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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:16)
Hello, welcome back for Yes and Otherwise. Today we're joined
Faith Clarke (00:19)
Understand
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:19)
by Tamala Gordon, author of Hood Wellness. So excited to have you here. Thank you for joining us.
Faith Clarke (00:25)
Hi, Tamala.
Tamela J. Gordon (00:25)
Hello.
Thank you for having me. This is a pleasure.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:29)
Awesome. Well, we're gonna start gently. We're gonna break a little ice and I have to give full credit. This was your question, Tamela for us, which is I feel bad like a bad host that we didn't have a good I didn't have a good question ready. But I know you from Threads and you are always sharing books there. Like you do such a great job of sharing really wonderful things. I've learned about great books from you. you said let's share what we're reading right now because that can tell us a lot about.
ourselves and our interests and also lead to good conversation. So since you asked the question, did you want to start?
Tamela J. Gordon (01:01)
I I always think these this the best question to ask at dinner parties with your friend, whatever, that weird lump of silence because even if you're not reading something, you're gonna grab on to what you were reading that tickled your pickle. You know, it's just a great way to like have organic conversation. but right now it's really funny. I just finished reading American Scoundrel.
which was a book a biography of Roy Cohn, who was just a horrible, horrible man. He was a a American attorney, and had a heavy hand in in things in New York City, specifically from like the sixties to the eighties. and was also Donald Trump's mentor. And I I never really get into I I'm into political nonfiction, but I really don't nothing about him or his what orbits his world really interests me.
But I was learning so much about that era, McCarthyism, all this stuff that like I hear about and I kinda know, but I don't really know. And so this book actually helped me have a conversation about you know, McCarthyism specifically, without checking my Wikipedia. and then from there it was bringing me back to all these other scandals and stories in New York City. So there was a book that came out earlier this year called
fear and fury and it was about Bernie Getz and the Reagan 80s and just what racism looked like in 1980s in the media and in New York City. And it's written by Heather Ann Thompson. And so I basically am just in this Black hole of all things about New York City. I'm also reading The Power Broker, which is that 1200 page book about Robert Moses. And it is really just
I you don't realize how geeked out you can be about something until you really start poking at it. And the more that I learned about yesterday's New York City and just our our landscape here, the more that I love reading about
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:55)
You're reading a lot
of nonfiction at the moment. And I've been really focused on reading more fiction. So I'll be going in a different direction. because I just finished, The Book of Unknown Americans by Christina Henriquez. it's from a couple of years, it might even be 10 years old at this point, but
Talks about the immigrant experience in America. and it was really good. And then I just started a YA book called Watch Us Rise by Renee Watson. I'm only a little bit into it. I don't read a lot of YA, but I'm I'm really excited about it because my son's getting a little older and I'm excited to have some books that I can present to him because he's reading a lot more chapter books. I want to find more books that talk to him about.
varied experiences beyond just his own. he's read a lot of like Wimpy Kid and that kind of stuff. And I want him to have some experiences reading about folks who don't just look like him.
Faith, how about you?
Faith Clarke (03:45)
it's hard to follow Tamela though, but I
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:48)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (03:48)
am so my my my kind of veg out reading is romance novels and so I'm
I've started to based on our what's the name of our friend she
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:59)
Alicia Galati,
Faith Clarke (04:01)
challenged me with the kind of representation in what we're reading. So I've been trying to get the free Kindle to offer me romances with Black women. So women loving women, Black women. And so found one with
that's set in Portugal with two New Yorkers. And I'm like, that's cool. Cause I've been thinking about Portugal as a would I live there? And what's hard? So there's on the beach, some little thing and put and then love is in the air. But I I there's something so familiar when I'm listening to Black women just
Kiki with each other in a romance lava, so that's that's been a lot of fun. And then I'm also reading and listening to the Island of Seawomen. This is by Lisa C. And the Island of Seawomen is set both in 2008 and in 1938. So it's in South Korea, Jeju Island, and Seawomen were these the women on Jeju Island, they they kind of from almost birth were taught to dive.
And get things from the sea, and it was part of the economy of Jewel Allen. So it's fiction, but it's a weird, matrifocal, not matriarchal. So the play with the patriarchy is interesting because the men have to take care of the children while the women are diving, but they can't. So you have all these men with crying children, women come out to the sea, feed them, and go back into it. And it's also set when Japan was in charge of
Korea and so colonizer stuff, it patriarchy and yeah, supremacist idea a lot of that is there, but from the point of view of this narrator who's a child. So just said in very matter of fact and simple language. And so I'm I'm also enjoying that. The island of seawomen.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:50)
interested to check that out
Tamela J. Gordon (05:51)
And speaking of fiction, because I forgot, there is this really good, really, really good book out called Carrying by Samantha Josephs. And it is about a trans woman who gets pregnant. And she's married. And it is so good. It is so funny. I mean like funny funny, like laugh out loud, funny.
It's weird, it's all these things, but I I couldn't put it down. It's called Carrying and it's by Samantha Josephs.
Faith Clarke (06:22)
well, Tamela as we start, I am curious about oftentimes we have stories that are following us.
Over long periods of time, and it's almost like they become recurring themes. So if you think about the last three months, what's a story that you feel you've been living? again, again, again and again, or even observing again and again.
Tamela J. Gordon (06:43)
It's so funny because I just recently had a conversation with a friend and I said this whole year I feel like my life was like the first twenty minutes of a bad Reese Witherspoon movie. where she's just so unsure of herself, And it's not so much from a place of uncertainty. I just feel like I've been doing a lot of starting over and I'm forty four and it's not uncommon.
to be any age at this point in starting over because just of the way of the world. And the older you get, the distance is a little further and you're not as whimsical with the starting over a as I was in my twenties. the mistakes are so much louder, And so the forgiveness margin has to be bigger. And so I just feel like I'm always starting over
But not in a way that I'm behind, in a way where I I'm just really getting my footing. And you know, I don't know how people born in the 21st century navigate the world without knowing that things like quicksand existed, Because like being in the eighties, like quicksand was this thing where you were like afraid of it because it was always in movies, and then you just woke up one day and it was like
We're afraid of the real world, so we don't think about quick I still think about quicksand and I still compare my life, you know, to these moments where I'm kind of like sinking. but when I'm starting over, I don't necessarily feel like I'm sinking, just that I'm not going as as forward as I'd like to. and so I I think that it's been a lot of exploring, especially the past three months, a lot of exploring what it means to start over but not be a failure at whatever it is I'm starting over from.
Faith Clarke (08:24)
So what's the
Tamela J. Gordon (08:24)
That's so
much deeper than I was I was planning on, mind you. You guys should have background music because I would cry watching me to give that little
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (08:34)
No, but that's so
good because I think so many of us can relate to it. I was thinking of you, Faith, too, just with, you know, I don't know that you know this, Tamela, but Faith has just relocated back to Jamaica after being gone for a couple of decades. And
Faith Clarke (08:46)
Yeah, I was
I use my kid as an example. So twenty five years as a I I was the last time I was in Jamaica for an extended period of time.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (08:53)
Yeah. And it's sort
not a starting over, but it's and I think we all have those moments of of that sort of what's the next thing? And then when you reach a certain age, it just it it feels different. I love what you said about the whimsy. 'Cause I'm like, I remember that whimsy when I was twenty something and just picked up and moved
Tamela J. Gordon (09:11)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:11)
across country and it like, Well, this will be a fun adventure and like it changes when you have kids and responsibilities and a mortgage and whatever. So
Tamela J. Gordon (09:14)
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:18)
But as you said, yeah, as you
said, the price is higher. the cost, the cost of the thing is more, it it weighs more,
Tamela J. Gordon (09:24)
Absolutely.
Faith Clarke (09:25)
you know. But I'm curious about because you said, you know, it is a repeated theme. So what's an earlier memory of this feeling of starting over and maybe starting
Tamela J. Gordon (09:35)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (09:36)
over without failure that you feel like you can share?
Tamela J. Gordon (09:39)
if I'm being really honest, I'm the youngest of four. I'm child free intentionally. the only one of my siblings that has never been married, never had a kid. And so I've never had this pressure of destination. I never had this pressure o outside of try to be a successful writer.
And even that was so abstract. So for decades I lived this life of it didn't matter if I was waiting tables or selling a little bit of weed or doing both or maybe taking some classes in community college. If I was doing that in conjunction to writing, then I was at the place that I needed to be. And that was always my metric. when I got my first traditionally published book contract,
in twenty twenty two and I was forty. And that was probably the first glimpse that I had of you're gonna have to park eventually, or at least look like you're on the road and know where you wanna park. because the dream was never bigger than the book. And so then you I receive it and there's all this other stuff to it, and I'm like, that is not even part of my dream, girl.
I just wanted this book on the shelf. I never thought about what it takes for it to get there and what it means to sustain a career as a writer, what that means to say yes and to say no and all these things. And so a lot of when I say starting over is really not even kind of starting over if I'm if I if if my therapist were to tell it, it is really starting anew. because I didn't ditch anything. It all led to here.
but when I look back at it, I I I absolutely miss the version of myself that did not have this thought of, but then what are you gonna do? And then what are you gonna do? And then that was a thing that was not present until I actually got close to the dream. And then once I got the dream and it was like, my god, I need another dream. I had this dream, I've been writing this dream like a unicorn for decades, and then you get it.
And then you must dream again? It's so exhausting. So, you know, a lot of I think for myself, especially having written a book about good wellness, which is deeply invested in understanding where you are so that you can figure out where you want to be and what that looks like to get there with what you've got. I know I only understood that from the language of
scarcity a little bit. And so to be on the other side of accomplishment, it is this starting anew. And so I I love that question because I love any excuse to return to those versions of me that was in thinking about, gosh, and then what are you gonna do if it does work out? You know, like that part of me that was just like, I'm just gonna do it. You know, it's like how we were saying about a job. I can remember being in my twenties and calling a friend and like,
I just got fired. Is that crazy? And laughing and and then going to Chili's and having the guile to pay for it, And should that have happened to me today? at one point I was part of the 600,000 Black women who had lost my income. And there was no whimsy to be found in that, There was no there was no saving grace other than realizing that like the it's not always gonna stay dark.
And so I have to find a way to get through this with not hating myself. And how
Faith Clarke (13:16)
Yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (13:16)
did I do that when I was in my twenties? I kind of just believed it was gonna work out.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:20)
you said that time of scarcity, and yet what you just ended with is that it's this abundance thinking of it'll work out, And somewhere along the way, I think for so many of us, that starts to get pushed out of us, we begin to believe less is possible in some way, which is wild. Yeah. I mean, I just can relate to so much to what you're saying and like the feeling of freedom.
in that I just got fired in that wild that feels so free and yet it's also like what we're running from so much.
Faith Clarke (13:50)
So I am curious about because I feel when certainly I'm thinking about myself, I try to think, what would I say to my client? When I'm in a moment, I'm like, what would I say to a client? Cause I have wisdom that I just don't apply to myself, I hand it over. I think the wisdom and the medicine we need is often the medicine we're giving to other people. So you just finished this book.
what's in your book that is the medicine for the moment you found yourself in when you finish the book and you're like, I need a new horizon, I need a new dream, something is gonna need to be recrafted or renewed. What's your wisdom from your book or just from your own body and mind about that moment
Tamela J. Gordon (14:36)
This is when I get really happy that I included contributors in my book so that I wouldn't have to rely on my little mantras. And I didn't put any mantras in Hood Wellness. but there are some stories in Hood Wellness that remind me the power that we harness when we're in the middle of ugly healing. and there are a few stories like there's Joshua.
Who he's in his mid-20s now and happily married, but when he was eight years old, growing up in the south side of Chicago, he was attacked by a pit bull and it resulted in the loss of 80% of his face. And so his childhood and teen years are very much informed by reconstructive surgeries and and just very intense body probing, And
A lot of his reflection comes from the awareness of my doctor loves me, my nurse loves me, my mom loves me, and these people are part of his community now. And he shares this story about how he was healing from a r rather intense surgery and his mom had put a rose bush in the backyard because he liked to sit by the window and then he just had his and that was literally the only beauty.
that he felt that he had access to. school was really tough and kids were tough on him and and even going through the f the physicality of school at at some point was tough on him. but he refers to this rosebush like it was a currency, like it was it like it gave him something. And so much of it was because of what he was able to find in that moment. And there's also a story by Holly, who has since passed
But she was living with terminal cancer and she was exploring what joy looked like when you're dying. and it was a really tough conversation, but it was something she was really dedicated to because she was aware that her time was super finite and how do I want to spend it. And so when I go back to good wellness, I am always reminded that this thing that I feel.
And any given moment that is so horrible, that is weighing me down, that hurts really bad, will also pass. And that even if it does not, it's not the total sum of my experience. And there's something that a lot of us say in Hood Bonus, which is that be inspired, but don't be weird about it. Like, you know, you can take my little stories or Joshua's story and find the parts of it that that are applicable to anyone at any given time.
But to romanticize it, we're so special, we're so strong, that's gonna get weird. And so times like right now where a lot of my challenges are are like inner, and financial. it isn't necessarily me that I look to in Hood Wellness, it's the people that were really in the middle of a fire and understood this is when I'm gonna make an important turn.
And I I think
Faith Clarke (17:40)
Yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (17:40)
that's it I remember right now.
Faith Clarke (17:42)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:42)
Look, you just said ugly healing.
And I love that.
Tamela J. Gordon (17:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:46)
I love that term. Because I think in the mainstream wellness space, whatever we want to call it, the white-centric wellness space, there is a lot of that romanticizing. it's like your healing, your grief, all of it needs to be have a sort of a soft aura,
A shining light, and I don't think that feels accessible to most people because the truth is it's ugly healing. It's not pretty, it's not linear, it's not simple, it's not just a bubble bath, it's rage, it's yelling, it's screaming, it's guttural crying, it's you know, it's all of
Tamela J. Gordon (18:16)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:19)
these things. So I just love that you share that and the idea of not romanticizing wellness work.
thank you for that.
Tamela J. Gordon (18:26)
No, thank
you. Because that really is, you know, the heart of wellness. And a lot of it was built out of the reality that I mean I was a I was a wellness girly for years with my little water bottle, my little yoga pants, honey. And I was, you know, a New York City wellness girl like that. So I was super obnoxious about it because I'm like, I'm the best of the best. and also know, like if you hear anything in the background, I live at home with my elderly parents and it just can't be helped.
so, you know, a lot of my mentality I think comes from realizing that there's no way that I'm gonna fix any of my problems if I'm still using this kind of attitude, this mentality, because it's not applicable. And so
I remember it was when I was getting a lot of my teeth work done and I needed dentures and there's nothing sexy about that. And I was in food service for twenty years in New York City and I was super thin and I was making money off of the ability to present in the way that was necessary in this industry. and then I was getting older and my body was changing and I wasn't as fast as I used to be. so all of these things were kind of waking me up to the reality of
What I'm identifying is wellness is literally killing me. And so a lot of hood wellness is about that ugly healing because it wasn't until the healing got ugly that life really did start to change for me. I had this idea of what beauty was supposed to be, you know, and I I think we a a lot of us do. but I I really believed it, you know, and and and so there were these moments with my dental care where I would think like,
that I'm no longer beautiful or I can no longer be that beautiful. you know, it can sound shallow, but it was actually Holly who, and it was a couple of months before her death, I think understood it more than anyone because of this change and shift of body. And it was in conversations with people like her that I was understanding ugly healing is something that a lot of us are going to have to do whether we like it or not.
you don't get to choose. You know what I mean? We don't we think we get to choose until you break your leg or until someone dies unexpectedly or until you find out that the money's not there. There's so many different scenarios that happen that change how we identify wellness and beauty and all these things. And so I remember when I first signed with wellness and I I thought to myself, Well, here's a list of things that no one is ever gonna know about and I could never talk about. And
Then when I thought about what the draft would look like, it was very Mel Robbins, you know? And that's the thing about wellness is you can really get by talking a lot of shit. You don't need citation. You don't need to be a doctor. You can call yourself a doctor and not even be you didn't like you know, I wish I was exaggerating, but this is a real thing. So I was very aware with the hood wellness, like, okay, I'm not a doctor.
And I'm not a scholar. I'm not a coach of any kind. But I have this research about what it looks like when we do this together and when we do apart, and what it looks like when when you try something that is catered to your intersection opposed to a mainstream ideology. and so it went back to ugly healing.
and it's funny because there are a lot of people who still don't know really what to do with wellness. some people call it a memoir, some people call it social science. It's got awards for both. And I think that it speaks more to the reality of what wellness looks like when it's not mainstream.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:08)
I would like to hear a little bit more about how that transformation happened for you, going from being so bought in that, you know, like you said.
I'm I'm the best at wellness girly, to this place of being able to not only be in your ugly healing, but share with others about ugly healing. I mean, there's there's a big difference even between there's a chasm between those two things, and to go from, you know, I got my water bottle, my yoga mat, and I'm like the best at this. what was that unhooking process?
Tamela J. Gordon (22:37)
I really I think it went back to my work in food service and I was making pretty good money and I was living in New York City and I had a really fun lifestyle. I traveled and I had friends and outwardly I was healthy enough, but I was also really depressed. and
I never looked better, but I was just really miserable. And the more that I tried to look at okay, well what if I go back to school? And what if I move and find another location? And none of those things are really answering what my issue was. And the fear that if I wasn't in food service then I wasn't gonna make it, it was really scary. This idea that I only have this one skill.
And so I have to honor this skill even if my body is breaking down. you know, at that point, in 20 years, I truly had lost count of the times that I did on the receiving end of sexual misconduct, sexual assaults, racism, downright violent experiences. and the sad thing about it is you really do live within the the kind of mentality.
and it and for anyone that follows me and I talk a lot about Anthony Bourdain because I had grown up in the industry really loving Anthony Bourdain and really agreeing with so much of what he had said. and there is a an author, a woman cook, Geraldine De Ruiter who wrote If you can't take the heat. she she made a statement about the bad boy chef.
And how we lean into that idea. And and I I mention this only because you think about, well, how did I get this way? And I I really feel like I'm still unraveling. Because I had read her book about twice and I was like, she's got this wrong about Anthony Burdain, man. Like he was for the people. He totally understood it. And so I go back to his books and then I go back to City Conf Kitchen Confidential and I realized how much internalized misogyny lived in my body.
That I absolutely agreed with this man as he made commentary suggesting that in order to be a woman cook, you had to tolerate sexual misconduct and you had to fight it back like a man. And if you did not do that, then you were not gonna make it an issue. I absolutely believe that. I remember highlighting that and being like, exactly, and that's why I make so much money. And I look back and I'm reading that and I'm like, my god, you poor girl.
And that was not very long ago. Do you know what I mean? That version of Tamela was not very long ago. And and she voted for Clinton and she thought she knew what time it was. I think that there were things that, you know, the gift and the curse that I have is when my back is against the wall, I kind of will have a self awareness enough to make a change. But then on the flip side, my back has to be against the wall for me to find self awareness.
And I think that it did start in the city with my job and realizing, well, in order for me to make this money, I've been showing up as this performance of this woman and using my body in this way. so there was that kind of slow unraveling, but even you know, and then your body changes and you realize then I realize like, my god, I wouldn't even be able to make the money today that I was making ten years ago because I don't even have that hot that hot bot anymore,
So I think that there are these steps to it. And and I would hope that with Hoodwellness and with more of these conversations with women, that we kind of collectively hold space for that individual awareness of like, whoa, I was so wrong about that. Or I've never actually considered that that was working against me. because there's a lot of that in Hoodwellness in many of us that are finding out our our either our new intersection.
or awakening to the intersection that we always embodied and understanding, crap, life is different for me now. Because I know this, so I can't do that, or I can't go there, or I can't speak this way anymore. And so I I think and it's just kinda like how white people use the word book. The trud of it was, you know, a a social consciousness. It wasn't you didn't just wake up and then you were awake forever. It is a continuation.
of awareness and I think that that's how I look at it opposed to one defining moment.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:56)
I had a conversation with Geraldine DeRuiter for this podcast in its previous iteration. So we'll link to that as well. she's fantastic. And you so much of what you just said there was like really resonating with me and my own experiences as well of sort of, you know, I worked in the tech space for a while and this the the I think these are the last gasps of my own internalized misogyny.
revealed themselves there where I found myself doing that same contorting yourself to convince yourself that no me being able to be in this and and the way that I'm tolerating it, it's because I'm like, I'm one of the cool ones. your brain does this stuff.
Tamela J. Gordon (27:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:32)
And being on the other side of it now, you look at that version of yourself and you're like, what was I doing? I think you almost have to get to that place of total cognitive dissonance.
To be able to finally start to just say, what? This is this doesn't even make sense anymore how I'm participating, and to be able to kind of start to shed that stuff, yeah. I just I can so relate, Tamela And then you get to this
Tamela J. Gordon (27:53)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:53)
place, the gift of aging as women, is you reach a place where no matter what you do, and I don't care how much you pull, talk, whatever, how much you spend, you can no longer fit the male
gaze version of beauty, of our standard of beauty, because that version of beauty includes a youth that even the best facelift just don't replicate, and certainly as a Black woman, like you can't ever fit that model, because that model we know is young, it's white, it's blonde, it's blue, it's thin, whatever. And you reach a place where you're like, I was trying to play a game that at my best.
I could reach for a few minutes. And you, at my
Tamela J. Gordon (28:30)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:31)
at my thinnest, at my most beautiful by the standard, I was also my most miserable. And I wonder how many of us can relate to that feeling. So thank you for naming it. and I think it's important often for people to hear from people who are now writing on the topic and who have done a lot more of the reading
To also say, and I was I was in that system too, baby.
Tamela J. Gordon (28:54)
and that's the joke I always make about hood wellness is you know, you talk about body positivity and I could be sitting sandwiched between, you know, someone with a mild vitilago on their feet and another woman with stretch marks and then another woman who is, you know, a size sixteen and you want me to talk about dental care. And it's kind of like
I we're all having some body stuff, but I don't want to be the pioneer and I shouldn't be the pioneer because they're like fifty million Americans walking around with all kinds of dental care business going on. I think that it's the thing where representation matters, but also holding space for the conversation matters. Because your body is gonna change.
good ways, bad ways, positive ways, temporary ways and permanent. And to be a woman is to almost always be frightened of this change. Because what is it gonna do to my weight? What's it gonna do to my skin? What's it gonna do to my eyes? and there's so much pressure and we can acknowledge the pressure, but we don't really have a place to talk about what to practically do when the body changes or or how that even feels. it makes me think about
I don't remember the woman's name. She wrote that book, Adult Braces, So Lindy
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:10)
Lindy West. Lindy West.
Tamela J. Gordon (30:12)
West, thank you. reading this book as a fellow fat woman, I was blown away at her ability to talk about how she feared showers because that was the most intimate time that she had with her body and she didn't want that.
And I don't have that feeling, but I had a feeling that a woman could express that. And I was just pouring into these pages, literally gasping, I can't believe she said it out loud. I'm grateful that she said it out loud, but I can't believe that she said it out loud. You can't even find anyone to freaking talk about it with because they're so busy talking about her marriage in Reddit.
You know what I mean? Yeah like these moments where we say that we want the real, but when the real is presented, we get weird because it's not pretty and it sounds desperate and it sounds pitiful. And that's what sometimes it looks like that too. And I was eager to share certain stories of when I was pitiful. not to
Just for the last, but also for the reality. there are these stages in hood wellness that I address that are recurring with my teeth. And it went from it it begins with, my god, I'm gonna die, I can't believe this is happening, to gosh, this is still such a drag, but you know I gotta go on with the day to eventually like it's not that big of a deal. But I wonder, can I give head? it really did look like that, And that's not overnight. That was over like
monks and therapy and having good girlfriends to talk to about it and going in the Facebook group chat and learning about it in in that space. But I realized in that doing it, nobody else has that space. I should not have to work that hard on the internet to find out just about the daily comings and goings with prosthetic teeth.
And so a lot of that in good wellness is about being the resource of representation. Because we're going through it, There are two books that came out this year about Perimenopause, one from Brooke Shields and one from Naomi Watts. I want to hear about Perimenopause from a millionaire. I wanna hear about your itchy earlobes and you probably have an earlobe allergist.
See what I'm saying? That's not representing moi. It's technically a conversation about it. But I want to know from someone whose upper lip periodically sweats. Like mine. You know?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:46)
Somebody whose
body maybe looks a little like mine because my experience as a person in a larger body with peramenopause is I have been learning is very different from women in smaller bodies. And I'm also learning that how much women in smaller bodies, and not just them, but all sorts of people are quick to let me know their thoughts about how I might be able to solve my problem of being hot all the time if I would just drop some pounds. It's like yeah, that
Tamela J. Gordon (33:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:10)
I don't need to hear about that Brooke Shields too. No thanks. Yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (33:13)
Hello. You know,
Faith Clarke (33:14)
Yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (33:15)
I stopped
reading it when she talks about passing out at a Starbucks and Bradley Cooper was there to aid it. Shut up. Just shut up. Just shut up. Returned it immediately.
Faith Clarke (33:30)
I think there's something about as you talked about being so moved, but did she say it? the deconstruction of the old story is so isolating. Because the old story comes with a crowd, you know, the wellness girlies are all over there, or whoever, whatever your story, you know. And so as you're doing this deconstruction, there's a part of it that's like.
Who do I talk to? Because I d I can't I can't let anybody know, even when the questions are forming. And so
Tamela J. Gordon (33:59)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (34:00)
just as you're saying, the the need for us to see each other in that moment to say, you're like me, even if it's not teeth. it might be about hip, you know, or whatever. It's it's yeah, because it's so lonely.
And I think it's interesting with your
Tamela J. Gordon (34:17)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (34:17)
book about communal wellness. what's your advice for people who are in this process and just right up there with the isolation? Like I'm the only one I know as a Black woman who whatever it is. how do we get communal?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:32)
Or or I think my s
me specifically, because I remember the moment like you almost made me cry, Faith, because I remember that version of me where I was by all standards supposed to be as happy as anyone can be, and I was miserable and how lonely I felt. And I can remember that I remember sitting in my closet hiding and crying because I didn't I felt like I wasn't allowed to say I was unhappy. I think a similar place where you're at in some ways, Tamela Not not that you're unhappy now, but this like
I had I have everything I'm supposed to have and it's not like what's next and that's scary and all that. And yeah, and it I I love the question. It just I I fully relate to it. So that that version of that person who's sitting alone, feeling so alone.
Tamela J. Gordon (35:11)
Yes. And that I think that that's also the key with community care is that it's not transactional and it's very poured in being poured into. And a lot of that pouring comes from just compassion and just visit literally, legitimately, visibility. and going back to wanting to know you're not alone, Hood Wellness ends with an essay by Ledea Joyce, who is a Memphis born Black woman that lives with HIV.
And we had a lot of discussion about what her piece was going to look like because more often than not, she has to come in with a very informed, almost informational, educational kind of delivery. And I wanted to be really clear, you're actually having a conversation with another woman who literally just found out and doesn't have anyone to talk to about it. And that was kind of
the goal of Hood Wellness was having it be a resource of someone who does not want to walk around with the HIV book or the, you know, body dysmorphia book or the the dental care book, but can still have the access to an individual who is going through that. And a lot of that I think we don't realize that silence and like fear, shame loves silence.
Shame loves silence. Shame loves when you promise to never talk to anyone about it. And when you keep it to yourself and when it's your burden. Shame loves when you surrender to the idea that even though everyone goes through it, for me it's just so much different because dot dot dot. They love when you believe that without questioning it. And for so many of us, especially those of us that are marginalized, there is a great shame in not being able to
keep up the pace or present in that fashionable way that a lot of people appear to be presenting. And opposed to being honest and saying, like, I wasn't even supposed to show up like that to begin with. So I can't even use that as a metric. We surrender to the idea that we can't. And so a lot of the liberation comes from the dialogue and comes from watching someone else say, I was never supposed to.
I never could. I don't want to. You have to literally see it and you have to know what it looks like to be able to even consider that you can do it too. And so I think that on a lot of these conversations we have, it goes back to ugly healing. no one is truly inspired by the polished version. And even even when you look at the people who have got came here for the bottom up.
You look at someone like everyone hates Tabitha Brown now. But let me tell you something. When she was driving the Uber, okay, and had the little apple pop, they could not get enough. They could not get enough because it is that that vision that that is almost reflective of where we are. And so I don't aspire for anyone to use us in that way and want to keep us boxed in and in that finding your way to get to where you're trying to be.
But also it's important to be visible on that end so that other people can see. I know that I needed to see it. I needed to see a lot of Black women writers make it on their own via blogging, via freelancing and self publishing before I was like, I'm gonna try to do that too. I don't think I ever would have attempted of doing that if it wasn't for that boom of Black women writers in the twenty ten specifically.
that were really big and bloggy. There was a time when, we had our own reality shows and, you know, we're getting book deals and it was this huge thing. and I feel bad now for the Substack era because everyone and their grandma has a Substack. And so I imagine it's pretty hard to envision yourself making it off of that one platform. But there was a time, you know, when we had that kind of visibility. I think that visibility matters in more ways than we give credit to
sometimes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:19)
I agree. And this is gonna be strange, maybe, for some people, because if you're not at this place, you may not feel this yet. But I want to speak to the part you talked about of like, I never like this dream was the dream, and now I'm in this place of like and then and now what? that leveling up kind of feeling that we can sometimes reach. If you haven't reached that, you may not understand or
be able to find the empathy for the fact that that can also be yet a new experience of the same even if it's not rooted in I'm miserable, it can be like I'm happy and yet I also am feeling like I don't know what's next. Yep, all the same stuff can come up.
Faith Clarke (39:49)
Isolation straight up. Yeah, fair stuff. Your community is gone. Yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (39:53)
Exposure,
I always say there should be a support group for people who become mildly successful. Because the mildly The mildly successful
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:03)
The mildly successful support group. I think that that's perfect.
Faith Clarke (40:06)
Yeah, I just I had a little bit of success
now and I'm like, What? What? Yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (40:10)
just
enough to be freaked out and almost sabotage it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:14)
Yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (40:15)
there was a there was a moment with hood wellness where I was like, I don't think Oprah's gonna pick me for the club. I think I've done all this in vain. I think I shall die now in shame. And because of this pressure of, you know, you're supposed to make it and people are looking at you because they want to know what the hell that's gonna look like.
And you're like, I think it still looks like me wearing my old clothes and it still looks like me. but there are podcasts and there are reviews and there are interviews and there are public appearances. And all these things are done in in the midst of deep insecurities and and financial woes and you know, fractured relationships with people who think that you've made it.
And and you're like, someone show me on the map where the it is, because if it is where I'm standing, I'm telling you someone is lying on me. And then
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:11)
Okay.
Tamela J. Gordon (41:12)
eventually you realize, like, holy crap, this is making it. And it's not the making it part, it's how I'm receiving it part. And it's the structure around me and the community around me. but it is really hard. I mean it, you know, I I'm blessed to say that.
It's been about two and a half years since Hood Wellness is released and I am still booked and busy and and you know the book continues to reach audiences that it was meant to. but with that comes the perpetual challenge of being seen and engaging and sharing. You know, it's it's I mean it if if someone wants to be a celebrity, they're not gonna write a book. You don't write a book because you want a lot of attention.
If you think of all of the arts, I'm pretty positive we are like the bottom five of who gets the most celebrity, all of that stuff. but also we live in the internet world. you wrote a book, but you're also a brand. It's just such it's just such a dichotomy. And I think
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:17)
Yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (42:18)
that the expectation is you are supposed to be grateful
for all exposure all the time and capitalize on it and make your sub stack and your newsletter and keep your visibility and keep writing regularly and maintain your bateness and keep it clean on social media but still stay edgy. It's so exhausting.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:44)
But not too edgy, just right amount of edgy. Yeah. Of course,
Tamela J. Gordon (42:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:46)
because you don't want to isolate too many people. what does your ugly healing look like now through this process?
Tamela J. Gordon (42:53)
It looks a lot like me asking myself, what am I allowing myself to do? and a lot of that is because of, just self-imposed restrictions and so much fluff about what you hear about the industry, some of it true, some of it false, most of it not even applicable to me, but all of it having an impression on me. And and so a lot of my ugly healing lately has looked like
being really honest with what I'm trying to do and the direction that I'm going in. And it's a level of accountability that I don't think that I'm used to as a writer, but that I I understand now is necessary as a creator and as someone who, this is a career. and it it's honestly it's not pretty.
Because it was so much more fun to just kinda dream and be whimsical and be like, I don't care if I get it, And now it's like I actually really want this and I'm going to work towards this and allow myself to cry if it doesn't work out and continue to do something else. There's a lot of ugly healing that comes into this because of the growth. Because so many older versions of me would just not go for it or go for it and be so wounded internally.
that it doesn't work out and just take it so personally, I think that the ability to move within this work with integrity and consistency has called on some ugly healing.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:22)
Well, I love that you share that because I don't think we always talk about that part of
Actually things have gone really well and now I'm also scared and feeling lonely and all that. So thank you for sharing. Faith, do you mind wrapping us up
Faith Clarke (44:32)
I keep thinking as I'm listening to you about the circle of women. And it doesn't have to be women. In my mind, it's a w circle of women because it's skirts. It's women holding out skirts, forming a circle around.
a woman in ugly healing. And basically
Tamela J. Gordon (44:48)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (44:49)
saying, just mind your business, don't look over here. You know, it it's a it's a kind of banding around. And I I recently just thought about what does it mean for me to even imagine myself surrounded.
Because I think in these questions, in these moments, we don't want to be alone. And so just appreciating that whether we're talking about physical wellness and health, emotional, whatever, or in these transition moments with books and brands and
we just need to circle around us so that when we're having that freak out, we can go through the process. We can birth whatever is needing to be birthed. And it's just like everybody else is mind your business. For the people who need to see,
Tamela J. Gordon (45:26)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (45:27)
see, you know. But sometimes I'm not ready yet. It's too vulnerable.
I just need to ask the question and go through the thing, I I'll tell you about it soon, but I just need to kind of be upfront with whatever it is that's showing up for me. So thank you so much.
Tamela what are you saying yes
to today
Tamela J. Gordon (45:45)
Today I'm saying yes to nap.
Faith Clarke (45:47)
Naps who speaking to my very soul. and and yes and yes to naps and
Tamela J. Gordon (45:54)
And is in addition to, Okay.
Faith Clarke (45:56)
Anything at all you want to make it.
Tamela J. Gordon (45:58)
okay. animal crackers and apple juice post nap
Faith Clarke (46:02)
Okay, good.
Tamela J. Gordon (46:04)
So good.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:05)
Talk about the whimsy.
Faith Clarke (46:06)
Yeah,
we're saying yes to whimsy today, yeah, yeah.
Tamela J. Gordon (46:08)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (46:10)
Yes to naps, yes to animal crackers and Apple juice, Otherwise,
Tamela J. Gordon (46:16)
otherwise touching grass.
Faith Clarke (46:18)
Mmm,
Tamela J. Gordon (46:18)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (46:19)
this is a good one.
Tamela J. Gordon (46:20)
That's probably my recipe
to writing, to be honest with you. If I can slip that in midday, I can get at least an additional two hours writing.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:29)
That's fantastic. It reminds me of preschool
Faith Clarke (46:29)
Nice, nice, nice.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:31)
or kindergarten when we got to have our little a nap and a nap and animal crackers and apple just and how much happier were we all then? So I love it. Thank you, Tamela Now people who want to read
Tamela J. Gordon (46:39)
That's how I brought it back. That's how it brought.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:42)
that's all right.
Faith Clarke (46:42)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:43)
If people want to read Hood Wellness, I know it's available in all the places, but is there a particular place they want you want people to go to find it?
Tamela J. Gordon (46:49)
I am on social media, she writes to live, on Instagram and threads, and I started a sub stack, Broke Woman Writer for Hire. And you can always find me on Patreon, especially Patreon, because right now I'm doing something called the Writers Book Club. And we meet weekly for virtual write-ins and we read a book and there's a monthly theme and we learn and we're just a bunch of nerds and we have a lot of fun.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:13)
I love that. That sounds fantastic. Well, we'll put everything in the show notes so people can find all of those places and find you and your work. Thank you so much.
Tamela J. Gordon (47:21)
Thank you, this is fun.
Faith Clarke (47:21)
Thank you so much.