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Getting well beyond 120% NRR is no accident. It's all about GTM, and we break down a few cases in this episode.
Creators and Guests
What is The Revenue Formula?
This podcast is about scaling tech startups.
Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.
With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.
If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.
[00:00:00] Mikkel: Hey everyone. I'm me complain, and you are listening to the revenue formula. In today's episode, I'm joined by OLA four. Toni is on a break, so that gives us a chance to talk about NRR hacking and how companies achieve insane growth through NRR , enjoy.
[00:00:19] so Toni is out, he decided to go to,
[00:00:22] uh, Egypt.
[00:00:24] Egypt He's in Egypt and he wrote me Sunday night, so the wifi is terrible. I can't even watch Netflix. I was like, that sounds like a great holiday. You were planning to watch Netflix.
[00:00:36] Olafur: He's sitting on the beats. He just didn't wanna do it.
[00:00:38] Mikkel: Yeah, . Exactly.
[00:00:39] Olafur: problems.
[00:00:41] Mikkel: But today I have all four with me, co-founder of Crow Blocks, and I think the Revs nerd as.
[00:00:50] Olafur: well.
[00:00:51] Mikkel: It's funny, we haven't used you that much in our content, but we're gonna change that. This is the start.
[00:00:55] Olafur: Let's see how it goes.
[00:00:56] Mikkel: gonna get more air time and we're gonna talk a bit about a super interesting conversation actually, you and I had around how some companies, they're hacking their N R R to achieve obscene growth.
[00:01:09] Let's call it what it is. Obscene growth.
[00:01:11] Olafur: Yeah, that's right.
[00:01:12] Mikkel: right.
[00:01:13] Olafur: Let's talk about it.
[00:01:14] Mikkel: it. So
[00:01:16] in our hacking is really a term that we kind of came up with just in talking. I don't think it's an established thing, at least I Google that. I couldn't find a single article about it.
[00:01:25] Olafur: No, no. I don't think it's a interesting term by no means, but it's something that I've noticed a new way of upselling that has led to some incredible NRR numbers that historically size has not seen.
[00:01:36] And uh, and yeah, thinking about kind of why is that favorable? Is it truly hacking? Is it actually creating additional revenue or is it just taking a metric and then optimizing the whole company around it? I think it's, uh, just interesting to explore.
[00:01:49] Mikkel: It's so, it's not financial engineering. We're gonna get into, there is a legitimate model about it, uh, behind it. So think about companies like Snowflake, Datadog,
[00:01:58] Olafur: doc.com.
[00:01:59] Mikkel: lot of these companies, they have an an excess of a hundred percent and that is just crazy.
[00:02:04] Olafur: 150 you mean
[00:02:07] Mikkel: Yeah, but it's, it's, it's absolutely intense and you know, you look at a SAS business where you have subscriptions and then that retention rate, it just compounds like crazy and everyone wants it. I mean, I don't think there's anyone who's gonna go, no, I don't wanna have that retention rate. That, that'd be silly. So we're gonna talk about how they should achieve that today. And um, I think you should kind of kick us off a bit with a, with a problem, uh, that a lot of companies face when they have this conversation around what should our retention rate be and how do we go about it?
[00:02:39] Olafur: Yeah, I think, uh, so we obviously work with a lot of different size companies who wanna optimize every single metric in their business. And the one number that everyone is talking about these days is NRR. It's become the new number besides growth and, you know, CAC and the, and the regular terms, NRR is now becoming one of the primary drivers, uh, of what companies are trying.
[00:03:01] optimize. And the, the fact is that NRR today, I think across Alles, roughly, comes to 105% on average. So that's, uh, you know, that's where you're in the, in the normal range. And, and in the last few years, a lot of companies have achieved NRR rates that I have never seen in my SaaS career, which is going to a hundred fifty, a hundred and sixty, a hundred and seventy.
[00:03:24] And you have to question kind of why is that all of a sudden achievable, where it was not achievable five to 10 years ago. And ultimately, is it something that has been engineered and it's just looking at the number, so different lens? Or are they actually achieving a different business model where they are able to organically grow their, their NRR through different means that are actually creating immense value for that business?
[00:03:46] Because at the end of the day, NRR is so favorable to companies because, the cost of a dollar of new business is extremely expensive. We are looking at 16 to 18 CAC payback typically for a normal SaaS company. And when you're then looking at the, you know, upsell dollar, it's typically coming in at the third or a fourth of that cost.
[00:04:04] So if you can achieve an immense NRR, it basically means that as soon as you sign a customer, you have an very cheap way to grow your company into something amazing through kind of a very cheap way, if you will. And, um, and I've been in different businesses that have, uh, obviously all been looking at this number and how do we optimize churn?
[00:04:22] Mikkel: want that, we want
[00:04:24] Olafur: And how do we opt, how to, how do we optimize upsell?
[00:04:27] Mikkel: And
[00:04:28] Olafur: what I've learned throughout the years is that some of these things are kind of fixed. you know, one of the first companies that I worked in, uh, was called Falcon, uh, was, you know, incredibly efficient at getting new dollars in the door, but it had a very limited NRR because the upsell simply just wasn't as high as it could be.
[00:04:46] And the churn was, you know, a little bit on the high end as well because there's always this sort of idea of easy in, easy out. Yeah. If you're able to steal customers from other easily, they're also able to be stolen from you easily. So there's like, there's a natural correlation between those two things.
[00:05:01] But I think kind of when we were thinking about how to, you know, upsell that product better, we were dealing with a traditional SaaS model, which is where 105 NRR is completely acceptable and it's actually good in that sense.
[00:05:14] But the problem is that we found that we simply couldn't find a way to increase the upsell.
[00:05:20] Yeah. Uh, we could potentially, you know, facilitate something on the churn, but the way that that product was being sold was that, you know, it was a full upfront sale. So basically meaning that we were selling to the organization, we were selling for the full need of what the platform could deliver on And we were selling, you know, full upfront contracts, upfront payments, very traditional, but we also sold the whole platform or the whole suite with that. Yeah. So what you're then left with is that the only thing you can upsell on is basically, well, are there more users who could use this tool?
[00:05:53] Are there more people you're gonna be hiring for social media management? Yeah. Uh, and that it, that in itself is, you know, good, but it also means that you have to go in and you have to identify. , a new use case, and you have to find other users who might have utility in it and then sell that again. So there's another sales process involved.
[00:06:10] And sales processes take time and you know, and if you've already sold in the full solution, they probably know who will need it, then what they could use it for. So in that case, we simply just found that we could work our ass off to try to optimize it, but it simply just was. Result of the go-to-market strategy and the pricing strategy and the way that the product was being built, that was a function of what the NRR and the upsell was.
[00:06:34] It wasn't that we hadn't figured out the Snowflake
[00:06:37] Mikkel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How
[00:06:38] Olafur: now we could do 180%. It just isn't that simple. It's actually something that you need to look at end-to-end and then, you know, figure out how are you gonna change your go-to market and your pricing and packaging. And your product so that you actually can have those kind of, uh, r numbers.
[00:06:53] Mikkel: no, I think the most tangible way.
[00:06:54] So we, we've worked there together. It's. Falconer. We used to call it the, the best way of best way we influenced in ours. Let's raise the price again.
[00:07:05] Olafur: Yeah.
[00:07:06] Mikkel: was a, and I mean, that's totally fair. And I think by the way, you can run a totally, you know, well run business and having 105% in our, that's still good.
[00:07:15] I mean, that's still great. Yeah. So, so it's not that that's necessarily bad,
[00:07:19] Olafur: Yeah. No. But there's also the ones that, that do have those incredible NRRs, sometimes what is behind that is a price increase. Yeah. And the problem with that in the long term is that, You are raising a price on a value that the customer has, which inherently means that you've undersold the product to begin with.
[00:07:37] You basically didn't sell the full value of the product, so now you're able to do a price increase, and that inherently will be counted as an upsell or an expansion, so you are now getting a better NRR. You could argue that those dollars were actually left on the table in the sales process. But also the problem with doing that is that you can only do it until you reach the value of the product and then the next price increase after that is gonna lead to higher churn.
[00:08:00] Yeah. So those are not sustainable ways to grow or have a healthy NRR. price increases are, you know, a gap in your value being delivered and the value that was being bought. And then you're catching up to that value. Right? Yeah.
[00:08:12] Mikkel: So I think we should hop into some of the cases cuz you said, Hey, we, you know, churn is kind of fixed based on the model. What some of these companies you and I talked about really great at is not necessarily the churn side. Yeah,
[00:08:27] Olafur: it is always a function of each other. That's kind of how you need to think about it. So when you are going for the full. Sale, let's just call it that. That means that you have to assess what is the full value of the problem inside of that company that you're selling to.
[00:08:41] How does your company address that problem? How many different stakeholders inside that company are being affected by that problem? And then you'll basically run through a sales process where you'll start up by, you know, getting the primary, uh, champion . Involved. You will get the main decision maker involved.
[00:08:57] You will then start to potentially do multi-threading to basically get alternative stakeholders in the business who might have an adjacent problem that the platform can also solve. But what you're inherently doing there is that you are fully addressing the problem You are having to draft in a lot of different stakeholders.
[00:09:12] You are having to. Get every one of them to agree. So those things will affect your sales cycle. They will affect your ACVs being higher because now you're addressing a lot more pains that accumulated can, you know, warrant a higher ACV contract for the solution that you're solving. And then your conversion will trip typically not be as high because you have to please a lot more people and it has to be, you know, functional for all the different use cases that you have.
[00:09:36] And then once you land them, that is great because now you have a high acv, but you will typically also have low churn.
[00:09:43] And the reason for that is because now you're organizationally wide set up. There's no one person who can say, I don't like it anymore. I'm, I'm gonna churn. So this is where you have the benefit of having low churn.
[00:09:54] Typically you will have higher ACVs, but you'll naturally have a handicap when it comes to upselling. Mm-hmm. So that's sort of where you will typically end up in the a hundred to 105. And that's fantastic. It, it really works well. And this is why, you know, they have low churn and they appreciate that.
[00:10:10] That's also a really valuable part of the business. and typically what this strategy is good for is if you have a product that requires, you know, maybe a, a lot of technical setup, so it takes some time to implement the product itself. It might even need to be onboarded properly through, you know, education and explaining how it works and, you know, running workshops with different teams to kind of get them on board.
[00:10:33] That's where you know, you wanna have that high upfront investment to also warrant that you can go through the implementation and that's where you wanna basically capture the whole problem and basically address that and, and price it out and sell it. And then obviously if you have different thing, which is that you have ala carte model, for example, this is where you have.
[00:10:51] Well, we have split our products into different modules. We have given different user rights, so now we can basically have a lot of different add-ons or different portions of the product that can be added on or so later on. Yeah, and what you can then, in that case, you can basically sell the core use case.
[00:11:08] To the first buyer. You don't need to, you know, sell to everyone at the same time. So what you're inherently doing there is that you are selling for lower acv. You will have a quicker sales process. You might have higher churn because you're not institutionally sort of installed in the business, but now you can actually start to address post sales.
[00:11:26] How are you gonna expand the account? And this is where you can get to, you know, much higher NRR of, you know, 120 or 130 potentially because you've broken down your product in a way where it is upsellable.
[00:11:36] Mikkel: Mm.
[00:11:36] Olafur: You will have quicker sales processes, but you will also leave money on the table. So the ACVs will naturally be, you know, lower because you're not addressing the full business problem that the business might have.
[00:11:47] So that's where, you know, that can still be applied to business that have some kind of a technical setup and need the onboarding. And you know that that's basically where we see the companies who are, you know, performing above the averages. What they are doing is that they're typically sort of very strategically setting up their sales strategy.
[00:12:03] And their pricing and packaging to facilitate that. They might even have that they allow their AEs to participate in getting bonuses based on an upsell because they don't want to incentivize the AEs to extract the full value in the initial sale. They would rather get the dollars in quick on a lower ACV and then having a land and expand sort of mentality about it, and having then the product basically being built in the way and priced out in a way where that can be facilitated.
[00:12:28] Right.
[00:12:28] Mikkel: I think HubSpot is kind of also an example of a card, right? So they have a marketing hub, a sales hub, and a service hub. So it's three pretty big departments inside a SaaS company they can address. And I think what's pretty interesting is you, you can now have a separate sales led motion to your outbound, which is dealing with existing customers who are already paying.
[00:12:50] Olafur: Yeah. No, and exactly. I mean, this is sort of what we see now. And obviously, you know, product led growth is a well known concept and for, for a few years. Everyone thinks this is the new way that every business will sell their product. Um, I don't necessarily believe in that because I think that, you know, that motion is really geared towards, uh, companies who have a extremely low setup and where you basically can get, you know, utility out of the product from day zero.
[00:13:14] So you swipe the credit card for $99 or whatever it might be, you add team members and they can start using it immediately. And this is, for example, slack is a great example of that. And then what those companies have really achieved to do is to then create a frictionless way to upsell, and that really is, you know, that's how they can get to 160, 70, 80% NRR is because they have that based on usage or based on adding new users.
[00:13:41] There's no need to negotiate a new contract, which is typically what you would have in an ALA cars model. You would actually have to sell those different components into different departments. Or regions. But with that, you can basically say, just add another user. We will then invoice you for that.
[00:13:54] And you have a true up and a true down as the company expands and contracts. Contracts on the usage. And obviously this is what everyone would like to have because it sounds well easy sale upfront, but at the same time, it creates different problems. So for example, for the cfo, it creates the problem that, you know, I don't know what I'm gonna be paying for software six from now or 12 months from now.
[00:14:15] So they will obviously be a little bit hesitant to kind of jump on board with that. And, uh, but generally they also like it because it, it, it's not buying shelfware, you know, they know that they'll be paying based on usage. So there's a fair, you know, equilibrium in terms of value being delivered and what he's paying for so well, he or she is paying for, but.
[00:14:35] At the end of the day, this is sort of connected to the PLG motion and where we're seeing the NRR hacking, where we're seeing the, the snowflakes of the world achieving, you know, 170, 80. I don't know what it is today, but it's, it's been crazy in terms of what it is. And this is where companies have very, you know Yeah.
[00:14:53] Very strategically actually engineered their sales process and what they're selling in the first go.
[00:14:58] Yeah.
[00:14:59] To a proposition where that is not necessarily a value driver. Yeah. So you're basically selling. Hey, here is an instance.
[00:15:07] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:15:08] Olafur: And that instance cost you, you know, a hundred bucks or 500 bucks. But actually the utility comes from when I connect data sources to it or I add a hundred users.
[00:15:19] This platform is just not usable until you do that. Yeah. So the initial land, which can then be set for 99 bucks or 500 or whatever that number is really not the initial land number because you're not actually delivering under the utility of the product. Yeah, yeah. But then when they do start to connect data source and data starts flowing in and it's very clear what it will cost to actually, you know, get that on board, that additional $2,000 or $3,000 can be called upsell.
[00:15:45] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:15:46] Olafur: And you could argue that that is and are hacking because now you've positionally sort of sold something that in itself might not have like an awesome utility. but because you can now call that the land price, everything that follows becomes an upsell. Yeah. And you could argue that they should actually be selling if they just sold, you know, the utility with the initial setup, they would probably end up with the same amount.
[00:16:09] But now they're basically bucketing revenue in two different sort of buckets. New base being the super low one, and the utility or the usage is basically now all upsell. And this is where you can end up. Very dreamy looking numbers, right,
[00:16:24] Mikkel: Yeah, probably when you look at the, the tables of the financials and, and the revenue streams, as long you say the expansion MRR is gonna be wildly higher than the newbiz MRR. And I, and I think it's just so funny. So both you and I have, uh, procured, procured looker in the past. Yeah. Time to value is something like six months, if you're, I would say probably 12.
[00:16:45] They probably 12, but, but then, you know, if you, if you can get something out of six months, then you're done truly well. So that's a, a long wait. They sell at, at least that's the way I recall it and I'm not, you know, the data guy, but almost full platform upfront and then fixed acv, pretty much. And you can do multi-year whatever, and I.
[00:17:06] Snowflake was doing the same model. I, that would, that would make sense to me. They're kind of in the same space. Again, this is a marketing person trying to talk about BI here, right? Yeah. Um, and then you were like, well no, you go in and swipe your credit card and it's a hundred bucks. And then once you connect your data, it jumps to like two K
[00:17:25] Olafur: Yeah. No, and it's, uh, I think ultimately, even though it is a repositioning of a number, and this is where the NRR maybe.
[00:17:33] Ballooned a little bit and some of that. This is what we call the NRR hacking because it is, it is engineering a number to a certain degree, right? But I do think that what the user space models do actually, you know, where they actually do supersede what we have traditionally looked at. So if you take, you know, Salesforce for example, the way that they sell is that they want the full upfront commitment for the year, for the total amount of users that you will possibly end up using for that year.
[00:18:00] So you're buying users. You won't have on the platform. You haven't hired them yet, right? And there you're asking a lot of an organization to assess the full utility of the platform, the full utility of the platform for anyone you will add in the future. And you wanna price it to the maximum and you wanna lock in it for as long as you can, and you wanna have upfront payments, right?
[00:18:20] And that is obviously very hard to do because you assessing even how many salespeople we have. Obviously this is all very difficult. Um, and with the other model, even though it is come somewhat of a hack, you still are then subjective to what is the utility of it, how much will we need? And you will only pay when you need it.
[00:18:39] And that, that is a really extremely, you know, fair value prop. And this is why it's almost easier to get the commitment of, you know, a hundred or $200. Because the product has to be built in a way where people, it's built so well that people will use it. Yeah. And they will want to use it more. And you're relying on the product selling itself.
[00:19:00] Yeah. That is ultimately what it is. And then, you know, and this goes back into sort of what is it that companies should be doing to optimize NRR and, and you know, there's many answers to that question, but at the end of the day, you cannot achieve those NRR numbers unless you have a product that's built for purpose, for being self used and self upsold, you need to create contracts that have stipulations that if they had an extra user, they'll be charged differently.
[00:19:28] You have to create, uh, plans for sales that if they sell a customer that they might benefit from, you know, the upsell that occurs in the near future. You will have to price and package your product so that it can be. In that increment and in that way, and as they expand on the utility, you can upsell them on that.
[00:19:48] And this is all very complicated. And then you will need to structure your go-to-market engine to facilitate that. So, I think often people want to go to a NRR number and they say, well, how do we do it? And the complicated answer is that you have five levers or four levers that you can pull, but rarely can you pull the NRR up in the short term because all of them are long term strategic initiatives that you'll need to build into your business.
[00:20:14] The two ones which you can influence in the short term, which are upsells and churn. Churn is a super tanker.
[00:20:22] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:20:23] Olafur: it moves really slowly because the people who are leaving you today and tomorrow, they decided to leave you six months ago. So in the short run, you can't really influence churn all that much.
[00:20:31] And I have tried, like, God
[00:20:33] Mikkel: tried calling them
[00:20:34] Olafur: No, I mean, I created. Churn analytics engines, and, I mean, I don't even know how many CSM I applied on East Case, and you just realize that it's not an effort cut. Those companies that didn't get utility from your product for the last six months, they have already decided that they're leaving.
[00:20:51] So changing that number is extremely hard, and it's ultimately a, you know, a, a product that needs to be functional and deliver on the value that you've sold and upselling if you've sold a full value organizationally. That's not something you can lift up. No. Even though you apply now, uh, SDR team to call up existing customers, you apply, you know, three account management account, that's not gonna sell more product.
[00:21:15] If you're addressing their full pain with your solution, then that's what it is. Yeah. So this is why I'm saying that, that, you know, companies that have been built up with NR mind, they are the ones achieving those numbers because they have actually fully constructed their business around it, all the way from how they.
[00:21:33] The tech that they're selling to, how they market and sell it through, how they incentivize the organization. And you know, and ultimately they have, they have basically built a whole organization around it.
[00:21:45] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:21:45] Olafur: And if you wanna change your NRR to those levels, then you need to build out those functions.
[00:21:51] You need to build out those capabilities internally. And uh, that's not something that can happen overnight.
[00:21:56] Mikkel: So I hope the listener's not gonna go like, oh, I was really hoping I could just tomorrow go and then bump up the R.
[00:22:02] But you know, shifting a go to market motion when you already have, let's just say 10 million ARR. That's gonna be pretty difficult to do if you want to shift it into this gear.
[00:22:12] Olafur: Yeah, no, I think if there was a quick hack out of all the things you can do, I would simply, you know, try to look at the new business acquisition ACV and say, is it really necessary to extract that value? Or are there smaller pains that we can segment out and sell for a smaller group?
[00:22:32] Consciously taking a lower ACV and and having a shorter sales cycle, and then building up the ability to upsell the value later on. Basically. Now, you know, it might take you longer to get a revenue dollar in, honestly, so you will optimize for a metric, but your upfront payment and when you will get those dollars will also be delayed the future.
[00:22:51] So that is where you could do it, but that's where you would go in and change incentive models for sales. You would potentially have.
[00:22:58] you know,
[00:22:59] Different product tiers or different user rights that you could kind of segment out. But in the short term, that is really how you do it. You need to then not fully solve the total company wide pain in the initial sales.
[00:23:08] Yeah. And then extract from that, you know? And this is the typical land and expand mindset that you wanna have, but that is the only real short term lever that you can sort of control. But
[00:23:18] Mikkel: but I think it's just super important to address. Right? And, and I think in past episodes, Toni and I have talked about, hey, if you wanna build out a new motion, be prepared to spend 12 months on it because it takes time and it's gonna be the same with, you know, if you want to start impacting NRR, but I just find it so fascinating.
[00:23:34] Like we were talking before we started recording, uh, Toni and I talked about.
[00:23:41] Olafur: Yeah.
[00:23:41] Mikkel: Dot com. So project management tool, they do a few other things as well. I think CRM and I, I mean they, they have a lot, they do a lot of stuff, right. And he was talking about, well, why is an account executive like handholding me through the process of buying a tool that's gonna cost us a hundred bucks a month?
[00:23:59] And, and you,
[00:24:00] Olafur: because you're gonna be paying a thousand bucks for it in six
[00:24:02] Mikkel: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But that's, that's the power of it. And I think.
[00:24:06] Olafur: um,
[00:24:07] Mikkel: I think this is where long term you can consider, Hey, is this a future path of growth for us? And what shift do we as a business need to make? And then, and then realizing it's not gonna be a Q1 project because just when you said sales incentives, that's a whole massive task on its own.
[00:24:23] Just all the one-on-ones you're gonna have
[00:24:26] Olafur: Yeah, yeah. No, but at the end of the day, it's about creating a completely frictionless way to sell a new product. Yeah. And when you have SDRs account executives who need to run a 60 day sales process showing the demo, calling it, that's friction. Yeah.
[00:24:41] All of that is friction. With that friction comes a higher ACV, and that's fantastic, but you are creating friction, so creating a completely frictionless way to buy the product, and then subsequently a completely frictionless way to upsell the product. Those are the, and are our first companies that we're seeing today being built.
[00:24:58] And ultimately I think it's fantastic and I would love to build Grow Block to be the same way because you know, and we have started doing some of that. We were showing the product on the website. We wanna cut down the account executive sales process as much as we can because at the end of the day, people just want to get their hands on the product to see if it works for them.
[00:25:15] Yeah. And then make a decision of how much they want to use it and hence how much they're gonna pay for it.
[00:25:18] Mikkel: I can't tell you how many times I've just. I just wanna see the things. Yeah. I don't want get a call and be screened. It's, that's, you know, I just wanna see it so I can
[00:25:27] Olafur: another discovery call?
[00:25:28] Huh?
[00:25:31] Mikkel: But I hope this was super interesting. Yeah. Uh, at least I found it pretty fascinating to just start breaking down that NRR hyper growth engine they have going on. Uh, super important again, to point out this is not something you do in, you know, a quarter or even probably a year. It's gonna take a bit of time.
[00:25:50] Um, but if you can nail it, Then you can grow pretty darn fast. . Yeah.
[00:25:57] Olafur: If you build a company to do it, then it can't be done.
[00:26:00] Mikkel: Lots of work ahead of us, I guess.
[00:26:02] Olafur: for sure.
[00:26:02] Mikkel: But thanks so much for being, uh, the substitute. Thanks for having, maybe we'll have you on for another episode again next week. Who knows? We'll see. Uh, I need to review, I guess, this episode and decide whether, even what not.
[00:26:13] I'm joking. I'm Jo
[00:26:14] Olafur: yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:16] Mikkel: Thanks so much, Ola, for
[00:26:18] Olafur: Thank you, Michael.
[00:26:19] Mikkel: Take care. Bye.