Ep 016: From The Parent’s Basement to The Child’s Front Yard with Yael Shy

Guest Episode #8 y'all! 
Yael Shy is the CEO of Mindfulness Consulting, LLC, where she teaches and consults on mindfulness for universities, corporations, and private clients around the world. She is the author of the award-winning book, What Now? Meditation for Your Twenties and Beyond (Parallax, 2017), and the founder of Mindful NYU, the largest campus-based mindfulness initiative in the US. She is adjunct faculty at the Institute for Jewish Spirituality, Or HaLev, as well as at New York University. She has been featured on Good Morning America, CBS, Fox 5 News, and in Time Magazine and the Harvard Business Review.

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Happy Parenting and Good Luck Out There!

Creators & Guests

Host

Jennifer Hayes

Host

Rick Hayes

NL

Editor

Natalie Long

Guest

Yael Shy

Yael Shy is the CEO of Mindfulness Consulting, LLC, where she teaches and consults on mindfulness for universities, corporations, and private clients around the world. She is the author of the award-winning book, What Now? Meditation for Your Twenties and Beyond (Parallax, 2017), and the founder of Mindful NYU, the largest campus-based mindfulness initiative in the US. She is adjunct faculty at the Institute for Jewish Spirituality, Or HaLev, as well as at New York University. She has been featured on Good Morning America, CBS, Fox 5 News, and in Time Magazine and the Harvard Business Review.

What is The Relational Parenting Podcast?

Welcome to the Relational Parenting Podcast! I’m Jennifer Hayes – a Parent Coach and 20 year Childcare Veteran. Each week I sit down with my own father (and cohost), Rick Hayes, and discuss the complicated issues that parents face today, as well as some of the oldest questions in the book. From the latest research and the framework of my Relational Parenting Method, we offer thought-provoking solutions to your deepest parenting struggles.
Relational Parenting is an evidence and experience based parenting method created by me - Jennie. After 20 years in the child care world, in every scenario you could possibly imagine, I realized one thing: EVERYONE was prioritizing the behavior and performance of a child over their emotional well-being. This frustrated me to no end and when I re-visited the latest research, I realized there was a better way. I started applying the principles I'd been learning in my own self-work, parent-child relationships, and partnerships, and I started gobbling up all the new research and books I could get my hands on. When I saw the results of putting these practices into play with the children I was taking care of - the difference in myself AND the kids I worked with was ASTOUNDING.
I am SO PROUD to be presenting Relational Parenting to the world. I can't wait to hear about your own journey. From Parents-to-be to the seasoned parenting veteran - there's something here for everyone!

Jennifer Hayes (00:00.162)
Thank you for letting me know that, Yael. Okay, we are live friends and family. Welcome back to the Relational Parenting Podcast.

Jennifer Hayes (00:37.486)
All right, that's great. So we are here with Ya'el Shai, and she is a meditation teacher, a mindfulness coach. She's an author. She's a mom. And I'm sure so many other hats that you wear. And I am just so excited that you are here today. The conversation that you and I had a couple of months ago when we were discussing the podcast.

was just so like, I felt so at peace after talking to you. Yeah. And I just like, you're just a very like soothing person in my experience. So anyway, let's find out more about you. Tell us about you. What are you up to right now? And let's talk about all of this mindfulness stuff and how it, how it, how it has affected your parenting.

Papa Rick (01:12.996)
Wow! Cool.

Yael (01:36.638)
Yeah, well, thank you so much, both of you for having me here today. It's a very, these are subjects that are very close to my heart. So a little bit about me, I live in Connecticut. I have, I'm a new transplant here, so yeah. I have two children, two boys, they're six and five. And I am, have.

Jennifer Hayes (01:40.959)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (01:53.566)
Oh.

Yael (02:01.806)
been a meditation teacher and consultant and coach for about 15 years. I worked previously at New York University for a long time, for over a decade where I ran their spiritual life center and I founded and ran the mindfulness center there. And in 2020, I started my own company called Mindfulness Consulting. And from there, I run.

Papa Rick (02:19.512)
Yeah, of course.

Yael (02:30.714)
classes, I run group coaching programs, and I do consulting for organizations and institutions. And yes, I have a book called What Now? Meditation for Your 20s and Beyond.

Jennifer Hayes (02:46.434)
Beautiful and that

Papa Rick (02:46.626)
Very cool. I saw the blurb about, I think it was on Amazon, about Mindful, NYU being the longest running campus-based mindfulness initiative. I was gonna ask you about that. That's pretty, you know, that's one of the differences between the East Coast and the flyover states. There's all this cool stuff going on in New York City and that kind of thing, and now 30 years later, we're finding out about it.

Yael (03:09.111)
Hehehehe

Papa Rick (03:17.054)
Central Illinois.

Yael (03:18.530)
Yes, no, it's definitely sweeping the country. Um, and I, it is what we believe to be the largest initiative. I don't know that it's the longest running, you know, who knows? I'll claim it if that's true. Take it.

Papa Rick (03:32.148)
Okay, maybe that's it. Okay.

Papa Rick (03:36.366)
There you go. There you go. It is now, because it's on the internet.

Jennifer Hayes (03:36.671)
Right?

Jennifer Hayes (03:39.998)
Right? You heard it here.

Papa Rick (03:44.430)
I'm going to go to bed.

Jennifer Hayes (03:46.850)
So when you and I talked, Yael, you said that you had this like really deep, really ingrained meditation practice and mindfulness practice and that when your kids came along, it kind of turned life upside down, which I'm sure most, if not all parents would say the same thing that every whatever their life was before kids was completely turned on its head. I would love to know more about how you navigated that.

especially with like the, I know that meditation is so, it can be so grounding and so integrating and it help you really like approach life in a calm, peaceful way. I'm curious of what that journey, that transition looked like for you.

Yael (04:34.222)
Yeah, it's funny because you said that sweet thing about that you felt calm after we talked, but my inner experience for most of my life is not calm. It is like I found meditation because I was like anxious, off the charts, anxiety. And

Papa Rick (04:40.632)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (04:45.323)
Ehehe

Papa Rick (04:50.542)
Oh, so it's learned, not innate. That's a good, that's a, that's a good story. There's hope for the rest of us.

Jennifer Hayes (04:50.699)
Yeah.

Yael (04:54.406)
Very much. Not only is it learned, but I don't even know that, like, I think it's my personality type that is anxious and fidgety and, you know, grasping. And so I think that my, like, I found meditation because I was really suffering from a lot of things. And it helped me so much. And then when I had kids, um,

Jennifer Hayes (04:58.006)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (05:07.166)
Mmm.

Papa Rick (05:16.818)
Okay, okay.

Yael (05:23.530)
I, yeah, it was like just a complete rupture of the person that I was. And then it became like this new person. And it took me years, it feels like, to like kind of learn who this new person was in relationship to the kids and my body and my partner and life. And so, yeah, the meditation practice I had was about a different kind of a...

Jennifer Hayes (05:45.548)
Yes.

Yael (05:52.110)
a stage of my life and it took me a lot of time to be like, okay, how does this help me here? What is this for here? Even if the basic principles are the same.

Jennifer Hayes (06:03.658)
Yeah. What did you...

Papa Rick (06:05.186)
That's kind of cool. Sorry, go ahead.

Jennifer Hayes (06:09.430)
That's okay. That's amazing. And I think that there's, I think it's funny that, let's see, I'm tripping all over my words. I think the people who are anxious, who are naturally have anxiety or depression or other mental health struggles or have just general struggles earlier in life tend to seek these things out for themselves.

Jennifer Hayes (06:39.414)
And then, and then we, because I mirror your experience, Yael, in searching for these healing modalities, we then become the teachers who continue spreading the message of the healing and the integration and all of those things. So how did you, how did you transform? Like, how did you, did you come back to your practice? Did it look completely different? Was it at a different time of day? Was it just...

Yael (06:57.247)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (07:08.106)
when you could fit it in? Did you meditate with your boys eventually? Like, how did it evolve?

Yael (07:16.814)
Yeah, I think in the very early years, it became more of like, the basic part of what the practice, the meditation practice became, was how can I make room for these changes and feelings and whatever is happening in the moment at that time, which was total chaos in my experience. How can I just stop?

Jennifer Hayes (07:38.347)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (07:41.398)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (07:42.114)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yael (07:45.050)
fighting, like adding more resistance to, you know, what was happening. And, um, and sometimes, you know, what was happening in those moments were sometimes like exquisitely incredible and sometimes extremely painful and like level five torture of not sleeping for, you know, two weeks or something.

Jennifer Hayes (08:06.638)
Hmm, yes.

Papa Rick (08:08.715)
Hmm.

Yael (08:09.186)
So it really like all formal practice went out the window in those very early years. And it became much more about like, okay, this is happening. Can I be with this? Can I be here? Can I be just with life as it's happening and not running away from it and not just spending all my energy wishing it was different. And then gradually, like all the logistical pieces of formal meditation practice, I was able to find my way to.

Jennifer Hayes (08:24.398)
Hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (08:28.247)
Yeah.

Yael (08:36.030)
It still doesn't look like it did when I was younger. Like when I was younger, I would, every chance I got probably about once a season, I would go on like a five, a seven, or two week long meditation retreat where that's all I did for the entire period of time with teachers all across the country adding care. And I'm not fancy free anymore at this stage. So I don't get to do many retreats, but, and I also can't practice when I want, whenever I want.

Jennifer Hayes (08:50.463)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (09:05.046)
Yeah.

Yael (09:05.366)
When people talk about practicing with their kids, it is not happening for me. My kids are like taking things apart, making noises. It's just not happening.

Papa Rick (09:12.926)
Yeah, four or five, that's yeah, getting them to sit down. We did a little bit of teaching of kids with karate and you had to be a little older than that to stand still and be disciplined. Yeah, meditation, yeah, that would be tough with wee ones.

Yael (09:25.782)
Right.

Jennifer Hayes (09:26.711)
Yeah.

Yael (09:30.470)
How much of the, I know you already talked about this, but I wonder how much of the karate and martial arts is, you know, infuses within it a kind of a mindfulness practice.

Papa Rick (09:43.294)
It does. It does. You, uh, it's, uh, it's really all internal, the external, and, and we were by no means, you know, 10th degree black belts, you know, we got to like purple belt, which was like three, three away from your black belt, three belts in our style and two, now there's three brown belts in our style. We were just about to go up for our brown first brown belt review. We, we would have been brown belts, but, but circumstances intervened, but there was a lot.

Jennifer Hayes (09:44.832)
It does.

Papa Rick (10:13.302)
of yeah, the training and the discipline and all that, that's all about building your inner self so that you don't need to fight. It's not really, it's very spiritual. We didn't really get into Buddhism, but it's very internal if you're doing it right, if you're going to the right class.

Yael (10:21.614)
Mmm.

Jennifer Hayes (10:34.058)
We did a little bit. We learned the eightfold path and the four noble truths. We did dip into some Buddhism. And I didn't know at the time that it was Buddhism. I thought it was just a karate philosophies. And when I studied religions later, I was like, oh, I know this. I learned this when I was 10.

Papa Rick (10:39.118)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Noble truths.

Papa Rick (10:53.876)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (10:59.058)
I've... I know this. Heheheheh. I had to memorize this.

Yael (11:02.349)
So... So... So...

Jennifer Hayes (11:05.166)
I had to memorize this, I was tested on this. So there was, you know, and the eightfold path and the four noble truths became almost mantra-like for us in how we conduct, like they would be woven, the concepts would be woven into the class. They hung on the walls on these really cool scrolled, you know, written in Japanese.

Papa Rick (11:16.982)
Yep. Yep.

Jennifer Hayes (11:30.114)
posters and stuff. And so there was, and like self-discipline and really knowing like it was drilled into us to not ever use this training to harm someone. It was only for self-defense.

Papa Rick (11:43.842)
Boy, yeah. Boy, boy, if you get in a fight, you better have a good reason and have a scar to show for it. Or so, you know, it's like, no, walk. This is so you can, you know, you punch them and run away. Don't, don't be out there. That's a, that's a real good observation though. Have you, do you, have you had some exposure with people in the martial arts or something like that to, to look at the spiritual side of it?

Yael (11:53.437)
Thank you.

Jennifer Hayes (11:53.952)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (11:58.028)
Yeah.

Yael (12:09.990)
I'm very interested. My son took like, I don't know, he lasted like maybe three months of karate. I'm hoping he goes back because I think it's just beautiful and I do think it is. Yeah, the principles are all there.

Papa Rick (12:26.314)
It's challenging. It's challenging. It's a, it's a good growth thing. You know, you, you'll learn, uh, as a group and then, then in our, it's all about the instructor, you got to find the right instructor, the right school, you know, it's like a counselor or something. Yeah. You know, the first one doesn't always fit. Keep trying. Keep trying.

Yael (12:42.654)
Yes, yes, that's right, they will.

Jennifer Hayes (12:48.766)
I love that. How do you, so I mean, other outside of like, literally sitting in meditation with two young boys, which is impossible. Do you weave your, right. Well, I think it's impossible for most people. I've been successful in short snippets meditating with children, but like it's, you gotta give them something to do. It can't just be a silent meditation. It's gotta be kind of a guided meditation.

Papa Rick (12:51.694)
Thanks for watching!

Yael (13:01.730)
Yeah. For me.

Jennifer Hayes (13:19.058)
Um, but how, how does your mindfulness practice weave into your parenting? What are some of the things that, um, that are like your big, you and, and your partners, like big values for, um, for raising kids and how to address things like big emotions and thought processes. And when things like when he quit karate, what was that conversation like, you know?

Yael (13:19.213)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (13:29.102)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yael (13:47.654)
Yeah, yeah. And so this is really like a big place of growth and learning. I mean, when you talk about where my practice is, like it's much more than taking a meditation practice and pasting it on my life as a mother. That's not how it is. It's much more like these explosions of...

Jennifer Hayes (14:06.142)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yael (14:12.678)
difficult, complicated things are happening in as a mother. And I'm like, okay, this is the site of my practice right now. Figuring this out is like all of the practice. So, for me, for instance, we have a son that is, he's not the karate one because he refused to even try karate. He's the younger one and he is a big feeler, big, big, big, very.

Jennifer Hayes (14:17.114)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (14:20.311)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (14:21.641)
Hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (14:33.621)
Ugh.

Jennifer Hayes (14:39.617)
Mm-hmm.

Yael (14:40.442)
kind of super sensitive to the world. And thankfully, seems to be kind of learning self-regulation tools just by virtue of growing up. But even like one year ago, maybe even eight months ago, he would just have these epic, epic meltdowns and very rigid and didn't like when things were changed on him.

Papa Rick (15:02.509)
aww

Yael (15:07.758)
and it would be like explosive and very jarring and hard for the whole family. And I had to like, and we did this sort of with the help of coaches and some of the teachers at his school, we were like, what do we do? And their advice to us really came back to stuff that has been helpful for me in my own meditation practice, which is, can you sit in the middle of the storm of that total crazy tantra meltdown?

Jennifer Hayes (15:14.569)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (15:22.850)
Hmm.

Yael (15:38.826)
and not run away and not need to stop it. Just be able to be like, like I had a coach that said, like imagine it's kind of like a plumb line that you're dropping deep, deep, deep into the earth. To be able to be there like no matter what and just let the storm come through. Exactly. And...

Jennifer Hayes (15:41.458)
Yeah. Yeah.

Papa Rick (15:43.982)
Hmm?

Jennifer Hayes (15:51.807)
Yes.

Jennifer Hayes (15:55.766)
You're the tree. You're the tree in the wind. Yeah.

Papa Rick (16:00.318)
Reminds me of the term grounding. You know, you're getting attached to something steady.

Yael (16:07.450)
Yes, yes, exactly. And it doesn't mean like you're giving him what he wants, and it doesn't mean that you have to shut his thing down. It's just to do this loving presence in the middle of it. And so it's that that was huge. And it was like a real place of practice. Like I was like, here we buckle up. We're here. And another part of that has been as part of those, like withstanding the tantrums. Another thing I learned.

Jennifer Hayes (16:17.162)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (16:21.014)
really.

Jennifer Hayes (16:29.194)
Yes.

Yael (16:37.714)
was to kind of look him in the eye and be like, look at me, when he was kind of flailing. Like, it really looks like a scared animal when this is happening, total dysregulation. And I say things like, look at me, and when he finds my eyes, like, eventually. And then I was like, this is really hard, but we're going to get it together. We're going to get it together. And so it's like validating. I didn't make this up. This came from like Dr. Becky or whatever.

Jennifer Hayes (16:43.757)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (16:46.282)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (16:53.517)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (16:56.094)
Yes. Yes. Ah.

Papa Rick (16:58.466)
A little reassurance, yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (17:04.622)
I'm gonna bring you on as a parent coach. Yes. Who did you talk to? Because I don't hear this from anybody. Nobody has these two things, like sitting in the storm. So without having to fix it or run away from it, just be with the storm of your child's emotions. And then the second step and skill in that is validating the experience. This is really hard and you're not alone.

Yael (17:07.722)
Yeah, it's not for me, but...

Yael (17:18.349)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (17:33.610)
or we're in this together. Like those two things, if anyone takes anything from this podcast ever, I don't care what the last episode say, I don't care what future episodes say, if you can take those two skills to your children right now, you will change the course of their life.

Yael (17:33.807)
right.

Yael (17:40.674)
hehehe

Papa Rick (17:52.842)
Those are kind of pillars. That's cool that you, that you, you, you know, you had some of this and you, and then you figured out how to apply applied mindfulness, you know, you figured out how to apply it we've, we've talked before on the podcast about, yeah, parenting is dynamic and you know, things change and it's going by so fast. You don't have time to sit and think and go check the book for what you read last month, you know,

Yael (18:04.462)
See you.

Papa Rick (18:20.638)
It's very, very immersive and interactive. And to be able to take, take this skill, this mindfulness practice and, and use it and apply it in, uh, in, oh gosh, I'm thinking of kid tantrums, how stressful that is, that's just, that's, that's just, that's just marvelous, you know, that's really great.

Yael (18:36.076)
We have.

Yael (18:41.210)
Thank you. I mean, it's kind of like similar to how I started meditating. It's like in desperation, like we tried everything. And then, all right, here we go. But it's teaching me so much about myself, even like, and I say that for, can I do that for myself? Can I hold my own feelings with that, with compassion and, you know, with like, yeah.

Papa Rick (18:50.060)
That's right.

Papa Rick (18:53.166)
That's...

Papa Rick (18:57.235)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (19:02.411)
Yes.

Papa Rick (19:05.538)
That's the test, isn't it? You know, that's the modeling it. Am I talking about it or this skill or am I modeling it? Am I embodying it is the word in the notes here I saw. Do I embody this for my children to watch? Yeah, no, I decided I better fess up to that because I knew I'd get a question. Where'd you get that word? I just read your notes a couple of minutes ago. Sorry, I stole your word. That was a good word.

Jennifer Hayes (19:19.918)
Oh man, I thought that was just a coincidence. I was like, ah, that's one of her words.

Yael (19:28.346)
I'm sorry.

Yael (19:35.525)
No, that's right. That's exactly what it's about.

Papa Rick (19:38.390)
But that's, yeah, yeah, that's hard and under fire, you know, you're in the middle of it and to bring it to somebody else, you know, yay, good parenting skills, getting out of your own head, not reacting, not fixing, rescuing and protecting. Yeah, outstanding.

Yael (19:54.050)
Mmm. Mmm.

Yael (19:57.746)
And it just, you know, it takes so much practice. And it's funny because this child is definitely like more just classically challenging than our other one. But the other one's emotions are so much more of a trigger for me because he is more like me. Like I have been very taught to be very compliant. Like I'm not as, so I probably wouldn't.

Jennifer Hayes (20:08.136)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (20:08.136)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (20:17.070)
Hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (20:17.226)
Mmm.

Yael (20:27.610)
have the space to be this like wild thing that my younger one is, but the older one has like anxieties and fears and like nightmares and he's just kind of like has all that stuff that I see in myself and that's much harder in my experience. Yeah.

Papa Rick (20:38.749)
Uh-huh.

Papa Rick (20:44.618)
Yeah. Yeah. How to reassure. And it, your parenting is tough. It would be nice if all children were exactly alike. You know, it's not, it doesn't never happens that way. You know.

Jennifer Hayes (20:44.662)
Really? Wha- Yeah.

Yael (20:56.522)
Right. And like each one needs such different things and triggers different things. And that's what I mean. It's like it's all back like a mirror on yourself of like where do you need to accept.

Jennifer Hayes (21:07.243)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (21:07.870)
It is. It is. So the one with anxiety and stuff, how do you...

Jennifer Hayes (21:11.567)
I think that's why they... That's okay, go ahead.

Papa Rick (21:16.106)
How do you, so how does it different with the, you know, the more reactive one versus the quieter anxious one? How do you deal with the quiet anxious one?

Yael (21:27.446)
Yeah, so yeah, just like even thinking about it, it's so much harder for me, but how I'm learning to deal with it is trying to, so my first instinct when he comes to me with like one of these like, I'm so scared, I'm so scared, like there's so many things to be scared of, or like whatever he's scared of, like monsters for everyone. My first instinct is to be like, there's nothing to be scared of, you're safe, you're fine. Like in other words, shut it down, because it's triggering to me.

Papa Rick (21:45.142)
Yeah, sure.

Jennifer Hayes (21:50.986)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Papa Rick (21:53.175)
Yeah.

Yael (21:55.738)
And so I have to watch myself and be like, okay, you don't have to shut this down. And to be able, just like with my other son, like to validate not that there's something to be scared of, but that he feels scared and that it is like a human thing to feel. And so I have to be much more aware of that desire to like get rid of it or like you said, like to solve it or fix it. And I'm like, okay.

Papa Rick (22:09.762)
That he's scared, yes.

Jennifer Hayes (22:12.950)
Yes.

Jennifer Hayes (22:20.063)
Yeah.

Yael (22:22.362)
You know, when I was younger and even now sometimes, I also was really scared of monsters. You know, like I'm trying to kind of give him that context so he doesn't feel bad about being scared. And he loved when I was younger stories, very, very helpful. And I think like, yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (22:30.525)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (22:33.386)
Yes.

Jennifer Hayes (22:37.218)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (22:39.647)
Ah, okay.

Jennifer Hayes (22:41.646)
Seeing that in someone else, especially someone they love and trust, like a parent figure, is so healing to some, or so reassuring to like, okay, I'm not crazy. This is normal. Yeah. Sorry, continue.

Yael (22:55.491)
Yeah.

Yael (22:58.866)
Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. About anything, like they love to hear it. And then I think, you know, there's all these kinds of techniques that I've tried about, like, I heard that you're supposed to say like, okay, this is worry voice, can we be quiet down worry voice? Or like, you know, somehow differentiate it, unblend it from them, themselves, their self-conception.

Jennifer Hayes (23:22.378)
Yes.

Yael (23:26.494)
But honestly, I'm not so good. I'm still trying to figure this out because I'm trying to figure it out for myself and it's just not easy for me.

Jennifer Hayes (23:30.889)
Oh yeah.

Papa Rick (23:31.135)
Hahaha

Jennifer Hayes (23:40.146)
that I think that most parents are probably sitting there going, yeah, like it's hard, it's so hard. And I think that part of the gift, like I think we get the children that we get because we are meant to serve them and their life path and their karma and their journey, like and where they're meant to be and who they're meant to be in some way. They are also here to heal us, to help us, to...

Like at whatever age you have children, like you're going to get the children that are here to heal whatever you haven't healed yet. And so every, all those little, all those triggers, all the anger, frustration, anxiety, and overwhelm, all those big feelings that you have with your kids, that is not an indicator that your children are doing something wrong. That is an indicator that they are pushing

Yael (24:30.122)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (24:38.570)
that button because there is something in you you have not dealt with. And it's

Yael (24:43.823)
That's right. That's right.

Papa Rick (24:44.842)
Yeah, children, children really can't do anything wrong. They're just being children. They're testing the fences, you know, being kids.

Jennifer Hayes (24:48.490)
Right, they're just do, yeah, yeah.

Yael (24:53.514)
My husband is a psychologist and he learned in one of his trainings where he was like, whatever is in the parent's basement is in the child's front yard.

Jennifer Hayes (25:05.989)
Mm. Ah, I love that.

Papa Rick (25:06.730)
Oh, oh, I got to write that one down. I love it.

Yael (25:11.085)
I think about it all the time. It's definitely the case when I think about my own kids.

Jennifer Hayes (25:14.338)
That might be the title of this podcast. That might be the title of this episode.

Papa Rick (25:19.230)
Wow. I hope I get to come back, reincarnate, and I'm either going to be a lawyer or a psychologist the next time. Learn stuff like that. That is great.

Yael (25:26.393)
Hahaha

Yael (25:29.818)
Isn't that, isn't that true? And it just, it's showing up like exactly like you said, Jennifer, like this is what is yours to work through.

Jennifer Hayes (25:41.674)
Yeah, and the trauma that we're trying to prevent, the emotional trauma that we're trying to prevent here with everything, with the podcast, with my company, is that people will cling to what's in their basement. They will cling to their pain. They will cling to their trauma. They will cling to their right. I actually had this thought the other day, and it's a hazing metaphor from

Jennifer Hayes (26:12.622)
college, like when you go into a, not so much with sororities, but definitely in fraternities, there's, there's still hazing. Anyone who thinks there isn't is fooling themselves. They get hazed. It's awful. They make them do really terrible things. At least the campus that I was on. So hazing where you have to prove incoming freshmen or sophomores have to prove themselves worthy of getting into the fraternity.

Yael (26:23.775)
It's done.

Jennifer Hayes (26:41.550)
I mean, and this could even translate into gang culture, where they have to do something to get into the gang. And it's usually like a horrendous crime of some kind. But the thought that I had to prove their loyalty, right? And so the thought that I had was when we parent through our trauma, when we parent through our pain, we are literally doing the same thing to our children that our parents did to us. And the same thing that their parents did to them.

Papa Rick (26:50.550)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (27:09.874)
the same thing that their parents and it's literally a hazing of initiation into adult into adulthood of like, you have to achieve this, you have to be like this, you have to behave like this, you have to hide your emotions, you have to get straight A's, you have to like check these boxes in order to be worthy of being an adult or of being in our family or of being worthy of love either from us or from your friends or from a partner in the future.

Papa Rick (27:29.178)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (27:37.928)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (27:38.982)
It's literally hazing. We haze our children. And it's such a harsh word, but...

Yael (27:44.846)
them.

Papa Rick (27:47.927)
It's a set of expectations. It's not unconditional love like we talk about. It's you have to behave, here's how you have to behave to be part of this tribe, this part of this social unit. Gangs will do that just so they have something, it's a matter of control too. Because then they have pictures of you stealing a car or killing someone or.

Yael (27:52.366)
Uh-huh.

Jennifer Hayes (27:52.417)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (28:11.071)
Yeah, collateral.

Papa Rick (28:11.210)
You know, something heinous. And so it's like, you are ours now, baby, you know, and doing that to kids with performance, I had never thought of it that way before, but absolutely.

Jennifer Hayes (28:16.160)
Yeah.

Yael (28:21.890)
Mmm, yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (28:23.050)
It came to me the other day when I was doing the dishes.

Papa Rick (28:26.742)
came to me in the soapy water.

Yael (28:28.620)
Hehehehe

Yael (28:32.342)
And I guess the question is like, if that's the case, you know, why, what, how, what is the feeling of breaking that kind of generational trauma? What do you lose by interrupting that? Because I think, yeah, I think so too. And maybe some loyalty, like some connection that you had to your parents.

Jennifer Hayes (28:48.942)
comfort.

Papa Rick (28:50.751)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (28:55.598)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yael (28:59.546)
And it's kind of disloyal in some ways to kind of break those habits or patterns in families.

Papa Rick (29:06.814)
Yep. Yep. Generational curses.

Jennifer Hayes (29:07.650)
especially if you're around.

Jennifer Hayes (29:11.530)
especially if you're around extended family who, and I'm not even talking about like deep abuse where you've like completely separated from your nuclear family of when you were growing up. Like it's as simple as my mom isn't speaking to my, or saying something to my child that is against my parenting value.

Jennifer Hayes (29:40.782)
the need for me to play referee, to have to call my mom out or, you know, and it doesn't have to be mean. It can just be kindly like, we really don't wanna talk about food like that with, and this is a, I don't have children yet. This is not a real example. I'm just saying. We don't wanna talk to our kids like that about food because it can cause shame around food and blah, blah, blah. And like, I understand you're trying to get her to eat. Thank you for trying to help.

Yael (29:56.288)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (29:58.520)
A little disclaimer, yeah.

Papa Rick (30:06.338)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (30:09.206)
We would prefer if in this situation, you framed it like this and then give her an example. That can also feel, especially if you grew up in a house where like you don't talk back to your parents, you don't argue with your parents, like parents are always right, children are always wrong. That can be wildly triggering to try and like.

Jennifer Hayes (30:32.031)
that disloyal feeling of I'm going to tell my mom or my dad, like, don't talk to my kid that way.

Yael (30:42.042)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (30:43.074)
Here's how I would rather you said that to my child. Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (30:43.554)
But that is...

Jennifer Hayes (30:47.318)
But that is the role that you have graduated into when you become a parent is you are now these, like you are responsible for what happens to your child or for how your child is treated. And obviously you can't follow them around everywhere and go to school with them or whatever. But when you are shaping the way that the people that child is constantly exposed to are speaking and teaching them.

Like you're there as a referee, you're there to guide people on how you are raising that child.

Yael (31:25.218)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (31:25.250)
Yep. Yep. Doing more guiding. That's, that's really interesting. The, the, you know, we sometimes we're not even aware of what's in our basement. The stuff you get from your parents, right? You know, it's in your parents' basement is, is slowly being transferred to your child's basement. Right. And it may be something big like a beating or, you know, some horrible witnessing event. And

Jennifer Hayes (31:35.253)
Mm-hmm.

Yael (31:43.894)
Thanks.

Papa Rick (31:53.294)
Uh, you know, or it can be something very small, like you're talking about, like just a way of speaking, uh, you know, racism, a way of speaking about other people or groups or very small, you know, it goes, it can go down. I can imagine that that goes down, communicating attitudes and, and stuffing stuff in your kid's basement goes down to very, uh, very innocuous.

I feel stupid complaining about this, but here's how I want you to say this. And the mindfulness would be so useful in, you know, keeping your cool, retraining the grandparents to parent different, or at least grandparent different, as well as manage your own and manage your kids. And, oh my God, the whole mindfulness thing and, uh, parenting, I'm just, it's kind of opening things up for me here. It's, it's so applicable to everything. Wow.

Jennifer Hayes (32:25.940)
Yeah.

Yael (32:47.937)
Yeah.

Yael (32:50.566)
Yeah, just raising that awareness, I think, is huge. And I think that, like, I'm kind of, like, thinking about it for myself, that those referee examples are real and very, very uncomfortable. But I actually think it's worse. I think it's more painful when you're the bad guy. Like, you're repeating it. Even if it's not your values, it's not what you believe in, but you're just like...

Papa Rick (33:01.379)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (33:01.751)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (33:04.991)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (33:12.482)
Mmm.

Papa Rick (33:13.194)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (33:16.127)
Yes.

Yael (33:17.443)
I'm finding myself completely doing this thing that caused me so much pain, and that's like the really hard one.

Jennifer Hayes (33:24.358)
Yes. The oh my, it's like your parents' voice is coming out of your mouth.

Papa Rick (33:26.754)
That's the growth thing. The pain.

Papa Rick (33:31.150)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Yael (33:31.864)
That's exactly it. Exactly. Exactly.

Jennifer Hayes (33:32.738)
You're like, who was that? Ha ha ha ha ha.

Papa Rick (33:38.550)
Hey honey, close the basement door. My basement's getting out.

Yael (33:41.838)
It's not going. Yes, it happened the other day. My son was just taking a long time in the shower, and I was tired. I just wanted him to get to bed. And I was also cranky, and I was like, get out of the shower. Like, no more energy, like no sugar. And he goes to me, and he starts crying. This is like he sends me to the hospital. And he goes like,

Jennifer Hayes (33:42.273)
Right.

Jennifer Hayes (34:01.646)
Thanks for watching!

Papa Rick (34:01.646)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Jennifer Hayes (34:08.389)
Oh

Papa Rick (34:10.189)
Sure.

Yael (34:11.134)
He said I was a bad boy. And I was like, never said you were bad. That's like against everything I believe in. But he's here in my throne. Like, I'm annoyed with you right now. I'm like, get out. And it's just so painful. Like, it crushed me that he was like, why did you say I was a bad boy? And I was like, you're not, I'm just tired.

Papa Rick (34:13.772)
Eww!

Jennifer Hayes (34:18.281)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (34:19.341)
Hahaha!

Jennifer Hayes (34:23.874)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (34:35.838)
Well, and we saw, so we are kind of doing that when we snap at somebody, we're not using the words bad boy, but we are communicating that, you know, whatever bad boy means, you know, we are unhappy with you or what your behavior or whatever. So that's, I mean, that's actually really perceptive for him to make that jump there.

Jennifer Hayes (34:35.888)
Oh...

Yael (34:40.990)
Yeah.

Yael (34:47.285)
Thank you.

Yael (34:50.086)
Thank you.

Yael (34:56.726)
I know it's heartbreaking, but very present. It's very, very smart.

Papa Rick (35:00.300)
And every parent does it, you know, you can't, I mean, life, life happens. And sometimes there's just not time for, you know, it's like, I need something to happen now.

Yael (35:09.774)
Yeah, another thing my husband has been... Oh, go on.

Jennifer Hayes (35:10.658)
Well, that's one of those.

Jennifer Hayes (35:15.338)
I was just going to say that's one of those moments though in parenting. It's going to happen. You're going to get tired. Those moments are going to happen. The important thing there is that you did then say, I'm so tired. You're not a bad boy. I'm sure you even said, I'm sorry I spoke to you that way. I needed you to get out of the shower and I was frustrated.

Papa Rick (35:24.843)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (35:44.266)
It's not okay for me to talk to you like that, right? So that when they're in relationships in the future, and you're allowed to be annoyed too. That's the other thing is mama is annoyed. Mama is so tired. But I shouldn't have acted like that towards you. Like my feeling, like you're allowed to have your feelings, but you're not allowed to act however you wanna act. And by doing that with him, he's gonna be able to do that in the future if he does something.

or he messes up towards something with you. Like the first time, and it may have already happened, but that your kid looks at you and goes, I'm sorry, I'm so tired, I didn't mean that. Or like whatever, oh my God, the level of like crying and like sad that you were like, oh my God, I went against my own values, in that moment will be reflected in like the heart spring, overflowing joy of when your child reflects back to you the ability to.

Papa Rick (36:14.466)
That's right. He learns.

Papa Rick (36:26.158)
Mwah.

Yael (36:34.088)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (36:42.303)
apologize and take accountability.

Yael (36:44.538)
Hmm, yeah, yeah. I was gonna say along those same lines, like my husband is very much into, because he tends to be the more reactive, per-parent, he's also so much better at making like repair, like what you're describing. And he, so he's often in the case of being like, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have yelled. And he still like carries...

Jennifer Hayes (37:03.407)
Mmm.

Papa Rick (37:04.067)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (37:13.003)
Wow.

Yael (37:13.262)
healing about it, but that repair is so like I can see how healing it is for kids. And I remember when I was a kid, I remember the instances where my parents apologized to me, like with crisp detail. Like I remember it so clearly because it was very meaningful to me. Um, so I think that's right. I think that's part of this process is modeling that too.

Papa Rick (37:21.422)
Sure.

Jennifer Hayes (37:30.071)
Yep.

Papa Rick (37:41.526)
Yeah. Yeah. Any kind of discipline, you know, is better with some kind of restitution, you know, making up and, and some, and certainly taking accountability, you know, for your own actions and saying, yeah, I, I realized letting, I guess that is that a form of validation? You know, I realize I screwed up. I shouldn't have yelled at you. Here's why. Mea culpa, you know, yeah, that's all good. And seeing that in little kids, that's great. Wow.

Yael (37:46.776)
Yes.

Jennifer Hayes (37:59.850)
to accountability.

Yael (38:04.359)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yael (38:09.019)
Mm. Yeah.

Papa Rick (38:11.838)
Mindfulness is my so what is mindfulness mindful? I mean being Being self aware Thoughtfulness I'm here. I have all kinds of words bouncing around when we talk about Mindfulness and then it's application here. I'm well, you know, you could call Mindfulness all it could go by all kinds of names in these different situations

Yael (38:28.843)
Yeah.

Yael (38:35.574)
Yes, I think that's right. I think the classical from the Buddhist tradition, what the word mindfulness is, it's a flooding of awareness of what you're doing when you're doing it. So that's why meditation is a form of mindfulness because you're trying to be present and to bring awareness into that moment. But it could also be the things exactly what we're talking about. Like, are you bringing awareness?

Papa Rick (38:50.502)
Okay.

Yael (39:05.042)
into your activity or are you just kind of on autopilot? Whatever it is.

Papa Rick (39:09.815)
Yeah!

Jennifer Hayes (39:10.678)
Yeah. I love.

Papa Rick (39:12.670)
I like that. That's very, that's very, uh, that's very revealing to me. I think of mindfulness as like you were saying, you know, okay, I have a, an hour a day. I go meditate. I burn incense. I, whatever gets me in the frame of, into flow, get it, gets me into the frame of mind and there's real life, you know, that doesn't always happen. But, uh, applying that to something I can do in karate, you know, there were people who would do, who would compete and would do their kata.

Papa Rick (39:42.078)
very smoothly, kind of like Tai Chi, not like I'm going to break your arm. And I remember talking to the instructor going, I think I could take her. What's, what am I missing here? You know, it was just black. There was this well-respected black belt lady doing this. And he looked at me and shook it. He said, she would eat you alive. She's done. And explained to me that she was, she was doing a, doing it meditatively, you know, and that that was a style.

Yael (39:46.777)
Yes.

Yael (40:01.966)
Hahahaha

Yael (40:07.688)
Yes.

Papa Rick (40:09.570)
that I was not acquainted with yet. You know, it was kind of a pat on the head. It's like, yeah, don't fool yourself, buddy. She's doing it, she's past breaking bones and she's doing it meditatively now, you know? And so, you know, which, you know, you can just do anything meditatively or mindfully. That's very, that's very revealing to me. Thank you.

Jennifer Hayes (40:14.210)
Like, aww.

Yael (40:15.196)
Yeah.

Yael (40:31.050)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And when we do that, it's like, you know, you just, like life comes more into relief. Like you're in your life rather than thinking about it or alienated from it or, you know, worrying about something in the future, the past. It's just, you're in it.

Papa Rick (40:34.815)
to current activity.

Jennifer Hayes (40:35.276)
I love.

Jennifer Hayes (40:42.082)
Mmm.

Jennifer Hayes (40:55.114)
Yeah, you're experiencing it. Something I remember from when I was younger is that there would be a lot of big experiences that it was like, you just gotta get ready, get it together and do the thing and then I would reflect later. So it was like I would experience it after the fact in my memory instead of actually being fully present.

Papa Rick (41:18.270)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yael (41:18.872)
Mmm.

Jennifer Hayes (41:24.062)
in the moment when it was happening. And it would happen with like good things, but it would also happen with really, bless you, it would happen with really hard things. Like I was 17 when I got cancer. And I went through and everyone was, everyone always would make comments about like, like, Oh, you're just such like a positive, like

Papa Rick (41:25.994)
Yeah, you see her to focus later. Yeah. Hmm.

Yael (41:29.826)
Yes.

Jennifer Hayes (41:50.862)
positive light through this and you're just so strong and this and that and the other. Mostly it was people who weren't seeing the dark hard stuff, the moments, the ugly moments. But it was also, and I took it as encouragement and a compliment, but then about six months later after it was all over and I had gone off to college, about six months later I came

Papa Rick (42:05.340)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. See you on the outside.

Jennifer Hayes (42:20.878)
fucking breakdown. Like, and it was, I had hosted a party in my basement, um, unbeknownst to my mother and, um, which was my, that was my thing. That was my thing back then. Um, and I mean, she knows now, but, um, and I was drinking and, um, and it went up to the, to go to the bathroom and just.

Yael (42:22.696)
Mmm.

Papa Rick (42:35.155)
Don't listen now Sue.

Jennifer Hayes (42:51.370)
It was like the reality of cancer can kill you hit me. I literally went upstairs to pee. And I was like with my friend, I was like just completely not thinking about that. Went upstairs to pee and I looked in the mirror. This is what triggered it. And I had taken my wig off and gotten my first pixie haircut after my hair started to grow back. And I looked in the mirror at my new haircut, drunk.

Yael (42:57.742)
Hmm. Hmm.

Papa Rick (43:16.032)
Aww.

Yael (43:19.566)
Mmm.

Jennifer Hayes (43:19.934)
And it was this like, it was like this realization of what I had actually gone through. And I lost my mind. Now, some of that is like, you were 17, you had other things going on, like, but I literally, it was like four or five months of treatment and I was just like, like life is just, we're just gonna keep going. We're just gonna integrate this. We're just gonna keep trying to keep things as normal as possible and...

Papa Rick (43:26.499)
Yeah.

Yael (43:26.605)
Mm.

Jennifer Hayes (43:49.462)
and just like, yeah, you have to go for the weekend for chemotherapy and then we're gonna be sick for a while and then we're gonna go back to school and like keep up on your homework and this. And all I could think about was my hair's falling out and I needed to maintain my GPA to be valedictorian. That's all I was thinking about. I wasn't thinking about that. I wasn't processing the fact that like cancer could kill you.

Yael (44:03.469)
Mmm.

Yael (44:11.362)
You know, that sounds very wise to me, like something in your body knew that that was not the time or the place to be processing that right now. Like you needed resources to get through that. And I think that sounds like incredibly like that your body was doing something really wise by not letting that come to the surface at that time.

Jennifer Hayes (44:20.883)
Mmm.

Papa Rick (44:22.562)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (44:25.801)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (44:35.216)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (44:35.778)
Something to focus on besides the fear and the uncertainty and all that of, you know, something to make the one foot in front of the other day by day, this should pass. Yeah, how does that relate to mindfulness? I mean, you're in the middle of it. You're plotting through it, getting through the stuff, keeping the fear at bay. It's not bliss. It's not nirvana, you know, but that sounds kind of like a form of...

Jennifer Hayes (44:53.837)
Yeah.

Yael (45:02.446)
Right.

Papa Rick (45:05.338)
another form, another word for mindfulness too, being in the moment, bringing awareness into your current activity.

Yael (45:15.758)
That's right. I think it's similar to what I said before about how there's a, I think the ultimate purpose of mindfulness or this path of awakening is about being with what is. And in this case, and this happens all the time with my clients and with people that I'm working with, where they're like,

Jennifer Hayes (45:34.862)
Mmm.

Papa Rick (45:41.814)
Mm-hmm.

Yael (45:42.718)
I feel I'm going through something or at this point, like I'm trying to feel my feelings, but I feel really numb or I feel really disconnected. And that too, like, can you accept that too? Can you be like open to being shut off? And then even that you can like hold with love and with care that this is what your system needs right now. And if you can really like give that the time and love and space, then your numbness will eventually

Papa Rick (45:49.622)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (45:55.979)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (45:58.857)
Okay.

Yael (46:12.726)
as it did for you, it will eventually crumble and you will have the fourth, the feelings, cause we all do, but your body knew that it was a safer time after it was, it sounds like it was done, just something.

Jennifer Hayes (46:18.538)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (46:24.254)
Yeah. Yeah.

Papa Rick (46:27.706)
I've got the room to think about it and appreciate it now. Hmm. That almost sounds like, I'm sorry, Jen, I'm doing too much talking this time, like the witness. We talk about in the middle of your emotions, right? It sounds like there's a very, there's two pieces of you, of your mind, going at the same time. There's the part that's being mindful, which I guess is the rational part or something.

Yael (46:31.564)
8.

Papa Rick (46:56.802)
You know, so you're kind of looking at your emotions and fear and whatever you're going through, depression, sadness, and using the mindfulness, using the mind to kind of deal with the emotions. I never heard it put quite so much like there were really two pieces of your brain going on there before.

Yael (47:22.810)
and sometimes more than two, and the holding of it all, best way I've heard it described for me, and it's a really helpful way to describe it for me, is imagining that you can touch into, that you are a part of the bottom of an ocean. And when you can kind of touch that part of any moment, then you're also the whole top of the ocean.

Papa Rick (47:25.503)
Hahaha!

Papa Rick (47:41.453)
Okay.

Yael (47:49.998)
like where there's waves and there's ups and there's downs. But if you can access that big vastness, that's deep, deep, deep, that is not troubled by what's happening up top, you know, that can hold all of it, then you're, you know, like, that's what real presence feels like. And it's not just like small you, it's like the you that is connected to the whole world.

Papa Rick (48:01.014)
Alright.

Papa Rick (48:15.042)
kind of a continuum. It's not, it's not two parts of your brain. It's, it's an infinite. It's great. Shades of gray, shades of depth.

Jennifer Hayes (48:15.726)
I love that.

Yael (48:21.402)
infinite. So that's right.

Papa Rick (48:26.786)
Hmm.

Jennifer Hayes (48:28.110)
It's almost like a slowing or a stilling of your mind. And yeah, like, and you're, and just, I'm having so many thoughts at once right now. It just feels very, the bottom of the ocean feels very still and quiet and peaceful and you don't have to do anything. You can just observe and hold.

Yael (48:42.155)
I'm going to go to bed. Bye.

Papa Rick (48:42.827)
Yeah, yeah.

Yael (48:47.843)
Yes.

Yael (48:55.418)
Exactly. And I think that's where a lot of people when they come to me and they're like, I tried meditating but I couldn't quiet my mind or I couldn't stop thinking. And if you think about it like the ocean, it's like the ocean's not trying to stop the waves up at the top. You don't have to stop your mind from thinking. You just have to unblend yourself from the thoughts and get down deep into that, the depths. And then whatever happens up there happens up there. It doesn't matter.

Papa Rick (49:05.176)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (49:09.314)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (49:11.927)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (49:17.003)
Yes.

Yael (49:24.426)
You know, you're like able to hold all of it.

Jennifer Hayes (49:24.428)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (49:28.598)
I love that. A little while ago, you said the phrase, mothering is the practice. Parenting is the practice right now in this season of life. And I wanted to circle back to that because I think that that can be really helpful for our audience to reframe

Jennifer Hayes (49:56.534)
the who I was before I was a parent and the who I am after. Like you're not meant to be the same person, first of all. You have, a parent has been born. Just as children are born, you are now a different version of yourself in this new season of life. And some of these practices, these mindfulness, meditation, or like whatever modalities resonate with you,

Jennifer Hayes (50:27.894)
Like let the practice be your parenting. Like sink into that. And like you said, like accept what is. Accept what is, lower your resistance to it and let that be the practice. And in any given moment, like the practice is, are you the tree in the wind for, and your children are the wind, by the way. Can you be the tree in the wind?

Yael (50:37.402)
with him.

Yael (50:54.119)
So, thank you for being with us.

Papa Rick (50:55.886)
Hahaha

Jennifer Hayes (50:57.674)
Like you are the adult, you have the experience, and you are the capable one in the house. Can you take that role? Can you step into that? And that doesn't mean you're perfect or any, you know.

Papa Rick (51:10.738)
Ideally, what about households where the parent is the wind?

Yael (51:13.602)
Well, I think that's a good-

Yael (51:17.414)
Yeah, that's a whole nother thing too.

Papa Rick (51:19.462)
Right. And the child hasn't learned to, to sink deep roots, you know, to get it. Yeah, there's, there's just all kinds of twists and turns to that. Don't be the wind.

Yael (51:28.302)
Yeah. I also want to add one more thing though, which is that I think that in these situations where you are the tree, sometimes you also need to be like the tree for yourself. It's almost like even if you have a child, there's another baby in the room with you that you have to equally take

Jennifer Hayes (51:45.848)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (51:47.577)
Mm.

Jennifer Hayes (51:50.840)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (51:54.146)
Oh man.

Jennifer Hayes (51:56.792)
Yes.

Yael (51:58.402)
So both of those are true. Like don't do that to your kid, but the only way you can sometimes not do that to your kid is if you're also taking care of the other kid, the inner kid.

Jennifer Hayes (51:59.882)
Yes.

Papa Rick (52:08.422)
I suddenly want to take some mushrooms or some LSD. This is starting to sound to me kind of like the, you take these drugs and suddenly I am the universe, you know, that all encompassing consciousness awareness thing this is starting to touch on for me. That's weird. That's great. That'd be good to do it without the drugs, you know, be able to do it driving down the road too.

Jennifer Hayes (52:09.148)
Yes.

Yael (52:19.757)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (52:20.363)
Yeah.

Yael (52:26.058)
Okay, I think you're right.

Jennifer Hayes (52:28.299)
I love it.

Yael (52:33.961)
Yeah, yeah, or like in a tantrum.

Papa Rick (52:36.354)
Huh. Lots to think about out there, parents. I wish, again, I wish I'd have known this like 50 years ago.

Jennifer Hayes (52:38.378)
All right, y'all.

Jennifer Hayes (52:44.490)
Right? Yeah, you were meant to.

Yael (52:45.191)
It's amazing that you're here now.

Papa Rick (52:47.986)
I wasn't born in New York. I should have been in New York.

Yael (52:51.561)
Hehehehe

Jennifer Hayes (52:53.950)
We, Yael, I know that you have to get going and is there anything that we haven't touched on that is super important to yourself or your business or any final words that you wanna share?

Yael (53:18.986)
No, I think I've enjoyed this so much and I really think the name of the game is just kind of compassion for ourselves as parents and for the children we were and carrying around still and And I think like if this practice is interesting to you and you want to learn more about it I would love you to reach out to me and and Join my programs

Jennifer Hayes (53:32.951)
Yeah.

Jennifer Hayes (53:43.678)
Yeah. Tell everybody where they can find you.

Papa Rick (53:46.210)
Get all that stuff in the description. Yeah, yeah.

Yael (53:49.098)
Yeah, you can find me at yaelshy.com or in the show notes here and or on Instagram at yaelshy number one. The number one.

Jennifer Hayes (54:01.442)
Awesome, beautiful. And I just want to remind everybody, so all of Yael's information will be in the show notes as well. And we do have our Patreon live. We have the $5, $7, and $11 tiers.

Papa Rick (54:03.872)
Excellent.

Jennifer Hayes (54:26.634)
The $5 tier is a live shout out on the show. The $7 tier, we actually have our first mini episode from last week that we, it's about a 25 minute episode that'll be going into the seven and $11 access area.

Um, and then the upgrade to the $11, I haven't added a third thing yet, but we're, we'll get there. We're going to add some, maybe some live, uh, opportunities where me and dad go live and you guys can ask us questions. So five, seven and $11 tiers for Patreon donations. And you can find Yael in the show notes. You can find me in the show notes, um, whatever kind of help and coaching you are looking for. And um,

Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah. I really appreciate it. It was so much fun. Yeah.

Papa Rick (55:22.297)
Yeah, yeah, thanks, yeah. Great to meet you and great to hear you talk. Best of luck.

Yael (55:27.155)
Thank you too. Thank you. Such a pleasure. Thank you.

Jennifer Hayes (55:31.252)
All right, bye everybody.

Yael (55:33.562)
Bye, thank you.