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Unbound is a weekly podcast, created to help you achieve more as a leader. Join Chris DuBois as he shares his growth journey and interviews others on their path to becoming unbound. Delivered weekly on Thursdays.
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On today's episode, How To uncover your core values and what that means for you as a leader.
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Are you a leader trying to get more from your business in life? Me too. So join me as I document the conversations, stories and advice to help you achieve what matters in your life. Welcome to unbound with me, Chris DuBois.
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Andrea Johnson is the owner of the intentional optimist where she empowers others to take control of their lives and change their future. Andrea works with ambitious female leaders, founders, community leaders and public officials who feel stifled and have grown unsatisfied with their current level of impact. Andrea is a certified Maxwell leadership speaker, trainer, coach and disc behavioral and analysis consultant. And today, she is going to help us uncover our core values. Andrea, welcome to the show. Thank you, Chris. I am thrilled to be here. Yeah, that was a you have so many certifications. Yeah. Do a follow up on myself. So let's start with your origin story.
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So I heard recently, somebody say there's a difference between your origin story and your conversion story. And you know, my origin story goes all the way back, I was raised overseas, my parents were missionaries. And so I have a third culture kid background where that helps me understand people from different cultures better. I think it really kind of fed my ability to get into leadership coaching and to get into personal growth. Because I learned early on that I don't that my perspective is not the only one. Right and, and even my cultures perspective of the United States is not the only one. When you grow up in a city of almost 11 million people, depending on when you look back in time. Everybody's got a perspective.
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But my conversion story for who I am now and who I am today is much more recent. When I was when I turned 50, my mother lost her 17 year battle with breast cancer. And my history with working with in the cancer program or whatever is I spent 23 years in university medical schools. So I knew a lot and I understood a lot. But through the process of watching her battle cancer and be extremely brave and extremely strong, and maintain her joy and her presence throughout all of it. I realized pretty quickly that I wasn't on that track. And as much as you know, moms and daughters, we have this thing I don't know about dads and sons, my I have a son. And so my husband is developing that relationship. His relationship with His dad was like my dad was always the one who threw the the baseball with me. I'm like, Yeah, my mom was always the one who said, here's the tab. That's how old I am. Like, here's the Diet Coke. Make sure that you, you know, it's like don't eat that and why are you wearing that color. But mother daughter relationships have a special bond whether or not they are more complicated than others. And when I watched her go through all of that and fight to literally the very end, I said, You know what, I'm going to change my direction. And I knew that I needed to be some kind of an entrepreneur I'd been trying for years, my entrepreneurial journey goes all the way back to Amway, and Mary Kay. And, you know, just looking at ways that I could do something different, but I just I wasn't ready, right? We can look back at that and say, yeah, it never would have worked. I also didn't, I didn't have the maturity. And I hadn't hit that point where I said, Enough is enough. So I developed my career inside university medical schools. And I have a background in administration operations leadership. At one point, I manage over 20 people in everything from nurses who were clinical trial coordinators, and research administrators and lab techs, and I did it all.
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But I realized that I didn't like managing people. I don't I mean, just the word bothers me. When I think of the word manage, I think of keeping something down or stable, right? I want to manage my anxiety, I want to, I want to manage this issue. I don't want to manage people, I want to help grow people, and I want to help people learn to become leaders. So I started looking at how I could do that. Because when you look back through my resume, you're gonna find leadership course after leadership course after leadership course. I even tried different career paths where I got a certified project manager before you could do that. I didn't quite have the experience to do a project manager a PMP. So I did a CAPM I think. And so finally, I just was like, You know what? The best career path for me is the one that I accidentally landed on, which is research administration. And so I decided to give that a shot and see how far it could take me and that's how I
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I ultimately got to my last University and the town that I'm living in, and became the manager and the operations manager that I am. But through all of that leadership training, I realized, you know what, I can do this, this is who I want to be. And when I was introduced to John Maxwell and that training program, I said, Oh, because they equip you with all kinds, I'm literally certified to like you stumbled over some of my certifications, I can do disc behavioral analysis to help teams learn how to communicate better I can do, I think it's a 25 or 30 of his, I don't know, 90 books that he's written out there. I am certified to teach them with a with a certificate at the end, you know, so all of these things just became very appealing to me. And so I said, that's what I'm going to do. And I started it. And about two years into that I realized I can, I can leave my job, mostly because I couldn't take it anymore. And so, and I know that you work with entrepreneurs, so pretty much anybody who's left a 25 plus year career, working for someone else knows that there's a challenge there. But I was very excited and encouraged to do it. And so here I am. And I was telling you before we started recording that this week, I will be presenting a leadership workshop at the organization where I used to work two years ago was when I left my job. So that's a little exciting. Yeah, come back full circle. All right, yes. 10 years in the making, quite frankly. So I want to start, I mean, you work with leaders to uncover their core values. And yes, I would love to just learn more about the process, then, like, what's typically involved with that, right, when you get a new client in the door? Well, for starters, we have to define what core values our core values are not outside of you. In the leadership space, many, it's actually a really hot topic right now, I find people are talking about values and our core values, I shouldn't use my air quotes, right? Because I think you just need to know who's defining what, and there's a difference between things you value, which are your priorities, and the core values, which is who you are, the best way I can say it is it's stripping you down to the top three to five principles that you can't live without. And when people start working with me, the first thing they think is, well, I already know what my core values are, like, okay, you know, I've gotten to the place where I just say, Yeah, sure. All right. You know, it's like, when you talk to a toddler, it's like, I don't know how to do this, okay, sure. But what I've discovered is that most people start on the outside and work in. And what I help them do is learn to start on the inside and work out because when you don't know your core values,
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your relationships are muddy, your boundaries are messed up. How many times do we talk about you out there, you're gonna find all kinds of information on how you work with boundaries, your decisions can be muddled, especially when you talk about career choices, do I need to go this direction or that direction? Well, when you know, your core values, those three to five main principles, then you can actually decide based on using them as guardrails, I have a new client that I'm working with. And she actually attended a workshop six months ago and said, I've really been trying, I think I've got them. But I've been trying to run all of my decisions through them as a filter, which is another thing you can do. And it'll help you that's part of a decision making process. And she said, but I'm just I just don't, I don't think I have enough. And I offered a new coaching opportunity. And she said, I'm in
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the first one. And so just working with a client individually gives them the opportunity to say, Who am I really, it's a process that I've been working on for 30 years.
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You look like you have a question? No. Well, I mean, even just thinking about my own values, like I, I feel like I know myself pretty well. But I don't know that I could give you just what those core values are like for myself. And I'm someone who I pride myself on being pretty self aware. And like, you know,
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it's just interesting. Let me let me give you a little bit more of a definition, core values are usually intangible. They're not things you can touch, but they have some kind of a measurable outcome. Right? So I have a client who has respect is one of her top core values. Respect is not really tangible, but boy, does it have a measurable outcome when it's not honored in her life or when she doesn't honor it in someone else's life? And it goes, that's the other thing is core values work both ways. It's not just about how people treat us. It's about how we treat others. So for her to say, I respected you, why aren't you respecting me that's like,
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I've come to swords. And so they're usually in hand
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But the other thing is they are, they are things that when they are honored, they usually bring you joy, right? So I think I've shared with you, I share it just about everywhere, I'm happy to share my core values as an example, my top one is freedom. And you know, for an ex military guy, Freedom means something. But for me, it is, that would be like, way surface level for me, I realized looking back on my life, and that's the other thing about him is that you, if you look back on your life, you should be able to see them show up all the way back to when you first started expressing yourself. So when you look back on my life, I was the kid, the strong willed child who was constantly saying, I can do it, don't do this, let me do it. Don't tell me what to do. Of course, my poor mother was like, that was the beginning of the complicated relationship, right? So for me core values, the core value of freedom is really more on the thought and idea level. It is, don't tell me how to think so critical thinking is huge in my messaging. And because I want to be able to take the information and and decide for myself, I want the freedom of my own decisions. So when we take it and go all the way down, then we can see how it shows up for us. But then we can see, this is why working in an organization or a job, quite frankly, I was in Research Administration, which I got certified. But what I didn't put in there was one of my certifications, which is a certified Research Administrator, literally a four hour exam on government regulations.
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Said I did it because I put my head down, and I can do it, because I knew that it would help me in my job. But I was the first one to say, Okay, well, the government says this.
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But it de facto, this is how it works, you know, because I'm always looking for a way around things, not because I don't want to follow the rules. I'll follow them if they make sense. But
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needing to have that ability to think outside the box made it very difficult to do that job to be able to have to tell researchers, you can't do that. Because XYZ was hard. I wanted to say, Sure, let's do that, you know. But my one of my other top core values is I thought it was community. Here's the other thing is that a lot of times it goes a lot deeper than we think. And just working this last week with a client, she had her top 10 words, because that's the first step, we kind of dump them all out. And then we kind of narrow it down to 10. And looking at our top 10 words, she said How am I going to narrow this down like, well, let's walk through them and talk about their definitions. And we found out that two or three of them could easily be bumped up underneath one or two of the others, because they're part of the definition of that. So like freedom, for me is a definition of being able to decide for myself. But I thought my my third core value is community because I really wanted to find a place where I can belong. I'm a missionary kid, I grew up overseas, I moved around all over the place. My husband felt the same thing. His dad was an engineer, he moved all over the place. So missionary kids, military kids, you know, engineers, kids, they move a lot. So I had no place to put down roots, I had no place that was my home. And so I felt really detached and I couldn't find a community. And so for the longest time, I thought that's what I was looking for. And I tried building a Facebook community got up to like almost 500 people on like, Hey, I don't want this close. You know, I mean, some people like you had 500 people in your Facebook group. Well, yeah, but I didn't. That's not what I was, I figured out it wasn't looking for that it wasn't meeting that need, until I realized what I was really looking forward to the belonging that comes with community. So walking with my clients from this is what I think I have, and this is what my my friends and family might say about me narrowing it down to your top 10. And then taking them out, I call it take them out for a spin, right? Take them out in your life and kind of look at how they show up. And one of the number one questions that people asked me, and they're usually surprised when I answer it this way, but how do you know like, what are the best indicators of what your core values might be if you don't do the exercise? If you're not interested in actually working through the process?
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Take note every day of what pisses you off. And you'll have a good idea of what the core value is on the opposite side. Right? So even my husband have nearly 30 years. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. That's I'm thinking of all the things that I got pissed off about over the past week.
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Now, some of that is unawareness and some of that is lack of patience. And some you know some of it is and no offense, but we all have it some of its immaturity, some of its like emotional maturity. But a lot of times it still boils down to the fact that we got pissed off about it was because somebody stepped on our core value, or it was undermined in some way. My husband
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used to start sentences? Because he's not. I mean, he's an independent thinker, but in a different way. He'll say, wouldn't you agree that sounds like as soon as you say, he says, I'll hold up my finger, and he goes, Oh, sorry, what do you think about, you know, because he's learned. But it's taken a long time. And my mother used to say, Isn't this really pretty, and I couldn't understand why I had a hard time just being honest. And it's because I didn't think it was pretty, and I didn't want to hurt my mother's feelings. But so that was a tension that I could feel. So once we do that, we take them out for a spin and look where they show up, right? It's like, where does that show up in my life, positive or negative. And for a good week or two, I mean, if you can take four to six weeks to do the process, that's the best way to do it. Then when you see where they show up, the ones that show up the most are probably your top ones. And then you just kind of refine it and refine it, but then you have to define them. Just like I said, with my client the other day, when you, you look up the dictionary definition of freedom, it might be a little different than the way I'm going to define it, I'm not going to, you know, take a huge leap away from what the definition would be. But my definition of freedom is not going to be the same as your definition of freedom. So that's the main process, and then you rinse and repeat.
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Just keep looking because I started this process 30 years ago, these are my governing values when I started the Franklin planner system 30 years ago, and
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freedom is the number one one on there. And it says I have no job.
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So you know, it's like maybe this is a little bit of a manifesting tool. But the beauty is, I can actually look at most of these and see how they fit into what I believe are my top core values. Right? I think that's just a fascinating exercise to wear that self awareness to because even separate from understanding, like what decisions you've made in the past, it can help guide you to those better decisions in the future, that are just going to generally make you happier and better place. Yeah, I say they can be your guardrails, like when you're on a suspension bridge or something, and you got to hold on to the ropes, or they can be bowling analogy, the bumpers so that you don't go in the gutter, or just even driving on the road. It's like these. I'm a Formula One watcher. So it's like the barriers that that keep you from going way off into the crowd. That's what core values can do for you. And they do that in your own decision making process. They do it for your boundaries. When you know who you are, Chris, it's really easy to just tell people Oh, this is who I am. There's no apologizing for it, there's no defensiveness about it when you have a competence that I like to describe it as like, This is my house. This is my yard, you know, it's like the the top three are my house. And people know, they don't just come walking in my front door, you know, my, my front door is closed and or locked? And they don't do that. But if they don't know if it's wide open? Or if there's no walls, then why wouldn't they walk through, because I planted my bushes too close to the road, and people walk through my heart all the time.
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So it helps with all of those things. And I just now I can't imagine not focusing on them. Right? Yeah.
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So let's talk about like within a business use case, I guess, as a leader, being able to understand what your core values are, how what types of benefits, have you seen,
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you know, impact the team, the organization as a whole, just from from knowing those. So I'm currently working with an organization that has a bout 70 people in it, and the working with the middle managers and the supervisors, to see them understand their core values, gives them the opportunity to leave with what I call authentic magnetism.
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And when you are truly authentic, when you are true, that's actually my second core value, by the way, when you are yourself and you have your own charisma, which is just being true to you. And when you can actually see others for who they are, and lift them up for who they are. People are drawn to that you become a very magnetic leader because nobody can compare to you literally because you are truly you. Now does that mean you have don't have skill gaps? No. Does that mean you don't need leadership understanding and principles? No. But core values is that foundation upon which you build all of those other things. Now the really beautiful thing that I didn't ever anticipate was taking it into a business setting was some of these women that I worked with turned around and said Do you mind if I share these with my team, like your core values? And they're like, no, no, no, the process like
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Oh, sure, right. I mean, I'm open source person, right. So it's like they shared the process, then they came together as a team looked at all the different ways that they overlapped, or they were in conflict. And then they made core values for their team.
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I shared that I'm working with the last university that I worked for on this week. And in talking to the steering committee, they literally like before I've even presented the information, they're like, Oh, hang on, this could be a way that we could truly make a mission and a vision based on our core values for our organization. No, not the entire university, but this organization within. So it is a way to create your mission and vision, it is a way to get buy in and engagement. When people are engaged, they just do better they, and it's a way to help you see them as well. Because when you're sitting across the table from somebody, and you understand that one of their core values is going to be undermined every single time, this particular aspect of your mission is played out. Either they're not the right person for the job, or your mission might need to change or your vision might need to change or your policy might meet need to change because I just think people are more important. You can you can change and you can do all the other things with your processes, but your people are your greatest asset share so that so I guess what are some of the hangups in that as people are trying to uncover their core values that they run into to stop them from actually finding them?
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Well, the biggest hang up is they think they know. And this is, this is in all of Western society, we think we know, we just there's plenty of things we think we know. And we are not super comfortable with the not knowing that is an Eastern idea.
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The western idea is we map it out, we know what we know. And we get the bullet points and we get the map and we highlight it and we do what we're supposed to do. So I think the biggest hang up is assuming that we know, the next biggest hang up might be the idea that I can take on values of an organization or a community. And those are good enough. And they're not because they're outside of you. And when you lead from especially for leaders, when you lead from a space where the principles or the guiding values of your life are outside of you, then you're never going to make a real impact. The only way you're going to make real impact is when you can lead from who you are, and the values that you have. So those are two big hang ups. The other the third hang up I would say
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is that I think people are afraid sometimes of personal growth or to look inside, because we're afraid of what we might find.
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We're afraid that it just might be too much. Or it might be scary or Good grief, it might be bad, right? What if one of my core values is bad?
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To that I usually say you were created good. You know, no matter what your worldview is, I mean, mine is from a Christian perspective. And when I believe that when God, you know, I, I read the Bible, and what I believe is that he created and he said it is good, right? It's like, so the beauty of understanding our core values is just we understand why we do things, how we do things and how we can do them better in the future. And what's important to us in order to relate to people better, it has nothing to do with the fact that I might value something that is detrimental to another human. That's just the shadow side, right? So if my, if I've taken my if I take my freedom too far, and become an anarchist, then and some people are anarchists that are not bad. I didn't mean that in a bad way. But if I, if it all becomes all about me, then that's not helpful at all right? But that's not what it means that's taking it to its shadow side, what we want to do is find the core value that makes us who we are to be able to share so those three things I think are the biggest hangups right now I'm curious on your thoughts. So one of the reasons I think, like organizations like like the army are successful is because they're the organization as a whole has its, its values outlined. And leadership, I still remember it right now. Leadership is what the Army is loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage, and is that not not everyone is going to have those as our core values, right. But it at least gives everyone this this common operating picture for when they come into the organization and they can basically say, the other people in this group believe these things to be be true and valuable. And so it kind of forms that initial connection. Right? Like you have something Yes. Even with absolutely people from such different locations, right demographics and everything. You have something that you can find it's common ground. Do you think Oregon so obviously like
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If an organization as a company could do the same thing, but at what point do you say like this is kind of too far from my core values verse, This isn't close enough that I can I can fit in and I can work with these people like I agree, generally with these, right, is there something you would say, I guess, when looking at that?
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Well, I think that so if you're familiar with
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Franklin Covey and how you make decisions for what you're going to do first, it's like you have your A's or B's and your C's, and you have a one a do a three, you should have like two or three A's, and a couple of B, or three or four B's, and then everything else is a C, and quite frankly, those don't ever get done. You know, I mean, it's just kind of that.
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But what you described is, these are the things that we value, these are the beliefs that we espouse to, and you can have any number of core values and espouse those beliefs and decide to work within those parameters of that organization. What becomes a problem is if somebody like me is a perfect example, if my core value is my top one is freedom, than being inside an organization that is very large, and needs to have cookie cutter things that are very, you know, I work for two great, Mid Atlantic, like almost like top tier universities, these are good schools, their missions are great, their visions are great, especially in the schools of medicine, they do amazing work.
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But I needed outside of those cookie cutter boxes, and their mission and their vision and their values had to do with patient care or Student Care, or making sure that everybody was equitable. And I'm like, I can't do this box. And you have, that's where understanding your core values gives you the opportunity to say, because when I first left, I hadn't done a lot of the work. I first left, I was like, angry all the time, I was like, Oh, they did that. They're so big, they need to do that. Just know. Now I look back, and I say it was a bad fit. It was a bad fit for me. And, you know, they wanted to keep me because they could see that I had these leadership qualities, but it was a bad fit for me. So understanding your core values gives you the opportunity to align them up next to whatever organization you might want to become a part of and say, Can I work within these parameters? And just remember that those things are outside of you and your core values are inside of you. So being able to say, you know, respect I don't, you rattled through those so fast. Like, they're just they drill them into our heads. We keep them there. Yeah. loyalty, duty respect.
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Now let's let's Okay, let's really quick, let's look at loyalty. So there are ways in which loyalty could be in conflict with your own core value of say, perhaps individualism, right? Or,
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but respect is, I'm just not going there. I don't want to.
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I don't want to mess with that one. But for instance, I think it's possible to say, you know, what, I appreciate that loyalty to the army is what you need me to do. But I can't be loyal to the army right now. In this particular situation, I can't do that. Therefore, I need to separate, right? If, if for some reason, there's something that goes against your ability to be able to be loyal. That's when you get people who compromise their beliefs all the time. And this is why because they haven't established this really strong, like a tree trunk or or tap root that goes down that says, I need to be able to bend, but I can't go that far, that would break me. Right, I think there is something extremely valuable just in being able to know that so that you can explain why something isn't working. Because if you are that individual, it's part of the group and then you're in conflict, right, telling the group Hey, guys, I'm having a hard time with this. This is why you can potentially leave amicably versus it turning into this chaotic life.
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Well, but you can also affect change in the group.
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I mean, you don't have to leave. I mean, it could very well be that when you because I truly like I'm the intentional optimist, right. So that's a whole other program. But I'm, I understand my core values to be who I am. I communicate. We talked about this communication, I communicate in specific ways, and I understand how other people do. But then I live out my core values with intentional optimism, with courage, with hope, with optimism with excitement. And when I live those out in a way that is beneficial to others and is completely in line with who I am, then it becomes much less like I use the word or I said earlier, we're not defensive about them. And it means that you can say, you know, I really want to
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Be a part of this organization. Unfortunately, right now, I'm feeling a lot of tension in this area. And it because it conflicts with who my core value of who I tend, you know, how I like to operate? are there options? Is there something we could change here? And a lot of times there are, I mean, most companies or organizations are not going to put out their values that are negative, right? It's like, they're gonna put greed out there as one, right? I mean, it's like, if they want to make money, that's a little different. But you know, just so I think that being willing to say, I'm comfortable who I am. And if it's not going to work here, I am happy to understand that and I will actually do the changing right. Now. I guess, as we start to wrap this up, how often should people kind of reflect and reconsider any other their values? Or at least dive into just just question if they are still things that are holding close?
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I don't know that. I mean, every person is different, obviously.
31:02
I'm gonna say it depends.
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Personally, like I said, this started for me 30 years ago, right. But
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I don't have a specific time that I go back and look at my core values, what I do is I am more aware of them. And when I noticed that one is not quite like that community two belonging switch, when I noticed that I needed to go down deeper. That was just because I was more aware of what was going on. And I realized, trying to fulfill this core value get doesn't isn't bringing it isn't releasing my tension. It isn't taking me away from my incongruence it is. It's just not doing it for me. And so I had to look a little closer and quite frankly, listening to friends. And listening to people that are close to us. I had a friend say it sounds like, it sounds like you really because I said something positive out some situation, you said, Oh, it sounds like you really belong there and thing. And I'm like, oh, that's what I'm looking for. So what I do with my clients is I say, you know, work through this process. Some people, it takes six months to get to three, some people can do it in three days, it just depends on who they are. But I would say, you know, after you do that, go back in six months, and really take a look. And then go back. And you know, a year later and take a look and see you know, where they're showing up and what things look like that and because there's no set time, but you if you're actually using them on a daily basis, and you're aware of them, you will know when one is not quite right.
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Oh, and the other thing is, if we do like the top four or five, I have what I call the primary, which are my top three. And then I have 10, you know, but the top five, sometimes they move around depending on your situation, depending on your life, season, depending on on your job status, right? When I left work, when I became an entrepreneur, the real ones were able to really rise to the top, you know, and really say this is exactly who I am. But in any given situation, those others might pop up for me. So that's another thing to pay attention to. Gotcha. Awesome. Great advice. So Andrea, yeah, you had to pick one book that you would recommend everyone read? What would it be? Well, because I am big on making sure we know what we want to do and actually following through with it.
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Other than the book that I have written on core values, I want to say James clear as atomic habits is I've read it four or five times I've done it for a book club. I've taught it in my group coaching program. And we've walked through it together. If you haven't, I mean, I can't imagine that other people haven't recommended this book to you. But
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if you listener have not actually read the book, it will give you a very simple way to build habits and I use them with my son teaching him how to First we brush our teeth. And then we do this that you're getting all the bedtime routine in and I still do with myself for like building up exercise routines, figuring out systems that I'm going to do in my work, all of that and it just I cannot I cannot extol the praises of atomic habits more awesome.
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What is next for you professionally.
34:26
So I am currently in the process of developing a hybrid group coaching program and I have a digital course called uncover your core values. And I noticed that and I also have a free download that I'll happily share with your listeners. That's like a one pager so or two pager maybe but some people can just read the instructions and do it. Some people need let's walk you through with some videos and some downloads and that kind of stuff and kind of give you an ability to take a little bit more time with it have a little bit of connection and some people like this client that I
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have right now need a little more than need somebody who can bounce that off, bounce their ideas off of have somebody reflect back to them. And I am a coach. And I love it. And I've noticed that my coaching is focusing more and more on core values. So I'm currently in the process through the fall of 2023, doing what I call alpha testing, I'm taking clients on one on one. And I'm working with them through like four zoom calls after they do the modules in the course, to figure out how I can put together a group program that I would love to launch early in 2024. That will give people the opportunity to come in and have not just me, but other people reflect back to them, how they are figuring out their core values, using their core values, implementing them, making the most out of them. So that is the thing to be on the lookout for. Awesome. Yeah, that sounds great. Finally, where can people find you?
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I'm at the intentional optimist pretty much anywhere. My website is the intentional optimist. If you're listening to this on a podcast app, I have a podcast. So when you're done here and you give Chris five stars, you can then scroll down and find it, go to the search bar and find stand tall and own it. This is a new iteration of over three year podcast three year old podcast where I used to interview leadership, women in leadership. And it's all the stuff that I've learned from that. So but the other piece is if you want to start your core values work, you can just go to the intentional optimus.com and I've created a landing page for your people where you just forward slash unbound. And you can actually get that that download yourself and start the process. Awesome. And we will get that in the show notes.
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Andrea, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a great conversation. My pleasure. Awesome. Well, we will speak soon.
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If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership visit leading for effect.com As always deserve it
Transcribed by https://otter.ai