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The characters and stories of the Old Testament form a rich tapestry, revealing both the best and worst of the human condition—and, most importantly, how God relates to us.
Based on the Living Covenant book series, this podcast explores the sometimes messy lives of those who lived under God’s first covenant, asking what these blessedly unsanitised saints can teach us about living out our faith in relationship with a God who promises never to leave us or forsake us.
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Welcome to the Living Covenant Podcast, where we journey through the messy human stories of the Old Testament explore what it means to live in covenant with a promise keeping God. I'm your host, Zanita. Let's dive in.
Hello everyone. I am here today with Francine. Thank you for coming on the Living Covenant Podcast.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Sometimes it's good to get to know the people who wrote the pieces first. Yeah. So you're living at Cooranbong, what does life look for you down there?
So I'm originally from Samoa, but I moved here in Australia, Sydney two years ago to come study at Avondale. So I'm currently at Cooranbong- Mm ... close to the university, and I spend most of my time studying as third year art student. And when I'm not doing that, you'll usually find me either at the gym or literally at home watching movies. My life isn't glamorous, but it's full of unexpected communities, full of learning- Mm ... and full of the kinds of experiences that keep pushing me back to scripture with new questions and new appreciations. So that's basically my, how my life look like for me now.
Awesome. And so is this your first time coming to Australia when you came to study, or had you been here before?
I pretty much, just come for holidays. Okay. Just to spend time with families, mostly in Sydney and Brisbane.
Yeah.
But I've never really, settled here.
Mm-hmm.
So this is my first time settling in Australia, so yeah
Yeah. Now, out of all the characters that you were given for this series, you chose to write about Job, and Job is one of these books, one of these characters, one of these stories that I feel like people all the time, that they um and ah over, 'cause it, it has some really, like, deep topics in there.
Um, what stood out to Job's story for you? Why did you choose to write on Job out of all the characters that were kind of given?
So I chose to write about Job because he's one of the most honest and unsettling voices in the Old Testament. He doesn't really give us tidy and inspirational answers.
Instead, he gives us raw humanity. Job is faithful, but he's also confused, he's grieving, and he's bold enough to bring his hard questions straight to God. So whenever I've gone through seasons of uncertainty or loss, I've always found myself returning to him. And- Mm ... there's something deeply comforting about a biblical character who refuses to pretend that everything is fine, yet he also refuses to walk away from God.
Mm. And I believe that kind of stubborn, honest faith, it feels incredibly relevant today because in a world where suffering is often minimized or over explained, Job gives us permission to wrestle and to stay in a relationship with God even when nothing absolutely makes sense.
Mm.
And, you know, that's, that tension, it- it's between faith and frustration.
It actually, like, drew me in and make me want more to explore his story more deeply. Mm. So that's one of the reasons why I chose to write on Job.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's interesting that you say that 'cause I feel like you've kind of painted this picture of Job who wrestles and questions and things like that.
Yeah. But I think maybe the picture that I've had of Job, and maybe this is just a wrong picture, maybe I haven't, dived into it as deep, but I have this impression of Job that he's just, unbreakable, and he goes through all this stuff- Mm ... but he, doesn't falter in his faith. Which sometimes I've found kind of difficult to live up to.
But I guess what you're describing is a picture of Job who does wrestle with these things, he does- Yeah ... kind of struggle with these experience of losses in his life. Yeah ... yes, I think it's just interesting the different pictures that we each get from- Yes ... from the same story.
But I wanna go into that more in a little bit, but I would love to just unpack the basics of Job's story. Job's story I think is one that most of us probably know. I think it's one of those rare biblical stories that is- Yeah ... kind of widely recognized in religious spheres and outside of religious spheres.
It's kind of seeped into literature and philosophy and language. Yeah. But just to kind of refresh us anyway, can you run us through his story and the things that he loses and the things that he suffers ?
So Job's story, yes, we begin with him as a man of humility and genuine devotion to God.
He's wealthy, he's well-respected, and he's surrounded by a large, loving family. And then almost without no warning, you know, everything collapses. In a series of disasters, Job, loses his livestock, his servants, and all 10 of his children. And it's the kind of grief that's hard to even imagine, like even for me.
Mm-hmm.
To lose all these things that he, that pretty much, he cares about. And just when it seems like things can't get worse, he's struck with a painful, debilitating illness that leaves him sitting in ashes, scraping his skin with broken pottery. And on top of the physical and emotional pain, his friends arrive and insist that he must have done something wrong to deserve this.
And their attempts to explain his suffering only deepen the wound that was already inflicted on him. And what makes Job's story so powerful is that he doesn't pretend. He grieves, he questions, he even argues, but he never walks away from God. And in the end, God meets him not with easy answers, but with the presence, with perspective, and also with restoration.
Mm. So that's what, that is briefly the whole story of Job and how much he has lost and how much he has suffered.
Yeah, just before, um, just before we record this episode, I was reading your article, and I was like- What do we actually know of Job before he loses things? We know that he has this incredible faith. He holds onto God with this relentless grit. But I was like, is there anything in the Bible that shows us, how he got to that point of having that strong faith in God? And I was reading through just, the first seven verses, and then it kind of goes into, everything that he loses.
But it was kind of saying what you were saying. Like, he was blameless and upright. He was a man who feared God and, stayed away from evil. Known to be one of the greatest men in the East. And then it said- Yeah ... that he, um, would hold birthday feasts with his daughters and his, um, sons.
Yeah. And that was about all that we know. That's kind of the only detail. Um, so we don't really have any insight as to how he got to that place. Um-
Yeah ...
and, and I don't... And so that's not really what I wanna ask you because I don't... you can't tell me how Job got to that place. But I would love to- Yeah
Talk about this and hear from you as to, like- How do we get to that place of having a strong faith? Because I feel like that's something that, you know, you've gotta do before suffering hits. Like, you've gotta invest in your relationship with God, and you've gotta seek God to be able to be strong in faith when those seasons come.
So I don't know. I know, you've gone through your own losses, and that's something that you talk about in your article. And I don't know what your experience was like grappling with that, but in your opinion or from your perspective, what do you think is helpful for us to do to get to that point so that when suffering does come our way or loss comes our way, we can be strong in God?
One of the most significant insights, you know, we can learn from Job is that faith is not just discovered in a time of difficulty. Mm-hmm. Instead, it, it is built carefully before a time of difficulty arises. So Job did not instantly become faithful when his entire world crashed down around him.
He had already developed a close relationship with God long before he went through the pain of losing so much. And for each of us to develop, this kind of faith, we generally must do these three things. So these are just, you know, personally from my experience and so these three methods.
So the first one is establish small, consistent habits of trust. So I usually go to the gym, and just like muscles, you know, get- getting that- Work out ... workout, our faith develops through practice and building trust through repeated use. For example, if you were to begin a regular daily prayer habit or read scripture or worship regularly or even attend church and have fellowship with other people in your community, these activities are considered Christian activities, but they are also habits or repetitive actions we build on to develop our understanding of God.
So when we go through a time of trial, we will have something on which we can lean back on And second, be real and honest with God about every situation, and not just during the hard times. And the reason Job had such strong faith in God was that he did not keep his feelings inside. Rather, he was honest about how he felt.
Also, by being honest, sharing his grief with God, and asking God many questions while he was having a difficult time, Job's trust in God was strengthened. It also helped Job realize that whatever he was going through, that God comp- completely understands human life. And third, by remembering who God has been in the past.
So Job, he had no idea what was going on at that moment, but he had faith in God's character. And our faith increases as we repeatedly think about God's goodness in scripture, in our lives or in the lives of others. So when everything else seems unstable, gratitude and remembrance of what God has done for us keep us grounded and going.
So that is the kind of faith and how we can grow our faith when trials come, so we can lean on God and trust in Him
Yeah, so I just wanna like repeat some 'cause I feel like that's really good. Um, building small consistent habits of trust, and it sounds like that's something that you mentioned that you just do when you're at the gym.
Yeah.
Is that right? I think that's awesome. I think it's so great to bring God into your daily mundane kind of life, bring him into those kind of small things. I have another friend who actually is similar to you. He is like, "My worship time with God is when I'm at the gym, that's when I connect with God."
Mm-hmm. And so I think for everyone that's gonna look different. So just find your thing, I suppose. Um, I think something else you said was creating spiritual habits. Mm-hmm.
Uh, community and fellowship, which is super important. And I think that's something that when you, do hit a season of struggle or loss, those people- Mm-hmm ... can be such anchors and rocks for you. And that's not really something that we see in the story of Job. But I know in my experience- ... that has been something that has like really helped me.
Yeah. Um, being real and honest with God, which I wanna come back to that in a second 'cause I think that's interesting, and then gratitude and remembering what God has done. I feel like they're some really good, pieces of advice.
Yeah. Thank you.
Um, now I wanna go back to that, I guess this idea of Job being, someone who wrestled with God because I think Job is one of those individuals who some people find difficult to read about- Mm-hmm
because it doesn't line up with their experience. I feel like some people when they experience losses, they really struggle to trust in God. They, they question him even though they don't wanna question him. Or they go through these experiences of loss and they have this expectation that they'll, you know, be strong in the faith and be able to hold onto God.
Mm-hmm. But they just find that kind of unattainable because the struggle overwhelms them a little bit. And then I feel like some people get kind of confused because then we see, the Psalms, and we see David cursing God. We see him getting angry, and we kind of receive different advice when it comes to, how we interact with God in those moments.
But I think it also makes me question, what is, what is the story of Job for? - Mm-hmm ... like, is that story given to us as an example of how to suffer well, or is that story given to us for another reason? Is it given to us to show us something about God? What are we trying to get from this story is kind of, I guess, the question I'm asking.
I think, I think it's important to realize that the Bible gives a variety of responses when it comes to suffering. Mm. So yes, Job went to worship God, David to lament before God, Jeremiah to weep before God, and Jesus cried out in anguish. And these four different responses are not contradictions, but instead it shows us that there is no one right way to respond to loss.
And Job demonstrates that worshiping God can be a faithful reaction to suffering. David demonstrates that lamenting to God can be a faithful reaction to suffering. Mm. Jesus demonstrates that crying out to God can be a faithful reaction to suffering. And so these examples are not because they are supposed to be our exact e- expressions of faith, but- Mm
rather it gives us insights of how one may have an honest relationship with God while experiencing pain. So they continue to turn to God despite a lack of understanding. And this is what it means to experience pain well. It is subtle, and it is not instant. It is being in a relationship with God throughout the chaos.
And the Bible also affirms this. In 1 Peter 3:17, Peter says that, "If we suffer, it is better to suffer for doing good than for doing evil." And therefore, suffering does not always mean you did something wrong. At times, you know, suffering can simply be part of our journey with God and demonstrate our faithfulness to His will.
And so the different way God reacts to us are meant to assure us of our right to be human, while at the same time we continue to have trust in Him throughout the whole experience. So yes- Mm ... it, it is, um, so that is, um, what it looks like to suffer well- Mm ... and how we can use these biblical figures as examples that there is no one right way to respond to loss and suffering.
That's so good. Yeah. I think that's, um, I don't know, such a relieving response. Whether you're weeping, whether you're worshiping, whether you're in anguish, what's important is that you continue to turn to God- Yeah
that you don't walk away from Him. Um-
Mm.
Yeah, that's so good. Talk to us about your own experience with loss. I know that's something that you touch on in the book. What has been your experience with trusting God through your own losses?
I have experienced times of grief in my life. For example, there have been parts of my life that didn't go how I had envisioned them to go, and I have fought against or wrestled with God far more than, you know, resembled Job's peaceful proclamations of faith. And there were, there have been times where I prayed to God, you know, my prayer sounded like frustration rather than any type of faith.
And in some instances, God just simply felt quiet, and this is why I draw so much encouragement from the story of Job because Job asked questions. He was very honest about his dissent or even complaining and broke down, but yet he was never chastised by God for being honest. And Job gives me the understanding that there is nothing wrong with struggling with God, as it is part of having faith.
And having faith does not mean that you are not being honest with God about the things in your life that are not okay, but you are simply having faith by bringing to God the things in your life that are not okay. And so the most difficult thing I have experienced is, it was when my grandmother passed away in 2022.
My grandmother was such a foundation in my life, and she prayed regularly for my wellbeing, even assisted in raising me and, this is evidence to me as, because this was a solid, quiet faith in God. And losing my grandma it left a huge void in my heart, and I felt weak and like I did not represent Job or even had that much, faith like him.
But his experience taught me that God wants to bring my honest self to him, and that he will use my honesty as I trust him- Mm-hmm ... even when I don't always understand what he is doing for me. So, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I like how you said, people often think of faith as like having no doubt.
But, um- Mm-hmm ... you, you were talking about before how having faith doesn't mean that you don't have questions. That's not a lack of faith to have questions for God. You mentioned that you had questions that you asked God. Did you find that He answered those questions? Or, how did you experience God's mercy or God's love through your losses? Was that something you experienced in the moment? Was that something you experienced, in hindsight?
Or talk to us about that.
So during that time, I was in Australia during the New Years. And right, on the first day, January 1st, that was, the biggest, saddest moments of my life. And so she was in Samoa, and we left her, the week before New Years. And so I had that, you know...
She was very sick, and it was really hard to, to leave her in that moment where she's sick and, you know, just coming to Australia and spending the holidays with the family here. And so- Mm ... after, so before I left her, she did not really want us to leave 'cause, she wanted us to be there with her throughout, you know, the time that she was still alive.
But we actually, came to Sydney and had Christmas and even New Years. And so when we got the call, I instantly, was really upset, and I was blaming God for the life that He that He gave- That He gave ... but now He is taking away. And so in that moment, I feel like I had no faith in God.
It was really hard, especially, with the kind of loss that... the person who was always there for you in your moments, in your upbringing most of the time. So I guess, I never really had the type of faith that Job had, and I kind of was inspired by his faith that I still keep this story as a part of me so that I can continue to remember that God is faithful and
God wants our honesty and how we feel so that He could be able to understand what He can do for us and how far that, and how far His plans has for us. So His plans are bigger than mines. So yeah.
So what I guess I'm hearing is that when you lost your grandmother, the story of Job kind of came to your mind, but what kind of stood out was the faithfulness of God in that.
Yeah, it was the faithfulness.
Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I think it's awesome how sometimes God will just bring such random stories from the Bible to... Well, Job isn't a random story. It's probably- ... one of the most well-known stories in the Bible- ... but I think it's awesome that, God really uses the stories of the Bible to encourage us in seasons where, um-
Yeah
yeah. Things have, things have gone south. Now you actually started in your article by saying that Job's trials reveal something to us about the faithfulness of God, and I feel like a lot of people read Job's story and they get caught up in the idea why suffering happens to bad people and how Job responds to loss.
Can you talk to us about what you learned about the character of God through reading Job's story?
I think the Bible it has taught me that God is far more loving and supportive than we think. God does not try to push away Job's anger or even his confusion, nor do they stop the conversations with him.
Instead, they keep on talking to Job because God will listen to Job and consider him, so he does not mind being truthful to him. And another thing to know about God is that he cares more about our honesty than he does about perfect or polished words that people may say to him. Mm. Job spoke many raw things, but still God will say Job spoke right, which shows that what he wants most from us are real hearts instead of perfected words.
And finally, God's presence is far more important than his explanations to us. When God speaks with Job, he does not give him a response of why, but instead gave him God. And this is a wonderful thought, as we often wonder why God is doing the things he is doing, but he wants to remind us that he can be trusted and loved even when we don't know why.
He adds even more value to that love. So yes, I learned a lot about God's character through reading Job's story, that is.
Hmm. Yeah, I think throughout this season we've looked at a lot of individuals in the Old Testament. Um, like the Old Testament, it just does this, it kinda goes out of its way to avoid giving you, flawless heroes.
It's full of people who lie, who deceive, who disobey, who run who committed all three. The list goes on. It's just full of examples of moral failures and, and all sorts of Mm-hmm ... despicable acts. And yet we still see this God that, works through these people and stays faithful to these people.
And I think in those stories you really walk away in awe, not because of, people's turnarounds or, because they changed their ways and then are faithful to God, but because you see God keep His promise to these, broken- ... wretched, sinful people, and He just never gives up on them.
But Job, I guess, feels a little bit different because Job seems, unusually upright. Even though he questions- Mm-hmm ... even though, he stays faithful, it's like all the people around him are telling him to do otherwise. He hasn't just, lost, a son or lost his job. He's lost everything.
Everything, yeah. Um, and, and I think that's something that I've never seen that happen to anyone in my life. I've never seen- ... someone lose everything, but, Job has. And I think that's why some people question, "Did this actually happen?"
But where do we see this idea of a God who keeps His covenant in Job's story?
So the story of Job, it exemplifies how to have a covenantal relationship with God.
The covenant is not only about receiving a blessing from God, but also about how- it's also about having a relationship with him, which includes loyalty and trust in God even when life does not seem to be going as planned. And Job demonstrates this by not walking away from the relationship even though he was going through a confused and painful time.
He has questioned God, wrestled with him, and lament to him, yet he continues to communicate with God. And this is known as covenantal language, and there is a consistent pattern of God listening to and continuing the relationship with his people through prayer and supplication throughout the Bible.
And Job also shows us the faithfulness of God to his side of the covenant even when we are not living up to our end of it. And God both defends Job and speaks to him, restores him, and ultimately shows that he has never abandoned Job as much as he will never abandon us. Mm-hmm.
We haven't really touched on this in this episode, but behind the scenes there's also a war going on Can you fill us in on a little bit of that? Because I think we also see God's faithfulness in that as well.
During his time of loss or during the time he was suffering, the things that values to him the most, he kept losing them. And so this was a war between God and Job. First he loses his family and then he started losing his livestock, his riches, his wealth.
And then all of a sudden his friends coming in blamed him and saying that he, he must have done something to deserve this. And even his wife started cursing him. And so at this time during Job's loss, he wrestled with God. He was very honest about his feelings and it came to the point where instead of blaming him, he started asking God, questioning him and his plans.
And this kind of blameless characteristic, it's very hard to actually continue on. Mm-hmm. Because we always, like I think that's, m- more human thing. We always blame God for the things that are not going well in our lives. And so- Yeah
we have this spiritual warfare with him. And instead of having faith, we end up doubting the plans that he has in store for us in the future. Mm. And so I think this story of Job, it tells us that God never abandons us even if we're having a spiritual warfare with him, even if the losses or the experiences or the trials, the challenges that comes our ways, the obstacles, these things will never stop God from looking up to us, even welcoming us with his open arms and continue to love us in ways that we do not deserve it as well.
Hmm. Yeah. I think it goes back to what you were saying before, he just wants us to keep coming to him. Whatever that looks like. He just wants us to keep on coming back to his feet. Um for anyone who's listening to this and who is really struggling at the moment,
do you have any, like, words of wisdom or encouragement? Are there, other things aside from prayer that people can be doing to kind of ride that season out?
Yes. There's so much takeaways or even lessons that we can learn from this story, and one of the most important lessons that I learned from the story of Job is that God can be depended upon despite the fact that life may not always make sense.
Even though Job was never informed of the reasons behind his troubles, he did receive a much greater gift, and that was God's presence, which had the most dramatic impact on his life. I also discovered that faith doesn't mean we have perfect feelings about God. Job showed this through his praise, questioning, crying out, and pleading with God.
And in all of this, Job felt that God was with him. I also learned that genuine faith is messy and imperfect. It is sincere. It is a relationship, and it continues to reach out to God when our hearts ache. And finally, Job taught me that God is much more patient, He is much more kinder, and He is loyal than we usually think of Him.
He listens to Job. He even communicates with him, and He even defends him, and this ultimately made Job whole again. And what we can, learn from Job's story, personally for me, it taught me that God is available in our times of suffering. He has always and will be there for us. And this is- Yeah ... the truth I will always hold in my heart.
While we may not always understand God's ways now, we can rest assured that He is preparing something far more greater than we can imagine. So, yes.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's comforting to know that it's okay if the journey looks messy. It's okay if your journey doesn't look like Job's or doesn't look like David's.
Yeah, I feel like the story of Job really, the more we dive deep into it, the more we understand the deep truths or the things that, that we haven't discovered yet about God and how human life, the human experience is different from, an actual relationship with God.
Mm. So, yes.
Yeah. Awesome. All right. Well, I have loved digging into this story with you, Francine. Thank you so much for coming on. It's a deep topic, so, um, thank you for- ... going through it with us.
I really appreciate
Thank you.