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Filmmakers and animators talk career, art, and life!
Hosted by Isaac Gazmararian
Music by Sam Berlin-Sachs
Stay tuned on Instagram @artists_in_motion_pod
And then during the location scout, the director wants, Michael Yates wants to, I want want a little bit more than just tilting the camera. Talk of a street that comes at you like a wave. And I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? It's like, was like a wave. You know?
Patrick:And I was hoping that the sets department is gonna push back, frankly. Our our set super Frank Tai, he's he's amazing. So within four days, he came back with a rig that I can actually animate the sets. You know? And I said, oh, shit.
Patrick:You know? Now I have to do it. Alright.
Isaac:Well, welcome to Artists in Motion. This is our podcast about interviewing film and animation creatives about their career, how they got to where they are, their art, their own, you know, inspiration and process for their work, and their life, you know, what makes them fulfilled and how that's changed over the years. I'm really excited for this first episode to be talking with Patrick Lin. Patrick Isaac. Yeah.
Isaac:Yeah. It's good to see you again. Yes. And Patrick, for context, he's a cinematographer and layout artist at who's been primarily working at Pixar for over twenty years now? Twenty five years?
Patrick:Twenty eight.
Isaac:Twenty eight years. Wow.
Patrick:You can say you can say coming up thirty.
Isaac:Coming up on your thirtieth. Wow. Are you gonna do anything special for your thirtieth? Well,
Patrick:hopefully, I get a tub of free coffee, but
Isaac:Yeah. That's Alright.
Patrick:The chances are slim.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. If you're still working. Yeah. But, yeah, you've had I'll just really quickly say it so you don't have to say it, but you had a a really long illustrious, clear Pixar.
Isaac:I mean, working as a cinematographer or layout lead for The Incredibles, Ratatouille, Up, Inside Out, Toy Story four, most recently, Win or Lose, working as also lead layout artist or in the camera department on dozens of other projects from A Bug's Life, Toy Story two, Monsters University, the shorts, The Rue Umbrella, and Bow, and a lot of others that I'm not mentioning. But, yeah, I'm just curious how for you hearing me read those out, like, how does it feel to to hear your own, you know, credits listed like that? Like, how do you
Patrick:Yeah. There's a there's a lot. I don't know. I mean, it's like you you you just start working on on this project one one project at a time, and time does fly when you're having fun and it's been super fun and it isn't this doesn't feel like twenty eight years that's for sure. Feel like maybe no more than twenty.
Isaac:Twenty years is still a long time.
Patrick:But this is is most projects are fun when you look back. But when you're working on it sometimes it's painful. Looking back is fun, you know, so you'll remember the the good parts.
Isaac:Is there I'm curious. Is there anything unique about, like, Pixar's process that allows the work to at least be fun in in in retrospect or throughout the process? Like, how
Patrick:It's it's kind of a cliche. It's it's the people, really. Because I worked at other places before, and it is not this collaborative. It is not this ego free. You know, it's like everyone is really just trying to make the film better.
Patrick:I've worked at places before that when you try to ask the questions to your colleagues or others they might not want to give you the answer. Know I think it's like because like you the better the better you get you know you become a threat to their job I think You know? So you have to be but what but when I first started at Pixar, I just remember, like, the first week, you know, and someone sent an email saying, hey. How do you do this? And then within minutes, there's, like, 10 email answering that questions.
Patrick:And I think that is that was eye opening for me, you know, as well. You know? I mean, people can be can be collaborative like this. You know? So it really is the people that helps make our film this good, you know, from the top to the bottom.
Patrick:You know, it's like from the directors, they have their own brain trust. You know, they they'll discuss their film. They would they would dissect it. You know, they would they would give really hard notes, but it's not but it's not a personal. Right?
Patrick:I'm just trying to make the project better, they just keep asking these kind of questions. And and in the process, I think it makes the film better. And the same with with my department. You know? It's like we would like us once we have finished building a sequence, we'll all sit down together, and we'll take a look together, and then everyone can can contribute.
Patrick:You know? And and another thing that's different is I've worked at other places before that sometimes you don't see the director that often. Like, right on Jameson Giant Peach, I was the camera assistant, and I worked there for, jeez, like, a whole year. Right? I might seen Henry Stott, like, five times.
Patrick:You know? I don't really feel like I'm working for the director. I just feel like I'm working I was the camera assistant, so I just feel like I was working for the camera operator. So so we when I'm at Pixar, I you know when we have a review you know we are with the director we get notes from the director if I have any because I'm working on the shots I know what is what's the problem is so if if I see something that's not working I can talk directly to the to to the director. So there's there's a direct interactions that just makes you feel like you're working on the film together.
Patrick:You know? So I want to make the film better for I want to achieve the director's vision, you know? And and the best way is, like, talking to the directors directly, you know? And, yeah, all those, I think, helps makes Pixar kinda, like, a special place for me.
Isaac:Yeah. No. That's wonderful. And now take me back beyond that first week there. Like, how did you end up at Pixar?
Isaac:Did you always plan it to be that way? Did you always know you're going in in that animation cinematography?
Patrick:Oh, no. Far from it. You know? I I always like animations, but I just can't really draw that well. I always like film.
Patrick:So when I was so I went to film school, traditional film school. I I actually studied live actions in the Bay Area. And in the Bay Area, it doesn't really have a lot of live action production, so it's kinda hard to find a job. Like, getting into industry was a little bit tough. You know, I did some I, like, did, like, one internship when I was in school.
Patrick:I worked in a Bigfoot movie, which is kinda a second unit Bigfoot movie. I was there I worked there for, like, a for a weekend. And I was excited, but a lot of the shot that I worked on was cut. It wasn't there. It was it was it was a little disappointed.
Patrick:You know? And and, anyway, so that was my first experience. And that was really hard to find a live action job up here. So what what we do have a lot up here in the Bay Area is a special effects company because Lucasfilm is up here. After like a few years I got a job as a camera assistant at this special effects houses that they specialized in doing ride films.
Patrick:So it's like a psych star tour. They were basically filming the film and then you give it to the company. They'll program that. The most important ones that were the one for IMAX. For that particular one, it has a stop motion character in it.
Patrick:So we hired this animator who just came off of Nightmare Before Christmas. So it was my first animation experience. So I was working with him for, like, three, four months on this project, and so got to kinda know how animation works. And afterwards, he said, well, hey. We're making a new film of James and Jan Peach.
Patrick:You wanna come over and help us? This is kinda like a good gateway drugs. Right? So it's kind of half half live actions, half animations. You still use real cameras, real film, shooting the puppets.
Patrick:So and you still use real lights, you know. So it is, something that I'm familiar with and and also it's it's a it's a whole new world too. And then, since since it's a Disney company, they said, hey. This company Pixar is working on a CG film. Right?
Patrick:And we know that. I know Pixar at that time because because of their short films. Because we're all working for Disney, they just finished the army man sequence in the first Toy Story, and they just show it to us. And we were I was blown away. The whole company was blown away.
Patrick:You know, the the detail, how much fun it was. After Jameson Giant Peach came out, it wasn't a very successful movie. The company did a Skellington production, so it kind of dissolved after that. So there was really no no stop motion animation job, you know. And then I was saying I really like like computer animations.
Patrick:I really wanted to see if I can get into it. So I applied to two places. So I applied to Pixar, of course, and I applied to PDI. PDI was mhmm.
Isaac:Sorry. But at this point when you were applying, had you had any experience in computer animation?
Patrick:Oh, no. Yeah. No. Yeah. So but I I thought, hey.
Patrick:Because there's I I kinda like animations, and it seems like something that I can do. So I kinda ask around. So is there any, like, camera equivalent, you know, in the computer animation world? And someone told me, oh yeah, applied for the layout. Okay.
Patrick:I'll apply to layout. So but, you know, I did not get an interview from PDI, but I did get an interview from Pixar. So, and it was a long process. It was like three interviews over over, nine months. It was a long inter interview process.
Patrick:At first, I I actually applied to working on Toy Story two. Back then, it was direct to to video. So I figured, oh, you know, that seems like something is a good good start. You know? And then I didn't get that job.
Patrick:And then but one of the manager who is working on A Bug's Life saw my interview so I went back in for a second interview with with her for Bug's Life and then I went back for a third interview meeting some other, creative from from A Bug's Life. So and and so I end up, like, getting hired, for A Bug's Life. Yeah. So that is how I got into Pixar. So once I got started, you know, it's like they they just they're looking for someone who has more of a traditional film filmmaking background, so I kinda fit the bill.
Patrick:So so it's easy to teach me a computer than rather to teach someone filmmaking. I think that's that's their rationale. I thought it's just gonna be a one one film gig, you know. Yeah. Because that's how the industry work at that time.
Patrick:Right? It's just like you you work on a film. After you're done, you look for another job, you know. So that's how it is. And but how Pixar operates more like a startup.
Patrick:So
Isaac:Okay. So they they keep their family close?
Patrick:Yeah. Because, I mean, it's not easy to train people. At at back then, this is a it's more specialized. And and even right now, because we use a proprietor software, you know, and and it takes time to train up people. It's not that you can just grab anyone from the streets that can do it.
Patrick:You know? So so yeah. So so I've been there ever since.
Isaac:So your your time when you came into Pixar and you're working primarily as a as a layout artist, and then it was Incredibles that was your first
Patrick:It was the first DP. Yeah.
Isaac:First DP. What is the, like, what is the main difference in, you know, your own process or day to day work from a layout artist to a DP?
Patrick:It was it was more like it was more gradual. I didn't go from layout artist to DP. On A Bucks Life, I started as a layout artist. And then within that show, they want to, alleviate the the supervisor a little bit, more day to day meetings. So they're trying to they start to have implement like a sequence lead.
Patrick:So you take the sequence and you will be basically handling all the delegations. Right? So so I started started doing that. And so Bugs Life is my first sequence lead, and then I think they more formalized that position on Torch Story two. So we have four sequence leads because Torch Story two was a really compact schedule.
Patrick:We make make that within ten months, basically, you know, it's like we, we really start get started in January and then the film came out in November. And then next next movie I worked on is, monster inc. The basically the layout layout DP to decided to have one layout lead for the entire show, and he he picked me. There was like a whole year to two years of training, you know, so I would go to a lot of meetings. I was talking to people.
Patrick:So it kind of trained me up in terms of all the basic working of making a CG film. Right? So I have no no more about it. So so that kinda set
Isaac:me up. Yeah. And that training is to not it's beyond just, you know, cinematography skills, but it's actually so you can work with other parts of the pipeline, talk with other team members and team leads and, like because you're because my my understanding is that the cinematographer or the the DOP of, you know, for camera and staging is is you're giving a lot more directives to the artists who are actually laying out the shots, but then you're also the pinpoint of the for other departments to come to to talk more creatively or or align on things. Is that right?
Patrick:Yes. You kind of like because layout is the first step into into the three d environment. You're basically taking the boards and translating that and need to make everything works within that three d environment. So there's a lot of things you need to get ready. Right?
Patrick:So you you need the sets. You need the you need the characters. You need the props. You know? You need you need to know where the light is.
Patrick:You know? So you kinda need to coordinate a lot of things, you know, to get get everything ready so that we can lay that foundation for all the department down downstream. So there's a lot of things to coordinate.
Isaac:Yeah. I'm realizing now it's like we we talk so much about the coordination, but, like, what's your own process within like, typical process within a project for how you approach what language you wanna even, you know, use for the storytelling or references you wanna pull from, you know, beyond before you get into the technical side of
Patrick:it? Yeah. The process sort of evolved. Right? Because, like, when when I first started, you know, we just need to get the shot out.
Patrick:That's that's that's that's the most important thing. And the the funny thing is because the the medium is so new. The first Toy Story, there was really no, like, layout department. You know? The the department sort of, like, formed formed the very end.
Patrick:You know? I mean, you have a few people doing doing the layout, but how they do layout is they just do the t post. They don't really this is to put the character in the scene. There's no it's not really talking about cinematography. You're just basically putting the character in the scene with the t post so the animators can do the posing.
Patrick:Right? And even when I started on a bug's life, the first scene I see that it was completed is still to do the t pose and p and and they were moving the characters around, but there's no blocking whatsoever. I love, action figures. So when I was a kid growing up, I love playing with GI Joe. And and I I I still do.
Patrick:I still bought a lot of hot toys right now. And I love those posable figures. I I I love them. And then when I started playing with the character in the computer it's like god action figure on steroid everything is possible right it is so much fun to actually pose the character and I think a bit more accurate to pose the character so we can frame the shot more properly. So I think, you know, I think it's more spontaneous.
Patrick:I'm just I didn't say that I started it, you know, but I think, you know, we all kinda see that within a few months. I I started, you know, it's like the first few sequence that I started. I think it's kind of spontaneous. Everyone's doing it. And at first it's just very simple posing.
Patrick:And then the editor back then was Lee Unkrich. He was the of course, he was director of Torch Raids three, Coco, and and back then, he was the editor. So how he edit the film, he would ask for more poses. So he'll do more poses and then become more of a natural process. So that's how everything got started.
Patrick:We're not really thinking about cinematography at that that much, I don't think. You know? We're just thinking, okay. The shot, you know, what is the meaning of the shot? What is the purpose of the shot?
Patrick:One thing that is always consistent is always we always treat the camera as very physical. We do never want to do those very CG camera movement. You know, we don't do, like, super quick camera. We don't have the camera go, like, fly the flying impossible camera move. We just try to really use traditional film language to shoot it.
Patrick:So I think that might be the basis of what we do cinematography wise. Even when I started on The Incredibles, there's some structure, I gotta say. It's like in the beginning. So in the beginning is the golden age of the superhero. So the lighting is all very bright.
Patrick:And then the last scene, the sun sets, you know? It's like a sunset for the superhero.
Isaac:And he gets married.
Patrick:And then we get married. Yeah. And then we, and then when he be he's working at the insurance company, we purposefully use a really, really long lens to just compress the space. And then and then once and then when he begin to getting those secret jobs, you know, and then we start to bring some of those dynamic camera back in. But there wasn't really, like, a very detailed plans.
Patrick:You know? It's like, you're you're just shooting it. You know? You know?
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like you're I mean, your work has spanned so many different genres from, like, the action of Incredibles or, like, more intimate sequences and up or, like, trying to contrast different worlds in Inside Out. Like, with with each film, it seems like an evolution in, you know, different ways of approaching storytelling. Do you see your own approach changing much between the films, or do you are you still kind of dealing with the same ideas of of personality and character and conflict?
Patrick:I think the how how I approach it is kind of the same. And my next film after Incredibles was Ratatouille. So so I I and then I was I was a DP on Ratatouille in the beginning. And then I started to think, you know, it's like we can do a little bit more. We can actually plan this out a bit better.
Patrick:And at that time, before Brad Bird took over, the original director was Jan Thikavar. And at that time, the film is really about alienations. Back then, the, the rat colony is kinda like a, it's like a gypsy colony. They've kinda moved from, places to places looking for food. And the idea is that, like, he, Remy, wants to be a chef, and the more he was working to become a chef, more he's alienating his his family and his his origin.
Patrick:So he become more and more human, basically. Right? So so I thought, oh, this is actually a good way to to structure a a camera to his internal struggle. Right? So so we have a device, like, a rat cam and a human cam.
Patrick:Right? This is how I shoot the rats. I shoot it like the gypsy. More handheld, more steady cam. Humans are very stuck up.
Patrick:Know? There's like lock off camera, you know, with a very very mechanical camera movement. So this is how how it was devised. As Remy becomes more and more human, I will change the camera style, you know, based on his internal state, You know? So he he so the camera would, like, more and more becomes human shoot shooting him.
Patrick:Right? So
Isaac:I'm gonna I need to rewatch that so to see this.
Patrick:That was the okay. That was the original plan. That was original plan. Okay. And then, I think Jan couldn't really get the story to work.
Patrick:So, so John, Lesotheir at that time asked Brett Burt to take over the film. Okay. So after Brett took over the film, unfortunately, I did not work very well with Brad. You know? I mean, we have some, disagreement, when we're working on, The Incredibles.
Patrick:So, they took me off of the DP. So I became, like, a lead layout artist. Yeah. And at that time, you know, we also was trying to we have a plan to implement a a lens distortion too. Because back then, just computer animations, the camera is like a pinhole camera.
Patrick:There was no no distortion if it's if it's just too wide of a lens all the straight lines is is looks off you need the distortion make it feel natural because that's what the audience feel like in yarn's version all the rats they're walking like human like bipack By way, when Brad took over, he wants the rats to actually walks like rats, you know, like so with so there was a lot big project to change all the raking for the rats. So whether you take the money out or you they take the money out from the distortions. So the distortion. So the first distortion is on Wally.
Isaac:Okay. Yeah.
Patrick:Yeah. That was my first, time that I was thinking that we can actually shoot the film by having, like, two different opposing camera movement based on the inner struggle of of characters. But it it didn't work out because I I was taken off a project. The next film after the radio two e, I was lucky enough that I got on up. You know?
Patrick:So it was on Up, know, we're looking how do I use camera to support the idea of Up? You know? So I was looking for what what is what is the movie is about. So the the camera is really based on the more like a philosophical struggle of the characters. Right?
Patrick:It's the old versus the new. It's the pessimism versus the optimism. The static versus the dynamic. You can kind of see that in in the production design. It's like the it's the circle versus the square.
Patrick:Russell is round. Carl is square. The balloon is round. The house is square. You know, this is this is this contrast.
Patrick:So the the camera is based on the static versus the dynamic, you know. So in the beginning, everything is kinda calm. Start with lock off, and then there's some camera movement. And then when they after they got married, there's a bunch of very graceful camera movement moving, just lateral or pushing in, tracking. And then once Ellie's death, you know, all the cameras locked off.
Patrick:And also, I'm a big fan of Ozu, so I I did the Ozu for that. From the shot right after the funeral to the the shot before you seen the balloon, for those, like, almost a 50 shots. All those are shot with, like, one lens, a 50 millimeter. I took out the distortions, so everything is straight. Almost every shot, on Carl is, is a down angle looking down on him.
Patrick:So opposite of Ozu. You know? And then, lots of, like, frame in frame. Just trying to trap him. So it means, like, this is his, like, most static, the most trapped, emotionally the lowest.
Patrick:So and then for, like, five minutes, you're watching this one lens, no camera movement, and then boom. You know, when the balloon comes up, I, like, I go super wide lens with the maximum distortions, with the camera tilt, and then a bunch of camera movement when the house lift off. So you kinda feel that. So, yeah, that's that's kinda the idea, you know, it's the this is the static versus the dynamic. I thought it was it works pretty well.
Patrick:I think we can do a little bit more, but I think what what if a kind of plan I have for Up, I think we implemented maybe 80% of the ideas in it. I think that's pretty good.
Isaac:I see. And then also with win or lose particular, that was you when you I feel like you really were grappling with a clear internal external divide in not only, like, a change in how a character might relate or but you're actually transitioning between two different, you know, perspectives on the same reality. I'm curious. Could you talk a little bit more about how you approach that or what were the some of the challenges of dealing with both an inner and outer world?
Patrick:Yeah. I think the difference with win or lose is first, it's a TV series with eight episode. And another different thing about it is, like, with eight main characters. And every one of them has a different struggles. So so it was really hard to find a common thread for them, you know, because I don't want to for every episode, there's a different camera language.
Patrick:You know, that'll be a two not very unified, I think, you know. And besides our our our each episode is so short. It's not like a so that it's not like a forty five hour hour minute episode. Every every every episode is about twenty minutes long.
Isaac:I'm curious between all of the different personalities, like, which was your favorite character to work with in the cinematography?
Patrick:I think it it turns out to be Van and Rochelle's episodes because that first of all, the two episodes were connected. So I think the whole production, it took it was, like, a little over two years of productions. And Rochelle and and Venice in the first year. The first year is a little bit more fun because story wise, it's a little bit more solid. We can we have the entire episode approved, the productions, and we can pick and choose which one to to which scene to work on.
Patrick:And we have a little bit more time to think and play around. If you talk about those transitions, you know, those creative transitions, that two episodes is the most because we have more time to play. And I wanted to do more for Kai and for coach, but we just didn't have time. We were we're down to the wire. And then also I was also losing people to feature films too.
Patrick:So, I mean, with less and less people, and then we still have a lot of work needs to do. So we have less time to play around with those transitions. And then, yeah, those transitions, you know, some are in the boards, but a lot of them are not. You know? It's like we we just saw an opportunity and went to play with it.
Patrick:We need to work with sets to come up with the with the sets that can accommodate those transitions. You know? So everything takes a little bit more time, which we don't have. You know? So it'll be nice to have more time.
Isaac:Yeah. I see. That's so interesting because I did notice with Vanessa and Rochelle, like, episodes, there was a similar, dynamic camera and transition. And I actually made the connection that it was, you know, the mother daughter relationship, you know, in the way that both their powers also allow them to kind of, you know, elevate or move move around. I mean, Rochelle's is more of a personality that she's adopting, but it's it is a feeling of gravity going up and down and, you know, Vanessa at least has the ability to, you know, fly around or snap and use her use her magic to go through
Patrick:the space. The mummy's magic
Isaac:we thought. Yeah. Like, both both of those just felt inherently like you were already in such a dynamic space to to use those more dramatic camera movements.
Patrick:It's Yeah. And I think that's that's when we go, oh, we cannot do all these things. You know? Like, even the end of Rochelle's episode, though, when she was getting chased by chicken calf in the car, you know, with the with the with the street with a wave coming at you. You know?
Patrick:Those are those that is not boarded. When when layout starts, I will usually do a location scout. Kinda like a one frame location scout case to show the the director. Okay. We're gonna start here, and then and I'll step it through frame by frame.
Patrick:And then during the location scout, the director wants Michael Yates wants to I want want a little bit more than just tilting the camera. You know? Just want the work the world really work against Rochelle. So how about it come come come top of a street that comes at you like a wave? And I'm like, what the hell are
Isaac:you talking about? What do mean
Patrick:like a wave? You know? And it's like, it was like a wave. You know? I was like, okay.
Patrick:And I get well, that sounds really hard, and we're in productions. You know? And I was hoping this the sets department is gonna push back, frankly. You know?
Isaac:Yeah. Were you all sitting there together in the meeting? Yeah.
Patrick:We're in the meeting. Yeah. So our our set super supervisor, Frank Tai, he's he's amazing. So within four days, he came back with a rig that I can actually animate the sets.
Isaac:Wow. Woah.
Patrick:You know? And say, oh, shit. You know? Now I have to do it. Like, actually, when when you look when you look back, you know, it's not that many shots.
Patrick:It's only five shots, I think, right, with the with the waves. But when we're doing I think I did maybe, like, 20 shots to editorial, you know, and they cut it down to five.
Isaac:I also wanted to ask more about the collaboration between your department and the lighting department. I know for you kind of in the animation, it's split between lighting and and camera and staging. And, typically, my understanding is that the all the the lighting is done afterward, but there are so many moments here that need such specific lighting or, like, the lighting will change dramatically and have a character be silhouetted onto a field. Like, how did that present its challenges? Or, like, how did that change how you had to collaborate with your the lighting DOB?
Patrick:We're lucky that we have nowadays, we have a little bit more tools to communicate. We have something called layout lights, which is not it's something that we can actually see in a live camera view, such a GL light. So the the basic idea is to not actually doing lighting for us, but it's just to let us know time of day, where where's the key light coming from, what color was the key light, just so that we kind of have an idea. You know? Because if it's if it's the dark sequence, you don't want to be too dark too dark because you're still going to see what's going on in layout before turning the lights off.
Patrick:Right? You know? And and also, another thing that we do differently on win or lose is we render everything as soon as we have a location scout. Our light lighting DP Brian Boy would just, like, throw in some lights, and then we'll start rendering it. You know?
Patrick:And then so during the the entire production of the of any given sequence, let's just say four months, you know, we'll we'll be seeing seeing it quite often, you know, in dailies. There's tons of communications, you know, within that four months, almost on a daily basis, seeing seeing the dailies. You know? And the director comes in two days out of the five days. You know?
Patrick:So we'll talk amongst ourselves, then directors comes in. And sometimes you'll see things broken for the longest time. You know, and you just tell a director, it's still broken. We know that. We'll fix it.
Patrick:You know? So I think it's yeah. It's a different philosophy how we work on Win or Lose two. I mean, we're not chasing perfections, you know? Because, like, because we have a smaller budget.
Patrick:There's always stuff that we can change and fix. But if it's good, you know, we'll we'll final it and let let it move on.
Isaac:Yeah. I was wondering if you wanted to talk about the game night, Warner. For having such a long camera movement, like, was your thought process behind, you know, how to construct this and get the beats right?
Patrick:This is the second longest shot in the series. The longest one is when they're having the pizza party, anyway. That was the longest shot. For this shot, the mandate was to trying to basically give people a preview in episode one, and people will understand exactly what happened. And then hopefully, the payoff is in episode eight when you see it again, it gives you new perspective, basically.
Patrick:That's the idea. Right? Go, okay. I know exactly why people are acting that way. When we first construct the shots, we kinda know that we want to go through the park like that.
Patrick:We know how we know this is how we wanna start. We don't know how we're gonna end, how we're gonna go through it. So, at first time we did it, the camera actually go under the bleacher seeing chicken calf. It was a lot longer. And then the camera actually, will fly through like, it could go through the the fence, and then we'll end up seeing Lori coming in, on the other side.
Patrick:So the shot was a lot longer. The shot was almost like
Isaac:a minute and a half. Why was it, you know, condensed?
Patrick:So we make episode one and episode eight almost at the same time. When we're making episode eight, we realized that we don't have enough resource to render a a show that is longer than, like, a hundred and forty five minutes, I think. Because that was think that was it. And and we're trying to trim the last episode. Yeah.
Patrick:And and the last episode was rare at least five minutes too long. So with this one or being one and a half minutes, you know, the editors say, nope. Nope. Nope. You have thirty seconds.
Patrick:I said thirty seconds? That's impossible. You know? So so it was, like, a long process, and then we just keep trimming it and trimming it, you know, trying to condense it, basically. So we don't go underneath the bleacher.
Patrick:We don't go to Lori. You know, was just trying to really boil down the essence of what we want to show. I think we end up having, like, a forty forty second shot, forty two second shots. I think that was the compromise. Yeah.
Patrick:Like, if you kinda want to understand what what's the difference between the the camera of a perspective world versus the real world, I mean, this is the perfect example because it is seemingly the two shots looks exactly the same, but the camera movement is different because the first episode, we see Laurie's sweaty blob and her back. So it's a perspective shots. So the camera movement is a lot smoother. But in the set in the last episode, this it's not in the back, so it's this handheld. So you can see a difference here.
Patrick:Smooth camera versus a walking camera or handheld camera. We actually use different lenses too. So the first episode is perspective. So it's anamorphic lens. The last episode is not is using spherical lens.
Patrick:So the depth of field is different.
Isaac:Yeah. And did you mention also in SIGGRAPH, there was a difference in the was it the whether it was a nodal or
Patrick:Yeah. The the cameras. Yeah. The the first episode is is nodal. The last one is when it was walking is is offset.
Isaac:Sweet. And could you just briefly explain for someone who might not know what that means, how what what's the difference there?
Patrick:So how what part of camera language of the perspective world versus the real world is the the camera where we put the camera. In real life, you put the camera in the world head so that the the pan and tilt point is at the film plane. That's what called nodal camera. So that when the camera is tilting and panning, you have no parallax. Everything is exactly where it needs to be.
Patrick:You know? When you put the camera on the tripod, the film plane is actually above where the pivot point is. Right? Because you're tilting. So when you tilt down, you know, the camera move forward.
Patrick:Tilt up, the camera move can move backwards. But when you pan, there's extra parallax. You know? So those so those are non nodal camera. For all the real world shots, our camera has offset at the from the camera head so that when you pan and tilt, it's a it's a little bit off, mimicking like the camera is on a tripod.
Isaac:I see. Wow. Mhmm. No. It's so specific.
Isaac:I love that.
Patrick:And Yeah. It's it's kinda subtle, but I think it's, like, it's you just want people to kinda feel the difference instead of, oh, I know exactly what they did. You know? But
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's also an energy difference from the first episode going to the finale where in the finale, you're Mhmm. Dude, you know, you have so much of the context building up into it. So you're, you know, having a bit of an you know, naturally a little bit more of a shaky camera
Patrick:Mhmm.
Isaac:You know, adds to that energy even subconsciously.
Patrick:Yeah. Yeah. It just it just worked out.
Isaac:It's interesting for for me to hear that from even, like, within Pixar, how how much you're, you know, still fighting against the clock on a lot of these larger It's always
Patrick:I I wouldn't say fight. It's a dance.
Isaac:Okay. Yeah.
Patrick:Yeah. It's a dance. You know? It's like, you know, it's like we we got something from from the boards. You know?
Patrick:We expanded it, you know, in layout. We get it back to we get it back to editorial. They kind of pack things back down in animations, and then, like, goes back out a little bit. You know? It's like, yeah.
Patrick:So there's a it's a dance. Yeah.
Isaac:Yeah. For sure. I feel like that you I mean, with Mhmm. You know, managing so many more teams as the cinematographer on all these shows, you've learned that dance quite well, it seems. Yeah.
Patrick:Yeah. But it's like it's a but that's how that's how it goes. You know? It's just like it's it's collaborative. You know?
Patrick:It's not one person say this is it. You know? It's like, given the from the producer, the directors, everyone is super collaborative. And
Isaac:And how do you know when to, like, you know, pull back in a way? Like, if you have, like, an ambition or you're in a meeting and you're talking about something or you're maybe you're going you're dancing with the timeline and you're trying to figure out, you know, what exactly to cut down on.
Patrick:I don't think it is anything, like, a a specific rule. Right? You just, like there might be certain moment, there's certain shot that you're more attached to. Right? It's like, okay.
Patrick:I really like that shot, you know, because they really showcase this moment. And then you would I would work with the editors. I really like that shot. Can we get that shot in? You know?
Patrick:And then the editor say, well, I mean, I didn't put that shot in because of this and this. You know? It doesn't really work. So okay. If I really want that shot, I need to fix the other two shots.
Patrick:It's like this is how we work. And sometimes, that's a good thing about Pixar too. The director always will listen to your suggestions or comments or everyone's suggestions and comments. And they would usually say, okay. That's a that's a good this this I like the idea, but, you know, we couldn't use it because.
Patrick:There's always a reason. You know? It's not they don't just brush you off. I say, no. I don't like it.
Patrick:You know? So I think that's the that's the collaborative spirit of Pixar. You know? It's like everyone wants to contribute and make make things better, and the director will make the decisions and let you know that, oh, this will work or that this doesn't work. And sometimes it becomes a conversation.
Patrick:Right? The director may say, yeah, this doesn't work, you know, because of this, and then you might have another idea. So it becomes a conversation. So I think that's what that's our creative process, you know.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes sense. I I find it's not I'm still I mean, I'm seeing that in my own way with other I've I've co directed a lot of animated shorts, and I've realized that we've we've done it where we're working on very tight timelines, you know, having to, like, complete an animated film in a week.
Isaac:And so there'll be, like, conversations we'll have early on where we realize, okay. We see it differently, And then we'll just be, like, naturally through the process of the of of collaborating and making the film, we'll be like, okay. Let's put a pin on this, and then we'll, you know, come back to it. And over time, there will be, like, a couple of those things we'll come back to, we'll just realize, like, actually, you know, I mean, I don't feel as passionately about this as you do. You're Yeah.
Isaac:You're Yeah. You're seeing something in this that I don't
Patrick:Exactly. You know, it's like my general rules are, like, if I something I'm really passionate about, you know, I will I will say, okay. We we should really do this. And they say, nah. You know?
Patrick:So I like this better, you know, because of this. Okay. Those and if if I see it again, you'll I'll keep I'll keep suggesting it. You know? I may I may say it, two if I really believe it, I may say it three times.
Patrick:In fact, by the time I say it three times, if you still don't don't think that's a good idea, it's okay. I'll let go. It's fine. You know, this is not I'm not I'm trying to help the director mix their movie. So I I, of course, I want them to be comfortable in their decisions.
Patrick:I wish shouldn't push something that I think is right. But then guess what? I could be wrong too.
Isaac:Yeah. I could be wrong
Patrick:too, you know, which is a very good possibility. You know? So it's like, you know, this is what I think. Say it three times, and if they they don't take it, great. Okay.
Patrick:You know? Moving on.
Isaac:It's all about keeping keeping step with the dance.
Patrick:Yeah. Exactly.
Isaac:Yeah. Mhmm. And I guess now, like, zooming out a bit on your whole Pixar career. I'm curious in your own sense, what makes certain projects more enjoyable or more fulfilling than others? How has your own definition of fulfillment within a project or within your creative life evolved over time?
Patrick:Fulfillment.
Isaac:Just a quick casual question. You know? I
Patrick:think the fulfillment is this I think it's like working on a project that you are proud of, that is a film that you like to see, and you will use a film that you would see over and over again because you love it. You know? I think that is the the goal. I love all the films that I worked on. I would watch it again, except for The Incredibles.
Patrick:I still can't watch it. The Incredibles was a hard film to make, and it was my first one. You know? There are some things that I would do different, especially the openings scenes. Just a lot of very to to some of the staging.
Patrick:But, yeah, I think the fulfillment really comes from seeing looking back at the at the movie. You'll probably show your show your kids. You're proud to show show your family.
Isaac:I feel like also within your own, you know, journey at Pixar, you brought in so many more tools and realistic whether it be, like, lenses or camera setups. Now that I think we're kind of technologically reaching this point where, you know, we we can pretty much technically match the the real life camera. Like like, what excites you when you're looking forward into, like, how either the technology or the language might develop.
Patrick:Just this is just more like a production process. You know? I I do like, VR. I wish we can do more of the explorations in VR so that we can have the directors and two DPs and the production designers all standing in this virtual space and making changes, you know, that that would be cool. That's something that I wanted to do, like, since Toy Story four.
Patrick:And, you know, I was like, we just never really got it to a point that is, like, production friendly. You know? I think that would be good. I'm excited about what we can do with lenses. This way, I think we can get to a point that we can mimic a lot of different lenses.
Patrick:But the cool thing is because it's the computer, we can actually make our lens. If I if you if I like the distortion from this lens, the breathing in this lens, I like the bokeh in this lens, and I like lens flare in this one, we we can actually build our own. And it's more like season to taste. We can more season to taste. That might be something that might be fun to do.
Patrick:You know? Because, like, lately, you see a lot of film that is shot with the the Petzfeldt lens, you know, with a with a swirly bokeh. Yeah. Well, I mean, we we can maybe build a build a lens that is anamorphic with a with a swirly bokeh. I mean, we can do that.
Patrick:And what that look like? Since it's in the computer, I can morph from one lens to another in one shot. So if if there's a specific story point I want to hit, you know, that I need I need something changed, I I can't do stuff like that. What we have been doing in at Pixar, at least in the in the layout department, is always okay. This is what the real camera can do, you know, and and we just want everything to we don't wanna do anything that's too computer y.
Patrick:But I think we could embrace the computer a little bit more, you know, so we can do something a little bit special. But as as long as it's not distracting, you know. It goes back to, you know, you want the visual to support the story. What what what was the story needs? You know?
Patrick:Why do you have this particular lens? Why do you have this particular bokeh? Why do you have the particular camera movement? Everything is to mean something. It goes back to the meaning.
Patrick:Right? You see, you have to give give your shots meaning because meaning makes the film better.
Isaac:Are there any particular, like, use cases you see for, like, machine learning or, like, tools within the layout or cinematography of films that you think will be you know, might be adapted more more quickly? Like, does that or how how do you see that really changing things in in the in Pixar's production process?
Patrick:I'm sure there are places we can use it. Maybe we can use AI to analyze something. Right? You know, it's like, okay. So I really like just say, I really like the Wes Anderson look.
Patrick:You know? So how do I make this frame looks more like Wes Anderson? You know? You know? What lens what lens what where's the perspective?
Patrick:You know? Like like, stuff like that. You know? Like, it might help me analyze something. But in terms of productions, I don't think we can actually use it.
Patrick:But, you know, but there's stuff stuff like stop gap. Like, stuff that is it's not gonna be final pixel, but stuff to, like, get me moving forward might be nice. You know? It's like, okay. So I can ask.
Patrick:Then can you give me a three d model of a hammer? And then once I have it, I just I have something I can use instead of me building it out of prints. You know? I mean, those are those are nice things that can get me going quicker. I mean, it's just something temporary I can use to get my shots out.
Patrick:That that might be nice. Yeah. But, I mean, we have been using machine learning to do denoising for, like, a few years now. You know? So so that's get our render out faster.
Isaac:No. I remember you talked about how, like, traditionally for animation, you do you do was it camera action lights?
Patrick:But Yeah. More and Yeah.
Isaac:Yeah. But more and more, it's like the the camera and the lights are being brought closer together, like, through more real time technologies. And I could see that at least being potentially if there's, you know, really, you know, much more advanced denoising systems or something, you know, even beyond that that can approximate light better to, like, at least to, like, fully bring together a real time vinyl production quality.
Patrick:That that is, of course, is still the the the holy grail. It's like it's real time rendering. Those all can see the see the lights in Preston in our programs. That'll be ideal. You know?
Patrick:But anything that we have to render, it just takes it just wouldn't work for us, you know, just because, like, layout works so fast, and we built so many shots. I think besides the story or art department, layout throw away the most work. Right? Because we would build, you know I think our shooting ratio is like sometimes, you know, four to five to one. You know?
Patrick:For would not lose has, 2,800 shots, and I think we deliver, like, 11,000 shots to total to to editorial.
Isaac:Wow. Wow. Mhmm. Wait. So when you say your layout ratio is four to five to one, what what are what are each of those numbers, man?
Patrick:Like, for four to five, it's like you you would shoot four to five shots, and then you'll cut them to one shot. Right? That's the the shooting ratio. Right? So it's kinda like yeah.
Patrick:So 11,000 shots that we actually delivered to editorial and cut down to 28 2,800 shots. Yeah. So so we do a lot of experiment. We we do shots and then got thrown away. So we do throw away a lot of our work just so the other department doesn't have to.
Patrick:You know? Because once once get to animation, it gets a lot more expensive. Animation is to exactly how long the shot is. This is the shot. This is the angle, and this is where the character start.
Patrick:This is where the character ends, and we don't wanna do anything extra because animations is is inherently expensive. Yeah. But this is also, like, how only Pixar works. I think not a whole lot not many studio works like we do. A lot of studio would just like I think they would just build the boards and then iterate from there.
Patrick:You know? But we kind of do it differently. We we shot we shoot it like live actions. You know? We shoot it by by coverage.
Patrick:You know? So we we don't just do this 20 frame that is in the board, you know. We actually shoot the whole beat, you know, from all different angles, and then the editor will cut it like live actions. Mhmm. I think that's also make makes like a Pixar cinematography a little bit more different than than other studios.
Patrick:Mhmm.
Isaac:I see. Because you think there's more experimentation, like, within
Patrick:Experimentations and it's more more fluid. It's more like live action approach, basically. It's I don't think it's the cheapest way to do it, but I think it's a it's a good way.
Isaac:It'll be cool to see how how VR might change that as you really get to experiment more more more hands on with actual virtual cameras and going through the scene.
Patrick:I have such high hopes when Apple Vision comes out, know, but still haven't really seen much improvement.
Isaac:Sweet. Well then I think the very last question, kind of going more into actual art and inspiration, what have been like two or three pieces of film or animation that you've seen recently that you feel like are underrated or underappreciated?
Patrick:Nothing comes to mind as underrated. I mean, I I just finished watching Endor, and I love it. And it's everyone loves it, so it's not underrated at all.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. So
Patrick:yeah. But I I do I I do like Japanese cinema a lot. You know? I mean, say, when I'm working, at least for inspiration anyway, things that I look at for for reference. You know?
Patrick:I do I do like Ozu for one. I do like Kurosawa a lot, know, so I do go back to those films, you know, for inspirations. For Kurosawa, of course, and low IKU to live. It's great. That that one IKU is especially inspire up a lot.
Isaac:Oh. Yeah. I could see that now. Okay.
Patrick:Yeah. And of course, yeah. Seven Samurai. Yeah. Yojinbo.
Patrick:Yeah. Are you David? Yeah. Hidden Hidden Fortress. Yeah.
Patrick:Tons of those, you know? So all those are great movies, you know? Yeah. I've been watching a lot of weird stuff lately, so
Isaac:Really? How so? Like, what?
Patrick:Well, my daughter always turned me on to some bad movies that I should see. You know, I think that's our thing. You know, it's like a she just recommended a film to me. It's called The Invisible Raptor. Is is it as
Isaac:the title suggests about an invisible raptor?
Patrick:It it it is. It is this use saw it's, campy, funny movies. That is something that I I when I was a kid, I love love to watch those those films.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. For me in in high school, I I always come back to Ferris Bueller's Day Off as being a inspirational movie that is just fun, and it's just about, like, a high schooler. It was written in two weeks and about a high schooler who just wants to take the day off and have an adventure in in the city. But good stuff.
Isaac:Well, I
Patrick:know we're we're a little
Isaac:bit over an hour and a half here. Thank you for, you know, being on this first episode here. I'm excited to It's my honor to be your first guest. Thank you very much. And, yeah, I hope to see you again soon in person.
Patrick:Yes, for sure.
Isaac:And for podcast listeners, if you want to like, comment, subscribe, all of that stuff, feel free to leave a, a comment for questions or types of questions you want me to ask in the in the future or any feedback and
Patrick:all of that. And, yeah,
Isaac:thanks for listening.