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The Moment explores the pivotal moments that changed the lives and careers of the world’s leading CEOs and defined their leadership journeys.
Claire Blake (00:04):
From World 50, this is The Moment where we explore the pivotal moments that changed the lives and careers of the world's leading CEOs and defined their leadership journeys. I'm your host, Claire Blake. Today we're talking to Alex Gorsky, former chairman and CEO of Johnson & Johnson.
Alex Gorsky (00:23):
Some of the first advice you get when you become CEO, and by the way, I don't agree with this, is don't take it personal. This is going to happen, that's going to happen. I took it all personal.
Claire Blake (00:33):
Now board director at Apple, IBM, and JPMorgan Chase. Gorsky spent three decades at Johnson & Johnson with a pivotal detour in the middle. He shares how a serendipitous encounter with his former CEO in a very unlikely place opened the doors for his return to J&J and how asking, "What can I learn?" drives his most important decisions.
(00:56):
I did read that you never like to go to bed without a book on your bedside table. What book is on your bedside table right now?
Alex Gorsky (01:03):
I'm actually reading the history of JP Morgan. I figured if I'm on the board at JP Morgan, I always like to learn the history. So of course I've read The Walt Isaacson biography on Steve Jobs. I've read numerous books on IBM and the JP Morgan history is just fascinating. I feel like it just connects me better with the companies that I'm so fortunate to serve.
Claire Blake (01:22):
That's such great advice anyway. It's better than a board immersion program.
Alex Gorsky (01:25):
Exactly.
Claire Blake (01:26):
That's actually pretty awesome. I cannot ask some background questions without asking about Pat. You've been married for 36 years and what's the secret to your success?
Alex Gorsky (01:35):
We were fortunate to meet almost 40 years ago. And as I say, we started dancing that night and we've been dancing ever since.
Claire Blake (01:41):
Oh, I love that.
Alex Gorsky (01:42):
It's been great that we share a common interest in careers. She was a lifelong nurse. And so the fact that she worked in healthcare and I worked in healthcare always gave us things to talk about. In fact, she helped actually teach me about the industry, about the profession when I first got into it, and the ability to grow together. The truth is, none of us are the same people, and that's likely a really good thing that we were many decades ago. And it's only when you can find ways to grow and develop and to find new interests that are common and that you enjoy. And that's certainly been the case with us.
Claire Blake (02:17):
Obviously want to note. Looking at your resume, there's actually a little fun fact hidden there, which was that you spent six years in the US Army artillery, reached the rank of captain. Funny enough, last season, we talked to Chip Bergh of Levi's about his military service and how it made him the disciplined leader he is today. I'm curious for you, when I look on paper, making the leap from the military to pharmaceuticals feels like a significant transition. What were you looking for that led you to a sales role in an iconic company like J&J?
Alex Gorsky (02:50):
Well, I wish I could say that it was all part of a big strategy that I had in my brain from day one. That really wasn't the case. My father was a Korean War veteran. My mother was not too excited about him staying in the regular Army when he came back from serving in Korea. And so he got out and went into business, but he did stay in the US Army Reserves. Those experiences were really important to him. And I think shaped him, which as a result helped shape me. And I really enjoyed my time at the academy while it was difficult and challenging. And yes, there were days where it totally sucked. The overall experience, it just opened me up to a world academically from a leadership perspective. And then of course, when I got a chance to get into the regular Army to go abroad, to live in Europe, to be only 23 years old, stationed at a really remote site, you learn a lot about yourself.
(03:43):
So it's not only about leadership, you learn about followship, you learn about grit, you learn about resilience. Actually, prior to the academy, I had given some consideration to going into medicine just for a number of reasons. I kind of went a different path. So when I was considering what to do with my career, I knew that I had an innate interest to learn more about healthcare. I also enjoyed the prospect of getting involved in business. I was trained as an engineer and really a lot of what you did in the artillery and when I served as an officer was you did problem solving. And I think that's basically what business does. And so putting those two things together, I was able to interview with Johnson & Johnson. And then when I paired that up with the value system at J&J, it was a marriage, you might say.
Claire Blake (04:29):
I do want to highlight. I mean, looking at your career, many might just see over three decades at J&J. You started as a sales rep, you moved your way up the company to group chairman of J&J's pharma business in EMEA, but they may not notice that after about 15 years with the company, you did take a detour and you left to become COO of Novartis, eventually the CEO of North America. How did you make that decision to leave J&J?
Alex Gorsky (04:51):
Yeah, look, walk back maybe just a touch and just say how fortunate I was to join a company that really put a premium on development. If J&J had decided to take an approach where they were hiring me for a job rather than a career, I wouldn't be talking to you today. But what they did was they saw the potential. And through those kind of opportunities that you ended up growing, developing, learning, picking up new skills and hopefully having impact along the way, that really is the reason that I'm here today. And look, I was incredibly fortunate to experience most of that in Janssen. Like a lot of executives, I had an experience. I found myself in a position where on a professional basis, I wasn't completely aligned with who I was working for at the time. On a personal level, I was living on the other side of the ocean.
(05:43):
And then another opportunity happened to come my way that I felt at the time, and while I had really almost completely disregarded previous recruiting attempts, it came at a time that you might say piqued my interest and resulted in me making the decision to step outside of Johnson & Johnson.
Claire Blake (06:01):
Right time, right place, right situation, all those things I think come into play and maybe serendipitous to get that call at that moment in time. I do want to kind of underscore that in this podcast, we're talking to CEOs about the seminal moments of their lives and careers that truly made them who they are as individuals and leaders. And it's not your departure that we're actually going to unpack. It's actually the return because I understand that after about four years at Novartis, you had a career altering moment, but it didn't happen in the office. It was standing outside a bathroom at a local restaurant. What happened and why should we all go out to eat at restaurants more often?
Alex Gorsky (06:37):
Exactly. Life is often a bit of a through down a path that you can't anticipate and that is serendipitous. And it certainly was the case with me. And it was, it was about four years later. And I happened to be in a restaurant not too far from where I live in Pennsylvania. I went there on a, I think it was a Saturday night and it was very busy. And as I walked in, I happened to run into my predecessor, then CEO of Johnson & Johnson, who was there with some friends having dinner. We said hello. It was very cordial. And I knew that because we had not had a chance to converse directly, that there were probably some hard feelings about how I departed that I take ownership for. So anyway, we ended up meeting another couple for dinner. We go sit down, finish dinner.
(07:26):
And before I'm getting up, I said, "I need to go to the bathroom." And I went and the door was locked and I'm standing there waiting. And when the door opened, it was my predecessor, Bill Weldon. We ended up standing there having a conversation and agreed to get together and meet. That's how things got going.
Claire Blake (07:43):
So you see him, you say, "Let's talk." Do you remember what you said when you went back to the table when you were with Pat and your friend? What was their reaction to this situation?
Alex Gorsky (07:50):
Well, we were actually with another couple from Johnson & Johnson.
Claire Blake (07:52):
Oh, how funny?
Alex Gorsky (07:53):
I didn't say anything right away.
(07:56):
But obviously when we got home that night, I told Pat about it and she said, "See, I told you so."
Claire Blake (08:01):
That's hilarious. What was your relationship, just so we understand, prior to this interaction, I mean, how would you have described the relationship between you and Bill?
Alex Gorsky (08:13):
We had a very good relationship. When I was much more junior in my career, I think when I was perhaps a new sales manager. And by chance, we were at a national meeting and I ended up going down for a run really early in the morning and there's this guy standing by the door and I didn't even know who he was at the time. And he says, "Oh, you going for a run?" I said, "Yeah." We ended up running together and I found out that he was this new leader and we developed a relationship. And throughout my career, Bill mentored me in a lot of different ways, and that's how we developed a relationship. And I'd be the first one to say I would never have sat in the role that I did at J&J were it not for his support and mentorship along the way.
Claire Blake (08:52):
This is about four years from your departure that you're seeing him. Did you expect him to be kind and welcoming when you saw his face? I mean, what was your feeling in your gut in seeing somebody? Did this feel like a ghost of Christmas past or this feel like seeing an old friend?
Alex Gorsky (09:06):
It was a little bit of both.
Claire Blake (09:07):
Yeah.
Alex Gorsky (09:07):
It did feel like an old friend because personally there was a very good bond there. But you have to admit, it's probably a little bit awkward because I knew that there was disappointment and I'm sure that I could have done better jobs in communicating certain ways, but I think we were both able to see through that and ended up having some great conversations following that first meeting. And obviously there was a lot of support also from other senior members of the leadership team to say, "You know what, Alex, it'd be great if you could come back." And it was clearly something that I was really interested in.
Claire Blake (09:40):
Were you immediately sold on the idea of going back? Did it take some convincing? What were some of the conversations and maybe what had to be true for you to come back?
Alex Gorsky (09:51):
It started a process when you're considering employee development and in different situations. So in this particular case, the head of human resources at the time also reached out to me. And look, when we first started the conversation, it wasn't, "Oh, okay, you're going to come back." It was, "Hey, let's just sit down and talk and see where you are, what you're thinking about." Well, what struck me was the level of outreach and the willingness to engage, again, in a really meaningful way with multiple people on the senior leadership team at the time. And it immediately reminded me, I think, number one of why I had spent so much of my career at J&J in the first place, and as importantly, why I could even be excited about returning. Look, when you do the boomerang trip, there's always a few things to keep in mind.
(10:42):
One is while you're returning to a company, it's not the same company. The fact that our people, dynamics, they changed.
Claire Blake (10:48):
And presumably you're not the same person either.
Alex Gorsky (10:51):
Exactly. You're not the same person. You're not going to parachute in suddenly. And so for me, what is the right entry point?
Claire Blake (10:58):
Yeah.
Alex Gorsky (10:58):
So when I returned and went into a role responsible for our Ethicon business, which is one of the very initial businesses within J&J in the medical device area where they made sutures and a number of other products. And so the opportunity not only to return, but to return and learn a new business, learn a new sector, new technologies, new innovation cycles was particularly attractive. And I felt that for me as an executive, it would certainly take me from being a pharmaceutical executive to more of a healthcare executive in understanding a completely different arena. And they couldn't have been more welcoming. I was blown away. And when I first came back on, sometimes people could say, "Well, he left and now he's coming back. What's going on? What does this mean?" You can imagine there were probably medical device leaders that would've liked to have had that job.
(11:53):
My experience really was nothing but positive to say, "Wow, it's great to have you back." And so it made for a great reentry point.
Claire Blake (12:02):
In a lot of ways, this feels like a prodigal son moment and story, but I think the big important piece there is because of the thoughtfulness around your entry point, right? Because I think it very much could have felt different.
(12:13):
I am going to ask you, I mean, I have a lot of conversations with executives who are CEO hopefuls, and I think the conversation around these moves externally, internally, are really critical. How did you engage in that conversation? Because I'm assuming this was somewhat of an aspiration of yours, and I'm assuming that was somewhat important to you to know that there was that potential.
Alex Gorsky (12:35):
What I would say is leaving Johnson & Johnson, going to a different company like Novartis, having to learn new systems, new people, new therapeutic categories, I think in so many ways really made me a better leader. I always have to caution that when I'm talking to leaders. It doesn't mean you have to leave the company always to do that. And look, and there's even some things in my departure from J&J that I look back on and go, "Gosh, I would've done this differently. Could I have communicated better? Were there other people that I should have talked to?" Absolutely. And so I think there's learnings from that from me. However, once having made that decision and going someplace, suddenly you have to really reinvent yourself, not just depend on all those networks and the history and the kind of institutional support that you have in one organization, you have to rebuild that in another.
(13:21):
And for me, doing that actually turned out to be a great experience. First of all, I tried to go into it to say, where can I learn? And I think all too often you see executives will come in and say, "Let me show you what I can do." And what I found, particularly during my time as CEO and even today sitting on boards, I think one of the most important characteristics of great leaders is the ability to learn. And as we know, especially with technology that evolves at the pace that it is today and accelerating, the half-life of our education is probably less than five years. And so it's not what you know, but it's your ability to learn new things and to be able to rapidly absorb a lot of information and apply critical thinking skills and then help rally teams around them to create value, to make a difference for patients. That's what's really meaningful.
(14:19):
The next part was, look, the job that I took, if you looked at it by traditional methodologies, i.e. Net trade sales, number of people, blah, blah, it would've been lateral at best. Maybe even a slight quote step back from the position I had at Novartis at the time, that was not a priority for me. And I think all too often when you're talking about career progression, people come in and say, "Well, unless it's bigger and badder," and all these and I'm going, "Well, wait a minute, you don't even understand that business. You're going to have to learn." So sometimes going a little bit sideways can be a great thing. Don't judge the role and responsibility just by the traditional factors, judge it by what's it going to do to your foundation and how is that going to improve your abilities down the road?
Claire Blake (15:09):
It's a really great point. I read somewhere that I think that your mom taught you that you don't learn when you're talking. And I think it's feeling very apropos that I think your big life lesson here after multiple decades is, what can I learn? Not what can I show you I can do, which I think is really powerful.
(15:28):
I can tell purpose is really important to you. So what are Alex's values? And in this case, we're talking Alex 2.0 back to Johnson & Johnson. What is different about what defines Alex versus what defines Johnson & Johnson, which has a very strong value system to its core that's been built over 130 plus years.
Alex Gorsky (15:47):
I feel very fortunate that if you think about three of the big pillars of my life, so my family, my time in the military, both at West Point as well as active duty, as well as my time at Johnson & Johnson have all been predicated upon strong values. And so my family where my grandparents were all immigrants, my father, Korean War veteran, my mother assisted in special ed program. It was all about hard work, education, resilience, family. And I was the middle child. I had older brothers and sisters, I had younger brothers and sisters. There was a certain accountability because you were a follower at times. You had to be a leader at other times. Growing up in a small town, being part of a community where if you did something in school, your parents were going to know about it before you got home.
(16:37):
An expectation around a certain humility. Your brothers and sisters could really keep you in check to make sure that you didn't get beyond what you should be. Those were some of the grounding principles for me that I had growing up and you then migrate into the academy where it was duty, honor, country. You don't lie, cheat, or steal or tolerate those who do so. That further came to kind of characterize the leader that not only who I was, but who I aspired to be. And then of course, when I was making a transition to business, finding a company like Johnson & Johnson that had this well-established set of principles in this credo about patients, employees, communities, shareholders. My very first interview, somebody said, "Make sure you read the Johnson & Johnson Credo because that's likely to be a question in the interview." And sure enough, I went in, the very first question I got from the interviewer was, "Have you read about the Johnson & Johnson Credo and what does it mean to you?"
Claire Blake (17:36):
And this is a credo that was established long before the term corporate social responsibility-
Alex Gorsky (17:40):
Oh, was even in the vernacular-
Claire Blake (17:40):
For what it's worth, right?
Alex Gorsky (17:43):
Exactly. Those kind of values and principles really have been part of my life every step of the way.
Claire Blake (17:48):
And tell us exactly, obviously you prepared for that interview answer. So what exactly does the credo mean? What are the most important things that we should know of something that's so ingrained in such a legacy organization?
Alex Gorsky (18:02):
Well, it actually hearkens back to the son of our founder, Robert Wood Johnson, who was a pretty interesting character. So he took on certain ideas as it related to capitalism, the relationship between businesses and broader society. And after World War I and World War II, he actually became quite concerned about what was the role of business in helping to reshape the country. In several paragraphs, he just talked about, look, our first responsibility is to the patients we served. He went further, talked about mothers and fathers and doctors and surgeons and nurses who use our products who depend on us. He talked about employees. Third paragraph, he talked about giving back to the communities, making sure you treat your vendors, as the word was at the time, so that they too could make a fair profit. Well, wait a minute, wasn't the objective of business to get the lowest possible price?
(18:56):
No. But then in the end, he brought it all together where he said, "And we have a responsibility to our shareholders who invested their capital and who also deserve a fair return." And I think there's an inherent discipline in that and that it's an and and proposition. You take care of each of those constituencies and stakeholders. And I think as a result, it's become an ethos within Johnson & Johnson. And it was not uncommon in Johnson & Johnson for somebody to say, "Wait a minute, this is a credo decision. How should we think about that?" And I always thought that was a magic moment in the company.
Claire Blake (19:30):
Wouldn't be lost for me to share that you were the CEO of Johnson & Johnson in just a little pandemic. Before that, by the way, you stepped into the role in some really, really challenging times for the company. Your entire decade as CEO was jam packed with challenging times, right? I would be remiss if I didn't tell you job well done and managing that as the ninth CEO in J&J's 125 plus year history, whether that be in the pandemic or many other challenges and controversies that you had to lead through as kind of a decade, was there a time when your values and your purpose that's been core to who you are and what your family raised you in so many years ago where that was really challenged? Is there anything that sticks out to you in that that we could learn from?
Alex Gorsky (20:15):
Oh, there are a number of times. And some of the first advice you get when you become CEO, and by the way, I don't agree with this, is don't take it personal. This is going to happen, that's going to happen. I took it all personal. You can't help, but when you poured your hard work and passion into a company for as long as you did, that was my family. And so when things would happen or the accusations would be made that you knew were completely inconsistent with our value system, with our people who, by the way, even during COVID, these were moms and dads themselves. These were people who were taking care of their parents and grandparents and their children. For me, that was the hardest part when there would be this fundamental disconnect, the relationships that I had and that I had built for years more than anything else, they also gave me strength during those times knowing that it was my responsibility and my privilege to represent them to the rest of the world.
(21:11):
And I was going to make sure that I did that in the very best possible way.
Claire Blake (21:16):
I do want to translate this whole theme on values into the work that you're doing today because you're now serving on a few small boards, Apple, IBM, JPMorgan Chase. I did the math before we hopped on, combined 3.6 trillion in market cap. You're responsible for the governance of those organizations as a board director. How do your values inform and influence your role on these boards?
Alex Gorsky (21:39):
Absolutely. I was very intentional in being able to be selected and placed on boards where, again, I feel very much aligned with the fundamental principles and ethics of these companies, companies that clearly have a big impact on the world, whether it's business to business technology at IBM, business to consumer, at Apple, the financial side of things at JP Morgan, but under the core that each one of them in their own way, you might say, has their own credo that I feel aligns and compliments very well the fundamental set of principles that we discussed earlier.
Claire Blake (22:18):
I love that. All right. Final question and serious question. Are you looking out for former colleagues in bathroom lines at restaurants? Is that the life lesson from this podcast and this story?
Alex Gorsky (22:28):
You should always be on the lookout for future leaders to help them out.
Claire Blake (22:32):
Never know where they're going to come from. Look, I think this has been an incredible story on just taking challenge as always a learning opportunity. And I think I hear that from you and your decision on the boards that you serve and the responsibility that comes with that. You talk about it so effortlessly as if these weren't really earth-shattering, life-changing challenges that you led through. So thank you for taking us inside the look at what makes Alex tick in order to make you thrive in that type of environment.
(23:02):
World 50 is the safe space where leaders of the world's most respected companies exchange ideas and learn from one another. To learn more about membership, visit us at www.world50.com.