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On this episode of The Conversation, hosts John and Rachel sit down with Olentangy Local Schools English teachers Andrea Vescelius and Hannah Rust to explore how their practice of not grading reshaped mindsets and renewed hope for both students and educators.
Welcome to Season 3 of The Conversation! This season we’re exploring how educators can rediscover joy, cultivate hope, and reconnect with the educational journey. Join us for a season filled with inspiring stories and meaningful insights that celebrate the power of education.
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Welcome to "The Conversation", the ESC of Central Ohio's podcast! Join podcast hosts John Hambrick and Rachel Daniels every month as they explore a variety of topics featuring voices in education, helping to ignite ideas and inspire change. Want to be part of "The Conversation"? Email us: christina.gradywatts@escco.org
Season 2 of The Conversation is here! This season we're exploring themes that will keep you informed, excited, and engaged —with a new twist, several of our episodes will include a student’s perspective. Listen along as we ignite ideas and inspire change.
Andrea Vescelius:
You do have to start with that person in the mirror and thinking about how are you approaching students to want to engage and want to have a chance at accessing their purpose in the scope of one little year in their English class or whatever class it is.
Narrator:
That was Andrea Vescelius, an English teacher at Olentangy Local Schools. On this episode of The Conversation, John and Rachel sit down with Andrea and fellow English teacher Hannah Oswald to explore their bold approach to grading by eliminating it entirely. They'll share how this shift transformed their teaching mindset and reignited their passion for the classroom. Let's dive in.
John Hambrick:
Hello and welcome back to The Conversation, Ohio voices in education, igniting ideas, inspiring change. Welcome back with my co-host, Rachel Daniels. We are so glad you've come back to The Conversation. Today we're going to Olentangy School districts today and we're talking with a couple of great educators. Hannah Oswald and Andrea Vescelius are joining us. Andrea, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself so our listeners know a little bit about your journey? And then Hannah, why don't you pick up after Andrea?
Andrea Vescelius:
Thanks, John. Thanks for having us on today. We appreciate it. I'm Andrea Vescelius, and I have been an educator... I just finished my 25th year. And I don't think it matters where I've been teaching. I've always wanted to empower those students that I've taught to achieve more than they thought that they could. And so I don't think it mattered whether I was at West High School in Columbus City or in Olentangy. I've always been about doing what's right for kids. I think a lot of that has to do with then having reflection as an educator and thinking about, okay, how did this go and how can we change this to make it better for next year's kids?
Hannah Rust:
And I'm Hannah Oswald, and I'm also very excited to be here with everyone today. I just finished my 12th year of teaching, 11 of which have been at Olentangy Liberty High School, which is also my alma mater, which I'm very lucky and privileged to have circled back around back to my old stomping grounds. And very similarly to Andrea, I've had, in my 12 years, a lot has happened, and witnessing a lot of student grief, student loss, and student humanity. And I had to learn really quickly that the humans in front of me were way more important than whatever content I could consider teaching. So that's kind of what motivated me to get involved in many different ways to collaborate with all kinds of teachers across the state. And that's again, why I'm here today.
Rachel Daniels:
Well, you've both seen education evolve over the years. How have student needs and expectations shifted, and what do you think today's students are really looking for in their learning experiences? Hannah, why don't you go first?
Hannah Rust:
Great. Yeah. I think that students in this day and age... And I think it's tough for English teachers especially, just because reading can be really boring. And our world today is so fast-paced, and kids want to be online, they want to be engaged online. And I think that something that they really need is what can we give to them that can transfer immediately into their lives outside of our classroom? So again, I think that everything that we can do in the classroom to prepare them for the world outside of the classroom and even just the class just down the hallway is what we really need to focus on to get them engaged and active and to be active in their own learning.
Rachel Daniels:
Yeah. Hannah, that really resonates with me because I'm a strong proponent of disciplinary literacy, which is the practice that allows students to be apprenticed into the kind of thinking that happens in the discipline. And so it's kind of the opposite of just jumping through hoops and compliantly playing school, but rather really being apprenticed into the work that you see in the field, which really is an easy way to foster engagement and motivation because students feel like they're doing something authentically and with a purpose. And that's what I'm hearing from you.
Hannah Rust:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that innovation is another thing that is helping our kids to be innovative and to be creative. And that's something we can really only do if they're inspired to do it. So getting them invested and engaged so that they can innovate and create, that's definitely at the forefront of my mind every day when I'm in the classroom.
Rachel Daniels:
Yeah, that's powerful. Well, Andrea, going into finishing 25 years in the classroom, certainly you've seen a lot of shifts and movement. And so I'm curious to hear from you, what changes have you noticed and how does that require a shift in your own practice or thinking?
Andrea Vescelius:
I think one thing that I've seen over the years is that increase in anxiety, the increase in mental health concerns, and to see that, I think, back in the early 2010s. And with that increase in anxiety and mental health concerns, I think kids have a larger need now for psychological safety and to feel a part of something bigger than themselves, so a community of learners. And I would agree with Hannah that kids need to know that they're more important than the content. And that the content is great, we love to teach our content as teachers, however, that person, that human being sitting in front of us and whatever they're going through, whatever they're dealing with, even if it's they come in and they have a great time and they laugh in our classrooms, that's, I think, really important. So when you ask what are kids looking for today, I think they're looking to be seen and heard for sure. And I think they're looking for autonomy and relevance.
And as I noticed as kids have been getting younger, because I'm not going to say I've been getting older, but I have to be aware of what might be relevant to me is not relevant to them. And I need to come more towards where they are with what I teach in my classroom rather than further away to make sure that that relevance piece... Because again, I agree with Hannah that they want to be online, and how can we use that as a resource and how can we use their skills, their strengths as a resource to make sure that they're following their curiosities for what we're learning?
Rachel Daniels:
Well, what you're making me think about are two researchers that I follow closely are Doug Fisher and Nancy Frey. And in their newest book, they talk about how it sort of behooves us to stop thinking about in education, the pendulum swinging. I mean, we've heard that phrase so many times. And instead of thinking about the shift in education as being a pendulum swinging, think about it as it being a drill and how the drill just sort of is recursively working. And when you drill down, one thing happens. When you bring the drill back up, another thing happens. It's this notion of visiting and revisiting things and then making the change that's kind of required. And that's what I'm hearing from you in that is thinking about our current [inaudible 00:07:47] and what they need versus what worked for us. Because clearly we're in education because it worked for us and maybe today's students need something a little different. So given us some good food for though here.
John Hambrick:
How are educators intentionally leaning in to students' differences rather than seeing barriers and impediments into connecting with learning?
Hannah Rust:
I think this is definitely a struggle with teachers across the board, and myself included. When I was younger, and this probably wasn't actually that long ago, I would go toe to toe with kids a lot. And I realized that that wasn't, one, the point of education. That's not making anybody happier. It certainly wasn't making me any happier. So I think taking that look at the teacher in the mirror, the person in the mirror, and thinking about, what is my goal here? And if at the end of the day, my goal is to get kids to read, to write, and to laugh a little bit, I'm not going toe to toe with anybody. And so just really trying to break those barriers down within ourselves that make us have our hackles rise. Again, it could potentially be a Sisyphean task, maybe even for me, but just something to really reflect on.
I teach both advanced and inclusion English classes. And something that I'm learning over the years is good practice works for all kids no matter their level of achievement. And I think that being able to be honest with my students and forthcoming with them and to emphasize that they have purpose and they have a voice is ultimately what I want them to take away from my class. I don't want them to be thinking about their GPA for my class. I want them to understand that very few people carry their ACT and SAT scores in the back of their brains for their adult life. But I want them to think about how are they achieving skills that are meaningful to them. So I think maybe I did a roundabout way of kind of getting into those barriers of, you do have to start with that person in the mirror and thinking about how are you approaching students to want to engage and want to have a chance at accessing their purpose in the scope of one little year in their English class or whatever class it is.
John Hambrick:
Well, in some cases, that's an impactful year. What grade are you teaching now, predominantly?
Hannah Rust:
I have mostly 11th and 12th graders.
John Hambrick:
That's a big time year for these students. Andrea, so with your experiences, how have you found that element of lowering those barriers for high quality educational engagement?
Andrea Vescelius:
Well, I think Hannah has nailed it on the head because I think what she was talking about is it comes down to our mindset as educators. And I think we choose our mindset when we walk into our classrooms, and I think that has to be very intentional. And we also have to give ourselves grace because I think, like Hannah was demonstrating, that through reflection we grow. And so when we talk about lowering those barriers, I think those barriers a lot of times, and like Hannah started to talk about, is about power in the classroom and having power with kids instead of power over.
I know one move that we made together back in 2019, kids wanted to go gradeless. And I had recognized that grades were getting in the way of learning and because kids were so stressed and they were so anxiety ridden and so forth about all their classes and they wanted to do well. And so the kids one day just suggested, "Can we go gradeless?" Had a conversation that we were having out in the hallway when we were reflecting over some work that they had done, and we all dove in to go gradeless. And not that we weren't going to give quarter grades or semester grades or end-of-year grades or anything like that, but to co-create a way to give feedback and a way to work with one another where skills and learning was at the forefront instead of worrying about grades.
And so this journey for me that I've been on, we have continued to do that, but I've gotten a lot better at it. And as I've gotten feedback every year from kids and throughout the year, throughout the process, I've been able to make things hopefully better for kids as well. So that doesn't come without making mistakes and admitting that in front of the kids, right? Because I think kids, when we go back to what do they need, they need people in front of them who can model making mistakes, who can model taking risks.
If we want them to be creative and courageous problem solvers, then we too have to be those individuals who are willing to make changes and who are willing to take risks and who are willing to then maybe have to apologize because things didn't go as we planned because that's okay because that's what learning is. Learning isn't just intaking new knowledge, it's figuring out how to do something. And when we do that together, I think it makes a really amazing community of learners together, teacher and students alike.
Rachel Daniels:
Yeah. And Andrea, what's resonating with me is this notion of teaching students how to both give and receive warm and cool feedback, making the whole assessment process less about a transactional thing. I mean, anyone who's ever taught knows the pain, especially in English language arts, of spending hours grading and marking things up and handing a paper back and students just look for the number and then toss it to the side. And you know that there has been sort of like no growth from all of the blood, sweat, and tears as an educator that you can put into that. So I think that shift feels like a powerful transition. And it leads into my wondering for you both, if you could give one piece of advice to teachers who want to evolve or need a lifeline if maybe they're experiencing burnout or connection with students, what might that piece of advice be? Hannah, let's start with you. What advice might you offer?
Hannah Rust:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first right off the bat is do it, go for it. Nobody knows your students better than you. Nobody knows how you're going to interact with your students better than you. Change it. Change it all up. But I do think there's a really big importance to having a community of teachers who are there to support you. And I really encourage people both that I work with and that I don't work with to find a community that works for them. Going to conferences, taking classes, looking at different programs like the Ohio Writing Project. All of those places are opportunities for growth for teachers. And if that's too much for you, read. Take a look at some of those really great books from Penny Kittle and Kelly Gallagher, Kylene Beers, Cris Tovani. There are so many great authors out there that have done some really great things that you can tweak to your own practices.
But yeah, three years into my profession, I did. I was like, "Why am I doing what everybody else is doing because it's not working for me?" And I'm so grateful that I shook that off at such a young age to be able to have the confidence to, "You know what? This is what's best for my students. It also happens to be what's best for me. And so this is what I'm going to do." So that's my advice is go for it.
Rachel Daniels:
Andrea, what about you? What advice do you have to offer?
Andrea Vescelius:
I agree with Hannah wholeheartedly. I agree with everything that she said. And I think one thing that I would add to that is if a teacher's sitting there, and maybe they're like, "I don't even know where to start," I would say find one small thing that you're curious about that maybe you want to know why this happened or how is it not happening or something. Just find something small. And then what I use in my class and comes from business is the five why techniques and where we just ask the five whys, "Well, why did this happen?" And we start to use your metaphor from before, drill down. So with that, just to get really curious and ask questions, and then run with it that year and bring the kids in. I would always recommend to bring the kids' voices in, and ask them the same questions, "Well, why do you think this is happening? How can we do this better?"
And when you bring the kids in, they give so much amazing feedback that's been so beneficial for me over the years. Because one of the best things that I've ever heard a kid say was when he told me, he said, "We need you to get out of the way." When he said that, I was like, "Oh, what does that look like?" And he was like, "I don't know, but I know that teachers need to get out of our way." And that really, really, really has resonated with me over the years. So those moments when kids say those brilliant things, I think we have to listen wholeheartedly to those kids and very closely because they can help. They're probably the best givers of feedback.
Rachel Daniels:
Yeah, that is so impactful. I want to close with one final question. What fuels your hope for the future of education? Andrea, we'll start with you. What's fueling your hope for education?
Andrea Vescelius:
For me, it's the students, for sure, and other teachers like Hannah, my colleagues who are innovators and who always push to do the right thing for kids because I think the kids right now, they're curious, they're inquisitive. They're just so fun and we have the opportunity to do things really differently right now because of technology. And so I think to take advantage of all of those together, I think education is in a place where we could really go forward and really, really push education to be a place that gets the kids the skills that they want. And to go back to what Hannah said about purpose, to really have some purposeful, intentional learning.
Rachel Daniels:
Yeah, that's incredible. Hannah, take us home. What's your hope for the future?
Hannah Rust:
I agree with absolutely everything that Andrea just said. 100% my students that are in front of me every year, they are my motivators. They inspire me to make changes for them and with them. But again, I don't know where I would be without the amazing colleagues and support system that I've sought out over the course of the year. So opportunities like this, opportunities like attending conferences, all of those things just show me really great people looking to improve education, to improve the world, and to improve opportunities for our young people. And that's what inspires me is knowing that there are so many people out there like Andrea and like so many other great colleagues that I know and work with that are just willing to get messy and to really engage and enjoy their time with their students. I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
Rachel Daniels:
Well, and Andrea, John and I are so thankful to have had this time to just unpack just the tip of the iceberg of this incredible work that's happening in your midst and are so encouraged to see this notion of collective teacher efficacy right in front of our faces and the value and power that can happen when teachers are able to work together collaboratively. It's really powerful. So thank you for your time today. John and I are appreciative for our listening audience as well. We will put links in the show notes for any materials or resources. But for now, this is Rachel for John. Stay curious, and keep engaged in the conversation.