an electrical engineer that works with machines to having this real interest in people?
Greg:Okay. Well, that's a that's a good story. Well, good story from my perspective. So I I graduated from the U of A in 1990, and I worked at a company in Edmonton, Magenta Communications. A real visionary, Randy Marston, ran that company.
Greg:I was his first employee, and we were developing equipment for people with physical disabilities, severe disabilities, to enable them to use a telephone or computer environmental controls through, you know, sip and puff and basically no movement of any any body parts. And and part of my my my study or my research study at the time was to figure out what's the best input method, and I came across brain computer interface technology. This is thirty thirty one years ago, But it was completely just a research project. There was no commercial application for it. So after being at Mudenta for a couple years, I transitioned to the
Derek:Hey, Greg. Can I interdoc Yeah? Interrupt you? I I just wanna talk about Mudenta for a second.
Greg:Oh, Go ahead.
Derek:Some really interesting connections. So, Reid, I'm not sure if you remember or knew Randy Marsden.
Reed:The name sounds very familiar, Yeah.
Derek:So so Randy's inspiration for his company was our friend, Cy Peterson.
Reed:Oh, yeah.
Derek:And so, Greg, what you have to know is that Reed and I and Brynn and Cy's brother, Dave Peterson, were all in the same grade at Avalon Junior High School. Oh. In in the seventies. And in fact, it was on a Saturday activity at Avalon where Sai Peterson was injured. And and Cy was a quadriplegic, and Randy was inspired after he met Cy to to figure out how to make computers accessible to people with limited physical ability.
Derek:And so I knew you worked for Eddie, but I didn't realize you were his first employee.
Greg:Yeah. Yeah. He he was we worked together as students in in university, and and I guess he saw some some promise in me, and and yeah. It was great. It was a fun opportunity.
Greg:It was it was so exciting, and it was as you said earlier, it was you referenced earlier, it was awesome to be able to work on technology that would directly impact a person. It was it was fun.
Reed:I'm just astounded at what you're describing. I'm wondering if you've found in your study well, it seems to me that in order to in order to fight Alzheimer's and other dementia, one would have to know why it happens. Do we know?
Greg:Well, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I have studied this, you know, reasonable amount. There's there's two main challenges. There's two proteins that that they build up excessively and they they behave poorly, amyloid beta and phosphated tau. And what these things do, the one will build up plaque and the other will will will form plaque between neurons. So when the neuron one wants to communicate with neuron two, there's what's called the synaptic junction, and and these proteins, one of these proteins will actually clog up that junction so that the neurotransmitters don't transfer over, so there's no signal.
Greg:And then the the other affects the electrical signal through the neuron. So it just messes up the way your brain is is electrically communicating.
Reed:This sounds, forgive my simplicity, but it sounds a lot like cholesterol in the heart.
Greg:Probably very simpler. Yeah. Different different mechanism, but yeah. So
Derek:so sorry. I interrupted you, Greg. So if I go take you back to Medenta, you said, here we are working with people with limited mobility. Sai had a a thing that he could blow on and, you know, he he couldn't even move his head, but he could move his mouth and that that's how he controlled his computer in the early days and and Modenta helped him with that. But you you ran into this thing where if it could if something connect directly with the brain, wouldn't it be great to control that?
Derek:You discovered that years ago, that that was, you know, in the works, but not really possible at the time. Have you have you been working with brain interface ever since, or was that
Greg:No. No. Not at all. That was more a discovery. And then when we when we realized Rand realized it more than me because I as a young engineer, I said, let's do this.
Greg:And he said, Greg, not practical at all. Okay. Fine. I get it. So I I anyway, after a while, I I I moved to another company into the energy industry, eventually became what was known today as TitanLogix.
Greg:And and I had a really exciting time there. It was actually in the various versions and and parts of the company. I was there for twenty five years. And and we we were we are or they are a measurement instrumentation and automation company in the energy industry. So flow meters and level gauges and status systems and, you know, just distributed control systems.
Greg:There's really, really cool things that we did over those those twenty five years. And and I had many hats as an engineer, and eventually, I became the CEO of the company and and just had a great experience. Excellent people, very talented people, learned a lot. But 2018, about three years ago, the well, 2014. Sorry.
Greg:In 2014, the energy industry took a nosedive, and we're kind of in that sustained It's flipping up a little bit, but but our our we did really well. Titan was very successful with with sales and profits and market share across Canada, US. But we we lost two thirds of our revenue. Lost two thirds of our people. We had well, we had to let them go because of the the slowdown.
Greg:And then eventually, in 2018, the board said, well, we need to change the CEO. I wasn't the CEO at the time, but but the a board member came in, and he's an excellent CEO with lots of experience. Was Alvin Pike. And he said, well, Greg, I remember the day. 08:30AM on a Friday morning.
Greg:He said, Greg, this is your last day at Titan. And that was a huge gut punch. Like, I can't believe it. So it took me about a month to to recover from that. And then I I I did a lot of study and figured, what's my next move?
Greg:I met with a good friend, and we bantered back and forth for for months. And eventually, in mid December of twenty eighteen, I had a moment of clarity, I call it an epiphany, where I came to realize or envision that I wanted to go back to what I discovered thirty years ago with BCI, and and I wasn't sure what I was gonna do with it exactly. It was in the back of my mind for thirty years or ever since I saw it. I I really wanna do something with this. And I thought, well, maybe I'll I'll continue with the down the, you know, the physical disability enabling path.
Greg:And I thought a few different things, but but I just at that moment, I said I'm I'm gonna do that. So I applied to the U of T, University of Toronto, in their biomedical engineering program. So I'm 55 right now, so that was 52, 50 three, and I was scared to death because, you know, I I used to have a really good memory, but I think I remember your name as Derek. Right? I'm kidding.
Greg:The memory isn't as good as it was, and I'd be hanging out with with guys that are and gals that are 25 years old at the peak of their game, and I was scared to death. But I I I determined that in order to fulfill this vision, this epiphany, I need to go back to school. So I did that. I applied. U of T was amazing.
Greg:I my wife stayed here with the kids, and I I I did room and board in Toronto. Anyway, I just still going through all the details. I I finished it up. I finished in December of just this last December 2020. Got a master's in biomedical engineering, which is basically it's it was biomedical device development.
Greg:And and part of that, you know, I'm the old guy in the class. These these people in the class are my child's age. My my my oldest daughter is 25. And I I remember the one class I went to, the the professor came in, he said, you don't belong here. What are you doing here?
Greg:I said, no. I'm a student. So anyway, it was funny. So we I finished that up, and but in the course of all that, I should say I had some it's two professors that are just amazing, Doctor. Harold Wadlinger and Doctor.
Greg:Paul Santerre. They were excellent professors, they became great mentors and friends, and I was fortunate to be able to you have to do an internship as part of the whole project. I was able to choose my internship project, which was very unique. Actually, I was the first one in this project, in this program I was able to do, and I think they gave me a chance because I was this old guy. And and doctor Wadlinger, Harold, became my mentor, and I had to you know, I I did it on the dementia assessment, and I the MVP, minimum viable product design, on paper, not not physical.
Greg:Did a bunch of other things, and just getting myself ready to to pursue and, like, I'm continuing to pursue it now to to take it further.
Derek:So, Greg, if we if we start to layer on the the concepts from Essential Dynamics, one of the things that I explored a little bit, and we talked about it with Katie Burgess, I guess, last week, was this idea that it's one thing to find your quest or choose your quest, another thing to have it to to have been receiving to have received a call, to have the the quest thrust upon you. So you talked about your epiphany. Do you feel like there's something that you're meant to do in this space? Is that is that giving you some kind of motivation or direction now?
Greg:Well, that's a great question. It's it's really it's it's the motivation that that sustains me through the challenges. So I I did well in school. I surprised myself, but I worked like crazy. And I remember my first midterm though, I got 63%.
Greg:It was so discouraging, and I was below class average, I'm pretty sure. And I just like, oh, what a gut punch. At the end, I got 92 in the final, so I pulled it pulled it together. But but I I kept this in mind, and and all along the path when when things have been difficult, when when I just you know, I'm I'm trying to learn neuroscience and neural engineering, and it and it's hard. And I can't say I'm I'm really good at it at all, but I'm I'm learning things that I I didn't think I could learn, and it's because I I feel this drive that there's something I need to figure out, something I need to contribute to in life and hopefully make a difference.
Greg:That's that's really what I'm the core of it.
Reed:I just want to say I am terribly impressed. First of all, the gumption it takes to force a second start. A lot of people when derailed on their quest, if you will, would would not have the wherewithal to to say I'm going to I'm going to change my direction. And and the fact that you went and got another degree in a in a very different field is just admirable beyond belief. And then now you're, you know, creating a new career for yourself in your fifties.
Reed:It must have, however, in essential dynamics speak, it must have changed all your constraints, and and it must have changed how you look at at opposition. I I'm I'm just amazed you never gave up.
Greg:I wanted to just indicate that, you know, I first came across the the impact of dementia thirty five years ago, and as a young guy, I I met an older lady and her husband, and she introduced me. And I was with a friend, and and she introduced me. We went into her home, and and she started crying. And there was this man sitting there reading a paper, smiling, happy, and she said, that's my husband. She was probably in her late sixties.
Greg:He doesn't know me at all. And and then I just I just thought, wow. That's he was you know, as a young guy, 20 years old, I thought, unbelievable. So so these things, I guess, perhaps just kinda sit inside your head, and and over time, they they take take root. Yeah.
Derek:Now I see that we're running out of our time.
Reed:Yeah. This one, we could talk. We could make four episodes out of this one.
Derek:So so first thing is, yeah, we have to have you back on and and fairly soon because what we got, I think, if you wanna look at essential dynamics, is is we're we're understanding the quest and and the call. And I really like that last story because, you know, we all know people like that. Yeah. And when we think about medical problems, you know, we had Alex on a couple of weeks ago and he talked about heart health and, you know, that's more obvious. You know, you have a heart attack, you have angina, you don't, you take a pill, it gets better, you get bypass surgery, it gets better.
Derek:This kind of mental impairment, that's challenging. And one of the things that I find fascinating, Greg, is that you want to get it at the earliest stages and make people's lives better. And so that that woman, you know, the woman of the future has a way of knowing her husband for longer.
Greg:Yeah.
Derek:And a way of for both parties, both of them to manage, you know, that decline. Go ahead, Reid.
Reed:Are we making any progress generally? I don't know. It has is it seems to me there are more people with dementia now than ever, but that's all maybe because I'm only aware of it now. You know, as with aging parents or or aging myself, I I become more aware of it, but it seems are we making any progress? Is is it getting better?
Reed:I don't know.
Greg:We we are the the the rate of dementia is increasing, and in part, big part, because we're just living longer. So there and there there's lifestyle changes that people are making that that makes a difference, but the research that's going on in dementia care, dementia detection, dementia prevention is staggering. I as I've done it, you know, the last, I guess, seven, eight months, I spent a lot of time participating in webinars and conferences and seeing some amazing human beings around the world that are spending their life on this and the progress they're making. There there are there's other methods beside what I'm trying to do to detect dementia, but I I fit into a certain niche, but I'm looking at a certain niche. So so, yes, there are more people getting dementia, but there there is there are amazing breakthroughs that that are taking place in all fields today.
Greg:Amazing breakthroughs. It's very
Derek:encouraging. So it's encouraging, promising story, and early detection, like all kinds of other medical things, is key, and this is a hard one to detect. The other thing that I I don't think we should explore, I just wanna highlight is the lifestyle things that you're talking about are probably the same things that doctor Alex Clark told us to do, which included includes exercise and good diet. Right?
Reed:Am good if somebody had told us to exercise? I wasn't listening.
Greg:Well, one one of the key statements is what's good for the heart is good for the brain. That's that's a big one here with with dementia.
Derek:Well, you know, we talk about opposing forces, but it's nice to have them lined up too. So take care of your heart, take care of your body. It's good for your brain too.
Greg:I should be very careful here. I don't want to leave any impression that that you just lifestyle and self fix because it's a real disease. The amyloid beta and and phosphate and tau, that's a huge disease. So Yeah. You can just you can just mitigate, reduce the impact, and delay it.
Greg:That's that's all. In in in about a third of the cases from the current research.
Derek:So, Greg, let's let's get back together because I wanna hear about your drivers and constraints. But like I said, I was enthralled, and I'm really grateful for you sharing how you started on your quest.
Reed:Mhmm. Very much so.
Derek:So so thanks for that. I'm also think it's super cool that we have this connection going back to to Cy Peterson, who is a hero of ours.
Reed:Mhmm. Very much so.
Derek:And so thanks thanks for making that connection. I'd forgotten about that.
Reed:If people wanted to get hold of you, do you have a website, or is there some place that they can research more about what you're doing?
Greg:No. I don't have a website. I'm I'm intentionally not putting anything out there yet. But if you wanna get a hold of me, they can just email me. That's the best way.
Greg:Okay. It's gMcGillis@Gmail.com.
Reed:That's Gregory McGillis, our our guest. For Derek Hudson, who is in who has come up with the perspective of essential dynamics. And for bring Griffiths in the studio, I'm Reed McColm. And until next time, consider your quest.