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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome back to Long Game Podcast. I am joined today by Kirsty from the Book Hashera on Instagram. Kirsty is big into her MM romance, and in particular, she's into the Game Changer series. So we thought it would be great to have her on and give her some thoughts on Common Goal, which is the book that we're gonna be looking at today. Obviously, we've made our way through the first three books.
In general, we were really enjoying those and we have moved on to a more controversial entry, I would say. Is that fair?
Kirsty (00:36)
Yeah, I would say it's controversial for sure.
Declan (00:41)
Well we're gonna have a quick run through, discuss sort of the characters and the plot and how we felt things were written in the book and some of the themes as well that it goes into because it is unique within the series. It has unique themes. So I am interested to get into it. just a quick shout out first for our Patreon as well, if you guys haven't joined, it's the Long Game Patreon. it should be in a link in the description.
so if you're free to subscribe to that then make sure you do. But Kirsty, what is your sort of general thoughts on Common Goal as in the book itself, just
Kirsty (01:21)
I like it. I do like it. To be fair, it's quite difficult for me to say that I dislike any of the Game Changers series books. I do feel it's a bit underrated. And I don't know, maybe it's just because I'm getting older, but I do appreciate a lot more older MCs now when I read books. I think when it comes to a lot of romance books, we are given characters who were in their like early 20s, not even that, they like what, 2021?
and they
Declan (01:51)
Yeah.
Kirsty (01:51)
fall in love and they have it all figured out straight away. And the one thing I like about this book is it's a man in his forties, going through a divorce, coming to the end of his sports career, and he is figuring it out in his forties. And I think it's just a nice change to, and probably means a lot to a lot of people who are older and still don't know if they've got things figured out. And it's why I like this book so much.
Declan (02:19)
That's definitely one of my favourite parts of the book is the fact that Daws go into this idea of Eric's retirement. I think that's definitely the more interesting element of the story. I also do like Kyle's sort of how he tries to get over Kip. I think it's a big plot point. It's very good about the book. But in general, I felt the book was it's I think it had pacing issues. I think the first half of this book is brilliant.
But then as you get into the second half, we're sort of like drifting a little bit. And I feel like there are more efficient ways to wrap up the character stories and the arcs and stuff. So for me it was like, This is fine, but when I'm comparing it to everything else that I've come across so far, I'm kinda not enjoying it as much, if that makes sense.
Kirsty (03:08)
Yeah, of course, that's understandable. think it's hard. It's so hard, isn't it, to compare all the books when you're up against Heated Rivalry, The Long Game, and
Declan (03:16)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty (03:16)
my favourite is Role Model. So, you know, when you're up against those three, it's quite hard to
Declan (03:20)
My favorite as well.
Kirsty (03:23)
like look at the other books.
Declan (03:26)
Yeah, I think there is a difference in this one. but we'll get into it properly so we will how do you feel like it sort of measures up to the other books? Because this, like you just said, like whenever you're trying to put them together and obviously they're part of the same series, so inevitably people are going to compare them. Where do you think it falls for you? Like, how does it measure up to the others?
Kirsty (03:54)
So for me, if I were to rank them, it's on par with Tough Guy for me. So it's not
Declan (04:00)
Mm.
Kirsty (04:00)
like neither of them are my least favourite books, but they're not my favourite books. As I mentioned, Role Model is like the best book for me in that series. So, yeah.
Declan (04:12)
Yeah. I found it kind of down there with Game Changer. I think they kinda
Kirsty (04:19)
Yeah.
Declan (04:21)
belong together in the same category. I would put Tough Guy above the two of them. I
Kirsty (04:25)
Okay.
Declan (04:25)
think I'd prefer the themes in Tough Guy and I think it's the first real effort that she puts into looking at a really particular theme, especially around mental health. 'Cause that one seems
Kirsty (04:36)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (04:36)
to be all about anxiety and how it affects your sexuality and how it affects your relationships and
can influence your career in lots of different ways. I like that she goes so deep into that theme. So I got a lot of enjoyment out of Tough Guy. But with these two, Common Goal and then Game Changer, I find that they sort of in terms of writing quality, I feel like there's more holes in these ones. It feels like
Kirsty (05:00)
Yeah.
Declan (05:00)
sort of a bit more underdeveloped, if that makes sense.
Kirsty (05:03)
Yeah, no, get that. I do get that.
Declan (05:08)
And for this book as well, are there any characters that stand out for you for from Common Go itself? Because obviously you have your favourites and sometimes you can read a bad book but you'll have like a character that you fall in love with.
Kirsty (05:23)
Yeah, so I do like both Kyle and Eric as characters. Like I said earlier, I like Eric's character arc being an older MC. But for standout characters for me, and this probably won't come as a surprise because we've talked about how role model is my favorite, is I like in this book that this is the point where you're starting to see Troy change the way
Declan (05:48)
And
Kirsty (05:49)
he's thinking.
know when because there's a part isn't there in this book where Eric's at the All-Star game and he's talking to Troy and they're having that conversation and Eric's noticing that Troy is never really happy you know in the kind of conversation that he's having with him and Troy's asking about Scott and wanting to speak to Scott and I think that that's like I like that part because that's the point you're starting to see that Troy's mindset is changing a little bit and that maybe his friend is a bit of a crappy person.
Declan (06:21)
Yeah, you get that sort of peek behind the curtain, that idea
Kirsty (06:24)
Yeah.
Declan (06:25)
that maybe there's a bit more to his character than at first seems, because obviously Riote, Tough Guy, and then some of Common Goal, you get the idea that he's just sort of going along with his friend and that he doesn't really have much of like a standout character, but then you sort of get a peek behind the door and you see that the two of them, you know, might not have the healthiest dynamic in the world.
Kirsty (06:49)
and Ilya, obviously Ilya being the lurker that he is in every single book, I do enjoy him in this as well.
Declan (06:59)
I love Ilya lurking. It's like my favorite part
Kirsty (07:01)
me too.
Declan (07:02)
of this series. I think that's probably also why I enjoy Role Models so much is that he has such an active role in that book. But I also like
Kirsty (07:09)
Yeah.
Declan (07:10)
the way that he makes himself known in this one and he's kinda like the matchmaker. He's like really pushing these two together because obviously they have so much doubt about their relationship. They're very different people. They're at different stages of their lives. And they're making a lot of excuses to like not pursue one another. But then you have Ilya sort of going
Why not? Like, who cares? Just just go for it. You like him, he likes you, why not give it a try?
Kirsty (07:33)
Yeah, he's like,
he's what everybody needs in the series. He's just appears and he's like, gives them unsolicited, like unsolicited advice. And he's just, he helps them out, just unintentionally throughout all of the books. He is,
Declan (07:48)
Yeah.
Kirsty (07:48)
he's iconic when he lurks.
Declan (07:51)
I think that's what
a lot of people don't get the or h so far haven't got to appreciate from the show. I can't wait for him to show up on like every episode as this like side character and everyone's stories.
Kirsty (08:02)
Yeah.
Declan (08:03)
Just to pop his head in and go, You know, you two could just do this and maybe do that and stop freaking out about that and the and this. It's so funny
Kirsty (08:10)
Yeah.
Declan (08:10)
he goes and plays matchmaker throughout the rest of the series. It's so interesting to see him come up.
Kirsty (08:15)
Yeah, I agree.
Declan (08:18)
There is also I think for me, Eric might be my favourite in this book. I feel like his story is the one that I think has a bit more depth to it. I think Ryan's problem is pretty like typical of a romance book. Like it's not uncommon to see you know, a character trying to pine after someone and not being able to have them that unrequited love thing.
It's a story you see quite frequently, but the idea of like a much older man entering a new point of his life is sorta like for him it's his retirement years and meeting this very young but incredibly well educated and cultured guy who challenges his perception of, you know, what he wants a relationship to look like and what it could look like.
And not to mention the fact that he's closeted during all this as well. So not only does Eric have to deal with the anxiety of, you know, coming out, but he would be coming out into a relationship that has a significant age gap of what close to twenty years. Like that's
Kirsty (09:31)
Yeah.
Declan (09:32)
not small, that's significant. And so I like his sort of character way it's set up and how he has this sort of perfectly aligned life.
That he's just been living robotically for so long. Like, even the way he eats his diets, the way that his house is kept, and the way in which he trains and does his meditations in the morning, like everything is so constructed and well maintained. And then in the end, it's not making him happy. And you throw in the curveball of the young guy who not only would force him to come out, but also
force him to come out with someone much younger. I think that's an interesting story for him. So I find that I get more out of Eric than anyone else in the book.
Kirsty (10:22)
Yeah, yeah, completely. He's, I
Declan (10:26)
Mm.
Kirsty (10:27)
guess the only thing for me when it does come to Eric is the third act breakup frustrates me. It does
Declan (10:33)
my God, right?
Kirsty (10:35)
because I just, in my head, like he, I completely empathise and I get why he's so worried about that age gap. But also on the flip side, Kyle is an adult man who's 25 years old and can make the decision himself.
Declan (10:48)
Yeah.
Kirsty (10:52)
To be fair, plot in any book, if there is an age gap, and the older one makes a decision for somebody else to be like, I can't do this because I don't want to disrupt your life, that does frustrate me, especially when they're adults with a fully developed frontal
Declan (11:10)
Yeah.
Kirsty (11:11)
lobe.
Declan (11:12)
And this was like one of my main gripes with this book. I despise the Ferdack breakup when it's kind of convoluted. And I think
Kirsty (11:22)
Mm.
Declan (11:23)
that's my issue with this book is that that breakup is very convoluted. It's all to do with mental gymnastics that Eric is doing in his head. Even though we've spent most of the book justifying why this is perfectly fine and also demonstrated that no one really cares.
about this age gap. The only one that seems to care is Eric. And so he's had all this time to be convinced. He's had all these you know, people basically giving him the go ahead to be like, It's fine, I'm not gonna judge you, it's gonna be okay. And it's still not enough. And for me at that point it's like, well, why are you wasting Kyle's time then? Or why have you been wasting his time if it was so unokay that you feel the need to now end it after you've received the go ahead from everybody?
You know, is this just like do you just not like him that much? And that's another thing that kinda bugs me about this book. Most of the characters in this series you do get the feeling that's like they're forever for each other. I don't get that with these two.
Kirsty (12:28)
Yeah, I completely understand that. don't think, when I've read the book, even I don't finish it thinking they're gonna be together forever. I completely get that it could probably be a happy for now, was it happy for now, HFN? And
Declan (12:45)
Yeah.
Kirsty (12:46)
it really wouldn't surprise me when it comes to Unrivaled if they're no longer together. But I just, for me, I do think Kyle is exactly.
who Eric needs at that point in his life. So even if
Declan (12:58)
Mm. Yeah.
Kirsty (13:00)
it is just a happy for now, he was good for him.
Declan (13:06)
I really like that. And I actually agree with that in general, like in life. I think sometimes you will meet people that you're not gonna be with forever, but will do something very important for you as a person. And I think obviously breakups are very complicated and they can be really hard and involve a lot of pain. And that can result in a lot of anger for someone, even if you know, it might have ended amicably or anything like that.
I feel like a lot of resentment clouds the important development and happy times that you did have with someone. and so you can meet someone at the right moment and then just not be the right person forever. And so that idea that like, you know, the hap happy was it happy for now? I've never heard that. That's great. Yeah.
Kirsty (13:56)
Happy for now, yeah.
Declan (13:59)
I really like that. And that kind of speaks true for me for these two as well. I I
I agree with you on that. Definitely.
Kirsty (14:07)
Yeah, they are, I think the entire like vibes that I get from the book, because obviously you've got the unrequited love between Kyle and Kyle with Kip as well. I think the
Declan (14:17)
Yeah.
Kirsty (14:18)
the entire sort of vibes of the book give that, like give a romance that just is a little more realistic, like you said, where it's like, so who they need now, at this point in their life, and that you don't always end up with the person that you think you're going to end up with.
So it would be fitting if they're no longer together in the future in Rachel's world.
Declan (14:46)
Yeah, I can sort of see that as well. I mean, the idea that she would separate them, I don't know how many people would actually be that broken up about the idea of it. I think what makes it like like in general with their romance, like did you sort of buy into the chemistry and and the sort of the the way that the two of them want to be together? Did it like feel for you like really strong or like how was it put across?
Kirsty (15:19)
don't know, guess yes and no. When I read the spicy scenes between them, I can feel that chemistry between them, but I don't know if it's chemistry and love or if it's just chemistry, where two people who are attracted to each other just click really well. It doesn't always necessarily mean that it's love, does it?
Declan (15:44)
Mm. Yeah, I can see that. For me it was like
I'm not that invested in this. And I think so much of it is to do with how difficult I found it to believe Kyle really wanted it. Because in my head, Kyle is just trying to get over Kip. And so he's going for this mature, very hot man who is extremely successful and has common interests with him. But in terms of like
you know, seeing them together and like, my god, they're soulmates, they're meant for each other. I just didn't get that with these two. I think it's just I think there's a barrier here that's being caused by Kyle's sort of hang ups in relation to Kip. And it lasts for a long time in the book. Like that's the problem.
Kirsty (16:43)
Yeah, it does, doesn't it? I
was thinking before talking about this with you, I was like, was there any point, like, can I recall any point where I thought that Kyle was no longer pining over Kip? And I don't think I really can. I can't recall that moment where he's, yeah, where he realizes he doesn't really have those feelings for him anymore.
Declan (17:06)
Yeah, I'm kind of thinking the same and maybe there was a moment but if if it if it happened, like it wasn't very memorable because neither of us
Kirsty (17:14)
Yeah.
Declan (17:15)
can remember it happening. But I think it needed that like maybe halfway through this book for Kyle to go, You want to know something? I haven't thought about Kip in ages.
Kirsty (17:25)
Hmm.
Declan (17:26)
And when I look at him and Scott now, it doesn't fill me with envy or jealousy or anything. It I just feel content for my friend.
Kirsty (17:35)
Yeah.
Declan (17:35)
I think
I needed something like that really laid out because
Kirsty (17:38)
Yeah.
Declan (17:39)
his attraction is laid on really thick throughout the book. his attraction to to Kip and the jealousy that he has in relation to Scott. because we can't rely too heavily on how Eric feels towards Kay to sort of keep this realistic and keep it
Kirsty (17:57)
Yeah.
Declan (17:58)
like well grounded. Because he is like one foot in, one foot out at all points of this book. So
It is a real challenge and I think it's not in balance the best. But I also do like the idea that Kyle is hanging on to Kip a little bit. I do like that's a nice start for him in this book, but I think it just goes on a bit too long, maybe.
Kirsty (18:22)
Yeah, yeah definitely.
Declan (18:26)
Hmm. you really appreciate the age gap sort of story in this, the fact that Eric was older, and you've read a lot of romance, but like myself, how do you feel in general about like age gap romance stories?
Kirsty (18:45)
So if they're done well, absolutely, I do enjoy them. And I find that in queer books, it's different to MF romance because you don't have that patriarchal gender imbalance straight away with an age gap
Declan (19:01)
I mean, yeah.
Kirsty (19:02)
in them. I'm not saying that those power imbalances don't exist because look at Kyle's backstory. His backstory was he was 18 years old and he got groomed by his director in work, wasn't it?
That had a power imbalance when it came to an age gap. But for this book in particular, there's no power imbalance there. The only difference is that almost 20 year age difference. So with age gap romances, do enjoy them sometimes. It's just got to be done. It's got to be done well. And they've both got to be adults and fully consenting. And it's just.
Declan (19:43)
Yeah.
Kirsty (19:43)
Yeah, it's a fine
line sometimes when it comes to age gaps in romance.
Declan (19:48)
Yeah, I agree. And I hadn't even now that I'm thinking about what you brought up, like the idea that if this was, you know, MF romance, this would be completely different. It'd be a different dynamic. Because obviously there is a different sort of power imbalance in a relationship like that. which is also still true of queer relationships, that's also true.
Kirsty (20:10)
Of course, yeah.
Declan (20:11)
But I feel like given the you know
background of misogyny and of I think violence against women and the how a lot of young women have been taken advantage of and put into relationships with men much older than them. It does you know it does matter what sort of context the age gap is done in and the context of the characters in their past and you talked about Kyle's past which I thought you know when I was reading it
was very interesting and it would have been an interesting hang up for Kaya to have, but it was sorta just given to Eric instead. If that makes sense. Like Eric was more bothered by it than Kaya was. Kyle had sorta already towards the end of the book is like, you know, it happened and it was this thing and but it's Eric that's the one that's deeply affected by it. And I think it's like maybe a fear for him that he is
you know, he is working with the same intention that that man did and that he is taking advantage of Kyle. But also ignoring the fact that Kyle's now an adult. He's 25 years old. He is fully developed frontal lobe. He he can consent to this if he wants to. And
Kirsty (21:30)
Yeah.
Declan (21:31)
Eric struggles to separate those two facts from each other and only just focuses on the idea that he is taking advantage of Kyle.
Kirsty (21:39)
Yeah,
Declan (21:41)
Mm.
Kirsty (21:41)
yeah I agree with that.
Declan (21:45)
I think as well with the way that Age Gap is handled in this book, I'm gonna say that having now read more Age Gap romances from when I first read this, because I read this book like a couple years ago, before Heather Rivalry was out or anything like that. And I thought that the age gap was kind of like it got annoying at a point. I felt it was just such a non-issue at a certain
point because everyone was okay with it and all the characters were okay with it. The only ones that were really bothered by it were mainly Eric and Kay sometimes. but then I read When We Ignite by Alex Cross, if you've ever read that.
Kirsty (22:30)
No, I haven't.
Declan (22:31)
That is an age gap between a CEO of a company and his soon-to-be brother-in-law, who is nineteen or twenty years old, and this guy is about 33, 34. The way in which the age gap is depicted and how people realistically react to it in that book is night and day to come and go. And I think it works better the more realistically you handle it.
Because let's be honest, famous hockey player goalie comes out and not only is he gay but he is dating someone that is what fifteen, sixteen years younger than him. And the idea that everyone is okay with that is not realistic. I don't think that's
Kirsty (23:19)
course.
Declan (23:20)
how things would unfold. I think there will be way more pushback, especially considering the fact that Eric is also incredibly wealthy.
And has a lot of prestige and could very, very easily be seen as taking advantage of him. Not to mention
Kirsty (23:38)
Mm.
Declan (23:38)
the idea of his like lasting legacy, his image. Like, how would that actually influence how events should be unfolding? Because Keg doesn't even consider that kind of element of things that, my god, he could be torn apart publicly for this relationship and he could lose everything that he worked for. His legacy could be trashed.
because of this this thing between the two of them and it's never even an idea that crosses his head. I find that that would have been a much more compelling reason for a Ferdack breakup, for them to really want to pull apart.
Kirsty (24:13)
Yeah,
do you know what? I've never considered that. And like you said, I think if Rachel had taken that turn with it, then yeah, the third act breakup would have 100 % made more sense because of what we were saying earlier, it just felt so pointless, didn't it? The point in the book that it happened.
Declan (24:38)
Yeah, I think and this is like a criticism of some of the earlier books that Rachel written is that she paints the hockey world in a much more idealistic way than it would actually fall out. and I think she does then go on to correct it. She introduces Croyle and Croyle is like the standard for realistic hockey expectations and how queer players would actually be treated. unfortunately we wish that they wouldn't be treated that way, but in reality
Kirsty (25:06)
course yeah.
Declan (25:07)
money talks and people with lots of money typically tend to be very old and have backwards reviews on stuff like this. But I think if she was writing with that new lens, the lens of how would this actually affect the hockey world in like a realistic way, like what would the actual reaction be? I think she would write it differently.
Kirsty (25:33)
hmm, it's a very good, very good point.
Declan (25:39)
I just appreciate the the way in which Women Ignite did it so much now that any time I look for an age gap now I'm like I want this to be as painfully realistic as possible. Because see when the like consequences of that book hit, I'm like
Kirsty (25:56)
Yeah.
Declan (25:56)
I was like, my god, of course of course people would behave like this. Of course this is how things would react. Of course they would lose this and lose that and people would make that assumption and this thing and
Then whenever I was rereading this book for the podcast, I was like, This is your age gap. Like, this is such an interesting trope. It's such an interesting theme. There's so much in it. And it in this book boils down to, well, you know, there's a lot of years between us and it's a bit awkward. Like it's
Kirsty (26:29)
Yeah.
Declan (26:30)
Yeah, I feel like there's more that could have been done with it. But that's just my opinion.
Kirsty (26:34)
Yeah,
like, yeah, that's a very fair point because like you said, I was thinking in the sense of this is like this is fiction and sometimes people want to write fiction that's not very representative of the real world because it will make people feel better and make people feel seen. But then with Rachel's books, she does so well at writing about how the hockey environment is not a safe space for queer people. So it's almost like
does that part of it really, really well. But then, like you said, with an age gap that realistically speaking, if anybody read about that in the media, they'd be like, what? It's just kind of, yeah, it is brushed over, isn't it?
Declan (27:18)
Yeah, I think it's to and for some writers obviously it's difficult to walk a line. Like age gaps can be uncomfortable for people. And people hold very strong opinions about age gaps in real life and in real life relationships. and I think maybe it might be playing into this a little bit. I think she's trying to take the awkwardness out of it maybe and appeal to people and appeal to this idea that it's more okay than you know.
A realistic reaction might entail. so I can sort of understand why she might not have wanted to get too into the idea of it. and just had it as like, you know, an obstacle for her characters to overcome by obstacles that need overcoming for these guys, and I'm going through this in. but I don't know, yeah. For me it's just a bit of a missed opportunity. I think she could have delved a bit deeper into that and sort of expanded upon the theme. Because it's so key to everything. It's it's
The whole point of why they can't just be together from the start.
Kirsty (28:20)
Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's
Declan (28:24)
Mm.
Kirsty (28:25)
very good point.
Declan (28:26)
Yeah, there was something else as well you said about it's Cyed's trauma when he turns eighteen. it's not actually discussed much how sexualized younger gay men are. I think it's such a it's a big topic in regards to young women. People are very aware of doing that now that it's not right.
a big example for me is like, you know, Billie Eilish. Like she dressed a particular way for a long time just because she didn't want to be overly sexualized because she was so young.
Kirsty (29:04)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (29:06)
but whenever you're on TikToks and things like that there and you're consuming media, I do find that like queer young queer people are sexualized in a lot of ways as well. I think Heartstopper's a good example of that. I think Kick Connor and
Joe Locke were very sexualized during the making of that
Kirsty (29:27)
Yeah.
Declan (29:27)
show and you know, whenever they were making it, you know, they were still teenagers and I find that it's not something that's brought up often because obviously the same thing happens to Kyle here. He is sort of like groomed, he is groomed in the a sexual relationship with a man who is much, much older than him and he is much more vulnerable than he currently is. So I was just wondering like
What are your thoughts about Rachel sort of bringing that idea into things?
Kirsty (30:01)
It's, it makes it the bad part of Kyle's sort of character arc is I find it quite sad. And but we I think it's something you said earlier, it's not really like, Kyle's just kind of like, it was my fault. Like that's that's how he describes it doesn't it in the book, he was like, well, I was 18, I was an adult, it's my fault. And it's just, I think from my perspective, I would have liked
him to have worked through that a little bit because it wasn't his fault at all. Just because he's 18 years old and in the eyes of the law is deemed an adult doesn't make him an adult.
Declan (30:41)
Yeah.
Kirsty (30:43)
That's why I said he was basically groomed in the workplace, wasn't he, by somebody who is very, very senior to him. And yeah, I think it's bit difficult, isn't it, that one?
Overall, it makes me really, sad. And that's probably one of the parts I struggle with reading that book.
Declan (31:07)
Yeah, I think it remains a bit unresolved, I think.
Kirsty (31:12)
Yeah.
Declan (31:13)
And that kinda bothers me because it had long reaching effects for Cade and Cade's life. I mean, his relationship with his parents is non existent because of that event. Like he obviously they had an issue with him being gay to begin with, but this seems to be like the nail in the coffin. And the fact that he didn't have that sort of support.
And that, you know, empathy and understanding from his parents that hold on, our son was taken advantage of. Like he was 18 years old. This man has a family and he is in a position of power over him. And yet what his life is now ruined. And the way in which his parents react, I think, is just terrible. It's like you said, it's just like a very sad part of the book.
Kirsty (32:01)
Yeah.
Declan (32:02)
And yeah, I just think that
It's just not it's one of those elements that is quite interesting. This is what I mean. The first half of this book is really good because it introduces
Kirsty (32:15)
Yeah.
Declan (32:15)
all these things and all these ideas and all this really interesting character story and background story. But then when it gets to the R half, they're not like properly resolved or pursued or expanded upon and I mean most of what comes out of that conversation is Eric's guilt.
about what happened to him and nothing in terms of like, Kel, have you talked to someone about this? Like, have you discussed this with your parents? I would have loved a conversation between Kelly and his parents towards the end of this book.
Kirsty (32:47)
Yeah,
for sure. It does leave Kyle's character arc completely unfinished, like you said, doesn't it? That confrontation with his parents, I think, would have been really, really good to see. And
Declan (33:04)
Mm.
Kirsty (33:05)
even in a situation where Eric is there for his support.
Declan (33:10)
Yeah, it would have been like a nice moment of like solidarity between the two. And
Kirsty (33:13)
Yeah.
Declan (33:15)
also it would have been a very interesting scene to read because you have the son returning, the gay son that you don't really approve of, coming and giving you what for for essentially abandoning him whenever he had been groomed and used. and he's showing up with his new boyfriend who is now an older man. Like
That kind of the potential for like the back and forths and that like I would have really loved. but again it's just that idea that, you know, it's not fully realized. It's like it needs it needs a bit more time to cook. That's the kind of like the end half of this book. I get that feeling really strongly that it just needs to cook a little longer. And I don't know why it was sort of put out exactly as it is, with all these on-resolved
Kirsty (34:02)
Mm.
Declan (34:03)
threads. I think
It's funny, I think she is a much better writer after this book. I think the writing quality massively improves. and the reason I'm saying it is that I find a tough guy had a similar issue with Fabian's character where she created lots of threads for Fabian and resolved none of them. Where it was very much sort of Ryan's story. And I have a theory that, you know, there's one main character per book and they're all the hockey players.
And the the other sort of point of view is just like a side character to facilitate their story. and so a lot of their threads and a lot of their, you know, conflicts that are introduced are never fully resolved. And so with similar to Tough Guy, I wanted Fabian's parents to get a what for from Fabian for the way that they treated him growing up.
And then we have a similar thing where I want Ryan to give his parents a watch for for not standing by him whenever that happened.
Kirsty (35:06)
Yeah, no it is, that's completely true. It would be nice to see wouldn't it and especially because I don't know what see when it came to Rachel's when she was writing these what the intention was whether they were the intention was that they were going to be one book whether they were going to be two and it just didn't happen because like you said I just feel like they there could have been a lot more there's the and thinking of the way the series is going to go.
and with Unrivaled primarily being another Shane and Ilya book, I just, for all these other characters, I just, I'm like, I wanna know what happened. wanna know, have any of them resolved any of their issues? Or have any of them,
Declan (35:49)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty (35:50)
like, confronted, like, any of their parents for being crappy?
Declan (35:55)
Yeah. I like the idea that we're gonna get a book of like the psych characters going back and complaining exclusively about their parents. And that's the entire point of the book. Yeah. You didn't rivalry confronting your parents.
Kirsty (36:07)
A little novella of them confronting their crap parents.
Declan (36:15)
I think. And you know, I'd buy that. Just Yeah, just for a little
Kirsty (36:18)
Yeah, me too. Just for some closure.
Declan (36:21)
bit of closure since we're we're we're struggling so much.
But no, I do I do think that that's a common issue in the earlier books. There's lots of reds left unresolved. but them I think this is role model's my favourite book as well, by the way. Role model feels like a complete book that could stand on its own.
Kirsty (36:41)
Yeah, completely.
Declan (36:43)
The threads are all tied up. Everything introduced
Kirsty (36:46)
Yeah.
Declan (36:47)
for a character has a resolution or a conclusion or some element of that is like sorted out by the end of that book. It feels like a really complete story. Whereas Tough Guy and Common Goal have an issue of feeling unresolved. Heat of Rivalry as well. See when I read that first, before the show and before all this, and I just read Heather Rivalry,
Kirsty (37:07)
Yeah.
Declan (37:08)
they had the same issues. I think
You get rose tinted glasses when you go back and reread Heat It Rivalry because you work within knowledge of long game. And so you begin viewing those books as you know, like one one continuous story. And in that sense, the pacing makes sense there. But sorry. It didn't whenever it first came out. like there were three books between Heat at Rivalry and then Long Game.
And so you had Heat at Reveler, which felt a bit unfinished. Their story didn't feel wrapped
Kirsty (37:45)
Yeah.
Declan (37:46)
up. There was too many threads left undone. And trust that Rachel was always going to come back to. But those other books that follow that share that issue. But there's no plan to resolve them that we know of. So yeah, I think she got herself into a structure of writing that she finally works herself out of by the time she reached role model. And she's a bit more.
conscious about wrapping stuff up within that one book. obviously you can leave little side character threads and stuff like that there and that leads you into your new characters and your other books. But I do feel that our main characters sometimes just end up a bit unresolved at times.
Kirsty (38:30)
I guess when I when I think back,
on the other books with the other characters. Eric is what sort of mentioned in Game Changer because he's obviously on the same team as Scott. But that's that's like it. And then we've got this book, a book about him. I don't know if I'm making sense here. And it's the same with like Ryan. He's on the team. He's on the team and well, is he mentioned at all? I think he's mentioned in Heated Rivalry, isn't he? I can't remember. I've read these books loads and yet
Declan (38:57)
Yeah, I think it mentioned, yeah. Yeah.
Kirsty (39:01)
It's like it goes in one ear and out the other sometimes.
But yeah, so we don't really have, there's not really much of a character arc and then we have their book. Do you understand what I'm saying? Whereas with like, yeah.
Declan (39:12)
Yeah. And you're expecting it all to be resolved within that.
But then you end up coming out feeling a bit like, that's not done yet. Especially for their partners. I feel like the partners
Kirsty (39:22)
especially for their partners.
Declan (39:25)
are the the biggest casualties in that sort of sense, where they do tend to get sort of the short end of the stick. And a lot of their conflicts that are introduced aren't like properly resolved. They're just sort of there to justify
The way that they behave towards the sort of main character, the hockey player. that's my read of it. Maybe I'm
Kirsty (39:47)
Mm.
Declan (39:47)
being a bit unkind to Rachel Read, but I just couldn't help but think that this book's later half needed a bit more work and a bit more planning to resolve certain things. And that for that breakup,
Kirsty (40:01)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (40:02)
honestly, I it annoys me.
Kirsty (40:04)
is frustrating.
I have a massive issue with Pete, like, and I get his fiction, but I do have a massive issue sometimes when they fail to communicate.
Declan (40:15)
Yeah, I just
Miscommunication for me is my most hated trope. Like no communication, miscommunication. Your inability to say what you mean and say what you think. Like that is like first half of book stuff. That's not like that cannot be your third act issue. Please don't
Kirsty (40:38)
Yeah.
Declan (40:39)
let it be your third act issue. Let it be something material that directly has a realistic implication for these people.
Eric has spent this entire book being told that age gaps are absolutely fine, and Eric is, you know, ignoring that phrase. And so it's just sort of like, Do I need to beat this into your head? Like, how much more do you need for us to
Kirsty (41:02)
Hmm.
Declan (41:03)
like move on with this because it's getting boring? I think that's that's the best way I can put it. Like, it is getting boring that this is still a hang up for you. And, you know, you might be legitimate in it.
But as a reader, it's like, come on, like this can't be everything that carries us through here. Why not like have like maybe Eric's mother shows up and then she sees the two of them together and she's like, What the fuck is this? Something like give me something to shake it up. Don't just keep continuingly doing the same thing and undo all the character progress you've made of like getting him to believe all this stuff and getting him to believe that the age gap is okay.
Kirsty (41:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Declan (41:47)
Mm.
I had another question as well in regards to retirement in hockey and how it's depicted in Eric's character. How what do you sort of think should be in the book and do you think Rachel Reed like did a good job of it of handling, you know, what comes after the retirement for these players?
Kirsty (42:15)
I feel like none of them seem to have the sort of fear that, to be fair, probably the likes of me and you have when it comes to retirement in our 60s, 70s,
Declan (42:23)
Yeah.
Kirsty (42:24)
whenever we're actually legally allowed to retire. I don't know what the age will be by the time we are.
Declan (42:27)
Yeah. Was it years old?
Kirsty (42:31)
Yeah, they, it seems to be very much...
don't know, they seem to just have it all figured out afterwards. And I'm like, but you've spent your entire life training and playing for this game. Like, even though Eric is kind of like, I do know what, I'm going to have to retire. He's still like, do you know what? I'm going to buy a bar with Scott. That would be my post-retirement plan.
Declan (42:55)
Yeah.
Kirsty (42:56)
I'm like, fair play. least, you
Declan (42:58)
Yeah.
Kirsty (42:59)
know, at least you've got a plan. But there's another book called...
Goal Tender Interference, I don't know if you've read by Aerie Baron. They are, they write sports romance and their hockey books and they deal with retirement from a hockey player really, really well in Goal Tender Interference. And it's kind of like this character really, really struggles with sort of knowing what they want to do with their life post-hockey.
Declan (43:33)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty (43:34)
And
like that's done so well. just feel like, and probably because these are at the end of the day, really happy, sort of contemporary romance books. I know that there's a bit of angst in them, but overall, they're really, really joyful. And maybe that's why Rachel once has made it a bit sort of easier for these characters to be like, yeah, I've got a plan post-hockey retirement.
Declan (44:02)
Yeah. I think you're right in the sense that it could have went into a lot more detail in how Eric was feeling about it. Like because all of this ties very strongly in the this age gap that is going on between him and Kyle. Like, is Eric having a midlife crisis? Is this why he likes this younger guy?
Kirsty (44:24)
This is, do you know,
do you know what I guess that like if there was sort of any indication throughout that Eric was really struggling with the thought of retiring after 20 odd years and playing hockey, and then you had the third act breakup about his age gap, I could understand that, you know, he's, he's really anxious, his anxiety and his mental health is struggling because he's leaving his job. And this feels like a really big thing for him, but because it doesn't
do that. It comes back to that third act breakup. It was just pointless. You know,
Declan (44:58)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty (44:59)
if he was really worried and stressed about retiring and not knowing what he wanted to do with his life afterwards. And then because of that, everything was heightened for him. And that led to a third act breakup. That would make a lot more sense. I think. Yeah.
Declan (45:15)
Yes, because it's being healed by something. Like
there's a reason why he suddenly he's he's reached breaking point. Like there's too much stress. He's having horrible anxiety about this. And this is resulting now in him questioning everything to do with Kyle and is Kyle just a mid leg crisis? Is it like are my feelings real for him? Is this just me trying to cling on to my youth? Like what like how do I feel about that?
But it's just not it's unexplored. It's not explored.
Kirsty (45:50)
No, no, it's not.
Declan (45:52)
And I think would have been such a great idea to really delve into the idea of retirement. I read a Serena Bowen one as well that goes into retirement and I think it's for a a goalkeeper as well. That handles it with a lot more, you know, I think realism. Like when you're
like ending your career. It's very different for lots of people. And I am a counselor as well, on top of this. And I meet a lot of people who have entered that point in their lives where retirement is coming or it's already happened. And they like enter a grieving process. Like they're grieving the the life that they have had to that point.
the loss of the job of the people that you spend all this time around and people that have become close to you and friends with you and know your kids and who know your family and what's going on with you at all times and especially for people that are really passionate about their jobs, like Eric would be, there is a real deep grief that comes with letting it go and having to move on from it.
Feel like it's missing here. And because he does, obviously, because we're talking about a hockey player, someone who like you cannot be a hockey player and get to that level by just being extremely good. You have to have passion and you have to care. And so he would have all those things, he would be experiencing all those emotions, but it's not coming out and it's not being presented to the reader.
It could be all subcontext and maybe this is all what's going on in the back of his mind if he actually picked it apart. But it's not clear enough in the story to indicate to us that wow, he's really struggling with this and maybe this is why he has the issue with the age gap. Maybe it's the fact that it's making him feel old and it's making him feel worse about
Kirsty (47:55)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (47:56)
the fact that his life is about to change and that he's about to step back from that role.
Kirsty (48:02)
Yeah, completely agree with that.
Declan (48:06)
So there's also another theme that I think we should touch on, which is obviously in relation to Kip and Kyle, which is unrequited love. Now, in romances, typically, it's more like a plot device to bring two characters together. So like you might have that one best friend that's been pining after the other and then the whole story's about them getting together. How do you feel if that's into this where it's like
used as a device of like motivation to find somebody else that's not that unrequited love.
Kirsty (48:41)
So I think I'm going to probably try and play a bit of Devil's advocate here, because personally, I don't like it in this sense. Because like you said, I like unrequited love in a romance when it is leading to them being together at the end. And it's something that we talked about.
sort of earlier, there's kind of not a moment in this book where I find that Kyle has realised that he's not in love with Kip anymore and is in love with Eric. So sometimes I feel a bit sorry for Eric when it comes to Kyle, because I'm like, does Kyle still love Kip? I don't know. And I think as well with Kyle and Kip, is Kyle such a big presence in Kip's life as well? It's a little bit, it's a little bit uncomfortable, isn't it? Especially when
Kip is in a committed relationship and he's getting married to somebody else. It does feel a little bit uncomfortable at times. But something that I also said earlier is that I like the vibes with this book because it kind of is showing that at this point, it's not always, it's not always somebody's life to meet their partner straight away, if that makes sense. It's not, that might not be their, that might not be your life plan.
Declan (49:58)
Yeah.
Kirsty (50:00)
Like you could think it is, like Kyle could have thought Kip's my forever, but it's just an indication that doesn't always work out that way. So yeah, I kind of can see what Rachel was getting at in this book. But
Declan (50:15)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty (50:17)
yeah, overall, I don't like that bit. I'd rather Kyle have just been like, I'm single, want to meet someone and then meet Eric. I just didn't like the fact he was still pining for Kip.
whilst sort of building a relationship with Eric.
Declan (50:32)
Yeah, yeah, like pursuing a relationship when you're in love with someone else is like really shitty thing to do. And I think
Kirsty (50:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (50:41)
that's sort of like the main issue with it that I have anyway is by the end of this book, right?
I can almost guarantee that if Scott and Kip broke up, Kyle would pursue Kip.
Kirsty (50:57)
Yeah, it did give
Declan (51:00)
I
Kirsty (51:00)
that.
Declan (51:01)
like that really sorry for Eric. That feels like something that Kyle might do. Like I think he would allow boundaries to be blurred. I don't think he would be overly enforceable with them had Kip say like come on to him in a moment. I just I think that's a big issue for me in regards to believing their relationship is
By the end of this book, I am not convinced that if Kip dropped Scott that Kyle and Kip wouldn't try to be together. Like that it's not great. It's not great to end your your romance like that. Especially because, like you said, this is supposed to be a lighthearted romance, it's supposed to be nice and fluffy and like it's supposed to be like, you know, one true love and and it's that kind of vibe that Rachel's going for. But by the end of this book, you're like
I don't know if you're over that gap
Kirsty (51:57)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (51:59)
yet. If you look at the unrequited love as a theme in romance, it's typically an underdog story. So it is it's someone who has a goal who you've
grown to really like and you know one thing that'll make them happy but it's not likely to be achievable. And so there's a satisfaction when they get what they want and they finally get it. All the odds were stacked against them. They never thought they could have it and it's achieved. That's what an unrequited love story usually does. It presents an underdog and gives them a winning s a winning story. With this you're working in reverse. So you know the underdog story
The happy ever after for Kay, realistically, is Kip breaks up with Scott and Ham and Kip get together.
Kirsty (52:45)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (52:47)
That's that's sort of how an underdog story like this works. That's how Unrequited Love typically works in romances. So it could be that Rachel's trying to subvert expectation by doing it this way, where it's like, well, one of my characters is in love with somebody else, but they're going to meet this guy and then they're gonna be together and fall in love instead. But to do that, you would have really needed to buy into
The idea that Kyle wants Eric much more than he ever wanted Kip.
Kirsty (53:16)
Yeah, and you don't get that much do you? I feel like this is a... I don't deny that Kyle isn't attracted to Eric and doesn't love him by the end of the book but I do feel like Eric loves Kyle a hell of a lot more. That's
Declan (53:35)
Yeah.
Kirsty (53:36)
the impression that I get at the end.
Declan (53:38)
Yeah, even his motivation to his fur dye breakup is done out of like a moment of like love for him in a misguided
Kirsty (53:46)
Mm.
Declan (53:47)
way and in a confused way. Obviously he thinks that he's protecting Kyle's future by doing this and that he is ensuring that he has the best chance at, you know, a happy life by not like, you know, strapping him to as he perceives an old man who's just gonna drag him down. really misguided.
Obviously and he's stealing Kyle's agency free doing that. But it comes from a place
Kirsty (54:12)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (54:13)
of love, misguided love, but love nonetheless. I don't get the same level of devotion from Kyle. And I don't know if it's just because he doesn't have much opportunity to show it in the same way. yeah, I don't know. That romance just
Doesn't work as well for me, I don't think.
Kirsty (54:37)
No, that's fair. But like I said to you earlier, to me, I find that at this point in Eric's life, Kyle is just perfect for him. That's why I think it just works as a happy-for-now kind of situation.
Declan (54:53)
Yeah, because obviously Eric needs to get over his hang ups and I don't think it's gonna cause him much harm after retiring, running off with a hot twenty five year old to Europe and exploring culture and art with
Kirsty (55:09)
I
Declan (55:10)
them and having lots of fun and lots of experiences.
Kirsty (55:12)
Yeah.
Declan (55:13)
I mean, that's not bad. I mean for a retirement plan for the time being, it's it's pretty bang on the money. So yeah
Kirsty (55:21)
Mm.
Declan (55:22)
I do get what you say. Happy for now. I think that works. hopefully I don't know. We get a better version of them in the next few books. But also like
Kirsty (55:34)
if they're still together.
Declan (55:35)
Yeah, they're still the gap. Let's let's we'll not be cynical. We'll we'll say that they'll probably do the game. Yeah,
Kirsty (55:39)
yeah yeah hopefully
Declan (55:43)
if hopefully Rachel isn't gonna write anything too depressing for these two. But no, I mean my hope will be that.
One one scene I do want though addressed is like and this is brushed over in Game Changer, Kyle cheats or not, Kyle kisses Kip in Game Changer. When Kip is in a relationship with Scott. Yeah.
Kirsty (56:04)
Yes, I forgot about that.
Declan (56:08)
Kip and Scott have a fight and then Kip and Kyle kiss. And it's never mentioned.
Kirsty (56:17)
gosh, that would have been fun. To have that confrontation happen.
Declan (56:24)
If they are gonna do something messy and dramatic with Unrivaled, I want that to be a scene. I want this to slip out of somebody's mouth and for Kyle or Kip to accidentally say, Yeah, remember I was crazy at the time you kissed me? And I want both Eric and Scott to be like, What?
Kirsty (56:44)
And Ilya
just there like sipping his drink, just having a whale of a time.
Declan (56:51)
Shane and Ilya just sitting awkwardly looking at each other. Trying to avoid eye contact. Yeah.
Kirsty (56:54)
Yeah, that would be good, wouldn't it?
Declan (56:57)
So Richard Reed, if you're watching this, you know, I wouldn't mind a little scene like that. I think a bit of dramas. Dramas pretty welcome here, I think.
Kirsty (57:05)
Yeah.
Declan (57:07)
So obviously we've discussed the books now. I've said that my ranking for these books so far, it goes common goal, then game changers, then I would say heat at rivalry, tough guy, role model, no, tough guy, long game and then role model. That's my general ranking.
Kirsty (57:32)
I'm surprised
that Heated Rivory is so low down. Do you know what? Probably because of, to be fair, like you said, you read it before the show. I read it back in 2023 as well. So I think when I first read Heated Rivory, was like, this is about a three star. And then when I reread it and it's probably after, because I read the entire
Declan (57:53)
Yeah.
Kirsty (57:53)
series and then I reread it, I appreciated it a hell of a lot more. But for me,
Declan (57:59)
That's that's my application.
Yeah, yeah.
Kirsty (58:02)
Yeah, did you rank lowest first then? Yeah.
Declan (58:05)
Lowest first of the favourite.
Kirsty (58:08)
So Game Changer is the lowest for me. Tough Guy and Common Goal are on par for me. fourth and fifth them together. Heated Rivalry third, Long Game second, Royal Model first. I am Troy Barrett, it's the love of my life, I can't die. I absolutely adore him.
Declan (58:28)
He's the man I never had him.
Sometimes I try to like push my boyfriend into doing things so it's more Troy Barrett themed.
Kirsty (58:39)
Yeah.
has he read any of the books?
Declan (58:44)
No, no, like he does not read at all. Not a big reader. And English isn't his first language, so like he doesn't he's like, No, I'd rather sit in my phone and learn Spanish instead. But I'm curious about your ranking for game changers. The reason mine isn't the lowest is because it's it plays a big role in introducing a lot of things and a lot of stuff. But
In terms of like writing quality, I do think it is the lowest.
Kirsty (59:17)
It's the same for me. Like you said earlier, you can see, it's almost like you can see the progression and the writing get better then throughout the book.
Declan (59:25)
Yeah, a hundred percent. And then it sort of accumulates then in role model. I think role model is our like most consistent, well edited, paced book. And I'm really
Kirsty (59:37)
Yeah.
Declan (59:37)
excited to move on to it. 'Cause
Kirsty (59:39)
Yeah.
Declan (59:41)
that one I was discussing with Sullivan and I like, We're doing that one together, no doubt. This is my favorite one. We're definitely we're we're gonna go hard into this one because I have so much to say about it.
Kirsty (59:53)
Yeah, I'm really
looking forward to that episode. I could
Declan (59:55)
Ha
Kirsty (59:57)
sit and talk about role model for days. really, really could. I could write a dissertation on it. I absolutely love it.
Declan (1:00:06)
But Kirsty, thank you so much for joining me. I've had such a pleasant chat with you. Do you want to
Kirsty (1:00:10)
Yeah, I've had a lot of fun.
Declan (1:00:13)
thank you very much. Do you wanna let people know where they can find you and sort of but idea of your content and stuff like that?
Kirsty (1:00:21)
Yeah, of course. So I am pretty much active on Instagram at the bookashera underscore and pretty much on my content. It's like a brain dump. There's no way to describe it. Do you know some bookstagrams are really aesthetically pleasing. Mine is just like a brain dump. So I, you know, you just catch me on there screaming about all of my favourite books. I'm primarily a romance reader. I do dive into other books as well.
other genres but I wholeheartedly like just read romance and I try and use my platform as much as possible to amplify queer stories and queer authors as a pansexual princess myself so I yeah that's pretty much that's me and my stories are yappy so hopefully follow me if you love somebody that would just yap
Declan (1:01:13)
Trust
me, if people are watching this podcast, they love a yap.
Kirsty (1:01:20)
Yeah.
Declan (1:01:21)
Kirsty, thank you so much for joining us. guys, thank you for joining us as well. Make sure you like, subscribe, share this. Also, you can check out our book club on Fable. It's the long game book club at the minute. We just finished up Salt by Joni York. I don't know if you've read that yet, Kirsty. It's my god, it's one of the best books I've read this year.
Absolutely brilliant. But now we're moving on to Wolf's song by TJ Clue.
Kirsty (1:01:48)
Okay, I haven't read any TJ Clune, I have heard a lot but I haven't got there
Declan (1:01:52)
TJ Clunes.
Kirsty (1:01:53)
yet.
Declan (1:01:54)
Fantastic, fantastic writer. And so that's really exciting. So if either of those books appeal to you, and also we have lots of discussions about Hate Rivalry on there too in the books. so join us on Fable if that's something you're interested in. Again, check out the Patreon too, it's long game pods Patreon. and that's us for now. Thank you very much, and we'll see next time.