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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 22 (Rusty McKie)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the biggest table. I'm your host, Andrew camp. And in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend, Rusty McKee.
Rusty is trained as both a spiritual director and trauma informed formation coach. He is the founder of Steadfast Ministries where he helps leaders survive and thrive in ministry. He authored sabbaticals, leads retreats, and hosts the Art of Stability podcast. Rusty is also the director of men's ministry for Crosspoint Church. He is passionate about resourcing others to grow in emotional, spiritual, and relational health. He and his wife Rachel live with their three lovely children and lively kids in Central Florida. So thanks for joining me today, Rusty. It's great, um, to connect with you again.
Rusty McKie: Thank you so much for having me, Andrew.
I always enjoy the opportunity to get to connect with you as well.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, and we, we met [00:01:00] in a weird way in which none of, neither of us are still doing what we originally met to talk about. Um, but when I was looking for a job, Rusty was a pastor at a church in Chattanooga, if I remember correctly, right?
Rusty McKie: Yep, that's right.
Andrew Camp: Um, and so we talked briefly, um, and it was really, the timing of that conversation, uh, really was a God ordained meeting. Um, and so since then, Rusty and I have gone different paths, but, um, have stayed in contact. And so it's just really fun to, to connect and, uh, really excited to talk about your new book, which is called The Art of Stability.
Uh, and so it, as I was looking over the book, it really seems to be born out of your own personal experience. And so what, what has caused you to write this book at this time in your life?
Rusty McKie: Yeah, definitely born out of my own experience, both my own internal experience and then also my relational experiences.
So [00:02:00] the ideas for this book started back in probably about 2016. So as the election that year and some of the cultural chaos that came after that, I just started noticing, wow, there's a lot of Instability culturally around us, which, as we know, has only increased since then. And then I was also noticing relationally that the folks I was in relationship with, this pretty consistent question, Of, you know, uh, the gospel really, uh, I know that God loves me, I know that I am rooted and grounded in Christ and yet the, the disconnect between knowing that intellectually and knowing that in a more embodied at a heart level.
Uh, that was a question I was engaging with, uh, with folks in my circles a lot. [00:03:00] And then just also my, my own life and my own story and my own healing process from just, you know, this thing we call life is pretty traumatic for us all and growing both in my own. a journey of healing, but then also as I've now worked with leaders and growing more in trauma informed work, just recognizing, oh yeah, this is, this is a big topic.
And so those would be some of the key factors that led to the writing of the book.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And what, one of the questions that haunted me, um, in a good way, um, in your introduction is where do we go when the safe places die?
Because let's face it, we've all been hurt. Um, you know, All you know, wherever you are in life, you have experienced someplace where you no longer feel safe. And so what, what do you mean by that question? And can you unpack that for our listeners just to help them? Because I'm sure for many, they will be like, okay, yeah, what do I do [00:04:00] when all of a sudden I find myself unsafe?
Rusty McKie: Yeah, I think the first. The thing we need to do is sit with the question. So, you know, it was born out of the introduction to my book, which talks about the real life experience that I had growing up between my eighth and ninth grade year. So growing up in South Carolina, definitely not an area where natural disasters are Something that happens.
So it's pretty uncommon to have those in the area that I grew up in yet one May night over the summer, sitting in my living room with my dad and my sister and my mom in the house as well. We had two tornadoes hit our home in that one evening. I, if I remember correctly, there was something like seven or eight tornadoes in our area that night.
So, I mean, it was like apocalyptic, like [00:05:00] bizarre experience for this area that I lived in and yeah, we literally like the safe place of our home died, you know? So it's like, uh, I just remember the devastation of that and trying to fall asleep. That night after the dust settled of just like, what do we do?
And that moment then, you know, you live some life and it kind of became this little parable of, yeah, we all have different inflection moments in life where we have put our hope in someone or something and then the safety of it has gone away or it has ceased to exist. And so. It really is a question that leads us to the realization that there are multiple moments in our lives.
Where the bottom falls out and so, yeah, what do we do with that question? I think 1st off, [00:06:00] we have to sit with it. And it can. Be devastating it is devastating, but it also can be an invitation into something more stable
Andrew Camp: Yeah, and so how what is the invitation and if how do we begin to sit with that?
Because that's a big task, you know, um, it's not a task I think one should do alone, you know, but to make sure they're around and have people and support. Uh, but how, what advice or tips? And I, again, I feel like even asking the question betrays the significance of what is the invitation, but sure. Um, what, what could a person do to begin to sit with that question?
Rusty McKie: Well, shameless plug, read the book, the art of stability. Yeah, exactly.
Andrew Camp: Yes. For sure. Absolutely.
Rusty McKie: Yes, definitely. You know, there, that is [00:07:00] what the book is about is seeking to answer that question. Or another way to answer that question is how do I not just know, but how do I experience finding my refuge? And God, and so as, as the book progresses, uh, there are really three main spaces that I talk about how we do that.
Uh, the first is that we become present to God in a more contemplative way. And so we begin to, uh, have our awareness and not just our awareness, but even to expand the capacity of our awareness. To notice God in all things of life, uh, which includes both the highs and the joys. But also the lows and the sorrows so to be able to Experience God in both as st.
Ignatius said the constellations in the desolations
Andrew Camp: Yep
Rusty McKie: The the second would be becoming [00:08:00] present to ourselves in silence And so learning how to actually sit with you mentioned this hard. Yeah, it's Terribly, terribly hard to sit with what's challenging for our souls, what's triggering if we can use that word.
To learn how to just to begin to sit in stillness. Now, side note here, if someone has trauma, which this becomes one of the obstacles that I talk about later in the book, it can be terribly, terribly hard to sit. With ourselves in silence. And so, uh, certainly don't retraumatize yourselves. Get yourself a good trauma informed therapist or spiritual director that can sit with you, you know, to help you learn and grow that capacity to sit with yourself in stillness and silence.
Uh, there really is a good reason that David says in Psalm 131, I've calmed and quieted my soul. Like a weaned child with its mother. You know, there is [00:09:00] a sense of we need to learn. How to calm and quiet our souls, so sitting with ourselves in stillness, and then finally, to be able to stay present to others in a friendship is would be the three main areas.
And even that can be triggering for a lot of folks in recent years with all the division that we've had, but as much as it's difficult to sit with others and to commit to others, it is necessary. As you mentioned, we Can't do it alone.
Andrew Camp: No. Um, and as you were talking, I'm reminded of a quote that, uh, Lori Wilbert, who was just a guest on my podcast shared and it's, um, I forget which book it's from and which author, but she says, you know, we're born coming into this world, looking for people who are looking for us.
Oh,
Rusty McKie: beautiful.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, um, you know, the name of the author is on the tip of my tongue and I can't remember it, which is frustrating right now, but it's a great quote in that I think it speaks to what you're [00:10:00] saying is, is as we're learning to sit with ourselves in these moments of instability, seeking stability, we need to find those people, look for people who are looking for us, um, to look for safe people.
Yep,
Rusty McKie: that's right. That's right. Yeah. And we all have a proclivity towards either isolation, individualization, or towards community. And so being able to recognize in the process which one becomes more natural for us. And then also to be able to grow in the other. Because if we are just all community, then we end up looking to others to be our savior.
Yeah. If we, you know, Remove ourselves from community and we're just by ourselves and trying to find our stability there, then my goodness at that point, uh, we're looking to ourselves as our savior. So to be able to learn how to stay present to God in contemplation, uh, in all things that [00:11:00] includes both those moments by ourselves.
And those moments in community, and so there really is this present to God, self, and others that all need to be happening in concert with one another,
Andrew Camp: which makes it all the more sometimes difficult in this task, because I know when I'm experiencing the hurt and the instability, um, you know, Doing everything all at once feels overwhelming, you know, and trauma does a lot to our bodies, you know, and And so just how to stay present to God to others to myself It's an exhausting but enlivening work
Rusty McKie: it is it is which is again as you mentioned We need others to help us with it, right and trauma is this Uh It's this slap in the face or this salt in the wound of we really need to grow in our presence to God, self [00:12:00] and others.
Yet trauma takes us out of the present moment and it overwhelms our bodies and it causes us to disassociate from our bodies. And so, uh, I do find as I talk with folks that there is this idea of, oh, I have pain, I have hurt, I have trauma. And I need to feel it to heal it. That's Daniel Siegel's language.
As he talks about, you know, you gotta name it to tame it, you gotta feel it to heal it. And so we take that idea, which is true, and then we kind of get this idea of, oh, when I begin to feel my hurt or the wound, Or the trauma, I'm gonna get lost in it. Hmm. And so we either dive all in, and we do become consumed by it, or we avoid it because we're like, I don't have time to do that right now.
But I've found that it's helpful to realize that even as we begin the process of healing, you don't actually have to go 100 percent into the pain to [00:13:00] start healing from it. Hmm. And so that is again part of this growing in your capacity to hold both sorrow and joy to be sorrowful yet always rejoiceful Always rejoicing as Paul says so to be able to hold both to be able to be by myself and be with God and be with others and to Realize like I don't have to do all of that a hundred percent all the time Right now I can go five percent into feeling my pain And I can also sit back and simultaneously stay present to the fact that I am loved.
And that I'm safe and that, uh, the Holy spirit of God is with me right now. So, so there is a both and, and again, trauma, trauma messes us up because it sends us into either or thinking and we need the both and thinking. And so all of this is growing in our capacity. All of this is growing these skills, which is helpful to have some guides and someone [00:14:00] companioning us in that process.
Andrew Camp: No, for sure. And I loved your little, your, not your little, your invitation that entering into the pain doesn't need to be a hundred percent, because I think many of us have that false notion. I carry that false notion with me. Um, but to, to take little steps, um, You know, and so, so listeners, wherever you are in this journey, if you're in this season of pain and sorrow, where can you gently lean in just a little, um, to this pain, whether it's 5%, maybe it's just 1%, um, but to start someplace, um, yeah, that's just a great word, Rusty.
Rusty McKie: Yeah, I mean, it is getting closer to our pain. So that we can hand it to Jesus. Yeah. Yep. But, but, but again, it's not that we have to go all the way into our pain. And so again, this comes back to the staying present to our bodies as well as we're, as we're processing pain and hurt, like, oh, am I getting overwhelmed?[00:15:00]
Yeah. Oh, is my heart racing and beating out of my chest? Oh, is it hard to breathe right now? Well, that's your body and the wisdom that God has given you through your body to say, hey, maybe you need to slow down
Andrew Camp: Yeah,
Rusty McKie: as you said that we're gentle. Hey, maybe I need to be gentle with myself. Okay, maybe that's enough for today Okay, let's uh, let's shelf this And let's step away and let me go actually on a walk.
Let me go take care of myself. Let me go watch a movie or let me go have a good meal with someone, right? Yeah, let me go share a table with someone and connect with someone over something that's not just this thing that feels so daunting right now.
Andrew Camp: For sure. No. And it is that gentle embrace. Um, you know, our trauma, our hurt, whatever it is, big or small, it doesn't go away by us willing it away or us, you know, angrily trying to beat [00:16:00] it out of us.
But, um, how to embrace it. It's sort of, Again, as we're talking, reminded of Inside Out 2 in that beautiful scene at the end where, you know,
Rusty McKie: I haven't seen it yet. Andrew, are you going to, are you going to do a spoiler for me now? So no,
Andrew Camp: go see it. Sorry, Rusty. I won't stop. You know, if you've seen inside out to, you know what I mean?
If you haven't seen it, please, those movies, I think speak, you know, they have such great lessons. They're not kids movies. They're adult movies about emotions. Um, so there's a great scene at the end that speaks to what you're speaking of. Beautiful. Yeah. I don't see a lot of movies, so I figured if I've seen it, everybody has seen it, but
Rusty McKie: I know not yet, it's on the docket. It's on the docket.
Andrew Camp: What I also love about your work, you know, as you're talking about stability, um, you name it as, as a key desire, but I think in our misplaced [00:17:00] desires, we place and look for stability, not where it's ultimately found, you know, like, you know, and you mentioned like you, you had a stable job, you had a stable relationships, your marriage was stable, and yet internally you felt Instable if I'm are unstable if I'm remembering correctly.
And so what? As we've talked about stability, what is stability?
Rusty McKie: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I would describe stability, which now that you ask that question, it's funny, I don't ever define it in the book. So it's more defined through explanation than a specific sentence. But I really would define stability as that ability to stay present to God, ourselves, and others.
That ability to stay, if I can use more clinical terms, within our window of tolerance. Which is that, uh, that [00:18:00] window, that, uh, range of which I can handle what is overwhelming for me. And all kinds of things are overwhelming for all of us. It's not a, there are some things that are overwhelming for everyone.
They're universally overwhelming. And they, Get us dysregulated outside of our window of tolerance where we are going into fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So that is certainly the case, but then for others of us, depending on our stories, you know, uh, loud noises. Or, uh, walking into your home, maybe you have small kids, and they are happily playing and screaming, and all of a sudden you find your breath getting short, and you find constriction in your throat, and you just want to run out of the room, you know?
Uh, for some of us, the, even the notion of slowing down, and getting silent, and paying attention to emotions. And our internal world that can be overwhelming for some of us a lot of movement [00:19:00] can be overwhelming So there's all kinds of things that are overwhelming for us. And so stability is the ability to stay present to God ourselves and others in the face of Pressure challenges, uh, things that are disorienting.
And I think within that idea of staying present, too, is the idea of staying whole. You know, so we think of, uh, being a whole, integrated person. That our entire brain can stay online. And we can, we can tolerate, we can have resilience. In those moments.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so as you're talking to, you know, that's part of being stable is this ability to stay present in the midst of fragility, you know, and because, you know, you also mentioned we're more fragile than we actually like to admit, um, you know, which is not an easy thing for, um, anybody, but I think especially males, you know, and so, um, to embrace our [00:20:00] fragility because the modern picture of a man is.
Self made, you know, bravado, you know, fragility is not a attribute. I think many of us like to attribute to masculinity, and yet I think it is a vital part. You and I would agree, you know, that, um, we need men who embrace fragility, um, you know, and so, yes. How, for, for men, for, you know, men who are listening, who are like, Hey, this sounds inviting and I think this is the journey and yet we have to fight this Americanized, even evangelical picture, you know, of, of masculinity.
Like what, how have you helped men sort of take this journey in a way that will actually help them be more masculine versus less masculine?
Rusty McKie: Yeah, great question. You know, I think they have to want to help themselves first, which is the case for anyone. You can't help someone who doesn't [00:21:00] want the help. And often men want the help after the bottom has fallen out, after they have had some kind of disorienting experience.
And this goes back to the idea of stability as being a whole integrated person. You know, there are places in every one of our souls That are more fragile and we often spend much of our lives covering those up with accomplishments with accolades with You know power by getting power with pleasure With personality, you know, I mean we use all these things to try to cover up and make ourselves feel stronger Then we are, and we really exile those parts of our soul and ourselves.
So it really is tragedy often, sadly, that makes that part of our soul. So loud that we can't ignore it anymore. [00:22:00] So that tends to be the place where most men are like, I can't ignore it. I need help. Right. And with that, you know, there, there is this sense of, okay, well, let's start to enter in not with an either or mentality, not either you are fragile or you are stable, you are strong, or you are weak, but with a recognition that in the scriptures, there is a both and reality.
That is presented to us, you know, so Paul can simultaneously say in first Corinthians 12 that he boasts all the more in his weakness because the power of Christ is made known through it. And then over in Ephesians chapter six, he can say, therefore be strong in the Lord. So there is this paradox in the scriptures of we are completely and utterly unable to save ourselves.
Yeah. [00:23:00] We are helpless in that regard. But then as we talk about being a new creation in Christ, there is still lingering weakness and fragility, and we actually shouldn't shy away from that. We should embrace it because the gospel is put on display through it, and simultaneously we're taught in the scriptures that the Spirit indwells us.
Empowers us. And so, yeah, I think there has to be a recognition that I need to grow in this is inviting. And then coming along someone who can help you, I find often get closer to that weakness, get closer to that fragility, that pain, grow the capacity to hold it. That then actually helps them not only grow in embracing the fragility.
That also grow in embracing their strength, because the reality, Andrew, is the moment we are trying to ignore, reject, exile our fragility by being quote, [00:24:00] unquote, strong. That's not actually true strength. No, that's a cover story. And that cover story is really. Just the wounded places in us self protecting and try to don't get too close.
You know, it's it's not true connection It's not true intimacy with God yourself or with others. So so again, there's a paradox here How do you help men actually become more masculine? Well, it is through embracing your weakness your fragility Vulnerability, it's by getting close enough and strong enough really to hold it in the presence of Jesus and others You Which then begins to open up this whole new world and oh, I am both, as Andy Crouch says in his wonderful book, Strong and Weak, I am strong and weak, which now, Jesus, 100% Models for us.
Andrew Camp: For sure. Oh, yeah. I love that you keep coming back to this. Both and thinking [00:25:00] versus either or, um, which is so true, but so hard. Um,
so hard. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, and so what, as we begin this journey, you know, you end up with, You're inviting us for this contemplation, um, what, what spiritual exercises have you found most helpful, um, to begin this process?
Rusty McKie: Yeah, totally. So the most helpful for me and growing in a more contemplative way of life has been contemplative prayer. Yeah, it makes sense, right? Uh, so to actually set aside time and space in my schedule to sit in stillness. In a chair, and to move, uh, as Mark Thibodeau says, not just through the first two buckets of prayer, which would be, uh, talking at God, which is more [00:26:00] liturgical fixed prayers.
Talking at God sounds bad, but he doesn't mean it in that way. It's, uh, you know, the Lord's prayer is picking up a prayer book, like a common book of prayer or every moment holy. It's using others fixed prayers. Uh, to stir up our affections for God. Uh, so that'd be the first category. The second category would be talking to God.
That's more intercessory prayer. And this is what many of us were trained and discipled in as the acts prayer method, you know, adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication is talking to God. It's just conversation with him for a lot of us, myself included. We were like, okay, that's where prayer ends, you know, and so helpfully says, no, there's more, there's more in this bigger umbrella of contemplative prayer, which includes listening prayer.
And stillness prayer and so listening. Here I am, Lord, your servants listening and paying attention, [00:27:00] noticing where's my attention going? Where is the spirit of God directing my attention? All right, Lord, do you want to talk about that? Uh, and then ultimately moving to a place of just again, that's Psalm 131.
I've calmed and quieted my soul. Like a weaned child with his mother. I mean, think of the imagery that David is putting before us there. A weaned child is a child who does not need something from the mom. And that, you know, an unweaned child is like, give me food. Yeah, exactly. Like, you are my food, mom.
Like, help me sustain my life and bless you until they get what they need. A weaned child, on the other hand, is Can sit with a calm contentedness and just with that gaze the loving gaze Of looking into the mother's eyes like you mentioned earlier that quote, right? We're looking for friends who are looking for us Yeah, and so stillness prayers beginning to [00:28:00] move into that direction of okay.
I've calmed and quieted my soul I am still and I know that you're God. And just this real beautiful sense of like, I'm sitting here in the presence of the Lord, and I'm enjoying being with Him, and I'm simultaneously experiencing, sensing, that he enjoys being with me. Yeah. Now that takes a lot of discipline, a lot of work, a lot of practice to be able to do that.
And we get glimpses and moments of it. And then all of a sudden, like we revert and it's hard to get to again. And so, I mean, it's this constant seeking and knocking and asking, but it's beautiful when we can get there. So I've found that the more I can sit in contemplative prayer and curiosity. With a sense of connectedness with God that really impacts your life.
Yeah, you know [00:29:00] that 20 minutes or 30 minutes or an hour that you're sitting in contemplative prayer that changes the way that you perceive things in life and it also changes the way that you feel in your body. You feel more grounded. So that then you can move out into relationships and hopefully have more of a sense of your own, your own weight, your own rootedness in Christ and in his love.
Andrew Camp: Mm hmm. Yeah. And again, the invitation isn't to start with an hour and try an hour, but begin with five minutes. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah, that's right. Just just as we're talking, have talked about leaning into the pain, you know, trying a new exercise, a new discipline, a new habit, whatever you want to call them.
You know, you don't, you don't, you don't Start by, you know, doing it for an hour, but, you know, just five minutes, a minute if necessary. That's right.
Rusty McKie: That's right. And, you know, we're so wired [00:30:00] with a Western mindset towards the pursuit of happiness, happy, happy, happy, happy, happy time that we ignore what's painful.
And here's the irony because we know that we ignore what's challenging and painful internally. We don't grow our capacity to stay with it, which also means we actually don't have a pretty, uh, very high capacity to stay with the pleasure or to stay with love. For to stay with joy because our ability to stay with joy and love, like those are actually pretty energetic and pretty, uh, they're pretty high end emotions.
And so if we're constantly like, Ooh, when I feel sensations in my body that are over like overwhelming, or they have a lot of energy to them, Ooh, I feel overwhelmed and I can't get anywhere near that. Well, guess what? That's the way love and joy feel
Andrew Camp: interesting.
Rusty McKie: And [00:31:00] so growing our capacity to sit with the pain.
You know, all right, I'm going to go 5 percent or 2 percent into this. I'm going to sit with this in the presence of the Lord for five minutes. Oh, that was hard, but I did it. Okay. Yeah. It's the exact same thing as sitting in contemplative prayer and trying to Since and praying Romans 5 5 like father, would you through your spirit for your love into my heart?
Would you allow me to know that and experience that it's just challenging. So yeah, we need to grow our capacity
Andrew Camp: Yeah
Rusty McKie: to sit with emotions that have some intensity to them both positive and negative Uh, what we would call more negative or more challenging.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. Yeah. No, again, um, you know, I love how themes of the podcast intertwined between guests.
Um, and so some, you know, I was, as you're talking about that, we need to, we can't experience joy until we experience the pain and the sorrow that the both, again, [00:32:00] it's both and it's not either or, um, Michael Twitty, who was a guest, who's an African American Jew. He talks about. That, you know, African Americans and Jews are the people who are forced to eat bitterness and bitter food, um, in order that they can then relish in the joy, you know, and, um, and so I, again, we don't like to think it that way, but, um, I think, again, it's this both and that we, we can't grow in our capacity for love and joy without also embracing, um, Um, in kindness and in gentleness, these darker aspects of life.
Rusty McKie: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Redemption's not sweet unless you, unless you really experience something that you need redeeming from.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, and as we then think about community, cause this is, the podcast is called the biggest table, you know, and, um, one [00:33:00] of my favorite authors, Norman Wirzba talks about that hospitality is loving others into a wholeness.
Um, And so how, as we do this together, how can the table be a place, um, of stability, whether physically or even, you know, and also spiritually.
Rusty McKie: Yes. Oh, what a great question.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. I had to throw a curveball at you a little bit.
Rusty McKie: Oh, I love it. I love it. You know, I, I can't think about the table without thinking about the chair, you know, the prayer chair or the prayer closet.
Again, this is the dance between. And Jesus did this dance, right? You regularly see Jesus. Going from solitude to close community to mission. And then he begins to experience his limits. And what does he do? He goes back to solitude often, often in prayer by himself, but every once in a while, you know, uh, I can't remember where it is in Mark.
I think it's Mark [00:34:00] chapter two, where it talks about the disciples were so busy. That they like, forgot to eat lunch, you know, there's so much, so much work to do and I mean, I've been there, right? I'm sure many of us have where we get so wrapped up in our work and what we're doing. And for me, you know, I'm honored, but my work is often doing work to help others.
Get closer to Jesus. So in a sense, I'm working for Jesus. And yet I forget to eat lunch. I forget to stay connected with Jesus. I get disconnected from myself. And Jesus goes to his disciples and he says, Hey, come away with me. And so in that sense, he invites the disciples away with him. So there's communal peace to the solitude, but yeah, Jesus follows that pattern.
Solitude to connect with the father community, to connect with others and then mission repeat, right? And so there is a real sense in which we need to learn how to be whole people [00:35:00] with God in silence with ourselves, and then we can come to the table. We can come to community. We can come to the mission, the work that we have to do as whole people.
And I love that. I love that definition of love that we, we then as whole people can love others into being whole people. And so. That's again, the connection between the two is just resonating so deeply for me even the idea of learning how to stay present to what's challenging inside of us The intensity of suffering and sorrow also the intensity of love joy and peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness all those things, right?
Yeah The ability to learn to practice in silence and contemplative prayer to staying present with those things in ourselves without getting dysregulated immediately translates to the table because as conversations are [00:36:00] brought up, I don't know, politics, perhaps, you know, as conversations are brought up that are dysregulating for us, well, we've actually been spending all this time learning how to stay with what maybe used to would have dysregulated us.
So we've actually increased our window of tolerance to stay with those challenging internal experiences. And so, oh, now I have a little more capacity to stay present to you as you're saying something that used to would have triggered me. Oh, rather than being more reactive and anxious in your presence now, oh, I'm actually a little calmer, right?
Not perfectly calm.
Andrew Camp: No,
Rusty McKie: that's not possible to be activated to, uh, to be overwhelmed. By things that are overwhelming that is not a lack of faith. That is not a sin [00:37:00] in and of itself That is what it means to be a human with an autonomic nervous system. Yeah But as we increase our capacity, it's like oh I can sit at a table With you and I can be calmer.
I can be more relaxed. I can hold the both and Rather than get reactive and fall into an either or and us versus them Mentality and I can create space with my calmer presence. It helps your autonomic nervous system calm down Hmm, and now all of a sudden there's this beautiful interplay happening where connection is possible and Curiosity is possible And loving one another into wholeness and iron sharpening iron and oh, you think this and I think that but we can actually meet in the middle.
That's actually possible, right? And it's possible because [00:38:00] we did our own work with our own. Therapist and spiritual directors and in silence and in contemplative prayer, right? Yeah, all of that is making and that's that's why I love calling prayer practice Right, because we are practicing These ways of being with God and ourselves that then translates into how we are with each other
Andrew Camp: each other Yeah, and gives them a glimpse of something different and better That's right.
Hopefully too, you know, but that's right. But then also hopefully your table is not just filled with people who trigger or raise your anxiety, but you have those safe people in which each of you are helping to love each other into wholeness. You know, that Yeah. You know, I don't have to come to the table whole.
I come to the table broken.
Rusty McKie: Yes, absolutely. That is a key, key component. Yeah, I can come falling apart. I can come dysregulated. I can come overwhelmed. I can [00:39:00] come outside of my window of tolerance. Yeah. And I know that you're going to listen. And that you're going to show me compassion and not condemnation, right?
Because you have a track record of doing that. Yeah, we, we all need those friends. A few, as I call it in the book, a few that we can be, uh, you know, Generally open with all invulnerably specific with a few we have to be able to have that and I love what st Allred talks about in his book spiritual friendship, which I quote regularly in my chapter on the friendship that not Everyone is worthy of your secrets Hmm.
Yeah, and I think for some of us We so value authenticity that we feel like if I'm not expressing the most fragile parts of my soul to the person I'm talking to, then I'm being inauthentic and I'm lying to them and I'm lying to myself and that's just really dangerous. We can be [00:40:00] generally open with all.
Yeah, I'm having a, I'm having a hard day. How are you doing? Well, I'm okay. Like, today's been had some ups and downs and you know, I'm working through it. Appreciate your prayers. You know, you can be generally open with everyone, but, you know, to dump your hardest stuff on an acquaintance is not fair to them.
And it ultimately is going to result in more negative experiences for you, where you actually are not seen, not handled with care. You're not met with compassion. So to have those few that we can be vulnerably specific with. Where it's like, Oh, I know I can call up Sally or I know I can call up John and I, I know what I'm going to get with them.
And it's a five minute conversation, but who they're kind presence, calm presence, calmer presence. Yeah, it's calmed me down
Andrew Camp: for sure. [00:41:00] You know, my wife and I wrestled through this recently, you know, my loss of a job and us finding a new church, you know, and us going to a church, people would ask, so how long have you been in Flagstaff?
Like what brought you to Flagstaff? And originally we would always say, well, I used to work at a church. I got laid off. And so now we're here and we're like, we don't need to always tell that story to lead off. Like we get to decide what story we tell. Yes. You know, and it's not again, like you said, it's not being inauthentic, but it's also protecting ourselves, you know, and you know, and and once the relationship progresses, if it does like to be able to share more, you know, and yes, and Um, so I, yeah, your reminder too, yeah, like you can be open, but that doesn't mean you have to dump it all, you know, and you get to choose what story you tell.
Rusty McKie: That's right. In St. Alred's wisdom, it was, you know, [00:42:00] like test people, not, not in a way that's, uh, unkind or unfair to them. But share something and see how they handle it. And then if they handle that well, then next time share a little more, you know, you don't have to dump all at once. Relationships grow over time.
And so take your time. And this goes back as well to this idea of stability. Part of the part of the stability and instability that we experienced is directly connected to our sense of agency or our lack of sense of agency. I mean, you said it like we don't have to, we get to choose, you know, that is a sense of, Oh, I have agency over my story.
Whereas this subtle lie of, if I don't share everything that's going on, I'm being inauthentic, well, that's actually giving away your agency. Yeah, it's no, I have to share everything with everyone. And in that case, you are kind of [00:43:00] helpless to the, and you're, you're open. You're vulnerable to people that you may not even really know.
And you don't know their stories. You don't know their maturity level. So to be able to recognize in this area and a lot of areas, Oh, actually. Yes, I am helpless apart from Jesus. I cannot save myself. It is by grace through faith alone that I am saved and, and I am empowered by the Holy Spirit of God to do good works, to take action.
I can make choices that impact my environment. I have agency. It's huge. It's huge for our sense of internal stability.
Andrew Camp: For sure. No. Yeah. And so listeners again, it's the invitation of where, wherever you are, of what story do you need to tell, you know, um, [00:44:00] and with whom do you need to tell it with, you know, and, um, you get to choose, um, and that you get
Rusty McKie: to choose.
Yeah. And our bodies again, learning how to stay present to our bodies, please. God gives us inherent wisdom in our bodies where we have a sense of an inherent no or yes in a lot of situations But for those of us who were taught to not trust our intuition to not trust our gut, you know All of a sudden it's like oh these narratives these thoughts of like, oh, I don't share.
I'm not being authentic Well, that is a that is an interpretive lens Yeah, that is a message that is really at an intellectual level is driving our behavior. And so to be able to hear that, and then to sit with someone and look them in the eyes and then simultaneously listen to what sensations are rising in my body.
Yeah. And oh, I'm thinking about sharing this, but oh, I don't. [00:45:00] Think I should I have a check in my gut. I have a check in my spirit. Well, listen to that You know, or if you're like man, I feel so open with this person and you really sense this strong Yes. Yes, I should share Then ask the Lord if you should share and if you get a sense of yes, then share and of course we're gonna get that Right and wrong, but again, we practice and we learn and we grow
Andrew Camp: Well, that's my wife and I we practiced telling the story before we went and started telling the story like yeah You know and there's nothing wrong with that.
It's again. It's protecting us, you know and protecting our agency and our whole bodies and whole souls. Um, you know, so that when the time is right, we have those few people who can really hold and be with us and who we can be with. That's right.
Rusty McKie: That's right. And I just love this thread of our [00:46:00] conversation.
You know, we're talking about it in terms of what we share and vulnerability with others, but this applies in so many different areas that really what we're saying right now is autopilot is great. In most cases and becomes disastrous in many cases. And so just having the awareness and the intentionality to recognize, oh, I have choice.
I have agency and that involves what we share in as far as vulnerability in relationships. It also, I mean, another thing that's just coming to mind is how much we get on autopilot with social media. Yeah. To the degree to where we open our phone to do one thing, and then we just automatically migrate over and we're checking, right?
And it becomes this automatic thing where we feel like we are helpless to the powers that be. And in [00:47:00] reality, we have choice. Can we slow down enough? To really ask the Lord, is it good for me to check my social media right now? Yeah And God gives us wisdom in our minds and our intellect in our bodies in our souls To be able to if we're honest with ourselves be like, you know, what it's actually gonna do violence Yeah to my soul to get on social media right now.
And so I'm gonna say no I'm going to say no, right? And okay, Lord, what would be good for my soul right now? Oh, a walk. Okay. Oh, brewing a cup of a delicious cup of coffee. Yeah, I'm going to do that right now. And I'm going to worship you through that goodness, as opposed to just go on autopilot down the road and the paths that I always go down and then all of a sudden I get to the end of my day and I'm completely disembodied, disconnected with myself and I'm sad and I'm anxious [00:48:00] and I'm angry and I don't know why.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Wow. Oh, yeah, this has been a delightful conversation. Um, delightful in that it's a joy, but it's also hard. You know, and your invitation and your. Your spirit, your gentleness, um, is just so evident, you know, and I, I hope the listeners pick up on it, you know, and can see the wisdom you have, um,
Rusty McKie: thank you, Andrew,
Andrew Camp: to offer.
Um, and so as we begin to wrap up, there's a question I'd love to ask all of my guests. Um, and so it's this question, what is the story you want the church to tell?
Rusty McKie: Oh, man, what a great question.
Hmm. I mean, honestly. I don't feel like this is an untrue thing for me to say, you know, when I think [00:49:00] about this book. And the art of stability. Uh, it's my second book that I've written. My first was on sabbaticals for folks in ministry. And this book is different in that it's not quite as niche. It's a more broad for the broader church.
And it really is. It summarizes the values of my own soul. The things that I care about the most and the things that I want. For others. So, so it's and also my work, you know, very much as a summary of the work that I do with with leaders So it's not an unfair untrue thing for me to say that the story that I want the church to tell is a story of stability Hmm.
Yep in the chapter on friendship. I mentioned St. Benedict's rule of life and unique to his rule of life as opposed to other monasteries were the vows of stability And it was that the monks in his [00:50:00] monasteries would commit to staying in that monastery for the rest of their lives. Now, in a transient culture, uh, I'm not necessarily advocating that we commit to one church for the rest of our lives, although I think we could commit more to the churches that we're a part of.
But my goodness, I would love, love, love for this church to embody a way of being with one another. where we are all individually getting alone with Jesus to become more whole people, more stable people, calmer people. And then we are coming together as the church and we are, we're generous with one another.
We're curious. We're not driven by fear, but we're driven by love. We're motivated by love and how we care for one another. We're committed to one another in such a way. And this [00:51:00] was St. Benedict's ideal, was that the world of Rome that was falling apart and was so unstable and so chaotic, they would look to these monasteries and see how these monks loved one another, and they would say, how do you do it?
Right. Yeah. And then they would get to turn around and say, the grace of Jesus. It's all Jesus. Yeah. And you can know him too. So I would just, I would so love for churches, which have been such a space of contention to become these spaces of stability and consistency that then becomes just a witness, a witness to our world of the power of Jesus when we are finding Our refuge in him for
Andrew Camp: sure.
Yeah, so that the world may know
Rusty McKie: so that the [00:52:00] world may know. Yeah,
Andrew Camp: that's a great word.
Yeah, I hope listeners can find that place for themselves and begin to enter into this journey. It's not easy. My wife and I are still looking for it, and we're on our own journey. Um, you know, so neither Rusty nor I are here saying we have it all figured out, you know, and, um, we know the church can be full of hurt, um, and pain and sorrow, um, but we also long for people experiencing deep community, um, and relational wholeness at their church.
That's right. That's right.
Rusty McKie: Maybe. Yeah. Maybe, uh, more and more.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so some fun questions to wrap up, just to pivot away, you know, because this is about food and eating and the table. Um, so Rusty, some rapid fire questions for you. What's one food you refuse to eat?
Rusty McKie: Mayonnaise. I hate [00:53:00] mayonnaise. You hate mayonnaise.
I know that's a condiment. And not a food, but anything that has mayonnaise on it, I refuse to eat it.
Andrew Camp: Okay. Wow.
Rusty McKie: I, and I feel strongly about it too. I can tell.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, no. Like there was no hesitation in your voice when you, when that question was asked. My
Rusty McKie: body has an internal no. I mean, it is just so clear.
There is a boundary there.
Andrew Camp: Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. It's not happening. Yeah. Okay. So. Okay. Yeah. And then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever
Rusty McKie: Oh, we could spend the entire time talking about food because I love it so much. Yes. Yes. So much. And I do have top meals. I probably have my, my top five meals that I could come up with.
Uh, one of the best things that I have ever eaten, um,[00:54:00]
hmm,
trying to do. To discern between which one. Okay, so my wife and I, when we were engaged, we started saving before we got married. We saved for almost two years. Uh, and so a year before we got married and a year after we got married. And we did a delayed honeymoon, a trip to Italy. And so, um, we literally were young and dumb and we spent our entire savings not really recognizing that we didn't have money to live after that.
And we went to Italy for 17 days and it was astounding. And so part of me wants to say everything I ate in Italy was my favorite thing that I
Andrew Camp: can imagine.
Rusty McKie: But, uh, but we were in Cinque Terre in the city Manarola. Which is the birthplace of pesto and we were in this little restaurant Overlooking the ocean and I had this pesto pasta [00:55:00] with Linguine noodles for the freshest pesto you've ever had in your life And they literally took everything out of the ocean and dumped it into this pasta.
I mean it was like every kind of Seafood that you could think about All in this meal. And I sat there as a, as a young man and, and delighted in that meal very much. And they also brought a lemon and put it on the table, like a whole lemon. And we didn't understand what was happening. And the lady didn't speak English very well, and we didn't speak Italian very well.
So we didn't know what to do with the lemon. So that was another memory from that meal.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. All right. No, it does sound delightful. Um, and then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be? And so if Rusty had one last meal, what would be on your table?[00:56:00]
Rusty McKie: Uh, does this last meal include appetizers and main course and dessert or just one meal?
Andrew Camp: Uh, it's whatever, you know, your heart desires, there are no limitations to this question.
Rusty McKie: I love this question. Uh, yeah, I would, as much as I love Italian food, I also love Japanese food, so I would most certainly have a meal, preferably, uh, by a really amazing Chef, of which I would normally not be able to afford.
Who makes me, uh, chef's order, whatever he wants. His sushi, uh, ramen, and then whatever [00:57:00] dessert he would want to make for me. So I, I think that would easily be my, my last meal.
Andrew Camp: Sounds delightful. Yes. Just asking one of the, yeah. Asking a great chef to create a meal is one of the joys and delights of life.
Um, you know,
Rusty McKie: yeah. And in that case, like, you know, even my hangups on certain things, like there, there's one instance where I will eat things I normally don't eat. And that's when it is made by a really amazing chef. Yeah. And in that instance, it's like, okay, I normally wouldn't eat that thing, but you put it in front of me, I will eat it.
And I most often am impressed and enjoy it.
Andrew Camp: Yep. I understand. Yep. Awesome. Rusty. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. Um, if people want to learn more about your work, um, where can they find you? Um, besides going on Amazon and ordering the art of stability.
Rusty McKie: Yeah, please do that. Um, and also please share, share reviews.
I'm, [00:58:00] uh, an un, I am a less known author. And so anyone who can help me get the word out is incredibly helpful in this day and age with so much information flying about. Uh, my website is the best place to connect with me for my ministry steadfast steadfastmin. com. That's not men as in male. But it's men is in shortened for ministry steadfast, M I N.
com. And from there you can find my social media and you can find all of the other things that I do.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. So yeah, please do order and pick up and read The Art of Stability. Um, the parts I've read so far are a delight and I can't wait to dig into it more. Um, but so no, thank you. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please do consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others.
And thanks again for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. [00:59:00] Until next time. Bye.