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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy (00:03)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big bold
risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hey everyone, it's Mishu and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we are talking with Colin Parker. Colin is a filmmaker whose work spans from short films and commercials to major productions like The Bear and The Batman.
His short film, Fish Eye, won best editing at the Midwest Film Festival and his feature script, Art of Alchemy, was selected for the 2024 Chicago International Film Festival's sixth lab. That's their industry exchange lab. Colin and I have known each other over the years and we chat about a lot. We talk about developing a first feature film over these past five years, going through editing gigs, late night rewrites and do it yourself pitch decks. We also talk about the delights of balancing practicality.
when it comes to directing as well as dream logic, avoiding cookie cutter slide deck templates and why directing isn't always about control and maybe even a little bit about compulsion. So that's what we talk about.
You can check out more of Colin's work at Instagram at space underscore cave. I'll have that in the show notes as well as his show reel for space cave productions. Colin is also working on a TV show called Monsters for Netflix and producing partners are raising funds for the art of alchemy. His feature film that they're hoping to shoot fall of 2026. So please enjoy the lovely conversation with myself and Colin Parker.
Colin Parker (02:05)
Basically since Chicago International been following up with some of the team that was in the Six Lab, that was pretty great experience, you know. So we're all still helping each other and supporting each other in our films. Dashauna and I have been working on the pitch deck and we kind of transformed what we had as a presentation into more of a file that we can send to people. That's kind of what we were working on mostly in January. Plus just kind of finding freelance work, doing stuff that's creative, videography.
photography kind of stuff.
Cool. Like what's the difference between what was a presentation versus into a file that can be shared? Like what mechanically did that look like? How did you decide to make it different?
Yeah, I mean, like one of the big things was deciding how much text we wanted to have on each slide and if it should be a verbatim of what we said on stage. I kind of tweaked some of that. think our bios are pretty much the same as what we said on the stage. aside from that, I think that the PowerPoint's stronger now because there's a couple more images. Like I kept some of the images that I worked on that are more collage and I left those be as like a singular slide, just kind of to.
fit in between the text and then just have more straightforward images that represent what's happening in the film.
Mishu Hilmy (03:19)
Cool. So you had, like, you kind of land on a semi-finalized version of what I imagine is just like a cleaner, leaner deck.
Colin Parker (03:25)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's about 15 slides and yeah, covers the entire, you know, beats of the story. And then it goes into a little bit of the characters, goes into a little bit about us and just the essential themes of the film. And I think that that's really what I'm sending out to people that are interested in the creative side of the filmmaking. Not so much. We have another document that we decided to keep separate from this that is more about the production and our logistical plans, you know? Right.
So for the separate document is that like more of when you do get either a potential partnership or a lead or a potential connection that may be interested, you're like, right, I'll send you more of the logistics slash finance slash, you know, business side of it versus say the creative side is like, Hey, I'm looking for a gaffer or I'm looking for a DP or I'm looking for, you know, a potential production designer. So here's this, you know, more creative tech.
Yeah, exactly. So I like having the creative deck is mostly what my work has been. Yeah, because that's how I can get people excited about the film and want to help me. But the financial side is a whole different beast. And we're trying to figure out we're still building that document and building out our plan on how we're going to raise the money to make this because feature films are so expensive and trying to if somebody's super wants to know how they're going to get their return, we have somewhat of a plan in there. But, you know, feature films, indie films, they're not really
the best way to if you all you're looking for is ROI then there's documents probably not gonna set up.
Mishu Hilmy (04:52)
Yeah, you're better off going to the casino. I just finished reading Arthur Devaney's Hollywood Economics and this is like a, I think like a statistical PhD type series of like 15 essays around like economic statistical models of like the entertainment industry. It might be the data is from like 1983 to 2003. So it's, it doesn't necessarily account for the economics of streaming, but the takeaway was
basically a rehash of William Goldman's, like nobody knows anything. So like, yeah, you can put a nice model of like, this is what the ROI could be, but because the variance is infinite, because the potential is infinitely uncertain, like you could make, you know, $200,000, you could make $20 million, you could also lose $2 million. So it's like any sort of model is sort of a moot point. it's, yeah, I think it's whoever's, you know, the,
decision makers when it comes to say, I want to, I want to partner with you. want to invest. want to drop X amount of money. There's no real, there's zero guarantees and like total, total uncertainty. Do you find that like, so you're, still developing that kind of pack, like that kind of package. And is that mostly Deshauna or other folks that you know, who could, you know, give us somewhat helpful, you know, deck or email or templates for that?
Yeah, Dishon has been a major part of that. I have another producer, Chris, who's been helping a lot. And we've been kind of reaching out to other people in our network that can take a look at it and give us suggestions. I've met with Pogi and Full Spectrum and Periscope. And they've all been super supportive and given me some ideas on, you know, cast and crew members that I should reach out to. Specifically for this film, one of the biggest elements since most of the movie takes place in one location is
that kind of bigger location that we can nail down and that will help us save up money. So right now it's mostly cast and locations in my mind, but we also have the short film that's a proof of concept and that's gonna help us get in front of more people that are interested in investing in the kind of movie we wanna make.
Mishu Hilmy (06:53.454)
So yeah, when I was thinking about like a slide deck, because you're already a step ahead in that you have a sort of a teaser or like that short that I don't remember if it's two to five minutes long of like establishing the tone, the vibe and kind of the energy of the opening act.
Like, I don't know, I got into the creative work to never have to make a slide deck in my life. And now it feels like that's like all I'm told to think about. Do you think it's like the most effective thing? sometimes it just seems like it's like a should, like you have to do this, you should do it. But how can you make like we're image makers, we're moving image makers and here we're giving someone a slide and they just click like left or right, right, right. And like, is there a way to sort of subvert that or deconstruct that? Have you been thinking of like how
you can put a new take on this utterly boring corporate document.
Well yeah, mean like for me the most effective thing is getting in the room with somebody and just letting them see how excited I am and how I can see the movie to completion. Like my past work aside from just my excitement on this really helps them kind of shape what this could be or what if they want to be a part of it or not. That's always been my biggest most effective tool. The slideshow is more so to help people.
Remember?
Colin Parker (08:11.67)
every little detail of the project. And like I worked really hard to set the tone in each one. And I found a way to make it more fun. Like I said, like I got a lot of pushback when I was making my pitch deck from other people saying, these slides are like they're creative, but they're a little bit too much. I'm not sure what I was beginning at this. And I'm approaching my slides like I'm approaching my film. It's like I'm not going to give you every single answer. What's fun about
The slide is you figuring it out and you getting what you want out of it. So I feel like that's something that I recently developed in my thinking is that the slide isn't so much a corporate, you know, regurgitation of facts. can be a mood journey. And that way it's a good reflection for you to like see what you're making as well.
Totally. Yeah, I think it's those two things of like returning to that idea of like nobody knows anything. So you have people of different sort of tiers or knowledge levels. Some are your peers. Some are maybe several kind of experience points below you. Some are high above you. But it's still I just think it's like nobody knows anything. So I'd rather take a swing doing something that's within my own whimsy or my own sense of mischief or my own sense of like risk.
then to go, all right, I got to make sure the bio is like slide two and my team is slide eight. And, you know, the intro of care, main characters, slide three, like that type of stuff is like so conservative that it kind of flies in the face of I don't like, I don't care about the structure.
That's why it's so important for me to have the other documents. I can appease anybody that, like any way of your preferred way of taking in information, if it's this or if it's that, I need to have both.
Mishu Hilmy (09:56.3)
Yeah, that makes sense. And also, like, I think the idea of like, your enthusiasm is more of an indicator of like who you are and what kind of energy and focus you can bring in the trust you can bring because I remember maybe last month through some filmmaker networking thing in LA. It was like a filmmaking kind of a business coach and he was talking about
You know, forget about the cold email, do the warm email, like try and make your list of people you want to reach out to. And if you do your homework and go, okay, all right, this distributor, they've worked with someone who's been on my team from two years ago and they also grew up near my hometown. So maybe I'll send an email and go, Hey, we grew up in a similar experience. Do you have 10 minutes to just talk about how you went from growing up in the, you know, bum fuck Alabama and now you're, you know, a developer or executive.
out west or out east to leverage just talking to someone rather than like, I got a name. I got an email address. Here's my PDF. Here's my slide deck and just sending that out cold. Cause yeah, I think he was pretty adamant. I would agree. I've gotten like cold emails and people are asking like my production company for like a million dollars. And I'm like, what, like who are you? So, like how, like how are you developing either your, your homework or your list of people you want to reach out to and potentially partner with.
Yeah, I mean that list has been developing for years. mean, I started writing this in 2020. So since then I've been, I can't help but tell people about it. So unfortunately everybody I know knows what I'm doing. Right, right, right. But, but so that list, I mean, I don't literally rank people, but I get a vibe of like, this guy's really excited or this person like gets it. then that
keeps the conversation going. I'm always trying to, I'm guilty of not doing this enough is like posting and like telling people updates on where we're at with the film. like I said, I've been working on it for four years. So people are like, is this happening or is this what? But you know, films always take a long time. Sean Baker just had this in his acceptance speech at the VGA about how like the average for an indie filmmaker, if you're being generous. And like, so it's not, and you know,
Colin Parker (12:07.48)
There's plenty of stories of people that have worked on their films for a long time. that keeps me know, that's me keep my head up because I know it's a grueling process to get to the place, but it's rewarding at the end and you got to love the journey. like, honestly, being creative with people along the way is fun too. So it's just finding each joy in each step.
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's all about the process. Because if you're not enjoying what you're doing in the present moment, like if you're not enjoying having this conversation talking about the project, if you're not enjoying sending an email, or at least present and can justify the sending of the email if you're not present with being on sets, then what are you doing? Then you're just doing it for the ability to say, oh yeah, I finished this 90-minute piece of moving images with people talking. Like, OK. I'm a big advocate of like,
How can you be as present in the process there? So yeah, given that it's been like, you know, five years of working on this or five plus years, like how are you staying motivated and like, are you allowing yourself little tryst projects of fair projects that aren't all, you know, the art of alchemy?
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've written two shorts in the time that I've still been working on this and I'm actually hoping to shoot one of them this year. Maybe both, but we'll see. But yeah, mean, shooting the short proof of concept in late 2022, we've been imposed on that. So a lot of my energy has been focused on that and being creative with the editing process there because
We were in post for about a year before I found out I was in Chicago International Six Lab. So then once we got in, I wanted to spend that whole year kind of showing it to people and reflecting on how we can make the edit better. And during that time, I was able to get other musicians involved that helped build the score. So that's something that it's always working different muscles when you're working on a project, especially once you're in post. It's a different muscle than pre-production versus production.
Colin Parker (14:10.922)
All of those, aside from having to make money and do all these other jobs, know, take up a lot of my time. It's each thing. I'm lucky that each thing that I've been working on has been able to help grow this in a way. Art of Alchemy has taken a lot of big steps. Thanks to my work as a production assistant, thanks to my videography stuff. Yeah. So like everything I just think of it is all is going towards the same goal. Right.
Yeah, I think the master wastes nothing to sort of paraphrase the Tao Te Ching. So it's just like you're you're just adding potential, right? Potential energy is never wasted. It just keeps building, building until it's used. So I think it's just like building on that potential. So you're you know, do you find that like you
So you have a videography company or just something that you do, whether it's like events or skate videos or, you know, corporate stuff. So do you have like either a production company that's doing that and you're like searching for clients or is it most like word of mouth?
Yeah, I mean, it's mostly word of mouth. It's my company's space gate productions. I've done skate videos. I've done music videos. I just shot a music video last year that I directed and produced. That was really fun. know, like I was really glad to do that. was a very creative project. And then there was something else I made. yeah. I produced a short film that was another proof of concept that my friend Zach was directing. And that went into a crowdfunding campaign last year. So, those were like some of the bigger ones that I did last year that were separate. But yeah.
Aside from that, mostly just like sometimes I shoot weddings. Not a lot, but.
Mishu Hilmy (15:42.446)
Yeah, I can't the pressure like the client the client element of like this is their one. It's just I don't know like the idea of like burning money on a film set is different than burning memories. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, do you find that you'd like right now or where your heads at? Would you prefer to be like doing 90 % directing or is it like I'm fine doing 60 % directing 40 % producing because you said you helped produce a short, you know, earlier. So what's what's been at least, you know, the most
Exactly.
Mishu Hilmy (16:11.732)
engaging for you or that you feel currently most connected to.
Yeah, so one time I was on the set of the shy and I heard a director I was telling a director about how I wanted to be a director and he was like no you don't And he basically he said that you know like directors cutthroat there's ten jobs and a hundred people going after those ten jobs and It's it's constantly a battle. It's like the job is wake up get in twelve fights go to bed It's kind of what he told me but as a producer
Oftentimes you're hiring your friends, your creative problem solving, and you're working towards a goal and it's not like the gun is to your head. So with that in mind, sometimes I really do like producing. Sometimes I like being the person that can connect two dots and then that solves the problem for two people. That my network has made easy. Just knowing the right people, if that's what producing is, I'm all for it.
For my projects, there's like, have, the thing is like, I have these projects that I've been thinking about for so long that I couldn't really see somebody else directing those. So I feel like a compulsion to direct them. So it's not even about like, for me, like the decision to be a director only. It's just about like, there are things that I need to direct and then I want to publish, you know, that'd be fun. If I can make some money, great.
I mean, that makes sense. There's some things around authorship to a degree. If it's more of a centered process versus a decentered process where you're devising a piece or making the piece with your community, think music videos typically can be a little bit more decentered because you have the artists, their band, their collaborators, their entourage, and they're giving input and you're decentering the process versus if you wrote something or co-wrote something or you've been with something, I have a sense of...
Mishu Hilmy (18:04.394)
authority or authorship around this rather than, yeah, this project, I don't know, I don't see myself directing it. I can let it go. Do you also write? I know I think this project is a co-writing thing, but have you written a few more longer or shorter solo pieces?
I mean, like, yeah, I've been writing this for five years and there's been different co-writers at different times and I've always, I love getting notes from people. I think that like I work so much better as a creative when I have somebody to bounce things off of, but I've written a lot of other things too. I've written two features before this feature and then I've shot a couple of short films that I wrote. Basically everything that I've directed, I've wrote. Yeah. So.
Yeah, I relate to that too. think I don't mind the higher gun element of it, but it's just easier to go like, I wrote it. I can be way more flexible. Like, if this, if this scene isn't working, I can get rid of it. Or if the actor has a better line, I can, you know, let them sort of get improve it. When it comes to those other two features, like
What's the experience of like going like, nah, not this one, not that one. this is the one I'm going to commit X number of years. Like how did you organically or inorganically choose to commit or, you know, not necessarily choose to commit. were, you know, blessed to commit to like, so what, like, what's that like for you? You know, what's that experience been like of getting clarity to commit?
Yeah, I mean, well, I think a really important part of my education was I went to school originally for graphic design, dropped out, and then took a year off and just worked. And then I came back to school and went for animation. Then I did animation for two years before I switched to film. And I think that animation background really kind of gave me the ability to think, like, I have a complete blank canvas. What do I want to do?
Colin Parker (19:48.574)
not like what do I have access to. In film, how much you have to like is a first time filmmaker. What do you have access to is your biggest question. in animation, like the whole world is your oyster. So that is what inspired my first feature, which was an animated crazy thing. yeah, so I'm probably not going to make that one anytime soon because it be so expensive. But you know, it was a really deep.
kind of spiritual genre film about like, it was almost an adult swim if it was more serious. So yeah, like that was my first one. And then my second one is a little bit more of an epic coming of age story that I could do, I could be working on now, but for my taste and for what I think that film requires, I want another film under my belt before I put a lot of eggs in that basket because.
Yeah, it'll help bolster that film and it'll grow my experience that I can really do that one tastefully. This film, I spent time thinking about what can I make under my resources, but I didn't let that pigeonhole me. I just let that help me find a little bit of a sandbox to play in. I really feel like both horror helps with that and the punk world that I already have some relationship in is a really cool, setting that I-
Yeah, that can be fun to play in. I wrote a lot around thinking about that, and that's why I feel like this needs to be the first feature because it's got so much going for it already that I have access
Yeah, yeah, I relate to that. Like I think I have a couple of features that I've written a few years back where I'm like, I just don't know if I have the technical know how or the genre know how or the maturity or confidence to pull this off. Maybe one day I could potentially direct it or this might be one I could let go and you know, have someone else do it versus some of the ones that I am more, you know.
Mishu Hilmy (21:41.416)
attached to are up that level where it's like it doesn't seem as overwhelming or the the unknowns don't seem as you know mysterious and like okay this is kind of within the practical world and I can see it. I think the hard thing is also like writing knowing the constraints of the indie world and going like shoot it does alter the creative process of being like maybe I'll instead of cutting to a bunch of different locations I'll just like stick to within a one block radius so that changes it but like what was the experience like of going from
You know, just this infinite blank canvas of animation to then shifting gears into something that's way more practical line up like these need to be buildings or sets that are built. So like how like how is that evolution or how did you know you fall into moving from that that change of I can do anything I want to wait. Maybe that's not the best idea.
Yeah, I mean, I think what that really did was help me push the edge, like not be afraid to do that. Yeah. Like one of my first short films was a sci fi comedy and like we got really crazy. I did all the costumes. like, you know, I did production design and I went pretty crazy with it, even though we we knew we were doing it kind of campy. Right. That helped us like like embrace the campiness of it.
And I think that all that inspiration came from animation because, I just saw the world differently. really, you know what I mean? Like the history of animation and just showing, you know, I love this quote where it's like filmmakers are crazy, but animators are insane. Because it's just so much like, you know, work to really get something done. And yeah, like I really like what, you know, common side effects and I don't know if you've seen that, but like that kind of animation where it's
Yeah, yeah,
Colin Parker (23:26.826)
It's real drama. It's really a thriller and you feel compassion for the characters. Like that is the animation that I always wanted to kind of make and nobody's really doing that now. Nobody was doing that until like recently. I feel like there's a couple. I'm not saying it's never been done, but yeah, like it's just so lacking. And that's why I feel like film needs to even.
fill that void in some way and get more experimental and get more weird. You do things that aren't all naturalistic. That's why my movies are the way they are. Fisheye, my first short film, is rotoscoped, tons of animation. And that's because I just have this compulsion to do something that is not real. is real, but isn't real to this world.
Yeah. I remember, didn't you mention like it took like several days to render that roto, rotoscope short? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think like the, the problem of the culture of image, like motion picture, image making or filmmaking is style. think it's a problem with style where the default is realism versus like, you know, stage or animation. You have the whole gamut of style to play with. You can do almost whatever you want.
I think it took like a few days.
Mishu Hilmy (24:41.4)
versus there's such an expectation. There's the conservatism of like, well, if this is too weird, it won't make money. But there's also the conservatism of like, it'll be too campy or too vulgar or too inhuman cartoonish. And then you have actors who are like, no, I don't want to be big. I don't want to be broad. So there's like lot of, you're pushing up against the lot. But I just recently saw The Monkey, which is so stylish. The performance style is totally kind of a little bit nihilistic detached.
sometimes cartoony, but I think that's interesting from your sort of animation background that you're mindful of like the desire to push style rather than we just do realism, minimalism all the time, all the time.
Yeah, I mean, it's if if that's all I wanted to do, I would have probably made more stuff by now, honestly. Right. And that's something that I kind of kick myself about. Like maybe I should just tone it down and then I could get some work and then my portfolio. You know what I mean? But I just don't think that is just not the the car to cars I have. You know, it's like what what I'm best at is finding something that is out of the box and helping that feel real.
So yeah, that's what I'm gonna stick to.
Totally. That's the thing, it's such a resource intensive creative endeavor. know, with directing, the main way to practice directing is to direct. like how do you, you know, if you want to be an all-star basketball player, you go to practice, you know, five, six days a week and you work on your jump shots, you work on your drills. So like, how do you implement or are mindful of like integrating reps when it comes to say this business?
Colin Parker (26:17.038)
Oh, yeah, no, mean, I think about this. I don't know if you've seen this, the creative discussion with John Cleese.
on our
So really, Yeah, please. Like it's one of my favorite conversations about creativity that I've seen that, I think about all the time. it's something that he states in there is that like there was a I can't quote exactly what the study was, but it took a bunch of different careers and different kinds of people and found that the people that are sometimes excelling in their creative aspect of their field the most are the ones that.
Matic, my sunshine, please.
Colin Parker (26:52.76)
play with an idea the longest, right? So it's like, I totally embrace that where it's like, hey, like I said, I've been working on this for five years and I don't feel pressure to stop playing with it. You know what I mean? I think that like the more I play with it, like even if we, the day of shooting, you know what I mean? You can scare a producer to death by telling them like, we'll figure that out when we're there. But sometimes.
I think there is a bit of a merit to the authenticity that you can find in this moment while you're on set. If you can keep your eyes open, you can be open. You know what I mean? So there's an open mode and a closed mode that you have to switch back and forth between. And I feel like for me, that's the whole thing. The whole process is writing the script, thinking about it, and then doing something else creative that reflects onto that.
So it's just like, there's so much work to be done that it's really easy for me to not feel like lost or confused, just to keep working, you know? And to keep open.
I think when it comes to that openness versus closeness, think planning and preparation are the things that make you most tapped into that potential of openness. I think if you know your shot list, you know your timing, or you know the general key things, then when you're on set, if you see a moment or there's a certain energy or there's just something, a quality of the set deck or just the lighting or the time of day or a performance, you're more likely to say, hey, look, let's burn.
18 minutes to experiment and try this rather than I think you become more rigid if you're like, you know, it's just like different strokes for different folks to use a cliche like, yeah, if you're not prepared, sure, you can be a little bit more improvisational. But I think I'm just like, I can be more tapped in if I know like this is my general time budget and these are like our main priorities. And I was like, all right, well, we got kind of our main priorities or I'm feeling confident that we will get our main priorities. So, yeah, let's take an extra half hour or five minutes to experiment.
Colin Parker (28:51.822)
Yeah, no, totally. and that goes to writing as well. It's so hard to find time and find the energy and the mood to sit down and write, but I think that discipline of at least just having the time blocked out frees you from, you don't have to write. Just have the time to write, sit there, do something related to it if you can, don't get distracted, but constantly know why you're sitting there.
It is too right, you know? That I love. That's helped me immensely because sometimes it can be really hard to like, man, I'm just too tired to sit at the computer that day. another thing that helps really with that is finding co-writers that can help. For me, it's like, owe it to that person now. I brought them on. And now we are, no, it's real endeavor when we sit down and work.
Yeah, I think I'm similar when it comes to like say productions, like I'm socially motivated. So it's like, I'm more likely to, you know, produce a two minute short in the next two months if I email folks saying, hey, here's the casting notice or hey, I'm about to post a cast notice. And then it's like, shoot, I just got 12 actors or 20 emails with like headshots. Then I go, shoot, I don't want to disappoint these these people. Versus like it just becomes like abstract if there isn't for me, at least some social component.
Yeah, yeah, it's like you got to take the leap right before you're completely there, you know, like it's like even with, you know, it's hard when you're raising money and people are like, so when are you shooting this? Yeah. And you got to have a date. You to have like a time frame. And if you don't have that time frame, no one's going to believe you or trust you. And that's even if you like and you have to believe and trust that time, it has to make sense to you. Even if like when you get close to it, you have to move it. Don't like, you know, like
Don't be so married to it that you can't see what's actually needed. But it's important to maintain that kind of structure.
Mishu Hilmy (30:46.446)
That's also what's so frustrating about production is it to me, it's sort of like a chicken and the egg where you want to align your the most elements as possible. But then it's like, well, we can't confirm a date until we get the lead and the lead won't commit until we like have a team or a producer or a date. So it's like, it's just I think that to me is like, don't know if I get I feel anxious about it, but it's like the most anxiety inducing part of like what needs to come first, what needs to align. It's sort of like a waterfall. And then maybe honestly, it's just like
committing to arbitrariness of like, know what, we don't have a lead, but we're just gonna say, we're gonna shoot in June, 2025. Like, we hope we'll get a lead who's good for June 18th, June 28th, 2025.
I chop it up into just be like, we're going to shoot and fall. Yeah. At some point in the fall. Yeah, there's some time there. But yeah, I think that like, yeah, a lot of that is is, you know, got to be flexible. But it's the other thing. If you're not feeling that anxiety, probably not going to be the one creative problem solving it. Because if you're just in a closed mode and you're just like deciding that's going to be it, I don't think that you're you're necessarily thinking about the big
picture at that point. I think it's openness is important there.
Given how sort of uncertain the industry is and how difficult it is, like what keeps you here? Like what keeps you motivated?
Colin Parker (32:15.47)
Let me think. So it's like what keeps me here is the fact that like once you find something you love and that you feel like you're good at, it's hard to say no, even if the ship is sinking. So that's part of it. But another part is I know that like I don't believe theaters are going away. Everybody's talking about, oh, know, AM's theaters aren't going to be around in 20 years. Everyone's going to be watching TV at home. I don't think that's true. I think people love going to the movies. I'm like one of them.
and that keeps me motivated that this industry isn't going to just die off. It's like, yeah, it's going to face ebbs and flows and that's fine because it's art and that's how art goes. Sometimes it's not art. Sometimes there's a lot of trash out in the theater sometimes and that's part of the reason the perception is the way it is. But that's not what I'm watching and that's not what the people I know and care about are watching most of the time. Again, I'm in a bubble in that way where it's like,
This is so not dying to me that I don't even think about that. You know what mean? This is just so, it's so eternal in some ways. Like not that I think that like making a movie is like, that's why you gotta do it so it could be eternal in some people. But it is, know, like, that's what I love about it is that you can pick up a movie from the 50s and watch it and it still kind of like reflects on your experience in some ways. So yeah, that's something that keeps me really emboldened just in our film.
Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, I think it's you know, people have been proclaiming like the demise of cinema and movies since probably the 20s and 30s, and especially since the 50s when the TV came out and the Paramount decision of 1948 happened. So it's been like a common thing. think because it's an uncertain industry, it's easier to like say it's it's going to die. But, you know, opera is not dead. Jazz isn't dead. I think there may be work to me. Worst case scenario is it ends up
relegated to sort of this niche niche experience but I think because you know it's yeah go ahead.
Colin Parker (34:18.03)
I was gonna say like like the big difference that I think of there with when it comes to like opera and jazz like like they are kind of more limited film right stole much potential that is like Untap still yeah, like, know, we're relatively like, you know music has been around much longer than film like, you know,
Film has so much room to grow that I think it's very short-sighted to say that it's near its end even. I get the demise in people's eyes, the demise of how they want to perceive films or what they think films should be. But that's not what film is. Film is always going to be developing and changing. Even like I think the way studios are operating right now with spending like $500 million on one movie that they think is going to be their
know, tent pole movie, I think that's gonna change and dial back because there's, you know, how much bigger can you get?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. mean, it's all like the economics of like, like nobody knows anything. So like, I just think it's, you know, decision makers who say this is like the best practice when there are other ways, you know, I think the future state, who knows, I don't know if I'll live to see it, but maybe one day Paramount will be, you know, reversed by the Supreme Court, and it'll go back to a similar system that was designed to mitigate uncertainty by having the vertical integration of say studios owning theaters, and then they could
build out a slate of 40 movies versus 12. You know, if you have 40 movies, you can make them more affordable, cheaper, as well as there's a more upside versus now everyone's just trying to capture that upside off of these 12 tent poles or these six tent poles and six mid-range movies that it's very, very small pool. Yeah, because you can't determine the demand for any, any one thing. All you can do is go, all right, maybe if we have 40,
Mishu Hilmy (36:10.68)
Two of these or five of these when they pull the slot lever at the casino, people will like.
Right. No, totally. Yeah, it's like, I think, you know, it's funny because George Lucas kind of started the whole thing where it comes to like once they saw you can make you can have merchandise from your movies that really kind of changed studios minds where it's like the money isn't even coming from the movie anymore. It's coming from people buying toys and stuff like that. And that model is not going to go anywhere. I think it serves a purpose in some ways. But I just it's it's not I don't think it's always going to be the most dominant.
Yeah, what degree of sort of caution or responsibility do you feel or think about when it comes to say like your budget or what you're trying to make?
Yeah, I mean, I've always tried to pay people ethically. It's really hard to to build up a budget once you start seeing like, we got like a great camera, great camera department and all this stuff. but you need a DIT. but you need 12 hard drives. but you need this. And then like all the expenses just start to turn up, even though you've got really good resources. That makes it difficult. I've thought of ways of trying to make, you know,
work more equitable by getting people points on the back end, by like working on their projects for free, if they'll work on my projects for free. That kind of stuff is, you know, you got to take it step by step. can't expect anybody to do anything. But I'm lucky to have friends in the industry and friends that support what I'm doing that will work for a reduced rate. then they know I'll do whatever I can for them as well. So I think that that's been the blessing that I have to be where I'm at.
Colin Parker (37:58.168)
But at the same time, like kind of refuse to do what some people do and just not just expect people to take because you're lucky to work on this. This is going to be great. And you're going to be happy that you did it. I if that's how you feel, you can't that's never OK.
Mishu Hilmy (38:38.546)
I mean, yeah, think
Food is a good thing though. It's so important to me at the minimum to have really good food on set. For my first short, I used to work at Costco and I went there after I left and I said, I catched my whole film to them and they said, take a shopping cart filled up with whatever you want for your crew. And so that was a way of getting the food that I thought was gonna be good for everybody on set. yeah.
I think it's for me, it's creativity and consent when it comes to production and realizing like these are all conversations. They make it go a lot longer and take a lot longer. to know, you know, to use creative producing and go, Hey, my goal full, you know, all, know, full disclosure, this is what my goal is. This is how I'm trying to, you know, make the sustainable or mitigate uncertainty and deep risk of like, I want to keep things kind of low.
cost and this is the conversation we're going to have. What works for you? you want to, you know, a below market rate? Do you want to defer? Do you want zero plus points or are you just here because you've never gotten to work with this DP and you've never gotten to work with me and you're just honestly excited to do two days or 10 days there. So I think it's having like mature conversations about what experience and what someone's consenting to versus like defaults exploitation, defaults like.
Yeah, here is your pizza and I'll maybe put you on IMDb in a year and a
Colin Parker (40:03.896)
No, yeah, it's and it's the same thing you do with actors. You know, it's like you sit down and you talk about every day, every detail, everything that you can think of that the experience is going to be like as a courtesy to them, just so that there's no surprises because they're at the end of the day, they're trusting you, you know, and that's what the whole crew is doing. So it's yeah, that's something that's so great about the industry is like, you know, the vibes. Yeah, everybody can have such good.
energy and that all builds on each other's energy and you can feel it when you're making something but it's the same thing if you have one person in that mix that's destroying the energy then you're in trouble you got to find that weak link and do something about it like it takes it or have them leave yeah
Yeah, I think a lot of it's like setting those expectations. And if you like, that's the thing, if you don't have consensual conversations, or if you're not having candid conversations at the beginning at pre production or development, then there's that risk of like, you know, people feeling jilted or getting resentful. But here's the thing, you can also set expectations and commit to expectations. And then day three of shoot, you forget about them. And someone's like, wait a minute, that's not the expectation we set like you're yelling at PA is like we agreed in our in our head department had meeting like we're
It's we're making something. We're not like, know, it's not that serious.
So true. Yeah, and I've been, you know, I think even having the experience of being a PA on set can help you be a better director for that exact reason or a better producer just because, you you see the grueling process that everybody even at the lowest totem pole has to go through. So if you don't have sympathy, empathy, like care about that person, then that's, not gonna be, you know, you're not gonna be able to build that network.
Colin Parker (41:54.494)
as efficiently.
Yeah, it just gives me thinking about like sort of ego elements where it's like I am more important than the people on this set or this project is more important than the people are impacted by it. like, you know, how do you, you know, keep like, how do you address the spirit of ego? Like, how are you mindful of it? Like, what, know, do you think about it when it comes to say, like, creative endeavors?
Well, you know, I think about it a lot, especially when the topic of overtime comes up. Like we, you know, like we scheduled a 12 hour day. We're trying our best to get the 12 hour day. If we don't get these shots, does the film fall apart? You know what I mean? And who do you owe it to at that point? Do you owe it to your crew that you promised a 12 hour day or do you owe it to the film that all of this is riding on to get the shots that you need? You know, and that's why it's like money at the end of the day.
is that contingency, the ability to make it up to people and do the right thing. And if you're working on a super small budget, then sometimes you have to bite the bullet one way or another and it's gonna suck, you know? But I think that like, that's why it's, you gotta be lean for that reason. Because if you're not lean, then you're guaranteed to be in a position like that.
I have my own thoughts on that. Like I'm adamantly opposed to like a 12 hour day and pretty, pretty opposed to like a 10 hour day. And that's, you know, that's just me being sort of, you know, academic about it because, know, the, science, the science of it, the psychology of it, it's like no human can perform at peak performance levels beyond like three to four hours. Right. So, you know, you're not going to get the best from anyone on hour 13 versus hour 11. So like,
Mishu Hilmy (43:38.786)
To me that I don't know. Maybe I think I might be too naive about it. like, why, why do we, you know, we plan, but like we have these plans, but why is the plan predicated on a 12 hour day versus like an eight hour day? Like I get it. It's sort of industry standard to a degree, but you know, how is that acceptable?
Well, I mean, you know, it's funny because everybody has their own reasons to accept it. Some people want to make a bunch of money as fast possible and then not work for a month or two. And I get that perspective for a PA. If I was working eight hour days, I probably couldn't afford to do this job. So so there's those elements. You know, if we had better pay, I'd be all for eight hours. But if we had better pay and we had eight hours, some of these productions wouldn't be able to run. And that's because the
the industry's built that way. And so it's a foundational thing that is a problem for sure. think that like, PAs unionizing is a great step to like addressing some very concerning problems with, I mean, like I've been working 15 hour days. You know what I mean? Like, so, so I trust me, I get that sometimes, you know, if it's, if it's a one or two day production.
as PA and I get it, we're dealing with the sun. If the sun is a major element in what we're shooting, I can understand the rationale for wanting a 12 hour day. And that's totally acceptable for me on a case by case basis. Other times people abuse that. They take that and then they apply it to a four month shoot that we could make it five months, but we're gonna make it four because sun.
Yeah, I mean I think about because I just sometimes I'll just get into weird arguments with Chad GPT or just conversations when I'm like bored because similar to like the restaurant industry and like I'm glad that Chicago, know or yeah Chicago County passed so like, you know, there's no sub minimum wage law right in the next five years if you work at a restaurant you will be paid the Cook County minimum wage versus I think what it was like seven dollars an hour or something like that, you know, and like the federal is like two bucks or a dollar an hour. So I think the
Mishu Hilmy (45:36.846)
restaurant industry, my thought is like, if you can't afford your workers, you should not have a restaurant. And I think it's a little bit different, but similar with like image making, where if you can't, you know, reasonably make this thing, you know, it's probably best not to exist at a certain scale. But you know, that's, have artistic expression. That's where it gets like the thoughts around, you need to make the budget make sense for what the material is. it's like, yeah.
Asking someone to do a 15 hour day for like an experimental, a hardcore, not rated, like weird thing to me doesn't make sense because it doesn't fit the ability for it to like, you know, make
money. Yeah, no. And I've worked on productions that were TV shows that we all did 10 hour days. And people are mindful of that and trying their best to change it. I think the expectations are coming from the top down. then to compete with those big industry people, you have to almost have similar expectations. It's a cultural thing at that point.
But to me, it's like the ethics of the industry and that's where it's like the individual. how do I, do I just sort of reinforce this culture of cowardice, right? I think the same themes are how like abusers sort of pervaded and maybe still do pervade. So I think it's tough when you're just one PA, like you're not going to be the one viva la resistance and destroy it. But the question is like,
But no, it's having these conversations though, right? Like it's getting, changing the culture. You can't just do that by putting on one short film either. Even if I have one short film, we all work eight hour days and now the culture's fixed. That's not gonna happen either. I do totally agree with what you're saying that it's like the necessity for it is a mirage. It's really not a necessity. Sometimes it can be appropriate.
Mishu Hilmy (47:19.15)
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (47:31.438)
It's, mean, all things are context driven, right? Like if you're like, look, we're about, like this is the thing, like we're so close to it. Is everyone okay doing an extra two hours? It's not ideal. If you do it a couple of times in a production, not bad, but if you're doing it like every day, then some things, clearly someone doesn't know how to plan or maybe like we know we didn't budget for it, but at the end of the day, it's like the, it's the people who are benefiting from it are the, you know, the entertain.
the, you know, blammer, it's a sort of distribution cutting glamour. It's to keep costs low. So it's just like weird of like, know, yeah, to be, I'll let me like, maybe one day I'll be confronted with the issue of like, yes, let me exploit my laborers and you know, get them to do it. But yeah, it's just something that kind of how did, you know, it starts with the seed, right? The seed of just getting people mindful of it. And hopefully generation over generation, there will be people that I can't, I'm not going to tolerate this, but then again, there are people who are like,
What you get me a free meal and I have the credit. Yeah, I'll do. I'll do 16 hours.
And that's the thing about this industry specifically. It's like the reason AI is able to infiltrate our industry faster than any other is because everybody unfortunately sees our industry as a privilege to be a b****. It's not like an essential good in a lot of people's minds. And that's why we sometimes get the short end of the stick when it comes to working. Yeah, it sucks. It sucks, but it's also like there's
Yeah
Colin Parker (48:59.36)
I get why they feel that way because they probably hate their jobs.
Yeah, I mean, to be sort of an executive is a tough job because nobody knows anything. how like, how are you staying like healthy and optimistic and like, yeah, at least given sort of what what the trades say or sort of what the what's in the ethers of like doom and gloom?
Yeah, mean like I to stay healthy. mean like I cook nice. That's like that. I don't work out enough. You know, I was pretty cool. I don't know. It's like there there are trends in the industry that take a toll on you. Like I'm a little under weather right now because I've been yelling outside in the cold all week. But but I think that like the down time really gives you the in a inability or the ability.
Yeah, fu-
Colin Parker (49:49.464)
to take a step back and just do stuff for yourself. And that's when I really find the chance to do that. I'm the kind of person that likes it when things are always changing and developing and I'm doing new things all the time. So this industry has given me that. I'm always working on a different project or doing a different thing. But yeah, it also gives you the ability to choose yourself over your job, like that other jobs don't let you do.
Yeah, think yeah, there's the sort of blessing the curse of it sort of the downtime between gigs, the recharge time, but also because it's like this business changes like every, every month, every year, every five years, every 10 years, you know, like how is TikTok changing the industry? How are all these things changing? So that to me is like, I have a voracious curiosity for like learning and appetite for all that. So it's exciting, but it also makes the economics kind of scary. But that's, think life in general, there's no, there's no certainty.
to a degree and then for your creativity, do you actively inject risk? Are you mindful? How do you implement your point of view or risk taking when it comes to this endeavor? Because you could easily be making a schlock if you wanted to. is that a core tenet for your approach? I'm just curious.
think risk comes from taste for me. You know what I mean? When it comes to my creative risk, if it's something that I feel I haven't seen before or that I love and want to see more of, if that outweighs the risk, then it's worth it. You know what I mean? And if we can do it safely. But if I really feel like it's central to the theme, to the style, and we can do it safely,
then I will implement it. You know what I mean? But if it's something that is you know, shock value, or if it's purely the fact that, I haven't seen someone do heroin on, you know, like this because, you know, it's like, it's, you can get really kooky with it when you're just trying to be a risk taker. And I don't think that always is the best result either. It's like, I don't think of it, you know, but it constantly comes up when I'm stippling ideas.
Mishu Hilmy (52:03.586)
Yeah, yeah, there's yeah, that's sort of especially when you're writing and you have like the freedom and you come from an animation background and people who animate they're kind of insane. So you have like the mind where you can go like really zany strange places. But I also think in terms of risk, like that sense of nervousness, that vulnerability. So like, are there, know, things that you like, no one would know but you that are revelatory. And you're like, oh, shoot, if I write this scene or make this thing.
I feel really nervous about it. might not be like a dangerous stunt, but you're like, this feels like it's revealing a perspective or an element of myself that I feel nervous about.
Yeah, I I think you have to be true to the story also. There's a scene in the movie that could be controversial, could be risque to shoot and to put out, but is it central to the theme of the story? And does it drive the characters to a place that we need them to be at?
the conclusion, think if those answers are yes, and you feel like it's the best way of going, then you gotta do it, whether it's a risk to you or not. You have a duty to yourself and to the film to do it correctly and to be very thoughtful of it, but I think if you're too afraid to take risks, you're not gonna do anything great. And it's not, you know what I mean? It's not even about being great, it's just about being authentic, really. It's like, it true to what you're doing? Then that's
Like yeah, cause like why why be in this very difficult industry if you're going to be just as fearful as if you're, you know, doing data entry, right? And you're in a conservative corporate job. Well, Colin, yeah, this was lovely chatting. Thank you so much for sharing and getting into it.
Colin Parker (53:48.526)
Of course. Yeah, thank you. Great for talking to you.
you
Mishu Hilmy (53:57.464)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. Alrighty, a little bit of a pitch.
for some mischief, some play, some practice. This is a prompt around just pitching. Say it out loud, here you go. Pitch a current project or idea out loud to yourself, to an imaginary friend, to a real friend, to a voice memo for 60 seconds, and then jot down the three most exciting things you heard yourself say or what you think the most engaging things are. just practice that, give it a try, pitch something, record it, write it down.
Tell it to a wall, an imaginary friend, a real friend, and try and clock the moments or words that you found were most engaging or interesting. All right, have a good rest of your day and I'll see you next time.