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The fun & fascinating stories of Supply Chain & Logistics.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:00:03] Hi, my name is Bryndis Whitson, and you're listening to the Zebras to Apples podcast, the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. Today I'm sitting down with Cindy Clark, president of Women in Supply Chain, or WISC. Cindy and I met when Women in Supply Chain was in its first iteration, and she was one of our chairs. And we had so many great conversations and a really great friendship developed from there. And this conversation really shows how many different areas supply chain and logistics is involved in. We talk about AI, we talk about farming, we talk about a whole bunch of things in between. And so with that, I hope you really enjoy this episode and have a wonderful day. So I'm here with Cindy Clark, and Cindy and I have known each other since about 2011. I think we met, the first time we met was at a Calgary either Logistics Council or it was a supply chain sector chat that we were having.
Cindy Clark: [00:01:08] I think it might have been the Calgary logistics, the one that was coordinated with the city.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:01:14] Yeah. So I wanted to kind of talk because you've got a really great background in supply chain, a whole bunch of different aspects. And I just wanted to kind of go through what your career history was to begin with.
Cindy Clark: [00:1:24] So that's kind of interesting because my evolution of supply chain probably came around the same time that the conversation was shifting in about 2011, when people were starting to have the conversation about what is a supply chain role and that there are positions in it, because I think we're all like, I believe that everybody's in supply chain. But when I look back, I was always in supply chain.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:01:51] Correct.
Cindy Clark: [00:01:52] You know, even to the point where we had a commercial truck repair facility and we were managing inventory. You had to get pieces, you know, movement of goods. I remember working with some of the construction companies and trying to navigate their equipment for repairs. And you just never thought of it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:02:13] No.
Cindy Clark: [00:02:14] You're a parts person. You're just ordering. You weren't. You didn't have a title. From there, I ended up opening up my own parts store in automotive and heavy duty.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:2:25] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:02:26] I just had a part store. Right. But then when you look back in the evolution and and inventory management and even the technology was just starting to become aware, you know, we were moving from the cards to the computer and we just identified that we had it, but then we were still living with the awareness that we know we've moved that or this is something you should have this many. And it was always very manual. Even with a computer. It's just that you didn't have cards. And then it got a little bit better in terms of the management. So when we went from the parts store in our specialty repair facilities, we got the franchise for Western Star. That's when you're dealing with the larger national international companies.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:03:14] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:03:15] And they had a different awareness. I could still remember Freightliner through what they would have had with Sterling Trucks bought Western Star. And because Freightliner couldn't buy Western Star because there was this consideration of, you know, monopoly and stuff. And this is how Daimler came into North America because they started off with a Mercedes vehicle, and didn't take off very well. It wasn't American. And then that's how they kind of came into North America. And then of course, there was this issue. Well, now they're going to buy all these things up. And eventually we knew that it was going to come down to the 10 to 4 kind of scenario anyway. And I remember them saying about how they have technology in their manufacturing and they use computers and it's all high tech. So I thought, oh, I can't wait to see this. They hadn't even got it right. Like they were kind of moving it. And you'd get a vehicle and you'd order it and then you'd have the pieces and you'd buy as you go. But you didn't hold on to anything. There wasn't real management, there wasn't forecasting. And that evolved over the time we had the franchise. So it was kind of like the whole sort of seeing the dynamic of how we saw the supply chain, inventory management and technology and then force. Why had the franchise I got? I bought it from my dad. And that's when Daimler was starting to really show a lot of awareness on technology, visibility on the vehicles. People are still reluctant because they didn't want someone to spy on them, but they had a technology before it was even discussed, that they could monitor your vehicle for you and identify anything coming down the pipeline for flaws.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:05:01] Oh, wow.
Cindy Clark: [00:05:03] But nobody wanted to be spied on. But they were okay with breaking down somewhere in no man's land with no visibility, and then trying to find support. And what this technology was doing, and people have obviously since bought into it, they could pre advise there's a problem happening, this is where the next dealership is. Parts are available here. This is the time frame. This is what you should do. So it was really a matter of people getting comfortable with it. And people had to have challenges until they realized this is where you're going to go. And then there was a consolidation prior to even the pandemic where manufacturers were starting to build and manufacture their own goods. So that changes a lot of the dynamics of the supply chain where you're getting it. And Daimler started to be aware of problems with the product. So they were changing from their engines where they weren't focused necessarily on what would have been the Detroit, which they ended up buying anyway. And caterpillars. And so they did the Mercedes power and they had problems and it didn't do well. But what they realized is that if they had any one location that had an issue with availability, they would be trapped. Right. So they built factories in three different continents.
Cindy Clark: [00:06:24] On the engines. Different sizes. But they could all be swapped quickly on the manufacturing line to meet the need in any other district.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:06:32] Okay.
Cindy Clark: [00:06:34] So watching all that, you started to realize an awareness of supply chain, global procurement and availability. So we really didn't know the supply chain.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:06:45] No, because it was trucking which is transportation, which is.
Cindy Clark: [00:06:50] But they didn't even call logistics. It was just transportation trucking. So anyway, it was interesting. So when I look back at it, we've always been in it, but then it's just been a slow drip to get to that spot.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:07:04] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:07:04] So it's kind of entertaining. And I think that was probably when the conversation was. I was aware of it because of the Gateway Project, and we were talking about more employment, but it really didn't take off until the Van Horn at that time realized, okay, there's a shortage. We all know that MRU and SAIT were just talking about having programs and developing them, and it became really clear about supply chain. Yeah, there was a shortage of people, but they didn't know what that really meant. And they didn't have titles. They hadn't identified anything at all on a professional level. So that changed. But at the same time, what we still have is a resistance to a chosen generation. Generally men of, well, who do we bring in? How do we identify if they have any value? We need to get them trained quickly, but they didn't even recognize that they already had the staff, they had the people, but they just didn't give them a good name. And so then that came out. That's when the women in the supply chain happened. And I was at this time still in the dealership side of it and engaged in that portion of it. But at no point, even as just being a property owner, you're still dealing with the supply chain completely. And every day I get up, I'm dealing with supply chains. I see it differently in different times, having moments of, I call it, unwelcome circumstances, like a bad accident. You start to realize the supply chain. And I remember sitting there looking when I got a chance at Alberta Health Care and the supply chain in the hospitals.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:08:48] Oh, it's huge.
Cindy Clark: [00:08:50] But, you know, you really watched it, and I was there just. I was in the hospital just near the end of how they were handling the pandemic. And it was wild.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:09:01] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:09:02] How they're like, I would identify with the procurement and it's not totally different now. They've kind of got it down a little bit more organized, because I look at the gloves and the masks and all the little pieces and all how they store it, and they can't even get the holders to be matched for the gloves. And they're all different manufacturers.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:09:24] Yes.
Cindy Clark: [00:09:26] So you ask yourself, what's the procurement process here?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:09:30] Yeah, yeah. And then you've got ones where, you know, someone's allergic to like latex. So then they've got their own type of gloves. So then you've got to have the third type. But yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:09:42] Oh yeah.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:09:43] Or the fourth type.
Cindy Clark: [00:09:44] But wouldn't it make sense if some are allergic that you just make them all for everybody. You just never have to think about it, right. That would make sense.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:09:55] It would when you think about it like that.
Cindy Clark: [00:09:58] You know, and and then the quality I remember when during the pandemic And we were working on a program with the MTA to put together packages for the truck drivers who were going that were traveling, especially if they're going stateside and they needed their masks and all these materials. And it was mind boggling how hard it was to get all that material. It wasn't so much the issue of getting people to put the money into it, but trying to find a consistent value in terms of masks.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:10:31] Yes.
Cindy Clark: [00:10:31] I mean, we know that. I mean, globally it was an issue. But, um, I just told you it showed and it still hasn't improved, which is mind boggling to me that they haven't taken the opportunity to find a consistent process. But then everybody wants to be in the market. So then who do you eliminate?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:10:51] Everyone has their preference of which style they like the best.
Cindy Clark: [00:10:55] And yeah, but there's no system in place to navigate the next pandemic. It didn't improve, hasn't changed. It hasn't gotten better. You can see that when you go back to the hospital. Take a look at it. You know, if one large purchasing group can't buy one consistent product from one consistent manufacturer, then you know, it hasn't established a system in place because they don't identify and they don't separate them. So if they said, well, this mask is for that person. This mask is for that person, then you don't put them both together.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:11:31] No.
Cindy Clark: [00:11:32] You identify for what use that they're going to be. So when they're separated you can identify it. But when you see that they're not separated, you know, it's just that they tried to find it and they just got it wherever they could get it. So we're not in a pandemic and we're having problems, then it's a problem. Right. So those are the little things that I still pick up on.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:11:55] Oh yeah. Totally.
Cindy Clark: [00:11:57] And then having a horse, which is even more interesting, is that you don't even really think that's where I'm kind of going down with the agricultural side of it. And the lack of awareness that we have as consumers in the simple things, saying that you can't get good hay for cattle, that means, like your ones you eat, or your pet cattle like your horses or the goats or, people have all of them for no reason other than to spend a lot of money. But it makes a difference on the hay.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:12:32] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:12:33] And that means the environment has to be taken into consideration. So now we have to take into consideration the environment and the weather and fires and then.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:12:43] The floods, atmospheric rivers. Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:12:45] But everyone says well they get their say all over the place. Straw and hay for an animal is different in quality of what's in the proteins. And the sugars can either actually have an animal thrive or die, right? So now you have another problem.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:13:03] Yeah. So making sure that you're getting the right type.
Cindy Clark: [00:13:08] And like a lot of manufactured food that they produce is heavy soy. And that can be very detrimental to an animal. Yeah. But if you're just doing high protein to fatten them up, that's a big difference. But we don't ask ourselves what's in there. How do we get there? I'm not expecting everybody to suddenly become holier than thou and make demands on it. But if we're going to put a negative pressure on the farmers or the cattle producers, then we better step back and ask, what's really involved here? What's actually what the farmer does to get them to the feedlot is two different worlds. And what happens from the feedlot to the producer, like the processors? Another totally different game.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:13:48] Fully.
Cindy Clark: [00:13:48] So we always say, well, the farmers are causing problems. Farmers are barely making it. So if we don't even pay attention to that then we have a whole other issue. So then you go down that part of it. As we have talked before and recently is then the whole environment of circular economy we were talking about Hal. And I remember her doing a speech for the Women in Supply Chain about circular economy and about how the car manufacturers are doing stuff and about how the clothing industry. And I think we're lying to ourselves.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:14:25] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:14:26] Because we don't have anything in place. And it's okay to be honest. But then if we're expecting something, then we have to ask, how can we create that conversation in that direction to make those things happen? So I always say that eventually I'm never going to be bored till the end.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:14:44] Nope.
Cindy Clark: [00:14:45] Definitely always going to be something, right. And there's so many things. So now we go down the AI story. And I think I've mentioned this to you too. I refuse to die, stupid.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:14:56] No.
Cindy Clark: [00:14:57] So I took AI classes, done a lot of, you know, reading and research and trying. And I remember one of the gentlemen I had in one of the conversations about AI saying, just try and break it like it's okay. Like, be careful what you put in it and what access you give something, but it's okay, but you have to break it to try it. I've tested it and it's still annoying. But then you go down the research and realize that politics can make a real problem without mentioning too many names. Yeah. So now you have a country that's been isolated to some degree in terms of their percentage of export opportunities and import restrictions. So you would sit there and everyone says, well, we have to have the government give us more opportunities for global trade. Governments actually have set up a lot that's sitting there.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:15:52] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:15:53] But it's kind of like that. Well governments aren't supposed to do your job, and you need to access that information, and you have to see what you have available to offer in another country, and you have to find out where the market is. Governments ought to give you a step, but you've got to be the one to put your foot up and move it. And so if they don't have the visibility and technology to have that interaction with the global market, then we're not going to thrive. And so I was kind of curious about all that and did a lot of checking and research and challenging all the research opportunities that are in our new marketplace and technology. And Canada is grossly behind on our technology adoption.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:16:40] Yes.
Cindy Clark: [00:16:41] And I was actually shocked because I thought we were actually a lot better. And in terms of visibility to deal with countries like South Korea or even the Middle East, we don't have the same technology that they would look to want to deal with us with. And they say that in terms of adoption for technology, small to medium businesses, like 13%.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:04] Right. Oh, wow.
Cindy Clark: [00:17:07] Yeah. And so I challenged myself because I thought it was kind of crazy. Like that's bad. AI is worse.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:14] Mhm.
Cindy Clark: [00:17:15] Because you need to have the technology to bring in the AI. And if you don't understand the technology and you just think I'm going to use AI. Have you secured your use of AI? So I've talked to a few people about it in government and they said they've approached businesses and asked them like, are you going to upgrade? Are you going to look at new technology? Well, you know, it's worked this way for this long and I'm going to retire. But that's not how that's going to work because there's going to be a complete void. So we've got to come up with a way that if you think you're going to. Are you selling something or are you just going to close something? And who's going to come in behind to help navigate the next?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:56] Who is behind? And do they understand us?
Cindy Clark: [00:17:59] Yeah. And the thing is, with the international rules, in terms of visibility on labor laws and procurement of products in certain countries, to assume that where you bought it is a good enough excuse to not get in trouble. Well, apparently that's very wrong, because I was curious about that. And there is the global law now and it's global that if you purchase something without doing your due diligence, you could be charged up to 400,000 per issue.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:18:28] Oh that's huge.
Cindy Clark: [00:18:30] Yep. But nobody knows because nobody's taken the technology or paying attention. But it's not happening to me, so I'm not going to worry about it. So I'd like to see the opportunity to sort of get to the small and medium businesses. They run about 90% of the country, and that's actually in North America generally. And to kind of get them aware, the grants are there to say that, well, is there anything available to help or is there any opportunities? There's always something. The cost of not doing it is actually more than doing it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:19:00] I think that maybe it is a big thing for getting people to know that the cost of doing something is actually not, or not doing something is actually more expensive. And I think maybe it's shifting the focus for people to realize that, too.
Cindy Clark: [00:19:15] It's teaching them that, helping them understand a different conversation. So my memory of cost of ownership was always the thing when we were selling trucks, we were never the cheapest and we never said we were. We didn't even apologize for it. But we would say that the cost of ownership in this timeframe, we can guarantee you is going to be lower. But then you have procurement people and they just had to do that dollar. That's got to be the bottom dollar. We saw a lot of large purchasers, even even in municipalities and cities, make decisions based on that bottom dollar and then cost them so much more because of downtime. They weren't given the right information on the procurement, signed off on it, and they got vehicles that didn't work.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:20:00] Oh, yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:20:02] And so then they basically got a lead weight. And so then they're having what should have been a 4 to 5 year procurement shift. They were tightening it to 2 to 3 because they didn't have what they needed to do the jobs that they had actually made the procurement for.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:20:16] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:20:17] It's no different than technology. It's no different than just waiting it out. And it'll all change and it'll straighten out. It's only going to get faster and it's going to happen quicker. And it's either a decision- you're in or you're out. And if you're going to get out, you better get out quickly because you're going to get eaten alive, and you're going to lose more money than you're ever going to make. And there's basic and simple technology that can help, and you have to get over the fact, well, I don't want them to see what they have in my stuff. There's enough technology. I think it comes down to having redeveloping and realigning conversations with the small to medium businesses. I think that we have to get past trying not to hurt our feelings. Mexico actually has an adoption rate, I think, of about 30 to 40% in technology and AI.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:21:11] Oh, wow.
Cindy Clark: [00:21:12] And the US is, I think, kind of going to 60%. And we may get to 21 days. We can do a lot faster, but we're afraid of taking into consideration any investments. We, like I say, here's an example of people not realizing they're in the supply chain. Communicating with policymakers and understanding that sometimes you're not doing yourself a favor in impeding some things because you're protecting something at the cost of having nothing, right? And if we have a conversation about policy makers in terms of sort of giving investment to help small and medium businesses might be outside of our area out of Canada because no one in Canada is interested, but there's a market outside that says we'll invest to help because you have something we need. Then they have to be more willing to allow that investment. They've got to find a way to do it. Because to say that we don't have any Canadian investors, there's people probably producing or have access or a capacity to create something that isn't exportable goods. And if nobody's going to invest in Canada for something that they don't see a value internally, that's fine. But if there's somebody externally that wants to invest in that business, we should allow it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:22:36] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:22:47] And we don't. We have such a restriction in terms of investment opportunities and stuff that we and we see in the big stuff. So you can imagine it's going to be harder on the smaller stuff. Yeah. And we need to make them more competitive. That's not to say all policy makers are bad. It's just that there's a need for greater information. And just to say that you're going to open up a market so they can export. But you've got to give them the tools to export. You've got to give them the understanding of what that costs, what that means. And I don't think the government should keep investing in businesses to help them.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:22:12] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:22:12] Because that's not the goal. The goal is to help businesses invest in businesses. So everybody thrives. Because when governments change, when things, let's face it, globally, when debt overcomes capacity, what happens? Those programs disappear. Those monies get pulled back. But if business to businesses are thriving and they need each other, you're not going to see that pull back. It'll be because you're generating an income. You're actually generating a value profit. Governments don't look at that. They're not profit builders. So just tell them to say we're going to give you some money. We're going to help you out. We're going to give these tools. But as soon as you have a monetary challenge, you don't think of what you're doing to the people that you've given them the space of opportunity. But the encouragement is for business to business success. And not all business is going to be successful within Canada. But engagement outside of Canada would be good. I'm not saying we should give up ownership. I know that they say that there's only so much of a percentage that you can let an external investor have. That's fine, but 10% of something is better than 0% of nothing. Like, yeah, we got to look at the math and see where we can give them opportunities to get investment in. Because Canadians, we're risk averse to our demise. And until we get sort of the engagement of increasing or encouraging those who are a little bit more willing to take that risk, we'll see the benefit and then it'll kind of snowflake. It's one person at a time.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:24:49] Exactly. And I think,I even look at the way the conversation about AI has really evolved just even two years, let alone three. And the amount that it's really shot up in usage, etc. is really something to see just as an evolution.
Cindy Clark: [00:25:09] Do we want to go down there?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:25:10] No we won't. We don't want to go down there. But I just thought I'd. Yeah, just saying it. It's kind of like it reminds me of that conversation that we had, like in 2011, 2012, and someone's, like, would bring up the conversation of, well, we should really look at autonomous vehicles, and the rest of the room would laugh and say, not in my lifetime. And then that would go as far as the conversation would go. And there we were in 2014 and everything shifted. And suddenly there was like, look at all these autonomous vehicles, all of these different pieces. And so suddenly the conversation would switch so quickly in that period of time.
Cindy Clark: [00:25:52] Well, the thing that people don't realize is that anything manufactured recently is actually autonomous. They just haven't turned it all on. It's not all set up because there's no infrastructure, because our policymakers didn't get it right. Yeah. It's like the cost to try and navigate between province to province or state to state for the technology to read all the different roads or all the markers, or take six months to get a line on a curve so that the car won't go off the edge because it's looking for a marker?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:26:32] Exactly.
Cindy Clark: [00:26:33] That's where the problem is.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:26:35] Mhm.
Cindy Clark: [00:26:36] It's all there.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:26:37] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:26:37] We're just there. No, they know enough. For example, if you put it on for automatic steer and and some are a bit more sensitive than others and it'll follow. But it doesn't have the common sense yet because the way the roads are varied that they can just turn right automatically. So some roads if you go and then there's the dotted line, that's what they call it's dotted. It's there. And unless the signal lights that you have to still put on because you can't talk to you yet, it will automatically go because it doesn't see a solid line.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:27:10] Yes.
Cindy Clark: [00:27:11] But if there's nothing it'll just go right. So they need to have consistency. So if I'm going to turn right and I don't want it to go without me telling it, I need that dotted line and it'll hesitate. But if I don't put a signal on, it's going to keep going straight. Yeah, but if I put the signal line on, it knows, okay, I'm going to take that dotted line because it's an accent.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:27:33] Exactly.
Cindy Clark: [00:27:34] But the technology is there. But none of the rules are consistent.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:27:37] Right? And I remember this one graph one time and it was talking about levels of automation. And I was like, well, I've got a, you know, 2006 Toyota Corolla. It's not autonomous at all. And then I was like, but there's cruise control and there's ABS brakes. So it's not autonomous, but it's got one or two little features that were like the beginning phases of these things.
Cindy Clark: [00:28:04] And a lot of them are there, like, and I mean, even if you take a look at your vehicle. So it used to be when we had parts and service that it was a 1 to 1, a dollar, part dollar service. Now it's completely shifted where it's now probably 60 to 70% labor. And then some parts and those parts are like a large scale, like a full engine, complete failure wire harness, which you hear of more and more. And then when it comes to accents, you've got more pieces, but now it's more technology, it's more electronic. It's plugged in, read. Know the trees to diagnose what's going on. Yeah, they can download everything into it now. They can do self repairs that that's been actually around for quite a while. But it's become more common and people are more aware of it. So like I mean I decided to buy, I needed a new stove and a fridge and I'm looking at it and I'm like, oh, this is going to be expensive, and it crashes because that's the reality. It's electronic. It's cheaper now just like I can set it up and have my stove actually turn on in advance for me, not my burners, because it's gas, but my stove. I can get it pre, get it, turn it on and run wherever I want. But when that goes down it's not going to be cheap.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:29:37] No.
Cindy Clark: [00:29:38] Probably cheaper to buy a new stove. Those are the realities of it. But the technology is there and until it's more solid. So we say to ourselves, well, why don't they make something that doesn't break? Well, anything can be made that way, but it doesn't function within society because people want new things to say, that we want something to live forever. We don't. We think we do. But they do try to get a certain length of time out of it. But we have to be realistic. Things are designed to fail and that's okay. But it's consumer driven. But to think that we don't have it all there is false to say that I'm going to put all these privacy and security features on my phone, and I'm going to not go into this AI platform. I'm not going to go into that technology because they're not going to hear or see me. And because they're, you know, they're putting something into my head or something. They have known all about us for a very long time. And to suddenly hope that we are off the grid is wrong because the people off the grid are even, they know where they are. Now they're to say, well, how come they can't find the thieves from the Louvre? Well, it's not perfect science, but in terms of, you know, knowing what your credit rating is, well, you want to go to the bank. You're going to know.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:30:54] Knowing your shopping habits. Yeah. Like Walmart, Canadian Tire, all of those places have been tracking that information for years, for decades.
Cindy Clark: [00:31:04] Yeah, yeah. And as soon as they could put it through a scanner and your name was on a credit card, they knew who you were, what you were doing.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:31:10] And the moment you signed up for a loyalty card or.
Cindy Clark: [00:31:14] Or you wanted, you went to the bank and you opened a bank account or. Yes. I mean, and everyone's saying, well, technology is bad now AI, they're going to do all these things. The only thing that changed is they got a little bit better, a little bit faster. But fraud's been here forever. Yeah, it's just there. They can do it a little bit better. And now we have to be a little bit more astute. We got to be a little bit more aware. So it's actually our lack of engagement, our lack of taking on technology and being engaged with it is what's hurting our industry, hurting us. Because if we don't know what it can do, we don't know what it's doing to us.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:31:48] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:31:49] So, for example, in terms of how women are even 25% below men in global AI adoption, we have this sensitivity about it, you know, being unsafe, unethical.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:32:06] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:32:06] But if we don't put our information in, we get what got put in. Right. So if less women are communicating or engaging in their conversations or participating in what they want to put in, because here it is, an LLM is because and you can test it, you take Perplexity and Claude and Chat and Gemini. And there's a few more. A lot more, actually. And you say, oh, they're so you give them all the same question. You're not going to get the same answer, right? So you ask why they're all LLMs. They're all giving me information back. Why wouldn't they be the same? Because. And this is where Meta Tealbook has where there was that panic on this for a while because they paid to buy the guy where everyone went to get the information.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:33:04] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:33:05] And then some of them all feed into different features. There's a whole hierarchy, like a whole history of books and documents that have not even been looked at yet. What do you think? The Vatican is going to give up their stuff?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:33:19] No.
Cindy Clark: [00:33:20] So you have unlimited access to the full knowledge base. They're all getting different information put in, and they're all going to give you different information coming out.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:33:31] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:33:31] And if one company for Plexi, for example, is very research based, very scientific and its analysis, they're looking for different information.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:33:40] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:33:41] And then you say, well Chat will do an image and Gemini will do an image. Well you're not going to get anywhere near the same. So then you say, okay, if they're all getting LLMs and they're all going to give you this information, why are they different? Because what we allow it to go in, what we participate in terms of the research we want vetted. And if we say don't go in and say this is wrong. This has got to be corrected. And you can tell it you're not going to get an improvement. And that's the issue. So anyway about where women can get involved is having the conversation. So if a business is going to have access or give information on an LLM program, then they can challenge what they're receiving by pushing what information is going in. It's no different than now. HR companies are being sued because of their bias. Well, the problem is that they're fed unlimited information where there's young men, for example, saying that these are all the things you need to understand. This is what men do. This is what we think about this. And then these guys are saying, well, this is what we think these people are like. This is what we believe those people are doing. And it's no different than when we do facial recognition. Well, if you don't put all the faces there, you're not going to get that breadth of recognition.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:35:05] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:35:06] So if you don't take the time to get engaged to put that information in, I mean, so here's the deal. If you don't want to share that, if you don't want to put your face out there. Now, I'm not saying go on and do that crazy stuff, but part of the design of the programs is to get engaged where you see opportunities to share what your knowledge is. Be a part of a program that's doing face recognition work and they use your face. Do you use your face to identify a female under certain circumstances, an age and color and tone? If we don't do all those things, then we're going to be washed into all the young men that are doing it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:35:41] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:35:51] And then they're all now they don't have enough black or brown people. So they can't distinguish the features that are very, very minute and very select. So they're all categorized as a problem. And so if we don't put that in then we have a problem with what we're getting out. And that's women especially because we have such a fear and want of protection that we are in control of either letting it tell us what to do, or we can be engaged and tell it what to do.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:36:23] True. And I think sometimes it's also the feeling, at least from some people that I've spoken to, including myself. It almost feels like it's cheating in a way.
Cindy Clark: [00:36:35] For you to shit in, shit out.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:36:37] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:36:38] So if you really do some research, people don't realize that a lot of governments, especially governments who want to control the narrative, will feed false research, false documents published saying they're all done that way. Especially governments that can say that this researcher who's in their level did this. So it's got to be right. And then they put all this in and all the LLM does is take, say, my best perception is with all the data I have, that that's got to be the answer. It only makes an assumption based on the information it has. There's no accuracy in terms of it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:37:19] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:37:19] The only time that they can actually be really close to an accurate process is in numbers and in science. Because ironically, numbers really can't go too wrong. They know the math, they figure out the scientific calculations, and those people have put in that high level of it. That's why they can get it done, because they can just do the calculations quicker. They can come to the assumption quicker. Eventually we'll get there, but they just have the capacity to do it quicker. Yeah, but if you have a couple published documents about some theory and everybody, there's ten documents that have different theories, they make an assumption based on those ten documents. This is what your answer should be.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:38:05] Mhm.
Cindy Clark: [00:38:06] It's no different than they asked about the top ten books that you should read. And then not one of those books existed, but the presumption was based on these authors and they're often that they publish and the names are sort of similar. They just assumed it because they didn't vet it, they didn't question it. And as humans, that's when we question.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:38:26] I know, and that's when you really need to vet the-
Cindy Clark: [00:38:28] And you need to ask yourself, who is this published by. And you can ask but you say show me the research where you got it and have it validated it. We just don't just ask questions and run. How did you get your information? What was your logic? Why did you make the decision, like just ask it. But we don't because we get comfortable with one program because we want to think it's right. But if it doesn't feel it's no different than if you're somebody sort of telling you, like, you kind of feel it, it's no different than the computer. So it's the same thing in how we're doing our everyday life. We're assuming that it's somebody else's fault that this didn't get built or the environment's bad or we don't want to hear it. So when we get the truth, the news is bad and it's real. It's really come to the point of it's a little late right now. We got to recover quickly. Yeah. And so it's no different than everyone wanting to deny climate change. Well, that's always going to happen. Okay. Let's go with that theory. Climate change is going to happen. It doesn't matter what we do. Yeah but it's here. So just say climate change is happening and it's just natural. It doesn't matter what we do, but we still have to deal with climate change.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:39:44] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:39:45] So like what part of this are you not quite getting? I'm okay with your logic, whether I think it's wrong or not. And if the water is rising and we're flooding and cities and towns are getting wiped out for floods and storms and fires, who cares why it's happening? What are we going to do about it? Right. But nobody wants to do that part. They're just arguing about whether you're right. You're wrong. In the meantime, we've lost cities.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:40:18] We've lost because we're not lives.
Cindy Clark: [00:40:20] We have no communities. We can't feed each other because we're fighting about who cares about who's right or wrong. We have a problem.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:40:29] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:40:30] So these are the pieces that all touch the supply chain. So we know you've got an environment. Let's get over who's right or wrong. Let's fix the problem. We're looking for-
Bryndis Whitson: [00:40:41] It impacted so many pieces.
Cindy Clark: [00:40:43] Yeah. So everyone's looking to try and sort of look for, make a problem out of a solution. Well, you're saying that the solution is to fix the food issue, but the problem is that you've got the wrong attitude. No, that's not how we have to look at it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:41:01] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:41:02] So the conversation has to build on the little pieces. And I, my reality is that yeah, I'd love to have everybody think I'm right. I'm the first person to tell you I'm wrong because I don't know it at all. But I have a sense that this doesn't seem right. Then, okay, who might know? And maybe there's three people and they all have a different opinion. Yeah, okay. You all have an opinion. Can you tell me which one of you can tell me how we're going to feed these people?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:41:32] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:41:32] Period. I don't care what your theory is. How do you feed the people or how do you make sure that we can have homes that can survive a tornado or a hurricane?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:41:44] Yeah. How are you.
Cindy Clark: [00:41:45] Yeah, well, it costs too much money. Well, how much is it costing you now? It's a little late now. Yeah. Because so here in terms of the supply chain on a personal level. And this is why I say supply chain starts from the bottom on a micro before it ever gets to the macro. The Province of Alberta, especially in Calgary right now is probably going to have insurance issue coverage. It's going. People are upset. That's going high. Don't worry about being high. Get ready for being gone. There are a lot of insurance companies who are leaving, and the reasoning is and it's and it makes absolute sense, but we don't want to look at it because it's easier to just hope someone else will fix it for you. But on those swaths of areas in any place, B.C., Saskatchewan, Alberta. But Alberta has really got a problem with hail. And the insurance companies have said and industries have said that they need to mandate product requirements.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:42:44] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:42:44] Or and not vinyl. Be careful what kind of asphalt, because not all asphalt can handle all the weather. You probably have to look at a mix of a product because then you have, now you have fire and you have hail, and then you have cold and the winds are changing. So when I was helping with a roofing situation with. With who you know. Yeah, I went down the rabbit hole because I thought, this is when I realized there was a problem. There was a real pushback. Insurance companies were pulling back. People couldn't afford their insurance. And I was kind of like, well, what's going on? And they have said that there are sections where the insurance companies are saying that they don't think that they'll stay because they don't. They can't keep coming back to fix these things, instead we keep repeating our own mistakes instead of fixing it and going on.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:43:38] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:43:38] So if we keep saying, well, it's cheaper for vinyl, great. But the insurance companies say if you put vinyl on, we're not going to insure you. And then they're going to be mad. Well, you can't tell me what to do. No, I can say you we're not going to insure you because you've chosen that. Because we can't afford to cover it anymore. And so we're kidding ourselves because we think we're doing a cheap product. Well, if you did the math on how much your insurance is going to cost you to put a higher quality product that can meet all those requirements. Then the insurance companies are in a position where they can help. Insurance companies are going broke. They're disappearing. So do what you want. You're not going to have a choice. So now you have a policy. Then you have people who are pushing governments say, oh, no, this is an industry you can't harm. You got to protect us. At what cost? For your buck or for the people's protection? And so those are the little things that in terms of conversation that come basically down to our supply chain and how we look at it. And if you took half of the city of Calgary that all moved towards this product that was going to be of value, those prices come down true. So it's supply and demand. So if you encourage people to recognize that if they don't do this, their insurance will say, if you put a board and batten like a cedar or cement based siding, or I wouldn't even say stucco is going to be the best thing ever. And you do that, your insurance comes down, and if you do this, your insurance comes down. Eventually one's going to catch on. Well, it costs me 100,000. It's not going to cost that much for most homes. 100 roof and siding all in one. And I do the math over and I'm paying $5,000 a year in insurance. It's not going to take long.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:45:33] No.
Cindy Clark: [00:45:34] And the thing is, eventually each year you're going to get insurance. But if you don't, what happens when you don't get insurance?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:45:42] There's oh.
Cindy Clark: [00:45:43] It's out of pocket. So people think that someone else is going to fix it for them. And that's not the reality. It really comes down to our supply chain. It comes down to our awareness, our engagement, our questioning and taking responsibility. So if a business doesn't want to get involved in technology and they hope someone else will take care of something, that we're kidding ourselves. So those are the conversations. And it's getting sort of past saying, well, we don't want to make anyone feel bad or we don't want to insult them. It's not an issue of insulting.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:46:19] No, but making people aware changes the context completely.
Cindy Clark: [00:46:22] Yeah. Empower them. Yeah, and if you don't think it's the decision is if you don't as a business want to do well or like, you don't want to take on the technology, you think it's too expensive and you don't want to get grants, or you don't want to maybe negotiate with your supplier or somebody say, can you assist me in getting this so that I can help you with that? That's your choice.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:46:44] Mhm.
Cindy Clark: [00:46:45] But when things go bad and you're losing your market place and you can't get employees, and because no one wants to work with somebody who's not moving forward, you can't blame anybody but yourself.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:46:56] Mhm.
Cindy Clark: [00:46:57] It's no different than saying for myself, well I could be healthier if I worked out, but I'm not getting healthier until I work out. So whose fault is that? It's not anybody else's fault. Asking the drug company to give me something to help me isn't going to make me any better. In ten years, when I can't get anywhere because the drugs didn't make me healthier, they just helped hide my problem completely. And that is basically the same as what we all hope for, that someone else is going to come in and take care of it for us. They're struggling to take care of their own mess. I mean, we have a pandemic. There's some great harm on our governments budgets. And right now, their whole theory behind a government's involvement, which I don't think anyone's figured out on the government's side, is that they're supposed to take care of the roads. And if they have health care, not all countries have it. That they make sure that health care is available might not be perfect, but you have to get basic health care available.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:47:53] Very much so.
Cindy Clark: [00:47:53] And then they make sure that they as a country that we're protected. And the big picture stuff; wildfires in the forestry. Well that's the government has to take care of that because communities, that's not where they're at. But then at the community level now, we have to take care of something. And if that means that you have to do a little bit on your space, then that's what you have to do. But we have to take responsibility. I mean,there are days I'd love to blame the next guy, but I look in the mirror and realize there's nobody coming to save me unless I get out there. I might find someone to help me. I might be able to learn who to communicate to get that information, but no one's going to just make it happen for me. So that's really what it comes to. And I look at that like I say, everything I see in terms of how it's working, what's happening is going to touch the supply chain.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:48:44] Fully. If you were to give advice to someone entering the industry or pivoting their careers, what advice would you give?
Cindy Clark: [00:48:51] Really broad, really open. So it kind of depends on where they're coming from. Age being one, what they're coming, where are they coming out of and what is it they want to do. And how old they are. Because time can help a lot in today's world. I think that we need to be self aware of education on technology. Period. Doesn't matter. What you're going to do, doesn't matter what career you want to be. Even if you decide you're going to retire tomorrow, you need to learn about technology. You need to learn the basics about how technology works from inventory, how you purchase, how it's being impacted, how you're being fed your information. And you should learn about AI. Two different things. Because if you don't become self aware of what's happening around you, you can't engage in it when you need to use it for work. And then if you get smart enough at it, then you can actually be a participant in encouraging where you're at or what you want to do. So it's interesting enough in the supply chain because it depends on what you're doing. If you're out of school and you've decided you're going to go into supply chain and you're trying to decide if you're going to do procurement or you're going to do logistics or whatever facet that you want to get into is to ask yourself why? What about it is important. And where is a value added for you, because procurement isn't just ordering and it isn't just handling the inventory management, it's the whole cycle. Logistics is not just being in a trucking company or an airline. It's basically even just moving a product from one room to the next. Where do you see, is it the movement of it? Is it the ordering of it? Is it the manufacturing of it? Where do you want to go? And then find anything if you're young enough. Try it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:50:48] All true.
Cindy Clark: [00:52:49] You don't know what you don't know until you get there.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:50:51] Exactly.
Cindy Clark: [00:50:52] As much as I don't want to put down all the big manufacturers or big warehouses, the airlines, the big trucking companies. Somebody needs you and they're not going to hire you, and they're going to put an ad in the paper. They're not coming. You got to go. It's not even just going to a networking event. It's not even just doing LinkedIn. It's actually saying, okay, what industries are kind of interesting?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:51:16] What do I like?
Cindy Clark: [00:51:19] What do I like? I told one young girl, she said, I'm trying to find a job. I don't know what's going on, you know, everyone's applied to everything. I'm not going to say you shouldn't apply in certain things. But I said, you know, have you ever thought of going to a small warehouse, a wholesaler in Calgary, even in the region? And she said, what do you mean? Well, it was spring. And I said, do you know, why don't you find a flower or like a gardening center wholesaler and say you're a student in supply chain with a business this and and you are looking for a summer job to work in this field, and you would like the opportunity to work there. And if they would allow you to try and utilize some of your training to assist them as an option there again, again and you're going to learn and have a summer job. And I said did you think of that like there's just taking the florist for example. Or you like anybody who has a need for it very much. So don't look for a job that says, oh, you're a supply chain person, because 90% of the companies out there don't even know they need supply chain.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:52:33] They don't realize it.
Cindy Clark: [00:52:34] Yeah, they think that when you say supply chain. Oh, you mean trucking company.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:52:39] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:52:39] No. And so you actually need to go into an industry that you think, oh, that's kind of cool. I'm going to go in there and say, I'm going to make you a deal, I need a summer job, or I would like to get into this industry. This is what I bring. I would like the opportunity to work here, and I would like the opportunity to share my knowledge and share, you know, maybe grow from it. You'd be surprised how many people would be like, heck yeah, but they don't know until you go talk to them. And then there's the good one. Well, they're not going to pay me enough. Well, here's how this works. You're not getting paid anyway. Don't worry about the pennies yet. Worry about the opportunities. Because when you put it on your job, on your resume that you worked in this industry doing these jobs, then the next company is going to say, okay, they've taken, they tried. Or if you're brave, like really have confidence in what your capacity to do is say, I'll make you a deal. I'll work with you on a contract basis. I believe that my capacity in this information or this experience could maybe help you. And if I help you increase value or money, are you willing to maybe look at giving me a bonus after the salary after this base hourly. I always said when people apply for me, to me, if you're going to make if they said I'll make you money, heck, I don't hire them. The deal is, if you make me money, I'll pay you more. Now I'll pay you more and then you show up. It's the other way. Business is savvy. Business people will do that. Yeah. You've got to have confidence. The other thing that I've found a little bit disheartening is the immigration challenges. We need them. I don't want to go down that conversation about that, but there are these young people, probably people who are a little older than just general, coming out of universities or SAIT that have a breadth of knowledge. No, it's not here. But if you want to deal with somebody in another country one day. Yeah. Wouldn't you hire someone who knows the country?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:54:43] Very much.
Cindy Clark: [00:54:44] Knows the language? And wouldn't you even like to learn what they know from dealing in that country, so that you can have knowledge that you didn't have before?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:54:52] Completely.
Cindy Clark: [00:54:54] Persson. I'd be like, why wouldn't I take advantage of somebody who's already got all this, who can help me and give me that upper edge that I want to deal on this country? And I don't even know the first language. I don't know the cultural expectations. I don't know how they have a hierarchy and how they deal with people. Wouldn't you want to have that person there with you, to guide you and give you capacity to be successful? So we got to get over that. Well, you don't have Canadian experience. We don't have a lot of obviously we only have 12% of businesses or even say 15 that are doing technology. And we have no clue. We don't have any global awareness. We as business owners need to stop and say, there's these young students, there's these young people, these experienced people that have so much knowledge. The next one is now we're in an age issue. And this is the one thing that I've picked up from the technology for AI is that AI will not take your experience. So what you and I have learned is not in all AI?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:56:39] No.
Cindy Clark: [00:56:41] But if I know AI, I know I understand it. I know how to use it. I know what it's going to be doing. I know how the agents are created. I know where to watch in terms of how they integrate each other. And I have my knowledge.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:56:53] Yeah.
Cindy Clark: [00:56:54] I'm not replaceable. But if my knowledge is sitting here and I don't want to touch that AI or that technology, somebody else will. So people who know AI will replace you. Right. Not AI.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:56:30] True.
Cindy Clark: [00:56:30] So the conversation has to be if we have the value. But you've got to take the initiative to make yourself invaluable. And all it is, is taking on that technology, understanding what that technology does. Questioning it. It's no different than I was when I was teaching at SAIT, Strategic Management. I say, what software packages can you use for your accounting? Well, this one here, I said, did you vet to see if they've got their formulas correct and that you're putting the right data in and it's feeding the information that you want it to feed versus just assuming it's doing it. Yeah. Well no. I said, well then you're going to you don't know what you're getting. Don't believe it because someone else designed it. They're human. They made mistakes.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:57:52] Right.
Cindy Clark: [00:57:12] If AI is making mistakes and we think it's great. Are you sure that's right? You know, challenge it a few times, put it in a few different programs and test it out. And it's the same thing with all we do is don't just take it for granted. And then you have an opportunity to be invaluable because you're questioning it, you're challenging it, and you're showing that I know this from experience. This is what's not making sense. And those are the things. Now, I could go on for days in terms of what they could do. That being said I think it's just a basic that we have to take personal ownership. We have to take that initiative to move forward. No one said it was going to be easy. And I'm over 60 and I'm still pushing myself. No less afraid, no less anxious. But there's so many pieces in there that we can reach and communicate and integrate that we can give people the opportunities that they don't even see. It's all there. We just have to step past that anxiety, that uncertainty.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:57:08] Exactly. And what I've loved about this conversation today is it reminds me of a lot of conversations we've had over the years, where it goes from one area to the next, to the next, to the next. And we could just keep on going forever.
Cindy Clark: [00:58:23] Oh, and there's medical terms for this. They don't have the medication yet. No, but there's terms. Yeah.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:58:31] But it shows that it's so multifaceted in so many different aspects.
Cindy Clark: [00:58:37] So that's why nobody gets away from me very fast when they say I'm not in supply chain. Honey, let me tell you. Yeah. And that's because in this whole conversation, it all stems from the supply chain.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:58:48] Exactly. So I really appreciate your time today.
Cindy Clark: [00:58:51] And it's been fun.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:58:52] And exactly. And it's been a really great conversation. So thank you very much.
Cindy Clark: [00:58:55] Thank you. It's been fun.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:59:00] Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. I hope you enjoyed the showcase of the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. If you liked this episode, I would love it if you could give it a rating and review. For more information about this topic, you can go to zebrastoapples.com, or follow Zebras to Apples on the social media platform of your choosing, whether that's Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Bluesky, or LinkedIn. You can support the show on Patreon. Also, check out the show notes below. Please join me again for another episode of Zebras to Apples. Have a wonderful day!