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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:15)
Hello, welcome back to Yes and Otherwise. Super excited to be talking to Fanshin Cox today. I could read your whole bio, but I won't because I know people don't love that. But I was just reading that your name means to enter a new world. And I love that. I don't know if your parents were des putting, you know, destiny onto you to be a storyteller. Yeah. Amazing. So we'll
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (00:35)
Very much. Very very much, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:38)
get into your bio and stuff soon, talk a little more about your background, but thank you for being here.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (00:42)
Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. I love all the work that you do, Becky. I was like, ooh, some badass folks bring sign me up and keep me in the community.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:54)
Love it. And
we're obviously Faith is also here. So hello, Faith. Just a situation
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (00:58)
Hi Faith,
yes.
Faith Clarke (00:59)
Just
thinking we're here for a good conversation. So any
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (01:03)
Love it.
Faith Clarke (01:03)
like it's always interesting who's able to kind of just lean into like the tea. You know, the my friend calls it the like lap lap put the discirt in your lap and just lean in and we're having coffee and an omelet and we're just talking, you know. So just wrap it in and we're just like we're just leaning in. So
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (01:18)
Put the skirt in your lap. Yes. Fold it up and yes. I love
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:24)
Well,
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (01:24)
it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:24)
I'm excited because we don't get people who have IMDB pages that often on these conversations.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (01:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:29)
And so you have an IMDB page because you have done acting
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (01:31)
Do
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:32)
in Hollywood. You've also served in other ways in the movie industry and so excited to talk about that. To get us started though, for a little icebreaker, I was thinking about movies and I'm like, what can I ask? And a question that just came to my head was, What's a movie that made you feel really seen? That you were like, this movie, like, it's one of the I'm seeing myself here because
I know that I think that's a lot of what we'll kind of talk about. And I'll go first to give you two a moment to think about it because I've
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (01:56)
Love it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:57)
had a moment. good. Good. Okay. I took my
Faith Clarke (01:58)
I I have I have an answer so
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:01)
son to see Inside Out Two when it came out in the theaters a few years ago. He we loved the first one. We he loves almost all Pixar, and we've watched them all a million times. So we went
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (02:10)
That's
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:10)
to see Inside Out Two, and the new character they introduced, Anxiety, I had at one point I almost cried. I don't, I'm not a crier.
I almost cried at one point with this character when she's having her like big moment and there's this tornado sort of thing happening, and you can see her feeling like she's losing all sense of control and spiraling. And I had tears in my eyes, and I said to my husband or to my child, I said, That's that's what mom feels like a lot of time. That's that's how I feel. That's me. Like that, and it wa it was one of the first times I've ever seen such a beautiful depiction because also the way they handle it with such love and care, and the people around and understanding that this
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (02:46)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:47)
Part of her also serves an important part, but also needs these other pieces to keep it from spiraling.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (02:52)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:53)
And I just left there going, like, my gosh, I've never seen that part of my personality, that part of who I am. It's not even it's like this fabric of who I am to be represented so clearly. And for me to be able to then
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (03:03)
I love it
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:04)
especially have a conversation with my young child to help him see his mom and understand this part of his mom that I couldn't quite name for him. So it was really beautiful
and special to me. Okay.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (03:14)
It's beautiful. Faith? Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:15)
Faith, you immediately said you had one.
Faith Clarke (03:16)
Y you you want me to go? Okay.
since we're on a theme of animation, because the one that came up was I don't remember if it's Incredibles or if it's Incredibles 2. but it's interestingly, the the character isn't who identify with. I identify with the feeling of parenting that character. It's Jack Jack. I don't know if you've seen Incredibles or Incredibles 2, but Jack Jack is the toddler. He's the toddler with superpowers, and he doesn't have control of his superpowers yet.
And so his father is just, I don't identify with the father character because he's just out of his depth. But just this I this the wildness of people morphing into their imperfect, uncurated, superpower self that just looks like destruction. my lord. And then immediately the next thing shows up. And immediately and so he cloned himself, he showed up in different places, he became fire. And I was just inside my body, it's just like I
know that feeling and there was a a
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (04:11)
Ha ha ha.
Faith Clarke (04:12)
clip with a babysitter and she was just like she had the the x fire extinguisher shoot she was just sitting with all her kind of protective tools just like what's gonna happen next and fanshin just for context my kids are my oldest has autism and my other two are neurodivergent in their own ways and
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (04:29)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (04:30)
and yeah we homeschooled so the three of us three of them and me at home yeah that exactly that Jackley
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (04:35)
You kind of got to use it as
as homework or an assignment, right? Is to to go and and and have them seen, have the have them feels feel seen. And same for
Faith Clarke (04:47)
Mm, I
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (04:48)
you, Becky. Like I love I love these stories. Yeah. Yeah. When media works like that, it works really well. It's it's it's too infrequent. but
Faith Clarke (04:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:59)
Yes.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (05:00)
yeah, yeah.
I love I love both of those. I I don't have kids, so I don't see a lot of animated projects, but I hear about them and I and and I and I think it's actually one of the few places that the industry and studios in particular tend to get tend to get right. It's what what's weird is that then, you know, they'll they'll have like
leads of color or leads that that aren't colors, but they're you know they they kind of represent humanity or they way clearly kind of represent different communities, but they don't say it outright. And then something about when when we transfer over into representations of adults or even kind of people between high school and adults, it just gets more and more limited. The perspectives get more and more limited. So
I talk a lot about
Faith Clarke (05:50)
For sure.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (05:51)
that. That's really kind of the work that I
do in Hollywood. For
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:52)
Yeah. We're gonna talk a lot about that today.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (05:55)
sure. But but the but the certainly the the project that that made me feel most seen and even gave me hope in terms of being a storyteller in film and TV is do the right thing. it really, you know, it I I was fortunate to have grown up in a neighborhood, in a community.
That was like that, where you know had you had the the black men on the corner talking shit about everybody walking by, and you know, the the mother-sister who's always watching and and also the tension. And so, you know, that all of the the conflict that that comes with different communities trying to live together or not, right? Or or some being pushed out.
But to to this day that one really, really still speaks to me and I think it's so powerful.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:47)
We love Spike Lee and
the way he shows up. I don't know if either of you follow him on threads, but the way he shows up is social media and things and just
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (06:53)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:54)
like he will randomly pop up and just be funding something for somebody, buying something from a black artist. Like
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (06:59)
Nine minutes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:00)
some it's amazing. He's he's like a real one, right? I love that. Good example.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (07:03)
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:05)
Well, going back farther to when you were really young, as you said, like you weren't necessarily feeling that representation being presented
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (07:12)
Mm,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:13)
to you.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (07:14)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:14)
And yet your parents give you this name of like, you know, entering a new world and the and the imagination,
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (07:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:19)
the creativity. I'm curious, like at what early age, when did you first start to think about acting or being a part of like this machinery of Hollywood as a possibility?
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (07:29)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:30)
Or how did that even open up for you if you weren't feeling represented, if you weren't feeling seen in media?
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (07:36)
Yeah. it's so weird, you know, how you know you ask people like, what's your earliest memory? And and truly one of my earliest memories is the second grade. I was in a bilingual school. So very fortunate to have had a I was we we were in DC and we had this bilingual school program, Spanish and English. And and I got cast as the
Sugar Plum Fairy in our school's production of the Nutcracker. And we didn't do, you know, I learned later that the Nutcracker was a ballet, but this
Faith Clarke (08:10)
It's
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (08:10)
was like somebody wrote a script. You know, there was like
Faith Clarke (08:13)
Right.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (08:14)
a written script about the Nutcracker. And I still recall a moment of being on stage and feeling the power of moving a large group of
people that are in front of you. And I didn't know at the time, I didn't think about at the time the responsibility of that power. I think at that time I just thought, my goodness, like the all of these people are watching us and supporting us and care about this story that we're telling them. And so that that early seed got planted. I'll say too that my name, Fanshin
Yes, it means to enter new worlds, but literal it's a Chinese word. And a small village in China called Longbow Village took it on as their motto at the start of the Mao Revolution. And my parents were reading books about different countries because they didn't want to raise us in the United States. They got married when interracial marriage was still illegal in 16 states. My father's Jamaican, my mother's white American from
tiny rural town in Oregon. And so they read these different, you know, they were kind of really doing a lot of research. And Fanshin is this documentary of this small village. The word Fanshin me actually means to turn over or to turn the body over, but they took it on as their motto to turn over the power structures. But the fact that
Faith Clarke (09:39)
Well
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (09:40)
I was named after a documentary, after a story,
I think that also planted early seeds for me.
Faith Clarke (09:48)
So did you hear that story from them as a child?
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (09:50)
Yes, absolutely, all the time. I knew I knew as soon as I could start talking and, you know, really like exploring my name and and of course it having to explain my name, you know, as an as a 56 year old, it's a lot easier. But you know, in kindergarten it was is more challenging. And actually I have only recently re started to remember this too, which is my mom told me
you know, because in kindergarten I wasn't gonna say I'm named after a book call about the Chinese you know, the Mao Revolution and it mean but sh what she told me was it means to share. And so whenever anyone would ask, that was my answer. It means to share. And I think storytelling is sharing, right? And and and that there's a responsibility in that power of storytelling and that is to share and and to teach people to share. So yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (10:44)
I have
as a parent of a younger child, he's now in fifth grade, but who's trying very hard to be like very mindful of speaking about really important issues all the time. And as you said, because you said that your parents wanted to raise a competent, self-respecting, and socially conscious citizen. Definitely
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (11:02)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:03)
what I'm trying to do. I do sometimes wonder, and I'm very curious, as you having been that child and feeling that coming from your parents.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (11:10)
Ha ha ha.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:11)
Does that feel like a b does it did it ever feel like a burden? Did it ever feel like Okay. Tell me about that because
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (11:16)
Absolutely. And still
Faith Clarke (11:17)
Ha ha ha
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (11:19)
keep doing it, right? Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:21)
Okay,
'cause I do worry like how do we balance that a bit of like we want to do that for children and also I don't want to make it feel like the weight of the world on one individual, obviously. And w we talk about systemic issues with him all the time, but I w I'm curious about that burden element of that.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (11:36)
Both
and honestly, you know, they again, like they you know, they were very intentional. They they understood that their you know, their marriage meant something. There was that was symbolic, they chose a symbolic name for me and and and it and interesting we talked faith in the green room about my father my brother being named Winston and he's named after my father, but of course they're named after Winston Churchill. Well, my father right, like
And and my brother has always felt he wished he had had something that meant that did did not, you know, kind of uplift colonialism and you know all the the oppressive structures. and yet there were certainly periods in my life, I think for one thing, my mom once my parents divorced, my mom came out as a lesbian. And so we were raised in
different communities because she had to move around a lot for jobs. And in some of those communities, it was extremely dangerous to have black children that people didn't ru were confused about. And to have a mother living with her best friend who was her lover, right? Like and and so yeah, that there were times and there, you know, as an adult that I was not that I recognized I was not safe.
And so for me, I think it is it there's that line that that parents should always be thinking about in this work that you do, you know, in raising conscious kids, also how do you keep them safe? And it's tough because what you don't want to do is to to teach them to conform. You don't want them to, you know, to just, you know, to to swallow.
the who they are and to not be liberated, which is all of our ultimate goals, right? And at the same time, in in there are circumstances where it might be best for them not to talk about their lesbian mom and their and you know, and their you know, Black Panther parents, you know. it's
Faith Clarke (13:37)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (13:38)
it's a balance, isn't it?
Faith Clarke (13:40)
Yeah, I think I I talk to my work tends to be organizational. And you know, I'll say that power sharing, because when you said sharing, I heard power sharing. Power sharing looks different depending on who you are. And if you are the person with the power, then there's an element of protection and stuff and and and allowing yourself to be vulnerable with some of these disclosures, yeah, when you have power. And if you're
The black woman in the office that is always filling in the cracks and things and is the primary the first person who's worked in a corporate setting for her and her kids are, you know, yeah, she may not be able at willing. It's it may it's not right to require her to be the advocate and activist that like there's rent. And I'll say this quite,
you know, to
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (14:26)
Absolutely.
Faith Clarke (14:27)
executive teams like there there's rent to be paid and children need to eat food.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (14:31)
Absolutely.
Faith Clarke (14:31)
And protecting
her, you know, is just so essential. I think that some of us this with
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (14:36)
Absolutely.
Faith Clarke (14:37)
our kids, they're they're walking a really delicate line that they don't even have the developmental capacity to understand both our
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (14:45)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (14:46)
own desire to protect them. My kids at a certain point, because between autism and immigrant and black and then queer kids, and there are a lot of we're on the margins of everything. And at
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (14:57)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (14:57)
one point they just said.
I just want to I I don't want to save the world. I don't want to save the world. I don't want to
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (15:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (15:04)
protect my brother. I don't I I I just my my my son my son just
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (15:07)
wanna be a kid, right? Like I just wanna yeah.
Faith Clarke (15:09)
said and he was like 90 when he said it. He was just like, I I just wanna be, I just wanna be a slum. I just want to be like we're just you know and
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (15:15)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (15:17)
and proceeded to live that out in his twenties. But anyway, that's a different story. But I I do think
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (15:21)
Yeah, right, right.
Faith Clarke (15:22)
that there are there it there are ebbs and flows in this journey of kind of living into this, yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (15:25)
Absolutely. Abs
I th an example I frequently use, and again, like my, you know, I tend to think around adults and our choices, but something that I think about a lot is bl black women's choice in how we wear our hair. I fortunately was raised by parents who were like, your hair is beautiful, her hair is beautiful, her hair is beautiful.
Not and and with with an emphasis on natural for sure, right? Like the hair that comes out of your head is beautiful. You don't have to do anything with it. And at the same and then there because of internalized racism, I get a lot and got a lot growing up. You've got good hair. And so I have a bias and a judgment towards women who don't wear their hair natural. And at the same time.
They do they you should be able to wear the hair your the your hair in the way that makes you feel loved and comfortable and safe in the world. So if that's wearing a wig, if that's wearing extensions, if that's straightening your hair, that's what makes you feel loved and comfortable. My then I have that judgmental piece in my mind that's like, but girl, if you really understood the colonial, you know, and the and the enslaved and the like.
all the reasons why we do this to our hair. But at the same
Faith Clarke (16:50)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (16:50)
time, sister gotta be able to go to work and and be comfortable and
Faith Clarke (16:55)
Do what's needed, yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (16:57)
do what's needed. And and even she if if that's how she looks beautiful to herself in the mirror, then sh that's how she gets to be. And and I can't judge that, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:08)
We
had Doctor Igosa
Abismoan?
she wrote a book about this, about
Black women's hair and we had a conversation with her and it was really amazing. And I like
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (17:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:17)
that you're bringing just so so people know, go listen to that one because it was great. But
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (17:21)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:21)
and I like that you're bringing up that other side of that because I think for so many of us, when we do a lot of this work, right, of of trying to decolonize our own thinking, it the the pendulum can swing in the other direction, where then we become the ones who are
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (17:36)
That are oppressing and that are, you know,
you know, no, this is this is the only way to do this, right? Yep. Yeah, we don't wanna do that. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (17:38)
We can act the same thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. We can act the same thing. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:45)
Yeah, and it's easy
to fall into that trap. So you served in the Peace Corps, just on on
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (17:50)
Thanks.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:51)
this piece of the responsibility and the burden and the but also the desire to make change and create change, and then also who has to bear that responsibility, all of these things. You then went on to serve the Peace Corps. A lot of your work that when you did move into, you know, when you were moved into acting and then now you've also done writing and producing and all of the things, right? But you've also served as like the DEI what was the your title? Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (18:13)
D. E. I. A. manager
at the California Film Commission, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:16)
Thank you. Right. So
you've along this path, you've found all these touch points where you continue to do this advocacy work.
How has that shown up for you in this path?
Were there points along the way where you're like, I just wanna I just wanna sit on the beach or I just wanna do whatever? And how do you manage that in
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (18:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:32)
this also with the responsibility you're feeling?
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (18:34)
Yeah, it's so funny. Yeah, but you know, the one one of the stories I always share is that we we after my parents divorced, we moved around a little bit, my mom got full custody and we ended up in strong Maine, which was like population, I don't know, three hundred. And I always say the black population was one, which was my half and my brother's half, right? But even though I I
Faith Clarke (18:55)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (18:56)
it's a joke and I and I'm not down with the whole fractions of race, et cetera. But
you know, it really was extremely uncomfortable. And speaking of of being in a place that was not safe, right? but I told people I decided, and I think it lasted for all of three or four months or something, that I was gonna tell everybody my name was Joanne. I don't even know where I came up with that, but I knew it I was like, you know, in hindsight, I was like the whitest white woman, you know, like I was like just I can't I'm tired of explaining.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:25)
I'm sorry, I gotta
say I think Becky is the whitest white woman name, but go ahead.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (19:28)
Becky's your
Faith Clarke (19:29)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (19:29)
hook Becky and Karen are definitely right. But this is, you know. But it was,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:33)
Sadly, yes.
Faith Clarke (19:34)
Joanne's up there though.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (19:36)
yeah, Joanna's up there, right? And it and it just I was like, I like that name and I don't have to explain to anybody, and you know, I can just but it didn't fit me. And I did feel that too. And I think a gift that especially my mother gave us was
She did leave, she was very liberated. Like once our parents divorced, homegirl was like tripping on LSD and telling us that she became very, very liberated. And again, that wasn't always safe. And sometimes we needed more boundaries than we had. And at the same time, I did witness this incredible person who was both committed to.
justice and equity and like really committed to that work and demonstrating it in her in how she lived her life, which was like our ultimate goal is liberation. And she was really living a very a very liberated life. So I think you can do both I think you can live and be liberated and go hang out on the beach and still be conscious. You know what I mean? So
So even like we think about my choice to join the Peace Corps, absolutely there was a there was a call for me in terms of community and that my my father was Pan-African and and so I was and and that was because of his roots in Jamaica, where there was a l so much more, I think, resources around what it means to
to embrace your African roots, which I think in the US
Faith Clarke (21:08)
Right.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (21:08)
it's so much more complicated. But like Marcus Garvey, right? Like he that was, that was the exposure he had. And so he exposed us to that. And so when I chose to to apply for the Peace Corps, I knew part of it was like building community beyond the United States, building my understanding of of my African roots. And I also was like, I get to travel for free.
So it wasn't it wasn't totally altruistic. There was, you know
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:35)
You served at Cape
Verde, so you also got to be like on the ocean and yeah, like yeah. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (21:38)
on the on the beach, you know, like
it was a it's a gorgeous company country, you know. And I also wanted to, I had been a a Spanish major in college and I wanted to learn Portuguese, you know. So there there were aspects of it and I think that really helped that also were just serving things that I wanted, that I wanted to do and experience. but then in the in the film and TV industry
It it also came out of I I created a one woman show. So first of all, I had a lot of struggles trying to pursue a career in film and TV as an actor versus theater. Theater was my first love. Like I said, I was on stage in the second grade. And in my mind, I thought, acting is is all the same. And it's not.
Faith Clarke (22:23)
It's the same. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (22:26)
film and TV acting really puts the act
Into a position of kind of being a prop because you don't end up having any control over the performance that we ultimately see. I mean, you can prepare for it, you can do everything you can while you're being recorded, but ultimately it's the director, it's the editor. Other people make the decision in terms of what we s actually end up seeing on screen. In theater, it's the total opposite. You could
Do and say anything. You know, you might have memorized all your lines and your blocking, but when when you're doing it live, live performance, you can do and say anything you want. You have a lot more control. And it is more community oriented because you're really working together for weeks or months if you're lucky. Film and TV, you might have met your, you know, your husband, you know, your character husband the day before and suddenly you're supposed to know each other for years.
So I think when I moved out here to pursue film and TV and to really try to learn that craft, it was very frustrating because the casting directors have so much power in terms of what we see. And they are very limited in their perspectives. So they, you know, here I was thinking like, I'm gonna, my agent is gonna send me this.
For this role of a black woman. And I do acknowledge and understand that most people or a lot of people don't see that. And so they're sending me out for roles that I just wasn't comfortable saying the lines or, you know, kind of being per performing this this character that didn't fit me or my perspectives. And so
Faith Clarke (24:07)
Right.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (24:08)
I that bothered me. And it was my personal experience that propelled me to then
become an activist or advocate that then I started to be like, of course it's not just me. All these other folks are having the same experience. And if I were darker skinned, I wouldn't have even gotten the audition in the first place. Right. So like it's it does start all of this does start with the personal and personal experiences that I'm like, what that? This is not fair. And then it builds to, you know, wow, other people are not
are not getting to be liberated in in performance, you know, either. So
Faith Clarke (24:47)
I mean, and there's a lot of how system functions. Mm my daughter just got laid off from her job, and there's an element of that that has her saying, you know, what did I do? What what you know, what did I do? And and I'm, you know, telling her the 80% of it is likely organizational, nothing to do with you, very little to do with you. but just this this tension of living in space where
80% of it has nothing to do with you.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (25:14)
Yeah, that's right.
Faith Clarke (25:16)
And and what does that mean for us as we we try to live liberated lives? I again, another kid's story, pardon. But they were my lab. I learned I
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (25:27)
Course.
Faith Clarke (25:28)
I was in a theater class actually with I wasn't in the class,
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (25:31)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (25:31)
my kid was in the class, and but I had to go in. My daughter deals with a ton of anxiety and she had a just a panic attack.
But she had the panic attack because she was managing her anxiety in the class. And the teacher looked up at her and said, Why are you having an attitude? No, the managing of the eyes anxiety was very quiet. There was nothing, you she was just, she was, but why are you having an attitude? And you look mad. And
So and and and to just kind of have that other perspective be put on you when it was she was just like I'm just breathing and you know
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (26:09)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (26:10)
and it affected her for people don't understand that these things impact you for such a long time and
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (26:16)
For the rest of your lives. Yep. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (26:19)
so it was yeah so there's this this this duality of how do I live in my freedom.
Acknowledge I don't have to perform my face. I don't have to perform whatever kind smile face, right? With my brown skin.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (26:30)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (26:33)
But also I get these responses that then really, really hurt and follow me for such a long time. And and how
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (26:40)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (26:40)
to to then hold that hurt and still live in freedom feels like
such a that's the work.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (26:44)
Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm
still holding the heart for sure. Like that and and that propels a lot of it, you know. I think to the film commission, you know, I so the the a little background on on how I ended up there, which is that w in around twenty sixteen I started that's right. That's right, that's right,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:06)
Oscar so white 'cause that was right around that time of the Oscar so white asked guy. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (27:11)
and that's right. And
so I had this one woman show. So I went back to school, but you know, given how the industry was just on my last nerves, and I was like, this is some bullshit. I gotta figure out how I gotta learn how to write, I gotta learn how to produce. I have to have more control over what this, you know, how the world sees this. And so I went back to school, did an MFA, created a one woman show that examines the construction of race in the United States.
And this was, of course, all about me like kind of exploring my relationship with my parents, my relationship with race. My and and and so I use the racial categories on the US census as this kind of like chronological historical backdrop of the system that is informing me and my family, my relationship with wet with my white mother, my relationship with my Pan-African Jamaican father, my right, like my relationship with my brother.
from the lens of race. And so you know, so the the show kind of starts to take off because I'm finally in control over what, you know, how the world sees me. And so I write myself, you know, I I I revisit my time in Cape Verity and I, you know, I do this this show that's I'm performing at like colleges and universities and it's it's it's meaningful. It's having this impact. And it's called One Drop
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:32)
It's called one drop of love, right?
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (28:35)
of Love. Yes, yes.
And and of course based on the one drop rule. and so I I also I grew up with two celebrities, two A-listers who came to the show. One of them came to the show and they decided to c come on board as executive producers of the show. And and it's it's Matt Damon and Ben Affleck.
A few probably, I don't know, it was a few months into doing the show, having them involved in the show. they had this very unfortunate and and stomach-turning conversation with a black woman on television. Her name's Effie Brown, she's this amazing producer, and the show was called Project Greenlight. Basically, she went to defend being inclusive.
in in their choices and what they were doing. And Matt, they cut to Matt doing his talking head, and he says, You do diversity in front of the camera, not behind the camera. And I'm like, motherfucker, what? Like we you know, and we grew up in a very progressive city. We grew up doing theater together. I I love theater because we were able to work with every you know our
Our theater department understood the value of people having various experiences in their lives. And so it was really weird, but not because Hollywood has a way with making you f forget your context. And, you know. Anyway, we, you know, I I had some good conversations with with both h Matt and Ben after that. And that led to my working with them at
their production company called Pearl Street Films at the time. And I knew I was like, I was told to share. I have this moment of power and working with two people who are some of the most powerful people in the industry. How do we share? How do we share their resources and their leverage and their and so I co-authored something called the Inclusion Rider with two other women.
And it is essentially a clause that can be added to contracts when A-listers or people with leverage are negotiating their contract. It's a clause that says that that this company will or this project will commit to a process of inclusive hiring. And it took off. It was, you know, it it ended up Francis McDorman referred to it in our Oscar speech in 2018. And so it was this amazing opportunity to
to have people like that say, this work's important to us, we want you to do it.
But it by 2019 it became clear that it was lip service. Because the intention of the inclusion writer was that whoever had that leverage and was taking it into their negotiation would say, I will not work on this project unless you agree to this. And instead,
Faith Clarke (31:32)
Less. Right.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (31:35)
what was being said was, would you please do this?
And the studio would say, No, we won't. And then they'd say, Okay, well, we'll still do the project. And
Faith Clarke (31:44)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (31:44)
we knew that because when the projects came out, it was very clear. So it was frustrating. And what I, you know, as we learn and we experience, okay, I thought this was the thing, it's not the thing. So what's the problem? What was lacking here? And what was lacking was the reliance on individuals.
It was an individuals in power 'cause who's gonna give up their power? Especially not
Faith Clarke (32:09)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (32:09)
the ones that are used to having it forever.
Faith Clarke (32:12)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (32:12)
So that was frustrating, but I shifted my mindset and I started to do development. So in you know, you there's all these different roles to get a f a project made. And development is the role where you're like the earliest stages. People, you might find a New York Times article and decide to make a movie about that. And so you're the person that gets the article, finds the screenwriter, you know, s packages it with a director, like you help make it. And so
When I shifted my mind to that and and I knew the kinds of stories I was gonna tell, then the next three years or so I really got to spend like developing that kind of work. And then this opportunity came up at the California Film Commission because we had a bill that was that had been implemented by black women, Latinos, like powerful legislators here in California.
And the bill said that the tax incentive program, the projects that are in the tax incentive program, getting tax incentives for filming here in California, would have to adhere to a process that looks very similar to the inclusion writer. That's because I had shared it with some of the legislators and I was like, you should just use this. But it was even more robust. I mean, way more. It goes be way beyond the inclusion writer.
So they opened a a position to develop the policy for this to happen in the state. And I applied and I got the role. And for the first year and a half, I learned how to take a bill and write policy based on a bill and then implement that policy. And it was incredible. And it was back to those feelings, those early feelings we had with the inclusion writer. This is it. This is, you know, and this is systems change, right? This is not individuals.
Faith Clarke (33:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (34:00)
This is a law, but guess
Faith Clarke (34:02)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (34:02)
what?
Faith Clarke (34:03)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (34:04)
lip service again
Faith Clarke (34:05)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (34:06)
at the state level in politics and it was heartbreaking to
Faith Clarke (34:11)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (34:11)
have to realize that they didn't mean it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:14)
I
Faith Clarke (34:14)
I tend to say a lot. I don't you know and I I'm I I admit that I am I'm I don't know if I'm being helpful when I say this. but I tend to say a lot that the solution isn't in policy and on
paperwork because people say to me, hey, help us, you know, design our the DEI or our equity and justice, blah, blah, blah. And they're talking about a piece of paper. And I'm like, paper isn't gonna make any change. I mean I could definitely write a paper and do pay me for that. But I I I I tend to feel like the solution has to be something that's ethical and moral versus, you know, and and so I'm I'm curious about what like, okay, so what do we do?
What have you seen that doesn't put the weight solely on two people's shoulders and for people to fight to be, you know, and yet also kind of is sustainable?
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (35:08)
Yeah, we we we go back full circle, just like what happened with the inclusion writer, is that I go back to empowering the storytellers, the stories and the storytellers themselves. Because then we are no no longer in the position or we need to build to where we are not continually kind of perpetuating the problem by reminding the powerful entities how powerful they are.
'Cause they love that. Like I realize like DEIA work is just reminding them we have to beg you to do crumbs. And so therefore we are perpetuating this idea that you are empower you are the power that decides our leb our liberation and which stories get told. And so
Faith Clarke (35:53)
Yeah. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (35:55)
w what I did maintain throughout all of this was the Sister Brunch podcast. So
Sister Brunch shares the stories of black women and black gender expansive people thriving in film and TV. And so luckily that was the thing that kept me alive a lot of those days when, you know, which is we are empowering ourselves. We are telling our own stories. The industry says we don't even exist. The industry
Faith Clarke (36:18)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (36:19)
says we we're not qualified. The industry says, you know, we they can't, we have to do.
50 short films before they'll even consider us when they've got, you know, a mediocre white guy that's done nothing and they give him a TV series. So
Faith Clarke (36:33)
Thank you.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (36:34)
why am I spending my time begging these folks to give us a TV series, which ultimately then we don't it's it's not, you know, it's still not us, you know, really telling that story versus like how do we mobilize together?
How do
Faith Clarke (36:50)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (36:50)
we uplift each other? How do I tell everybody about these incredible people that are working and thriving and available but also doing their own thing? So between Sister Brunch and then my company, my production company, Trujillo, and Trujello stands for Truth, Justice, and Love. We uplift stories that speak truth and pursuit of justice and service of love.
How do we how I I need I have reminded myself, go back to that. No matter how broke I get, no matter how like at my everyday is liberated because it is now focusing, centering stories and storytellers. And yes, agreed, that's not on that's not the paper, that's not the policy, that's the hearts and minds, that's the morals, that's the values. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (37:40)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:41)
Well
Faith Clarke (37:41)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:42)
you're you you talked about Black Panther movement and some of your own experiences in childhood and and ex experiencing that, understanding that. And I it everything you're saying has me thinking about what I've been thinking about lately too. I just saw somebody talking about sort of the difference, and this is a very like boiled down, like basic understanding of the difference sort of between MLK and Malcolm X. And so please know that I'm
Speaking broad strokes here, but sort
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (38:08)
Course, of course.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:10)
of the difference between the how do we change the hearts and minds of those in power so they come around to our side, right? That sort of slow growth approach of if we do this incrementally, we'll begin to get that change versus
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (38:21)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:22)
a more of this approach of why are we asking our oppressors to change a system that they created a benefit from that
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (38:29)
Yes. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:30)
they why would they, right? Why are we asking versus just taking? And that doesn't have to mean through force, maybe it does.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (38:34)
Yep. Sometimes
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:37)
But also right. But also it means just saying we
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (38:37)
it right, but yes. By any means, right? But yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:40)
we're no longer here to ask you to see our humanity. We are here to assert our humanity, right? And so
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (38:45)
That's right. That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:46)
and I've been thinking a lot about this lately as well. So I love it. And I'm I'm in my own battle at the moment with my Well, I'm trying, but I'm
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (38:48)
Love it. You live this. I mean, Becky, this is you. This is the community you build. Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:56)
in my own personal life, I'm I'm kind of experiencing a a s a moment of this with my kids' school system and
And trying to wrestle in my own mind with like what does that look like then? And and so I just I wonder if you could speak a little bit to some of that what you mentioned, that Black Panther party, that spirit that I think got baked into you early. And
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (39:14)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:14)
it sounds like you then, like we I think all of us do, at some point we think, well, I gotta play the game, I gotta do the system, I gotta
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (39:21)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:21)
show up, I gotta beg for my scraps, whatever. And I feel like you're coming around now, you know, that you've come around.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (39:26)
Back. Yep,
yep.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:28)
back to this place. So just talk a little
bit about that experience of what what the Black Panther Party perspective was in your life and how that spirit is showing up for you now with Trujulo and and just the way you're showing up.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (39:39)
sure. I mean, you know, it's be because I'm named after basically named after the communist revolution, like it's no secret. Like it is it is community. You know, that's that's what was so powerful and important about the Black Panthers was, you know, and and what we eve even when we tell our story sometimes, like, you know, be because when you get you know, you get a a movie contract or you you you have enough mo money to make a
you know, a a feature film, you're gonna, you know, highlight the the conflict and the drama as you need to, right? Cause they, you know, cause films are expensive. but but in reality, the the the strength of the Black Panther Party was in their food programs, right? Like feeding children and and rooted in Oakland, like this, which is so community oriented, is so like this incredible
artistic, you know, like it was creative. It was it was we are going to do for ourselves. yeah, I was really lucky that so like what after my parents separated we were we were raised in communes like in in DC you know what in that version of it right but it was I didn't know who really my parent was I had six of them and
You know, I had brothers and sisters and siblings and and you know, we we we cooked together and had our responsibility of what we did in the household to to make sure the household kept running. And yeah, I was so lucky to have those those early seeds planted and that that's what the Black Panther Party was about. As well as by any means necessary and and and that's why folks got killed.
And I think that that's the ch big challenge is the fear, the the the justified fear because because they will kill us. Whether
Faith Clarke (41:33)
Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (41:33)
it's us doing community work like the Black Panthers or whether it's us doing like you know cap even capital work like Tulsa, right? Like the Black Wall Street. These motherfuckers gonna come after us no matter what however we thrive.
These motherfuckers coming after us every single time. And so you also have to kind of be prepared for that. Like it can't you w I want to be able to f purely focus on us and community. By us I mean those of us who want everyone to be liberated and tell stories about it and tell our liberated stories. but the threat is const it's it's back to like my parents too. It's like, but also there was a constant threat.
And I don't know how to balance that. I mean, I'm still learning. How do y'all do it with you with your kids balancing that? Keeping us safe and not killed and not, you know, sued. That's h this motherfucker's big thing is like, I'm just gonna sue you and I know I'm gonna lose, but I'm gonna make your life miserable too, right? Like and bankrupt you exactly.
Faith Clarke (42:36)
Can bankrupt you in the process.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (42:39)
Like the it truly that we you know, and in a capital society it does
Here's another thing that I would love to hear about from both of you too. What's really hard. So, you know, one one of the places my parents studied was Longbow Village in China, and another was the Ujama movement in Tanzania. So it was like, you know, communal living. And and ultimately both my parents ended up owning homes.
They w they were the first, you know, generation to own homes, but that meant their children then understood home ownership and what that meant for you. And when my parents passed away, they were able to leave us something and that allowed us to be homeowners. But home ownership is as capitalist as fuck. Like it's, you know, and so as much as they had these ideals.
W a and not to mention, Mao didn't turn out to be so great. You know, because anybody who gets power, also we see what happens when you get power. Whether you put slap the word communist on it or socialist or whatever, if s any w individual has too much power, they fuck it up.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:51)
It's that same
story with Ben and Matt, not to like call them up, but you can come
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (43:54)
It is exactly the same.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:56)
from the right place and have the right things and then you get into the system and it gets
Faith Clarke (44:00)
Well, the thing
is it's not get into the system. We are it is the water, it is the air. Like and I think
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:03)
Well, you're right. Right. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (44:04)
We are in it. We live it. We live it.
Faith Clarke (44:07)
there is a humility that we all have to have and part of, you know, my own stuff is just to notice when am I doing that? Like that's my
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (44:15)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (44:15)
What when when am I because so
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (44:17)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (44:18)
when am I using my power? What's a power? I don't know. Is it that is it my age? Is it that people believe me, my words, versus, you know, if you're neurodivergent in explicit ways that it that whatever my power is, when am I just kind of a byproduct of the system? Or when
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (44:34)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (44:35)
am I aware enough to be and I think I I say to people, if this doesn't work if you don't know how power moves between you and the other person beside you.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (44:44)
Amen.
Faith Clarke (44:44)
And
and that's just like a fundamental human skill for our community development. Cause yeah, I do think community is absolutely the way to go. And yeah, I need a house, you know, especially when I was in New York, I do need, you know, to be warm and things.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (44:57)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (44:58)
And
And we are all swimming in that water that causes the idea of communal living to be contentious. And somebody's gonna take something from somebody and it's gonna not, you know, and I'm gonna have to work super hard to make that happen. And so yeah, maybe I'll buy my own house while also trying to evangelize our own communal living, because it's the both and as we yeah, as we as
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (45:18)
Yes. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (45:19)
we try to shift, move the needle on these things.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:22)
I
love what you said about power too. It strikes something because just this weekend I had a black mother in the school call me about an incident that happened in the school because I've been showing up the school boards and talking about the issues inside of our schools that we're having around equity. And I've had conversations with her and she was able to call me and and vent one, but also she said, I'm calling you because I just f I feel like you have more power. And I laughed at that thinking.
I feel like I have no power because I know for a fact the school board and the superintendent, they've made it clear they don't like me, right? The powers that be
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (45:52)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:53)
don't like me because I've been showing up with my voice. And so in the moment I was like, Well, I don't have power, I'm just loud. And she's like, Well, yeah, you're loud and you have a good heart. And I was like, Well, that's nice. But upon reflection, I like, I do have more power. Like I have to see, like, and so like sitting
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (46:05)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:06)
with that of even though I feel like I have no power in this situation, I can understand where she's coming from.
Mike, right? My voice is heard. Whether it's heard well or not,
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (46:12)
Totally.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:13)
it's heard in a way that I know is hers isn't. So I just thanks for naming
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (46:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:18)
that, Faith. And that and I do think that's part of it. It is that like
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (46:20)
Truly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:21)
figuring out where you have that power. Because when you said how do you guys deal with this, I knew immediately in my heart, I was like, Well, my answer to that is is and should be very different than Faith's answer to that. And the same with my son, right? I'm raising a I'm raising a white man. So while I talk
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (46:32)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:35)
about the the burden and those feelings, I also balance that with knowing and
There's
a lot of responsibility there. We we have a different perspective inside of this. So yeah,
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (46:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:45)
it's it's I'm and I don't I feel like the big thing in all of it and what Faith would say and what Faith tells me all the time too, like there are no perfect answers inside an imperfect system.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (46:52)
No
perfect i i exactly. And we and therefore we also w we have to balance for ourselves both like I love Adrian Marie Brown's work, you know, the the kind of like we're not gonna cancel ourselves, right? Like that the whole you know, cause that that's a whole other thing is like even with Ben and Matt, I will say I have done my share of public shaming of those two. Like
And and a lot of times it's even just in sharing the story itself. But I it ha I don't know how far it's gonna get us to it to to shame, right? Or to cancel, like, cause we're gonna cancel everybody ultimately. Can't do that, you know, and and I think about I think about this a lot when I when I talk about, you know, or when when folks are talking about the ninety-two percent of us that voted for Kamala Harris.
And on one hand, you know, we embrace it like we're the ninety-two percent, you know, and but but then when that enters into the like so fuck everybody else, I'm like, but hold up, y'all, because if ninety-two percent of us voted for her and she still didn't win, we're kind of perpetu we're kind of reminding everybody of the lack of power that we have. Like ninety-two percent of us and still
Like in so and s and reminding ourselves like we can't do this by ourselves.
But yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:11)
Yeah. And the shaming
Faith Clarke (48:12)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:14)
on the other side of it, I see the shaming right now. There's a whole bunch of rhetoric around those people who didn't out of a a conscientious objection to what's happening in Gaza and you know Kamala's continued support of of genocide, like and and not being
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (48:27)
Yep. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:29)
able to and and I just think all of these things, there's so much nuance and complexity. And going back to what you said earlier, where it becomes really easy to get on the other side of of some of this unlearning and
ultimately be no better than in many ways
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (48:41)
Totally.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:42)
the oppressors when you're using that as like a reason to exclude, to diminish, to dismiss, right? Other folks. And so it's
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (48:48)
Yes. Yeah. And it's not gonna get
us anywhere. You know, but but it's hard. But listen, I mean, like I said, the motherfucker in
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:54)
It well Yes, it's fair.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (48:56)
chief, like I can't. I just can't. You know what I mean?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:59)
I hear you.
Faith Clarke (48:59)
Yeah, I mean I I do I
like I I I'm benevolent and egalitarian and balanced in most things. And then you have the one or two when I'm like, you what? Yeah, just yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (49:08)
Yeah,
yes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:09)
We just had a conversation
with Judy Who that I think is so relevant here too. So just mentioning it, calling out for people to listen to it, because I mean she was encouraging us in a way to find empathy for this Cornell, the Cornell 57. And I listen exactly.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (49:21)
Ooh. Ooh. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:24)
And it's this place of how how do I find that? And also there is this part of me that I try to find where it is this if I were them, I would be them. Meaning if I had had their exact same life experiences, if I had been.
conditioned and raised in the same exact way, I would be them. Right. And so can I find that place in myself, not to excuse, not to remove accountability, but to not get to that place of I am now elevating myself as better than you and creating a new hierarchy. That that is
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (49:52)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:52)
also not what we want. And that's I'm with you. It ain't easy. And I can't bring myself to do it for Mr. Cheeto, but I do aspire to that.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (49:59)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (50:00)
I mean, I will say that there's something in the system itself that defends and protects itself. And so part of that self-protection is to blame an oust.
And the moment we find ourselves in that mechanism, blame and owls, it it it is it's a
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (50:17)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (50:17)
way to not acknowledge the poison of the system itself. And so I'm not like I I I heard a heartbreaking, you
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (50:21)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (50:25)
know, everybody's on Instagram talking about the Cornell 57. And so this guy, his his niece called him, said, Don't talk to mom, don't tell mom, first year freshman, don't tell mom, I just wanna I just wanna process something to happen. This is, you know, nerds, theater kids, blah blah.
And they're in a house, she and her friend are downstairs, two guys are upstairs, people that they know and love, and nothing happened. But what did happen is that they overheard the guys talking in private. And so one guy says, Boy, they must have had the time of their life.
So this this this first year call and as I'm hearing it, I'm like, the kid who's talking is 18. His
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (51:05)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (51:05)
brains don't work together so well. So I'm not saying that he's not responsible. He's absolutely responsible, but also it's, you know, and then the other one was like, we gotta make sure that we get some something like that before we leave, whatever the school was. And I I just like I I felt the heartbreak of these two young women who are like.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (51:22)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (51:24)
These are our friends, who do we trust? And the
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:26)
We thought they were the good ones.
Faith Clarke (51:27)
right? And the the this is the one that
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (51:28)
Yes. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (51:30)
walked her home because he said, You shouldn't walk this on this stretch by yourself. I'ma walk
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (51:33)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (51:36)
you on to you know, so so just recognizing that there is the the toxicity is in the air and
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (51:42)
Absolutely.
Faith Clarke (51:42)
How how
to have compassion for people breathing the toxicity while challenging them in their own responsibility and accountability. And yeah, we have to build your immune system then or something. You know, like you you there is a personal challenge while
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (51:57)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (51:58)
also accepting that the mechanism of blame and oust is empire. You know, it's it's it's yeah. So
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (52:04)
Yes, yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:07)
I
think
our algorithms are the same because I saw that same video and it was like, oof. It made me think of my nieces immediately.
Faith Clarke (52:11)
I've I I follow
that I don't follow him, but I hear a lot of his stuff over the years. So
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:14)
It means yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (52:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:18)
Well if d first of all, Hollywood is a system, right? So it's gonna replicate all the systems. It's a it's in its design both ex
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (52:22)
Ooh. And it and it perpetu right. It
Faith Clarke (52:28)
It's an absolute perpetuator. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (52:28)
the it the in its representation it is yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:31)
Right. But
both reflects the system that exists and and is continuing to perpetuate the system
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (52:32)
Reinforcing totally.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:35)
at is because it is part of the system. It is the system. It is a
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (52:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:38)
system and part of the system. And what I'm taking from what you've shared today is that one, it's like, where do we find our agency? Because I heard some of that from you of like, where do I find my agency inside of this? Where do I 'cause like theater
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (52:47)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:49)
felt like there I have more agency. Creating some things feels like I have agency. Yeah. And then where
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (52:52)
Agency is the word, yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:54)
do I find my community? Because in both of those cases, too, it's like I'm
In theater, I feel this sense of community that changes the relationship I have with this, me creating this thing. I can call in this community. And so those are the things that I'm sort of taking from what you're saying. And that to me, it's
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (53:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (53:08)
like when we feel those feelings of the overwhelm and that I can't change this and whatever I have, it's leaning into where do I have agency? Where can I call in my community so that I can then be a part of.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (53:16)
Yep. Absolutely.
Faith Clarke (53:19)
I think for
me, where am I not separated from my story? Where where where
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (53:22)
Right.
Faith Clarke (53:23)
where does my story and me kind of sit together and feel like it, you
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (53:27)
Absolutely.
Faith Clarke (53:28)
know, I don't have to be separate from my story to kind of be present in that moment.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (53:31)
I I'll just I'll
say this is all connected to why Trujillo's called Trujillo and why truth, justice and love. Because I was examining when I was doing one drop, I was really examining wha why is this having an impact? Like why why are people really it was it you know, we were
I was having a lot of these conversations afterwards around like what how it was planting seeds for people to think about race and racism differently. And and so I kept thinking like what what is you know, what are the elements here? Can I pull this back and see what are the elements that are leading to that? And and that that's how really truth, justice, love came to me because it's like it it it has to start with us.
Always digging for truth, which is context, which is like historical context that brought us to this moment. All the ways that we identify ourselves, all the ways that we walk in the world, we were not did not just happen this morning when we woke up. There's all of this history that came to why these boys did what they did to K.
There's all of this context, and we have to continually seek that. It ha it we always have to ask ourselves: do we have the full context here? That's what I mean by truth. Because when you do that and you pursue justice, you are pursuing it with that context. Sometimes we go
Faith Clarke (55:05)
Absolutely.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (55:06)
to do that work without that full context. We need that full context, and so it's
In that order is truth and justice on purpose, that it starts with that context, and then we do our activism work, right? Our our work towards dismantling the the those truths that we're uncovering. And then the love is, you know, people would always say, or there were some folks who would say, like, I just love everybody. I don't see color. I don't, you know, this thing. And I'll
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (55:36)
That still exists.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (55:37)
and I and I was like.
If you are not speaking the truth, and then if you are not taking that truth and pursuing justice based on that truth, you don't love everybody. That's not love.
Faith Clarke (55:50)
That's not love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (55:53)
If you really want to show love, it's not you giving somebody a hug. It's not even you, it is you speaking truth out loud and pursuing justice based on that truth.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (56:06)
Mm.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (56:06)
That's
what true justice love means.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (56:10)
And I love that. Truthfully. I didn't mean to say it that way, but no, I really do I really do love it. That's beautiful.
It really is sitting with me as I'm in this in my own little experience personally with the school and the and the white parents and the all sorts of things that are happening. It just I'm gonna remember that. I'm gonna move that and say that. Thank you. And and I just
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (56:26)
Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (56:29)
wanted to mention too, like for people listening, also just for the Hollywood element of this of like
You know, what does that look like for me to support? 'Cause we're ten years past a decade past haul Oscar so white. And I think you would probably say, not only have things not maybe gotten changed, they gotten better, they maybe in some ways have things gotten worse. Yeah. Right.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (56:44)
We're dec we are decreasing. We are. We are
we are back sliding backwards because twenty twenty they gave us Juneteenth and they're like, What more do you want? And you know, and we it's very clear that it was all lip service and now our number all of the numbers LGBTQ, people with disabilities, you know, neurodivergent folks, back to z you know, zero representation. So we got work to do.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (57:09)
Yeah. And the continued consolidation
of Hollywood and the and streaming services, all the things. So, but I
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (57:14)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (57:14)
would say again, just for the consumer side of things, what you said I think also applies there. It's where do I have agency? And some of that looks like how do I seek out the how do I seek out what creators like you and the people that you're involved with, right? Where do I seek out that kind of content
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (57:29)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (57:29)
instead of just depending on the things that are coming to me? Because I think often
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (57:32)
That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (57:33)
we'll Well, this is what's on the TV or whatever. And it's like, that is true. And
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (57:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (57:37)
Thankfully,
the one thing that is important is there are more ways with YouTube and podcasting and all these other things
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (57:43)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (57:43)
for you to find alternative entertainment from people who are trying to challenge these norms.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (57:46)
Absolutely. I'll I'll
Faith Clarke (57:48)
What am
I in pursuit of? Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (57:48)
I'll yeah, I'll just shout out
Quelly TV is one of my favorites. So black woman owned streaming platform. You can subscribe to it. I think she's got like over 800 titles, diasporic in in nature. And it's it's really when I'm flipping through and like I'm not gonna watch shit if there's not a dark skinned person within the first five minutes. I can go to Quelly and that's ever you know.
That is w what I can find always. So there are platforms.
Faith Clarke (58:17)
Can you spell that?
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (58:18)
Yeah, K W E L I T V. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (58:21)
Yeah, we'll link to
it. I love it 'cause the the phrase the catchphrase or something is like binge on the culture, which is nice. Like it's not free to binge on something different. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (58:26)
Exactly, exactly. Nice, Becky. Yeah, yeah. But there's
a lot and you're right. Just support support folks that that are not telling the same old, same old, right? Like so you know, yeah, and demand demand more and listen to Sister Brunch. Absolutely, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (58:37)
Yeah. And go listen to Sister's Brunch because that's an also a place I
mean, not just to be promotional, but also a place to learn about people that are trying to change things from inside.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (58:48)
A hundred
percent and that and that did the work behind some of your favorites and you didn't know it.
Faith Clarke (58:54)
the name of the podcast is Yes and Otherwise. And I'm gonna just throw the yes and together for you and just say, what are you saying yes to? But what are you saying yes and to? You could just complete it with any thought. It doesn't have to even connect to anything. So what are you saying yes to? What are you saying yes and to?
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (59:14)
Mmm saying yes to returning to building community, saying yes and to that it is okay, despite being raised and named raised by communists and socialists, but that it
Faith Clarke (59:36)
Okay.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (59:36)
is okay for money to be part of.
Building that community and supporting that community.
Faith Clarke (59:43)
Yes. that sounds good. That feels good. Otherwise
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (59:46)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (59:47)
finish that sentence. Otherwise.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (59:49)
Otherwise
we we will not be able to tell our stories in the ways that reach broad audiences w without money, without funding. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thank you
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (1:00:05)
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much, Fanshin. This was wonderful. And
Faith Clarke (1:00:05)
It just collapses. Yeah. Yeah.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (1:00:12)
both.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (1:00:12)
just getting to be in conversations with folks like Faith and you and Judy and Igosa and all the people we've having, like it just it's so important 'cause speaking of community, it just makes you start that's when I at least being in these kinds of conversations, and I bet you feel it with Sisto's brunch, it is what makes you feel like this is sustainable and I can't do this and I'm not alone. So thank you.
Fanshen Cox (she/they) (1:00:31)
Absolutely yes.
Thank you so much.
Faith Clarke (1:00:34)
Take care.