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Join Dr. Kim Kutsch, the brilliant mind behind CariFree, as he explores the extraordinary lives of thought leaders in the dental industry, and beyond. Contrary to Ordinary explores further than dentistry - here we unravel the minds of change-makers, paradigm shifters, and world shakers.
Every two weeks, we dive into the stories of our remarkable guests—ordinary people who continually defy limits. Discover their tales of success, resilience, and self-awareness, and explore how they leverage these experiences not only to elevate dental practice and patient care but also to champion personal growth and entrepreneurship. Listen for captivating conversations with innovators who seamlessly blend art and technology, pursue curiosity, and create the truly extraordinary.
Contrary to Ordinary isn't your typical dentistry podcast—it's a vibrant community that's hit #1 in ‘Entrepreneurship,’ #3 in ‘Business,’ and #21 in ‘All Podcasts’ for a reason. We've had the pleasure of hosting inspiring guests like innovators, dental leaders, pioneering inventors, and artists, including Angus Walls, Machell Hudson, Dr. Simon McDonald, Dr. Bobby Birdi, Rella Christensen, Professor Phillip D. Marsh, Carmen Ohling, John Kois, Dr. Susan Maples, Doug Young, Colt Idol, Stephanie Staples, and many more who've graced our mic.
Each episode isn't just a listen; it's a lesson in living an extraordinary life authentically, embracing rebellion, and nurturing leadership. We dive into diverse topics, from mentoring, coaching, personal development, and work-life balance to self-awareness, emotional intelligence, leadership, storytelling, altruism, and motivation. And yes, we also cover dentistry—exploring natural dentists, dental health, dental laboratories, oral care, oral surgery, dental hygiene, caries disease, brushing teeth, and overall tooth care.
Tune in to Contrary to Ordinary for a unique blend of wisdom that goes beyond the ordinary and resonates with all aspects of life! This podcast aims to empower you to be extraordinary in your dental practice and improve not just your dental care but your overall life!
Do you have an extraordinary story you’d like to share with us? Or perhaps a question for Dr. Kutsch. Contact us on our Instagram, Facebook or Twitter today.
About Our Host:
Meet Dr. Kim Kutsch: a retired dentist with 40 years of experience, prolific writer, thought leader, inventor, and researcher in dental caries and minimally invasive dentistry, brings his insatiable curiosity to the forefront. Eager to learn from those breaking boundaries in dentistry, particularly in preventative and non-invasive dentistry approaches, Dr. Kutsch launched the Contrary to Ordinary podcast. As a keen creative and curious mind, Dr. Kutsch extends his podcast guest list to artists, entrepreneurs, and fascinating minds who have piqued his interest. He wants to learn from them and see how he can be inspired by their extraordinary ways of living and adapt his learnings into his own life and his business, CariFree.
About CariFree:
CariFree is the new model for oral health and cavity prevention. Dr. Kutsch is the CEO and founder of this business. They create cutting-edge technology and science-based solutions to common dental health concerns for the whole family, making it easy to banish cavities for good with preventive strategies over restorative procedures. Find out how dentists are using CariFree products to revolutionize their dental practices here: https://carifree.com/success-stories/.
Recording:
Extraordinary.
Leader.
Innovative.
Integrity.
Honest.
Courageous.
Curious.
Thoughtful.
Brave.
Unafraid.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
There is a place where technology and art meet, where work and play are one in the same. When the threads of curiosity are pulled in this place, the spark of innovation ripples across industries. Those who make this place their home are giants. Titans, who pursue creative passion while leaving their mark.
Recording:
Creative.
Flexible.
Brilliant.
Clever.
Confident.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
They are courageous thought leaders set on changing the practice of dentistry in their corner of the world. More than the sum of their parts, we deconstruct the traits that bind these uncommon innovators.
Recording:
Humble.
Daring.
Discipline.
Playful.
Principles.
Spontaneous.
Open.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
To discover what makes them contrary to ordinary where we explore the extraordinary. Hi there. I'm Dr. Kim Kutsch, host and founder at CariFree. I'm fascinated by what makes the paradigm shifters, world shakers and art makers tick. Let's embark on a journey. Extraordinary is a place where ordinary people choose to exist. Together we will trek the peaks of possibility, illuminate the depths of resilience and navigate the boundless landscape of innovation. To discover how some of the most innovative dentists and thought leaders unlocked their potential and became extraordinary. On this season of Contrary to Ordinary, we explore the motivation, lives and character of the innovators who see limitless potential around them. The people behind some of the largest paradigm shifts in the practice of dentistry. The renowned Kois Center has revolutionized dental care. It was the first center to provide a graduate program for practicing dentists that implemented a structured science-based curriculum. It may be hard to believe but in years past, a lot of dental practice was rooted in opinion. I went through dental school in the 70s.
Back then, we didn't have as many options for care and we were trained to use heroic measures to save each and every tooth. I remember sitting in the first presentation on opening day at the Kois Center. I could not know then what a huge impact this institution would have on my life and the world. But I knew we were in for a change when founder John Kois stood at the podium and shared a story from his childhood.
Dr. John Kois:
When I was nine years old, I was in a boat explosion with my dad. We had a small boat with a gas leak and it exploded and we were actually five miles offshore in the Atlantic Ocean. Fortunately, we were rescued fairly quickly because the flames alerted someone that alerted the Coast Guard. Once the helicopter came I knew we would be okay and when they pluck you out of the water, that's an amazing feeling.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
After John recounted that story, he said something contradictory to everything we had been taught. He said that dentists are not the Coast Guard, we don't have to go out today. Each tooth does not need to be addressed with the immediacy of a raft escaping the burning wreckage of decay. He advocated for an interdisciplinary research backed approach to whole patient care. The Kois Center remains the only continuous learning center for dental professionals that conducts and publishes its own research. Self funded, the research is not beholden to the interest of sponsors. Today I have the distinct pleasure of exploring the elements that make the man behind the legendary Kois Center extraordinary. John Kois is unique in the realm of innovation, he did not start out with the ambition to make a vision a reality. He simply saw a need, followed his curiosity and went all in.
Dr. John Kois:
I didn't see myself the way I see myself today with the center.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
Because I started everybody else. I was providing lectures to bigger groups all around the world and I was looking for an opportunity to consolidate kind of the material and improve the benefit level to the students or the dentists that were coming. Because it wasn't just about education, it was about implementation. I started to get more frustrated when I would go places, people would tell me nice things but it's not really changing their lives. The problem with the person giving the lecture is you don't grow from that experience. I think what's happened to me being at the teaching center, being with small groups of people that it's a more intimate experience number one. But number two, when they're coming back through the continuum now I get to live through what their frustrations are in trying to understand and learn. I think what created the system the way you know it today is what has emerged from the ashes, so to speak. Of the frustrations of people and learning when they start to be similar frustrations we try to do things to resolve those issues for people.
I think the system is based on what I call intellectualized simplification. Where you think about something so much that you start to make breakthroughs that now you can digest this information and it's not so fragmented, it's not like dental school was. Even though dental school had great components to them, it was difficult to put them together. So in the literature now they call this... So it's a slang kind of a term but it's called combinatorial explosion. Whereas you learn to do certain things individually, it becomes much more powerful when they interrelate collectively and that's the idea. I actually believe that you come to the center, even for the first course you go home a different dentist. In order to do that, I started to work through different ways of delivering the information and different ways to involve the audience. Because I tell people when you get here, listen you're all grown ass people.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
You have your name on a door and I know you can all do this. I'm just trying to make it better and the nutshell of the center is the phone should ring for two reasons in your practice. Reason number one is new patients, it's for the growth of the practice and the second reason the phone should ring is praise thanking you for what you had done.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
If the phone rings for anything else don't answer it, it's bad. Right? It's bad.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It's never good news.
Dr. John Kois:
All those adverse events or negative experiences is how the center was designed, it was designed reverse engineering to say how can I research and account for all the negative things and improve on that? So that's the basis of it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
What you love, what you are great at, what the world needs, what you can get paid for. According to the Japanese concept of ikigai, where all four elements converge is where life purpose lives. It can be described as the sense of mastery or the thing that gets you out of bed in the morning, being completely dialed into a sense of purpose is one indicator of innovators who lead extraordinary lives. John's purpose is palpable and the Kois Center is a physical extension of that passion. John and the center might be a perfect example of finding ikigai but it never started as a money-making venture.
Dr. John Kois:
It's happened by evolution, not revolution. I didn't suddenly say I'm doing this, I'm going to just create this center. It just started to happen organically, the center never started as a business or an economic platform. It started as a way of disseminating the information and then it required a business to be able to make it sustainable. So that point is the inception of the growth of the educational system here at the center. But as I look back, I would never say that I envisioned the way it is today.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You also have a research center here?
Dr. John Kois:
I do.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You're the only education center like that that I'm aware of in the world that has its own research center and actually publishes research.
Dr. John Kois:
Yes. Now it's even more significant than ever with Marta here, she is not only a prosthodontist but also has a PhD in digital dentistry. My son's a prosthodontist but Marta has... Since she's been here, well in the last two years has published over 150 articles. Let me tell you, she is a researching force and we need that in the digital realm. Because there's so much technology coming out so fast that we're not sure what to do with it, what it always means and it's almost like dentistry is being invented on another platform. People talk about analog to digital or wax up with a wax spatula or a mouse, they still represent some core principles. But using the technology is getting very difficult to try to sort out based on the magnitude of the technology that's at our disposal, the cost, the adoption rate, the understanding of it. But it's created some unique challenges but I think that's added a huge amount of excitement to dentistry.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I think so too John, and it seems like there's almost an explosion of technology coming out in the digital world. I know across the profession in terms of advancing where we're going with that in diagnosis and treatment planning and following patients care. You've advanced the ball so far and yet I know you and I are both sitting here looking at it going like... I can't even see the end of the playing field from here.
Dr. John Kois:
No. You know part of that that's actually emerging more than where it was and I thought it would be, is actually allowing younger practitioners to even pivot a little bit because people want to be able to work from home a little bit. Well if you have access to technology, maybe you could use some of the digital systems to access all the case workups that you do and using... Or managing your files and doing your digital design pieces with whatever software system you'd like to learn how to use.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
It's been a game changer and I would say it's easier to teach somebody how to maybe what we would call wax a case or design a case, moving them from the spatula to the file once they understand. It's unbelievable how to leverage the talents that we have in now other ways that's really broadened the practitioner's perspective. It's pretty significant right now.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. I'd agree with you, I think it's hugely significant. I mean, I was sitting in a lecture just last summer listening to an oral surgeon who specializes in treating cancer patients and they're doing robotic surgery. Harvesting a part of the fibula that they had three months prior placed dental implants into the fibula and they're taking out this section and a patient goes in with oral cancer in the morning and six hours later walks out with teeth and they do this all in CAD/CAM. They do it all ahead of time, they've mapped out the robotic parts of it and I just sat there. My mind was blown as I looked at this and I thought, how much progress we've made in the last 20 years for the quality of life for those people. I mean to imagine being able to have that kind of treatment available to you today and then I sat and I thought, I wonder what it's going to look like 20 years from now?
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right?
Dr. John Kois:
When you talk about that, I am a little bit older than you are but we've kind of practiced in about the same era of dentistry.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yep.
Dr. John Kois:
I live in an area where we've moved from doing gold foils to learning artificial intelligence and machine learning and it's pretty interesting. Right? What is happening and all these transitions and I think that in itself is creating a lot of tension in our profession because most dentists are training for yesterday. The future is moving so fast that if we don't catch up, it's not just learning what we need to know to survive. It's learning and continuing our information based and our knowledge base to thrive in the future which is not that easy.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. I think AI represents kind of an exciting and scary opportunity for us going forward. I mean, I can really see some incredible value it can bring in terms of creating consistency and care levels between practitioners and reliability in terms of diagnosis. But also a little just scary from the standpoint of like well, where does that all lead to? Right? I've looked at a AI program that they're developing for reading digital x-rays, Interprox, more lesions. Is this tooth cavitated or not? That's kind of the decision point on whether we need to place a filling or not and because those radiographs when we read them we know what the percentages of cavitation are. But we can't really determine which ones are cavitated or not by looking at that radiograph. Well, we can take computer programming but if it starts with that same basic radiograph it can't be any better than we are. Right?
Dr. John Kois:
Correct.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So what we need long term then is some new I think scanning technology where we can actually is it cavitated or not? Kind of have that answer. So I think it has limitations at the moment but it's pretty exciting to see where it's going to go.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. We've published on some of those things you've talked about. I think I do have some of the younger dentists that, AI is intimidating but you know what you brought to light is what we do. There's three things that make you sustainable and if you focus on them you're sustainable and that's risk assessment, making decisions that you could maybe get some help from a computer. But ultimately you are going to make that decision and that's not going to go to a computer by itself. The second one is where teeth go in the face, aesthetics.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
Then the third one is how to make teeth fit together and it sounds easy but it's not. So when we learn what to focus on as we move forward, it's kind of like today you don't have to learn to park a car you could buy a car that parks itself. So maybe I don't have to spend so much time focusing on the things that have become obsolete.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Absolutely. One of the things that I identify about the center is you've created a safe space, right? I think one of the things in the environment with your tribe, you've created a space where people are comfortable being themselves. Right? I think by being so vulnerable yourself and open and sharing your failures. I think you've created an environment where it's like okay, I don't have to be perfect, I recognize I'm going to have some failures. I need to take the lessons away from that but all of us are smarter than one of us, right?
Dr. John Kois:
It's palpable even at the center because when people come on the first day and they don't know each other.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
By the time we get to know each other and feel comfortable with each other, the safety piece that you mentioned.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
Learning really kicks in and I like to say it's also a famous quote, "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Dr. John Kois:
I think that as you put that together, I feel that people really flourish in an environment they're comfortable with. If that's not going to happen, the education is much harder to... You have to feel like it's being pushed into you rather than just absorbed into you.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Well, and it's authentic and genuine right? That's the atmosphere there. The magnitude of the talent of the people that are there, it's like I've never seen that collection of talent and knowledge base. But really just dedicated, incredible people in one place at one time in our profession. It's breathtaking to me.
Dr. John Kois:
That never leaves my mind, I think about that a lot. I think we've had seven presidents of the AACD.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Dr. John Kois:
I mean, what's even more interesting is there are so many impressive people that's not just by their achievements. It's when you get to know who they are, as people they're impressive and how many people are incredibly artistic or musically inclined in addition to dentistry? I'm in awe, everybody that comes there's something they bring to the table that I learned from in their uniqueness. So I've tried real hard to know the people that have been here in some ways because maybe this is my opportunity to let them know they've touched my life in ways that they'll never realize either. Sometimes a small interaction with somebody is more meaningful or more significant than the amount of time that has transpired, but the impact value could be more significant.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So what would you consider your greatest professional success?
Dr. John Kois:
I'm most proud of my relationship with my students or now they're my friends or all the people that continue to tell me that it's been a wonderful experience in how we're working together.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
Because it's changed their life and changed the lives of their patients and that's tremendously gratifying for me as a professional to feel like I have had that impact and to have people comfortable enough sharing that with me.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. Do you ever just step back and look at your life and the number of people that you've made an impact and a difference in their life? Are there ever days when you just step back and go, wow?
Dr. John Kois:
What I feel is really important is... Even when people are saying nice things, is to maintain a level of humility so you don't get full of yourself.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
So it's easy for me to control that, all I have to do is take out the garbage and I know-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
All you have to do is talk to one of your two kids.
Dr. John Kois:
Just like everybody else.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Some circumstances in life are out of our control but it is our reaction to these events that determine the trajectory of our lives. John has chosen to be proactive, to be the agent, the actor, the choice maker in his story. Not a victim of circumstance, perhaps John made the choice to be extraordinary.
Dr. John Kois:
My parents got divorced when I was an early teen and that was hard on the family, so I can understand what that's like to families.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
I was a person that helped to raise my younger brothers and helped my mom and that taught me a whole lot of discipline very fast. We were a family of very modest means, my dad was a furrier because I'm Greek by nature and Greek's are either in the restaurant business or in the fur business back then.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Wow.
Dr. John Kois:
I grew up in Brooklyn, New York and that was a very modest upbringing but it was good. Everything was good.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
John, you're a very caring and compassionate and passionate individual. Did some of those values come do you think from that experience?
Dr. John Kois:
I don't know if it's just my nature or those things shaped my nature.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
At what point in time did you decide you want to be a dentist? Were you like the six-year-old John?
Dr. John Kois:
No. Actually it was in college, I was originally thinking about a career in medicine or by the way a career in education or a career in technology. I was a systems' analyst for IBM.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Wow.
Dr. John Kois:
I had to help pay my way... I was part-time.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
Trying to pay my way through college and that's my first introduction to computers. When a computer took up a whole room and it uses key punch cards-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. Exactly, I remember those days.
Dr. John Kois:
Not like today. During dental school after my wife and I got married my scholarship was taken away and we were on hard financial times and I applied for an Air Force scholarship. So the Air Force created an opportunity for me to enter a general practice residency and begin my career serving as an officer in the Air Force. By the second year I had applied for specialty training and the Air Force allowed me to go to any specialty training in the country. I chose the University of Washington out here because it had one of the few periopros programs in the world. At the time there were three, this was one of them. Because it followed my original mentor Morey Amsterdam the other person that was in charge of this program was Ralph Yuodelis. Who was also famous at the time for perioprosthesis and it was that that drove me to the West Coast. At that time I had never been west of the Mississippi River.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Wow. So what'd you think of the West Coast when you got here the first time?
Dr. John Kois:
I actually actually quite enjoyed it, it was something I needed. It seemed so peaceful relative to what I was exposed to in the past, especially then. But which we're talking now in the early 80s, late 70s and so it was a really nice change.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's a pretty unusual program having the periodontal and restorative dentistry, prosthodontics all in one program.
Dr. John Kois:
It was a several year program, I was finished in two years and it literally changed my life for the rest of my life. Actually to be fair, my first year of dental school I thought I made the wrong choice. I didn't think I would really enjoy it until I got more involved in the clinical aspects and started to meet some of the people who would then later on inspire me to go on to do other things. I would say I don't have an origin story that created a compelling reason for me to become a dentist. My experience as a young dental patient wasn't exceptional but believe me I've never looked back and dentistry has been great to me and great to my family and great to my life and no regrets.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
John, you have been great to dentistry. I'm sitting here listening to you say the first year you may have changed your mind and I'm thinking what a tremendous loss that would've been for the world based on what you've done with the rest of your career. So glad you stuck it out John, you mentioned Morty Amsterdam a little earlier. Who would you identify as some of your mentors in your life?
Dr. John Kois:
So the two biggest ones were Morton Amsterdam and D. Walter Cohen. As a sophomore dental student when I first got introduced to Morty, he would be what today people would considered an expert. There'd be questions involved but once Morty would weigh in, nobody else would say anything else. Then it became Saul Schluger and Ralph Yuodelis who was the director of my graduate program when I was a graduate student. I would cite those four people as significant people in shaping my dental life.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
How did they shape it? I mean, what kind of lessons or things did you take away from them?
Dr. John Kois:
Morty did more of that than anyone, because what he brought to me was doing dentistry is not just working on individual teeth and brought a much broader view. In fact I credit him with actually developing the concept of interdisciplinary treatment. Because up to that point people never put the whole piece together between all the aspects of what he did, it was huge. I mean, considering what he started 70 years ago is unfathomable by today's standards and we take that for granted but that really inspired me to see much more than what I was looking at. What I try to explain to even people that I work with today, single tooth dentistry doesn't mean simple-minded dentistry.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
Being able to understand much more than maybe the individuals' situation you're working on involving the cliches of the whole person and all those kinds of things and was really way ahead of its time.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in my own dental school experience every discipline had its own department and you as a student kind of had to put those different pieces together. Nobody actually... In my experience at Oregon, they didn't really lay out an interdisciplinary kind of approach to care.
Dr. John Kois:
Morty did that for me so much. It was very clear to me, I want to do that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
Whatever that is, I want to do that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
John is deeply entrenched in his work and like many extraordinary innovators may not find the perfect work-life balance. But he strives to be fully present wherever he is, whatever he does. John ascribes to a quote from Chateaubriand, "A master in the art of living makes little distinction between work and play."
Dr. John Kois:
The idea of the quote is you don't see any difference between working and playing. To himself he's always doing both and I would say that does epitomize me maybe to a fault in some way but I make no excuse about that. I take what I do seriously but you know what I also try to explain to certainly younger practitioners and people that I'm exposed to. When you're home you need to be home and when you're working you need to be working. So I don't claim to always have balance in my life but I can tell you whatever I'm doing it's 100%. When I go home I work very hard not to be conducting business when I'm home. So whether I'm driving home in my car, I have to finish it before I pull in my garage or wherever my home is so I could be with family. So that's that whole piece on being present and I take that very seriously because I think to all our listeners.
You wouldn't be listening to this if you didn't take what you did seriously and you're a professional about it and we are very committed to what we do and it's very hard to have balance, "Balance." But you could at least have boundaries and if you don't set up boundaries then your life spills over into one or the other and you don't know who you are anymore.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And everything suffers.
Dr. John Kois:
Everything suffers.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I'm working more now than I anticipate I would be if you want to call it work. But I'm having more fun now than I ever had in my life, right? So I think well, so whether it's work or play it's like if you're really enjoying your life experience and you're doing what you enjoy that's what counts.
Dr. John Kois:
I'm fortunate enough now to say the same thing, partly because my needs from work are not the same.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
I'm doing okay, and I really enjoy what I'm doing and you know one of the benefits of being where I am in my career is I certainly know a lot of influential other people and my growth opportunities have now started to accelerate. I'm really enjoying being able to use that to help other people and boost their careers.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
So I get a lot of satisfaction in helping younger people expedite their growth because it was very painful in the beginning. When I talk about my first year in practice, my adjusted gross income was zero and the second year I made less than my hygienist. I am certain that everyone listening to this has their survival story or what they had to go through to pay the bills and it's just that piece. But I'd love to be able to make that easier for people when that's possible.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I'm sitting here John and just reflecting back on my own, I can remember balancing my checkbook on April 15th one year and I had $1.36 left and I was so excited because I was able to pay all of my taxes and I didn't have to borrow money. One of my staff members said, "What are you so excited about?" I said, "I have a $1.36 cents in my checkbook." I know that she looked at me like yeah, you're kidding, that's not true. But when you start from scratch and build a practice anybody that's done that, that's a huge challenge. Even today, back 45 years ago it was, it is today and you have some of those moments. Right?
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. My wife and I still remember when it was two for one at Burger King and we could take advantage of that. We joke about it now but the problems for younger people are the same, they're just bigger.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Dr. John Kois:
The price tags are higher and it's more pressure.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You do a really good job of living in the here and now, like in the present and I'm always looking forward as well. I'm never looking back, right? I mean-
Dr. John Kois:
I'm totally with you, early on when I worked with a lot of the graduate students. When they'd finished their graduate program, I would say to them something like, "I hope you just completed your worst work." They would look at me like I'm crazy because they worked so hard and it was amazing. My point is, if you don't think you can improve then it's time to give up. If I have to draw my satisfaction from any contributions or accomplishments only in the past that's not satisfying for me, it's what I'm doing moving forward.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Today.
Dr. John Kois:
Today.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And tomorrow.
Dr. John Kois:
And tomorrow.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. It's interesting that being a continual student, right? A lifelong student. I think our most important job, our responsibility as a clinician or as a dentist is to be a lifelong student. Right? To always continue to improve... I remember story, I can't remember who, he was a famous violin player and he was in his mid 90s and he was practicing. He was still playing five or six hours a day and they asked him, "You're one of the most accomplished violin players in the world? Why are you still playing?" His response was, "I'm still seeing improvement." Right? In his mind he was still getting better.
Dr. John Kois:
Absolutely.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
He was probably still getting better, right? I'm 68 and I feel like I'm doing the best work of my life right now, right? I hold open the possibility that 10 years from now I'll be doing the best work of my life at that point in my life, right? It's going to continue to grow and get better.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. I'm totally with you and I totally understand what you're saying.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Family is a core value and a source of deep fulfillment for John. He has crafted an environment that encourages his family's participation in his work.
Dr. John Kois:
It sort of happens organically and in my situation, it happened organically. My one son is the CEO of the center, has an MBA from the University of Washington and his twin brother not identical twin is also the dentist prosthodontist with a fellowship in implantology. My wife is involved in accounts payable and my daughter-in-laws are both involved and so it is quite the family business.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
No nepotism here, right?
Dr. John Kois:
No. Well it's funny you mentioned that. I would say every part of the family piece, their contributions are based on the value of their contributions and not just because of the relationship. Otherwise, that creates lots of tension in the family business and I'm very fortunate and I don't have that problem.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Well I think the family, they also take some personal ownership. Right?
Dr. John Kois:
Absolutely.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It's like I'm just not punching the clock representing a company or an organization but this is my family here and I'm representing my family as well. So I think there's a pressure to kind of live up to that expectation as well.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. Don't get me wrong, I mean everybody understands when you work with family there's always tension. Family has a way of working that out and that's happened for me over the years. I would say you're right, the buy-in because it's family is the priceless piece. I think at the end of the day it's been a tremendous source of joy and satisfaction as a family to be able to do that, that we cherish and never take for granted.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. I'm just so blessed to have the opportunity to work with my niece and nephew and my son-in-law, daughter-in-law at CariFree. It's been really a wonderful thing for me to be able to spend more time with them and just share my vision of things as well as watching them grow and be a part of that business.
Dr. John Kois:
When you go back through the years and you think about it, people talk about family first and you pretty much have to do that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
You do have to make sacrifices and make some decisions that maybe you might have made differently but all of those decisions I've never regretted. I think what's helped make the business successful is, every member of my family could have had their own path in their own chosen career and do it on their own but they chose to do this. We chose to do this together, which I think has helped because the commitment level is there 'cause nobody's here because they have to be.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. You have your grandchildren close.
Dr. John Kois:
Yes, I'm really fortunate.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, right? So you have a relationship with your grandchildren which I think is so important. I was raised on a farm and my grandparents lived on the farm next door and so I had a tremendous relationship with my grandparents, right? Both sets. The role of mentorship, my grandfather's one of my earliest mentors right? Mentors play such an important role in young people's lives and creating their values and in direction in their lives and I think that gets kind of undervalued today.
Dr. John Kois:
I do value my time with my grandchildren, I would say I am fortunate that geographically we're all close. But even if we weren't, I think what's important is at least the time you do spend with your family. A psychologist, I remember when I was traveling a lot gave me a really good piece of advice. We were chatting in fact in the back of a lecture room one time and I was feeling kind of guilty being away from home and my children were in sporting events or other things and I would miss maybe what I would think would be significant moments in their life. She said to me, "One of the things as professionals, you realize that's just going to happen. You can't make yourself available for everything." But she said, "What children depend on most is not necessarily that you were there to witness the event but you cared enough to ask them about what happened."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
So we always videotaped the event and I'd watch it right away when I would get home and spend the time with my kids that way and that's how I always extend my time with my grandchildren, the same way. So it's to be involved and really make that level of connection that made so much of a difference.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And they know that you care.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah, they do.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
But I look back on my life from here and it seems like my children grew up so fast and I was quite involved in their lives and we have-
Dr. John Kois:
You know it's funny, it's not only that they grow up so fast. With all the knowledge we have today, I don't know how my kids survived my parenting because I don't feel like I did all the things I was supposed to do.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I think you feel a little insufficient as a dad, right? I mean, I felt some of that inadequacy of like did I do a good enough job? Did I spend enough... I worry about that now, did I spend enough time with you? Did I make sure that you knew how important you were to me? My children tell me yes that, they do.
Dr. John Kois:
You have to be a little lucky too.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. But I just look back and I think... I was so focused on career and being the provider and doing all that that while I was involved in their life, it just seems like it went by so fast in the rearview mirror. Right? So I'm really focused on, I don't want to have that same experience with my grandchildren. Now it's like instead of looking more forward it's like I want to freeze time right now.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah, slow it down.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I want to slow it down so that I can spend more time with them and really enjoy that part of their life because now I know how short that is. From the time they're six to 18, it's like 12 short years and they grow up in those 12 years. Right? So anyway, I was thinking about that the other day. It was kind of ironic because I was always looking ahead, looking forward to things when I was younger and now I'm kind of like I just want to slow it down.
Dr. John Kois:
Right. Be in the moment.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
In the moment and unfortunately it seems like the clock is going faster instead, right?
Dr. John Kois:
It seems that way.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. I mean, that's interesting. Old people always told you that and I always thought yeah, whatever.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. We should have grandchildren first and then we'll get it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That actually would be a lot more fun.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Because do you worry about whether or not you're being the best granddad or not? It's like I don't worry about it, I just play with them. We just have fun and play with them.
Dr. John Kois:
No, it's not in my vocabulary.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's funny you say that. One of my grandsons was like, "Grandpa, can we do this?" I said, "Okay. So the first thing you have to know is it doesn't matter what the question is, the answer is yes."
Dr. John Kois:
I like that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Forward-thinking is only possible when we remain open to new ideas and practices, original thought requires courage to stand apart. Those who spot opportunities to improve the systems around them often walk a thin line, celebrated as forward thinkers or condemned as heretics. To remain credible John temper's open thought with science.
Dr. John Kois:
What I tried to do at the center to be fair and respectful, is I preferred to be a game changer rather than an expert regurgitator and I would say to move that needle requires quite a bit of responsibility to take the arrows. But I feel that's what you meant when I talked about if you show me the data I'll change or prove me wrong, is I feel more comfortable with the data now and more secure on those platforms to be able to do that. People get very uncomfortable with skepticism when you're learning something new and you know that shouldn't be the part that really worries people. I feel when I listen to somebody even when what they're saying is very different, my first inclination is why could that be right?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
I embrace the skepticism and I continue to see if it creates some kind of logic that moves me to what people call the second level of being quizzical.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I was going to say curiosity.
Dr. John Kois:
Curiosity.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Is the key there, right?
Dr. John Kois:
Is the key and if you're starting to now ask questions that seem to be answered in what makes sense or the data makes sense. We move to the third level of learning which is called agreement and now you can sort of embrace what might be new but nothing changes until you get to the fourth level which is called commitment. You have to have ownership to what that is, whether it's whatever thing you do in life. Whether it's controlling your health or being on some fitness program or whatever you do. It takes a level of discipline to move that needle and those pieces are what creates the difference between it being just education that stays on the table and nothing happens with actually doing something in your life and-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right, making it life changing.
Dr. John Kois:
That's what I feel is what we're trying to do at the center and we don't always hit the mark but it's not just about knowing better, it's doing better. If you don't know better, you can't do better and if you know better and you don't do better you feel worse about yourself.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, absolutely. But being the first out there and taking the arrows in the back that takes some courage.
Dr. John Kois:
I felt comfortable with it, I felt that it wasn't just a wild hair brain thing. That it had some substance to it, I'm willing to take that on [inaudible 00:45:14].
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Analyzing and looking at it and going through those four stages and then you felt more comfortable.
Dr. John Kois:
That's how you change.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, for sure. One of the things I appreciate about you John, is you're a truth seeker. You're a truth teller and you're a truth seeker. One of my favorite quotes of you is, "In God we trust, everybody else show me your science."
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. Certainly when I'm on the podium, I feel like I have a responsibility and I may not always be out there on the bleeding edge. But I've never really felt like I had to retract any one of my significant recommendations and I feel responsible that I don't want to derail anybody's potential career either.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
So I make my comments carefully and hopefully they're weighed on credible evidence.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
So obviously we don't get derailed by conflict of interest or wherever that is because you know... Look, there are always people with good intentions trying to provide recommendations. I'm just trying to make sure I don't have to retract them and give people recommendations that really make a difference and I've been very fortunate in this time I've spent for that due diligence has really paid off.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Well, you spent a lot of time reviewing the scientific literature.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah, I read 28 journals a month.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Right? You are a reader.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. Well, I don't read every article cover to cover but I pick the more scientific ones that go into our curriculum here. We've built a curriculum for practicing dentists and all the courses, they're not fragmented. They all tie into one another and it's a graduate program more than anything else.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. So they get an opportunity to be exposed to the science that carries the most value to what you're trying to teach.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. I think it's also I feel really comfortable giving credit where the credit is due.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. John Kois:
I believe in... Obviously the buzzword is evidence-based not eminence-based science, which we've done in the past. But that's because we had nothing else and now we're better than that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. The other thing I appreciate too John on that same topic, you're always like here's my recommendation and based on this science. If you think I'm wrong, show me where I'm wrong and show me your science-
Dr. John Kois:
If I'll change.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right? I'll change, right? If there's better science out there that I'm not aware of I want to know.
Dr. John Kois:
Yeah. That comes to... I also believe none of us are smarter than all of us. So I'm constantly trying to use the center as an opportunity, also as a funnel to learn from other people. I say when people come, people learn from me the front of the room but I learn from you within the room and I learn from our mentors that also come and help support the center. So I'm in a fortunate position to be in that opportunity to have many channels of not only experiences but learning opportunities.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. A lot of knowledge.
Dr. John Kois:
A lot of knowledge.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Flowing both directions. Yeah. John, one of the things to that I appreciate about you is you're one of the first and almost only educators that share their failures. Because we're so used to seeing all these success cases and how beautiful they are and look at me like I did this, I'm really awesome and I'm an incredible restorative dentist or whatever. Then John gets up and shows, well take a look at this case it failed. Looking back here's what failed, why it failed and how I might have prevented that or done it differently so that we would've had a better outcome. John, as a practicing dentist sitting in the audience. We don't learn anything when it's a successful case, right? The times I learned something is when it failed and then I have to go back.
Dr. John Kois:
Part of the mentality when I finished all my training was if something went wrong, it's what did I do wrong? So it was the blame game piece and it created a sense of embarrassment and it's what I believe harbors a lot of dysfunction in many of us and it creates a lot of discontent or maybe a need for what I call people being more of an imposter than what's the reality of practice. When I began to realize maybe the failures were not because of what I did, it was my lack of understanding or my inadequate knowledge or somewhere where I could fix it. So my point to people is, what if I can improve even more now with my education than what I can just do in my performance level? Because that will only take you so far, because even if you could perform something well but inappropriately or incorrectly you're not going to be successful. So I use the failures as a way of demonstrating my evolution in my learning experience and that's what I'm trying to help people with.
That I actually believe that a lot of the problems are not stemming from your inability but it's from your understanding.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. When we look at failures and then it's like we always want to internalize that. It's like I failed but looking at it from the standpoint and that something in the system failed and what role did I play in that and how can I improve that for the next time?
Dr. John Kois:
For sure, I mean if everybody could be a superstar for our product. I mean we'd all buy Serena Williams tennis racket and go play tennis, I mean it's not going to happen.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So what kind of gets you excited today in the here and now?
Dr. John Kois:
I would say seeing what the future brings and how we can shape where we're headed in the future. 'Cause I do feel that we're making an impact in creating maybe a more efficient and better direction as we proceed to the future and that would be by making less mistakes as we move forward. That would be one thing and I get really excited by doing that in a more direct way for people and helping them and the rest for me is family. So being able to spend time with my family and having quality time with my family and my grandchildren, etc. That's obviously a part of my family but that's where I get my most joy.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
John is a shining example of how education, curiosity and implementation can lead to innovation and industry disruption. He has found his ikigai and shared it with the world. To master the art of living he embodies his values and tries to be fully present. Thank you so much to John Kois at the Kois Center for helping grow our community of extraordinary minds and thank you for coming on this journey with me today. Around here we aim to inspire and create connections, we can't do it without you. If this conversation moved you, made you smile or scratched that little itch of curiosity today please share it with the extraordinary people in your life and if you do one thing today let it be extraordinary.