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A podcast that explores the inspiring origin stories of developers from across the community. Tune in for insightful interviews that dive into the journeys, challenges, and successes that shaped their careers.
Sam Huckaby: [00:00:00] First of all, thanks for being willing to come talk to me.
Marvellous: yeah anytime actually
Sam Huckaby: I think it's just, it's like, It's weird that we can just do stuff on the internet. Right.
Marvellous: I know it's everything is just there You can just you can talk to someone from like in canada. You're in the u. s Or I could be in africa
Sam Huckaby: Yeah. I talked to somebody in Germany earlier today.
Marvellous: Oh
Sam Huckaby: Well, let's actually, let's dive into this. So. I've given you the questions ahead of time, so you've had a chance to think about some of these answers.
Marvellous: yeah.
Sam Huckaby: So let's just go to the very beginning.
Marvellous: All right.
Sam Huckaby: Where was the first place? that you ever like interacted with programming.
Marvellous: The first place I ever interacted with programming would probably be on SoloLearn. It's an app. And I needed to make a website for my mom. [00:01:00] I didn't know how to go about that. I, I tried building some sites with like, uh, like, all the like online website builders, but I was like, Oh, this is way too limiting.
I was like, I'm just going to do this myself. And then I tried learning HTML, CSS and HTML, C, HTML and CSS. And I learned that for a while. And I was like, yeah, this is going nowhere. So, Um, then I learned PHP actually before JavaScript, which is weird to say, then I learned JavaScript. So it's like just to build a site for my mom, I somehow got into CS.
Sam Huckaby: Okay. So when did this, like, how old were you when this kind of went down?
Marvellous: I was like 13. Yeah. I was like around, [00:02:00] started learning when I was 13, but around 12, I had built some like, like websites with Website viewers and I didn't like those.
Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. What was the reason why you were needing to build websites?
Marvellous: Yeah, just for my mom. So you would if you check my discord, sorry my github I've been doing a lot of discord today if you check my github, you'd see I have a school management system so she like runs schools and needed a school website and especially during the pandemic, which I was lucky. I was lucky to be able to build something for her, for her school to like do online classes during the pandemic, which was nice. So yeah, just to build a school website,
Sam Huckaby: Okay. Nice. So [00:03:00] you started building these websites. Did she ask you to build the websites or were you just kind of like, I'm going to do this?
Marvellous: Um, I was like, I was just, I was going to do this, but now she's asking, she's asking me about it now because like she's seen the value of the pandemic, but. Um, initially it was just me saying, I'm going to do this for her.
Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. Did you kind of have to talk her into it a little bit? Like you need a website.
Marvellous: Oh, she just gave me the leeway. Just do what you want. Yeah.
Sam Huckaby: Okay. So you're building websites and you're doing it. Pretty much just raw HTML, CSS.
Marvellous: Yeah. I mean, a little bit of PHP,
Sam Huckaby: Okay. But still just raw, no frameworks or anything.
Marvellous: frameworks yet.
Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. So what made you move to frameworks? Does that happen before college?
Marvellous: Yeah. I've [00:04:00] been using frameworks since like 2020 instead of using Laravel around 2020, 2021. So it was like, uh, how do I, I wrote my own auth and I was like, this is probably not secure. And I was like. People are like, the next logical step after you learn PHP is to learn, Laravel. I was actually learning Laravel and learning JavaScript at the same time.
Well, I would say most of my JavaScript knowledge comes from around that period when I learned Laravel and maybe work. So that's when I, um, pivoted to using like, uh, the Laravel framework. Also, I heard of Tailwind around that time. I started with Bootstrap and Bootstrap wasn't just me and I think I built like the first version of my school management system with Bootstrap, but I was like, I don't like this and then switched [00:05:00] to Tailwind.
Sam Huckaby: Have you ever used any of the Tailwind like components or other paid packages?
Marvellous: I've, except, like, what comes with Jetstream, I've always hand rolled mine, like, I also have, like, uh, you might have seen it on X, I ended up building, like, a Shadsea and Falarao type package.
Sam Huckaby: Yeah.
Marvellous: I typically like, I'm someone that like, I like doing it my, I'm like, fine, I'll do it myself.
Sam Huckaby: Okay. So what was the frame set when you decided you're going to college? Was it just, I'm for sure, computer science or?
Marvellous: no, actually, no, I, so I graduated in 2020 and I start, I started with medicine. I was initially meant to be a doctor and I, um, so, well, I did like general, like sciences, like biology, [00:06:00] chemistry, physics. Yeah. And from 2021, but then I was like, okay, I actually, I know this stuff. Like I know computing, so I want to switch. So I did general engineering for one year. So that had me repeating courses for some reason. Um, I did physics, chemistry and physics, chemistry, and math. So I, like, I did the same physics for two years and the same physics for, and the same chemistry for two years. Then, don't know what, I worked, like, professionally in 2023, because I was applying to my current university in Canada. then 2024, I, well, 2020, 2023, 2024, I'm right here.
Sam Huckaby: Okay, so where were you before Canada?
Marvellous: I was in my home country, Nigeria. Yes, I'm originally from Nigeria.
Sam Huckaby: Okay, cool. How did [00:07:00] you find your school in Canada
Marvellous: It was a mixture of what's cheap and what's good. Yeah,
Sam Huckaby: as it should be?
Marvellous: it's still not cheap.
Sam Huckaby: It never is. Okay, so you've made the made the move you're in Canada You're at college now. You're figuring classes out. What was the moment when you decided to? I'm not going to do medicine. I'm going to do computer science.
Marvellous: Oh, it was in 2022. I was like, I'm, I would say I'm decent at like, um, biology and all that stuff. I can memorize a few words here and there, but I was like, I'm, picked up this framework. I'm doing like stuff that no one in that, well, that I have seen no one do like. Around me. Not like, obviously there are like 13 year old programmers everywhere. So I was like, but I'm [00:08:00] seeing like, I'm doing something that I see no one around me doing. So I might as well just go all in. And I really liked, I didn't really like having to memorize stuff. I felt like I was just using like. The storage, the storage capacity of my brain instead of using my CPU, that's how I'd say it. So it's like, uh, I was like, okay, this, this feels logical. This programming feels logical. Programming feels right. programming feels pedantic. Which is a bad thing in social relationships, but programming feels like I just like the logical nature of programming. So I was like, I am not going, I want to switch.
And I actually thought my mom wasn't going to be on board, but she was like, Hey, go ahead.
Sam Huckaby: Oh, okay. So before we move to the computer science part of college here, what's some stuff from like, uh, the medical side that maybe I don't know?
Marvellous: And the medical side.[00:09:00]
Sam Huckaby: Yeah,
Marvellous: stuff in the medical side that you don't know. I was, I mean, I did general biology, so I hadn't like specialized yet, but I can, I could probably rant about a whole lot of zoology because I had to like do the labs and I had to learn the, like core data, you record that, like the types of.
Like, all the phylons classes, super phylons, wasn't fun, was not fun. it's like, uh, okay, what is one fact in medicine that you probably don't know? We have, uh, we, we have two different classifications of the immune system, which I cannot remember the second, but I think the one is like the ones that is like reactive, like when the bacteria enters the body, and then one is like the active defenders. Probably a [00:10:00] terrible fact because I, I remember almost nothing about Yeah.
Sam Huckaby: Do you feel like there's still a lot of stuff from biology and stuff that's still bouncing around? Do you feel like you've just dumped it?
Marvellous: I can probably like, uh, do, um, from, um, the classical data. I can probably still mention like a lot of the phylons and classes. I still have like, uh, remember I also did physics and chemistry that year. So I still have, I'm taking a physics course now and I am like, I'm still rocking physics somehow. Yeah.
Sam Huckaby: Nice. I mean, I feel like physics, maybe you're still kind of using computer science.
Marvellous: Yeah,
Sam Huckaby: I guess chemistry, maybe not.
Marvellous: it's really been helpful. I'm looking into maybe taking some courses on like quantum like quantum Computing gotta see if google finally snatches me up[00:11:00]
Sam Huckaby: Maybe. I mean, I don't know anything about quantum.
So you've made the switch now to computer science. How long have you been in the computer science program?
Marvellous: Is it like the program or yeah, i've been here for this is like my second year in cs And it's been weird so far.
Sam Huckaby: What, what makes it weird?
Marvellous: It's like, uh, um, I learned nothing new, but I learned so much new stuff. It's like, I already know how to program. I already know data structures. I already know all this stuff. But sometimes like there are just some things that some instructors say, I'm like, okay, yeah, that is, that make, that puts things into perspective.
That's, that's a nice way to think about it. So it's when people tell me that a CS degree is maybe not for the price, not worth it for the price, but like you [00:12:00] definitely learn stuff in CS. So punch on you meet like some amazing instructors professors and you like get to hear their stories and how they automate that stuff.
But say like things like AI. um, the impacts of AI and anything AI. I think, like, ComSci students typically are trend chasers. So you get, you get tired of hearing, You think Twitter is bad? Come to a university.
Sam Huckaby: Okay. So what do you mean by trend chasers?
Marvellous: so it's like, uh, so right now everyone's just like, like computing isn't just about like maybe the next big thing. Like some years ago it was like blockchain and now it's like AI and the universities are like, okay, we had a, we are going to push out this blockchain course. And now we're going to [00:13:00] push out this AI course. I'm like, but there are some Pretty good fields in computing like networking. I really like that, but no one cares about that, and that is where they'll probably get a job in, everyone's just like, okay, I want to, I just want to get to this class and take this course. And it's like, that is trend chasing to me. It's not necessarily, it's not inherently bad, but I feel like there is more to CS than just AI or just what's currently what's in like what everyone's talking about right now.
Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. That makes sense.
Marvellous: Yeah.
Sam Huckaby: So you said that you're currently working and you're in field. So tell me about
Marvellous: uh,
Sam Huckaby: how'd you find that job? Okay. Yeah,
Marvellous: Um, a contract role. I don't know if I'm allowed to say where I work when it's a contract role, but it's an [00:14:00] animation studio in Quebec. And, um, the CTO reached out to me and he told me that they needed some LiveWire developers. And I was like, that's nice.
Cause I'm currently looking for a gig. I was almost like, maybe just applied to Walmart because I was like, I need, I need something. So told, he like, he was like, okay, we need, need a library developer. And I was like, um, are you kidding me? I checked the website. I was like, nah, this cannot be real. Because yeah, it felt too good to be true. Like some, um, shout out to Lara Deer, Lara, like Lara directory, Lara Deer. is where I got my job from. It's like, uh, um, he reached out to me. He was like, I am the CTO of this company. Company X. And I was like, could you please, because he did like his name, his name wasn't on [00:15:00] his profile.
And I was like, um, could you tell me your name please? And he was like, Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot to update my profile. he, I asked him if he could like message me, like email me with the official company email. And he did. So that is how I got my job somehow. And it's currently paying my tuition, which is nice.
Sam Huckaby: that's always a win. So let's talk more about how did you learn programming languages? So like. When you start using PHP, or maybe if you start, when you start using Laravel,
Marvellous: Okay.
Sam Huckaby: kind of your approach to learning a new language or a new framework?
Marvellous: So, um, I had a goal. I, when I started programming, I had just, well, I had side, I had projects on the side, but I had one goal to create that school management system for my mom. [00:16:00] So when I learned HTML and CSS, I tried building a school website out of that, but it wasn't sufficient and it was probably one of my worst designs. Then I learned PHP and. Well, I was also doing WordPress around that time, but I learned PHP like, okay, no, I can do off and I can do, um, I can also, I can do everything. I can read from a database. I can write to a database and I viewed, I said, I tried to start, I like, I tried building stuff with it. I built a bunch of stuff with just PHP, but I was like, okay, this is also going to be really difficult because I knew like entry level PHP, like mixing view logic and. regular PHP code. And then that's when I learned like, um, and I learned most of my PHP from Danny crossing. He was formerly called M. M. Tuts [00:17:00] on YouTube and he then talked about, okay, we have this thing called the MVC pattern. I'm like, okay, I'm going to try building this with MVC pattern now. And that is when I, around that period is when I got like the worst bug I've ever encountered with. If I encountered, so I had, I sat there for like 16 hours trying to figure out why some, why something wasn't working right. Turns out I wrote. instead of states. So 16 hours just for an S typo. I forgot an S, so yeah.
Sam Huckaby: Those are the worst.
Marvellous: I know, but a hundred bad days makes a hundred good stories.
Sam Huckaby: Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Marvellous: So, and it's like, it allows me to say, hey, to tell my friends in programming. Hey, you gotta struggle sometimes. You can't just rely on me for the answers. I've struggled with this [00:18:00] and now it made me a better programmer. So, um, that's beside the points. And then I learned to Laravel and that's when I actually started trying to go.
Laravel is just so productive. when I actually felt like, Oh, I can actually use it in Laravel, build this stuff. Like it doesn't seem like a dream to me now. It feels like something that. I can actually do and then I started and I gave up I started again and that is what we have now.
Sam Huckaby: Nice. So kind of stepping back just a minute, you mentioned that you learned a lot of like Laravel stuff from YouTube.
Marvellous: Yeah
Sam Huckaby: So how would you. Like identify a video on YouTube that you think is gonna work well for teaching you programming stuff
Marvellous: Uh, i'm, uh, i'm a playlist guy So I started with the for larval I started with the net ninja larval. I think it was [00:19:00] larval six ninja larval Um, Laravel six, um, tutorial, and then I like tried, I built along, but I tried making like, I didn't build exactly what he built. I tried building like, okay, I've learned this thing and I can take like this variation of this that I can use this same concepts to do something else. So it's like, I don't, I think I somehow escaped tutorial hell before I could even get to tutorial hell, which is. I'm just grateful for that. So, so yeah, I learned it from the net ninja and it's like, I'm more of a, I think the only like for our video I've watched is like the data structures by free code camp, because I'm more of, it's like, um, splitting by playlist is I can just. [00:20:00] Come back to this video some other time and it's like it's broken down into like multiple lessons and I can't say okay I understand everything from this video and I understand everything from this video
Sam Huckaby: So what would be if you turn on a video? What would be something that could happen in that video? I would immediately make you be like this isn't the one I'm not gonna learn from this video and turn it off
Marvellous: Um, it's, uh, it's more of, um, I am not someone that I don't vibe with just do this. I want to know why we are doing this. So um, if it's a like programming video and you just, and you tell me that I should just, okay, just write this or just type this down without telling me what this is, to explain to me what a route is and what a middleware is and what JSON is.
Okay.
Sam Huckaby: All right. So coming out to your your work at your current company.
Marvellous: Okay.[00:21:00]
Sam Huckaby: What sort of Uh, sort of day to day tasks that you're kind of doing right now.
Marvellous: I tell, well, I like to describe my job as abusing LiveWire. We abuse LiveWire. Um, so I do a, well, I somehow became a front end developer in like, uh, between like this year, I've done more front end with LiveWire than I've done actual backend Laravel because I'm building a UI library and I coincidentally got a job. So it's like, uh, so what I do on a day to day, so I typically get those live wire bugs that no one can fix. And how bad do we abuse live wire? We have modals everywhere, like everything. We don't use pages anymore. We use modals for like all the videos. And it's just, I don't know how to explain [00:22:00] it.
It's just weird, but we absolutely put, we pushed live wire to its core.
Sam Huckaby: Okay.
Marvellous: Yeah. We are pushing live wire to its core. So it's limits, but it's surprisingly held up. Like it's something I'm, I've always, you might just see some straight tweets like from me, like praising Caleb. like. Sometimes I'm like, can livewire handle this and, or, not just livewire, livewire and alpine, because alpine is just like the, that golden sword of livewire. So it's like, can livewire and alpine handle this? And the answer is usually yes.
Sam Huckaby: Alright. So what was your experience like when you were first starting out at this company? Were you like junior level, mid level?
Marvellous: Uh, I, I jumped, I think I jumped in quite early. So, um, well, I think I would [00:23:00] ask the question, what would I do better next time if I'm starting a different job? Because, um, I know one thing I tried doing was jumping in and fixing stuff without knowing, like without context. Yeah. I wouldn't do that anymore. Cause it's like, why, why is this written in such a terrible way? I don't have the context for that. I shouldn't be trying to fix that but now that I like I have full context I can Make and my my my boss is probably pissed at me for that So I sometimes like submit that 4000 change pr i'm like, hey, dude, this is a refactor of This thing and it's like what?
Sam Huckaby: But why?
Marvellous: Like it was just written just some things are terrible Like the people that did it don't really know live wire So i'm trying like i'm fixing their mistakes every [00:24:00] and we built on top of their mistakes. So now it's like It's a legacy news. It's a new legacy system. So I'm, I'm trying to like wrong all the rights while trying to also increase speed and all that. But I tried doing that at the start. I also tried like, um, being dogmatic. We're using SCSS and I was like, no, let's review this in tailwind because I love tailwind, but I didn't even give SCSS a try. I've used, I, I will say I'm, um, Good at css. I wouldn't even say decent. I'll say i'm good at css I was like, I don't want to write any css I just want to do tailwind in this job, but the scss is actually pretty nice it's like I should have I should have just given it a chance
Sam Huckaby: Yeah.
Marvellous: Yeah,
Sam Huckaby: I've used SDSS in the past. I do really like it. I feel like CSS is kind of catching up with SCSS now, but
Marvellous: yeah, [00:25:00] I know it's like, um, I should have just given like it's what I think because like one of the things I hated about CSS is like the dupe like re like copying and pasting the names and like when I'm doing a selector but like SCSS doesn't We, we don't need to do that. And we can have shorthands and all that. I think my preferred way of writing CSS is like, um, tailwind, but then some places I'll have like an if style sheet and I'll have like an at apply with tailwind. that is one of my favorite ways of writing CSS. it's like, um, that is something I'm going to change just not being too dark, not being, not being too pedantic, not being too dogmatic because I see it's something in CS. That I see a lot and that I, I, I still, I wouldn't say I used to, I still struggle with it sometimes because it's like, I don't know, I do not know [00:26:00] like the context or what this person has talked. I don't know where this person's views are from. I don't know what the person has. Um, has like gone through and I don't know that like the experiences, I don't know why they're saying something is in such a way it's, yeah, it really happens with me and my professors, but then sometimes I have to remember that these professors have been programming since I was born, so I should probably not argue with them.
Sam Huckaby: yeah, I mean, I, I, when I was in college, I had a class on software engineering and my professor taught us about productivity methodologies.
Marvellous: Oh,
Sam Huckaby: One of them was agile.
Marvellous: Yeah, this is the exact same course we I have our I have like had an argument about a job
Sam Huckaby: But like, I asked my professor what Scrum was and he didn't know. [00:27:00] He literally didn't know.
Marvellous: Yeah
Sam Huckaby: So every now and then, you gotta know that they don't always know.
Marvellous: Yeah, I mean like my prof and this is a class. I'm currently taking she's her she's really good, but like I was like I had some questions about TDD and I think she mixes up TDD and like, testing, test first, but like, that is something that I like, try to recognize. Like, this is something that I'm like, anytime I go to class, I'm like, this lady is a well of information.
She has like so much information, but she made one mistake. I wouldn't judge, like, I wouldn't judge how effective a professor is from one mistake.
Sam Huckaby: So have you leveraged much pair programming at your current job?
Marvellous: There is no, there is no programming in my, I don't think anyone can even [00:28:00] use my NeoVim config. No,
Sam Huckaby: Neither, by the way.
Marvellous: I use NeoVim, by the way. But job, but like, um, now in university where I have to like, I tutor a bunch of my friends. It's like, uh, I cannot program with you. When, oh, sorry, you cannot program it to me when I use NeoVim, like my some, like my friends are like, why can't I even move?
Why can't I write text? It's like, you got to learn the Vim motions first. I typically, if I'm pair programming, I'm typically in like the situation of I'm looking over their shoulders and telling them, are you sure you want to be doing that?
Yeah.
Sam Huckaby: Yeah, that's definitely a trick with just all of the different fan variants and Emacs. I was at Laracon, and I was helping With the [00:29:00] basketball game stream
Marvellous: Oh,
Sam Huckaby: and, uh, the computer that I was like interacting with was, um, Adam. dev.
Marvellous: oh
Sam Huckaby: And he had like this whole full thing up. I could not figure out how to interact with any of his editors.
Marvellous: Was it Vim? Let me guess. Um, Arch, i3, NeoVim.
Sam Huckaby: no, no, it was, it was Mac. He had all the
Marvellous: Mac. I
Sam Huckaby: key
Marvellous: was about to say with programming sucks, but okay, Mac.
Sam Huckaby: Yeah.
Marvellous: Yeah. So, um, he had a, so it was a Mac. What, can I ask what editor?
Sam Huckaby: Uh, it was new of him,
Marvellous: It was NeoVim. Oh,
Sam Huckaby: but he had like, he had like tile. I don't know. Thailand, If TJ
listens, just close your ears, I'm terrible at Neoban, and I always just use one buffer. I never tile.
Marvellous: I'd use [00:30:00] TMUX if I were you.
Sam Huckaby: I'm just happy.
Marvellous: Do you do
Sam Huckaby: Focus in my lane, just one panel, I'm fine.
Marvellous: I mean, I typically have like, um, my new, Oh, I know this is a developer origin but my NeoVim config is, uh, well, I typically use one buffer. I don't do tabs. I've never done tabs, but I use Harpoon. Harpoon allows me to like, uh, I have like, um, out U I O P for my first, second, third, and fourth happen item. then I can also do D U D I D O D P to delete those like items from the harpoon list. Then I also do T marks for I'm working on multiple projects and I don't want to like, uh, I don't want to do multiple. I, I, I have, I've never tried a Thailand window manager, but I think I'm going to suck at it. So I just use tmux [00:31:00] and like, uh, control bn.
It opens a new terminal. I do another nvim and I have two instances and I can switch using control bn or control bp. So that is just my setup and it works well because I, I ship out a lot of code in a day, which is insane using NeoVim. I've never felt as productive as I feel right now.
Sam Huckaby: Nice. Yeah, I love Neoban. We have to get back to this interview. So, we've come down to the harder questions, um, so the last couple. So, first of all, what is sort of like the goal of Neoban? And I realized you were like in college, but like, where are you wanting to go with this career? Like in 30 years, 20 years, what are you doing?
Marvellous: Um, I mean, Apart from making so much money, that was never my goal, but it's like, [00:32:00] uh, if I can, I probably should try. I just wanna, like, one of my goals is, like, to become, like, uh, a, like, someone that's, that has contributed to the field of programming. So like, uh, some of these people like, uh, maybe Grady Butch or Dijkstra or, um, what's that dude's name that created, um, Haskell that no one uses. I can't remember his name. Okay. Not that, not that relevant.
Sam Huckaby: Don't be that guy.
Marvellous: I'm kidding. This is a joke. Um, so I just want to be one of those people. Or like, I want to contribute back to programming. So I want to, or maybe even just someone that like viewed something very interesting, like James, James Gosling, I hope I don't say Ryan Gosling by accident um, [00:33:00] Or like maybe a dude that created Python.
Why do I, I talk about these people every day. Why am I forgetting their names? Um, Python, Russo, was it Russo? And maybe C, K and R. So I want to be like, that's, that's where I want. I want to be like one of the people that are like pioneering the new wherever comes site goes on to be like one of those people. That is Peronarium comcile, maybe even like a public figure, like the primogen or something like that.
Sam Huckaby: That could be cool. You're gonna have to get a webcam though. All right. So The goal then is to make a difference in the world of computer science
Marvellous: Yeah,
Sam Huckaby: and be remembered.
Marvellous: I hope.
Sam Huckaby: Alright, so what are you doing to pursue that goal?
Marvellous: I mean, I try building projects. I try, like, down [00:34:00] to the fundamentals. Well, I'm trying, but I've just been stuck at Laravel. Which is not a bad thing. I love Laravel. But, I wanna, like, my plan is when I ship, like, V1 of, uh, Artists and UI. I would, yeah, I would probably add new features and maybe try working, but I want, like, I want to like explore other things like, um, maybe, maybe low level programming or something like that, or like algorithm analysis, or actually the big one I'm really looking into is quantum computing, because that sounds very interesting.
I've written a university paper on quantum cryptography. As a meme to my English teacher, I told her to pick between rocket science or quantum cryptography, and she picked quantum. Well, she didn't pick, I picked, I picked it for her. And it actually made me like, Oh, this is actually a thing that [00:35:00] exists. Like, this is a problem that hasn't yet been solved. this is like a developing field and it doesn't feel too, um, doesn't feel too like, should I say hyped? To because i'm i don't know why just i am not a fan of hype chase and i've mentioned it here already And it's like when people Speak about AI too much.
I'm like, okay, I liked AI before this happened and now I am not liking AI as much so it's like this is a field that hasn't been um, it's something that hasn't been like Um hyped up way too much and this is actually something that you can that I can actually see if I can make a difference in So yeah, that's what my goals are.
Sam Huckaby: Okay, yeah. So, what kind of stuff are you doing outside of Laravel? Anything, just
Marvellous: Is it in programming or[00:36:00]
Sam Huckaby: in general, like learning.
Marvellous: I'm, I'm, I, uh, I play the piano. So that's one thing. I play the piano by ear. I'm also a singer. I do some audio engineering
Sam Huckaby: Okay.
Marvellous: just a bunch of stuff. I really like physics. So, so I do a bunch of stuff, but I would say that I mostly program nowadays because of like work and school and trying to make an open source project. I write a whole bunch of code nowadays.
Sam Huckaby: What's been your experience with open source so far? Has it been good, bad?
Marvellous: Open source is nice because it's like anything I want I can just like any software I want. don't have to rely on the I don't have to rely on like a paid version, especially [00:37:00] since i'm like a broke university student i'm like using linux and i'm and i'm Using like open source stuff for everything and i'm using new and i'm using and all these things projects have like, um vibrant communities and i'm using laravel. So I tried building open source projects Well, not lot not a lot of I wouldn't say they get excessive they get like a lot of traction Well, I wouldn't say they're not getting any traction because like I think artisan ui At the moment is in one 32 stars for a project that they introduced. Um, so like three or four or five months ago. So it's no flux, but it's, uh, it's, I mean, it's getting there. So I feel like it's just a journey, but it's a journey. I'm I, I enjoy, I would say I've learned more [00:38:00] from building open source. So I viewed the school management system, open source, it has taught. me two things that I should consider people's use cases, and I should not consider people's use cases, if that makes any
Sam Huckaby: Not every use case is valid.
Marvellous: not every use case is valid.
So, um, so I, I consider like people's use cases are okay. If, what is the person, what, if you want to use it like this or like this, how, how far can I make this, um, customizable without actually compromising on quality and DX. So, and that is, uh, that is a question I've asked that has really improved how I write code. So, and I would say that the greatest thing that has happened to my career is writing software, like other people are going to use it.
Sam Huckaby: Have you contributed to much open source, um, that you didn't create like other people's projects?
Marvellous: [00:39:00] I have contributed, I've contributed to a bunch, but I wouldn't say I have contributed to a whole lot.
Sam Huckaby: Okay. Anything in particular that stands out?
Marvellous: Um, know I, at some point I tried, um, haven't contributed much. I'm a, I'm a lazy developer. I don't want to git pull and git push a project and read their guidelines. I should probably start doing that soon, it's like, um, like some, some of the projects that I've been on that has like no maintenance. like the developer isn't too um, too like available. I try helping with issues and with, um, all that stuff. I try helping like look for debug issues and maybe like this person is having an issue. I like give support for free and all that. So yeah, I'll say I'm, I've, [00:40:00] I've done more of a, I've been in more of a support role than an actual. Like contributing code role.
Sam Huckaby: Okay. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, that's still valuable. People still need that help.
I mean, if you're gonna, if you're gonna leave your indelible mark on the community, though, you're probably going to need to start building some like PRs.
Marvellous: Yeah. I, I know, I know just that I, I don't know. I just never see like. Stuff that I need to, like in Laravel for the things I use Laravel, what, what bugs am I finding in Laravel? I find no bugs and I'm typically satisfied with Laravel. I've, I think I've tried contributing code to Livewire, but like, okay, we, we don't want to do it this way.
Then we'll do it this other way. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. I was trying to fix a bug and the, it ended up being fixed like weeks later, but it got fixed. That's what I'm happy [00:41:00] about. just the couple of places. It's not like I do not actively try. I try, if I see that there is an there's, there is a place to make an improvement, I try doing the improvements.
It's just that I don't, I don't really encounter that much problems. We are, it is the framework or the that's the cause.
Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. Have you considered like looking at some of the communities that like are still developing? Like OCaml.
Marvellous: I have no OCaml knowledge, but that is, I want to learn a functional language.
Sam Huckaby: OCaml's a good place to start.
Marvellous: I already know a lot of functional paradigm concepts, so I might as well just, because I'm branching. I, I said, I said that my goal after this is to branch out, learn more about the like CPU and also learn like a functional language and all that stuff.[00:42:00]
Sam Huckaby: OCaml would be a really good place to start.
Marvellous: Are you OCaml Shilling right now?
Sam Huckaby: Oh, I am absolutely shilling right now.
You should give it a look. You might like it.
Marvellous: yeah, I should probably.
Sam Huckaby: I definitely feel like OCaml made me a better TypeScript developer.
Marvellous: Oh,
Sam Huckaby: exciting.
Marvellous: I have done almost no TypeScript. I
Sam Huckaby: Got yourself lucky.
Marvellous: know. I heard that the TypeScript type system is itself Turing complete. So, after hearing that, I was like, What is going on in TypeScript land?
Sam Huckaby: I mean, Microsoft has 10 and everything now, but
Marvellous: Oh, yeah,
Sam Huckaby: it's all right. I'd probably stick with Laravel. I would go TypeScript.
Marvellous: I mean, Laravel, it's like Laravel doesn't like I can use TypeScript for my front end and Laravel for my back end and like pair it up with something like inertia. [00:43:00] It's just that I haven't, like, I've built everything, like, not everything. I've, I've used Vue, but I didn't use, like, Vue with TypeScript. I think I did in one project, but I didn't do, like, the types itself. I was just writing JavaScript in a TypeScript file. like, everything I've built, like, even, like, my, my past job, I built a food delivery system like DoorDash with, like, real time monitoring and all that nice stuff. And I actually, I able to somehow build this with Alpine So Alpine JS is so underrated and it's like, um, most of the things that you need from a framework like React, you can somehow get it just that reactivity, that opening of menus or that popping of models or, intersection observers and all that stuff. can get it from Alpine. [00:44:00] So every project I'm currently working with LiveWire and Alpine and my previous job, I worked with and Alpine. So it's like, I just haven't had the need to use TypeScript yet.
Sam Huckaby: Now wait a second. You said previous jobs? How many jobs have you had?
Marvellous: This is my second job in programming.
Sam Huckaby: Did we miss a job when we were going through the career section?
Marvellous: Oh, whoops. I think I briefly mentioned it. So, uh, I was like in 2023, I worked. For like a year and then went to the university.
Sam Huckaby: Oh, okay. And it was in Laravel school.
Marvellous: Yeah, it was in
Sam Huckaby: Okay.
Marvellous: Laravel. So, I would consider myself a level developer now. Yeah,
Sam Huckaby: All right. Yeah. So prior to that job, you had no college.
Marvellous: no, no college. I [00:45:00] was, I, and I, I don't really count the work I did for my mom as a job experience, but. Um, it was, treated it like a job. So I woke up every morning and had to work and had to like maintain the school's website for the online courses. And all that, that, that was what I did for like through the pandemic, so it was, it made me, I would say that that was another crucial time that made me like, would say that made me a programmer programmer in like the pandemic.
Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. So let's lay out the, lay out a timeline here. Now that, We've untangled a little. So, pandemic. You start programming, like, for a job, quote unquote, for this school stuff.
Marvellous: Yes,
Sam Huckaby: You're taking that on, that's your daily thing, and then, You leave. [00:46:00] Well, this first job is your first job in Nigeria or in Canada.
Marvellous: my first job was in Nigeria, so I studied, I went to the university for like two years. One for medicine and one for general engineering. then the one year in between 2023, from think March to August, I was working for a company like using Laravel
Sam Huckaby: Okay. So first, those first two years of college were in Nigeria.
Marvellous: Yes.
Sam Huckaby: Okay. So two years of college, you do your first job. It's Laravel, then you leave. You decide you're going to make the switch to computer science and then you end up in college in Canada.
Marvellous: Well, I, uh, I would say that I decided that I would switch in, my first year of university, but, and then I [00:47:00] tried switching in Nigeria. But, um, my, like Nigeria, it's um, it's, it's like when you've tailored your, everything, like your studies and the exams you wrote, when it's tailored for medicine, hard to pivot to computing science. And then we had like a terrible teacher strike for like months. And my mom got, my mom got so frustrated with the education system in Nigeria that she sent me here that I was waiting in 2023 for the, like, visa and all that stuff, the processing of everything to get here. And that's why I worked.
Sam Huckaby: Gotcha. Okay. So worked, waiting for the visa. Then you made the, the jump to Canada, got into school in Canada, found this new job
Marvellous: Yep.
Sam Huckaby: or this new job found you, whichever you want to [00:48:00] say it. Um, and that's, now we're at present day. Okay. We've, we've worked it out. Okay, man.
Marvellous: Yes. Yeah.
Sam Huckaby: You've come, like, kind of a long way for someone who's still in college.
Marvellous: it's been a crazy ride.
Sam Huckaby: So, what's, what's next? What are you gonna do this year?
Marvellous: I'm just trying to get more CS knowledge while working on like, um, other skills. Like, uh, so I've been, since I've been programming, my degree is more of. everything else than actual CS, even though actual CS is like the main focus. So I've taken like business and I've taken statistics and I've taken, psychology. And I've taken philosophy. So I'm just taking, um, and now I'm taking physics. So [00:49:00] I'm like using, I'm exploring like different fields of everything using like my university electives while I'm also taking things in, um, programming. So we did Java and are doing DSA data structures and algorithms now. And so I'm probably going to pay more attention in a class like mobile development, because I've done absolutely no mobile. I tried doing Flutter once and I never did Flutter again anymore because I couldn't, I didn't know the difference between stateful and stateless widgets.
Sam Huckaby: I don't either, so I don't blame you.
Marvellous: So, well, I think I probably know that now, but it didn't, it made no sense to me at that time. So, but, um, so now what my plan is to just keep learning cum stuff and keep working.
Well, My goal is to get better at programming while also like getting those [00:50:00] years like experience counter going up. So it's like, I've been working. I want to graduate saying I have 10 years of experience, maybe unlike or five years of professional experience. So I don't get into like a saturated market for me because it's saturated for juniors, but it isn't that saturated for, it is still saturated, but you get the point. The higher you go, the less Competition you get. So I think that like that's one of my goals. I also wanna maybe might be a stretch.
It's it's been in my mind, but I don't know how possible it would be in university since I'm like dealing with a bunch of stuff, but just looking for ideas and trying to From a startup that I meant so I can get my own 37 or was it 57 million bucks [00:51:00] just saying
Sam Huckaby: I mean, you gotta aim big.
Marvellous: Yeah I'm trying so just I just keep look just keep searching for ideas and maybe I don't know how Feasible that is for now because I know you're gonna learn before you Actually try doing but and then I also want to see if I can keep like growing my open source or Maybe even just for fun start the youtube channel. I don't know who would want to watch that but
Sam Huckaby: I'd watch it.
Marvellous: Ah, thanks.
Sam Huckaby: Yeah, I mean, that's a good way to start. That was what, uh, I don't know if you had a chance to watch any of the talks from Lyricon. Um,
Marvellous: I was watching online. I probably would try attending next year's Conference.
Sam Huckaby: be fun. We can hang out.
Marvellous: Yeah, i'll try it's uh, I just have to because I'm from Nigeria and we gotta do visas for everything. That's why I couldn't get to this one.
Sam Huckaby: That makes sense. But the reason I brought [00:52:00] it up, though, was just because that's what, um, the Primogen talked about in his talk, right? Just do what you love.
Marvellous: think I've watched that talk like two times now. That dude inspires me.
Sam Huckaby: It was a good talk. It was a really good talk.
Marvellous: Uh, primogen and he's one of my, one of my sources of inspiration to just keep going.
Sam Huckaby: Yeah.
Marvellous: Yeah.
Sam Huckaby: That's good to have those
Marvellous: think I watch him every morning when I wake up. It's like, there was a new primal being video. And like, I watched that. join on the stream some stupid stuff on youtube chat And then that's a good saturday for me.
Sam Huckaby: what other influences in the community would you say you have?
Marvellous: Um, I don't get that question. Sorry
Sam Huckaby: Oh, sorry. Um, who else in the community would you consider as people that have influenced your career?
Marvellous: Um influenced my career. I mean,
Sam Huckaby: Like your journey as a programmer.
Marvellous: I mean I would [00:53:00] say like I would say like literally everyone I remember tweeting something like that out like literally everyone like I see like stuff on twitter and I see these people grinding every day and I them like release and stuff and I Like, or, like, I see everyone just, like, giving stories of their life, and I, I'm like, this is an inspiration to me, this is, like, this just tells me that, because it's hard. Um, like it's, it's been hard, but it's like every, it's not, you just like learn that you're not, like, you're not just alone on a journey. So like some notable people like Taylor, obviously Taylor, like he, from humble larval beginnings to, okay, now he is, uh, the Lambo dude that somehow raised 57 million bucks to form larval cloud.
So it's like the larval story to me is like a story from like a humble beginnings. So now a successful, [00:54:00] it wasn't perfect. Darva was never perfect. Even like LiveWire is another one that is insane to me. LiveWire 1, 2, 1, 2 were not that great, but Caleb didn't give up. LiveWire 3 is good. And now he released Flux and Flux had a major controversy. day one and it's somehow going great for him now. So it's like people like it's uh, it's Like these people like motivate me. It's like Well, they aren't afraid of failure They failed in front of everyone and they still kept going and now they are what they are doing is somehow getting Even more successful.
And like, it's something that I've applied to like my open source projects, like, um, artisan UI. wanted to just delete that repo so many [00:55:00] times. I just want to click the delete button. if you check through the git history, it was never even like intended as a shadc and like alternative. It was just a set of components that I built and they were. Ugly components, weren't that great and the DX wasn't that great and I started and then I kept going and I just kept going and I like did a, I pivoted because I saw Shad C and I saw a video by Theo on Shad C and I said, okay, I can try doing that. And I tried, I started and it was difficult and I tried doing it.
I tried like rewriting the styles my own way and. It didn't look that nice. So then I kept going and I kept going and I want, I've literally wanted to like give up on that project multiple times. And now it is a [00:56:00] decent project. Now, like sometimes I look back, I was like, this is, this is insane. This is not what I started.
Like I never expected I get here with the project. It's a bunch of. There are still a bunch of things to still do and a bunch of components to still add, but I would say now it has taught me how to write a UI component like, like there are just some hidden secrets. And I saw Adam talk about some of those things like, Oh, don't do this.
Don't do this. Don't don't add slots. don't add more slots, more slots, more slots is bad. Don't do it. It's like just keep I just see people just keep going or like overcoming fears and it's like it just is it just is like motivating to me even Like yeah, Appeared in that tweet because like I was like, okay Dude is facing his fears.
You're going to the us speaking at your beyond [00:57:00] conf, right? and it's like you um, and now you've started like uh, you've you've said something new i'm like, okay that that is motivating or um m psych ben Who's been he dude literally uploads every time and maybe sometimes his videos get no views and sometimes his videos get A bunch of views i'm like that is that is scary You But it's like, do you know if this would eventually take off and like being consistent and like You don't if this would eventually take off and like keep growing So I see things like that as like really scary like i'm someone that I like consistency I really like like i'm so consistent to the point that I have like, um Clothes and I have like clothes and all that You For depending like for each day and like my schedule is just so um, schedule is just so [00:58:00] Rigid sometimes so it can be flexible, but I I prefer that I know what is coming and I prefer that I know like my classes and I know everything I prefer that I Like can predict and I can prepare for any unwanted circumstance Well, it's like many of these things are people just betting and playing the bet and it's like that is something that I Learned and that is something that inspires me and I also added and for some reason.
I don't know why I don't know. I just I just like don't know why. She just inspires me for some reason. I haven't figured it out completely yet. She just inspired. just unhinged on her own way and I like it. I just like that.
Sam Huckaby: Yeah. She just goes for it.
Marvellous: She just goes for it. She's it's not there is no there is no, um She's not fake.
She's a real person. what I think. She's like, really, she's real. So it's like, it is inspiring to me. [00:59:00] So all these people, Caleb, Nuno, like Nuno literally released a pain carry and it, I don't, I don't think like he built something that he just wanted to build and it somehow took off. It's like, that is, I respect that.
I really respect that. Or Caleb with the flux or like everyone, it's just, it's like, It, uh, Taylor, like, it's just, um, it's really nice to see. It's like these people that, um, like even when the world beats them down, they will try coming back up or when, or these people are like, Caleb could have said, okay, live are probably anytimes, but people are using it, but everyone, literally everyone is like, okay, sends too many requests.
Like I can never be. Used for like real applications, but. didn't give up or someone that, um, another one that is like, uh, that is in my [01:00:00] attention that is in my radar is Simon ham. Do you know who that is?
Sam Huckaby: I don't think they do.
Marvellous: native, he is like, he runs native PHP. So using PHP to create like desktop applications. And it's like, that is, that is something interesting and strange and weird in his.
And I feel like, um, In his mind, he might just think that that is going nowhere, but he still like pours his time, his effort into it. And I respect, like, I just respect that. That is something respectable. I respect people that like grind. I respect people that like can stay consistent with something, even though it's like the world is against them.
Sam Huckaby: Okay. I like that. That was a good like community shout out. You caught, got a lot of people.
Marvellous: keep going.
Sam Huckaby: All right. Well, thanks so much [01:01:00] for coming and chatting with me.
Marvellous: Yeah,
Sam Huckaby: Super late at night.
Marvellous: was awesome. an awesome chat.