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Hosted by Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Megan Hunter, MBA, It’s All Your Fault! High Conflict People explores the five types of people who can ruin your life—people with high conflict personalities and how they weave themselves into our lives in romance, at work, next door, at school, places of worship, and just about everywhere, causing chaos, exhaustion, and dread for everyone else.
They are the most difficult of difficult people — some would say they’re toxic. Without them, tv shows, movies, and the news would be boring, but who wants to live that way in your own life!
Have you ever wanted to know what drives them to act this way?
In the It’s All Your Fault podcast, we’ll take you behind the scenes to understand what’s happening in the brain and illuminates why we pick HCPs as life partners, why we hire them, and how we can handle interactions and relationships with them. We break down everything you ever wanted to know about people with the 5 high conflict personality types: narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, antisocial/sociopath, and paranoid.
And we’ll give you tips on how to spot them and how to deal with them.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict people. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. So we are really happy you're here today. Thank you for listening. As usual, today we are going to answer your questions. We always say at every episode, send in your questions. So today's the day we're going to answer those. So first of all, I came back from my latest trip with a cold bill. I know you've been traveling too, so you went to Kansas, is that right?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, I went to Kansas two days with mediators there and family lawyers dealing with family law and divorce cases and of course my emphasis was on high conflict, also parenting coordinators and such. So custody and nice, nice people. And what was fun is I spoke to the same group 10 years ago and there was about a dozen people who looked familiar and it turned out they were familiar so it was really nice seeing them again.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Ah, that's good. That's good. When you were in Kansas, I ventured to Maine and I live in Arizona, so it hit 99 degrees here recently. So to go to Maine and be in the snow was really, really nice. And we were up at the Sunday River Resort and our new speaker here at HCI, judge Bruce Cohen retired judge, went along with me and we trained the main child welfare conference. Really amazing people, isn't it just fun to go and meet people all over the place that are just, there's nice people everywhere and it's a lot of stimulating conversations and get to see some pretty amazing parts of the country and the world. So that was fun. And then went over to the Portland Museum of Art and got to do some leadership training there, which was really wonderful. Turns out that museum is kind of world class, so if you're in the Portland Maine area, check it out.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And one last thing before we get going into the questions. In our last episode with Kara Rubenstein, we talked with her about DNA surprises and all those people who in adult life find out about maybe my parent isn't really my parent, I'm not who I thought I was. My genetic DNA is no longer a mystery. So while I was on the main trip, I had some time and I was watching Netflix and I came across a documentary called Con Mum, MUM, the British Spelling. And it was about this very thing where a man is a chef in the UK and quite a celebrated chef. So he's in the newspapers and magazines of things. And so I think it was during the pandemic, he got an email from a woman who claimed to be his mom and he'd never known his mom as a child growing up and he'd had some rough days in his childhood.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
So he really wanted a mom and he allows this woman into his life and tried to do the due diligence of making sure really she was his mother and developed this very close relationship with her. She was very wealthy staying in five star hotels, befriended his friends, bought him and brand new nice luxury vehicle, bought his partner a new luxury vehicle but then was borrowing money, said she was the unrecognized daughter of the Sultan of Bruna and eventually does a DNA test because things just got too suspicious and drum roll. Most people think she wasn't his mother, but she was, but she was also a con artist.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
There
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Was always a con she would one person and get money out of them to go fund this extravagant lifestyle and it just went on and on and on. So there was a DNA surprise right on the heels of the last episode.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Did she think that she was just conning him or did she know she was actually biologically his mother?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
She must have known.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Okay,
Speaker 1 (04:43):
She must have known. Yeah, I didn't really clarify that, but she was pretty confident with that. And I mean artists usually are pretty confident but
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So to speak,
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So to speak, so I dunno, but it was really fascinating and you just see how it works, right? With just, you don't really love me if you're asking these questions. And there was the cancer, I have cancer, I have six months to live, and so his partner was having their baby, his first child and new mom, his mother is drawing him away from his partner and the baby, I have cancer, I'm going to die. So he didn't get to be around his child. Anyway, all the stuff and things of the really professional artists were there and it was all done with a smile.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
People, we need to have our eyes open,
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Eyes open, indeed,
Speaker 2 (05:38):
A healthy skepticism. Don't be paranoid, just have a healthy skepticism.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And I thought of what Cara said about having the rug ripped out from under you a second time. I don't know if she said that after we were off air or not, but it was sometimes finding out these DNA surprises and then later there's another surprise that's revealed after that and it can be pretty unsettling. And that's what happened with this story and there are ramifications. The relationship with his partner didn't survive. It
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Was just there was so much damage done. Yeah. Anyway. Well let's get onto our listener questions, bill. The first one, a listener wrote in this question about his adult son. Our son has always been emotionally dysregulated, understandably due to his unique childhood in Africa where he was living in an orphanage. We adopted him at age four and we've given him love, support, structure and everything we've given our other children. He graduated high school and university and has been working for a decade in the tech industry. He's married and has children over the past decade. He's increasingly become angrier and more demanding with us. Every family gathering and holiday turns into a family fight after which he threatens to leave and sometimes does pack up his family and leave. Everyone is left utterly devastated. Now after listening to your podcast, I see the patterns you're talking about in him, the obvious unmanaged emotions, extreme behaviors, he threatens to never let us see our grandchildren again, manipulation and a lot of all or nothing thinking. And he blames either us his parents or his siblings for just about everything. It's a repeated blame game over and over and over again. We finally got him to agree to go to family counseling, but it didn't seem to resolve his anger or his feelings toward us. Now it's finally dawned on us that he very likely has a high conflict personality and with that has come a sense of despair. Is there any reason to have hope that we can have a good relationship with our son and our grandchildren someday?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Well, that's a tough one, and the answer is always, it depends. Depends on many factors. I think you do what you can and that's one of the sad aspects of this whole area of relationships is some people can change with high conflict personalities and some people don't. And so doing the best you can and then learning how to live with what the reality becomes. One principle is that personalities are pretty stable over a lifetime. And so most people as they age, if they're a high conflict person, may get a little bit easier or may get a little bit harder. I've seen both, but mostly I've seen people pretty much who they are by 25 is often who they're going to be. Now, I don't know when it sounds like he started being more difficult later on, which it's hard to say what that may be.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
There may be environmental factors, there may be people in his life reinforcing high conflict behavior. It may have something to do with a delayed effect being adopted at the age of four. There's a lot of personality development that goes on by four, five and six. And so there may be aspects of his life that were really not good that became part of who he is in close relationships. And that's one thing people don't realize. We're not born with how to have close relationships. We really learn that from the close relationships we have the first four or five years. And so that's why children who are abused or have a higher incidence of personality disorder, some research says four times more likely to have a personality disorder if you're abused by your parents in the first five years of life. But even that isn't the end of the line, that what happens in people's lives can help overcome some of that.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
And so depending on willingness to work on him himself, he might be able to polish off some of the rough elbows. When we do tech trainings, they talk about brilliant people with rough elbows, with sharp elbows and they can kind of smooth those off. But if he's really invested in blaming other people and doesn't work on himself, that may be this is what you're going to see for the foreseeable future. And in a sense kind of grieving and healing the loss of the ideal relationship that you might've wanted and may have actually had for a few years.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I wonder if we see many people go into a place of thinking maybe desperation in how to resolve this or rescue this relationship and not lose it. I think that's the key is they feel like they're going to lose this relationship which provokes terror in people. You love this person and you kind of had a vision probably of having a cohesive, fun family unit with your adult children and grandchildren. And when that falls apart, it is really, really, really hard. But I think some people, some of us may want to or go to a place of giving that person a threat, not a negative threat, like a bad threat, but of saying, Hey, we aren't going to have anything, have any more family gatherings with you involved until you stop behaving this way or until you come to the table and start talking to us peacefully. So thinking that they're setting limits, maybe they are in maybe would in some cases that perhaps work in some cases, is it going to blow up or is that always going to blow up?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
See, I think it's worth trying and I think it's worth trying to say, look, let's have some family counseling. Let's meet together and see how we can strengthen our ties. And also what you're describing around coming for holidays, that's the whole slick thing. We're talking about setting limits and imposing consequences, SLIC and that with high conflict people just setting limits often doesn't work. So you have to say what the consequences, if this happens, again, we're not going to be able to invite you to Thanksgiving, something like that. And that we hope that it won't happen again. See, there's such a wide variation with high conflict personalities. Some are really have the potential to change and become more reasonable, more cooperative, more self-managed, and others are really resistant to change. And especially with personality disorders, that's part of the definition is an enduring pattern of basically social behavior and you don't know. And that's why I say try to make things better and see what will work. And it's when you've kind of exhausted what you can try and maybe get some consultation or counseling, then maybe settle into a little more distant relationship and just know that you can't talk about really close things that it may be sad, but you talk about the weather, talk about the latest sports and all of that
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Spaghetti, but
Speaker 2 (14:00):
But don't give them feedback about who they are and their behavior because that blows people up. And so once you realize this is going to be high conflict behavior kind of going forward, then you want to find where the relationship can settle in and be consistent even if it's at a distance.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And I suppose there's always risk involved. So you do have to know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately when we talk about Biff and we teach Biff to people, one of the most important parts is it depends on the reader, the writer and the situation.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And I think in any high conflict dealings, it depends on the situation and the parties involved. With some parties, the risk may be pretty high of trying to sit down and have those more consistent interactions. The risk of it maybe not working, but with others maybe it will. And as long as you can keep it light and not get offended and take it personally. And I think that seems tricky for a lot of people trying not to take something personally. And the older I get and the more I do this work, the more I just see it as just such a reaction of that person's brain. They're stuck in their right brain emotions. Like you say, bill, and that stuff comes out right then and I just delete it. It's gone. It doesn't have any meaning to me. Someone's in a very reactive part of their brain in that moment. And of course something like that's going to come out. So if you can avoid taking it personally, that's good.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I think with that, what you tell yourself, we talk about giving yourself encouraging statements, especially before you go into a discussion that might feel risky like that maybe the person's going to walk out or yell at you. And I find it real helpful before a high conflict mediation is telling myself, remember Bill, it's not about you. And remember that I can't change how they think. Forget about it,
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Forget about it.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
And I'm not responsible for their outcome if they sabotage themselves and make their lives harder when I had hoped to help make it easier, I can't control that. And somehow that gives me more peace is that I know going in that it's unpredictable, but it's not about me and it's not my fault.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Right? There is a lot of peace that comes with that and you have to think about it. Life isn't perfect. There are physical and other mental health issues that people have. I mean there are deaths. There are just all kinds of things happen in life and this is just one of them. And so you don't have to take it on and blame yourself that you caused this. You don't have to take what's happening personally, you can tell yourself it's not about me. So I just need to focus on what to do. And you can survive it and you can avoid becoming that target of blame and keep things pretty peaceful. But even when they blow up, the more you do what you're talking about Bill, the less you just take it on yourself and it just doesn't stress you anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah. It's like what do we do now? That's the only question.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
What do we do now?
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yep. Yep. Well, what you and I are going to do right now is go to the next question. Alright. Alright. I recently discovered your podcast and have realized that my sister may have a histrionic high conflict personality. It explains so much. And although I now realize that some of the ways that I've handled our disputes in the past wrong or can we say backfired, I have been intentional about distancing myself from her and knowing that this is essential to maintain any semblance of a relationship. I should also mention that we live about 350 miles apart, so we only see each other a few times a year. And our relationship is mostly text or phone based. Aside from those few in-person interactions, she has sensed this distance that I have put in place and she often complains to me about it. Once in the past I broke down and told her that I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when I talk to her because I will inevitably hurt her feelings and get an emotionally charged email or text about our conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
A few days later, she continues to press me about how we don't talk. We used to, she misses me and wants to be closer. My question to you is how do I respond to her when she senses this distance and insists she wants more from me, but I know that I have to have boundaries in place so that I can keep her in my life. Thank you so much for the podcast. I truly believe it will give me the tools to navigate these family challenges. So Bill, how do though you have this relationship when one is sensing the distance and wants to be closer and wants more from you? It's kind of going back to the conversation we just had in a way,
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Right? Well, I think you try what you can, especially if it's your sister and you would like to be close, you'd both like to be closer. But the thing is with high conflict people that they have a sensitivity that doesn't change mostly doesn't change. Sometimes it does, but mostly it doesn't change. So if you've tried like you broke down and told her that she is walking on eggshells, did that change her behavior? Did she say I'm going to try to act differently, or did she just defend and justify what she had done up to then that often tells you it's not going to change because they're not interested and they're not hearing that there's a problem. Now sometimes it helps to have a family counseling session. Maybe you have sisters go to a therapist together and talk about what our relationship looks like now and whether we can be closer or not.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
And maybe this is something a counselor might help with and say, Hey, when you do such and such, your sister feels pushed away. Can you try this? Here's a technique you might try just waiting 24 hours before you write your next email or something like that. And seeing, because I believe give people a chance to change, but be realistic. If there's sign that there's ever going to be any change, don't beat your head against the wall here for years and years. And so you may back up a little bit. I think all our human relationships have a certain degree of distance and closeness. And so with high conflict people, it's kind of finding out where's that balance. You might have a friend that you love going to the movies with or going bowling with or birdwatching with or something like that, but it's not comfortable getting really personal with them. So you might schedule a couple hours to go birdwatching or something, have a good time and then stop before it's going to go downhill. So it's finding where that balance is. But I think you're right, Megan, the same idea is give it your best shot and then accept where it may end up having to be.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, and I think a big part of this too is just your crisis doesn't have to be my crisis.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
If you're upset about me not spending enough time, that doesn't have to be my crisis. If I have something to be guilty about, if I've told you I'm going to spend time with you and then I don't, then that's my problem. But if with high conflict people that things just led by feeling a big feeling that you've abandoned me, you're not talking to me enough, you're not paying me enough attention. Well those are your feelings and I'm happy to have a relationship with you, not to fix your feelings, but to have the type of relationship that will work for both of us. So I've been thinking about that a lot lately that other people's crises don't need to be mine. And I think we, especially those of us that are fixers in the world kind of helpers, we may feel some anxiety about or compulsion to help someone who is putting some blame on us.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And it really can immediately hook you. And if you feel that hook that, oh, I need to do something. Oh, I've done something bad, I've done something wrong, I need to fix this, I need to sacrifice myself a little more, you don't need to do that. It's like I would probably just set the stage and say, my schedule is pretty full and I want to be able to talk to you once every couple of weeks or something. So let's just put a regularly scheduled meeting on our calendars. And that way you start to have some input and control over what's coming in at you. And you've also set the stage for if you aren't able to write back right away, then she knows you're going to be having your weekly Sunday call or whatever it is. But just one idea.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And that's a good idea, especially with relatives where you might be far away and you're going to check in with a schedule. It doesn't fit into your daily life the same way. One thing I wanted to add is I think high conflict, people burn out often the people around them. And so they often lean more heavily on relatives and want to be closer even as distant adults when people have their whole lives where they are, that they want more from you than maybe the average person who says, I know you're busy, I'm busy, I've got all this stuff I'm doing. But someone that's maybe doesn't have as many friends or maybe has pushed people away, may want more from a sister than a sister might expect to give. And just be aware of that because what I would often say is, well, what can you get involved in your community? You're feeling this sense of disconnect. You could develop some close friends if you found an activity you like doing together. And so I'd want to encourage helping them get an activity rather than me trying to fill all their social needs
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And we can have compassion and love our family and our friends and all of that. And I think this is compassionate by helping someone see that they can dig in a little bit into themselves and find some resources and some strength and go find something in the community. And I can still be your sister. It's just got to be a little bit more managed. So I'd say don't feel guilty and just get a schedule. Alright. And the last question for today. Thank you for this valuable learning tool. Things are making sense to me now that have haunted me for years with an HCP in my life. And I wonder about another category of people who I'm calling highly conflict averse people. So HCAs, highly conflict averse people opposite of an HCP. A high conflict person will keep the conflict going inadvertently because they can't deal with conflict.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
They will continue the bully's behavior by advocating for it, enabling it, and doing it for them or dismissing the impact of it in order to avoid addressing the conflict where the HCP blame is 100%, the HCAP will accept 100% blame both the HCP and HC AP behave and act outside 90% all or nothing thinking unmanaged emotions, can't stop their behavior, can't connect the dots, self-reflect or see their part. They can't Biff, they can't be brief to help overly informative, to help overly friendly to avoid conflict, aren't firm enough, often vague or can snap to overly firm without warning because they've been pushed too far, tends to be disempowered or disenfranchised, developmentally traumatized, therefore biologically driven. So I guess the question here, bill, is what do you think about that? Is there an HCAA highly conflict averse person?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
I think there's some approaches to think about that have been longstanding. So first of all, I worked for six years in chemical dependency treatment, substance abuse, alcoholics, addicts, et cetera. And what we learned quite quickly is alcoholics often have codependents that in some ways inadvertently reinforce the disease of alcoholism, either buying them beer or pouring out the beer so they won't drink it, but highly involved in the alcoholics behavior for the last 30 years we've called that being a codependent. What's interesting is there was a discussion back in the 1980s and nineties, whether the codependent personality disorder should exist because the 10 personality disorders don't include a codependent personality. And the researchers and committee with the diagnostic manual said no, because we already have dependent personality disorder and the characteristics of dependent personality disorder basically fulfill that. Codependent is really heavily reliant for direction from other people, a lot of kind of guilt indecision these things.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
And what happens is people with a dependent personality disorder often end up with people with high conflict personality disorders. But I want to take a moment and say the disorder doesn't matter. We talk about personality disorders, the system that has all the research and explanations. To me, what's important is the pattern of behavior and how do you respond to that? And so whether a high conflict person has a cluster B personality disorder antisocial, borderline narcissistic histrionic or not the disorder, but if they had those traits, then I know somewhat how to respond and how to manage the relationship, et cetera. Well, cluster C personality disorders has dependent personality disorder, avoidant personality disorder, and obsessive compulsive personality disorder. These three personalities tend to avoid conflict and part of that is taking the responsibility on themselves and the cluster bees shed responsibility. It's all your fault. And so it's not unusual we see these folks fitting together. Yes,
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Quite a match.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah. If it becomes a disorder, that means that it really is self-defeating and is a problem also. And what's interesting to me is in business avoidant managers are a common problem and they don't know what to do with high conflict employees. And so they avoid
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And when they avoid high conflict employees create more and more trouble. And everyone's like, well, when are you going to put your foot down boss? And the boss is an avoidant person, and so they tolerate more high conflict. And some avoidant managers have decided I was happier when I worked as an employee, not as a manager. And I want to go back to my old office, so this is a thing. So they're describing a thing, but I wouldn't come up with a new name for it. I just think that they probably have some traits of the cluster C personalities and that helps explain what the problem is. And there's a lot of research around that.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah, it's fascinating. And there's a lot of other inputs too. And this listener talks about women and estrogen based bodies, doormat people, people pleasers. It's all kinds of different inputs as well. But it's really focusing on what to do. We always say, focus on what to do and hold up that mirror to yourself a bit and see what you're doing. And if you are a bit of a conflict avoider, it's a good idea just to learn some skills. Because I think just what I've observed, bill, is when people learn, even just the smallest skill, like learning how to biff an email, the confidence level goes up pretty significantly. It doesn't cure everything, but it gives, it empowers just enough to say, okay, wow, I have a tool now I have something I can use. And then they go and learn how to use an ear statement and get some relief and success with that. And then it can build from there. Especially the setting limits pieces.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I think that helping people become more assertive. And I like the role play where let's play you be the difficult person and I'll be you and have a conversation, then switch roles, you be you and I'll be the difficult person. And difficult people can be the most quiet person if they're avoidant or dependent, et cetera. And in many ways it's the same tools is like you said, Megan, using a BIFF response for written and ear statements for verbal, and we don't have to get stuck. We try everything we can and then accept as far as it can go and level off there. I think that's maybe all three of these questions, that's really where it ends up. But yeah, it is a thing that there are avoidant people and some of them can be difficult because they're so avoidant.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
So then to the conflict comfortable people, which is what I consider myself, we're kind of the opposite of the, we're not total opposite of the conflict avoider, but we might want to explain ourselves or maybe feel comfortable arguing. I had someone just yesterday say, instead of giving ear, I just give an outright logical answer because it seems, and if they don't like it, I don't care. I'm conflict comfortable. Right. So I dunno, is there a category for that? Is that one of the clusters?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Well, I think it's interesting, it crosses my mind is I think professionals are conflict comfortable, especially think of lawyers, therapists, mediators, teachers, ministers, doctors, lawyers, that all of them have a lot of people come through. And if 10% of people have a high conflict personality, they're going to be dealing with difficult people. And some of the really best professionals are those that don't get rattled by it. It's like, oh, okay, well okay, so you hate me, but you did come and you need some work done, so I'm going to get to work on your teeth now or whatever
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And aren't rattled by this. And then thank goodness, because there's a lot of difficult people out there, but most people are relatively reasonable. We're talking about 10% of people and most professionals can handle 10% of their caseload can be difficult. And not taking it too personally. When it gets to 20 and 30 and 40% of your caseload, then people get overwhelmed. So you have to keep a balance there. But I think we can handle all this as a society and as individuals. It's just we need this kind of knowledge so we don't take stuff personally.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yeah. One last thought on it is the conflict avoider category and conflict comfortable category. I wonder if maybe what you've been used to over your lifetime. Maybe you grew up in a household where there was a lot of chaos and conflict and depending on your temperament, you may have become that avoider type of person. I just can't have anything to do with conflict at all and a conflict comfortable person. It may not bother them in adult life when they hear people arguing or feel the blame or any of that because it just seems kind of normal. Would that be true?
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, I think for all of us, we learn from how we grew up, but it also was a combination with our genetic tendencies and all of that. So there may be somebody in that same highly conflictual, chaotic family who grew up highly conflictual and somebody who grew up highly avoidant and they both may come from the same family and that may influence their choices of partners and friends in the future. And I think the biggest thing is just self-awareness. Be self-aware. Where did you get this from? And do you want to keep it?
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, mic drop. Alright, well this is good Bill, and thanks listeners for writing in those questions. If you do have questions, send them to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Next week we'll be answering more listener questions and there's some really interesting ones coming up. So until then, keep learning and practicing and be kind to yourself and others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm for high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.