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Where food opens the door to conversations about craft, culture & tradition.
TWK EP 9 Kevin Kossowan
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Tiffany Bader: [00:00:00] Imagine being nominated for a James Beard Award next to shows like Chef's Table and Parts Unknown, except your show is just you filming, editing, and scoring the music out in the Canadian wilderness. That's Kevin Koswan, filmmaker, forager, hunter, teacher, and today's guest. Kevin, welcome. I'm so happy to have you here.
Thanks.
Kevin Kossowan: Thanks for having me.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Thank you. I, uh, I feel like I, I feel like I know you even though I don't. We've never, we've never met before, but, uh, just watching your show with, uh, with Travis and then watching the podcast he did with you, it's, uh, you know, chatting with, um, Jeff Sanger as well, and it's, um- Mm-hmm
I feel like, I feel like I know you much more than I actually do, so I, uh- Oh, well, that's good. Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: That makes one of us.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, exactly. I do, I do have to say, though, man, your show is, like, it's something else. It's, um, it's not like... [00:01:00] It's... Like, when I... I'm not a big fan of hunting shows. Um, I love hunting, but- Yeah, me either
yeah, I mean, they, they all... And I- I've talked to someone that, that actually does, does produce a, a hunting show, and they say that there has to be a kill in it. Otherwise, if there isn't, people drop off, and they just, they're not interested in watching a hunting show that doesn't have a kill. And, um, your show is...
It, it is a hunting show sort of, but it's not, and it's... There's cooking, but it's not a cooking show. I mean, cooking shows have, like, massive, big, obnoxious personalities, and, and, like, it's, it's like the subject matter's not interesting enough. They have to put all this razzle-dazzle and crap in it to keep it entertaining, and it's not.
It's got a, a tinge of, like, National Geographic with how, how it's so beautifully filmed, but it's not, it's not, like, peppering you with scientific information. It's just like... It's all those things, but it elevates, and it, it just sort of let- It just sort of, you let it breathe, and I'm, I'm [00:02:00] just curious- I'm just
Kevin Kossowan: gonna start letting you write my bio from now on.
Tiffany Bader: Oh, I, I just, I love it 'cause it's not... It's, it's for people that love the outdoors and love all those things, but, like, you can just immerse yourself in this. It's just, it's a beautiful show, and I love it, and I, I'm so curious- Thank you ... I'm so curious if you have, like, an influence or, or what, what- What do, I guess what influences you have that, that, uh, created that show or if it's just all, all inside the brain of Kevin Kossman?
Kevin Kossowan: Interesting. Well, it's a little bit of both of those things. Mm-hmm. But there was one show in particular that did happen, I think they're still producing it, that really did, um, change my opinion on hunting shows because like you, I wasn't all that interested in watching- Mm ... 14 bucks get killed in an episode, and then-
the biggest issue for me was, like, the rolling of credits once the buck was on the ground. Yeah. And like that was, that's the end of [00:03:00] hunting, and for me, it never has been. I grew up on- Mm ... game meat, and for us, like, uh, actually as a kid, most of the time with big game, I was on the butchery side. Like, the, the old guys would go hunting, and then I would be at home and pick up when the carcasses were hanging in a garage.
That's- Mm. So to me, it always made sense that that from there is the, is kind of the interesting bit, especially coming from culinary, um, like some culinary experience on the film side, too. Um, it just seems this huge gap. But the show kind of visually that, that changed the game for me was Heartland Bowhunter.
Tiffany Bader: Okay.
Kevin Kossowan: Because that show finally took, um, cinematography f- seriously, and I think they influenced a lot of people in that era that they started producing their show, uh, because they were doing time-lapse cinematography. They were doing, um, just all kinds of kind of doc work- Mm ... a- around the experience that wasn't really being done before.
Now, that's not a food show at all. That's, it's still a- No ... hunting show, but it was a, it was a methodology of [00:04:00] showing people, uh, the outdoor world in a, in a very different way at that time. So that would, that would've been one of my only other influences. On the other side, like, it's pretty funny to use these.
I've never even thought about this, so g- good question. Um, it would be Heartland Bowhunter on the hunting side and Jamie at Home by Jamie Oliver, which was this really, like, basic, in his backyard, kinda no-fuss, making stuff out of whatever, uh, and just this beautiful food show, beautifully shot, and that was- I love that show
always inspiring to me on the, on the... Yeah, me too. Yeah. I just can't believe they didn't produce seasons and seas- I could watch that forever every year.
Tiffany Bader: Yep, me too.
Kevin Kossowan: Um, so those would probably be two. Uh, another web series that kinda changed my life was one called The Perennial Plate, Daniel Klein, another James Beard, uh, winning s- uh, filmmaker guy from, uh, Minnesota originally, now in Mexico.
But he produced a, a series of local food short films back when I was doing other [00:05:00] things for work. I was in the financial industry e- eons ago. And, um, it was watching his stuff that made me pick up a camera to begin with and think, "Okay, interesting. Telling these short stories about all the cool things that are happening around your local food system, uh, I wanna try that."
And then it- I ended up in the industry within, like, two or three years.
Tiffany Bader: So was it, was it that, that, that food, uh, angle that got you to make the jump from finance to filmmaking? Or was it more... Was there something else in it? Uh,
Kevin Kossowan: no, it was ge- general hatred of, of my former career, uh, maybe was, was one of the reasons.
Um, but also, um, I used to be heavily involved in music and still do. Like this morning I was writing score. Um- And that, uh, at, at, at a point I was playing in a band a lot as a young adult, and then, uh, got out of that because I started having young [00:06:00] kids in the, babies in the house. Uh, and when that kind of ended the musical arc of my, uh, earlier adulthood, there was kind of a big creative gap, I guess, and food filled it.
And I started traveling a bunch and got really interested in food, and then went, like, weirdo on it, and I would say, like, reinvented my entire fo- home food system. So, like, where does our flour come from? Let's go meet a flour f- a grain farmer and learn how... You know, where's the best, who's the best grain farmer in the area?
And then just nicked away at all of the, you know, redesigning who I was buying my food from, started growing all of our own veg and planting fruit trees and getting backyard hens, and kind of going down that road. So, hunting to me was part of a more holistic approach to just supplying my own food, uh, in general.
Uh, so, uh, today I'm gardening and, uh, you know, in a day or two I'll be picking garlic mustard for a restaurant, and then I'll be hunting next week for black bears and [00:07:00] rabbits, and then back, you know, pruning a fruit tree. So it's, it's kind of all over the place. Uh, but when From The Wild was born, I, uh... It was an interesting time.
I was actually looking at building a website to deliver video direct to consumer. That did not exist back then. Did not exist. Um, and Vimeo, uh, Netflix was still mailing DVDs to my wife. That's how, that's how much times have changed. Geez. And Amazon released, uh, this... Or sorry, uh, Apple created this strange, strange idea, um, that people would actually pay for content through iTunes, and I went, "Whoa, this is a different era we're entering now."
Um, and so as soon as Vimeo said, "Yeah, we'll allow you to, to sell to your, uh, your audience," which I already had an online, uh, presence, so I thought, "Okay, great. I'll go with whoever's gonna be an early entrant," knowing that there's gonna be all kinds of issues and clunkiness, but it wasn't actually too bad at all as far...
from the start. Um, and so I thought, I'm either gonna start a [00:08:00] series about kinda sustainable, sustainable agriculture and small farms, but that space was really dense, or something outdoors and culinary, and I had been in, uh, pointing cameras in the culinary industry enough to know there was a big gap there, that the chefs I was working with really had no idea how to work with a white-fronted goose, for example.
You know, like, you could give them an ingredient that I think is obscure and interesting, and they've never even heard of it. So, uh, I thought, "Huh, there's a big hole in the market there." Uh, this was before MeatEater hit Netflix too. Like, this was, there was a massive hole. Hank Shaw, uh, wasn't even writing books yet, I don't think.
Maybe he was just starting. Um, so it was in that time. And so we're in season 13 now, and we just kinda plowed ahead with, um... As you probably know, I went from hunting and fishing to, like, uh, a pretty deep dive on plants too. Uh, we're working with all... I mean, I work with herbalists, and we're making... I'm about to guide a whole [00:09:00] bunch of people, um, that are mixologists and bartenders and, uh, distillers on how to use local, which plants are relevant for making spirits and liqueurs and cocktails.
So it's, like, really gone down that path in a way that I never saw coming. Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: and you're, you're traveling around quite a bit. Like, initially it was, uh, it seemed, uh, uh, Alberta focused and boreal forest and, and all that kind of stuff, but you're, you're all over the place now. How is, how is that, like, to go into a place that you're not familiar with or comfortable with?
Do you just kinda go in blind and figure it out, or
Kevin Kossowan: Hmm. Well, um, er, a few years into the show, uh, I was offered a lot of opportunity to get into a lot of unusual places. One that sticks to, in my mind is, like, I was offered to go moose hunting in Kazakhstan, for example. And I thought at the time, like, "That's novel."
It's... And we did actually go moose hunting in Sweden. But, um, I'm not sure I, I wanna [00:10:00] produce a novelty show. That's not how food resonated with me. To me, time and place resonated with me, that idea of terroir that the wine geeks like. I see food that way. So I, I decided kind of very, very intentionally that I wanted to go back to the same places and keep learning.
So long as there was something to continue to learn in that place at that time of year, I, t- was worthwhile to go back, and so have done that largely. Uh, where it has expanded is... And I, in season six, we went to Nova Scotia, and Ontario, Newfoundland, so I've kind of been around the country a bit. And, uh, and last fall, I was in Finland designing a knife with a Michelin star chef buddy.
But, um, largely, it's in the grasslands here, the Boreal, and on the west coast of BC. Um, I started falling in love with kayaking and getting on the water and, uh, exploring the ocean about, mm, seven years ago, uh, and got a sea kayak designation [00:11:00] as a guide, uh, because the sea kayak guide association said I should, uh, as due diligence if I'm gonna be producing, uh, television or whatever you call this, um, uh, on the ocean.
And so I got a, got some training, and immediately they said, "Hey, can we book you to do food-specific foraging, hunting for... foraging, fishing, tr- like, crab-trapping-specific expeditions?" And so, uh, I said, "Yes." And so I've been doing that- ... for, this is my third season. So I do sea kayak e- expeditions off the west coast, uh, putting in in Tofino usually.
Mm. Um, and that's another component of what I do. Is it weird to be an Edmontonian teaching west coast people about west coast plants? Hard yes.
Tiffany Bader: Well,
Kevin Kossowan: I think- There was some imposter syndrome early on, but...
Tiffany Bader: But people don't know, like, just 'cause you live here doesn't mean you know, right? Like, y- you brought up terroir, okay?
That is not a term people use to describe wild spaces. Yes, French wines- No ... and, uh, right? [00:12:00] Like, people- Yeah. But these are, like, cultivated over thousands of years. This is like, yes, you know- Yeah ... the clay soil and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we're growing pinot noir, whatever. Uh, well, you talk about it in a wild space.
Like, like it's a, like it's a given there. You just, like, dropped it like no big deal, but people don't think about it like that. Like, that's a,
Kevin Kossowan: that's totally
Tiffany Bader: different.
Kevin Kossowan: No, but it's- Just to drill into that, what people care about in wine is elevation, aspect to the sun, the geology under those grapes, the vintage, like how much rain did you get?
How is this a different year than others? I was just in the bush. It's a strange year. We had... Three weeks ago we had two and a half to three feet of snow still, now we don't. Um, the horse tails are late, the leaves are early. The, the fiddleheads are kind of right in the right zone. Uh, the rabbits aren't as abundant as they should be.
The white tails are way more abundant than they should be. [00:13:00] And each... And it's the same time and place as I always go there. It's mid-May. It's always kinda... You'd think it should be the same. It's not. Population dynamics change. Um, seasonality is different. And even within one little pocket of a, of a place, like in the grasslands, we can be picking Artemisias or what people call wild sages in one spot, and then you're dipping into a different little draw and you're picking cacti.
But the cacti aren't present anywhere else. So, like that specificity of place matters. And if you care about their fruit or about their flower, then time really matters. Uh, and it's kind of like that for every species, that there's a window. When I'm guiding plants, uh, usually I tell people every 10 days things change out there.
So, uh, if you, if you wanna learn more, you can do the same walk all the time in your own backyard. Go every 10 days and you'll find new things blooming, new fruit ready, new mushrooms popping up. Um, and so time and place massively matters. And From the Wild [00:14:00] eventually became, uh... I, in the production notes it says, um, uh, ecosystem-based camp, camp-based ecosystem exploration.
Those are the unfancy words. I find if I'm not in camp, if we're not present, like actually in the place and living there, it's, it's hard to really plug into it. But d- by day two, three, sometimes that's when you're kind of finding what nature has on offer. But ecosystem exploration, meaning we may be on an elk hunt, but we, if we find a huge flush of mushrooms or something else that's really interesting, uh, we might get completely sidetracked and do something else.
Um, there's... We're, we're there for the plants and for the birds and for the fish and for the e- everything. Whatever there is that we can harvest, that's kind of what we tackle. And it requires you know a lot about a lot of stuff, I guess, which is kind of the, one of the reasons people don't, but
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Well, I think it, I mean, I, [00:15:00] I've personally found that noticing all those little side ancillary things when, like say when you're hunting, uh, make you a much better hunter.
Like if, if I notice- Mm-hmm ... if we're-- Like I use this example all the time with, with people that are getting into it. I'm like, "Notice if you're going bear hunting where the dandelions are growing. Not just that there's dandelions, but what sort of stage in their growth they are," because the bears are obviously attracted to it.
Yeah. Look for spruce tips. If you're, if you're up at an elevation, you're not seeing spruce tips, uh, go down or what- whatever is... Like notice all those things in, in the area that you're hunting, and you'll see- Yep ... certain things relate to certain things, right? And everything is so connected, but sometimes we get so, like you mentioned there about going hunting for elk and finding mushrooms, and we get so laser focused on whatever that thing is we're targeting that we become blind to everything else.
And when you are able to slow down, notice all the other stuff, it just... I mean, it's a more enjoyable experience, which is kinda the whole point of it all anyway, right? [00:16:00] But it makes you much more successful- Mm-hmm ... if you are in, in, in search of acquisition of food, right?
Kevin Kossowan: Okay. I'll give you an example that sticks in my brain 'cause it's very recent.
Um, I was snow goose hunting for the first time this spring, uh, at a property I have in southern Alberta, and shot a snow goose and was filming snow goose cookery. Fine. Great. I've succeeded at the task of the target species. But the coolest part of that episode had nothing to do with the snow goose or the snow goose hunt.
It was the fact that I took the time to look at all the dried herbs that I'd hung last summer on the wall and go- I wonder if I can build like a digestivo kinda thing, like a chartreuse kinda thing. Uh, and so I just tinctured a whole bunch of different plants, and I brought it back. And, um, since then, uh, some local brewers and people that make booze for a living were like, "Oh, we, we need to talk."
And so that little d- the, the dabbling, uh, uh- Yeah ... in [00:17:00] the plant world actually produced something f- of far more value that I can enjoy for a way longer time, uh, that's spurring way more interesting conversations than I made dinner.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: You know? And that's not to diss the meat side at all.
Tiffany Bader: No.
Kevin Kossowan: But it's, uh, it's a good example of kind of stopping and instead of just singularly focusing on the one thing that w- that you can fixate on, um, look around, and there's lots of interesting stuff.
It is a bottomless pit. Nature's an interesting place, full of flavors.
Tiffany Bader: What are you using for tinctures? Are you, are you using, like, an Everclear or straight vodka or something else?
Kevin Kossowan: Uh, early days I used Everclear. Um, and then I found a product out of Alberta called Clear Stock. It's made by Strathcona Spirits.
And, um, they're just basically repackaging neutral grain spirit, uh, or NGS from a large plant in Saskatchewan that takes Alberta and Saskatchewan grains and pulses, and, uh, ferments and distills it into [00:18:00] neutral spirit. It's really good, and we can actually now get single varietal, uh, neutral grain spirit, so we can get just, like, wheat or, um, rye, uh, spirit, which is really neat.
Um, that was just not available 15 years ago. It's another byproduct of, uh, some law changes in Alberta around, uh, production of booze, so we're in a really good spot for that. Vodka does, does not extract nearly as quickly. Um, uh, neutral grain spirit, which is at 96 usually, uh, percent, uh, extracts flavor faster and, uh, color way more.
So that's not always a good thing. Uh, when you're producing a show in three days, it is a good thing. Uh, but my buddy Robert Rogers, who's on the m- the health side of things, the medicine side of things, r- has reminded me, he, he would tell you what, uh, percentage of alcohol by volume is ideal by species.
That's [00:19:00] his depth of knowledge. So he could say, "For that species you want 70% alcohol. For that one you'd want, like, 45, and for that one you can extract it as fast as you want." Um, and, and that's, I think that's part of the great gift of, of my work, is that I get to hang out with people with th- that level of knowledge that both kinda level you up, but also keep you humble on what you n- what you don't know.
Like if... It's so s- it's such a broad- It's such a broad space that, um, that I, I still feel like a, I don't know, a s- I'm still constantly learning. And, uh, I have more expertise than lots of people, but I also have people around me that have more expertise kind of in every bucket of things that I do, whether it's sea kayaking on the West Coast or herbal medicine and, and t- cocktail blending, whatever.
I have friends that know more than me about all those things, and so it's fun to continually be just, um, trying my best.
Tiffany Bader: Well, that's, I mean, that's, that's how you learn, [00:20:00] right? I, I just, I, uh- Mm-hmm ... I, I love, I love being humbled. I love people telling me I'm wrong. Hank Shaw, you mentioned him before.
Kevin Kossowan: Oh, yeah.
Tiffany Bader: That man is good. He's not scared to tell you you're wrong. No, he's like, "Nope, you're wrong." Yeah. "That is so wrong." And then tell you for 20 minutes- Yeah ... how, how wrong you are. I love it. Like,
Kevin Kossowan: I mean- Yeah, he's so well-informed. Yeah. Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: that man knows what he's talking about. But one day, hopefully, I'll, I'll find something and tell him he, he's wrong.
But until then, I'll just keep learning, keep learning. But, um, okay, so you're- ... you're talking about different ingredients, um, trying new things, the, the endless pit of constantly learning about new, new plants and stuff like that, um, makes me think about foraging for different ingredients. And I think about lamb's quarter.
Lamb's quarter, for me, is one of those plants that- It, it has replaced farmed spinach or if I garden spin- I don't even grow spinach anymore because lamb's quarter- Me neither ... lamb's quarter [00:21:00] grows in my garden naturally. It's a weed and I like, uh, like this way I don't even have to worry about planting it.
It just grows. I think it tastes better. I don't buy it anymore.
Kevin Kossowan: There you go. That's the important part. If it was- Yeah ... if it was okay as a cooking green- Yeah ... I would say, "Well, you probably should still plant the chard or spinach." Yeah. But I agree with you. Yeah. It is better, uh, we actually covered this on a recent episode.
I, that, that line came out of my face and like this is the best cooking green that I've- Mm-hmm ... ever come across, and I would choose it first every time. It's so creamy and doesn't have the metallicky kind of minerality that spinach kinda has on your, in your teeth and stuff. It's just got this cleanness to it that's so perfect.
I love lamb's quarter. It's great.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. I like, I'll, I'll pick a ton of it. I get enough just growing as weeds in my garden that I can pick it, blanch it, throw it in my freezer, have it for the full, full year. But it makes me think about so many plants that we harvest that, um, we do it, it's like a, it's a luxury for us, right?
Like, people [00:22:00] now, most people, don't need to forage for plants. It's, it is really a luxury, right? Like, we, we pick all these, you know, sea asparagus, and it's very niche and chefs love it and, and all these things, but people aren't surviving on- Mm-hmm ... on sea beans. They're not, they're not surviving on cattails or any of these other things.
We pick it 'cause it's a novelty. But for you, outside of lamb's quarter, are there any oth- other plants for you that have, like, replaced other, other plants? Like, they're just part of your, part of your diet that you, you use?
Kevin Kossowan: Oh, man. My pantry is weird. The first one that popped to mind- ... is, uh, fireweed.
Fireweed changed a lot in my life. Um, one is it's got a lot of biomass, but yeah, Camellia angustifolia, that one. It's... We use mostly the greens, and where it really changed things is, um, is when you oxidate or oxidize the leaves, you can make, uh, tea out of it. Uh, w- that tastes shockingly like black tea.
[00:23:00] It's the same process that black tea goes through to get to that aroma.
Tiffany Bader: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Kossowan: Um, so it replaced all of the teas that we serve at events, the hot teas. We no longer would ever use a black tea base. Uh, it goes into cocktails like French 75s, it goes into, uh, hard iced teas, it goes into... It's kind of a foundational flavor for beverage around here now.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Um, that one really changed things. It, it, it was, um, a species that at this time of year, just had some this week, it's just tiny little shoots and they're amazing kind of in salads and sauteed or anything, just in any way. Uh, and then later in the year, the leaves as they mature are just like some material biomass.
Actually, it was Hank Shaw that, um, kind of put me, put my brain on it a number of years ago. We were on a trout fishing trip in the Rockies, uh, he and I and a buddy, and Jeff Singer, actually. Yeah. And, um, and we couldn't catch a trout to save our life that was in the right slot size.
Tiffany Bader: I, I remember that [00:24:00] episode.
You guys, like, had fireweed-
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah, and so he's like- ... fireweed
Tiffany Bader: onions or something. "
Kevin Kossowan: We'll just eat fireweed, I guess." And, and, like, that was... That wasn't planned. That was just what happened.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Uh, and it made me aware of it at the time. Like, oh, that can, that can really save your butt. So that one is something that we use a ton.
Um, I would say Galium triflorum is something that has entered my life and stuck. Um, it is a plant that ha- I pick at restaurant scale for a restaurant, and it's a fairly busy restaurant and it, uh, the chef, the owner said a couple years ago it replaced 98% of their vanilla bean purchasing. So it just- Wow
its wholesale replaced the need for any vanillin in desserts. So the cu- one of the custards I make for events often is just Galium triflorum and dandelion root. And it's just- Yeah ... those two things as flavor components, but it tastes kind of like pumpkin pie, gingerbread, milk chocolate, uh, when you combine them.
And not just a little bit, [00:25:00] like a lot. Yeah. And with any awkward off notes, none. Like zero. None. Just completely approachable, completely delicious, and it's just been a no-brainer, easy thing. Uh, gallium ends up in, um, cocktails a bunch, um, and beverage, the beverage side too. So it just kind of ended up everywhere in...
And then the, the compound in it is called coumarin, which is a bit of a controversial one. Um, it's funny because it, uh, it's in tonka beans and lots of people in the pastry kitchen know tonka beans. Uh, if you're in Europe, the flavor of tonka bean is very familiar. Uh, but when you... In Canada, not less, far less so.
You'd have to... Well, our local patisserie here, like the best one in the city would have, you could buy them, but they're otherwise pretty hard to find. Uh, but the same compound, coumarin, is in Galium triflorum. Not all Galium species have it, just that one. But, uh, it's also present in yellow sweet clover, and it's also present in sweetgrass.[00:26:00]
Those are the, that's what makes sweetgrass smell sweet is this- Yeah ... this chemical or whatever. And, uh, it's easy to infuse into liquids, into creams, and into drinks and stuff. So that one really shifted for me because I don't, I haven't made a dessert with vanilla paste or vanilla for years. Uh, that was, and that's been a pretty important, uh, pivot.
So that's a couple examples.
Tiffany Bader: What's the, what's the common name for... Is there a different name for Galium triflorum?
Kevin Kossowan: Sweet, sweet bedstraw is one of the-
Tiffany Bader: Ah, okay ...
Kevin Kossowan: uh-
Tiffany Bader: Okay ...
Kevin Kossowan: in, uh, it was actually a buddy, a, a chef buddy out of Vancouver that put me onto it because he had worked in England and was using Galium odoratum or, um- Oh, it's gonna bug me.
In England, it's a really common, uh, culinary herb that they use in desserts, and, uh, we don't have that one, but we do have one of the Galiums that does carry the thing. They look like garden cleavers when people first see them and they- Yeah ... they think, "Oh, I, I've seen that. That's, that s- kind of [00:27:00] cat's tongue-y, grippy thing from your garden."
Uh, related, but not- Okay ... the same one. Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Okay. Yeah, I have cleavers everywhere, but I don't know if I've seen sweet bedstraw before.
Kevin Kossowan: It grows as a, it's, it grows under sto- uh, open, kind of semi-open canopies of forest.
Tiffany Bader: Okay.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Is it, it's not as prickly or that sort of
Kevin Kossowan: thing? Uh, no, it'll stick to you.
Yeah. Okay. It's not quite as sticky, but it- Okay ... it still is sticky. Yeah. Interesting. It has six leaves. That's usually how you identify it. Okay. And the three little flowers on it are micro. They're tiny, little hard to identify, but if you just dry it, it, like, when I dry a handful of it on, in my vehicle, if you let it dry in your vehicle on a warm summer day, your whole vehicle will smell like tonka bean.
Like, it's really potent. W- uh, one of my kids asked me to quit using it in, in t- in varied plastic containers because the plastic containers would just carry, post-wash, would smell like tonka beans.
Tiffany Bader: Uh, it's like tomato sauce in a, in a z- plastic container, like the- Yeah, a little bit ... cardboard's staining it.
Yeah. [00:28:00] When I make something that I think is, like, incredibly delicious, I find it so challenging to take a picture of it. So i- if you check my social feed, it'll be like a half-eaten plate of something that was really good. I'm like, "Oh, shit, I should take a picture of it." But I, I struggle so much with being able to document it.
Um, I just want to live in that moment. And-
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah ...
Tiffany Bader: if you're, and e- especially if you're outside, 'cause there's just so much more of that, like, wanting to be in the moment. How do you... Do you struggle with that? Do you, like, is that like a constant thing that you're like, "Damn, I just wanna be outside in the woods and, like, cook this ramen- Oh
over a fire"?
Kevin Kossowan: Hmm. Well, there's two ways to interpret that question maybe. I'll go with the first one. Um, that moment of, like, hitting the plate especially, it's, it's a pretty, uh, it's a pretty important destination in the story arc of what we're there to do.
Tiffany Bader: Hmm.
Kevin Kossowan: I alway- I had- it took me years to have the discipline [00:29:00] to, like, "Okay, slow down."
Get a slider out. Like- Yeah ... take your time, get the photography done before we eat the thing. It just takes three minutes, but I always wanna rush that moment because of that same excitement of just wanting to, to get into it. Um, but the other side of it is that I think you probably could understand this having watched the show, is that I actually really enjoy, mm, filming the pace of nature.
Like, and observing the details of it, and I like, I like scenes where someone's just making themself a coffee. You know, like, just the little, the little moments that actually, um, actually are taking place every day. That stuff, I could film that and spend time filming that endlessly, and I guess I have 'cause we're at 120 episodes or something in or more.
Um, and the part that other f- that, that, that also applies is when I get home and into post-production, I love [00:30:00] sifting through that stuff. Uh, I love the rough cuts and the assembles and kind of reimmersing myself back in that place. And part of that, part of that is visual. Part of that is the, just kind of the tech- technician side of, like, did I capture that properly?
But I'm also, uh, my camera, uh, has an Audio-Technica BP4029, which nobody's gonna know what that is, but it's, it's a, it's a really high-end stereo microphone. So to me, the, the sonic landscape of place is very evocative to this brain. So it's really neat to get back and hear the ocean waves lapping in gravel when I'm sitting in my studio, or listening to the spring birds that are only there in spring, they're not there in the fall, uh, doing their thing in that little window of time.
Because by the time I edit it, that window of time has passed, so it's like I describe post-production as like a time machine and the film process. It's like you get to relive all these really cool experiences, and I'm often with really cool people doing cool stuff, [00:31:00] so it's neat to just be able to go back.
Tiffany Bader: So for y- for you, consuming the food is like killing the deer. It's only one small part of it.
Kevin Kossowan: Yes.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Okay.
Kevin Kossowan: The way the, the way the show is designed now, uh, is that a good episode for me has a number of different scene types in it. So I want to see somebody fishing, sure, but I'd also love to see them drop that fish carcass in a crab trap, and then maybe it's even more interesting to film the crab cookery than the fishing or the fish cookery.
And then I'd be curious about, like, what are they putting on the plate with that crab? I- if it's plant-based, like say it's sea rocket or something, or beach rocket or, uh, sorry, Latin, Cakile edentula is the one we use the most. Um, I wanna film that foraging scene, and then if that's the case, you have a human that's out doing these cool things, uh, I wanna see them cooking, and I wanna see them living [00:32:00] there.
You know, that's just, I don't know, there's something evocative about that for me that, uh, it's like this holistic need for me to see the whole picture, to share that whole picture- Mm-hmm ... mostly with myself, uh, but, uh, also for the viewer. Uh, that is just how my brain works. I've learned that over time working with other cinematographers and camera operators is like, oh, I see things very differently.
And I think that's great. Well, yeah. It, yeah, I mean, there's just creative, uh, a creative component that is hard to explain a bit, but, uh, for me, uh, you can dial it back to how we started this conversation is to me, watching someone stalk a deer and shoot a deer, that's interesting for a three-minute scene.
Tiffany Bader: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Kossowan: That's it. Yeah. After that, I have a 30-minute show, so I need to, need something else.
Tiffany Bader: I think you described why your show is so compelling and so enjoyable for people to watch because you're able to put them in your, your place and, and put them through the [00:33:00] lens and be able to watch what you're seeing and experience it.
It, I think
Kevin Kossowan: that's- I think the combination of that, immersiveness is one of the things that has, um, that's, that's one of the ways the show's been described.
Tiffany Bader: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Kossowan: The fact that it's unscripted, I think helps a lot.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: There's no production company suggesting how the story arc goes. There's nobody dictating anything dialogue-wise.
So it's, it's got a really organic, transparent thi- feel that I think people, that resonates with people, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then it's, it's, uh, I laugh often, like it- it's a really poor choice really to do what I've done. It's like s- super artsy and abstract, so, and most people in the hunting community, they're like s- you know, maybe not as, uh, sorted that way in the brain, would rather I was just killing the buck and like laying off of all the fruity feelings stuff and, you know, that kind of thing.
Uh, they can, they
Tiffany Bader: can watch those other [00:34:00] shows. They, they, they- I know. That's what
Kevin Kossowan: I've- Yeah ... I've always thought. There's like plenty of other, there's plenty of other shows- Yeah ... that cover that ground. Um, and, and same with plants. Like, as my, my interest in plants has increased and, um, we dabble in, uh, last year we made a fireweed beer.
We made a cow parsnip ta- um, liqueur with one distillery, um, and we're gonna be making a spruce tip, uh, beer with one of the best brewers in the city this year. Uh, that stuff, if you're an avid, if like you're a singularly focused hunter of any kind, all of that stuff's boring to you, and you're not really, don't really care that this human is doing those things.
And for the people that aren't avid hunters or who maybe, uh, are, are maybe interested in hunting, some of that's the interesting stuff. So I don't know. I think at the end of the day, uh, I follow the wisdom of Rick Rubin. Um, Rick Rubin effectively said, uh, at some point that, um, as a creator, the best thing you could do for your audience is just create for yourself.
If you make [00:35:00] something that you love, then, then share that with people, then that's way better than you trying to make something that people will like. So I guess, um, I've been in that lane for a very long time.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's obvious. Your passion is, is obvious in, in what you're producing, and I think you've been really successful at putting people into that, into that world.
Um-
Kevin Kossowan: Thanks ...
Tiffany Bader: my... Yeah. I, I think it's awesome. I, I wanna know when you weren't as successful, though. Uh, when, w- what is the nastiest thing that you've eaten in one of your shows, and, and did it make the final cut? Like, did it end up on the show?
Kevin Kossowan: Oh, wow. Nastiest things?
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, like, you've... I, I mean, I've eaten a l- like, like, uh, there's so much variation in wild food, and, and people are like, "Oh, this berry's the best," or, "This one's the worst," or whatever, and I've eat, like, salal.
Yeah. I've had, like, some salal that'll rival blueberries. Like, I, I think it's fantastic, right? Yeah,
Kevin Kossowan: I love salal [00:36:00] blossoms. Yeah. I think they're so cool. They're beautiful little white lanterns and crunchy. Yeah. Such a cool texture to them.
Tiffany Bader: They're, they're gorgeous, and I've had some salal that, like, is horrible, just mealy nastiness.
Um- Oh ... cattails, not my favorite. I've heard people say they're fantastic. Like, is there, is there something that you guys... I mean, I, I know y- you were, you were working with, uh, Chef Rogalski for a bit, and you'd give him something, and he'd, he'd have to sort of make, make something with it. Were, was there- Oh,
Kevin Kossowan: yeah
Tiffany Bader: was there anything- Yeah ... that you guys did that was just like, "Okay, I could survive on it, but it's not something I'd wanna eat"?
Kevin Kossowan: In that show, yeah, there was more exploration of like, this is supposedly edible, maybe a survival food. But what do you, how do you cook it?
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Uh, so that's true, and, um, pond lily tubers were one of those that were like, "Hmm, okay."
Tiffany Bader: Hmm. "
Kevin Kossowan: I wouldn't choose that." Um, but honestly, I, I wish I had a better answer for you. There's, there's... Do I have some preference in [00:37:00] animals? Sure. Um, but I'm thinking of something, I can't think of anything challenging. No, we, we generally don't- Huh ... ax a dish-
Tiffany Bader: Yeah ...
Kevin Kossowan: uh, ever. Uh-
Tiffany Bader: Oh.
Kevin Kossowan: What does g- happen in camp is that we'll come in with, like, two or three ideas of what we think we're gonna do, but then kind of while you're there, some better idea comes up, and so stuff gets sidelined.
That happens all the time. Um, but something gross Hmm
Tiffany Bader: If, if there's not, that's, that's an answer, too. I just... I figured, I figured with all of the things that you've foraged and eaten and stuff, there might be something out there that's just, like, terrible, but if there's not- No ... that's, that's fine.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah. No, there's not, and I- I'll give you an example of maybe what I, the moments I like the most- Mm
and it actually was producing Wild Harvest with Les Stroud and Paul Rogalski. Uh, the ingredient was tall blue lettuce in Ontario. Super bitter, and I tasted it- Mm ... and went, [00:38:00] "Oh, I'm glad you're on camera, Paul, and not me- ... 'cause I don't know what you're gonna do with this." And he tasted it and he's like, "Oh, that's fine."
And, uh, and I thought, "What?" And in that show, I learned, like, this brutally bitter thing, uh, he took it and he charred it to add layers of bitterness instead of just having one note of bitterness. Yeah. And then he described it to me as like, imagine like you have a guitar amp and you've got your bass cranked all the way up.
Like, that sounds like, that sounds bad, but if you crank all your other knobs up the same way, so if you bring up the salinity and the acidity and the sweetness to meet that bitterness where it's at, then it, and balance it, it's fine. It's just a matter of it being out of balance and that, then you're in trouble.
And the dish he made was stunning and was great, and I went, "Oh." Uh, th- there've been lots of those moments. And I've... Another ingredient that, uh, originally I thought was disgusting and then didn't, uh, was Artemisia absinthium. Uh, when I first tasted it and handed it to chef pals, I was like, "What do [00:39:00] you do with this?"
Wormwood is the common name. Uh, and ev- everyone was stumped, it was so bitter and brutal, until we learned that, oh, you can make absinthe with it, say, or vermouths, or like put it in the bar side where bitter is an asset and where people have historically used it as a medicine, as it's an anti-parasitic. Uh, and it's fantastic, and now wormwood is one of the, like, foc- focal points of the tour, the walk I'm gonna be guiding on Friday.
So it's... I, I would say that the, maybe the big lesson for me has been every time I bump into an in- an ingredient where I think, "I don't know what to do with that," it doesn't mean there's nothing to be done with that. It doesn't mean I don't like it. It just means I don't know yet what its best application is.
Uh, and we really don't bump into any ingredients where, you know, the people in the room go, "Oh, that's just hot garbage. Let's just throw that out." It's more, it's more ar- around like, "Huh. Okay." Um, like that's [00:40:00] super tough or that's super bitter or like how do you, how do you work with that? Uh, and there always seems to be an answer if you're willing to, you know, grind it around in your brain long enough.
Tiffany Bader: It's kind of a nice luxury to be, be able to do that, too, right? Like it's not- Yes ... it, it's not a survival situation where you're like, "I guess-"
Kevin Kossowan: No ... "
Tiffany Bader: I'm chewing on these cattail tubers raw," or whatever, right? Like-
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah ...
Tiffany Bader: you can play around with it and find that. It's, that's very cool.
Kevin Kossowan: Yep.
Tiffany Bader: Um, you're... You, you grew up with foraging and hunting and fishing and all- that kind of stuff, yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah. Yeah. I grew up on moose meat. Uh, I would say, though, the qualifier is that, like, my, my family hunted moose specifically. Uh, the odd white-tailed buck would wander through if he was a big guy, and they shot him, and they'd just turn him into garlic sausage. So I really d- I really didn't know white tail at all until later in life.
Um, we had m- we, we foraged, uh, highbush cranberries, or Viburnum trilobum, and shaggy manes. That, that was, like, the th- the two foraged [00:41:00] items in my life as a kid, but nothing else. I, I really learned everything, uh, starting when From The Wild was born and going, "Oh, there's like..." Uh, you can watch the arc in the show.
I go from season one, I... We knew nothing, and, uh, I, I had ice fished before, but I, did I know what I was doing? No. I had never caught a trout before. You know, like, there was all kinds of things that we hadn't... I didn't knew nothing about plants at all, zero. I worked with them never other than, again, highbush cranberries.
So the learning curve has been steep, and I started, um, started guiding, I guess, uh, about five years into it roughly, something like that. So now it's been, mm, I guess seven years of that. So I don't know, you just keep learning as, as you go.
Tiffany Bader: And I find a lot of people, uh, so disconnected with, with wild food, and they just like...
They want, they want someone to take them out on a tour. They wanna build their confidence. They wanna, you know, have more comfort with [00:42:00] understanding and identifying these plants. But when you were getting back into it, did you trust yourself a little bit more because you had a little bit of a background?
Like, you know how to identify shaggy mane. You maybe understand a little bit of the vernacular, how to identify these, these things, or, or was it-
Kevin Kossowan: Oh,
Tiffany Bader: interesting ... did you have to build your confidence slowly?
Kevin Kossowan: I am a deep diver when it comes to subject matter. So like when it was time to learn about mushrooms, I took out every book from the library on fungus and then studied them.
Uh, when I was guiding on the West Coast, I spent an entire winter, uh, studying botany and seaweeds of the Pacific Northwest, um, to prep for the next season. Um, so I think it's, it-- I think my trajectory has been one of, "Oh, that's interesting," deep dive. "Oh, that's interesting," deep dive. Um, that's kind of how my career's gone.
And I, I... [00:43:00] There was a summer I started guiding around the province, um, like around the whole province of two or three years ago. I learned 20 or 30 new species that summer in my own province that I had never seen before. No idea they existed because I'd never really been in those areas at that time of year, in June, for example.
Um, and so you just keep learning more and more and more and more, and then you start understanding relationships between families of plants and fungus and how they, you know, and so then it becomes easier to spot leaf shapes. And I'm at the point now where when I'm guiding, I think you asked about kind of getting dropped into, I didn't answer your question, about getting dropped into a space Uh, I quite enjoy blind guiding now where I don't, I've never been there before, uh, because it's fun to reinforce the n- the knowledge, and, um, nature's very overlapping and very consistent.
So in Alberta, I can get dropped pretty much anywhere and identify most of the plants in that space. Uh, and then the other big important piece is that m- I, when I [00:44:00] started this process, I thought, "I should learn plants because I bet you in the bush there's, like, 5% of it that is edible, and then I should know that 5%, and that 95% of it's probably just trees."
And, uh, it turns out the inverse is true, is that 95% of it is usable. There's the odd thing that maybe 98... There's the odd thing you have to avoid. But otherwise, and even some of those things that you're supposed to avoid that are listed as toxic in a guidebook, uh, you can eat if you know what to do with it, uh, or you can use in the bar side or some other way.
And so n- n- it, I'm at the point now where it's just, um, uh, most of any ecosystem in Western Canada to me is pretty legible. Uh, and you can use most of that ecosystem in various ways depending on what you're doing. Some of my favorite plants now to teach are where you could take the plant and you could do, like, your, your cocktail, appetizer, uh, main, and dessert from one plant.
Tiffany Bader: Mm.
Kevin Kossowan: I [00:45:00] love plants like that. Oh.
Tiffany Bader: Oh,
Kevin Kossowan: yeah, I
Tiffany Bader: bet.
Kevin Kossowan: And it's, it really changes your, your perspective, uh, to have to, um, to do that. One of them is dandelion, for example. Dandelion can make a coffee. It can make, um, the, the dessert I was, I referred to earlier with Galium triflorum. Uh, we've used, we've capered the buds, and I grew up on the greens being used in salads.
Um, so there's just a whole host of things you can do with that one plant. Uh, the, the two, the roots, the c- um, sorry, the crown of the plant just above the root and below the leaves, that white bit-
Tiffany Bader: Yeah
Kevin Kossowan: Uh, super desirable as like a cooked, uh, vegetable, kind of texturally like artichoke heart, kind of in that zone.
Tiffany Bader: I heard that recently. Um- I think Alan-
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah ...
Tiffany Bader: Bergel, I
Kevin Kossowan: think- Yes, he was doing it ... in his book. Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Uh, so a plant like that can do a lot of things, and I really enjoy, uh, that. Uh, we've done, we've done entire menus with [00:46:00] just spruce. We've done menus like that, uh, with a few different species, and it's, it's really fun to wrap your head around the fact that, okay, it's just a spruce tree, but you can actually build an entire menu around the flavors of that thing.
So it- it's, it's, um, it means that walking into any space, it's pretty easy for a weirdo like me To be able to just talk endlessly about trees and then go, "Oh yeah, we probably should cover other things too."
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, it is funny, uh, uh, recently being in Sweden and walking around in the woods and noticing- Oh, that's fun
how similar everything is. Like, we, we were- Yeah ... we were told, "Okay, we're, we're doing a, a lunch. Um, you gotta make something." I was like, "Okay, cool. So what, what protein do we have and everything else?" We're like, "Okay, let's walk around the woods, see if we can find some mushrooms." But, uh, it... within a few minutes you're like, well, really, it's not identical, but like you said- No
there's f- there's families of plants, and if you can identify one- Yeah ... then you can identify another, and so many things are so similar. Now, chanterelle in Sweden is the [00:47:00] same as a chanterelle, chanterelle in BC, right?
Kevin Kossowan: I had, I had a, wow. I had a fun time in Finland. We were designing a knife. I was with Sasu Laukkanen, who's, um, had nine years of Michelin stars in Helsinki before he became a knife maker.
And, uh, he wasn't drinking at the t- like, at the time, so I was gonna make a, I was, uh, wanted to make him some type of non-alcoholic cocktail analog. So I was riffing on a Corpse Reviver Number 2, which is a pretty classic cocktail, and in Finland they had sea buckthorn, uh, a bunch of different, um, na- cultivars that I...
and I was very familiar with sea buckthorn from here. But I went in to go make like a gin kind of component for that non-alcoholic drink, and ev- I, I learned real fast that the forest looked the same. They had birch, they had spruce, et cetera, uh, tamarack or larch, but s- they were... none of the species were the same.
They have one spruce tree, and it's the Norway spruce, and they have- ... like two birch trees, and not- [00:48:00] neither of them are Betula papyrifera. It was Betula pubescens and, uh... Oh, it was Betula pubescens. Uh, and we have papyrifera. So you think you know stuff, and then so I'm like- Yeah ... "Okay, but I know spruce really well."
Like, I teach it all the time across Western Canada, and I tasted Nor- Norway spruce, and it tasted like nothing. And I thought- Hmm ... "Man, Sasu must think I'm a, a, an idiot," because we use it all the time here- Oh, yeah ... but ours tastes amazing. Theirs doesn't. Um- Our lodgepole pine here is amazing, and the lodge- Yeah
and the pines on the East Coast are horrible. Uh, so even though you... Yeah, it's neat still to, to, like you say, to travel somewhere else and go, "Wow, they're related," but, uh, even within similar families, I sure get schooled from time to time on just 'cause they're related don't mean they taste the same at all.
Tiffany Bader: Well, uh, I think it goes back to your, uh, Karwaos sort of comment on how- Yeah ... it's ev- different species, different soil, different everything. It just, everything tastes different wherever you go [00:49:00] and-
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah ...
Tiffany Bader: which is a fun challenge when you get to cook with it and be like, "Eh, I don't know. What's it gonna taste like?"
And you get to kind of mess around and change it up.
Kevin Kossowan: Mm-hmm. I also enjoy the fact that everybody who cooks something in the field, uh, has a different spin. Like it's- Hmm ... it's people have different palates, and they cook from different places, you know, culturally and experience-wise. And so even with the same ingredients, um, you could get quite different plates at the end of the day.
Tiffany Bader: As someone that doesn't come from sort of the traditional filmmaking or hunting or, you know, background when you're producing your show, do you feel like that gives you an advantage?
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah. Advantages and disadvantages, pros and cons. The big one is the creative side. Um, I remember when I was producing music a fair bit, uh, I would just not listen to other music, so that whatever's barfing out of your head creatively is not influenced [00:50:00] s- as heavily by other artists.
I would say the same thing, uh, I don't watch film or television as a hobby. I never did. Uh, really, I was the guy playing outside, which is probably no surprise. But, um, I don't watch other shows generally speaking. Uh, and is that a good thing? Yeah, I think it is, because it means when I sit down at an edit desk, um, you're gonna get my voice, not one that's super influenced by some other recent show that's trying to please somebody.
So, uh, on the con side, it means I work in a weird silo because I do so much of it on my own that I don't really interact or work with a lot of other, um, filmmakers. That's kind of changed a little bit recently. A good buddy of mine, um, has entered my life, Preston Kanick, and he's a super talented film guy, uh, from Saskatchewan.
Uh, but it means that I've kinda had to figure stuff out on my own, um, that, uh, that, yeah, I've had to adapt to [00:51:00] Yeah, I've had to adapt to that, especially o- over the years. I'm about to self-shoot another episode here coming up. That's not the easiest thing to do, like at that level, to be able to-
Tiffany Bader: Yeah ... f-
Kevin Kossowan: film it at this, the level that I'm used to, but with no other camera operator but yourself, it's not the easiest thing.
So it's meant just lots of learning, especially around workflow and then s- compact gear, because I can't be bringing lots of gear into the field, so you, you're having to figure out how to do, um, some pretty neat production moves with really minimalist gear. So anyway, it's been an interesting go.
Tiffany Bader: Is, is that intentional though?
Like, you know, conceivably you, you could bring another person along to hold a camera and film you.
Kevin Kossowan: Oh, interesting. I, for years, uh... The first time that happened was in season 12. Hmm. So it took 12 years before I put another camera person in the field.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: It completely changes the dynamic.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: It, it instantly...[00:52:00]
If I'm going with a colleague into the field, it's just me and them, everyone gets used to the cameras just being around, and it, it's, it's not, it, for whatever reason, isn't weird.
Tiffany Bader: Hmm.
Kevin Kossowan: As soon as it's me and a colleague in the field, but there's that other- Yeah ... there's the ca- the guy running around with equipment pointing cameras at you, everything feels a little weird.
Yeah. Um, the conversations become a little bit less personal. There's a little bit less, you know, intimacy in the, the dialogue, and, and it becomes very performative very quickly. Um, and it's really tough to dodge it.
Tiffany Bader: It's, it's funny you say that 'cause it, I'll, uh, I'll be doing like a cooking video or something, and I'll go through and I'll like, I have my little shtick of whatever I'm gonna say.
This is a recipe, whatever. Second the camera goes on, I stumble through my words. I don't- Yeah ... I completely forget what I was gonna say. I just... And it's, it's some sort of psychological thing in, in your head. It just changes things.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah. And I'll give you another [00:53:00] example that's, like, happened yesterday. I was on a set and we had, um- We had an interviewee I was interviewing, but there was like four or five other people in the room, including the employer of one of the chefs I was interviewing.
And it- I could tell that was rattling him. The fact that, but, you know, I've got a producer and an exec producer and the person's employer and me and the ca- two cameras, and like, of course that person's gonna fail in that moment. It's nobody... Unless you're used to it, it's an intimidating thing. And I think one of my skills in my occupation has been to be able to break that down to nothing, so, or at least as little as possible so that when we're having conversations with people, you do get emotional moments from folks 'cause we're talking about stuff that they care about, and there's no one else in the room to judge their moment where they're getting emotional or whatever.
Um, and because I get to build rapport with these people, you know how [00:54:00] it goes when you're in the field with someone. You get close pretty fast. Uh, so it becomes more personal, and From The Wild has always been that way. It's, it's super, it's just me and friends. This is not me casting people to be on a show.
It's me and people who I'm already friends with, and we're actually, this is the documentation of us hanging out in the field doing fun things, like for real. So, um, having, having an, a camera guy in the backseat while you're driving to a location and you're, you can't talk about the problems you might be having at home or what- like, w- those types of conversations that friends have when you're having a trip together, uh, that was a bit of a deal breaker.
That was a long answer, but that's why.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, no, I, I fi- I find that interesting, um, especially when you talk about your perspective when you're filming and I, I, I, I'm not gonna be able to, uh, say this, uh, I don't know. I, I'm sort of stumbling through my words here, but it's like- Go for it ... [00:55:00] well, you talking about how you film your show, and to me, when you're describing it, it's you sort of sitting back, experiencing it, but viewing it through the lens and wanting other people to join you on that journey of, like, experiencing it through the lens.
Mm-hmm. But how you just described filming it, you're so in that moment with that person, and the camera's not even there. It's, it's, it seems like it's almost at opposites how you, how you describe it, but I mean, it, it obviously works. I, I don't know. I don't know. May- maybe even when you were describing filming it, uh, you...
I don't know. Again, sort of jumbling through my words here, but Is what it is.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah, and it is, uh, it's, uh, not the standard way to produce anything.
Tiffany Bader: Mm.
Kevin Kossowan: And, and i- i- self shooting stuff has become more normal, and it wasn't worth, uh... I sure learned a lot working with Les Stroud and learning a lot about his, kinda some of [00:56:00] his tricks for when Survivorman was invented- Mm
uh, back when self shooting was not a thing at all. So he was for sure the pioneer of that idea. Um, but s- self shooting stuff wasn't anything I wanted to do, just for the record.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Um, I was happily not... I was happy to not be on camera, uh, for From The Wild. It was both difficult to do because I was behind the camera-
Tiffany Bader: Mm
Kevin Kossowan: and I'm just not the type that wants to be, have the camera pointed at me. Uh, some people love it. I'm indifferent, and I used to hate it.
Tiffany Bader: Mm.
Kevin Kossowan: Uh, but over the years people kept saying like, "Who are, who's that person on From The Wild? I don't even know who that person... I don't care who that person is." Like, it made me really aware of-
Tiffany Bader: Mm.
Kevin Kossowan: I'm like, "That's one of the best chefs in the country, arguably the best." And people are like, "I don't know." I guess his name's John. Um- And it made me aware that like, oh, I should've showed up in that episode or maybe I should show up in my own show, and that I was the only through line and that I was the only person that was actually doing consistent learning, and my growth curve was like s- like straight or [00:57:00] exponential, and other people would dabble in it with me.
And so their, their learning curves were different. Um, so I learned probably about four or five years in, maybe six years in s- how to properly, uh, film stuff of just me doing my thing. Um, and it gets easier and easier and easier as you go.
Tiffany Bader: And so you're starting, you said starting season 13 this year?
Kevin Kossowan: Yep.
We've already started shooting it. Yeah. Shooting the second episode here soon.
Tiffany Bader: Uh, are you, you s- sort of sticking around Alberta or are you, are you, are you doing some episodes out in BC again?
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah, uh, episodes three and four will be in BC on the west coast.
Tiffany Bader: Nice. What are you, uh, what are you targeting?
Kevin Kossowan: Well, nothing, right?
Tiffany Bader: N-
Kevin Kossowan: yeah, exactly. If we've been paying attention.
Tiffany Bader: Trick, trick question. I was like-
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah ...
Tiffany Bader: targeting is not the right word, but, uh-
Kevin Kossowan: No, uh, we're going to go back to an island that I dearly love that kind of became my home base on the west coast off the coast of Uki. Um, [00:58:00] and the idea... I'm going with one of my, a buddy of mine who was a former winemaker.
Uh, he still makes wine, non- nonalcoholic wines now, uh, in the Okanagan. Mm. Um, and we're going there to do, like, the holistic approach. Uh- Cool ... we're gonna do some crab crabbing, and we're gonna catch some fish. You can't put up a lot of fish when you're in a sea kayak camp like that. There's no refrigeration or ice or anything.
By day two the ice is toast anyway. Uh, so- Um, it really will be probably goose barnacle focus and crab focus. Um, but who knows? I mean, it, it depends on what we, what we track down. But goose barnacles are something that we haven't spent enough time on and, um, and that island has lots. So that will be kind of, uh, in my mind, a bit of a catch and cook episode.
Like, very, very basic. Like the... It always blew me away that the, in the bushcraft world, uh, people in Ontario could just like backpack into the backcountry and like make themselves a bush shelter and cook a steak and like- ... have 5, 50, 50 [00:59:00] million views on YouTube. I'm like, "Wow, really?" Um, so I, I'm aware that, that, the simplicity of that as a format works.
And then the second one, uh, I've long been trying to figure out how do you put up a substantial amount of seafood, uh, when you're sea kayaking- Mm ... sea kayak fishing, um, to bring home? That's harder than it sounds, because you're living on an island, you catch the stuff, we are paddling back to Ucluelet, dumping it off at the local fishmonger, getting them to flash freeze it for us, and then back in the boats and back out we go.
Mm-hmm. So it's going to be a, a bit of a, an, a mission, and we'll be doing some halibut fishing too, which will be a bit of a, an interesting- Oh, yeah ... thing to do on a sea kayak.
Tiffany Bader: You're, you're gonna have to bring a 50-pound sack of salt.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah?
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, just... Yeah, no, I've been talking with, with Lori about coming on the podcast, and, um, I mean, she's Newfoundland and salt cod, and just kinda got me thinking one of the ways- Oh, I see
you can process your fish is just salt all your fish.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah. Um, I had an [01:00:00] elder lady, uh, on the West Coast recommend, like, uh, dig a big hole in the beach-
Tiffany Bader: Okay ...
Kevin Kossowan: like, at low tide- Yeah ... and bury the stuff in, in bags, and let the w- ocean water, um, keep it cold. Haven't done it.
Tiffany Bader: Hmm.
Kevin Kossowan: I think, uh, I think a flash freeze is my first choice.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. No, I, I think there's some technology that we wanna go with, and, and it's- Yeah ... especially with fish, it's just you don't wanna mess around. Um-
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah. Oh, the other piece of that is I've been studying, uh, sonar- Hmm ... uh, via Navionics up the bottom of that entire sound.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: And, uh, have been looking at where I think the lingcod pinnacles are at their best.
Tiffany Bader: Yes.
Kevin Kossowan: Um, and know that I've paddled over some that, uh, we didn't fish at all 'cause we just didn't know they were there. So I'm, I'm making a very intentional, like I'm plotting probably- Hmm ... six to 10 different pinnacles in that area that we're gonna fish very intentionally at certain tide points. Yeah. Um, which is a v- a different methodology.
It's weird. Uh, there's, [01:01:00] uh, on the east side of the island, my f- my cousins introduced me to the ocean. They were fishing guides, uh, or at Sonora Island, which is out by, uh, hour and a half northeast of Campbell River by boat, and their current wins the day. And as fishing guides, they were so specific. Like, when I was lingcod fishing there a few years ago, they said, uh, "On the beginning of the ebb tide, uh, get to 150 feet between that rock and that log, and you'll pull up a big lingcod every time."
And you would go, and you would do that. Um, and we've been able to fish all kinds of species like that. I find on the west side of the island, there's less, uh, it's a bit more spray hitting. There's a little less, uh, precision, uh, or s- specificity of location and timing. So I'm trying to take what I learned on the east side of the island fishing wise and move it to the west side of the island and learn some specific structure and timing around tides.
So, uh, that may [01:02:00] completely fail, uh, but I'm, it's fun to try.
Tiffany Bader: I, you know, I- that's what I love about fishing though. There's like, you go out with some people and they're like, "Oh, well, the moon's this or the moon's that, and you know, the tide or it's, it's a Wednesday, so you're not gonna do it." And he, uh, like, they'll be very specific.
And then other people just kinda go out and they catch fish, and you're like, "Goddammit, how do you do that every time?" Yeah. Travis is one of those guys. I go fishing with him, he catches fish, and I fall in the water or whatever it i- My waders get full of water. But he, he just like, I, I almost think he, he loves it so much, he just like, his mind clears and it- Mm
gives him space for the fish to come in and, and be caught. Mm. And, but yeah. No, it's, um, the BC coast is an amazing place, and it, there's some A lot of different species that you can catch in the water. I, um-
Kevin Kossowan: Oh, yeah ...
Tiffany Bader: I've been, I've been, uh... There's a guy on social media, I can't remember his, his [01:03:00] account, but he's, he's, like, his whole shtick is, "I've got a year and I'm gonna catch and cook."
Oh, yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: I saw that, yeah.
Tiffany Bader: I think it like JP Eats or something like that. He cooked- Yeah ... a starfish the other day and ate it. Oh, yeah. And it was like, um, sort of like a sea urchin, I guess. He, he said it wasn't very good, but, like, I am pretty blown away with the stuff that he is eating. It's way extends past your, you know, your salmon and rockfish and-
Kevin Kossowan: Oh.
Oh, yeah. That's a big topic, passionate topic of mine, as you might imagine.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: I was interviewing a professor at UVic, uh, years ago, uh, who was working on, um, c- uh, sea lice and salmon farming and, and a whole bunch of other interesting topics, um, off the side of his desk because they're unpopular to do research on, um, for economic and political reasons.
Yeah, right. But anyway, he was talking, he was talking about what, um, uh... He was actually a leader in the slow food community there, and talking to me about sustainable, uh, aquaculture and sustainable [01:04:00] fishing, and it really came down to people need to obsess less about certain species and think more about what's popular right now, actually, in the cities, like sardines.
People are catching on to little fish around here for whatever reason. I mean, depe- you go to a different country like Spain or Portugal, and they're huge. They have stores just for that. Um, but, uh, here, if you were to go, uh, book a fishing guide off the coast of the BC and ask to not fish for salmon or halibut, but other things, they would look at you like you're bloody crazy.
And if you're like, "I don't want rockfish either. I just want, like, squid and herring," like, they, they're not even geared for that. They'd have no equipment for that or skills to do it probably.
Tiffany Bader: I've, I've done that before. They're like, "W- what? We can get halibut." Like m- we're in Alaska. We're like, "Can we, can we go for squid?
Like, I've, I've never caught a squid. Like, I really wanna go." I
Kevin Kossowan: love
Tiffany Bader: that. Yeah, and they're like- That's
Kevin Kossowan: so cool ... "
Tiffany Bader: Sorry, what? No, we're gonna catch a few halibut first-" Yeah "... and then we'll do the squid." I'm like, "What, what? This is what we wanna do." Like, you
Kevin Kossowan: know? I find [01:05:00] the, the, the analog here is a human me who's grown up- Yeah
on moose meat as a kid, and then you realize, oh, that's one thing, and we could just focus on the one thing, and now elk has b- kind of become the n- next thing for the older generation to, to focus on. But they're spending no time hunting a gray partridge, which is arguably the best bird in the province.
Tiffany Bader: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah. Uh, or worrying about filling their pronghorn tag, which is probably arguably the best tasting game meat in the province. Um, so it's just interesting how we fixate to... It, it actually, I find it really frustrating how humans fixate on specific species as the desirable stuff-
Tiffany Bader: Yeah ...
Kevin Kossowan: and then ignore everything else.
So, uh- I w when I went to go learn the Pacific Northwest stuff, I thought, "I'm gonna get this. I've got an entire winter. There can't be that much to learn." And then the Pacif- the Pacific Ocean species count is like 235,000 species in the Pacific Ocean. I was like, "Oh, no. Okay, you're not gonna learn all this in a lifetime."
Tiffany Bader: [01:06:00] Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Um, but it speaks to, like, if there's 235,000 species in the Pacific, and all you care about is a Chinook salmon and a halibut, you're missing the bulk of it, the rest of it, um, which is just to me, uh, bizarre. And it's, it's not even about flavor or food at that point. It's not even, like, about, um, "Oh, but there's so many other textures and flavors you could experience."
'Cause I don't blame someone for being, "Yeah, but I like salmon." I'm like, "So do I. I like salmon a ton." It's more about, um For me, you could spend the whole day salmon fishing and not catch a salmon, or you could just, like, fill your boat full of all kinds of species of stuff that are just right there. Not saying don't salmon fish, but there's, like, all kinds of other things that are just always right in your face, and people don't, uh, engage with it and therefore don't have any knowledge about it, which is just a bummer.
I'm bummed- Yeah ... about the [01:07:00] lack of knowledge of seaweeds on the, on the BC coast. It's just brutal. I just- There's... It's
Tiffany Bader: bad. It's such a novelty. It's, it's like-
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah ...
Tiffany Bader: uh, the... And the only way you tend to see it is, like, kelp sliced into rings and pickled.
Kevin Kossowan: Yep.
Tiffany Bader: I mean, it... Very, very rarely do you see any... Maybe blended with salt, but there's not much.
Kevin Kossowan: I shot a project once in Norway, uh, with a bunch of people from Netflix's Chef's Table and a whole bunch of Michelin star chefs from around the world. There was a, a long story, but the, um, there was a Taiwanese chef there who the Norwegian government was asking, "So what has impressed you? Of all the things we've shown you of our entire country and all of our awesome stuff, uh, what do you like the most?"
And he said, "Your seaweed-" Mm. "... is outstanding." Like, there's... Doesn't exist around- Mm ... his part of the world, and they have just an incredible, um, biodiversity and abundance of seaweeds, and I, and so do we. That's the only p- I don't think I've ever seen healthier, more beautiful oceans than the coast of [01:08:00] BC, and I've shot in California, Oregon, Columbia, Japan, China, like, all over the place.
Yeah. And the Pacific Northwest, or BC specifically, is just stunning. Anyway, it's just an example of something that most people don't spend any time with. And I'm not saying you should spend all your time there, but at least know how to use it a bit, you know, the basics. And, uh, and there's a time and place where it's, like, a, a clutch ingredient that, that makes a dish, uh, go from, you know, basic and okay to, to, to excellent, so.
Tiffany Bader: I... My grandparents used to go to the beach and collect seaweed and throw it in their garden. Like, there's-
Kevin Kossowan: Oh, yeah ...
Tiffany Bader: there's... I mean, there's more than just culinary uses too. Like, there's- Yeah ... for people that wanna be outside, it just allows you to be outside more days, you know? Like you said- I think, I think-
you, you can't fish salmon every day
Kevin Kossowan: I'm gonna re-spin that. It's almost like if you wanna be a person who knows how to exist in this world, uh, in a way that's not attached to your Visa card being your permission to [01:09:00] existence-
Tiffany Bader: Yeah ...
Kevin Kossowan: where you actually can use your brain and your body and your skills and knowledge and, um, and do and, and, and interact with the planet.
That's been one of the weirdest takeaways to observe as a mentor, host, filmmaker, whatever I, it is that I'm doing, is to have some humans that live in, like, uh, some colleagues that are in Toronto, and one in particular that came on the show, and hunting for her became, um, almost like agency in the world.
Like a way to feel like she could provide for herself in a way that she didn't feel capable of prior, and that, that the, uh, the boreal forest can do this to a person too. Like, that there's so much abundance of shelter and warmth and food, uh, plants and fish, and like it's just, if you need something, it's here.
Uh, that that's, um... I've, I've witnessed that two or three times and find it really powerful, and it maybe is one of the things that, uh, [01:10:00] that's motivated me along the way, I don't know. But, um, but I do, I do find it, uh, a potent thing when people have been in the field for a few days and all of a sudden go, "Oh, interesting.
I feel just like more of a capable human in this world and feel better in my own skin," and-
Tiffany Bader: It's, I feel like I'm kicking a dead horse here, but like if you bought eight cases of toilet paper during COVID, I, I think you would benefit from spending more time outside, right? Like getting, getting a little bit more comfortable with how things really work, and- Yeah
if you're able to provide an opportunity for people to like build a shelter, you know, catch some food, like it really does build confidence. I saw it, I mean, I saw it myself. I, I saw it in my son when he, when he went hunting for his first deer and was successful in, in harvesting one, he became a totally different person.
Like he just- Hmm.
Kevin Kossowan: Interesting ...
Tiffany Bader: he, he f- he was more confident. He was, he, he just became more capable in [01:11:00] everything. And we remove people's, you know, it, in a day-to-day life, people don't have the opportunity to show what they're capable of anymore, aside from getting in a car and getting road raging, sitting in front of a computer screen.
So when they're able to source food and provide basic necessities for themself, I think it, I think it does that for them.
Kevin Kossowan: Yeah. And I bump into a number of people who are, because I guide foraging a lot, um, like 50 times a year at the most-
Tiffany Bader: Hmm
Kevin Kossowan: There are people who are really interested in the herbal medicine side of things.
Mm. And so when you expand the notion of food as just something that tastes good as a cook or a chef, uh, to something that's keeping me alive, some- who is maybe the bushcraft survivalist person is interest. Uh, but the idea that some of these cocktails, the origin of the gin and tonic, for example, uh, the tonic having quinine in it, uh, because it's an antimalarial, and the [01:12:00] lime being, uh, s- to prevent you from getting scurvy, and the gin being effectively a multivitamin, uh, prior to Flintstone vitamins and gummy bears.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Uh, people actually took, uh, plant medicine through the format of gin and liqueurs. That was, that's their origin.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Kevin Kossowan: Um, so food, that's one of the places I still think is fascinating 'cause food expands from being just something that is like, "Oh, well now I don't have to buy that beef from the store 'cause I shot a, a deer," uh, all the way to, um, you know, m- m- managing your health through, um, through your engagement with nature, uh, both through your diet and through, um, like herbal medicine stuff.
It's just bonkers that it can extend that far, and that there's so much interconnectivity between that and mixology. It's just endlessly interesting, so fascinating. That's an area that I'm still a dunce in, uh, b- and I know I am because my, one of my best friends, Robert Rogers, who's on the [01:13:00] show, has written 65 books on herbal plant and fungus medicine.
Tiffany Bader: Wow.
Kevin Kossowan: He's 76, I think, this year, something like that. Oh
Tiffany Bader: my God.
Kevin Kossowan: And, 75. And he, uh, that's all he's ever done is write books on the subject. So when we go in the field together, it's just, you just shut up and listen 'cause he can tell you about... He, he learned, uh, he became a well-known speaker in fungal medicine and travels the world speaking on the subject, and he only learned about that once he ran out of plants to learn about.
Tiffany Bader: Well, I, I think that's probably a good place to stop. Um-
Kevin Kossowan: Great ...
Tiffany Bader: I really appreciate you, uh, you joining me today and, um, I will make sure to put links to your show. Um, anything else, uh, people might wanna know about you, I, I'll get that information and I'll, uh, I'll link it over to, uh, to your website and all the rest.
Kevin Kossowan: Okay, sounds
Tiffany Bader: good. Awesome. Thank you very [01:14:00] much.