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The podcast on man things
S1 E10: Wing Wisdom with Dom
Catherine: It's like shopping for SPF. And there's a 30 and an 8000. Hi, everyone, I'm Catherine and this is men's stuff, the podcast on man things.
Dom: Wait a minute, you're not a man.
Catherine: I know, but who better to learn about man stuff than a woman? And today I'm interested in learning more about wings. And guess what? You're going to help me. Everyone, the person who's joining me today is my friend Dom, and he's the expert on wings and buffalo wings.
Dom knows everything there is to know about wings. He has very high wing standards
Dom: Good to be on, Catherine, everyone.
Catherine: Dom knows everything there is to know about wings. And he's even invented his own wing sauce called Dom sauce. It's delicious. Dom, um, tell us about your love for wings and how that began.
Dom: Oh my gosh. So we were probably ten years old at the time. Best friends growing up. I remember we were just in need of a quick dinner. We had to get to a game and his mom threw in these chicken wings in the oven, whipped up a quick sauce. But I remember we ate them and I just absolutely loved them. I ate mine super fast. I ate a lot of them. She even put a few leftovers and like a little tupperware for me to take for later. That's where my love of wings was born.
Catherine: And you truly have a passion for wings. And one of the things you didn't bring up is your quest to find all of the best places. Dom's been to restaurants all over the United States that win awards. He has very high wing standards. Wings are his happy place. We talked before the podcast about the t shirts that we're wearing. Everyone, I am wearing a t shirt, um, that says fried chicken is dope. Dom, where is your shirt from?
Dom: Mine is from Jim's wings in Fort Collins. They've been around now for over 30 years. They've only got the one location. It's always packed because people know how good it is. Their sauces are outstanding. It's tough to beat.
Catherine: That's notable if Dom likes Jim's wings enough that he bought a shirt.
Dom: To be fair, I was given the sheer Christmas gift.
Catherine: It's my only Christmas gift.
Dom: It's my only wing shirt from a place.
Catherine: Was it a Christmas present from Jim himself?
Dom: Oh, I wish.
Catherine: What's the best wing you've ever had?
Dom: Best wing I've ever had. It was probably my first, like actual wing place. I would go to like middle school, high school age. There was one not far from my childhood house called Wingman. It was just a really good classic buffalo sauce. And they had like varying levels of heat. And for me, I'm not going to do, like, the triple x hot. You're asking for a bad time if you go with that. But I think, just, like, the step up, the extra hot is the way to go. I'm sure it was like Frank's base. Keep it simple. Really crispy, you know, quality chicken. I think those are probably the secrets to any really good wing for those three things. And wingman was just outstanding, but I think they did not pay their taxes.
Catherine: Wonderful at making wings. They're not good at finances. They all have strengths. So the three things that you said make a wing good, it sounded like sauce was one of them.
Dom: Yep.
Catherine: And then what were the other two?
Dom: Quality of chicken, level of crispiness. There's gotta be some crisp to it. I know a lot of folks love the extra crispy, and you can pay, like, an added fee to do that. I think a good wing should already be crispy.
Catherine: It's like if you bought shoes and they didn't have laces.
Dom: Yeah.
Catherine: Or something.
Dom: Wings should never be, like, soggy. There should be a, uh, crisp.
Catherine: Thinking about all of the disappointing soggy wings I've had, and it just.
Dom: Yeah.
Catherine: Okay, so you heard it here first, everyone. Sauce, quality of chicken and crispiness. That's what makes a wing amazing, usually. Dom, at the beginning of my podcast, I ask people to explain the difference between different areas of the topic that might be unclear. Like, when I was talking about Rocky, my guest Christian explained the difference between mma, wrestling, and boxing. With wings, there isn't a wide range of differences, and if my listeners need the difference between bone in and boneless wings explained, we're in trouble.
Which is better, drumsticks or flats, everyone? Dom says both are great
Instead of that, I wanted to talk about something that's a little divisive in the wing world. Which is better, drumsticks or flats, everyone? I just learned the term flat, and the best way I can describe it is it's referring to wings that aren't drumsticks. So I'm going to pivot to you, Dom. Um, can you explain flats better and then tell us what's better, drumsticks or flats?
Dom: I actually love both. If I get a full thing of drummies, that's great. If I get a full thing of flats, that's amazing. Flats are, as their name indicates, they are the flat version. They less. Less meat, which, you know, initially you may think, oh, well, that's kind of a waste. Less meat, but more skin. And that kind of ratio, the less meat, more skin means kind of more flavorful. The drum, it's going to be more meat, but less skin, hence less flavor. My wife
00:05:00
Dom: prefers flats. If she could have a full plate of flats, she would do it. Unfortunately, I'm not going to drive a wedge between us and the audience.
Catherine: I am a drummies all the way.
If you attempt to eat a wing with just one hand, you're wasting meat
But another question for you. Can you eat a flat with just one hand?
Dom: No, there's no way. Not effectively. You're wasting meat if you eat one hand. This is probably where I get fired up the most. Flats are drummies. If you attempt to eat a wing with one hand, you're not doing it correctly. There is a definitive science behind it. I can probably get maybe eight fingers involved with my wing eating in order to get all the meat out, all the flavor. If you don't feel like you need a full shower bath after eaten your wings, then I'm not really sure what you're doing.
Catherine: You need all of your appendages, otherwise.
Dom: Don'T bother the boneless wings. Boneless wings are not actual wings. They're. They're saucy nuggets. Got to get your hands dirty, your fingers dirty. Got, uh, to get the traditional flats or drums. Don't attempt to be a lover of wings and just have, ah, boneless. I'm getting fired up now.
Catherine: When I moved to Colorado, um, I started going to, uh, cabins and calling it camping. And the people of Colorado were like, that is not camping. You cannot stay in a cabin and be camping. I feel like that line needed to be drawn with wings, too.
Dom: I know this is a wound podcast, but I'm a Colorado native and I feel the exact same way. Give me the full cabin with running water and a working stove and all the amenities.
Catherine: Thank you for the validation. I don't want to have to shower after I get back from camping. After I finish eating.
Dom: Only after we eat wings, right, exactly.
The first person to eat these wings, his mom invented them
Catherine: Let's get into the history of wings. And this prompted from a conversation we had earlier this weekend where Dom is going to the birthplace of the Buffalo wing anchor bar in Buffalo, New York. He was telling me the story of how it started.
Dom: Yeah, so it started. 19, uh, 64, Buffalo, New York. Dominic. Ironic, the name. They've got their own restaurant, and I think some of Dominic's friends are coming in. I think they've probably had a few. And Dominic requests that his mom cook something up for the group. And, you know, she just is kind of looking through what she has available, and all she had were leftover chicken wings, which at the time they were really just used for like soup stock. They were kind of a throwaway item in the kitchen. So she gets a bunch of them, um, throws them in a fryer, cooks them up, concocts a quick sauce, which is now famous. You know, after that, it was kind of a staple on their menu. People loved it. And however many years since, it's just exploded in popularity. It's wildly popular. Just quick meal that this lady whipped together back in the mid sixties. Pretty crazy.
Catherine: It's crazy because exactly like what you said, it is a staple food. And the fact that no one put chicken and hot sauce together at this capacity is shocking. Not sure if the listeners heard, but the first person to eat these wings, his mom invented them. His name was Dominic. Your name is Dominic? Are you named after this person?
Dom: He's a long lost cousin. Absolutely. I'm going to pay homage to the family, uh, tradition here in about a month.
Catherine: I'm glad that you also said that they were possibly drinking. I mean, it seems like it. Can you come home late and you need some food? You're usually drinking. It's a risky move, putting a drunk invention on your standard restaurant menu. That's risky. One time in college, I was drunk, and I put cinnamon sugar powder on chicken fingers, and I thought it was the best.
Dom: Oh, interesting.
Catherine: Thanks. I didn't invent the wing, the new wing for them. It completely worked out. So another thing I noticed in this story that I wanted to touch on with you is after this happened, it was very popular in their restaurant, and they wanted to start promoting it around the country. So Dominic went on this tour, and he went on the tour with a hot sauce maker, a hot sauce supplier. Did you see that part of the story?
Dom: Educate me.
Catherine: Okay, so the person who is selling hot sauce to the anchor bar, his name was Dick winger.
Dom: Oh, come on.
Catherine: I am, um, with you. And I was reading that, and I said, what website am I on right now? And it was nationalchickencouncil.org. dick winger. Dick winger. Wings were popular with the restaurant because not only were they delicious, but restaurants also found that wings were cheap to make, and the combination of salt and spice made the patrons order more beer. Overall, a really awesome business decision.
Dom: Probably back in those days, you could probably get plenty wings for a
00:10:00
Dom: couple bucks. Not anymore.
How many chicken wings are sold every year in the United States
Catherine: Okay, a quiz for you. How many chicken wings do you think are sold every year in the United States?
Dom: Oh, man. Every year. It's got to be in the millions, right? Um. Um. Uh, 50 million maybe. I'm being outrageous.
Catherine: I hope you're sitting down.
Dom: I am.
Catherine: 1.5 billion with a b. 1.5 billion. So that is enough for every person in the US to have four wings. 1.2 of those billion are on Super bowl.
Dom: Wow. So I've never been more proud of my country than I am right now.
Catherine: Nice job, America. To everyone listening. If you're a vegetarian or a vegan, and for some reason, you're listening to this podcast on chicken wings. First of all, thank you. I'm now going to show my gratitude by sharing this next stat. Chickens only have two wings. 1.5 billion wings eaten a year. That means that we have 750 million chickens providing them. And I found something out that was actually even more. Hold on just a second. My Alexa is talking.
Dom: Uh oh.
Catherine: Um, um, Dom?
Dom: Yeah?
Catherine: Which basketball team won the first game ever? Uh huh.
Dom: Oh, man. The New York knickerbockers.
Catherine: Alexa, New York Knicks. You got it right. Slight derailment.
Buffalo wings will have a hot sauce with some degree of heat to them
Okay, now that we've talked about wings, let's get into the buffalo sauce itself. Buffalo wings will have a hot sauce with some degree of heat to them, and that heat comes from capsaicin, which is found in chili peppers, and it produces a burning sensation. The capsaicin is responsible for the irritant effect of chili peppers. Since it's an irritant, naturally we pour it all over our food. Capsaicin is measured in Scoville units. And this is a scale that means nothing to me. With the Scoville scale, a bell pepper is zero, a jalapeno is 5000, a, uh, ghost pepper is a million, and then pepper spray is 5 million. Why are we even tracking this? It's unnecessary. It's like shopping for SPF. And there's a 30 and an 8000 dom. Um, what's the hottest wing you've ever eaten?
Dom: I have done ghost pepper. It's just not really, like, a good tasting flavor. It's, uh, just all about the. The spice level. As you just talked about, the ghost pepper and the, uh, carolina reaper. If that's the only thing you're tasting like on a wing, you're gonna have a miserable time. Going back to wingman, I remember they had the challenge of, you know, if you complete one round of our hottest wing, you would get, like, a shirt, and then they would take a picture of you and you'd go on. They would call it the wall of flame. I remember going, like, on a day off and just thought I was the coolest kidde in the world. I don't even think you get, like, the meal for free. You pay for the meal, and if you finish one wing or all but one of them. You're paying for it.
Catherine: Did you. What happened?
Dom: Oh, yeah, me and two buddies, oh, we did it. It was like triple extra hot and you had to sign a waiver. But 1516 year old, you can eat whatever you want. I think all three of us completed it, so I don't think it was hard. Granted, I love spicy food, but definitely still a claim to fame.
Catherine: It's funny, when you were talking about the competitions and you said, if you finish, you don't have to pay for it. Let's be honest, you're gonna pay for it. Just maybe not with money.
Dom: Fair point.
Catherine: I used to try spicier wings a lot. There is a level of enjoyment there until it's not fun anymore. And getting older makes that kind of thing harder. There's this appetizer at fancy restaurants that's always been peculiar to me. Blistered shishito peppers. Have you ever had those? No. Uh, first of all, it's delicious, but one in ten is insanely spicy. Other nine are wonderful. And it's always been funny to me on like dates or work dinners or something. People order that and it's like roulette. I want to have a nice night. Very odd dish. Capsaicin is an irritant and you will regret it if you eat a certain level of it. Yeah, but I actually couldn't find any instances of someone dying from capsaicin itself. People have died eating hot wings and hot sauce, but it's because they will have, like, a heart attack brought on from the peppers. Or in one case, someone had a hole burned in their throat. Oh, my God.
Dom: I shouldn't, uh.
Catherine: Okay, jalapeno is 8000, and, uh, it's still uncomfortable for me by itself. And then we have things that are 2 million. And I'm thinking, what is motivating people to eat this pepper palace?
Dom: They've got a sauce and it's Carolina reaper. It's called the end sauce. And it's another one of those that you gotta sign the waiver. This is like a one drop challenge. Like they literally, they put on a glove. Like you're back in
00:15:00
Dom: high school chemistry class with the doppler of sauce on a chip. My wife and I, we stopped by our honeymoon. I think we saw people in front of us do it, so we do it. And, like, the first five minutes were great. Within 1020 minutes, we were, like, ready to pass out. I mean, we were, like, about to get sick. We had to, like, go outside. We had to, like, sit on the sidewalk I think for a few minutes. I mean, it was. It was not fun. And in, like, you know, middle of summer, it was super humid and hot. We were not having a good time.
Catherine: You guys are awesome. It's a really interesting business model. I'm not a drug dealer, but I believe that the first rule of being a drug dealer is you don't want your clients to oD. Like, don't kill your clients. I'm just wondering what the draw is, because if you don't, like, make your purchase and check out within five minutes of this sauce, then you're gonna just leave. Do not eat the end.
Dom: Don't do the end challenge.
Would you like to guess the most wings ever eaten in a wing eating contest
Catherine: Next fact for you. Would you like to have a guessdehen of the most wings ever eaten in a wing eating contest? And for your reference, that is twelve minutes.
Dom: Is it, um. Um. Is it a woman, by chance?
Catherine: It's an australian man, and his name is James Webb. James Webb.
Dom: Gosh. Twelve minutes. I'll say 170.
Catherine: You're close. 276.
Dom: Wow.
Catherine: I did not divide how many wings that was in twelve minutes.
Dom: Let's do it. 23.
Catherine: 23 wings a minute. Have you ever eaten 23 wings in a sitting?
Dom: Oh, sure. I rag on buffalo wild wings. They used to have unlimited wings for, like, $10. We would just pound wings for an afternoon. I would do. We would easily do between 30 and 40 now. We would feel like we were gonna die as soon as we got home, but we got our money worth.
Catherine: Oh, yeah. You're the reason they don't have that promotion anymore. They're like, most. Most people tap out at 15 with this guy. He eats 50 every single day. I think the most wings I've ever eaten in a session is, like, eight. They were yours.
Catherine asked you to tell us how to make the perfect wing
Okay, so talk us through how to make the perfect wing.
Dom: Gonna give away my secrets? Quiz. What are the three most important things of the wing? Quality of the chicken? So you gotta start with that. For us, we get red bird chicken. It's kind of a higher end chicken. Don't do like the frozen Tyson wings. Don't do it. Not a good quality there. It sounds counterintuitive, you know, but you look at them and they're, like, gigantic. They're like jumbo wings, but they're gross. They're not flavorful. Get the red bird. They're. They're the ideal size. And you get a mix of drums and flats, which is important, as we discussed earlier. Start with the quality of chicken. We do air fryer wings, which.
Catherine: Okay.
Dom: Just air fryer in general is phenomenal for all sorts of foods, but especially wings. You can get the restaurant kind of quality crisp right at home, right in your kitchen with your air fryer. There's even usually, like, a setting for wings. At least on ours, there is. Uh, you don't even have to think. You can just push the chicken wing button.
Catherine: And I asked you to tell us how to make the perfect wing. You said to put, put it in the air fryer and hit the wing button.
Dom: There's a science, though.
Catherine: Okay?
Dom: You get that perfect level of crisp that way. At the very beginning of the cooking time, I sprinkle a little black pepper on those for some flavor. And again, when you flip them, some black pepper. And then my, I'm not going to give away the dom sauce, but just my traditional buffalo sauce is Frank's few splashes of tabasco. Definitely a little bit of a higher spice taste bud. I'll also do just a very tiny, tiny amount of butter, saucepan, microwave, whatever. And it kind of acts as, like, your. Your glue for the sauce, because if you don't do the butter, the sauce doesn't tend to stick as well. It holds the sauce together, and it definitely kind of adds sort of that additional buttery flavor which you need, I think, for the classic buffalo sauce, I don't go over the top with it. Not a huge fan of just grilled wings. I don't think it's the truly authentic version, and I think it changes the flavor a little bit. Still phenomenal. I don't do the marinades. Uh, it's, you know, it's different from just the authentic buffalo. But, yeah, typically, typically, I just stick to the air fryer.
Catherine: We need this. This is what we need. Filling is complicated, too, with heat disbursement or, you know, having to rotate things that would be similar on a frying pan too. But we don't really need to bring hot oil into the kitchen. So I'm loving your air fryer. And, you know, I bet that wasn't the answer people were expecting, because if we think about smoke, grills, and fried.
Dom: We got a smoker about a year ago. We did smoked wings for week one of the NFL season last year, and they turned out good. But I will say they weren't great. Okay. Admitting that,
00:20:00
Dom: I would much prefer the air fryer version.
Catherine: Yeah. More time dedicated to eating the wings.
Dom: That's right.
Catherine: The point when you're preparing them at home, the wings don't have any breading on them. If you're at a restaurant, do you prefer breaded or not breaded?
Dom: Non breaded now, to be fair, I haven't been to a ton of places where they have breaded. I think the main one, uh, is hooters, which I haven't been to in 15 years, I bet. What about you? When was your last breaded wing? Catherine?
Catherine: But now I'm thinking about, uh, the last time I went to hooters. Um, and by the way, I thought that their wings were gross. I understand that you don't go there for the wings, and that's a joke, but I thought that they would have been at least palatable. I wrote a, uh, wings podcast episode, and I completely forgot to talk about hooters. So thank you for bringing it up.
Dom: You have to.
Catherine: I'm just gonna start making sure I bring up hooters in every, uh, podcast.
Dom: It's a must.
Catherine: It's a must. They hide behind the breading. I don't like when foods hide behind things. My favorite pizza topping is plain cheese, because, you know, you can hide behind toppings, you can hide behind pepperoni. But if it's cheese, sauce, uh, crust, simple. And that's what I think people do with wings.
Dom: Can't have it. 100% agree.
The very last question I have for you is another divisive one about wings
Catherine: The very last question I have for you is another divisive one. But I'm going to make you commit to this. Ranch or blue cheese?
Dom: Oh, gosh, absolutely. Ranch, blue cheese. I am not a fan of it whatsoever. I think it's disgusting. Whether it's wings or salad or anything else, I can't do it. Can't do the crumbles. Just get it out. It should be banned. It should be a banned substance in the culinary world.
Catherine: Whoa. The French would like a word. We'll calm down on that.
Dom: Sorry. But I could do. Catherine, we could do a follow up podcast on ranch. And what makes good ranch? Who has the best? Because that, honestly, for me, that's almost as important, is the wing. You got to have a quality, complimentary ranch.
Catherine: For me, quality ranch, because, uh, I don't want it to be Chipotle ranch or avocado ranch or Ken's ranch. No offense, Ken, but no, like hidden valley craft.
Dom: No, it's got to be your own quality ranch. Yep.
Catherine: You are so right. If I get a plate of delicious looking wings in front of me and there is either a packet of ranch dressing, or I can tell that it's just out of a bottle. It ruins it. A buffalo wing is a wing with buffalo sauce on it. And anything outside of that, is that just a wing?
Dom: Correct. 100%. And that's fair, because I do do partake in other sauces.
Catherine: Okay, so buffalo, it doesn't mean spicy. It means it has to be classic buffalo sauce, right? Correct.
Dom: What was the word you used earlier? Started with an s. Shi something. It's gonna be my new shit. Yeah.
Catherine: Um, the shishito peppers one is hot out of. I would love it if shishito just became your new catchphrase. Like, how's it going, Dom? Shishito, buffalo.
Dom: It's gotta have some sort of cayenne vinegar. Actually, we haven't gotten into vinegar yet. I actually enjoy a little bit of vinegar. Even just that smell of the buffalo mixed with. Oh, my goodness. There's a place I was thinking of. I mean, you could smell the vinegar was almost not overpowering, but it. It just blended in with the buffalo so well. And it was one of those where you could barely smell it. It just sort of tickled. Tickled the nose hairs. Catherine, if you will. It just phenomenal.
Catherine: You talking about vinegar was so enjoyable. I can talk about wings, and it won't make my mouth burn, but hearing you talk about vinegar and smelling vinegar made my mouth salivate because. And not. Not even in I'm hungry way, because something about that I am reading that vinegar is an acid. So it's a actually another irritant, which is interesting that we pair it with capsaicin. We humans, we just want to be tortured while we eat. How can I dissolve myself quicker? Thank you so much for taking the time to tell us all about wings. Um, thank you to you, Dom. Thank you to the Dominic who requested them. And especially thank you to Dick winger, who, uh, supplied the hot sauce.
Dom: Dick winger, the goat of wings? Yes. May have to be your fantasy football team name this year.
Catherine: Yes. It's gonna be Dick Winger. Oh, my God. Um, so thanks for everything, Dom. We are the best.
Dom: Of course. Thanks for having me on. It was fun.
Catherine: Um, this wing's for you, everyone. If you love men's stuff podcast
00:25:00
Catherine: and you want to interact with me, you can follow me on instagram and menstuffpodcast. Also, you can send me an email at menstuffpodcastmail. Uh.com. this can be anything from suggestions to things to talk about, feedback, or if you just want to say hi. Other than that, I would love it if you could give me a five star review on whatever platform you listen on, as well as telling and sharing with your friends. Everyone, I'm Catherine, and this is menstrual, the podcast on man things. I wrote, uh, a Wings podcast episode, and I completely forgot to talk about hooters.
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