How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships

Our guest today is Linda Murphy, founder of the Relationship and Divorce Counseling Center where she and her colleagues work to help others through difficult relationship transitions. Sometimes, that means coaching through the divorce process. But sometimes, it means catching the relationship before divorce becomes the destination.

Show Notes

Our guest today is Linda Murphy, founder of the Relationship and Divorce Counseling Center where she and her colleagues work to help others through difficult relationship transitions. Sometimes, that means coaching through the divorce process. But sometimes, it means catching the relationship before divorce becomes the destination.

When should you start counseling? What signs are you watching that you might be able to save the marriage with a little help? How do you know it’s over? Linda’s experience working with couples gives her a perspective on divorce that is optimistic, not dedicating to saving marriages, but navigating conflict in a way that might just help you illuminate a new path in your own relationship.

Links & Notes

  • (00:00) - Welcome to How to Split a Toaster
  • (00:26) - Introducing Linda Murphy, Relationship and Divorce Counseling Center
  • (00:46) - Helping Before They Get Divorced
  • (03:42) - Creating an Environment for the Couple to Make Relationship Decisions
  • (05:23) - Counseling's Not Just for Before Divorce
  • (06:48) - When People Try Counseling
  • (08:24) - Motivation's Required
  • (10:18) - Reading the Signs and Signals as a Counselor
  • (11:55) - Reading the Signs From Within the Marriage
  • (14:23) - Walking Through the Process
  • (15:41) - Never Taking Sides
  • (17:34) - Continuing the Process
  • (18:30) - Schemas
  • (22:37) - Rejection Sensitivity & Unrealistic Expectations
  • (26:25) - Barrier to Counseling
  • (28:01) - Need for Counseling Does Not Necessarily Lead to Divorce
  • (29:39) - Counseling as a Gate
  • (30:59) - When Does Counseling End
  • (32:43) - Identifying Your Values
  • (35:38) - Transitioning to Individual Counseling
  • (39:36) - Wrapping Up

Creators and Guests

Host
Pete Wright
Podcaster and co-host, Pete Wright brings years of marriage and a spirit of curiosity to the divorce process. He's spent the last two decades interviewing experts and thinkers in emotional healing and brings that with him to the law, divorce, and saving relationships in the process.
Host
Seth R. Nelson
Seth Nelson is the founding attorney and managing partner at NLG Divorce & Family Law. He is a Tampa-based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems.
Producer
Andy Nelson
Hailing from nearly 25 years in the world of film, television, and commercial production, Andy has always had a passion for storytelling, no matter the size of the package.

What is How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships?

Seth Nelson is a Tampa based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems. In How to Split a Toaster, Nelson and co-host Pete Wright take on the challenge of divorce with a central objective — saving your most important relationships with your family, your former spouse, and yourself.

Pete Wright:

Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. Today, we're gonna talk about the bread.

Seth Nelson:

Welcome to the show, everyone. I'm Seth Nelson. I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Our guest today is Linda Murphy. She's the founder of the Relationship and Divorce Counseling Center where she and her colleagues work to help others through difficult relationship transitions.

Seth Nelson:

Linda, welcome to the toaster.

Linda Murphy:

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Pete Wright:

This is you you know, this this podcast is dedicated to saving relationships, and we we like to say that we we try to focus on all the relationships, not just the relationship with your potentially soon to be former spouse, but, you know, all the relationships in your life. But it it is fairly rare that we talk about what happens before the divorce process starts. Right? We everything we've talked about really is you know you're on this path to divorce. It's gonna end.

Pete Wright:

It's difficult. It's volatile, whatever the case. But you're here today to help us talk about the before stage, that part of the relationship where you're not sure if divorce is the outcome you think it might be, but is there something to salvage? What how do you guide people in your capacity as a counselor when they're struggling in their marriage and just don't know how to chart a path forward?

Linda Murphy:

People come to me for individual counseling and couples counseling when they're trying to make that decision. Right? So sometimes the person comes as an individual and they say, I can't I can't fathom how this could move forward, And I need help to just wrap my head around what I could possibly do on my end to save this marriage. Or I need somebody to help me to just look at what has happened in the marriage and tell me whether or not it's possible to move forward. So that's, like, on the individual end of counseling where people are coming for that reason.

Linda Murphy:

And then I have also, like you were saying, the couples that come in and maybe one or both of them have an inkling that the relationship is at the end. And sometimes, one partner is pretty sure and the other partner has no clue. So it just, you know, I get I get all sorts of, variety in that. And then it's my job to create a safe space for these couples to come and discuss this very big decision that they have to make. And it's not easy.

Linda Murphy:

And a lot of counselors that do couples counseling do not enjoy this work. And so they tend to send them my way when they hear that the couple is interested in, you know, maybe getting a divorce.

Pete Wright:

Wow. You have you corner the market on tough divorce counseling situations.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. And and I really enjoy it. So for me, you know, that's not a hard conversation to be in on. But for a lot of couples' counselors, they pride themselves on saving marriages. Right?

Linda Murphy:

And so to have somebody walk in the door already thinking that that might be the outcome, that's pretty discouraging.

Pete Wright:

Mhmm.

Seth Nelson:

And that was gonna be my question is because I think a lot of couples counselors, they view their job as saving the relationship. And I hate those terms, saving, not I just think that we're all on this journey and and sometimes people come into our lives for a short period of time and some a very long period of time and more intimate and longer and they're married or whatever the case may be. So that was gonna be one of my questions to you is when they are talking to you, you don't have any preconceived outcomes. You're creating a space for them to have an open dialogue on whether or not they wanna continue in this relationship. And if so, what needs to change to make that happen?

Seth Nelson:

Is that a fair assessment?

Linda Murphy:

100%. And, you know, I do I do agree with you. I think sometimes when a couple's counselor is working with a couple, and let's say they save the relationship, everything gets better, they pat themselves on the back of, oh, look what I did. And I have no ownership in it at all. Right?

Linda Murphy:

Like, I am going to use research based techniques to help the couple. But really, whether or not they stay together or not, it's it doesn't have a lot to do with me and has a lot more to do with, you know, what they're wanting for their life. So if in the end, they decide to not stay together, I I can't beat myself up for that. Just the same as I can't pat myself on the back if they were to stay together. It's So about their life.

Seth Nelson:

So on these research based techniques is what I understand you use to help people have an open conversation about whether or not to stay in the relationship. So if one of our listeners is already getting a divorce, some things we're talking about today might be helpful in their next relationship. Is that is that fair?

Linda Murphy:

100%. And that's where, like, I also do post divorce counseling. Right? So or during the divorce counseling for couples and individuals as well. So what that might look like is an individual comes to me, they just realize that divorce is inevitable.

Linda Murphy:

Maybe they're sleeping on their friend's couch or they're trying to figure out what life is going to look like, and they're devastated. And they're trying to wrap their head around this big life changing transition, and I can help guide them through that. In addition to that, couples will come to me knowing that they already want to get a divorce. And before they're even talking to lawyers, they just kinda wanna know what is this gonna look like. And, you know, what what should we even be talking about now before we go see a lawyer?

Linda Murphy:

And so I can have a lot of those conversations with them, again, creating that safe space to talk about things that are really uncomfortable.

Pete Wright:

Seth, I I got a question for you. When how often in this light, how often do people come to you having already gone through a discernment process like this, like like Lynn just talking about.

Seth Nelson:

One of the questions I always ask is, have you been to counseling? You know, is there anything you want to do or try that you haven't so you can put your head on the pillow at night to say, I've done everything I can to make this relationship work. Yeah. And then then they'll usually say for my kids or for my religious beliefs. But inevitably, it's for what's in their heart, right, in in their core.

Seth Nelson:

Okay? And I will hear, yes, we've tried. No, my partner will not go.

Pete Wright:

Mhmm. That's a sign in itself.

Seth Nelson:

Right. That's a problem.

Pete Wright:

That's telling.

Seth Nelson:

Then but sometimes, which happens, we will file for divorce. And then the partner will be like, I'll go to counseling.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah.

Seth Nelson:

And so Linda's had that. Right?

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, even in just regular couples counseling, you will find that a lot of people are going past the point of return. Right?

Linda Murphy:

So maybe they should have gone 2 years prior, and now there's so little motivation to change. So much hurt has been caused. So much trust is broken that I mean, it takes a lot to be able to fix it. And, specifically, that motivation piece is so important. That if there's not enough motivation in either partner, and sometimes it just takes one partner to have it.

Linda Murphy:

And I always tell that partner, you've gotta put on your superhero cape and do all of the work because your partner's checked out.

Seth Nelson:

If someone's already checked out, is it ever getting them back? Are they checking back in?

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, you can absolutely check back in, especially if there's empathy for the partner along the way. Right?

Linda Murphy:

So, you know, let's say that your partner has disappointed you over and over and over. Well, if that partner's the one with the energy to change the relationship and keep it going, just seeing your partner do some of the things, even just showing up for counseling can inspire the motivation on the other partner's behalf to, like, really start themselves. And yeah. I mean, I just I will let the partner who has to wear that superhero cape know I'm gonna be hard on you. You're going to have to do it all, and I'm going to be hard on you because you're paying me to help save this relationship.

Linda Murphy:

And that's all I've got because

Seth Nelson:

With that too, they also get to say, I'm gonna put on that cape, and I am gonna fight the fight. I'm gonna, you know, be this superhero. But, ultimately, they also have a decision to be like, I'm done. I'm putting in all this effort, and I can't get the my partner to take one step. Right?

Linda Murphy:

Right. Right. 100%. And that happens where the partner is just too far gone. And it's it's sad.

Linda Murphy:

What But

Seth Nelson:

what what does that look like? I mean, Pete's been happily married for years. He can't imagine any of this even happening. Right, Pete?

Pete Wright:

Well, yeah. I mean, I just just thinking about that. Like, there are I I'm I imagine knowing full well that every relationship is a unique and special snowflake, but I imagine that there are signs and signals that you look for when you're working with a couple or with individuals that'll tell you, hey. This is the you're on the road to to you need we need to call it, you know, flag on the field. Or, you know, I know it's hard right now, but what I'm seeing is there's hope.

Linda Murphy:

Yes. And I would say that I can always see hope unless there's some sort of abuse going on. When there's abuse, I can't work with you. And that's not just like, I don't feel like it. It's not safe to work with a couple if there's abuse going on.

Pete Wright:

Well and you just you just, dropped the podcast, legal podcast trigger word. If there is abuse going on, please call 911. Please call your local authorities. Make sure you get yourself into a safe, situation. There are resources to help.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. 100%. So I will then if I see abuse going on, I will then say, these are your resources. This is what I suggest that you do. There are counselors that I can, you know, refer out to that work with people who are abusive and can give me the heads up of, like, okay, I think this person's ready for couples counseling again.

Linda Murphy:

Then I might bring them back in again.

Seth Nelson:

So back to these signs that Pete was kind of referring to. As a counselor, you see it. Like you're trained for it, you work with it daily, but if you're in a relationship or you're post divorce and you're in a new relationship, what signs should you look for? How do you even know you should look? I mean, a lot of people tell me, oh, I just thought we were going through a hard time.

Seth Nelson:

Just like Pete said, all couples go through a hard time. How how do you know the difference between we're just going through a hard time and, oh my god, this ship's about to crash into these rocks? Yeah.

Linda Murphy:

I mean, it's different for everybody. Right? I some people have been in relationships for lifetimes that have been miserable, and they wouldn't look back on it and go, I wish I had left. They maybe found value in staying together in some way, shape, or form. So I, again, I always keep the hope unless there's abuse.

Linda Murphy:

But if I see that both people are actively working to not fix the relationship, that is also assigned to me. Not that there's no hope, but that couples counseling is not the tool that's going to help them. So in those cases, I will refer out to other counselors for individual therapy just to kind of work on really understanding. Do you want to be in this relationship? Because sometimes people will pretend.

Linda Murphy:

Right? That's that's really the only other time. Abuse, and then when somebody is pretending to do the work of couples counseling, but they're not actually doing it.

Pete Wright:

They they show up to meetings with you, but it's obvious that they are not flossing between sessions.

Linda Murphy:

No. Exactly. Exactly. And there's you know, for me

Seth Nelson:

think we're gonna get, like, a 1,000 downloads just from now. I feel it coming, Pete.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. That's the title too. We just locked in the title.

Linda Murphy:

I love it. Love it.

Seth Nelson:

Yeah.

Linda Murphy:

But there's there's I usually, no matter what, can find hope in any relationship as long as the couple wants me to continue to have the hope. It's I find, for me, it's not my decision to make. And again

Seth Nelson:

Take me take me through that. Pete and I are having troubles. We're having marital difficulties. We're in your office.

Pete Wright:

You just don't know what it's like to work with this man.

Seth Nelson:

First, I'd like to say, you see Pete did something wrong. He's blaming it all on me. In your point Typical. You need to work on yourself. Is that right, Linda?

Linda Murphy:

That's correct.

Pete Wright:

Okay. Deflection. Deflection.

Linda Murphy:

So the first session, I always bring the couple in together, and I just observe what it looks like as they're interacting and how they are talking about their relationship with the other person in the room. And I find out information about the major issues that have gone in on any traumatic situations and, you know, what their love story was. Then the next two sessions, I always meet with them individually, and I let them know that that's the time that you get to talk about your partner without having to worry about hurting his or her feelings. And that's when you really get to see what the experience of the person is. And on my end, my goal is to try to connect with their experience because that allows me to if I can fully empathize with their experience, it allows me to never take sides.

Linda Murphy:

Right. Which can be horrible for couples counseling. If your couples counselor seems to obviously side with 1 or the other person.

Seth Nelson:

Hear that all the time too much counseling, but

Pete Wright:

It sounds so ridiculous to hear you say it. Like, why would a counselor ever do that? But we hear that all the time Yes. When it's obvious.

Linda Murphy:

And what I always tell them in that first session too is if you ever feel like I'm doing that, I want you to tell me you're feeling that way because I want to be able to have a chance to voice to you why I'm doing that. And then when I am doing you remember we were talking about the superhero thing. When I kinda go hard on the superhero, I will, like, look at them and go, I know how hard this is. I wish I didn't have to do this. To keep them recognizing that this is not me trying to bully you into thinking you are the problem.

Linda Murphy:

This is the only tool I have. And and the the other thing that drives me nuts too just to to go to that is when people come to me and they say, we've tried couples counseling and it didn't work. So now we're here for divorce counseling. It breaks my heart too because sometimes you just need to try a new counselor. Maybe the counselor wasn't the right fit.

Linda Murphy:

And I I'm not saying that the counselor was horrible, but it's like finding a best friend. You have to really trust the person. And if you don't trust them, then things like feeling like the counselor's taking one side or the other does happen.

Pete Wright:

Becomes really easy to to make up some stories that Yes. Feel really true.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. Yeah. So and then so I meet with them individually. I get that sense of, you know, what's happening internally for each person, trying to understand their perspective. And then we come back together and I talk through what I believe the biggest issues are in their relationship and get feedback from whether or not I'm on the right track.

Seth Nelson:

And this is a hunch that I have on that, Linda. They're not the issues that they came in

Linda Murphy:

with. Right. Yeah. Because

Seth Nelson:

the issue they're talking about. Those are the symptoms. Right? That that what they'll express will be the symptoms to the real issue.

Linda Murphy:

Right. Right. It's it's like the joke, it's never about the dishes. And so it's my job to, like I said, really get in touch with the individual's feelings and help them to be able to express those in a different way. And, in addition to that, I help them to understand what schemas, and I'll explain what schemas are, but what schemas are impacting their behaviors.

Linda Murphy:

So I would describe schemas as kind of like if you put on lenses, like glasses. Right? And the glasses are all of a sudden changing how you view the world. That's what a schema is. So, for example, somebody might have an abandonment schema.

Linda Murphy:

So they're at a party with their spouse, everything's going fine, their spouse decides to go over and talk to a new group of people, they stay away for too long, and now their partner who might have an abandonment schema from childhood, these sunglasses come on and start to cloud their view of the situation. Where they were once having a great time. All of a sudden, they're seeing that their partner doesn't love them, doesn't care about them, doesn't even wanna hang out with them at this party. And now this story has been created about how awful the partner is. And so I help them to identify what those schemas are so that they can get to know each other's schemas.

Linda Murphy:

And, hopefully, when these things come up instead of it being like, he abandoned me at this party. She can look at it differently in those situations and go, oh my gosh. There's my schema. There it is. Yeah.

Linda Murphy:

Here it is. He's not even doing anything, and I'm angry.

Pete Wright:

It gets back to just how much I and I think this this is might be an assumption, at least, that I've run into in my rigorous empirical, research, that that couples counseling or relationship slash divorce counseling is about the relationship, but, I I wanna reinforce the relationship is about how you approach this this marriage as an individual.

Linda Murphy:

Right.

Seth Nelson:

Yeah. You know I think this schema point is a very good point. Yeah. And and I'll just share that. I know that I have inclusion issues, I call them.

Pete Wright:

What is that?

Seth Nelson:

Yeah, I know. I'd like to be included or invited or considered. So Mhmm. And now this comes up with my girlfriend all the time, and it's just the way we communicate. And I'll, so sometimes she'll say something like, oh, I might be taking this trip with my girlfriends or they're they're planning something really fun.

Seth Nelson:

And I'll say, well, I thought we might have had something planned or she's take And I it's not like I wanna be invited to go out with her girlfriends. That's not what I'm saying. It's like, but now you're not spending time with me when I thought we were gonna be spending time, so I'm not included in, in your life for that moment. And she's gonna say, no. I'm just saying, I wanna make sure that it didn't conflict with the time that we were gonna go on vacation.

Seth Nelson:

But that's not what I heard the first time. Sure. Yeah. I heard the first time she was choosing her friends to hang out with, not me. I'm not included in her life.

Seth Nelson:

Yeah. How did I do, Linda?

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. Perfect. There's your schema. Right?

Seth Nelson:

Yeah. So I need you like last week before we got in that fight, not this week, you know. There was no fight, you know.

Linda Murphy:

Oh my gosh. Yeah. One of my schemas is, I will put on the lenses of wanting to do things right, and it's really hard for if somebody gives me feedback of not doing it right, that it makes me feel bad about myself. So any feedback, I have to always remind myself that they're like, you know, my husband isn't saying that to make me feel dumb in this moment. Right?

Linda Murphy:

It's like that it's it's just the schema that comes over me, and his intentions are not to bring that schema up within me. His intentions are simply just to point out that I forgot to close the garage door. Right? But for me, it's like, oh, I didn't do it right, or I forgot, or, you know, and it just it eats at me with that. So we all have them.

Pete Wright:

We all have them. I got I got one. You guys each have one. I wanna tell one. Okay.

Pete Wright:

Mine's, rejection sensitivity. Like, I and I think it's part of what I do is, you know, when you put creative works like podcasts out of the world, this is what leads me to perseverate for weeks on the one negative comment about the one person who doesn't like how I articulate my p's or something ridiculous. Like that

Seth Nelson:

And I do find that very annoying.

Pete Wright:

Oh, see what you're doing there, you troll? And so I'll think about that for a month, and I'll completely disregard all of the the good stuff that comes out of people whose whose lives are are in any way helped by what we do. And so I am that that RSD, that rejection sensitivity is those those lenses are dark when I bring those down. Yeah.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. And, you know, in moments like that, just being able to go, if I took these lenses off right now, how might I see this differently?

Pete Wright:

Yeah.

Linda Murphy:

This exact situation, could I see it a different way?

Seth Nelson:

So Because Pete, in all seriousness, is that why you always read the one star reviews on Google first on other product?

Pete Wright:

A 100%. Absolutely. We go to the one stars first. And and I don't I I don't imagine I'm alone, and I imagine this this rears its head in the the counseling process. Right?

Pete Wright:

The the idea that any conversation, that becomes in any way critical between partners, might be subject to rejection sensitivity and magnifying negative commentary between partners wildly out of scope.

Linda Murphy:

Right. And, you know, the the term I'd use for it is unrealistic expectations of yourself and maybe others too. Oftentimes, people who have that schema, and so we share that one. Even though mine may look slightly different, that is actually under that same umbrella of just unrealistic expectations of yourself. And everybody has this.

Linda Murphy:

Everybody. And so getting to know your partners and then having them get to know yours, you can start to, you know, you see kind of that cloud coming over your partner's face and you can go, what was it? Which schema was it? What did I do there?

Seth Nelson:

Right. What nerve did I just touch? What button did I push? Because

Linda Murphy:

Right.

Seth Nelson:

Unless you're in a really bad relationship or in an argument where the partner is actually trying to be mean to you and to be hurtful in what they say, Generally speaking, I know that my girlfriend never is intentionally trying to exclude me.

Linda Murphy:

Right.

Seth Nelson:

She's never intentionally trying to hurt me. And it's more about my shit than anything that she's doing. I mean and then I'll get that look and she'll be like and she knows the look. Right? But it and she what did I do?

Seth Nelson:

I'm I'm just try I'm cracking a joke. I'm trying to make you laugh. And I'll be like, nah, it, it's me on this one, like, or So it it's But we can communicate about it. And when you actually talk about the exchange of information and how you're communicating, it immediately changes the subject. Because I'm no longer talking about not feeling included or feeling excluded.

Seth Nelson:

I'm talking about how we communicate with each other because and she says, no, I wasn't trying to exclude you. Just the opposite. I was trying to include you in my life by figuring out when it all works for all of us. And I know that you told me you had a trial that month, so I'm trying to figure it out. I know you'll be working.

Seth Nelson:

So just talking about the interaction, I think, is helpful.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. And I I I think we're getting to the we we've just sort of painted the answer to this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. In your experience, Linda, when you when you come up with people who are in the divorce process but haven't gone through counseling, what usually is the barrier for them to actually take that leap and go talk to a professional like yourself and actually do the work before the divorce?

Linda Murphy:

It blows my mind. Right? Because I can see the value in it. So I would just say, wondering what other people will think that they can't do it on their own.

Pete Wright:

Yeah.

Linda Murphy:

I mean, and yet they're going to get a divorce, so everybody will know anyway that they couldn't do it. It it just Well,

Pete Wright:

you you kinda look like you you hire Seth because you can't get a divorce on your own. So why would you not hire somebody to help you, you know, live together, in a relationship?

Linda Murphy:

Right. And and we all don't have perfect examples of parents that show us how to manage conflict. You know, we're we're all human. And even for myself, if I were thinking about divorce or having major issues in my relationship, I know a lot about relationships, but I can't be objective, you know. I I would need somebody else to give me feedback about what I could do differently.

Seth Nelson:

Which plays right into your not perfect problem, so that's gonna be hard.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. Exactly.

Seth Nelson:

But what's interesting to me about this, about people not wanting to go to counseling, 1, is there is, I think, a fear of that is just a step along the way to divorce. It's almost like you check the box. Oh, we tried counseling, now we get divorced. So if I never try counseling, we'll never get divorced.

Pete Wright:

Check your local jurisdictions. Isn't it required in many states to go through counseling in order to like, it's a gate you have to cross that mandated. Right?

Seth Nelson:

Not in Florida. I don't know of any jurisdiction that requires counseling. There are jurisdictions that say you have to wait so long after you file. There's a separation period before you can get divorced. In Florida, you have to allege in your filings with the court that the marriage is irretrievably broken.

Seth Nelson:

So any celebrity that you see in the paper getting divorced in Florida, that's gonna be the quote, irretrievably broken, which I laugh at. Yeah. Because it's a required thing you have to say to get a divorce.

Pete Wright:

Yeah.

Seth Nelson:

Now in Florida, the judge will ask you, is there anything I can do to help you save your marriage such as going to counseling? And if you say, yeah, judge, that might help, you can file a motion and it's up to the judge to say, yeah, I'm gonna send you guys to counseling. But the judges all are human. They look at the other person and say, is it gonna help your side? And they're like, nope.

Seth Nelson:

I'm out. And the judge is like, I'm not gonna order you. It takes 2.

Pete Wright:

But but it goes to the point, like, counseling becomes a gate that you have to, at some point, address. And that doesn't do a lot for, you know, the reputation of predivorce marriage saving counseling.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. I mean, I like like you were saying, I think that when you are asking your partner if they're willing to go to counseling, you are acknowledging that there's a really big problem. And if you want to avoid feeling like there's a really big problem, then you're not gonna do that. Or if you've gotten any feedback from your partner that that's not a good idea or that it's shameful in some way? I mean, there's huge stigma with it as well.

Linda Murphy:

And I also I'm

Seth Nelson:

also assuming, Linda, that couples don't say it so nicely as you just did. I'm really requesting that you join me in marriage counseling to help work on some issues that I believe we're having that you might not even believe are a problem. Like, that's not how it happens. Right?

Pete Wright:

Wait. You don't have a Zen gong in your in your, foyer, Seth, for all difficult conversations?

Seth Nelson:

I do want it for everyone.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. Uh-huh. I do I do wanna ask, though. I how do you know, Linda, when you're done? How do you know you finished your journey with this couple?

Pete Wright:

One way or another, it's gotta you've gotta be finished. You can't meet with these people forever. What do you do?

Linda Murphy:

They usually let me know. I will for example, when a couple is doing quite well and they're going to not need my services anymore, I will let them know that, hey. You know, things are seeming to be going pretty good. So do you feel like you need to see me every week at this point, or do you think that we could spread it out? Right?

Linda Murphy:

When it comes to people getting a divorce, they usually will let me know. I think we've talked about all we can talk about. And I always let them know, not a problem. If things come up in the future, like, if you're having a hard time co parenting, and maybe you've got the plan completely drawn out, and it is what it's going to be, but you're still struggling to communicate, come on back. We can have session.

Seth Nelson:

Never happens. 2 people Oh,

Linda Murphy:

it does.

Seth Nelson:

Course with kids having trouble communicating.

Pete Wright:

Oh, I

Linda Murphy:

thought you meant coming back. But it's great. I mean, you can talk about, like, you know, I've got a vacation coming up and I need your help and will you be there for me if I need your help and, you know, it's not your day. And having need again to create that safe space to work through some of the things that they need support with. I'm happy to do it.

Pete Wright:

You love those boomerang divorce clients. Keep them coming back.

Seth Nelson:

Well, on that point and here's just a quick example, and I get both sides of this transaction. You're in a divorce case, you mediated and the dad fought for all this time and the mom's like, He's never gonna use it. He's never gonna use it. He's never gonna use it, but but to settle the case, I'll give him the time. And then that's the parenting plan, that's the time sharing, the custody visitation arrangement.

Seth Nelson:

And then dad is constantly pawning the kids off on mom and mom gets upset and I They'll call me and I'll say, What are you upset about? Well, he's never taking his days. And I'll say, You didn't want him to have those days in the beginning. So what's changed you're you're actually getting what you wanted. I know it doesn't match the parenting plan.

Seth Nelson:

And the issue then is not that the the mom has the children. The issue is she can't plan. She feels like she's being his babysitter and his caregiver. There's all these other issues that don't get maybe discussed before. So kind of, I think, what you're saying, Linda, with those glasses is I tell people, let's really get to what the problem is here.

Seth Nelson:

Yeah. And are you willing to deal with that because you get your kids more? And the answer might be no. I'm not. I wanted to have a plan so I can schedule it.

Seth Nelson:

And I'm a guy that likes to plan and like to have a schedule, so I appreciate that. That's one of my schisms as well. Like, oh, the plan changed or we don't have a plan. I get very, you know, Thrown off. Yeah.

Seth Nelson:

Thrown off or my chest gets tight. But I think defining what the issue really is for you is also key.

Linda Murphy:

Well and I refer to that as what are your values. Right? So identifying, you know, or, let's say, the mom. If dad checks out and isn't doing as much and she feels like she's helping him with the time that he fought for, what I'm hearing you say is you help the mom to try to identify what she might value about this change. That he's he's really gifting her more time, and that's what she really wanted to begin with.

Linda Murphy:

And how can we adjust to that and not allow it to bother her so much? And sometimes, like you said, pointing out that that's what you wanted to begin with. Or maybe you can point back to the children. When the children are in your care and they have that steady time with mom, are they functioning better? Are things better for them?

Linda Murphy:

And so even though this is a really hard thing that your schedule's all messed up, could we flip it and see it as a positive for everybody?

Pete Wright:

When I was, we'd been married for 2 years, and we went in for, you know, a counseling checkup, make sure we're communicating alright. You know, we were just in that sort of, hey. We're not newlyweds anymore. Now what do we do? And Yeah.

Pete Wright:

At the end of about 5 weeks, the counselor says to both of us, you guys are doing great. I I feel like I you don't need me anymore. Takes a beat and then looks straight at me and says, Pete, I'd love to talk to you about your ADHD. I think that might be getting in the way of some things for you. And I said, what?

Pete Wright:

No idea. I I say all this as as, truly got my ad adult ADHD diagnosis in marriage counseling. It was amazing. And you are saying,

Seth Nelson:

don't change that. That's the only thing I love about it.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. I I say all that because I have to imagine. I mean, that led to a deep and wonderful relationship with my counselor who helped me through some very hard things. And, so I I'm wondering if once once they break the seal with you and do some of the hard stuff, does that transition more easily into longer term relationships on, you know, broader communications issues, relationship issues? I I assume that's recommended post divorce.

Pete Wright:

What does that look like?

Linda Murphy:

Do you mean if they're coming to me as a couple and then they decide to get a divorce, maybe they work with me individually? Yeah. Sometimes, if that does occur, I try to only work with one person or the other. And if the couple is done with me as a couple's counselor or divorce counselor, I will then have the couple sign off saying that one person staying for individual and the other one is no longer my client. That legally protects them to make sure that the notes going moving forward are not able to be accessed by anybody, you know, subpoenaed or whatever.

Pete Wright:

Certainly, ethically protects you and your licensure.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I do try to make it a very clear you are no longer my client, and now I'm moving forward individually with somebody else.

Pete Wright:

It sounds like what you're doing is finally, at long last, picking sides.

Seth Nelson:

Yeah. I wasn't gonna say it, Pete. I thought about it. I wasn't gonna say it. And I thought if I'm quiet enough, I bet your Pete will take

Pete Wright:

that bait. The joke will emerge.

Linda Murphy:

Uh-huh. And, actually, that's what ends up happening. Right? Because if you do start to see somebody individually for long enough, it does create this relationship with that person that it it becomes harder and harder to see both sides

Seth Nelson:

Yeah. Of

Linda Murphy:

the argument if if you're not, you know, able to separate yourself. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, that's what I tend to do and just, just because it's interesting.

Linda Murphy:

It's usually the partner who didn't want to come to couples counseling that stays with me for individual.

Seth Nelson:

Oh, I didn't see that.

Pete Wright:

No. That's that's a real twist.

Linda Murphy:

Which I always get a kick out of. I'm like, wow. You were fighting it. And usually, I mean, that's what I always hear. A lot of men who think that they're not going to like couples counseling, like it a whole lot more than they think they will.

Linda Murphy:

And maybe it is my ability to see both perspectives and stay neutral that they're not expecting, and they enjoy it. I I don't know. But I would tell you that the couples counselors that I know, that I talk with, you know, they they both have that same goal of staying neutral in it. So it's unfortunate that people don't feel that way sometimes at the end.

Pete Wright:

Yeah. Well, I can tell you that, as for me and Seth, we're really grateful for your work with us in couples podcasting.

Seth Nelson:

I feel a lot better now, Pete, that we can communicate.

Pete Wright:

It's you're yeah. I really do. I feel super grounded.

Linda Murphy:

Now that you understand each other's schemas

Pete Wright:

The schemas. Yeah. I'm watching the schemas right now. Though, you've been great. Linda, thank you so much for, for making the time to join us for this conversation.

Pete Wright:

We sure appreciate it.

Linda Murphy:

You're welcome. I had so much fun.

Pete Wright:

Why don't you, give us a little plug? Where would you like people to go learn more about you?

Linda Murphy:

Well, you can go to my website at rad counseling.com. That stands for relationship and divorce counseling.com.

Pete Wright:

Did you stumble on that acronym, or was that part of the design?

Linda Murphy:

It's so funny. At first, I was gonna be divorced and relationship. Well, it's a

Pete Wright:

darn counseling.

Linda Murphy:

I know. My husband's like, Dar. No. And then he flipped it. He's like, rad.

Linda Murphy:

Yeah. It's perfect for my personality too.

Pete Wright:

Your husband is aces. That is a great that a great catch.

Seth Nelson:

Her husband was like, rad counseling? You and I gotta go.

Pete Wright:

Yeah.

Seth Nelson:

So, Pete, I know she just said her website, but near and dear to my heart, Linda practices right here in the great state of Florida and even better in Tampa.

Pete Wright:

Hey. That's local.

Seth Nelson:

It's right here. It's great. And so I am sure that, people listening in the local Tampa Bay area, we have a great counselor here. Give Linda a look up, and whether you need it for, like we discussed today, divorce counseling, individual counseling, if you're in a relationship and you're thinking about maybe even getting married and you wanna check-in on, hey. Is this right for me?

Seth Nelson:

Is it is it all working? There's all sorts of stuff that Linda can provide. Linda, I cannot thank you enough for joining us, and I look forward to seeing you soon.

Linda Murphy:

Thank you guys so much.

Pete Wright:

This is amazing. Thank you so much, Linda Murphy, for your time, and thank you everybody for downloading, listening to this show. Hey, are you listening to this podcast in an app? Does that app allow you to rate and review podcasts and share with others? Then would you please do that with this podcast?

Pete Wright:

We would love to hear, your comments. We prefer the positive ones, but we'll take all of them because we can always learn, in podcast directories, around the Internet. Thank you everybody for your time and attention. On behalf of Linda Murphy and the great Seth Nelson, America's favorite family law attorney, I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next time right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.

Outro:

Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Coster Family Law and Mediation with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, how to split a toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Coster.

Outro:

Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.