Pak-Sun Ting | VoteeAI: If we don't tackle this, capitalism will divide us

Summary

Pak-Sun Ting, founder of Votee, about the challenges and opportunities in AI, particularly for low-resource languages. Pak shares his journey from a stable banking career to entrepreneurship, discussing the importance of partnerships, and understanding the peculiarities of building a startup in Hong Kong. The conversation goes into the significance of localised language models, the fundraising landscape, and the future of technology in bridging cultural divides.

Takeaways

Votee aims to revolutionise AI adoption in Asia and Africa.
There is a significant digital divide in access to AI tools.
Pak Ting left a comfortable banking job driven by idealism and innovation.
Entrepreneurs must know when to pivot or quit.
Hong Kong's startup ecosystem faces unique challenges due to high costs.
Localised language models are crucial for effective communication.
Partnerships are essential for startup success in the current landscape.
The future of AI holds both opportunities and challenges.
Cultural preservation is a key aspect of Votee's mission.
Success in entrepreneurship is defined by impact and revenue.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Pitch
01:06 Revolutionizing Enterprise AI Adoption
03:14 Leaving a Comfortable Job to Become an Entrepreneur
05:49 The Mindset of Founders and the Notion of Failure
10:05 Knowing When to Quit or Pivot
10:50 Startup Landscape in Asia
16:56 The Importance of Language Models for Low Resource Languages
20:35 Advantages of Training Language Models for Specific Languages
24:49 Potential Consolidation in the AI Space
29:13 Fundraising Success and Revenue Generation
32:23 Advice for Early Stage Startups
39:34 The Future Outlook: Innovation and Positive Change

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• (00:00) - The pitch
• (01:06) - Revolutionizing Enterprise AI Adoption
• (03:14) - Leaving a Comfortable Job to Become an Entrepreneur
• (05:49) - The Mindset of Founders and the Notion of Failure
• (10:05) - Knowing When to Quit or Pivot
• (10:50) - Startup Landscape in Asia
• (16:56) - The Importance of Language Models for Low Resource Languages
• (20:35) - Advantages of Training Language Models for Specific Languages
• (24:49) - Potential Consolidation in the AI Space
• (29:13) - Fundraising Success and Revenue Generation
• (32:23) - Advice for Early Stage Startups
• (39:34) - The Future Outlook: Innovation and Positive Change

Creators & Guests

Host

Jonathan Nguyen

I help founders and VCs of biotech and tech startups commercialise.

What is Unsensible - The Asian Startup Podcast?

BRAVE SOULS WANTED. 
Failure almost certain. Attempting is unwise. 
Far east adventure. Success is changing the world. 

Join us on the Unsensible podcast where we talk to the Asian startups and their ecosystem partners who are intent on changing the world. 

Jonathan Nguyen: Welcome back to
another episode of the

Unsensible Podcast, where we
speak to the lunatics who defy

their Asian parents to go on to
become entrepreneurs instead of

doctors.

And today's unsensible lunatic
is none other than Pak Ting, who

has a startup called Votiai Pak
.

How are you and glad to have
you on the show.

Pak-Sun Ting: Yeah, I'm good.

Thanks for inviting me to the
show.

I'm excited.

Jonathan Nguyen: Well, I'm not
going to do a long intro because

I know you're in the midst of
fundraising, so I'm just going

to throw it to you to pitch and
your 30 seconds starts right now

.

Pak-Sun Ting: Yeah, so I'm
building.

What we're building is we're
looking to revolutionize

enterprise AI adoption for Asia
and Africa.

So essentially what that means
is that if you look at sort of

the big large language models,
what they tackle is English or

Mandarin, but there's over 6,000
languages.

There's a big digital divide.

We call it the AI haves and the
AI have-nots.

So we're looking to provide
that with both the base model

for low resource languages, and
then we start to build

applications on top of that to
enable this digital enablement

or AI enablement, into places
that are kind of behind this

whole curve, AI curve.

Jonathan Nguyen: Amazing.

So what happens if you succeed,
If it all goes well?

What are the broader
implications for this?

Pak-Sun Ting: Well, I think
maybe kind of reverse that

question.

If we don't succeed, or if we
don't tackle this problem,

what's going to happen is that
you're going to have sort of the

capitalism of the digital world
.

You'll have people with a lot
of access to productivity tools

so that they can just focus on
learning, understanding,

creating, and then you have the
space which is sort of unlit.

There's no AI tools.

They're still focusing on
ensuring that paperwork is being

done in a proper way, and so on
and so forth.

So if you kind of look at that
picture, that's 10% versus 90%

of the world.

And if I answer your question,
the original question what would

happen is you'll have less of a
gap.

You know there's the UNDP.

They have this thing about the
digital divide and how this gap

requires a bridge.

So companies like us, we see
this as an opportunity, we see

this as big impact, and so if we
do this well, in five years

then I think the world would be
a lot more connected.

Culture preservation is on the
table as well.

Identity, you know, languages
that could be lost can now be

saved.

So I see sort of the again,
people who speak low resource

languages.

Their culture could be uploaded
onto the grid per se.

Jonathan Nguyen: That's awesome.

So we're going to go deeper
into this in a second, but I

want to understand why did you,
from what I understand of your

background, you left a very
comfortable banking job.

Yeah, what made you do that, to
go and do this?

Pak-Sun Ting: yeah.

So I get a lot of that,
especially when I was about to

get married, you know, with my
in-laws, you know, on a

day-to-day basis, my parents, my
mom.

I think it's a myriad of
factors that kind of pushed me

into this.

The first is idealism.

So I think that there's three
things that can change the this.

The first is idealism.

So I think that there's three
things that can change the world

.

The first is capitalism, the
second is innovation and the

third is regulation.

So this is sort of my second
chapter of my life, if you will.

Number two is I thought I can,
I thought it was easy.

I think a lot of founders who
kind of go into this believe

that they have this superpower,
and I was one of those

knuckleheads thinking I could do
that.

I went in thinking that my
banking experience will well

equip me for anything that's to
come.

So that was the second reason.

The third reason is going,
which goes back to the first

reason is you really see that
there is a need for further

innovation.

You feel that your innovation
can be, because it's your own

baby, you can control it and
therefore you can make sort of

the best impact you can, and I
think that was a lot of that as

well.

So those three things, coupled
with, you know, meeting the

right co-founder, I think helped
a lot for me to kind of take

that step.

Jonathan Nguyen: Yeah, we've
spoken a few times now, and

every time we speak, I'm
reminded that you started a

company and a very young family
at around about the same time,

correct, um?

Pak-Sun Ting: yeah, so I I guess
the the other sort of big

factor is my wife was supportive
so I couldn't leave that one

out, but yeah, so she was very
supportive and that allowed me

to kind of do this as well.

Jonathan Nguyen: And you
mentioned.

You know there's always.

See, I always think founders
are delusional, myself included.

You have to have some element
of like well, I'm going to defy

the odds like you know, the 90%
failure rate and everything else

.

Going to defy the odds like you
know, the 90% failure rate and

everything else, and I can fly
close to the sun.

I get a sense from a lot of
founders that also failure is

not an option.

What do you think about that
statement?

Pak-Sun Ting: I think it's
dangerous in certain contexts.

I know people who have
mortgaged their houses.

In certain contexts, I know
people who have mortgaged their

houses young families as well
quit their jobs to do something

that they believed they could
and they took that statement too

, took it really seriously, and
they continued doing that and

jeopardizing a lot of things.

I think that's part of it.

I believe it.

I believe that when you go in,
there's a saying in Chinese the

general goes into battle, cuts
off his boat so that there's no

turn.

So you kind of have to have
that mindset to go in and.

I think you, you have to have
that mindset, brother, but you

can't have that consistently,
especially when, in the face of

youeconomics family situation,
you have to pivot, and sometimes

pivot means going back to the
corporate world.

So I believe in that statement
and you have to have it, but you

can't stick with it for too
long.

Jonathan Nguyen: But how do you
know when to quit or pivot?

Like I spoke to Justin from
Gents Technologies and he was

saying that you know, when he at
one point, although he had all

this government funding it took
a long time for it to come

through and at one point he
looked at all of his bank

accounts and he had 300 Hongong
kong dollars in there and he

just, you know, gritted his
teeth and like knuckled in, like

at what point do you say I'm
gonna pull the ripcord?

Pak-Sun Ting: yeah, it's a good
question and there's no, there's

no rule of thumb and there's no
sort of um metric, that that

you kind of have to look at to
see when you should quit.

For me, for some people it's
bank account, for some people

it's their families, for some
people it's their health.

I think, for me my sort of red
lines, or sort of what you call

pillars.

If they get knocked down, I'm
out.

You know, and this includes,
you know, family for sure, right

.

Number two is, you know your
co-founders, right.

So having a very good
co-founder also kind of, you

know, putting that sort of same
persistence, um, and if he quits

, you know, I think that's a big
sign and I think, uh, third,

economics is obviously, you know
, one big thing that you know

dictates both your family's
lifestyle, your own lifestyle,

your own health, health is
another one.

So I think if you take all four
, sometimes your health health

is okay and co-founder is good,
but your family is kind of

telling you to kind of stop.

Do you stop then?

So I think it's just a
combination of things and if

they're all sort of kind of
healthy, healthy sort of levels,

it's okay to continue to run
with it.

Everyone's different.

Some people don't have families
, some people don't have

co-founders, so what kind of
levers do you look at?

Some people don't have families
, some people don't have

co-founders, so so what kind of
levers you look at?

Some people don't care about
their lifestyle.

So I think you know, then you
have to kind of look at external

uh signals, like you know, what
are people saying about their

business?

Are people using it?

Is funding coming in?

So I think in your example of
gents if it was gents, you know,

maybe he had.

Maybe he had no money in the
bank account, but he was certain

he was going to get that
paycheck and VCs were backing

him.

Or if it wasn't, maybe his wife
is backing him.

So who knows?

I think everyone's different,
but those are my sort of pillars

, if you will, for me to kind of
continue fighting the

entrepreneur journey.

The good fight, yeah, good
fight.

Jonathan Nguyen: So I mean on
that note, I think there is a

what I've noticed amongst the
founders here in APAC a lot of

them are you know.

The Silicon Valley story is
that you know you drop out of

university and then go and do
this startup and suddenly become

an unicorn.

It's certainly the mythology.

It's certainly not the truth.

In most cases In Asia.

What I've noticed is that
founders are a little bit older.

There may be career changes.

Maybe they've had a career and
then have spotted an opportunity

.

In your case it certainly seems
like the case.

Is that what your read is as
well?

Pak-Sun Ting: You must come
across a lot.

Yeah, I have this, talk a lot
with people, with regulators,

with VCs, with founders
themselves as well, and I think

the common denominator is that
it's very expensive in Hong Kong

to start something.

So typically people I used to
work in banking and with my

savings I was able to kind of
come out and bootstrap you know

the first half of the game.

So I could do that here If I
was a startup vendor in Hong

Kong.

The other thing that's lacking
is the risk capital for seed,

stage and pre-a companies.

So that's another sort of sort
of I guess thing that is missing

in Hong Kong.

I'm not sure for Asia, but I
think definitely for Hong Kong,

and so when you're a youngster,
I mentor a young in as well.

He he's 19 and living conditions
aren't the best.

He's a smart kid, doesn't have
access to capital, has dreams,

but there's no sort of
foundation or there's no

infrastructure for people to
kind of get funding for early

stage ideas, whereas in the US,
you know, yc is a big thing and

there's all these seed stage
companies or seed stage VCs.

So I think that helps a lot.

And again, I think the other
pain point again is just how

expensive it is in Hong Kong.

Jonathan Nguyen: Yeah, it's
interesting, you say that just

how expensive it is in Hong Kong
.

Yeah, it's interesting you say
that A friend of mine used to

work in a family office for,
let's say, one of the biggest

family offices in Hong Kong and
her perspective, having worked

there for a long time, is that
in Hong Kong, certainly, the

idea of investing in a startup
is getting someone to get you an

allocation of ByteDance.

It's not so much early stage.

Is that your read as well?

Having just gone through the
rounds.

Pak-Sun Ting: Yeah, 100%.

I think if you kind of look at
people, sort of gatekeepers or

sort of what they call second
generation, third generation

they've made their money through
property.

They've made their money
through sort of the big leagues

stocks, bonds maybe but in
startups there's not a lot.

How many startups can someone
name?

Name?

How many startups are based in
hong kong that are actually

global?

There's not a lot, and I think
that's not just because of the

seed stage missing, and it's not
because the parents in hong

kong are a little bit more
practical in some sense.

Uh, I think the other big thing,
though, is, you know, hong kong

has a very captive 7 million
audience.

So when you want to grow this
into a sort of a global thing,

it's not easy, and so you you do
a very successful start in Hong

Kong, your markets capped just
because of the nature of Hong

Kong being the size of 7-8
million people.

You can't just kind of take
Hong Kong's model and say, hey,

we're going to do that exact
same thing in ASEAN or China,

because they have very different
behaviors.

So we're kind of left with this
thing where you're capped,

can't really scale, can't really
just say I want to do other

markets because I've done it in
Hong Kong and we're successful.

I think there's that as well,
because I've done it in Hong

Kong and we're successful.

Jonathan Nguyen: I think there's
that as well.

I think it's going to be a
general Asia problem and I think

we're going to get to this in
just a second.

Sure Is that you know if you're
a successful Vietnamese company

.

So I've talked to a lot of
Vietnamese startups recently and

their worldview is that, you
know, ho Chi Minh and Hanoi are

two separate markets and their
total addressable markets that

I've seen are like $30 million.

They don't see a world outside
of Vietnam.

Okay, even though they have a
population of 80, 90 million

people here.

And I think it's the same.

If you're an Indonesian company
, how do you escape Bahasa,

especially if you're software
right?

Pak-Sun Ting: There's very few
Asia pan-Asia success stories,

aside from I guess Grab,
lalamove, gogo, all kind, all

vehicle and transport logistics
related type of things yeah, if

people in Vietnam see Ho Chi
Minh as Ho Chi Minh and Hanoi as

Hanoi, and they find that it's
hard to scale towards those

cities north or south, imagine
Hong Kong.

It's even worse so if they have
thatong right, yeah, it's even.

It's even worse so.

I if, if they have that problem
yeah, you know it's, it's uh,

they don't know, but you know,
that kind of puts hong kong even

at a sort of a back foot.

You know, because hong kong is
hong kong is hong kong.

We developed the first
cantonese large language model

just for hong kong, just because
it's so different.

The culture is very different.

The way they speak is different
than people who speak in

Shenzhen.

They speak Cantonese as well,
but the lingo is different.

So Hong Kong is just a unique
place.

It's an awesome place, but it
also limits somewhat the market

as well.

I shouldn't be saying that,
because maybe investors are

listening to that as well but
there's that for sure.

Jonathan Nguyen: So actually
that's a good segue, because my

next question for you is it
seems to be this trend in tech

that Silicon Valley is this
heart of innovation.

Everyone thinks, if you made it
in Silicon Valley, you made it,

but that's a very Silicon
Valley-centric view of the world

.

Right In the last, like tech
evolution that everyone is

probably familiar with is
probably the social media

evolution.

And, yes, there are a lot of
big platforms that came and went

.

Some are still around, like
Meta, but they're far from being

truly global.

So in asia we have like wechat.

It's enormous for china.

In japan and thailand they use
line.

In korea, the cow.

Yeah, you've come up with a
cantonese llm and your objective

is now to look at other low
population languages, low

resource languages, rather Low
resource languages, right?

So just to kind of Tell us a
bit more about that.

Pak-Sun Ting: Sure, just to
quickly define so, low resource

essentially means that there's
not enough data online to train

a language, right?

So, for example, if you look at
Cantonese, there's over 80

million people that speak
Cantonese, but there's not

enough data online to train that
.

You look into African languages
like Chihuahua it's super low

resource.

It's only spoken in a few
countries.

So you have these places where
it's going to be.

You know, low resource, uh, not
necessarily low population.

Uh, if you look at, uh,
indonesia, there's apparently

700 different languages in
daleks in indonesia itself, big

one being bahasa, 210 million
people who speak it.

But that's kind of considered
low resource as well.

So so that, well, so that's
where we see the opportunity.

When we did Cantonese, it's
native to us, we have the data

sets, we have a market research,
we have a big data platform,

social listing and so on and so
forth, so we were able to do

that and train that right away.

For Indonesia, we also have the
same sort of platform, we also

have the same sort of data sets,
because we do market research

out of Indonesia, for instance,
and so we have a lot of data

sets and we're looking to kind
of train that as well.

So we look at multiple
benchmarks.

If it's, for example, a low
resource language that's spoken

with by 100,000 people, now
that's hard right, so we won't

go into that market.

We might do it for impact
reasons or for heritage reasons

or cultural preservation reasons
, but not for economics.

We look at the development of
technology in that community.

So, for example, if nobody
actually uses digital tools,

then building an LLM for that
country or for that language

doesn't really work.

So we have to look at the tech
community.

Then we also look at
partnerships.

Right, do we have good partners
?

We're not going to go in, you
know, openai or Google or Amazon

or the big guys.

You know they don't even go
into a place by themselves.

So, as a startup, we have to
look at partnerships.

So those are generally the
three things that we kind of

look at.

We also look at GDP per capita.

Now, if it's a very below
$1,000 US, that's also very hard

for for what you would call it
for LMS to be built and then

therefore to be profitable.

So those are the four things
three or four things that we

look at and I think being in
Asia.

There's over 2,000 languages.

I think there's 2,500 languages
plus.

There's lots to pick.

We're still going to perfect
Cantonese first.

We're definitely going to look
at different languages in

Southeast Asia and then also in
Africa as well.

Jonathan Nguyen: So tell us.

We get LPs listening.

Sometimes they're not the
deepest.

They have an interest, but
they're not the deepest in the

AI space.

What is the advantage of
training an LLM completely on

Cantonese, and how would it
differ from someone deploying a

model from OpenAI?

Pak-Sun Ting: So if you look at
OpenAI, you know let's just say,

100% of their text I think it's
somewhere between 50% to 55% is

based on English, 10% is based
on Mandarin.

Now, mandarin, chinese,
Cantonese they're somewhat

fungible in some sense.

So when you take OpenAI, for
instance, and then you translate

it back to Cantonese or
different languages, some

estimates have put it that the
accuracy rate is below 60%.

So that's not acceptable.

It's not acceptable not just by
consumer level, but definitely

by governments, banks,
corporates and so on and so

forth.

Cantonese is very much a spoken
language, right, so I would say

things in a certain way, but
when I type it's also a very

different way.

So then you go why do you need
a Cantonese LLM?

Then you know why does it need
to understand spoken language?

Because if you look at LLMs,
you know.

I really, truly believe that
this is the next sort of

building block that changes the
way we do things.

Call centers, for example.

Let's say, if you have virtual
receptionist, virtual agents,

you're not going to talk to a
virtual agent, but then it talks

to you as if they're reading a
textbook.

You want them to talk to you as
if you're talking to a person

and vice versa the machine or
the virtual receptionist needs

to understand your spoken
Cantonese.

So the next step for a large
language model is large

multimodal model.

So it's multimodality you can
see, you can listen, and so

that's where Cantonese as a LLM
becomes very, very useful and

it's not far in the future.

We're building POCs for that.

As we speak, you'll see it in
chatbots, for example.

You know you talk to, let's say
, cathay Pacific, or let's say

you talk to a bank, you're
talking to an AI, but do you

want the AI to really understand
natural language?

Yeah, of course.

So that's where LLMs come in
and again, this is also sort of

the building blocks for large
multimodal models LLMs, so very

useful.

Hong Kong's GDP is 93% service
sector, so GPT is good for

services.

So if you look at Hong Kong's
GDP let's just call it 400

billion US dollars or 500
billion US dollars 90% of that

can be affected by a large
language model for that language

, for that localized language.

So a lot of use cases.

I think it's easily $100
billion TAM in Hong Kong, so big

enough for us.

And obviously we have a
blueprint, a roadmap towards

different languages as well, and
so I think, again, by building

this and having the know-how, we
can just kind of take what

we've built in Hong Kong and
kind of change language, change

the settings, change a little
bit of fine-tuning, apply it to

baseball that fits them and boom
, you have another market Highly

scalable.

Jonathan Nguyen: Do you think
then we're going to get some

fragmentation, because in Asia
we have, as you you said, some

2,000 odd languages already?

Do you think there will be more
startups like you trying to

scale out at the same time to do
that?

You know, same task, you know.

Is it a case that maybe there
has to be so many you know

specialists to do this?

Or do you think at some point,
like with everything, there'll

be some kind of consolidation?

Pak-Sun Ting: I think well, one.

I would hope that more people
come out to do this.

You know it's not a one votey
startup thing that we can

accomplish.

You know there's the moore's
law right.

So, as by you know, it's going
to be exponentially cheaper for

you to build or train large
language models, and hopefully

that will invite more people to
come in as well.

So would I see some sort of
consolidation?

Of course, I think if you kind
of look at let's say the

yesteryears, where there's no AI
, there's no sort of that

fragmentation exists.

It's a legacy thing.

We've worked with it, we've
worked around it.

Now there's tools for us to
kind of translate and quickly

understand what they're saying,
culture and all that kind of

stuff.

So there's more communication
in that sense.

So I think with every
consolidation, I think I, if you

kind of put the large language
model, let's say for Myanmar or

let's say for Cantonese, add a
translation tool between that.

In that sense we would kind of
converge in terms of bringing

cultures online, understanding
more of what people think.

So in that sense there's some
sort of consolidation.

I think models can now merge
with different models as long as

it's the same architecture.

Now merge with different models
as long as it's the same

architecture, so you can easily
merge these models and I could

talk to you or I could talk to
your Vietnamese colleague, for

example, and in real time, with
very low latency, understand

what he's talking about and
crack the same jokes and, you

know, laugh together.

I could see that happening.

In that sense there's some sort
of consolidation.

But I think, I think for that
to happen again is going to be a

fear, at least a couple of
years worth of dedication of

understanding data sorry in
terms of data annotation for low

resource, language building it,
training and so and so forth.

But I do see that kind of
converging in some sense, but

not really consolidating, as
like one guy takes all and so on

and so forth.

Jonathan Nguyen: I mean, do you
think, if you kind of achieved

what you set out to achieve
somewhat, do you think one of

the big players like OpenAI or
Google will come and say listen,

we want your IP, we want your
tech, we're just going to

acquire you.

Pak-Sun Ting: Yeah, I think
there's definitely that sort of

you know there's a Google
project called the Moonshot 1000

Languages, and what they want
to do is they want to also help

the 1000 languages, the next
1000 languages.

We're doing the exact same
thing, not exactly 1,000

languages, we're going to do 10
next year, and so we do see that

what we're building is useful
and therefore, by being useful,

there's value.

And if that means acquisition,
does that mean anything else?

That's definitely on the table.

That's not what we really think
about.

We just want to think about the
next pain point in languages

and we want to see can this be
done, can we do it?

And then we take that on rather
than kind of you know, I think

Google, strategically, might go
into Indonesia and therefore

let's do Indonesia so I think.

But we also kind of operate in
the same sort of philosophies.

You know, is it hard to do?

Can you have partnerships and
so on and so forth.

In that sense there's
commonality as well and that

could lead to partnerships.

We talk with Amazon.

For example, amazon's partnered
with us to build the Cantonese

large language model.

We'll be in Vegas at the
reInvent events in December.

And before Amazon we spoke with
Google as well.

And so I think partnerships is
the natural way for me to kind

of think about these big guys
rather than them kind of coming

in and acquiring us.

Jonathan Nguyen: And I mean, on
that note, you've been doing the

rounds of fundraising.

It's a tough time.

Most of the startups I've been
speaking to say, yeah, investors

have said, oh, we're interested
, but no one's actually

deploying.

You're seeing some success.

What do you attribute that to?

Pak-Sun Ting: Well, I attribute
that a lot to the way we're

trying to fundraise.

And two is how we run our
business.

So for the first one, you know,
going to institutional VCs in

Hong Kong again there's that
lack of seed stage, pre-A stage,

so that doesn't really help.

So we kind of went through
connections, individual tickets

as well.

We do have institutional VCs
for this brand, one based in

Hong Kong and the other based in
Europe, so that kind of helped

a lot as well.

Cyreport was a big help.

We're part of CyReport CIP as
well, and so leveraging their

network has been helpful as well
.

So using this kind of sort of
style of approaching investments

, individual tickets, family
offices, infrastructures that

are already set up in Hong Kong
that can help us do that raise.

So I think that was sort of one
part of our success.

The second part is trying to be
profitable right.

So being having building
business, actually deploying our

technology, working with
corporates, banks, governments,

they pay, and in that sense it's
sort of the best way of funding

a company, because you're
building on success, you're

building on a pain point and
they're paying you, so it's

validated and all that money is
not equity, their revenue.

So that helps a lot as well.

So what we've been, we've been
hyper focused on how do we get

revenue, how do we scale revenue
, how do we do partnerships so

that we don't have to build a
big sales team but rather

leverage our partners like
channel sales to kind of do that

.

So it's a lot of infrastructure
building as well, but I would

say those two sort of really
helped us.

You know, get that quote
unquote success.

We're not successful yet, but
we did close a sort of mini

round and again, revenue is
something that a lot of VCs look

at as well.

So having that was helpful for
sure.

Jonathan Nguyen: So I mentor on
the Founder Institute program,

amongst a couple of others, but
they're very early stage and

there is in the Hong Kong cohort
this year there is probably

10-15 startups and at a very
early stage.

Right if right, if you could
give them.

They're at the point where
they've written their business

plan, they've just incorporated
and they have a pitch deck.

If you could tell your younger
self, as these people are at

this point in their journey,
what was something that you

definitely wouldn't do again.

Don't do the whole thing.

Pak-Sun Ting: Go back to the
bank job just check the box and

go back there.

Yeah, so what?

Jonathan Nguyen: what would you
do?

What would?

What would you do differently?

That you would advise and
counsel, you know, knowing that

all walks of life are going to
be different, right, right, but

reflect on that a bit.

Pak-Sun Ting: Yeah, I think,
yeah, I'm not sure.

Actually, I think what it would
tell my younger self or younger

cohorts is that you know the
usual cliched stuff which is

it's a long journey, da, da, da,
da, and all that kind of stuff.

I would say, think about
partnerships.

You know, let's say, in poker
you have ace of whatever, ace of

spades or whatnot.

If the other person has ace of
hearts, he ace of clubs, he has

ace of diamonds.

You partner up.

You can beat 90 on the table,
probably more I don't know what

the stats are, but you can beat
almost a lot of hands out there.

So partnership is one big thing
.

One thing I found that when I
speak to founders they always

feel that they have this amazing
idea and they don't want to

share it with anybody.

They want to develop it and
then they want to go to market.

I say validate that, go through
, talk to people, talk to other

founders who are looking to kind
of hit the same pain point.

And then collaboration If
there's a collaboration

opportunity, definitely go for
it.

Going alone I guess this goes
back to what you were saying

being in this sort of founder's
uh journey is a very lonely sort

of uh, you know, walk and it's
it's uh, it's very emotional.

So I think having somebody who
you can pair up with, that have

the same vibe, have the same
values, wants to attack the same

pain point, those are
potentially your co-founder.

So collaboration leads to
potentially finding a

co-founding team and so on and
so forth.

So I think that's what I would
advise myself.

I was that kind of guy where.

Not that I was sort of
secretive about what we're

building, but I didn't know that
talking to people actually

could lead to a better outcome.

Focus on small tickets.

Some people kind of want to go
for the big tickets and probably

try and do this somewhere else
other than Hong Kong.

Jonathan Nguyen: Maybe that's
the other example suggestion.

Yeah, I think I mean in terms
of scale, it's tricky.

Hong Kong is a tricky place,
but also, you know what I

noticed?

I was mentoring on the Founder
Institute Japan program and they

had a very high number of
female founders and they came up

with some ideas that absolutely
wouldn't have been credible, or

, you know, I don't think a man
would have arrived at the the

same conclusion.

So, being in hong kong and from
hong kong, you're going to come

up with solutions that aren't
going to be thought of somewhere

else and and maybe that is what
is required, albeit it's not

easy.

Pak-Sun Ting: Yeah, definitely
not easy.

I think the other thing about
Hong Kong too is the corporate

Hong Kong team.

Let's call it that.

They're not as open to
innovation as sort of my

experience in, let's say, canada
or talk to my friends in the

States.

And so I think if you have
corporate Hong Kong again not

sponsoring some of these ideas
by just not adopting it and just

kind of going through the same
sort of vendors, going through

the big listed companies and
making sure that if you go to a

listed company, if they fail,
then at least you can go back to

your boss and say, hey, look,
it's not me, it's them.

I think there's that as well in
Hong Kong.

So there's that sort of
inability to lose or to kind of

fail in that sense.

So I think all in all, there's
that sort of thing that kind of

doesn't make a seed stage
company an easy ride.

But I think if you can get past
that again, partner with guys

like people like CyberCorp.

Jonathan Nguyen: You know
they're there and as long as you

can tap that network.

Pak-Sun Ting: You can leverage
that sort of momentum.

You can probably do maybe big
things.

You know they have a huge
network of people.

So that would be my sort of
response.

Jonathan Nguyen: So you're here
now.

You've got some way to go, I'm
sure If I was to ask you how far

have you got to go?

What does success look like?

Pak-Sun Ting: ago.

What does success look like?

I think success would look like
actually kind of seeing your

technology in scale.

I think that's the easy sort of
answer.

I think success for me
personally would really mean not

worrying about the
month-to-month you know.

Rather it's more like which
market should we look into?

I think I define success quite
traditionally in some sense.

Like you know, are people
talking about you?

Do you have revenue?

Are you able to tap that series
?

You know alphabet soup, you
know A, b, c, d, e.

Are you IPO ready?

To me that's the definition of
success, because that's defined

for me in some sense by taking
outside capital.

But personally I think again,
seeing how that technology, or

hearing case studies, or hearing
people doing testimonies about

saying how this Cantonese LLM or
they were able to learn

Cantonese through Cantonese LLM,
or cut this bank's cost by X

amount.

I think that to me would be the
most resounding, most validating

success.

I would claim.

The most resounding, most
validating success, I would

claim.

But then again, I have that
very traditional definition of

success as well, just again
because of investors.

Jonathan Nguyen: So I used to
ask people, 10 years from now,

what's the ideal future hold?

But I think in this space,
maybe it's just five years is as

far ahead as we can look
because it moves so quickly.

Maybe it's just five years is
as far ahead as we can look

because it moves so quickly.

What do you think is going to
happen in the next five years?

What's the future hold for us?

Pak-Sun Ting: I think I'm
optimistic.

I think the future I'm half
class, full type of guy.

I think the future would be in
a better position, better than

today.

That's my sort of general one
liner, right.

I think it's going to be good.

I think we'll see a lot more
innovation come into play in

different parts of the world,
almost like the smartphone era,

you know, when people, you see a
lot of innovation coming out of

Africa and some parts of Africa
as well, just because of online

teaching, smartphones.

They have all these different
hacks that we would never be

able to apply in our parts of
the world or in North America,

where I was born.

So I see a lot more innovation
coming out.

I see, hopefully, a lot more
people being brought out of

poverty, being able to kind of
work on things that they want to

work on, and I think, with
economics being better, that's

highly correlated or
uncorrelated with conflict,

right.

So the more developed the
country is, the less it's going

to go into internal conflict.

You know, you know there's the
famous Thomas Lieberman, the

McDonald, the Golden Arse theory
.

Obviously, that theory has been
broken, but to a certain point

it was working.

You know, every place that had
a McDonald's didn't have

conflict or didn't go into sort
of a large-scale conflict.

So I see this as being sort of
somewhat the equalizer, if you

will.

But the equalizer moment is
going to happen in the parts of

the world that we don't talk
about as much, and that's what

we want to focus on parts of the
world that we don't talk about

as much, and that's what we want
to focus on.

So no flying cars, no AGI out to
get us.

So I think there is real
concerns about AI in general, or

AGI, and I think the big
concern for me is the

displacement of jobs.

What's going to happen if an
economy suddenly loses 5% or 10%

of the workforce?

That's a real thing.

These people will be out of
jobs.

The government might not be
able to support.

If they do, it's not going to
be at the scale that people want

.

So I think jobs is a real thing
.

I think deep fakes, fraud I
think it's definitely going to

be used for that kind of stuff
as well.

So that's another big thing.

We have the big elections
coming up, so is that going to

be affected in some ways by fake
news?

And fake news is going to be
powered by AI for sure.

So that's not a big concern for
me.

Is it going to create these
robots?

Maybe not.

I'm not as concerned about that
.

Is it going to create viruses
that could harm the world?

I think there's a tail chance
of that happening as well.

So there are concerns for sure.

Flying cars maybe not, yet we'll
see.

You know, there's a company
called ehang that's developing

sort of not drones, but like
self-powered not so far, but

autonomous driving helicopters
that can take two people.

That's happening already and we
saw that in France as well, I

think, at the Olympics.

So I see that.

But I think we're still quite
long away from the existing

major cities.

Newer cities like the new
capital for Indonesia, sure, the

new capital of Korea south of
Seoul, yeah, I think that's

going to happen as well, but not
in Hong Kong, not in New York,

not in Toronto.

So that's my take Next five
years, that is.

Jonathan Nguyen: Any closing
words for?

Pak-Sun Ting: us.

Jonathan Nguyen: Next five years
, that is.

Pak-Sun Ting: Any closing words
for us?

No, I'm very thankful for guys
like you kind of creating this

kind of stuff for us to kind of
channel our stress out, you know

, to kind of talk about it.

Closing words I think I'm
positive about the future.

I very am.

I think the next five years uh
is going to be reverse of the

past five years, especially in
hong kong.

You had protests, all that kind
of stuff, and you had covids uh

and then you had uh rates being
high.

So I think next five years,
awesome, enjoy the ride, thank

you.

Jonathan Nguyen: I think we
certainly will Pak thank you

very much for your time and I
look forward to getting you back

in a year's time and get an
update see where you are.

Whether you've retired to the
Bahamas or whether you're still

in the depths of Indonesia
trying to decode the next

language.

Pak-Sun Ting: In the trenches,
but I'll be happy to come back

again, for sure.

Jonathan Nguyen: Awesome, Thanks
Pak.

Pak-Sun Ting: Thank you.

Thank you, Jonathan.