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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome back to Long Game Heat of Rivalry podcast. We have finally reached the end. We are on episode 6 and similar to episode 5 because there is just so much content and what we're talking about. We're going to split it into two parts. So this one will probably be a bit more extensive than the previous ones. But that's just because there is so much to talk about in this episode. One of the best episodes of TV in a very long time. So
Selvin, where do you want to start?
Silvan (00:32)
Declan, can I just say, we're at the cottage.
Declan (00:36)
We're at the cottage. We made it to the cottage.
Silvan (00:38)
I have been so excited to do this one with you because there is, like you said, there's so much and there is so much to talk about.
Declan (00:48)
yeah, 100%. Like, first of all, let's get the elephant out of the room. He said this cottage would be private. That is a glass mansion that he has slapped on the side of a lake. That is not a regular cottage. When I think cottage, I think the holiday. I ⁓ stone brick, cobblestone house, little one story tiny thing in the English countryside.
not this like glass metropolis he's brought him to but it's so funny ⁓ honestly so good
Silvan (01:26)
So apparently Canadians have a different definition of what a cottage looks like than we do on our side of the
Declan (01:32)
Yeah, 100 % ours do not look like that. They're usually very small in the middle of nowhere and rattle with damp. So yeah, that's our cottage experience. So I was excited to see what they would come up with. And it just turned out to be this wooden lodge in the Canadian mountains surrounded by this beautiful lake. By the way, location scouting on this episode was so good.
Silvan (01:45)
Yeah.
Declan (02:00)
They stick to such a good spot. just, for me, it was right out of the book and it just, it just worked. It was so lovely.
Silvan (02:08)
interesting. So was it very open and glass panelled in the book as well?
Declan (02:14)
Yes, it would have been. No, I'm saying that with a lot of confidence. I'm like, I'm always going to be 100 % sure. Right. So I read these books twice, but my memory is like a sev. So if this cottage in the book doesn't have glass windows, I swear to God, I don't want to hear about it, but I am pretty sure that there are glass windows in the cottage in the book. And it does remind me of the image that Shane paints whenever he's introducing Ilya to the cottage.
I'm pretty sure.
Silvan (02:46)
I'm sure that lots of people out there will correct us if we've got anything wrong, so.
Declan (02:50)
Oh,
100%. Not to worry about that.
Silvan (02:54)
I mean, our digital footprint is embedded now. There's no going back.
Declan (02:57)
Yeah,
yeah, I love to be recorded being wrong all the time.
Silvan (03:04)
So my general impression of this episode was that for me this was one of the funniest episodes of the entire series.
Declan (03:07)
Mm-hmm.
100 % and it's one of the funniest parts of the entire book as well. The interaction by the fire, the stupid Canadian wolf bird. Seeing the book, that was so funny and it was delivered really nicely in the show as well but I was looking forward to that part. was hilarious.
Silvan (03:33)
Like I didn't, mean, they've always given us elements of comedy throughout the show. But with this one, almost felt like it's the last episode. have nothing to lose. Let's ramp it up to a hundred and make Ilya the funniest character of the entire show.
Declan (03:37)
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, because that's what his inner monologue is like. Like he is now just doing his inner monologue out loud where you actually realize how funny of a character he is. ⁓ Like in the books, you know, when they meet at the airport and it's all very like shades are on whatever and he gets out of Shane's car for the first time and Shane has this very sensible, ⁓ very ⁓ middle, middle class, middle range car. Basically, Ilya is like, why are you driving this in the show?
the book he's actually like you realise that you're a millionaire and that you could like you could buy something that is actually good because he also has a thing for cars as well in the book and it just sort of plays on that little thing about him this little little personality trait but again that was such a funny moment i'm surprised he didn't do it in the show i i was waiting for that so i was i was waiting for illya to give shane some grief about his car choice
Silvan (04:43)
I mean, he did a little bit. He's like, what are you driving? And he's like, it's British. It's dependable. It's a Jeep.
Declan (04:48)
He's
trying to justify it.
Silvan (04:51)
is so chain coded, like something that's dependable is obviously what he's going to buy.
Declan (04:54)
⁓
why would I spend money buying something that isn't as practical as this car? When Ilya's like, will literally buy the stupidest sports car that I can because it makes me feel good. And that's so representative of their personalities as well. Ilya does so much just for the love of it. Whereas Shane, there always seems to need to be a purpose to everything that he does. And it has to serve something. So yeah, an R, nice bit of characterization. Even now, as we were in the last episode, So Jacob Tierney never takes the foot off the pedal so he doesn't.
Silvan (05:02)
right?
Literally, he's got his foot on that Jeep and he's going 100 miles an hour. Yeah. And even before we get to that scene where ⁓ Shane picks up Ilya from the airport, if we go back one scene, because it actually starts off, so we start this episode off with Scott accepting the award ⁓ at the hockey awards thing. What was your take on the speech that he gave?
Declan (05:30)
100 % yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
felt like it was a nice way to start that episode because so much of Scott and Kip's story, we could have left it there but I think it's nice to give them the opportunity to wrap it up in a way which is really organic and fits into the story nicely. But yeah, I just felt like the whole thing was quite sweet. It was quite honest in lot of ways and it did feel like
whenever they were writing that part of the show that a lot of care and thought went into the way in which Scott presented himself in that moment. And yeah, I just thought it was a really lovely scene that they put in and I wasn't actually expecting it. I was expecting to go fully into the cottage, but it was nice to have that little moment where we get to see his thoughts and feelings and where this massive lifestep that he's taken.
has sort of what it's resulted in and he has this new find love now and he just wants to talk about it and it's so sweet.
Silvan (06:59)
is. And I think even the wording of the speech, and I'm interested in language and it's what I want to do and what I want to study. But when he says things like, know what it feels like not to fit in, I'm the thing that hockey players throw around as an insult, and it's a constant reminder that I was different. And when you have a secret, it's exhausting. It's really, really lonely. That hit me.
Declan (07:26)
Yeah, and we talked about this, like what it's like to live with that weight of having that big secret hiding over your head. And it's like a universal experience for any sort of queer person that's hiding who they are. And I think that's what makes the speech so relatable as well, because I've been there. I've so felt that before where I have been around, especially when I was in school, I mean, the like
the F word was thrown around left and right and it was just rolled up. It was tongue so easily. And you can't help but create an association between that word and yourself if that is who you are. And you just have this negative connotation that you then attach to it. And it creates a lot of self-loathing as well. And while you're doing all that, you're trying to battle these thoughts in your head, which you've been taught are wrong. Whilst trying to love your life as well. Like dealing with all this, especially as a teenager, when you have
hormones and everything else going on. Like it's such a massive challenge. And I find it would be a very interesting thing to, you know, get a perspective from someone who is a bit older, like, you know, like Scott's character as Scott's character is either nearly in his forties or he is in his forties. ⁓ What it was like to carry that through for that length of time, like that weight, like
Oh my God, that was like torturous. Like I couldn't imagine doing that. And some people go their entire lives holding that feeling in their chest. It's just so sad. So I'm glad that, you know, that feeling, that experience got lip service in a way which was communicated in the show really effectively, I think. I hope it's something that people who aren't queer
are now able to appreciate as being a really tough experience for people like us.
Silvan (09:22)
I so agree. And I really like that you make that distinction between having to bear that weight and that burden in a way throughout your very formative teen years. And they are, you've got hormones going everywhere, like you said, but those are the years that really shape you in a way. And to have that negative connotation and that negative connotation to your self-identity and your self-worth, it takes a toll on you psychologically.
Declan (09:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (09:51)
But I like the way that you mark that. Imagine if people weren't able to come out like Scott or chose not to come out and having to bear that throughout your adulthood as well. It's,
I mean, fortunately, I don't know anyone who's had to bear that. I'm sure there are people out there who have come out much, much later in life, but I can't imagine what that must have been like. I I already came out a little later than the conventional age anyway, and that was tough. But having to bear that right to your forties, it's almost like you can't be you.
Declan (10:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
No, you can't be that truest version of you. And it's funny, I was studying this week and someone that we were looking into was life stages. Um, that was sort of coined by Eric Erickson. And that's like, so much of who you are, what you want in life is set in your early stages, especially in your adolescence and your, um, sort of young adult years, that sort of 18 onwards, say about 40.
And in that time, you're supposed to be developing really strong emotional connections with people. You're supposed to be pursuing the ideal version of yourself that you want to see. If you can't do that, you can sort of move on. You will never feel fully complete. Like you're ready to transition your life into different sort of stages and different times and new types of experiences. Like, you know, there's so much to enjoy about being an older adult that
you maybe can't because you've never dealt with this aspect of your life at all and how much of yourself is being held back as a result of that. ⁓ Yeah, there is so much struggle in that sort of discussion and I think it's really worthwhile for it to be brought into the sort of mainstream media in a way like this. ⁓ Such a universal experience which goes so under-reported. ⁓ Yeah, I just think it's such a good idea and I like that Scott's older.
I do like that the story is about a guy who is approaching his 40s or is in his 40s. I think it's an underrepresented demographic. So it is, especially when depicting gay romance. So I really like that, you know, Jacob Tierney doesn't try to change the ages from what they are in the book, because in the book Scott's actually a lot older as well. He's definitely a mature sort of hockey player and he is well respected. But yeah, I'm glad that
Silvan (11:56)
Yes.
Declan (12:24)
that element was kept because it's very easy to put in a couple of hot young guys and do the exact same story, but I think it holds more weight this way. And I think it gives good representation to those age groups that are sometimes just passed on.
Silvan (12:39)
I agree. in a way, I was thinking about this whole scene and how it was shot and what it represents. And in a way, I'm thinking, is this the epilogue that we needed for Scott and Kip? So I don't know what it's like in the book, but for me, was like, this feels satisfying. This feels like they've brought that story to a close. I don't know what it's like in the other books. I don't know what it's like in any of the books. ⁓
This very much felt like an epilogue for their story. I don't know what it was like for you reading it.
Declan (13:14)
To be honest,
I cannot remember and I'm not going to say that I do. ⁓ But like you said, it is a nice wrap up. It does feel like a nice epilogue to their story and it gives you a bit of hope for Shane and Ilya. So it does. It is that really hopeful moment. I really like the way it shot as well. Like there is something very vulnerable about that. it's basically ⁓ Scott
on a stage by himself, no one around him, the light is shining down his head, he is fully exposed and he is just living his truth. He is being open and honest and vulnerable and it shows in the exact same way that it's got. just yeah it's just very beautifully sort of constructed and I'm constantly reminded by this sort of absolutely featherweight budget that they had to make this show and how they've
really used a lot of their resources in very clever ways. Honestly, I think sometimes when a show has too large a budget, will not take risks or will try to not be smart with certain shots and certain resources and locations and things like that. This is the same stage that Shane and Ilya were on a few episodes back whenever they were doing their award and they were doing their little bit.
It's nice that they took the opportunity to bring that back so that Scott could have his speech on the same stage. I think it was a really nice thing to do. But I can appreciate the efficiency of the filmmaking in this show. I think it's been done so great.
Silvan (14:58)
Yeah. And in a way, the symbolism of it, we've talked before about how Scott is alone in his journey. And when he does come out, he's alone on that stage. And there is an element of truth in that when you are in the process of coming out or you have come out, it does feel very isolating. And you feel like you're the only one. And it very much symbolizes that. But then we get this shot of Kip in the bar with his friends and with Elena and everyone else.
Declan (15:26)
without shaming the computer.
Silvan (15:28)
And again, skip is always surrounded by people.
Declan (15:32)
Yeah, I love that little detail that Kip is constantly surrounded. He is like a warm hug personified. There's just something so comforting and friendly about his vibe and having him surrounded constantly by this group of friends that love and adore him. It's just so great. And then having him and the rest of them then rooting Scott on. They're now part of the family as well. Like Scott doesn't just have Kip. He has everyone that comes along with Kip too.
And that is just such a wonderful representation of his change and circumstances where, you know, he might be out there alone giving the speech and he's being brave and he's, he's owning his own moment, but behind the scenes, you know, the family is there now that that family has been after his entire life is now there. They're rooting for him. They're, they're getting emotional. They're, they're so invested in his experience and, and what's happening with him. And it's just such a lovely moment. It's just so well done.
Silvan (16:30)
has his people now rooting for him like you said and what I want to see and I don't know if it ever happens and in my head it's happened but I want Scott to walk into that bar finally.
But bars and especially gay bars are so important ⁓ as you develop into your own identity and you find other people and you make friends and you share that experience. And I feel like a lot of people did that through going out and going to gay bars or gay clubs, for example. That's where they started to sort of really feel comfortable.
Declan (17:03)
video.
Silvan (17:08)
with their own identity because you were surrounded by other gay men and it felt normal. It felt like you weren't in the minority anymore. So I feel like that gay bar really represents something special.
Declan (17:18)
Yeah
Yeah, definitely.
It's definitely a safe space for them. And I noticed that a lot of sort of Kip's intimate discussions whenever his friends are talking to him are happening in the bar and this sort of safe space. And obviously they all know that the bartender Kyle constantly gets a shout out. You might see him again. But yeah, there is just a really relaxed, intimate atmosphere in the bar. And I do like the way that
hip always sort of goes there whenever there's like an emotional moment happening or he's like gushing over somebody or he's having a hard time and just does seem to be a safe space for him. For me personally, I never spent a lot of time in gay bars as like an out gay man. Now I have been to gay clubs and stuff like that there and for me, yeah, I did get that feeling of sort of like, oh, I can just sort of, yeah, this is okay then. It's cool in here. That's amazing. It's like a place of belonging.
⁓ yeah, it's, definitely does. It gives you a different sort of vibe. It gives you a different sort of safety in a lot of ways. ⁓ just based on my limited experience, just because I got, when I was out, I was in typically long-term relationships. And so I never really had much sort of reason to be going back to bars or, or nightclubs, ⁓ like that anymore. But, ⁓ whenever I did then, and I did spend time, ⁓ sort of with people that are
identifies queer from the LGBTQ community. was a different experience and it did feel very secure and felt like a safe space.
Silvan (19:04)
So where were your safe spaces then if they weren't at bars or clubs? Where did you feel, I'm good?
Declan (19:14)
think I was very lucky with the friends that I fell into and it's funny like 99 % of my friends are all straight but they are so open and so friendly and loving and full of affection that wherever we went was my safe space. I never felt out of place. Now in terms of like pursuing a romantic thing with somebody I never really did that face to face to begin with. Everything was always like online dating or something like that.
And then like maybe I would go out to bar with somebody or whatever, but it was never in strictly queer spaces. So yeah, my experience has been a lot different to a lot of gay guys I realized as I was sort of getting older and spending more time around all our gay people. ⁓ Yeah, I don't know if it's bad thing or anything. I think I was just lucky to have that space created for me by the people that I chose to be friends with, even though they couldn't fully relate to my experience. They just
wanted me to sort of be happy and feel safe and I got that energy from them. So yeah, I was just very lucky.
Silvan (20:21)
Yeah, I can relate in a way because now my safe space is with my very good group of gay male friends. And we started playing in an LGBTQ sort of volleyball league together and we developed like a really good friendship from that. And to me, that's my safe space. They're very much club and bar people. I will go for the first hour and then I'm home. ⁓
Declan (20:30)
you
See ya.
Silvan (20:48)
There's nothing wrong with bars or clubs. I promise I like to dance. I love the music. It's just, I'm very old and I get tired ⁓ and I don't drink. So my peak is like 10.30.
Declan (20:57)
Yeah,
yeah, it's it's I'm telling you right now. It's not the same experience when you're sober. Now, obviously you can still have a good time whenever you're sober, but there is a hard limit to how long you want to stay after a certain time and I get that totally.
Silvan (21:12)
Yeah. And so for me, when I started going out to bars and everything, wasn't even in my country. You know, it was when I went to LA for the first time and I was like, no one knows me here. I can be anyone I want. And I did. I, back then we didn't have like smartphones and stuff like that. So I literally wrote all the addresses down on a piece of paper and you know, I went to the Abbey and in LA and I went to WeHo and I did all of that. And
Declan (21:36)
no way.
Silvan (21:40)
It was terrifying the first time. Like I was like, what, what am I doing? Who, who do I think I am that I can just walk into these spaces? And you know, it was the most welcoming, most friendly environments that I've ever been in. And I made friends and we hung out for the whole week. We're like, okay, Monday we go here, Tuesday we go here. And I was like, shit, they have, they have a whole routine down. Like Wednesday was drag Sunday, you know, was.
Declan (21:49)
Yeah.
Silvan (22:09)
was the Abbey and that's where you saw all the beautiful men. And I was like, okay, sure, let's do this. And so for me, that was my introduction. And so that bar was set really high, but similar to you, that wasn't where I resonated. That was an experiment for me. That was me testing my boundaries, me dancing with go-go boys. my God, that was so much fun. But my safe space was with my friends. It was
Declan (22:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
You
Silvan (22:38)
sitting down, having dinner together, know, really feeling comfortable quite literally. ⁓ So it's interesting that, and I don't think you would have missed out on anything if you didn't have that experience for anyone listening or even for you. I missed out on anything, truly.
Declan (22:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like I missed out on the opportunity to make more queer friends. I think it becomes harder as you get older and it becomes harder when you're in a relationship as well because there are certain expectations with the way you behave as well around certain people. yeah, it can be, yeah, it can feel like a missed opportunity at times, but you you can still get elements of that experience without having the full, you know, young, drunken,
out there partying all the time and just talking and meeting anybody that you want. Yeah, like that experience, you you can still have elements of that experience whenever you're older, you know, pining after it and wishing that you had something different, know, Contra blessings. Like I can anyway, because the people that I ended up with, my close-knit group were amazing and I wouldn't trade them for anything.
⁓ so I'm glad that I had the positive experiences that I had with them in return for the ones that maybe I didn't get. so I can't really complain. think I, I had a great, a great network and a really positive experience and I was really, really well looked after whenever I came out and, I had lots of people who loved and cared for me and no pushback basically at all. No, questions, no, no I've always raised just, okay.
We're happy for you and we hope this works out. And that was it. And I had such a positive experience. I'm so grateful that I was surrounded by the kind of people that gave me that time and that space. So yeah, very, very grateful.
Silvan (24:29)
All I heard was like, you're single and I'm not. And I'm like, thanks, Declan, thanks. Maybe we should keep that in. Well, honestly,
Declan (24:34)
⁓ sorry, sorry, Sullivan. You'll find the one. You'll find the one, don't worry. When
when it comes to dating, I am like, I want that thing. I'm going to go for the thing. And if the thing, if I don't get a good response back, okay, so I'll just go and look elsewhere. It's, I don't know. I see whenever I was younger, I had a lot less confidence and a lot of aspects of my life, but see when it came to like being
I was finally out and it came to dating and stuff like that there I literally had no fear whatsoever I had so much confidence I have absolutely no idea where it came from but I was just sort of like well this is what I want and I like you do you like me you don't like me okay then I'm just gonna let this go then ⁓ like I actually told the guy I think I like you more than you like me and I need you to tell me if that's actually true because I don't want to waste any more time on this and he was like well
I just got out of the rice shit my boyfriend to you and I was like, that's okay. It's all I to know. Get talking to me. I think we're, we're, we're done. But it honestly just takes a bit of confidence and surety just to fucking go for it. I mean, worst thing they can say is no. And in that case you pick your pride up and you walk on. That's it.
Silvan (25:56)
I think there's an element of truth in that, in that when you are younger, you're a bit, I want to say the word brave, but I'm not sure if that's the right word. But there is this lack of frontal lobe development where you just take lots of risks. And certainly when I was in my 10 years ago, I was going on dates every night of the week. was one, I remember very distinctly that I went on five dates in the same week with different people.
Declan (26:22)
You didn't like the watch? It's been too good.
I... I felt guilty.
Silvan (26:27)
Like, I...
Sorry.
Declan (26:30)
I, if I, when I did that, I felt guilty if I had like, yeah, like I, I am like, I don't know, continue, continue on what you were going to say because my head's taking me some kind of a spin.
Silvan (26:35)
Really?
I mean, nothing
salacious happened. Like it was, it was all preset anyway. And what I wanted to do was really put myself out there. And so, you know, it was Monday, Monday to Friday. And I remember the last day I was going to see Adele in concert as well. So I had to cut the date short. I was like, we've got to wrap up because like my tickets are back home. And this is when you had physical tickets to get in. but it was different guys, but I will say like,
Declan (26:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (27:10)
nothing salacious happened. was like coffee dates, park dates. I don't even kiss on the first date. So that's not even something I do. for me, firstly, it boosted my confidence because I just had to put myself out there. But also what it did was it made me be a lot more honest. So on the way home, like walking back to the tube, and I was very, maybe in a similar way to you, but I was very
Declan (27:14)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (27:39)
upfront and I would say, you know, I don't think this is going to work out. I don't really see anything going forward, like nothing wrong or anything, but I was very upfront about whether I wanted to see this person again or not.
Declan (27:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think it's, you have to, because you're wasting both your time, which isn't fair on you and it's not fair on them. So like, and it is awkward, it is really awkward and, but it's also not right to go to somebody. So you kind of need to have the conversation. Like that's just like, hate dating 100%. See if I became single again, I would be absolutely fucking furious because I hate dating.
It is so, there's just so much passive reading in it and between the lines and I, oh, no, no, forget about it, whatever, absolutely not. So I don't envy you. But in my experience, and I did have a fair bit of it back in the day, you just be direct with people because I feel like be direct, but kind. You do.
What's that say? An honest day without sensitivity is brutality. And you will get a lot better back of response and a less aggressive response and confrontational response if you treat someone with respect and kindness whenever you are letting them down. And that's all you can really do. I mean, you also can control how they're going to react, but you can control your delivery so you can. So there you go.
Silvan (29:12)
This is how I know you read way more books than I do, because the book I was going to quote was, He's just not that into you.
Declan (29:20)
I don't know what book that is from. That's something that someone told me once and it stuck like a magnet in my brain so it did and I was like that is so that's just really clever advice.
Silvan (29:33)
So it was an episode of Sex and the City and I think they also had a book out as well. So this is how I know we've watched different generational TV shows. ⁓
Declan (29:42)
My sister loves sex and so she had to full box it.
Silvan (29:47)
same. And I bought the book and then, yeah, so you're a lot more literary, thankfully, given this is what we're doing. So I'm happy to bring the Smut and the WeHo experiences.
Declan (30:05)
I mean, amount of smut books that I've read is criminal, I don't know. Yeah, don't worry, I can meet that energy. ⁓
Silvan (30:16)
So speaking of Smutty Books, did you like that segue? ⁓ Coming back to this episode then, when, I don't know if you noticed, but when we have those opening credits, so we've seen Scott into the speech and then we've seen Ilya come into the car and then we get the heated rivalry sort of blow out. There is a loon in the background. You can hear the loon.
Declan (30:20)
Thank you.
for you.
Is there actually?
That's such a funny detail too it is. Yeah I love the idea of Illya having this fear of this bird ⁓ because to be fair for anyone who is not Canadian that's a weird effing bird. Like no other bird sounds like that. This is a completely unique thing that you guys have and yeah it is weird. So I'm on team Illya with this one it is a weird wolf bird so
Silvan (31:08)
I just thought Connor's Storrie's comedic timing was so good because it was the reactions to the reactions and then playing off Shane's reactions that really cemented to me. This guy is going to win an Oscar one day. I don't know when, but.
Declan (31:24)
⁓ 100%.
Yeah, I can see him winning an Oscar. I mean, the fact that in episode five, the Russian actors from whenever they were doing the Moscow scene ⁓ were trying to talk to Connor Storrie in actual Russian because he was so convincing in his sort of portrayal Like, what? Like, that has to be the biggest compliment to him as an actor that literally these people from this country thought you were Russian.
because of your mannerisms and the way you spoke and the way that you communicated the language. Like that's crazy. ⁓ so yeah, I, I see, I see an Oscar in his horizons. I think he would have an Emmy if they qualified for one this time around, honestly, I do think, but due to whatever hijinks and background rules or whatever, the show can't be nominated for one, but a hundred percent, he would be definitely a big contender for, for a lead actor.
in a television show if the Emmys were including them. So, yeah.
Silvan (32:27)
Yeah, maybe a Golden Globe, who knows.
Declan (32:30)
We'll see. We'll see next year.
Silvan (32:33)
Yeah. So when I'm thinking about sort of, you know, them in the car, I'm struck by how we know from like earlier in the season that Shane says when his parents are trying to get him to go to Wimbledon and meet the Swedish royalty person, he's like, I only get two weeks off a year. I'm not going to Wimbledon and talking to people that I don't know and so forth. And in this car ride, he goes to, he tells Ilya like,
Declan (32:49)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (33:03)
I want to relax with you for once.
Declan (33:06)
Yeah, yeah, he-
Silvan (33:07)
And this is the two weeks he gets to relax.
Declan (33:10)
Yeah, like what do you think that says about how significant he finds this?
Silvan (33:17)
I mean, Ilya has become his world now. He's in.
Declan (33:21)
Yeah, he's in there. He is fully inserted himself. Like Shane would only spend this time with his family and he clearly now views Ilya as a very strong contender to be led into that sort of very exclusive group that Shane has created. Yeah, it's such a beautiful detail that this is Shane's world now that we're entering and he's invited Ilya in.
And not only has he invited them in, he is welcoming him with open arms. I've stocked the fridge, I've got us this stuff and we don't need to leave the house and we will be completely unbothered and it will just be me and you. Like, my God, how romantic. ⁓
Silvan (34:07)
Right? mean, if somebody wanted to like grocery shop for me and anticipate all my needs, this is almost, you know, the mirroring of what Ilya did when Shane went to his apartment with the ginger ale and the tuna melt.
Declan (34:19)
⁓
Yeah, it's almost like he's making amends for that time as well. Like he's really, really trying to make sure that Ilya feels comfortable in this place. And it's funny, it's happening in the car when the conversations become a bit awkward. I think that's sort of like, this is new territory now. They've not really been alone together like this before. ⁓ They don't know what it means for their relationship.
They're used to just going in, having the sex and then bantering afterwards, but now they're like, like, we're going to drive here for the next few hours and we're going to be stuck in this car together and we're going to need to talk about something. you get the, the proper couple struggle whenever you're in the car. ⁓ yeah, plenty of arguments have started in my relationship over that. So I can just imagine how these two have such interesting personalities.
Silvan (35:01)
Yeah, and who gets the aux cable for the phone to play music?
Hahaha
Declan (35:17)
sort of points off one another in that respect. Like yeah the fanfic writes itself truly.
Silvan (35:23)
Honestly, art imitates life and vice versa. And what really struck me is, as you were talking, is it's almost like they've had this long distance relationship where they get moments with each other, but now they've got like a solid two weeks. This is going to be a real test for them because this is where you really get to know somebody and, you know, do they fart in their sleep? Is their morning breath like, you know, nuclear kind of thing?
Declan (35:49)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. the veneer, like the polishedness of the way they were presenting themselves before is completely removed now. This is just living together for two weeks. Like this is what couples should be doing if they're planning on moving in together because this is a good test to take this amount of time away and be with each other in each other's space where you're both messing it and who keeps it clean, who you...
God, you used my toothbrush, you did that. That sort of, those little moments that test whether or not you have the patience and the love and acceptance to want to be with someone in that kind of way. ⁓ So yeah, yeah, it's such an interesting sort of environment for Rachel Reed to set up in her book especially, ⁓ to take these guys from seeing each other.
no longer than like 12 hours at a time at most to now putting them together for two uninterrupted weeks. Such a clever idea because it changes the dynamic of the relationship completely. What we know no longer applies. We're going to see how this carries out in real terms. yeah, it's such a fun setup.
Silvan (37:04)
Yeah.
And I like that you noticed that awkwardness in the beginning because it was very, very obvious. And for me, when that awkwardness started to sort of dissipate was when they held hands in the car. And I knew that was not a manual car because here in the UK, there was no way you're going to be able to hold someone's whilst they're driving or you will die.
Declan (37:16)
Yeah.
No, I don't drive a manual anymore because it's stupid. This is pride, complete utter pride that people in the UK still are driving primarily manuals. No, I can drive a manual. I have my license on a manual, but as soon as I step foot in an automatic, never again. Never. It's like driving a bumper car. It is so easy. So no, I'm anti-manual.
just so you know about me haters.
Silvan (37:57)
I'm... I'm...
I am a manual guy. I had an automatic, hated it.
Declan (38:03)
No way, why?
Silvan (38:05)
Well, because it did feel like driving a bumper car and and like, I do a lot of motorway driving and you couldn't get to the speed quick enough that I wanted to get to. And so you'd wait and it would shift and wait and it would shift and I'm like, just go.
Declan (38:20)
no, you just need to put your fit down harder. Or drive my car. My car takes off like a bullet. My car takes off like a bullet, even though it's like 16 years old. Like, she's never let me down. Touch wood. So, yeah, I think you just weren't in a fast enough car.
Silvan (38:25)
I feel like that's advice for so many things.
Maybe. I mean it was a Mercedes, so...
Declan (38:44)
Thanks.
Silvan (38:46)
There you go. I love that we're still learning stuff about each other whilst talking about the show. But yeah, you really see that sort of softness come into it when they start holding hands. And I think especially when they, the establishing shot, when they enter, when they get to the cottage rather. So now we have been anticipating this cottage for so long. And
Declan (38:49)
Exactly, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
going out.
Silvan (39:10)
You know, we talked about sort of what we thought the cottage would look like. And you're right. I always thought about like our little hobbit house, really did not expect this mansion type glass.
Declan (39:17)
Yeah, yeah.
was thinking, so yeah.
Silvan (39:23)
Monstrosity.
Yeah. And what I noticed when I was watching this scene was as soon as they get to the cottage and right through when they go into the house, it's a one shot. And so there's no cut. There's no scene changes. There's none of that. And if anyone listens or watches Valentina V, I think she's on TikTok and on Instagram.
Declan (39:38)
Yeah
Silvan (39:50)
She's a cinematographer and she's broken down a lot of these scenes and she articulates it much, much better than I do. So I'm borrowing her from her. But to be able to do that kind of one shot establishing shot like that, it's so hard. It's very theater like. You would not do that typically in movies and TV shows because if one person messes up or you see a boom mic, you have to reset the whole entire shot. So it's not done.
Declan (40:03)
You
Yeah.
MasterCard will work,
yeah.
Silvan (40:19)
typically, but it lent this fluidity and it mirrored this fluidity between the glass paneling and the house for me where everything felt really expansive.
Declan (40:32)
Yeah. And for me, it was mimicking Ilya taking all this in. It was representing him going, whoa, like this is what this is what all your estate agent stuff has paid off or like you built this like, my God, look at this place. It's beautiful. And you do get the sweeping scope of it, how open and beautiful then.
Keep in mind these guys have been in hotel rooms in dark corners, stealing little moments together in these small cramped spaces where the planes are closed, no one can be seen. And now you have this wide open expanse, these windows, the light shining in, everything is open there. They're open to the world. Everyone can look in and see, even though they're in a very private area and that wouldn't happen. yeah, it just, it feels like it's
perfectly expressing the sort of awe that Ilya has of being in this space now that Shane has created for them and this is the thing Shane, Shane created the house, designed this house, he built it like this is his project like it almost feels like he built it for Ilya in a sense that's the kind of thing I get like giving him everything that they couldn't have an openness of freedom an expression of
you know, not needing to hide. Like there is so much that could be taken from the cottage, the way it's designed, the way that that moment is shot. Yeah, there could be a lot of, there's a lot going on in the background there that you could sort of, you know, infer from the way it's being presented. think the directing in this and honestly, I didn't know who Jacob Tierney was before this show. He is a phenomenal director. Really, really phenomenal.
⁓ And the crew that worked on this show, the cinematographer, ⁓ lighting specialist, like very, very, very talented people. I have to say very talented and I hope they all have very, very big careers after the show.
Silvan (42:39)
Right?
I hope they get bonuses for season two because do know how hard it must be to shoot in glass? Like with the reflections and the light?
Declan (42:51)
my god, it's a nightmare, know, it's everywhere. Yeah,
yeah, it's a pain in the ass. Like whenever I was doing my college work and things got there, I avoided it like the plague because it's just so messy and it's not worth trying to try to get rid of it in editing. It's too hard and takes too much time. Yeah, no, definitely. Very, very talented crew. like you said, that establishing shot, that is, there's so much in that.
Silvan (43:20)
And it sets that expectation. In fact, one of the lines that comes to me when, when Ilya walks in, firstly, did you notice he wipes his feet first? You can't see the feet, but you see the motions of it. And then he takes his shoes off when he enters. And I was like, the boy is trained. The boy has been trained.
Declan (43:36)
The boys prayed, yes.
I'm pretty sure Shane had him taking his shoes off at the door whenever he entered the hotel room and that has been going on for years. 110%. I think that's a funny detail, but yeah, it's really cute. It's just, yeah, they just know each other so well at this point.
Silvan (43:55)
you forget and I think when you were talking about you know perhaps Shane has built this for Ilya it struck me because I forgot how long we've been watching these characters for it's it's almost eight to ten years now
Declan (44:08)
⁓
It's longer than most friendships last. I think that's what's so tragic about this relationship between the two of them is that at least we Scott and Kip, they ended it pretty quick.
So they did and Scott resolved his issue pretty fast as well. With Shane and Ilya, my god, it's just been going on and they're always playing in the back of each other's minds and it comes out in little things like this or big things like this where I think that's why Ilya immediately just starts kissing him because there has to be an element of freedom in that now. And maybe he also is thinking in the back, said, like, he do this for me?
my god, like this place is beautiful. It's so open, it's so freeing, it's everything that Shane hasn't been for him up until this point. It's everything Ilya sort of wanted to get out of him. And it's fully represented now in this huge house, this project that Shane has done and has opened up to Ilya. And yeah, it's such a beautiful moment.
Silvan (45:16)
This is when in the notebook, and I don't know you've watched the notebook or if everyone else listening has watched the notebook. This is when Noah builds Ali the house.
Declan (45:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of a perfect representation of their love for each other. Yeah, such yeah, such a cute moment. And I do hope that was intentional. I do hope that little that little detail of Shane having built the cottage. Because again, I'm not 100 percent sure, but I don't think in the book Shane has built the cottage. I think he lives in it. I think.
Yeah, I don't think he built it. So if it is the case that he didn't build it in the book and that he built it in the show, I think that would be a nice change. Now, if it's the case that I'm wrong, I don't want to hear about it. yeah, there you go.
Silvan (45:55)
Interesting.
Well, I'm the one reading all the messages, so I get to hear it.
Declan (46:12)
⁓ That's
okay, you can just filter them out so I can live in my Delululand where I'm correct all the time.
Silvan (46:18)
Honestly, I only send Declan all the nice ones. So to be honest, you only see this one representation of all the reviews that we're getting. ⁓ But what I really like is Ilya was like, your real estate fetish really paid off. And I just thought, my God, this is Ilya. This is Ilya now being himself. And Shane was like, ⁓ I had it built and I have a well, you know, if you're thirsty, in case you're thirsty. And then like he gives...
Declan (46:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (46:47)
He gives Ilya this look like, we're both thirsty, let's be honest.
Declan (46:51)
Yeah, yeah, let's let's get this on the road like
Silvan (46:55)
Well, because then they, you know, when that scene develops and they're both on the sofa and they have that conversation about, it's been a while, it might not last. I thought, how honest is that? Because I don't know if I would have said that out loud to somebody I was hooking up with.
Declan (47:03)
Yeah.
see, they're not hooking up anymore. This is, this is now, we're now, I like that element of let's just be honest with each other this entire weekend, we're just going to say what we're thinking. And I like that choice. It's the, the promise to be open with one another in this huge open space with this freedom to do and say whatever they can. And they're just going to have this space and you're going to make use of it.
Silvan (47:16)
Yeah
Declan (47:43)
not just for the sex but also for emotionally developing the relationship between each other. And I just, I think there's a lot in that as well. There's so much in this space, the way in which this space has been constructed and the way that this sort of set has been created in a way in which it just lends so much to this idea of openness and openness in the relationship and honesty and yeah, it's the perfect setting for all this to be happening.
So yeah, a really cool detail, I think.
Silvan (48:14)
Yeah, it's almost like the house is a representation of this openness in a way. And like you said, Shane's like, for the next two weeks, let's just be open and honest with each other. I love that. And in my head or in my delusional thinking, I was like, is this them declaring monogamy to each other because they haven't slept with anyone else in that time? Is this them?
Declan (48:18)
Yes.
Exactly, yeah, use the word review.
Yeah.
Silvan (48:42)
taking that next step that feels organic to their relationship.
Declan (48:47)
Yeah, it very much takes it away from situationship. it does. think it makes it something a lot more exclusive that they don't necessarily label. ⁓ I think at this point they are like both thinking in their heads, we're together now, like we're boyfriends. This is what we're doing. And Ilya admitting to Shane that like, you know, I've not sort of been sleeping with anyone, which for him is actually a big deal because Ilya, you know,
seems to want to sleep around a lot more than Shane does. in the book, Illya is a lot more promiscuous. So he is like, is actively sleeping with other people in between times when he's sleeping with Shane. It's only towards the end of the book, whenever he begins to pull back and like nobody is sort of doing it for him anymore except for Shane. And so then he sort of retreats back. But I like that it was mentioned here because
It just goes to show that Ilya has now entered a different sort of mindset in terms of their relationship and that he seems the value upsetting Shane more than he previously did, in which, you know, it's a sign of loyalty from Ilya and he doesn't give loyalty very easily. You can see that in fact that he has so few relationships. They're very limited and even with his own family, he hides so much of himself. So.
Affording that loyalty to somebody is a big thing for him.
Silvan (50:16)
Well, and it makes sense because he's been hurt so much in the past. And who does he trust apart from Svetlana, for example?
Declan (50:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. It's really Svetlana and ⁓ Shane. That's it. They're the only two people, which is incredibly sad But yeah, it It just revealed such a big moment for him and such a at such a moment, the character growth as well for him to fully open himself up to somebody in this way. And you can see that he is doing that because the rest of this series.
the rest of the episode. He is so forthcoming and he is so honest and he is so open with everything that he discusses with Shane. He is wearing his heart in a sleeve throughout the rest of our time here and ⁓ it's just beautiful. It's so sweet. It's such a big character moment and it just shows his growth.
Silvan (51:10)
Yeah. And have you noticed in this episode where the emotional intimacy sort of ramps up, we get less sexual intimacy. I'm not sure how I'm articulating that, this is almost like this. Yeah.
Declan (51:20)
Yes.
No, no, that's 100 % correct.
Yeah. There, there is a hundred percent a trade off now between intimate scenes along with emotionally intimate scenes. So it's much less focused on the physical anymore. Obviously you get elements of it because you eat at rivalry. Um, but it's much less the focus now. It's very much on the vulnerability and the emotional connection the two of them have. And these deep, like so deep conversations they're having with each other. Um,
they're out by the fire, when they're sort of sitting on top of each other on the sofa and all these just very intimate settings where it's very easy for them to be open with one another and very little sex. There's the phone call scene which is hilarious and really good.
Silvan (52:12)
Oh my
God, before we get to the phone call, can we go back? I know we said, oh, we're not gonna talk about sex, but, did you notice the parallels between that very first episode when Shane comes to, I think it's Ilya's hotel room and he almost immediately pretty much drops to his knees and gives Ilya a blowjob. How this is mirrored in,
Declan (52:15)
Yeah. ⁓
Hahaha
Yeah.
Silvan (52:39)
in the cottage again, where they're in the bedroom and they have this really funny role play about sort of Shane being the bellboy and Ilya's like, know how the staff like to be treated after eight years kind of thing. But again, Shane drops and I think they were going to like close the blinds or something like that. And Ilya stops and he wants them open, I think. And the contrast between the really dark sort of very first episode where they hook up, because it is a hookup at that point.
Declan (52:48)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (53:07)
to now when they're engaging in sex, but it's bright, it's open, it's out there, there's nothing to be hidden. There's no shame in it anymore.
Declan (53:15)
Yeah, it's happening during the day. Yeah,
it's, it's deliberately done that way. It's not a surprise that their first sort of intimate moment is happening in the broad daylight with all this sort of exposure happening and the two of them just sort of enjoying it regardless. And it's such a nice moment. And I think it's sort of pinpointed by the fact that Ilya stops him from closing the blinds. He's like, no, don't do that. We don't need to do that. Not here.
And it's setting up that theme of openness so it is in a way that's subtle but really effective.
Silvan (53:57)
Yeah, and Charla Hunter, I think that's her name, does such an amazing job. She's the intimacy coordinator. And she does such a good job at, sorry? Right? And she's an actor herself. So I think, yeah, so I went on a deep dive on all these people on IMDb. And she's been in a couple of things herself, but she's also an intimacy coordinator. And I think...
Declan (54:03)
All right.
It's a day,
She needs a pay raise.
Silvan (54:24)
the positions, and I saw an interview of hers on YouTube or something like that, and she talks about how it's very choreographed. Nothing is mistakenly put somewhere. Everything is very deliberate so that you don't see something or hide something or it allows you to see something else, for example. And I noticed that either her or Jacob like this recovery type position.
Because you see it with Kip and Scott and then you see it again with Shane and Ilya. The leg... Yeah, I don't know how to call that.
Declan (54:55)
like the leg sort of cleverly placed to cover everything
up. Yeah, yeah. It's, it is very well choreographed. Like all of the intimate scenes in the show are so well done. They're just, they're sexy, they're intimate, they're communicating little details that Mike will miss and they give so much purpose and meaning to the scenes they're put in. Whereas so many shows.
don't. It's just sort of there to be like, there's a bit of sex here and I enjoy this. But it doesn't always serve that purpose of characterizing people either. And yeah, there she's very good at her job. She is very random thing to be very good at. But there you go.
Silvan (55:41)
But there's a way.
I mean, if they need some of the season two, I'll volunteer as a tribute.
Declan (55:48)
⁓
You'll take one of those. Yeah, yeah. Take one for the team.
Silvan (55:52)
You
know, it'll be a really hard job, but there's a way that this is also shot. It's shot really beautifully. It's shot almost in a very romantic way. You know, the way that we follow the lines of these bodies, the curves of the bodies, it's not lewd. It's not aggressive now. It's tender and it's softer.
Declan (56:07)
care.
Yeah,
100%. It's the aggression is sort of gone. Now it's sort of like enjoying the sort of pleasure of being with someone that you love. That's what's being communicated for you. All of this cinematography and all of this direction. And it just really works. And you can tell that it's different as well. Like everything just seems softer. The lighting is sort of softer. There's just a sort of coordination and
I don't know. There's a rhythm or something to it that just works. just it communicates a completely different vibe and a different tone to the sort of scenes that they've been having before, especially when both of them are either like struggling emotionally with something and then they're sort of having sorry, they're sort of having sex to sort of cover for it or to communicate it in a way that isn't always, you constructive. ⁓ But now it's different.
Silvan (56:46)
There's a rhythm. There's a rhythm there.
Declan (57:13)
for the love of it, it's for the pleasure of your partner. It's, yeah, it's very beautiful.
Silvan (57:20)
Ilya again is the consent king. He always checks in with Shane in the scene.
Declan (57:25)
Yeah, that's good characterization for him. It's true. It's true to his character. That's the way he is. He's a very caring, loving person. And now we're going to get to see it finally.
Silvan (57:36)
right? And you're right, his defences are down. You can see it. He's so much funnier. And especially when we see this barbecue scene. my God, the whole, why are you making eight burgers? And Shane is like, well, the recipe was for eight. And he's like, you cut it in half. What, you can't do math?
Declan (57:56)
It's that sort of, it's just couple banter. So it is 110%. That's why it comes across now. It's just like, these two are just giving each other a stick and like, neither of them are like taking it personally. And if I got there, it's like, oh, whatever, you know, that's just the way you are or whatever you think. And it's just so funny. So it is, it's, it's just such a great, a great little representation of the fact that their dynamic has changed a little bit where they're being a lot more open. They're joking with each other. There's a likeness to their relationship.
and that's that's changed from what it was before it used to be so heavy they used to constantly talk about like difficult things were and how this isn't working and you're upsetting me and ⁓ but now it's we're getting to see the fun couple side of them
Silvan (58:39)
this is what you saying earlier about when you spend a prolonged period of time with someone now, you really get to know them. for me, Ilya has always been very observant of Shane. He knows when to approach Shane, how to approach Shane. He's studied Shane, I think is what I'm trying to say. And here we see him again learning more about Shane.
Declan (59:00)
Yeah.
Silvan (59:07)
Shane is very literal, he will if the recipe calls for eight burgers, he's making eight burgers.
Declan (59:13)
Yeah, I like those little details it's it's very it's very endearing that Ilya is sort of able to spot these little character traits of Shane and Have you noticed Ilya never ever ever asked Shane whether he's neurodivergent or not? Because it doesn't matter to him because that's just what makes Shane Shane and he doesn't really care. It's it's
part of the elements that make him who he is and he's very, he's just in love with all of it. And I really think that's such a sweet detail. And I really, I really love that part of it. Yeah. No, he doesn't know. He's happy to have this really particular neurotic guy that will constantly tell him to take his shoes off at the door and.
Silvan (59:54)
he doesn't want him to change either.
Declan (1:00:06)
We'll take things literally and make eight burgers instead of four because he is afraid they adjust the recipe Yeah, it's just very sweet. It's very cute and it just it helps you buy their dynamics so much more
Silvan (1:00:20)
And it does, but I think as ⁓ a shame person myself, because I am neurotic, I do all the shoes and all the folding of the clothes, definitely, and I do certain things like that. For me, and this is bit of self-disclosure, I always felt like I was too much. I always felt like my eccentricities would be too much for someone else to handle. And it wasn't until I was in a relationship, not a great relationship, but a relationship.
where the other person noticed them and it wasn't a criticism, but he would be like, I did this because I know this is how you like it done. And I was like, huh, okay, this is what it feels like to be seen.
Declan (1:00:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Like my boyfriend would be very similar personality type. You could say like he likes things done in a very particular way. I will always try to accommodate that because I know how he likes to have things done. And in reality, I mean, it cost me nothing and I don't really care how it's ⁓ So I'm happy to sort of, you know, go by what he wants. And if that makes him happy or makes his life feel easier, then I can do that.
The problem comes whenever I think it should be done in a certain way and he's dead set on it being a certain way and then that's whenever you start having issues because I can be a little particular as well at times but yeah it's just part of being a couple so it is. But it's so it is nice to be seen like that and to have those elements of yourself which could be perceived as flaws be seen as just an element of who you are. ⁓ You know nobody's perfect this is the thing and
I know anyone who goes out looking for a completely perfect partner and finds much success. In fact, you'll probably find very little success. It's being able to love the elements of somebody that others might struggle with. you're doing that with somebody where their little eccentricities are actually endearing and you like them or you can fully accept them for what they are and they don't annoy you or do anything like major and upset you, then you know.
That's when you know like you're onto something like you might really like this person. So maybe worth giving it a try at that point.
Silvan (1:02:43)
Yeah, I agree. And I was listening to Ren Browne's podcast, and she was talking about a very similar thing about how Ilya really embraces Shane's sort of dynamics and he embraces them and he loves them and he doesn't change them. And I think you really see this unfold, but he has to still do it as Ilya. He's not going to be a Rose and hold his hand and say, honey, that's okay. He's going to be like, why? You can't do math? That's just him.
Declan (1:03:10)
He still needs to call out Shane when he's being ridiculous. Because I think his parents are bit soft with Shane and I think also lot of his traits he gets from them. So he needs the elia to come in, the chaotic part, the chaotic good to come in and be like, on a minute, you don't need to do it that way or why are you doing it like that? That's so stupid. Why don't you just do it this way? And it's really that.
Silvan (1:03:14)
Somebody needs to.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Declan (1:03:38)
Having someone who helps you make up for the weaker parts of yourself or the sort of parts of yourself that could do a little bit of work and having that support and that voice to be able to sort of help you develop that. I think that's a really nice thing as well. And it's really good for personal growth. So to have someone help you work your way through maybe things that you wish you could, you're not 100 % happy with in yourself. So yeah, I think.
Silvan (1:03:57)
Yeah.
Declan (1:04:05)
There's a lot of layers to this, so there is a lot of layers to sort of Ilya's real love and sort of fascination with Shane and his behavior. I really enjoy it.
Silvan (1:04:17)
Yeah. And I wanted to ask you what your take on the conversation between Ilya and Shane when Ilya was asking Shane about sort of, they know about you? And Shane is like, no. And he was like, you know, would they not be good with it? And here I want to get your take on that little sort of exchange was.
Declan (1:04:40)
Yeah, I think it comes from the fact that Shane is an over thinker. ⁓ I think that that has a big thing to do with why he hasn't come out to his parents. Shane always assumes the worst case scenario and everything. It's, actually why this relationship has taken so long to come to fruition. ⁓ it's because he has over thought every single step of it and why you can protect yourself in doing that. It also means that you are not taking risks when you reasonably can't. I mean,
me and you can look at a roller coaster and go well the risk of getting on here is like so easy and it's great and like none's gonna happen like the chances of someone going wrong you you're more likely to die in a car accident on way home like me and you will get on that roller coaster whereas somebody coming behind us might go ⁓ no like that's you know i've weighed up the risks here if i don't get on then nothing will happen but if you don't get on the ride you don't have the fun the experience and the adrenaline of being on it and that's very much a thing with shane is he is so afraid to take these risks
that he can't benefit from the good, the excitement, the positives, like the love he could get from Ilya, the feeling of belonging and love and acceptance. ⁓ And the same thing for his parents as well. He cannot benefit from their love and acceptance and their support because he is too afraid to take what is quite a measured risk, quite a measured risk in the sense that he knows his parents, he knows that
Generally they're quite progressive and that they would be very good with him. But the doubt is there and he, just can't take that step, that risk. And now he's in a situation where he's kind of having to justify the Ilya that I don't know. just, I just can't do it because I'm not a hundred. I'm not 110 % sure how they will react. And because I can't control their reaction, I'd rather just not have a reaction at all. And what happens is the option.
Silvan (1:06:34)
Yeah.
Declan (1:06:38)
taken out of his hands as so much things do you in life whenever you don't control the wheel, someone's going to do it for you and that's what's happened here.
Silvan (1:06:49)
I really like your take on that. I was, I've been wanting to ask you this, like as soon as we knew we were going to record, because in a way for me, what I took from that was, Ilya, he's pushing, right? He's probing. He wants to see, is there a window where Shane would come out to his parents, at least just to his parents, you know? And we see this foreshadowing of what's about to happen, but, you know, Ilya starts to talk about sort of like,
Declan (1:07:01)
and definitely probing for strength.
Silvan (1:07:16)
I think you can tell your parents you're gay without giving them a list of guys you're fucking kind of thing. And Shane dismisses it. He's like, doesn't matter. And I think for me, what I read here was, Shane, I'm sorry, Ilya was, well, he was disappointed. And you even see that Ilya pulls his hand away from Shane's leg at that point. He retreats in the same way that Shane retreats in tuna melt scene or tuna melt episode. Can't remember what number it is, but we've gone past that.
Declan (1:07:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (1:07:45)
But anyway, know, Shane very much shuts down this conversation. think, you know, by shutting it down, yes, they're being honest, which is what they wanted to be, but they're being honest and still hurting each other in ways that they don't expect them to be doing.
Declan (1:08:03)
Yeah, yeah, unfortunately, whenever you are honest, sometimes you can't control how the other person is going to react. And it's not surprising that Ilya is pulling away because think of what that really means for him in the long run. Like if Shane can't come out to his parents, how the hell is Shane going to come out to everybody else so we can live our lives? what, like how is that going to work? Is it now that they have the sofa scene following that?
Silvan (1:08:33)
So they have the loon scene, which you talked a little bit about before. And what I really like is they intersperse these very heavy, dramatic moments and they lighten it up. That Canadian fucking wolfbird thing was just the levity that we needed in a way.
Declan (1:08:35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but
it's nice that they're not just good. They're not running off. They're having bad moments. They're having disagreements. They're having little conversations in the back of their minds of like what they're figuring out about each other. And this is all they're all learning. They're both learning from each other in this episode. And the fact that Ilya learned that Shane will really struggle to come out to the wider world, that's basically the lesson that Ilya's learned.
Shane is really, really going to struggle to come out. This is going to be a huge problem for him. It allows him time to mentally prepare himself. It's just an aspect of their relationship that's been revealed to him that he knows is going to be a challenge later on. I can see why that would be disappointing for Ilya because he is quite open. Now that Ilya is wrote off Russia, I don't think he has any problem at all coming out. I really don't.
I think he would do it now. So he would, if he had Shane forever and he knew he had Shane, regardless of what happens, if he comes out, he would, he would a hundred percent come out. I do believe that. And he would do it no matter, he would do it as popular as you want. But he knows that for Shane, this is, this is a big problem for him. Like this is major. He has life would be rewritten as a result of this happening for him. And I think Ilya's
Priorities have now switched from hockey to Sheen.
Silvan (1:10:22)
I think you're right. And I think for Ilya, for me, it feels like Ilya's been in, he's ready. He's ready to take the step, but he's been ready to take that step for a long time. He's almost just waiting for Shane to either catch up or for Shane to be in a place where he felt like he could come out. Cause for me, he's been patient with Shane. He's waiting, he's probing. He's, you know, he talks about
Declan (1:10:42)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:10:49)
and we'll get into it a bit later, maybe in the next episode about the passport and all that kind of stuff. But Elias probing and he's pushing, but it's not without justification, I feel, because, my God, it's been eight years. Like, how many more years do we have to wait? Or does Ilya have to wait before they can move on to that next step or pass that next threshold?
Declan (1:11:10)
Yeah, yeah.
Like, what is their relationship going to look like in this? And I think, you know, I think it's why they have the later conversation in on the sofa where Ilya is talking about, ⁓ well, if I want to stay in the States, then, you know, I'm going to find someone to marry. Svetlana would be willing to do it, you know, like we wouldn't be together, but, know, like Ilya and himself is planning a way to sort of make this work around Shane's needs. Like, because
He's basically saying that, you know, well, I can't really rely on marrying you. So I'm going to marry Svetlana because we can sort of do avoid it being personal. And she's willing to support me because she loves me and yada yada and then change reaction. but before we get onto that fire, yeah.
Silvan (1:11:57)
I mean, but that almost mirrors that, even
before we get to the fire pit scene, I mean, you're talking about sort of Elio really pushing and we see that in that little exchange they have when they're playing football in the garden. And he brings it up then, that's when we first hear about the passport. And he's like, I would consider playing in Canada, for example, not for the metros, God forbid.
Declan (1:12:13)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:12:27)
But know, Ilja's pushing here and he's doing what Shane has asked. He's being honest. He's letting his guard down, really. And I think for me, you know, the culmination of being this honest comes in this fire pit scene where they're sitting together and there's no other distractions. There's obviously no one else, but it's just them together.
Declan (1:12:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm Yeah. And then we have that moment of Ilja opening up about his mother, provides so much context to why he is the way he is. It completely explains his lack of intimate relationships is very closed off demeanor, the difficult relationship he has with his
Silvan (1:12:58)
and
Declan (1:13:25)
father and his brother ⁓ the resentment he sort of has towards his father because clearly there is some blame there. So there is for that happening to her and for her feeling the need to do that. My father wasn't always easy on her. That's a big thing to say.
There is so much in that little interaction and what he opens up and it is the most vulnerable that we've ever seen him. I think this is the full opening of him now to Shane. He is now going to be as forthcoming with information as he possibly can be. He's really got nothing more to hide. This is his biggest secret. You can sort of see in the way that he's still getting quite emotional and choked up about it. ⁓
that he's not okay with this yet. the situation with his mother, like, that is unresolved, 100%. I mean, I can see that as, you know, a trainee counselor, like, that is unresolved, 100%. If I was in a counseling room with him, I would be like, okay, like, would you like to talk about this more? Because you seem to have quite a lot of heavy emotions still with that.
You the fact that this happened when he was 12 years old and he's now in his late 20s and it's so raw for him. Like that to me is like, oh wow, okay. This is still really, really hurting. This is very present for you at the moment.
Silvan (1:14:58)
Yeah.
I add to that? Because like I said, member of the Dead Parent Club here and through the discourse from the comments that we've been receiving, you know, from all our social media sort of outlets and TikTok and YouTube especially, people have been sharing their own sort of stories and it's been so, so beautiful to read about. There was one person who talked about sort of the death of their parent and they talked about them being a complete different person. So,
Declan (1:15:12)
Amen.
Silvan (1:15:41)
before the death of their parent and after the death of their parent. And that to me was just like, that makes sense. That's how I feel. I feel like it was like before and after. And there's this very distinct line where that shift happens. And you talked about sort of these unresolved issues for Ilya. And in a way, as you were saying those, I'm identifying with Ilya. And I'm in a way, I'm just like,
Declan (1:15:55)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:16:09)
I don't think they're going to get resolved, but I also don't expect them to get resolved in the very neat psychological way that we'd like some therapy work to do. It isn't, and I think, again, a bit of self-disclosure.
Declan (1:16:19)
Yeah, exactly. It's not as clean cost as that,
Silvan (1:16:29)
When you grieve a parent, and this might not be for the same for everyone, who knows, I don't know, but for me, I didn't stop identifying as a griever. I am going to be grieving my parent my entire life. And somebody challenged me on that once, and it was a therapist. And I remember exactly when, not challenged in a horrible way, but I stopped working with them. I couldn't see that therapist anymore.
Declan (1:16:45)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:16:59)
because for me, don't take that away from me. I am grieving my parent and I will grieve my parent till the day I die because that's just my process. And that's not the right way, the wrong way. It's not prescribed to anyone else. But that was just coming to me as you were speaking. And in a way I was like, I hope Iliad doesn't resolve it because that's part of what makes him him.
Declan (1:17:03)
So, like, good luck.
Silvan (1:17:28)
part of what he is able to communicate to Shane in that way. And even if we look at this, know, Ilya his head is on Shane's lap. So then they have not got direct eye contact. So they're both looking at the fire, but Ilya is on Shane's lap. And I remember reading someone's comment on another video about, I wonder if that's how Ilya was comforted by his mum, if he laid down on his mum's lap. And that hit me.
Declan (1:17:43)
Yeah.
Yeah, and
it's a type of intimacy that is almost universal. So it is like having that sort of position, head and the lap and having someone stroke your hair and soothe you. you, a parent could do that for you very easily, very easily. So that's a really, really nice detail. So it is. yeah, I think I know that ⁓
Silvan (1:18:12)
very comforting.
right?
Declan (1:18:24)
this is going to come up again in their story. So it is Ilya's mother. Because how could it not? It's one of the most defining moments of Ilya's life. And up until this point, he has had basically no one to talk to about it. No one. And I think as well because as mother committed suicide, there are so many complex emotions that come with that. So, so many.
Silvan (1:18:35)
Thank
Declan (1:18:51)
And so not only is he dealing with the grief of losing her, but he's also dealing with the grief of being left behind.
and being abandoned.
Silvan (1:19:00)
You're
reading. You're literally reading my mind.
Declan (1:19:04)
Like that feeling alone really explains his reluctance to form emotional attachments with people. It is not a coincidence that the only person that he is emotionally attached to is a girl that he knew before his mother's death because he already was attached. So he was. That is, I think the only reason why Svetlana had a chance is because she already knew him. So.
Silvan (1:19:31)
And she gets it because she saw him through that whole period.
Declan (1:19:33)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, exactly. She shared in that grief with him and she understands what it took out of him. So he does. And that just it just gives so much more weight to exactly what he's talking to Shane about. Like he is telling him things that he probably hasn't told anyone since he was 12 years old, which. Where does that leave him in the scheme of their life?
What stage of his life is he psychologically in?
Silvan (1:20:07)
Exactly. And when we think about the psychological ramifications of that, you already talked a little bit about the impact that losing a parent has on a child, because he was 12, he's very much a child. Losing his mother, it represents this huge loss. And you talked about that unresolved grief and it's very much there, in a way, and I like that they don't shy away from the language. I'm assuming it was Jacob Tiani who wrote this.
but they say that his mom died from suicide or by suicide. And I'm thinking, okay, what does that serve? One, it doesn't skirt away around the language and like, she did something or she wasn't happy. They say suicide and I think it's important for them to say the word suicide because there are so many people who are going to identify that and so many people who have either lived through it or know someone who has committed suicide. But for me, what it serves is that
Declan (1:21:03)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:21:08)
And I think there's something that he says, and I want to be able to make sure I get this right. And he goes, I don't want you to think she was weak. She wasn't. She was so funny and beautiful. She was so sad.
my dad was so hard on her. And for me, what that serves is they're equating the sad, but it doesn't mean that she was weak. And I think when people think about suicide, they very much marry those two things together. And I think here, Jacob Tierney is really communicating that suicide isn't something that needs to be seen as something cowardly in a way. And for me, you know, it's really heartbreaking.
And give me a second, I'm going to get through this, but for me in a way, as a child who discovers a parent who's dead, that in itself, that image will haunt him the rest of his life. That's never going to go away. But also what that communicates in a way for me is his mom was really sad and she couldn't keep going. She was really sad for herself.
She couldn't keep going for herself, but also she couldn't keep going for Ilya either or her kids, I should say. And that as a child, it's really hard to internalize and interpret because as a child, you feel like it's your fault. It's your responsibility. I did something. I didn't make her laugh enough. didn't make her, you know, I didn't make her happy enough, but also for me.
Declan (1:22:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
behave better than maybe
she wouldn't be so unhappy.
Silvan (1:22:50)
Exactly. And for me, what this internalizes as a child is I wasn't enough for her to keep going. And that part breaks me because I imagine that anyone who's lost a parent by suicide, I don't even know what that does to you.
Declan (1:23:10)
Yeah, 100 % and I don't think it's a coincidence that the first thing he says is I don't want you to think that she was weak because
If it was her own weakness, he would have to blame her and he wouldn't have to blame himself anymore. Which I think he does. I think that's why he spends time with his father still. I think that's why he chooses to look after the family despite the fact that they're so ungrateful and they don't care. I think he believes himself for that happening. And he will not have anyone claim that it was her fault. It was her weakness that caused it to happen. Yeah, what a...
complicated bit of writing that is, especially because it translates to his character perfectly. It just does. It just makes sense. It makes perfect sense. is Rachel Reed. ⁓ I think because of the type of books that these are, sometimes people really underappreciate the complexity of the character work that goes into some of them. And that's actually what I love so much about and romance books. That's why I love to recommend them because when I find stories where
I have an author who's operating in a medium which is supposed to be really sexy and fun and it's just supposed to be fluff. Writing really beautiful character journeys and fantastic and really engaging plots and doing it in the fun of an MM romance with that extra little bit of something. They're just so good to read. They're just so fun to read.
It makes me appreciate the fact that they took the time and the care to develop real three dimensional characters all the more worthwhile. It's just that's that's my enjoyment. That's why I love it so much. Ilya is a perfect example of a character like that.
Silvan (1:25:08)
Yeah, sorry, I'm still caught up in that. It's hard to shake. It's really hard to shake because when I was watching that the first time it hit me and then when I kept watching it, was, do you know what it was like? It was like reading A Little Life. And I know you don't like it. I know we've established that. But this is not a spoiler for A Little Life, but there's lots of different events that happen in Jude's life that are traumatizing.
Declan (1:25:13)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:25:36)
And rewatching the scene felt like that. It felt like I was uncovering another layer and each layer that I uncovered hit me harder. And I was, and not in a horrible way, but in a, oh my God, these characters are so complex and they are so laid and they have taken the time with it because they could have easily made him a stereotype and a trope and really brushed over this, but they didn't and they saw the value in.
Declan (1:25:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, 100 % and art imitates life. mean, the greatest privilege as someone who writes is that people see themselves in your characters. They see the experiences that they're going through and can relate to them in a way that brings them some form of closure or feeling of being seen or, you know,
just feeling like someone has observed them in a way that perfectly communicates the way that they felt in a moment in time. And that's sort of the beauty of storytelling in general. And it's nice to see it in Ilya in this way and that there are people that related so strongly to that experience and seeing it communicated in this character and showing that his struggle with it isn't done, it's not. And he still feels the pain as strongly as he did.
probably whenever he was a child. And yeah, it's a very beautiful bit of storytelling. I love that. I love the fire pit scene. I do think it's a wonderful bit of so it is.
Silvan (1:27:21)
And again, please correct me if I've got this mistaken, but I think that's the last thing they ever shot in the whole thing. I want to say that, but I could be wrong, but what a poignant way to finish off this series by filming that and filming the most gut-wrenching scene ever.
Declan (1:27:27)
Hello?
Yeah,
if that was the case, I think that is very appropriate because this is the penultimate expression of Ilya opening up. This is everything that it's been built up to so far. So yeah, I think it's also nice that they did it then because obviously the actors themselves will have developed a relationship at this point, a friendship and a closeness and
Silvan (1:28:07)
Yeah.
Declan (1:28:08)
Being able to then communicate that through the medium of these characters then in a way that makes it come across as, they're opening up for the first time about this big emotional moment. Yeah, very, it would be a very, very clever, but a directing if that was the case and a very clever choice. So yeah, yeah, the whole thing is just very, very well thought out and had a lot of care and effort put into it. And I can really appreciate that.
Silvan (1:28:26)
in.
Yeah. And I don't know how you feel, but this feels like a really good time for us to maybe stop and take a pause because I feel like we've covered so much, but there is so much more to cover. I almost I want to take a breath before we get into the second part of the episode.
Declan (1:28:54)
So Ilya has had his big emotional opening moment, which is a nice conclusion to this part one, but now we need Shane's big emotional opening moment. And there'll be just as much to talk about, can imagine, in that part.
Silvan (1:29:09)
Definitely. So we're going to stop here. Please follow on for part two of this. And we're going to try and get this done in one more setting. I promise. I make false promises here, but that's my intention.
Declan (1:29:22)
I think I think we should be able to squeeze it in. It might just be a little long.
Silvan (1:29:28)
Definitely.
Declan (1:29:28)
So thank you so much for watching this episode. This was part one of episode six. There's going to be a part two. So we're working on that at the moment. But if you enjoyed this episode, then please like it, share, leave a comment as well. Also, we talked about some really intense stuff in this episode. Is there anything that really resonated with you that you wanted to open up about or share with us? Then please let us know. Don't be afraid to leave a comment. And yeah, we'll see you for the next episode.