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Bill and Megan speak with Sandra Just about the current state of education and high conflict within the education system, given the many issues faced by everyone involved in the system.
Hosted by Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Megan Hunter, MBA, It’s All Your Fault! High Conflict People explores the five types of people who can ruin your life—people with high conflict personalities and how they weave themselves into our lives in romance, at work, next door, at school, places of worship, and just about everywhere, causing chaos, exhaustion, and dread for everyone else.
They are the most difficult of difficult people — some would say they’re toxic. Without them, tv shows, movies, and the news would be boring, but who wants to live that way in your own life!
Have you ever wanted to know what drives them to act this way?
In the It’s All Your Fault podcast, we’ll take you behind the scenes to understand what’s happening in the brain and illuminates why we pick HCPs as life partners, why we hire them, and how we can handle interactions and relationships with them. We break down everything you ever wanted to know about people with the 5 high conflict personality types: narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, antisocial/sociopath, and paranoid.
And we’ll give you tips on how to spot them and how to deal with them.
Megan Hunter:
Welcome to It's All Your Fault on True Story FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my cohost Bill Eddy.
Bill Eddy:
Hi everybody.
Megan Hunter:
We're the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. In this episode, we are joined by our very special guest and colleague Sandra Just to talk about the current state of conflict in the education atmosphere. As we've heard many put it lately, the rubble that's being left in the wake of high conflict destruction. Now, we have a couple of notes first. If you have a question about a high conflict situation or a person, send them to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website at highconflictinstitute.com/podcast, where you'll also find the show notes and links. And, please give us a rate or review and tell your friends, colleagues or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We'd be very grateful.
Now, let's talk about high conflict situations in education. Today, we're joined our very special guest, Sandra Just, who's based in Colorado. She has a wealth of experience in the education field. She's the founder of Just Look Within Coaching and Consulting, where she provides executive leadership coaching and she's the very first graduate of our brand new certification course, Conflict Influencer Certification. Sandra has 32 years of public education experience, giving her a lot of perspective on just about every aspect of supporting the needs of schools, whether it be teachers, administrators, parents or even school boards. She's been a teacher, an administrator. She's had supervisory roles with principals, human resources and lots of other roles. After retiring in 2020, she's been consulting with school districts across the country and is currently director of HR at a school in Colorado.
So, Sandra, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience as a seasoned... And, I know I shouldn't say that because we're all pretty seasoned at this point. But, seasoned educator, which basically means you have a lot of experience and a lot of information to share. Please tell us now something about you that I haven't already said that you think our listeners might like to know.
Sandra Just:
Wow. That's always an interesting question, Megan. I think I would just add to that that on top of being an educator, have lived some of these very same challenges with my own children. The mom of a special needs student with Down syndrome who sadly has passed, but have lived many challenges with him, and lovely young daughter who is 30, living in the Bay Area who didn't always find education that much fun even though her mom was an educator.
Megan Hunter:
Wow. Very interesting. I did not know that about your son and I'm really sad to hear that. So, thank you for sharing that with us and it gives it even more depth. So, let's just move right into the questions and discussion. You know, we've been, as you know more than probably any of us in the education realm, throughout this pandemic which is now at a little over two years... You know, the fight's been on in the education world. We hear about it on the news. We see it on social media. And, especially in education and most especially in public education, it's always been at the crossroads of many social and cultural changes, from back in the day, busing students across town to benchmark academic standards for school funding, to which books are approved for teaching classes and a lot of things like that.
And then, with COVID, the conflict flame sort of burning even brighter as parents and schools and even unions fought over and continue fighting over masks, vaccinations, virtual classes, school shutdowns, reopenings, and even other issues like gender issues and parents' rights over the last few years. So, that's what we're going to talk about today.
And, Bill, I know you wanted to just start right off about how the teachers are coping.
Bill Eddy:
Yeah. So, tell us how teachers are coping with all of this. What helps keep them going?
Sandra Just:
I think it's been definitely some challenging times, right? Megan, you... You noted a few of the many layers that are a part of everyday world for teachers. You know, when the pandemic first started and we all really didn't know what we were doing as we moved to online education, there seemed to be this swell of support for educators. Right? People were so excited that their students could keep learning and teachers were in this new space and there just... There just seemed to be such good feeling. And, I think people held hope that that wave might keep going and that really hasn't been the case.
As we've returned to in-person, I think there was joy at seeing people again, the human connection. But, I don't know that we really figured out how to transition in well. I think we stepped back in and just thought life would go back to normal and life wasn't normal. We had faced a multitude of issues. You know, watched so much violence around our nation, and people wanted to be well but we didn't really make a plan to be well and move forward in a way.
And so, I think really what we see now are very exhausted individuals who are limping to the finish line of a school year. And, while I think we all want to believe time in the summer will be beautiful... I think time is a beautiful gift but I think we have some things to resolve about how we keep people whole and healthy so that we can support students before we move into next year.
Bill Eddy:
There's a lot, a lot there. Back to normal, which hasn't completely ever happened yet.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. How are teachers responding and reacting to this? Is there a lot of attrition that you're seeing?
Sandra Just:
There certainly is some. Right? Many folks I think have at least reflected, right? On is this their continued pathway. I think this is a calling for so many people that, while tired and exploring and reflecting, they still want to continue. They want to find the answers. They want to support our students. But, there is... There is certainly some people that are just saying, "It's enough. I have to look in another way. I have to look in another place." And, top that with we're not necessarily growing and creating as many teachers as we need in this nation right now. There will certainly be challenges with filling the roles to support on top of finding systems that support the wholeness of everyone.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. You know, we've been hearing some questions and I guess just stories from teachers who are saying that or reporting that they're being threatened physically. Where parents used to kind of stop themselves with maybe some cursing or yelling, now they're actually really threatening them with physical altercations or physical threats of harm and maybe even going as far as acting that out. Do you hear anything about that?
Sandra Just:
We certainly hear cases of that. Right? I would say we definitely hear more of the verbal spewing, maybe, for lack of a better word, when people are very frustrated. Again, I think our parents are in a state as well. Right? Everyone wanted the world to be normal and my students go back to school and there's events and things look great and they're going to do amazing work. And, we've all struggled with going back into that flow. Parents have struggled going back into work and integrating back and forth. And, I think all of that plus again just all that's going on in the nation and the world have people in a... In a state where it's very difficult to articulate all they're feeling, and sadly, it comes out in this direction in spaces where there is some, dare I say, a space of safety. Right? There is some comfort in feeling like school is a place you can belong and should belong and I think it comes out there and can create some really difficult, uncomfortable scenarios for people to have to work through and be able to move forward.
Bill Eddy:
Yeah. So, this kind of leads into the question of parents' relationship with teachers and especially around child discipline. So, what I remember when I went to school, my parents always agreed with the teachers. Even if they were wrong, I had to follow what the teacher said. I had to do what they told me to do. Nowadays, you get some children can do no wrong and their parents will get into conflicts with the teacher over discipline and the child doesn't really learn necessarily a good lesson from that.
But, I'm not clear how much of a problem this is. So, is this...? Is this a big problem or is this like one parent out of a class of 30 that has a problem like this? What are you seeing and hearing?
Sandra Just:
I think it is... It is a challenge spot, right? I wouldn't say that's necessarily the norm. Right? I do think that most parents are trying to figure out that balance with schools. They want it to be a place of connection. But, there are definitely situations out there where it can be a real challenge in finding that balance and building that relationship and building trust so that there can be a real plan to support the student to move forward.
You know, I appreciate, Bill, what you said. My parents very much the same way. I think it probably scared me enough. I didn't really get in trouble because I knew if I got in trouble, that would be problematic. Right? Someone would tell my parents.
Bill Eddy:
Right.
Sandra Just:
I just didn't want that. There were probably times where that wasn't the best dynamic, either. Right? That there were situations that could have used conversation and had better resolutions, but that was how we were raised. That was how it was handled. In an ideal space, we get to a space where everyone has their voice but there's a respect and an understanding of each other so that we can model and talk through disagreements. You know, the ultimate hope of any when we use the word discipline is correct what's not going right for the future. And, how do we get to that balance spot I think is where we're feeling challenged. We sometimes land on one side. We land on the other side. And, how do we build that relationship so that we all feel safe and healthy and most importantly, that the student is seeing a model of how to resolve things and learn and grow themself?
Bill Eddy:
Right. Right. Since we teach conflict resolution, we really want the next generation to be better than ever at this and some of today's world isn't teaching the better ways. But, hopefully the teachers are and most of the parents.
Sandra Just:
I think everyone, right? We always say everyone wants the best for their child. Every teacher came into this because they want the best for children. Sometimes we model that in different ways or we articulate that in different ways and we have to find that spot of communication, and I think in the land of Zoom, while we've come out of it, I think we have lost some of those personal connections. Right? We had a distaste for Zoom in the beginning, thinking, "How in the world could we ever communicate like this?." And now... And, I even find myself doing this. Oh, I'll just set up a Zoom meeting. It'd be far quicker than running over and talking to somebody. And then, I have to pause and say we have lost that human connection of looking each other in the eye, of having the conversation, of letting the other person really see what we're feeling. That is just something that we have to have when we're in the human business.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. That's so true and in fact our team at HCI just held our first ever in-person team retreat and we've been working remotely for our entire existence, even though Bill and I would get together sometimes and we'd see each other on the road once in a while. We'd do some co-training. We typically didn't see most of the people that support all of our work at HCI. So, we held this meeting and I think the biggest takeaway I had from it was that dimension, the in-person dimension, after being professionals on Zoom. You know, we got that down pat. But, there's just something different when you both observe or all observe something together. You know, somebody taking a dive in the ocean or whatever it is. Now, you have something other than just what you're seeing on the screen in front of you. You've observed something and you can have a conversation about it and you just learn so much more and you have that connection.
And, connection is really one of the key fundamental principles we teach here at HCI, is people need to feel connected. So, I think in this era of Zoom, while it's been really wonderful in so many ways and been kind of a godsend, we still really need the in-person connection. Bill, would you agree?
Bill Eddy:
Absolutely.
Megan Hunter:
You're the guy that came up with this, with the C, the C in your cars note that is connecting.
Bill Eddy:
Absolutely.
Megan Hunter:
And, I used to really focus a lot more on calming and it really over time occurred to me that it's... You connect with the person to calm the person.
Bill Eddy:
And, that's true with everybody, but especially high conflict people, and that's... So, that's what we teach. We teach parents so they can do that with each other and I think more and more that teachers and other professionals learn this the more they can calm people down pretty quickly. We find within about 30 seconds a good EAR statement with empathy, attention and respect can really calm somebody down and now you can get into problem solving and it's about the issue, not about that you're a hateful, evil person. We want to get past that.
Megan Hunter:
And... And so, that EAR statement essentially is the connecting mode. Right? You use an EAR statement to connect with someone instead of arguing with them and therefore you start to build a team together against whatever the issue is or the problem, whether it's real or perceived, and now we're working together on resolving this instead of fighting each other.
Bill Eddy:
Exactly. Exactly. And, I think, you know, with teachers that so much is the role modeling and so this is something I know Sandra, you... You not only know about but end up supporting principals and teaching teachers, et cetera.
Sandra Just:
It's critical and I think part of our brain and being knows that. Right? We know that calming is the right thing. I think there sometimes are just those challenges that people are feeling of putting all that internal feeling they're having aside to get to a greater outcome. And, that's... That's where I think the tools, especially from the influencer course, were really helpful reminders that it's very easy just to get caught up in our own emotion and need, and that feels fabulous for two seconds. But, it doesn't get us resolution and when we don't have some resolution or support for the other person, we really don't end feeling good.
Bill Eddy:
And, just a quick add-on here. You've emphasized the word emotions and I think that's so much part of what we see, is trying to calm emotions and that in real life, seeing people in person, the role model of parents and teachers, et cetera is that emotions are contagious. Positive emotions are contagious. Negative emotions. And, one of my concerns is with Zoom and isolation, that there's so much that people saw on their screens of unmanaged emotions that that became contagious and hopefully as kids settle back into school, the realities of real life and calming each other's emotions will kick in and hopefully six months or a year from now, we'll see things be calmer, which I guess heads into another question for Megan.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. One of the biggest topics we hear about is bullying. I think schools are not immune from that and from our understanding, bullying in schools was decreasing until COVID. But, now with children back in the classrooms, bullying seems to have picked up. So, I guess, Sandra, the big question is, what are you seeing and hearing and is that accurate? And, if so, how should bullying be handled in schools? What can parents do? What can teachers do? Administrators do?
Sandra Just:
I think that's a great question and I will say my most recent experiences have been more adult focused than students, so I don't... I don't maybe have the most recent pulse on this. But, I can say we continue to see and hear of course about students having issues with each other. I do think there is still a very strong line of this behavior happening through social media. That has continued on throughout COVID and that's where there were some bumps. Students began to have those pressures with each other via social media. Those continue.
I think, again, it is having a pulse on what is going on with the student, being able to provide that support, hear the story. If they're telling a parent, having the parent share that communication is so critical to finding resolution. If a student is enduring whatever inappropriate behavior from another person, sadly we see that continue because adults don't always know and that just creates so much anguish and pain for a student and it really creates anguish and pain for a parent when that finally comes to them. And so, that's where I think we see the greater escalation because there's frustration. Nobody wants to see their child be hurt or in pain. Right? And, ultimately, no school leader wants to see a child in that place.
So, I wish there was this easy fix. I think the first step is communication. Right? Problem solving, having systems to report. Those kind of structures are just critical and then really that follow-up and after learning by all parties. Right? We want this again to be a learning experience by a student who maybe bullied or behaved inappropriately toward another student. How do we stop, make sure people are safe and then help teach so that we can find out what's creating the root of that issue with the other student to behave in such a way?
And so, I think it has to come from both sides, making sure the student who is enduring any pain is taken care of first and then ensuring there's some teaching and growing on the other part if we really want to stop this behavior.
Bill Eddy:
So, it sounds like a learning experience rather than deciding who's to blame.
Sandra Just:
The reality is pieces of both, right, end up happening. There often are some consequences. Right? Dependent on all of the facts of the scenario. But then, I do think we have to move into that learning phase as well because it's possible without that teaching, nothing changes. Right? Consequences don't always cause everyone to change. And so, it's consequence perhaps and teaching, but we have to do the and teaching part.
Bill Eddy:
Excellent. That's in many ways what we teach because we do teach about setting limits and consequences, but the focus is on the future and learning skills, especially for kids, is the way to go.
Megan Hunter:
You know, I was curious about the role of parents in the topic of school bullying and it came to my mind because just recently here in 2022, we've had a shooting in Buffalo, New York by a young man who I believe is still a teenager and they subsequently found his journal entries or a diary and there was something that really struck with me and I've saved it and it's, quote, "Promise me if you have a child you will be there and you will be close. Be a friend to your child and make sure they know that you will always help them. Talk about their problems and ways to solve it and never make them feel bad for coming to you."
It just really kind of pierced my heart to think that this child was in some pain. I wonder if... You know, what role parents can have in school bullying. And, I don't know if this child was bullied or if he wasn't, but it did strike me. So, we've talked about kind of the student's role and the school's role. What if a parent...? You know, what role do they have? And, have you seen something, like a positive impact where parents have been involved and understand this and have been a sounding board for their kids and have helped them focus on the future?
Sandra Just:
Yeah. I mean, I think parents are critical. Right? We as educators spend some daytime hours with students. Right? And, we... You know, that's a big portion of the day. But, parents are home with them all night, weekends. They've grown them. They've raised them. They're with them on vacations. They are the most critical step in that communicator. Right? And, we... I will say this as a parent. I think we all want to... We want our students to come to us. We want our children to come and put everything down. But, I know. I've been in places as a parent where I'm sure my attitude on certain days wasn't as receptive as it could have been. Right? It could have turned my child away, so I'm not going to tell you anything today. You seem... You seem like you're in a mood.
We've all been in that space but if we can create that with our children, then there is always a safe place to land and as educators, we hold that role too. You know, we have to create that bond to be that safe place and that additional outlet so that we're teaming together. If we work as partners with the student, the sky is the limit. If we don't, we can create roadblocks we didn't mean to create by simply our poor communications, resolving in a way that didn't meet everybody's needs. You name it. And so, I just think parents are so, so important and as parents, again, we find it much easier to be involved with our younger children than our older children.
Bill Eddy:
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Just:
And, my personal finding is they need us as much or more when they're older. They're dealing with a lot and they don't know how to process it, and if we don't make that space between educators and parents, right? Other activities students are involved in, those adults, that's a really difficult place to be if you've got nowhere to turn to process.
Bill Eddy:
That's a really good point. We often forget that the older kids really need that connection and contact and supervision, et cetera.
So, moving on to adults, school board meetings nowadays have been getting a lot of attention, probably for the wrong reasons. That seems to be a forum for public conflict and extreme behavior. What mechanisms have school boards adopted to help manage these meetings with disruptive outbursts, profanity, slurs, et cetera?
Sandra Just:
It seems like every forum we have anymore is a possible place, right? For disruption [inaudible 00:27:19].
Bill Eddy:
It reminds me of kindergarten.
Sandra Just:
I think... You know, I go back to this space. Many, many school board meetings have been held by Zoom in an effort to not have large groups come together. I think we're transitioning more to... You know, more and more to in person. But again, we've had that Zoom layer where we have our frustration of the issue, perhaps frustration of technology for those who don't love all the technological spaces, and the very system of school board meetings often is there is public comment but you need to sign up. You have a very short period of time. You're cut off. It works for the flow of the meeting, right? It makes complete sense when you think of a meeting and all that the school board has to do. I can see probably from someone who wants to speak, that can feel a little challenging when they feel like their voice is being cut.
And so, I don't know that there is an easy space to this but I think it is letting people know the limits ahead of time, ensuring that transparency so there is not a shock or surprise. Again, reminding people of the structures. I think it's a lot of those reminders that we can sometimes feel like almost a little degrading because we repeat them and we think we shouldn't or don't need to repeat them to adults. And yet, I think they're helpful because we know what to expect in a meeting.
And so, I think in a forum like that, that is really necessary and important, and sometimes, to be honest, we just have to remind each other. You know, if you're speaking, please have your camera on. We need to see you. We need to be able to see your emotion and your feeling. So, I think that's another reminder. And then, you know, while we may not like it, those reminders to silence while people are talking if it feels like there's a lot of background noise. You know, we've done it in public before. But, we have to have some of those same pleasantries so voices can be heard in Zoom.
Bill Eddy:
Interesting that you've emphasized structure because that's one of the things we emphasize, especially in high conflict situations. If people don't have the internal structure, then we need to provide the external structure.
I'd like to just real briefly read something I read in this morning's paper. I'm in San Diego and this is the San Diego Union. It's the front page and it was talking about board meetings and one thing it mentions was a court case 30 years ago, White versus the City of Norwalk. And, it says in here... It talks about how at public meetings, speakers don't have an unfettered right to say whatever they want whenever they want to because it can become a disruption. If speech is irrelevant, repetitious, lengthy, speaking out of turn, refusing to leave the podium, hateful, obscene gestures, thoughts of harm, those are all considered disruptions. And, generally what they're saying is that these kinds of meetings are allowed to have more limitations than necessarily standing on the corner of a park saying whatever you want to say, that these have a purpose and so free speech does have some limitations on it, just like you can't yell fire in a theater.
So, I just wanted to kind of give my pep talk for... That I think school boards really do deserve the right to have structure and I'm glad to hear they're finding ways to do that.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah, and be respectful to each other and get all that structure in there.
Bill Eddy:
So, are teachers and administrators getting more training in conflict resolution these days?
Sandra Just:
I think that's still kind of a mixed bag. You know, as we moved into the pandemic, we certainly put, in education, a far greater emphasis on social and emotional learning. Right? Providing those opportunities via Zoom. Those priorities I've seen have continued as we've returned in person, and so, I think that is extremely positive. Right? That we're putting in place curriculums for students and that expression.
I think it depends from district to district whether all of that training has floated up to a teacher and/or those supports. And, I think definitely... You know, educators are ones who love to learn. Right? We're continuing to learn. I think it would be an amazing tool to have in the toolkit as we just face the many challenges we're having right now. It's another... It's another added layer of protection and connection and I would hope to say resolution as well.
Megan Hunter:
We need to help teachers and administrators learn how to deal with all kinds of conflict now. And, yeah. I think even more than in the past because there's been so much poor role modeling on social media or in movies and TV and maybe they didn't get quite the role modeling that they should have, so I think it'd be great to support them in ways, especially as people become potentially more hostile or aggressive in their dealings with teachers and administrators. So, we just want to give a big shoutout to anyone in the education field. We know you guys have really, really had a tough couple of years here and I heard from a few teacher friends who have talked about the exhaustion of teaching on Zoom and trying to motivate students and while educating them and making sure they're really getting everything done and getting the message through to them that they're trying to do.
So, you know, big mad props to all of you and we wish you a lot of... A lot of encouragement and for the coming school year and I think maybe next year will be even better than this year.
Bill Eddy:
They've got a lot of support from us, of course. I feel like we should be banging pots and pans for teachers, so really, best wishes with all of that.
Megan Hunter:
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And, Sandra, thank you so much for joining us today. It was really great to hear your input and tackling some tough subjects.
You'll find the link to Sandra's website in the show notes along with a link to the conflict influencer course and to... We have an audio of high conflict people in education. We'll put that in there as well. And, it's Bill talking about how to handle some high conflict situations in that field. And then, we'll put a few links to our books like Biff and Calming Upset People With EAR and It's All Your Fault in the show notes.
In next week's episode, we are going to go into a topic that I find really interesting, and whether it's a good idea to tell the judge, the HR manager, the principal, the mediator or just about anyone that the other person you're in a dispute with is high conflict or that they actually do have a diagnosis or you think that they do. So, we get asked this question so many times and so we think it's a good time to talk about it. It's a big issue and we'll do our best to tackle it.
So, in the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to highconflictinstitute.com/podcast and we'd love it if you'd tell your friends about us and really be grateful if you'd leave us a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until next week, have a great one and keep learning about high conflict behavior and situations so you can manage it, influence it and have a peaceful life.
It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Zib Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts at truestory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.