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In this episode of Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works, Gene Tavernetti talks with Dr. Lalita Karpen about special education, specially designed instruction, literacy, and the responsibility schools have to provide effective instruction for every student.
Dr. Karpen shares her path from leaving high school to earning a doctorate, and explains why she sees literacy as a human right. The conversation then examines how specially designed instruction differs from accommodations, how it should build on strong Tier 1 instruction, and what teachers and school leaders can do to support students with disabilities.
Descriptions of effective teaching often depict an idealized form of "perfect" instruction. Yet, pursuing perfection in teaching, which depends on children's behavior, is ultimately futile. To be effective, lessons and educators need to operate with about 75% efficiency. The remaining 25% can be impactful, but expecting it in every lesson, every day, is unrealistic. Perfection in teaching may be unattainable, but progress is not. Whether you are aiming for the 75% effectiveness mark or striving for continuous improvement, this podcast will guide you in that endeavor.
Speaker: Welcome to Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network, shows that help you go beyond education. Find all our shows at bepodcastnetwork.com.
Speaker: I am Gene Tavernetti, the host for this podcast, and my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once, and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords, only stuff that works. Hello, everyone. It's just me again today, and-
Speaker 2: My guest today is Dr. Lalita Karpent, a special educator, literacy advocate, and mentor to teachers across her district. Her story is one of perseverance and purpose. Coming from a family where her grandmother never had the opportunity to receive a formal education, Dr. Karpent understands the transformative power of learning.
Speaker 2: Today, she dedicates her career to helping students, families, and educators succeed through inclusive practices, strong literacy instruction, and a belief that every child can thrive. We're gonna be talking about all of those things today with Dr. Lalita Karpent. I think you're gonna like this one
Speaker 3: Alida, welcome to Better Teaching: Only Stuff that Works. Okay, thank you for having me on your show. Oh, I've been looking forward to this. You know, I've been, we've been communicating a, a little bit once I, uh, actually read your emails, and, and, and you wanted me to switch to a different email, and I'm not, uh, good with details.
Speaker 3: And so we're all, we're all good now. We finally, we finally got connected. But before we talk a- about some things that really interest me, and, uh, one of the things that I'm interested in is, is, uh, special education and how are we doing with special education, and I know you, a lot of your work is there.
Speaker 3: But, but before we get into that, I, I think your personal story is, is very interesting. Uh, you know, with respect to how you became so passionate about education and about, uh, working with the population that you work with and, and helping teachers work with that population. So can you, you give our listeners just a little bit of background about yourself?
Speaker 4: So, um, it really started with my daughter and a promise that I made to myself that, um, she would have the opportunities and a future that was better than my own. Um, for many years, I really didn't spend much time thinking about my own educational journey. And something, I mean, I don't know if maybe I had an epiphany or what it was, but last May, my son, um, he, um, graduated from Columbia with his master's.
Speaker 4: And, um, I sat there, and when he had his name called, and I saw this little kid cross the stage, and, you know, I had my, my daughter was sitting there next to me, and I had my, my husband was sitting on the other side, and I looked, and- It was, it was just something just, like, hit me where I was. I mean, you know, Columbia, Ivy League, and to know my background.
Speaker 4: I mean, I had some issues in my, um, my own personal life, my family, where I had to drop out of school, um, high school. My, my grandmother never had the opportunity to have an education. Um, she never learned to read and write, and one of the proudest moment for me as an educator was seeing my grandmother at the age of 65 being able to sign her name, to actually see her name being written and not have to depend on a thumbprint.
Speaker 4: And then something just ... I don't know. I ... The tears that started rolling down my eyes at that time became something different. It was like 150 years of seeing and remembering my ancestors crossing the Atlantic from South India to Guyana as inve- as indentured servants searching for a better, better life.
Speaker 4: Imagining my grandmother never having an opportunity for a formal education, and then having both of my children being able to Have, uh, something better now. And so I know what it is to having been denied an education and what, how transformational the power, having an education can change lives, how it can change generational.
Speaker 4: And so for me, literacy, right, I see it just more than just something. I, I see it as a human right because it just have the power to change the whole trajectory of everything. And in that moment when I was looking at my daughter, she's now 33, I remember being back in that moment at age 27
Speaker 4: And a promise, she didn't even know that I was making this promise to her There was this program at the Borough of Manhattan Community College, and it was if you sign up for this program and you completed 24 college credits, they will give you a GED And I have always loved reading. Reading, I feel, had saved my life
Speaker 4: That same week w- I had my daughter, I went down, I went down to, um, BMCC, that's the short for the College of Manhattan. And I remember going in, I mean, I was, like, petrified. I was so scared. I mean, like, me going to this college to ask for this information, 'cause my younger sister had kept bringing this flyer and I was ignoring her.
Speaker 4: I'm like, "I just don't have time." But nevertheless, I went in and I fill out the information, and I signed up there. And so the rest pretty much was history. So between age 27 to age 44, I never looked back. I completed my associate, I got my bachelor's, my master's. In between, I got multiple certificates. Um, and so here I am.
Speaker 4: I do believe that given the opportunities, regardless of your circumstance, children can do It doesn't matter even if, you know, they're, may have a cognitive disability, I mean, physical disability, whatever it is. Regardless of, you know, if a child is disabled or not disabled, I truly believe that When given that opportunity, that, that's the only way out of an upward mobility, so to speak, because today, you know, I have a biomedical engineer.
Speaker 4: I have... That's my son, and my, my daughter is a, um, registered nurse. They have went on to do amazing things with their life. Um, because of education, I have been able to do a whole lot of things, and I've been able to give back. You and I have met in St. Louis. Um, I've been able to do that because of the things, you know, because of an education, because I'm now in a different place economically.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And so I'm able to give back, to give back to families, able to- You know, you know, it's interesting. I have heard many people, many teachers who, many people who are in education, uh, say similar things. "Oh, you know, education is the way out. Education is very important," blah, blah, blah. But it's very different having it come from you, you know, with, with your experience and your circumstances.
Speaker 3: So, so let's go into some of the things that, that you think make, uh, education and literacy available to students. And o- one of the things that I, I know that you, when you were in St. Louis, you talked about something called specifically designed instruction. And so, so how would you describe specifically described instruction versus what we might just think of as explicit instruction or other types of instruction?
Speaker 4: Oh, yes. Specifically designed instruction, um, or SDI. So it's amazing that, um, a lot of special ed teachers have not heard this term. SDI has been, is, is enshrined in IDEA, and so IDEA, um, that is the law that governs special education. It's been, and IDEA has been around 50 years. And to be frank, actually, when, you know, I've been doing, been a special ed teacher, uh, this is my 25th year in, in, in this business.
Speaker 4: Even when I went to g- get my certification, become a special ed teacher, no one taught me. We d- SDI, specially designed instruction, that wasn't even a thing. Uh, that has not even been on my radar. And part of what I do for my district is working with, um, new teachers. So this here, SDI, um, and, and I think this is where we are failing our new teachers, our special ed teachers in, in general.
Speaker 4: SDI simply means the content, what is taught, the methodology, how it is taught, and the delivery of instruction, when, where, or by whom it is taught. It is a legal requirement of a stu- for, for district, for teachers, case managers, for them to have, for students, any student that have an IEP, right? That is how instruction is delivered.
Speaker 4: Specially designed instruction is a core pillar of IDEA, and it, and it's devi- it's defined basically as adapting the content, the methodology, or the delivery of instruction. And so sometimes it gets confused with an accommodation Okay, before we go there, before we go there, because I really want to dive deep into that.
Speaker 3: You said you weren't exposed to it. This is the law. Mm-hmm. You were, you were credentialed, you were licensed to be a special ed teacher, and you had never heard of it, and now you help mentor, train, uh, new teachers, new special ed teachers in the district in this, in spe- specifically, uh, uh, specially designed instruction.
Speaker 3: Yes. So where did- Or SDI. Yeah, yes, SDI. Where did you learn about it? How did you become familiar with it? And, and, uh, uh- So- Well, that's in- So, um, one of the things I like to do, I, I like, like to read. I like to read any and everything. And so I just came across, um, I just researched this on my own, and my district actually started implementing SDI, um, about four years ago.
Speaker 4: I'm, I'm not really sure if it was probably, um, maybe from a litigious, maybe from a, a lawsuit or what. I'm not really sure why, but I would say this: my district have really started full-blown implementation. One of the things that we have done is starting really being serious about the training of our teachers.
Speaker 4: Um, and we're seeing this over and over, the new teachers that's been hired, right? That even with the teacher prep program, they're saying they've, they don't even know this. They have never heard this term. When I was in St. Louis, and that was just last month, the, I had about 18 people in my session, and not one of them have heard of this term.
Speaker 4: They have never heard of this terminology, SDI And, uh, frankly, I am not shocked. So I, I think, like, on a national stage, we have to do a better job of preparing our teachers. Um, last year, I, um, presented at the Council of Exceptional Ed, CEC, and I met, you know, a lot of people there again, and, and CEC is trying to get this word out.
Speaker 4: I think that's one of the, the big failures of special education, this disconnect, and I think it goes back to a lot of fu- uh, a loss of funding, and this is where you see a lot of, um, teacher prep programs are actually closing too, because when you look At specific programs across the country, especially design instruction or SD- that, that is not even on many teacher prep program radar.
Speaker 3: So let's go back. So, so, uh, you, you're from Geo- you work in Georgia. Mm-hmm. You, you went to Missouri. They had never heard of this, but this is the work you've been doing in your district, and you said the district took it up, and you think possibly because of, of litigation, which is where a lot of changes happen, a lot of things happen with regards to special ed.
Speaker 3: So now are you... Is that one of the things that you do, or do you train your, the new teachers in, in SDI, or, or how does that get disseminated? Because you're not depending on your local universities and the teacher prep program for these folks. Um, I don't really think that a lot of districts, at least in Georgia, that they are depending on the teacher prep program.
Speaker 4: Um, I know in, in my district, um, our, um, w- we have something called the, the network seminar, um, which we do. Our mentoring program is from zero to three years. I'm, I'm one of the facilitators. And one of the things that we have done is making sure our new teachers get the help that they need. And so the biggest group of teachers that need support is the special ed population.
Speaker 4: Um, we do have other, um, teachers that come, like from the science, um, you know, social studies, other area, but the, the highest group of teachers that come are special ed teachers. I... You know, um, turnover is a thing. Burnout is a thing. But we make sure that our teachers get what they need, and- Of course, you know, it is a, it is a team.
Speaker 4: Our special ed department, um, we put out different things, um, throughout the month. Um, but the network, or we call the network seminar, when they come, there's a big group that happens, and then they break out. It's a collaborative. Um, and so one of the things that we will send out, we do like a survey. Okay, what is it that you are needing or that you want and that you're looking for?
Speaker 4: And they will fill it out, so when they come to the network, we already know what they're looking for. The other thing that we implemented is a mentorship, one-to-one, like into the schoolhouse, right? So for example, like in my building, we have the building, um, mentoring program where, um, each special ed teacher have their own mentor that they can go to.
Speaker 4: So, like, in my building I'll have, um, our monthly meeting. If a teacher feels like they need, um, you know, whatever that they may need, that, that individualized help. And so with that SDI part, um, they will have that help that they need to address that student needs. We have something that's called, um, uh, in, uh, individual learning plan.
Speaker 4: So one of the ways that we break it down for the s- the teacher- So we'll pull the IEP. We will gather up, look at the, um, the psychological, um, of the, of that student, um, where that student is working, right? So we'll look at the student need, and then look at what the, the, um, the goal is and try to mesh it.
Speaker 4: Because we always have to look at the s- we're not gonna, um, lack for a better word, wanna, like, lower the bar for the student, right? We always wanna make sure the student is working at grade-level standards and break it down. So a student that may have an, um, a disability as other health impairment may need something different than a student that may have an eligibility for autism, and that's where that specially designed instruction come in.
Speaker 4: Because what may be good, what Suzy may need over here, Johnny may need something different over here. So I don't know if that makes sense. Yes. That's, that makes it special. The, okay, so the, so the specially designed has to do with in those five pillars or sec- or areas that you talked about earlier, uh, with respect to kids with IEPs.
Speaker 3: Okay. L- l- let's go back upstream a little bit and, and get into, uh, the Tier 1 instruction. Is there, would there be... I know it's not specifically designed, because the specifically designed is, is based on IEPs and, and goals, et cetera, and, and qualifying, qualifying, uh, uh, reasons to be in the, in the program.
Speaker 3: How does that align with tier one instruction? Does it look similar except for these other elements or, or is it very different? You know, this is such an important question, especially for, um, anyone in educational leadership, um, like, like principals, someone that's coming in to the classroom to understand the basic tenets of the two.
Speaker 4: So for me, and I'm glad that you brought this up because that was what I, I presented in, in St. Louis. For me, the, the, the line between tier one and SDI is that personalization. Tier one... So every child, regardless if they have an IEP or not, we always have to go back to that core instruction, tier one high quality instruction for every student, right?
Speaker 4: So SDI start when we, um, intentionally adapt that instruction to address that student disability related needs, and then to help them make their progress with their IEP goals. It's not about where the instruction happen, it's whether the instruction is uniquely designed for that student. So e- even though we're, we're gonna do the specially designed instruction, it still have to be that tier one.
Speaker 4: We still have to bridge those two. So it's not necessarily where the instruction is happening. We still have to bridge the two. So it's, it's then we don't wanna make sure... We, we don't wanna have it separate. So even though we're doing SDI, we can do SDI in tier one Okay. That, that- Okay ... if you can see the picture of how that works.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay. So, uh, so that there, so the implication is that there are just some core elements of effective instruction that should be happening, whether it's tier one, whether it's SDI. Uh, so c- can you describe some of those core elements? And because you mentioned that, you know, what an, an administrator should be looking for.
Speaker 3: So, so if an administrator walks into a classroom, what are some, those core elements of effective instruction, whether it's to the tier one in general to the class, or, uh, having the SDI elements? So again, even if it's, um, a S- SDI, o- one, one of the things that an administrator first should be looking for, is there explicit, right?
Speaker 4: Is it systematic? What, what, what is it, i- is, what is the teaching happening? Okay. Um, o- one of the misconception, though, that has happened in the past or working in the old model, um, and I, I just did a, a training from, with the Georgia DOE, and i- one of the things that, uh, the trainer said that a lot of, um, feedback that she's gotten from, with special ed teachers, actually, and gen ed teachers that are in a co-taught setting, is that the feedback that they're getting from administrators that they are walking in, and they're getting, I guess, dinged on their evaluation, is that, "Oh, this is a co-taught classroom, and I should walk in, and I shouldn't be able to tell who's the special ed teacher or who is the gen ed teacher."
Speaker 4: Well, that's not really the reality, because what makes it, what would make it special, right? That is stuck somewhere in the 1970s. I'm sorry, and I am, was born in the 1970s. I, I mean, let's, let's be honest here. That's a decade of bad taste, but, I mean, let's- ... we, we can't, we cannot do what has happened in the past.
Speaker 4: It's like saying, you know, we shouldn't, we should continue to, to teach how, teach reading like we were doing 30 years ago, right? If we walk in- In a, a co-taught classroom and saying that, "I should be able... Everything should be the same." That should not be. That you're working the assumption that, okay, this, both teachers should be the same.
Speaker 4: Well, what is so special about that? Because the classroom needs are gonna be different, right? Because if Miss Smith is doing SDI over here, right? And Susie SDI says, "I need to slow the pace down." And Mr. John over here, the gen ed teacher, needs to speed up the, whatever he's teaching. Will both teacher look the same, teach the same?
Speaker 4: No
Speaker 3: Well, it's very interesting, you know, the whole co-teaching thing. I don't know how far off we wanna get into this, but, uh, uh, I know years ago, uh, I was doing a training, uh, in co-teaching, and it was co-presented by myself and a general ed person and a special ed person. And we did the training, and we talked about how you could do some of the things that you just described, and, uh, it seemed to be going, you know, seemed that the training went well.
Speaker 3: It seemed the teachers are receptive. You could tell that as a presenter, you know, whether they're buying- Hmm ... this stuff or not. And at the end, this guy came up to me, a guy, the teacher came up to me, he was a science teacher, and he says, "You know what? This is all real good, but there's, I'm teaching my class.
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna let anybody else teach my class, so I just, I just want you to know that." And so I have never been in a co-taught class where there wasn't that sort of dynamic of, you know, this is my class, and this person's in here. Yeah, we're co-teachers, but wink, wink, it's not- ... it's not really being co-taught.
Speaker 3: I'm the teacher, and this person is a glorified, uh, is a glorified paraprofessional. So it had, is that what you have come across? Is that a, is that a, uh, a barrier for, for co-teaching? Or how do you talk about co-teaching with, with folks beyond what you just described? You know, co-teaching, that's just, that's, that's a, I've been on both end of the spectrum, um, being a paraprofessional, 'cause I was a paraprofessional at one time.
Speaker 4: Um, I've been in a co-teaching setting myself, um- I- it is, it's a, it's a hard road to walk. Um, I've, I've been in a co-teaching setting where it was wonderful. I've also been in a s- a situation where, mm, I, I m- I made copies all day. Right. Uh, um, a- and, and so sometimes you, you, w- do, do you, y- you, okay, do you, do you fight this thing?
Speaker 4: Um, do you go ahead and make the copies? Like, what, what, what do you do? Or you're, um, I remember one, one of my, uh, colleague said to me, um, "I'm just the hired help." I remember one year, this was years ago, I was maybe young and didn't know any better, uh, someone had given me a, a, a button to wear and it said, "I'm just here," and I actually wore it.
Speaker 4: Just but I'm, you know. But, um, but I, I've seen a situation where it, it really work. I've been in a situation where it work. Um, I, and I think i- it's also a personality, um, thing too. Let's, let's be honest. Um, and, and I think the, the misconception is that sometimes, honestly, um, and this is no slight to my general ed colleagues, they just don't know.
Speaker 4: When you don't know what special ed is, and, uh, I will say a burden, because, um, there is a whole lot more to special ed than people realize, than what we need to do. We have ... It's a balancing act. And so sometimes when you don't know and you assume, um, y- you, you make, you make judgments about things and about people.
Speaker 4: And, you know, I, I'm gonna say we, and when I say we, I'm talking about special ed teachers in general. I mean, with every, with every group of people, there's, there's room for improvement. And, you know, I know I have, you know, elevated my practice from when I started 25 years ago to where I am now, and I'm sure I'm gonna need to do more things that, in the future.
Speaker 4: That's just how it is. It's a process. But collectively as a group, um, unless you're in the situation- Um, people make judgment. I sometimes say they, we're treated as the stepchildren, and I say this becau- and I don't say it lightly, and I'm gonna tell you why. We are called sometimes, quite often, to be the substitute of the building.
Speaker 4: We are called to manage behaviors. We're called to do all of these additional things, and we're still held accountable for every other thing. So we have to do everything that a general ed teacher have to do, plus all the duties and responsibility of being a case manager, the dual role without the pay, the hitting, the biting, the kicking, all those behavior things, and we're still held responsible.
Speaker 4: And then when people see, "Oh, well, she only got three kids. She only got four kids," they don't understand It, you know, uh, people can't see me, I'm smiling, and the reason that I'm smiling is because, you know, you're not saying anything new. Uh, my wife was a special ed teacher, and then a special ed administrator, and, uh, absolutely, you know, seen as, as stepchildren or, or however, however you wanna see it.
Speaker 3: And the things that you talk about perpetuate that, you know? The, it perpetuates that, that I'm gonna say a less than status. Mm-hmm. Because, oh, well, we can cancel this or cancel that, or, or up until the time there's litigation, and there you didn't- Mm ... get your time in, you know, with, with those kids. Those kids didn't get that.
Speaker 3: But I don't know what they're, what the answer is, unless, unless, uh, let's say I'm the gen ed teacher and, and you're m- the, I mean, see, even the language, you're my co-teacher. Yeah. You don't belong to me. You're co-teaching. Mm-hmm. But, but even I have, I have that language. Unless we understand and we share a similar, uh, s- lesson structure, a, a s- uh, that we share how we are gonna teach, then this SDI is, is a something foreign instead of something that matches, that melds.
Speaker 3: What do you, what do you think of that? This wasn't on- See, see- This wasn't on my list of questions. I, I know. And, and so this is why I said, do you really wanna open this can of worms? Are you asking me these questions? So like, so for example, one of the question you had asked, um, what, what should leaders look for when they go into a classroom?
Speaker 4: And, and so I, I, I don't wanna like say, you know, my, my, my special ed colleagues, there are not things and for room for improvements that they shouldn't be working on, right? So one of the things that I know one of my pet peeve is that- You have to have a lesson plan. For me, that is your b- blueprint for everything.
Speaker 4: Um, i- i- i- Anita Archer said, "Just cut the fluff," right? That was one, was one of her- Yeah ... things. Just cut the fluff and j- just teach the kids. So, I ... Don't, don't put on this horse and pony show and say, "Oh, I'm doing all of this," whatever. For me, just get to the meat of it. Look, identify the student needs, right?
Speaker 4: And l- get to what the student need and start working on it. I- i- Is there im- immediate feedback? One of the things, I remember one teacher, a, a kid that, that is EBD, you are not gonna wait a good- E- E- B- EBD, EBD Emotional behavior- Okay, okay, okay. Right. Sorry. Okay. In, in special ed, um, and you can ask your wife, y- y- we, we love our acronym, acronyms.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. I'm, I just- Yeah ... we can't help ourselves. No, no. We have a different one for those guys, but that's where- That's where, but that was my wife's first assignment, so I, I know those- Yeah ... I know those guys. Yeah. I, but it's just a different acronym here. Yes. Um, uh, i- I don't know what it is, but in s- in special education, we just love acronyms.
Speaker 4: But he wanted to, uh, wait a week to give a reward. You can't do that. You can't. I mean, I mean, th- the child is just beating him up, beating him up. They don't understand. I- he, in his little mind, he has worked, work. He want his reward right then and there. You gonna wait a week to give him his reward? No. So, immediate and specific feedback, you know, is progress measure.
Speaker 4: How are we moving towards independence? But, uh, it w- w- I mean, p- This, this divide of this is my kids over here and this group is yours, uh, it have to be cohesive. It, it has to be our kids. And this, okay, this is my room. It, it... What, what does this... This is my room. It, it, it should be our space collectively, right?
Speaker 4: And, you know, I don't, I don't know how you have managed, um, when, when you were i- in the admin role. I know as a building principal, you have to look. The, it, it's a, it's a different thing 'cause you have so many things you're managing. Scheduling also is a big problem. A- a- and, and that's... I don't, I don't see it m- so much in the, in the elementary level, but scheduling in the middle and high school is a big problem.
Speaker 4: And when kids are not where the teachers are, they're not getting their services. And
Speaker 4: And I think, I think that that's a problem. And if one thing, COVID Has done was shed light on a lot of things. And to come back to SDI, I think people were at home, a lot of research was done, parents became more aware of what should've been done. And I think, at least in my environment, and just talking to a lot of parents, parents start holding school systems accountable.
Speaker 4: "Oh, SDI is a thing. Show me the evidence. What is it that you are doing? I wanna see the data." Well, it's interesting. You know, you s- we started this conversation way back in the '70s with, uh, IDEA, and, you know, with legislation. And if you have any sort of criticism of, of special ed, is that we are d- you know, we are, we have the tail wagging the dog.
Speaker 3: We are driven by, we are driven by the legal aspects versus the educational aspects. And so even in your description of, of SDI, it's going to the, you know, what are the IEP goals, you know, and then we're gonna be sure those happen. Um, I know I told you my wife was, was involved in, in special ed. She was a special ed administrator, and one of the things that she was involved with is, uh, you know, with, uh, professional development.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And she wasn't at a site, she was in a county office, but her job was, uh, being sure that, making sure that there was professional development for the special ed teachers and administrators to be compliant. And, uh, and my... You know, and she was always busy. They were always doing trainings. And me, at the same time, I was doing training in explicit instruction for all, you know, for- Mm
Speaker 3: for all staff, and I would ask her, "When do they get that?" Mm-hmm. "When do, when do..." And they don't, and they didn't. Yeah. I mean, at least, you know... And, and so, uh, again, the, the gap widens. You, you have, you, you know, with regards to, uh, instructional expertise, because here you have, you know, ongoing professional development maybe in the general ed, and not for special ed.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna tell... You know, uh, you mentioned, you know, being an, an administrator. Uh, I do not in any way claim to have been a good administrator, you know, quite the opposite. But here's, let me tell you one of my first disappointments. Uh, going into a special day class and seeing that there was nothing different going on in that class instructionally Other than there were fewer students- Mm-hmm
Speaker 3: than was going on in the general ed class. And again, you know, now knowing what I know now about the lack of, of being included in the instructional piece, you know, how to provide instruction better, which would allow us to get to the SDI to where- Mm ... we could do that, but they're just, they don't, they don't get that.
Speaker 3: Uh, it have, okay, you're in a position in your district to provide training, but is that what you see as well? They just don't have the, the opportunities that they need to, uh, to develop additional expertise? I think so. Even though I would say that in my district, we are in, we're actually in year four. I would say this is, um, implementation, um, year four.
Speaker 4: Um, and, and it's very easy to Google my district and see we are actually going to be, we are, the, the federal government is actually taking a good look at our district. Um, they're monitoring them. They're investigating them, uh, I mean, all of the things. Um- I- it's, it's a litigious district, for sure. Um, but I, I will have to say, though, in, in, in defense, um, my superintendent is, um...
Speaker 4: I, I think things are going to change. We have a new superintendent. He was just installed about a month ago. Actually, not even a month ago. He, he's been an interim superintendent, um, for about a year. He became per- a permanent superintendent, um, a month ago. Um, he actually, his core belief is, um, uh, literacy is a human right, surprisingly not.
Speaker 4: And I, and I do believe him, um, and so I'm, I'm hopeful. He's somebody that, that listens, and, um, he's, he's been in education a while. He, he used to work for DeKalb before he left. He was a former principal in DeKalb. And so, um, uh, when I say I'm actually, um, hopeful that things are going to change, especially in the area for special ed, and for me, this is, this is bigger than special ed.
Speaker 4: All chil- all children. And so, leadership has... Okay, so let me say this. Um, people, right? I, I feel systems don't really fail. They fail because of our leaders That, that's the way I see it, right? You, you're going to... People have to be able to be inspired to do things because of who their leaders are. Change have to come from within because you gotta be inspired who are going to be leading this change.
Speaker 4: And I, I feel that, you know, my current superintendent has the will, the capacity to inspire that change, because he's been very open about his own... Like, you know, his dad had never graduated from high school, and so he has seen, he knows the value, um, of an education and how that can change, um, a person's life, and he sees this wider view of what it means.
Speaker 4: And so DeKalb has a lot of problems. Um, and, and with anything, change cannot happen overnight. One person cannot affect that change. I think it has to be collectively. You know, it's, and it's interesting that you described, uh, your superintendent and that he probably brings some of the similar passions that you bring based on a similar, similar story, uh, that you have, and that w- and, and that you said it's people.
Speaker 3: You know, it's people that need to, that are g- that are gonna make the change. And it's a pretty s- you know, w- we want to get the best students we can. We want students with, uh, with the passion that, that you've, that you've talked about, and going to school is pretty expensive, and we want, we wanna get them through...
Speaker 3: You know, we want them to make the sacrifice of going to school and piling up all this debt, and then, and then coming into a, a, a profession that's, that's not known for being well-paid. Do you think that, that the whole how we fund higher ed and the student loan process, is that a hindrance to, to g- getting some of the people that we would like to snag to be in our schools?
Speaker 4: Oh my God, that, th- we need to do, um, part two on this, this whole, um, this Oh. Oh my goodness, where should we start? Um, let, let, let's be honest here.
Speaker 4: And I, I, I, this, this, I'm gonna be transparent. Um, I have very strong views on certain things. Um, I think I may have told you, I'm really a politician in disguise as an educator. I have a background, my undergrad is in political science. Once upon a time, um, I, uh, uh, considered going to law school. Um, and then, you know, I decided, I don't know, um, maybe this is- Yeah
Speaker 4: my way of my advocacy. Um, I don't know. My, my kids, my family is saying it's still not too late, but who knows? Um- You're pr- you're pretty close. You're pretty, being in special ed, you're pretty close to being a lawyer, but go on. I, I don't know. I'm sorry. I, I, I, um, I, I, I did take the LSAT, and so I, I did get into a couple, but I, I, we'll, we'll see.
Speaker 4: Um, so but in, in all honesty, um, th- the Trump administration has, uh, made some rather drastic changes to the student loan, um, forgiveness program, and it's really, you know, impacted, um, educators. And, um, what would be the incentive to go into education? What would be, um, a motivation for any young people coming out of high school, um, to go, you know, sign up for a four year, to go?
Speaker 4: Um, most, um- people, you know, will, can't really afford college. Um, for me, it was, uh, as non-traditional as they come. I m- m- I'm still stuck with my whole loop with my student loan, and the crazy thing is, I have already had my 120 whatever, and so I'm stuck on this hell hostage MOHELA whatever. I, I don't even know what it is.
Speaker 4: Um, so I have wrote, wrote to everybody, and then they said, "Oh, okay. Af- like, it's just been on this loop of whatever craziness, and now I'm stuck at 119 payments for four years. So that's just me. That's just one thing. You can't get a, get, it's, it's a hell hostage thing. Yeah. But, um, what would be the incentive, right?
Speaker 4: So people make, um, career changes because of this. Um, when you... Trust matters to people. They change their whole life, um, for this. And it's not just teachers, right? W- w- like social workers, um, school psychologists, counselors that, people that we need, public service in general. What, what would be the incentive to go?
Speaker 4: People like me, m- I'm getting ready to retire in a couple of years, right? There's a whole lot of us that's getting ready to exit this profession. So w- w- what's, what would be the motivation?
Speaker 3: Oh, I think I have my answer. Okay. You know, you, you mentioned, you know, we could go on and on and on, and I got lots of questions, but let me ask you, do you have any questions for me before we say goodbye? Um, so you know, it, it actually kinda touch on this with this, um, student loan thing. Um, and I, I actually seen this l- um, really impacting my, um, my district and the surrounding districts actually, and I don't know in, in, in your area how this is impacting you.
Speaker 4: Um, but here, um, in my state, vouchers, um, it, it's, it's a big deal. So, um, we have You know, public funds, monies going into private, um, charter schools, um, private schools and, you know, in, in the public schools, um, we are held to a different standards, you know, including certifications, uh, curriculum, you know, all of the things.
Speaker 4: And so you have public funds going to private schools. There's no, I don't think any, um, accountability, and then you have this fiscal impact to the, the public schools, right? So I mean, for me, I feel like it's choice without transparency i- it's causing more of an, an... There, there's already an, um, inequities happening with special education in general, 'cause they had never funded special education, right?
Speaker 4: And so now we, we have this thing where funds are being diverted, public funds to private. So I, I don't know, what are your thoughts? How do you, how do you resembling at it? What do you feel? How you, you know, what do you think about voucher programs? First of all, let me stipulate I am no expert in this at all.
Speaker 3: Okay? And, uh, one of the things that, um, I haven't had to encounter this, most of my work has been in California, where we don't have that issue, but what we do have is we do have, um, schools, public schools worrying about, uh, kids leaving to go to charters, because all the funding is based on average daily attendance.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. So if they, if they lose students, uh, even though they're still in the district, then they lose, um, then they lose that funding. So, um, it's not exactly the same. The, uh, one of the big issues though for me is this special ed issue. I mean, because, uh, you know, I've talked to people who are very involved in the, in, in, uh, school choice and vouchers, and they said, "Well, you know what?
Speaker 3: Um, uh, maybe there'll be a school down the street for those kids." And I'm thinking, "Criminy sakes, now we're going back pre-IDEA." Hmm. Hmm. You know? That that's why the laws, that's why we have the laws that we have. You know, are the laws perfect? No, but they're a reaction to inequities that we had before.
Speaker 3: And, and you know, you have, you have, uh, again, part of that law is that, you know, their kids are, uh, you know, they have the right to an adequate and appropriate education. Right. I'm not saying it exactly correctly. Uh- Free and appropriate ... free and a- free and appropriate. So what happens is if you have a student, you know, uh, what do they call them?
Speaker 3: I don't know what they call them in Georgia, but a low incidence- Mm-hmm ... where you have a student that needs to be, uh, in a home care. It, you know, it, it's like a 24-hour care. There's no way that the, that one of these schools of, of a voucher school is one of, gonna wanna foot the bill for 150 grand a year to send this kid to where they, where they need to be.
Speaker 3: So, um, that's my issue. Uh, I, I, I think that there are going to be, in the future, a lot of different options for parents, and I, and I think that's a good thing. You know, I think all schools, whether they're public schools, private schools, charter schools, whatever they are, they should be able to say... A parent should be able to go in and, "Tell me about this school."
Speaker 3: And they should be able to say, uh, "We are a direct instruction school. We are an arts school. We are a, a medical prep school." Whatever, whatever it is, so that teachers, so that parents have a true, uh, way to judge why they want their kid to go to school there versus, "Oh, it's a good school." Well, we know what that's code for, you know?
Speaker 3: Right. In, in, in California, that's, that's code for, uh, you know, how many, how many, uh, kids of color are there? Mm-hmm. If there aren't a lot of kids of color, many people consider that a good school. So, um, uh, people ask me you know, "What is a good school?" I say, "I don't know. I don't know what a good school is."
Speaker 3: All I know is that s- that public education is much more wonderful than you ever imagined- And at the same time, it's like you can't believe how bad it is. And that's at the same school next door to each other. Yeah, yeah. The teachers next door. You know, we just, we just don't know. I'm rambling here. This is one of those things that I think about a lot.
Speaker 3: I do not have any answers, uh, but I know that we have to go back to the fact that all children deserve a free and appropriate education. Mm-hmm. And, and, and if that's part of the charter, and I'm using charter- Mm-hmm ... uh, in a broad sense, if that's part of the mission of the, of the school, uh, then I'm good.
Speaker 3: Then, then, then I'm, then I'm good with it. But, but the idea of just, um, you know, uh, grabbing students, I mean, you know, 'cause this is, this is the other, this is the other thing, uh, about classes that we know that many p- that parents don't know. You could remove three kids from a class, and all of a sudden the dynamics of that classroom have totally changed negatively.
Speaker 4: Yes. If you, you, if you just skim off all the students that are, that are doing well, and, uh, that's gonna, that's gonna have an impact. But what that means is that the, the school has a responsibility to make sure that we're not holding back those three kids either, that they're getting a, the appropriate education for themselves.
Speaker 3: So all this rambling just tells you that- ... there are... It's complicated, and, uh- Mm. Mm ... the fact, the fact that, um, uh, people think that we're a competitive country and schools need competition, don't buy that for a minute. Uh, people are doing the best they can. People- I think, I think that is- People are doing the best they can
Speaker 4: and that is it in a nutshell, right? You, people are doing the best they can, and, and, and public schools, I, I think we get a bad rap, but at the end of the day, we are doing the best that we can. Is it perfect? No, it's not. Yeah. Can we do better? Collectively, absolutely. Um, but we are doing the best that we can with what we have.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Well, Dr. Carper, let's leave it there. That's, that's almost positive in one of the most controversial episodes I've ever had. Oh, my goodness. And, and thank you for, and thank you for being a part of it. Uh, any, any last, any last, uh, words before we go? Any words of wisdom? Anything, anything that, that you think happens in special ed that we should just stop immediately?
Speaker 3: Can you think of anything? Um, you know, I think that parents, um, especially, um, parents that have a special needs child, um, they do the best they can every day. And, you know, I think, um, every child deserve the opportunity to be the best that they can. Um, but having that education, regardless if it is at a four-year school, two years, um, you know, uh, whatever it is, um, literacy, um, it, it, it has the trajectory to change generations' life.
Speaker 4: And if you are in the power, you, you have the ability to do something for that child, um, do it. Help a family. And, and you and your family are proof of that. Thank you very much for, for, uh, being a guest, Lida. I'm sure we will be talking soon. Yeah. I appreciate you having me on. Thank you so much. My pleasure.
Speaker 3: We'll talk soon. Yeah. Bye-bye.
Speaker 5: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. Also, please leave a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. You can follow me on BlueSky at gtavernetti, on Twitter/X at gtavernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, tesscg.com. That's T-E-S-S-C-G.com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast: Focused, Adaptable, Structured Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles