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The Harvester Podcast is brought to you by the Florida School of Preaching. Listen weekly to take a dive into biblical topics and thoughtful studies on things that matter to our eternal souls.
Welcome to the Harvester podcast, season two, episode 10.
And we're going to continue our discussion on abortion.
We ended last episode kind of hastily and there was a lot left on the table.
So we are having part two of our discussion on abortion, a continuation of that.
I am Brian Kenyon and with me are.
Steven Ford.
Before Santa Maceris.
And we're glad that you have joined us for this very important discussion.
Now, when we think about abortion and why it is wrong, it's because, and we left off with
this last episode, there is a sanctity of human life that humans are created in the image
and likeness of God, Genesis 1, 26 and 27.
So that fact alone tells us that human life is of utmost importance.
And also,
you put in there the sovereignty of God, that only God has a right to kill and make alive.
Deuteronomy 32 verse 39, Now see that I, even I am He, and there is no God besides Me, and
I kill and I make alive, I wound and I heal, nor is there any who can deliver from My
hand.
And so God has all authority
in life and death, and so we can only act by His authority.
And of course, human life is sacred simply because it's made in the image and likeness of
God.
Yeah, that doesn't start at birth.
Like you were saying with Psalm 139, which is referenced earlier, there's a lot in there
about even before you're fully developed, God recognizing you.
Absolutely, that's one of my favorite kind of, I guess you say, go-to verses.
Because the question, guess the argument hinges on what is a human life and when does it
become a human life.
know, in Psalm 139 verses 15 and 16 in particular, the psalmist says, My substance was not
hid from thee.
That demonstrates that God was able to see even into the mom's womb.
He says, When I was made in secret and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth,
thine eyes did see my substance.
yet being unperfect.
And in that book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as
yet there was none of them.
So God saw his days, God saw his substance, he saw all of it, even as a non-fully
developed baby in the womb.
And so if you ask the question, well, what is a human life, of course, you go back to
Genesis chapter one.
this is a being that's made in a soul, a being that's made in the image of God.
Well, when does it become that?
It becomes that before it can say, you know, mama and daddy, is that before, it's that in
its developmental stages in the womb.
And so these passages kind of in concert demonstrate that the life has to have value the
moment it's created and not at any point later.
Yeah, that's a good point.
You know, the image of God isn't like, you know, just boiled down to just our intelligence
or our whatever, you know, I think some people think that you've got to be, you know, so
smart or so capable like we've been talking about.
And that's just not the case.
That's inherent to human nature across the board.
Is that being made in the image of God, including at the youngest age of a human, which
the way God designed it at our youngest age?
We're in utero.
And just not too long ago a member of the church, was a member of the church and she put
on ah one of her Facebook things and showed a picture of a nine-week-old baby in the womb
and all it was was just a bunch of clouds.
You couldn't see anything.
And she was trying to justify that it's okay, that's not a really human life in there.
Well, I kind of knew this person so I went on Google and got me a picture of a...
nine week old baby, arms and the head and rows and all that.
And I put it on their responded back.
Well, no, that's why would you put that on there when this is what it looks like?
I don't think that convinced her, but, it's just goes to show the point that sometimes,
and, uh, if you can't see it, the outside out of mind.
And so abortion is kind of like, no one can see me do this, I can't see the baby.
And so it must, must not be a human.
But we have this group in Lakeland, Options for Women, and the director there was telling
us one time that the single most, there's two things that talk that, well, there's two
things that happen that a woman decides not to have an abortion that was going to have an
abortion.
The number one thing is when they can see that sonogram and they can see that baby and
feel and see the heartbeat and all that.
And then number two, if the dad
the father actually wants to have the child.
That goes a long way into them keeping the child.
But before we uh shift gears here on other parts or other topics in abortion, we did want
to mention that there is something that I've always known of them as tubular pregnancies.
And that is where the fetus uh or they actually the sperm and the egg, the zygote embed in
the fallopian tube.
And I've known people personally that have had this happen.
And so if that baby is allowed to develop there, it will kill both the baby and the mother
because the fallopian tubes are not made for that.
And so it'll burst that and cause all kinds of internal bleeding to the mother.
And then of course, the baby as a result of not being able to implant in the right place
will also die.
And so they do have surgeries for that.
and this kind of falls under the category the philosophical it's called the law of double
effect whereas the intent is not to take the baby's the intent is to save the mother's
life and that's a true situation and it does happen and i used to think the doctors would
try to take the the baby from the fallopian tube and implant them in the uterus where they
belong but i talked to some some professionals about them they said they don't do that
because they know it's not gonna work
but even those would fall into and force gave us some statistics last episode they talked
about you know how many abortions are because they actually threaten mothers life and if
you combine all the reasons other than just elective cuz i want to have abortions is like
less than one percent all those combined and so there's a very rare occasion but it does
happen but that's not the same thing is an induced abortion determinate a pregnancy
And so we just want to make that clear here.
And, you know, we're three guys talking about this here.
So we don't know.
I mean, I could never imagine, though I've known people, I can never imagine how a woman
feels through a miscarriage, how a woman feels if she's raped and gets pregnant, how a
woman feels when she, you know, has an abortion.
And so I can't really know that.
can't empathize, though I can sympathize.
But again, you know, God's Word.
tells us and so i don't have to experience that to know the morality of it just based on
god's word and so we're not i'm not trying to say you know that this not real feelings is
not real issues involved with that but we're just saying here's what god's word teaches
about
I'm glad you made that point.
It can come off sometimes as though uh if you do not belong to a particular demographic
that you may be speaking out of turn.
I have two young daughters and I would be beyond livid if they were in any way trampled
upon in any kind of way.
But that's still my feelings don't trump what God says.
And I know, I know I, you know, so I would never sit and tell us, oh, you wouldn't be
angry, you shouldn't be angry, you know.
Emotions are just, uh it's just a response to an outside stimulus.
What happens makes us either happy or sad or angry or what have you.
But those emotions don't get to tell us what to do.
I think, this is not a reason for me, somebody said that emotions are a good, what is it,
a good thermometer, but not a good thermometer?
A bad compass, did you say that?
Well, I'll start with the one who you got it from.
So what is it saying again?
Feelings make a good thermometer, but a horrible compass Yeah, so they can tell you the
temperature of the room, right?
They're telling you how you feel how you're responding to things But they can't be what
guides you how you make your decisions, Yeah, that's a good point and and I just wanted to
piggyback off of what Brian mentioned with because I kind of blew my mind what you said
that the gentleman who works at the the options for women place, you know, one of those
factors being
the father who wants to keep the baby.
And I think so much in these conversations, we talk about the women who are getting the
abortions, know, and rightfully so, but I think the other side of this equation too, is
the men who have completely in every way, in many of these situations, failed to um take
care of their responsibilities as men, you know, and.
We've got communities full of young men who think they're man enough to get a girl
pregnant, but not man enough to really be responsible for the consequences of their
actions, right?
And to stick with that girl and to try to, even if you're young, to try to actually be the
man God's calling you to be to take care of that child and take care of that mother.
You know, I just think how many of these women who go in there for those abortions who
feel like
their world will fall apart, they can't afford it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Where are the men in those situations?
We know they didn't get pregnant by themselves.
So the failure isn't just on the women's part.
It's larger than that.
we need, hopefully, we're helping young men and training young men who, when you're
involved, to obviously not have sex outside of marriage, but then even beyond that.
to take responsibility.
And I think that's a larger cultural issue.
We're talking about cultural issues.
it's not just women who do it.
Men do it too.
We're just completely abandon the responsibilities that we have.
And it's convenient for the men too.
Yeah, go get the abortion.
I don't want to have to deal with this.
I don't want to have to take care of the kid.
And so men definitely have a part to play in this as well, a big part to play in this.
Yes.
Just for the record, the director is a woman of the O.
mother.
yeah, That's why God has placed sexual relations, which are a blessing from God, but he's
placed them in the relationship where there already is responsibility, care.
there's a mutual edification, a mutual concern for each other within the confines of the
marriage because if you support the person, you love the person, you're committed to the
person, bringing the baby in is going to help to enhance the relationship overall.
But if you don't have love, commitment, care, concern, all those deals, then what do you
care?
You just want the unfettered ability to go out and do what you want to do in a sexual way.
That's one of the things that, know, sex isn't a bad thing.
know, it should never be taught as such.
ah It's a wonderful thing that God has, you ordained, but it belongs only in the marital
relationship.
and concert and sex without consequences and sex without responsibility Absolutely isn't
what God designed and I think that's kind of where we go off base We talked about some of
the modern lies, you know and I think that that's kind of The travesty before the travesty
if you will when it comes to abortion, know abortions a travesty but the first travesty is
that there's a lot of women who Because of our because of their choices and because of the
choices of men aren't in
a safe, supportive environment having children, which is the way it should be, you know?
So there's definitely, you know, responsibilities on both sides of the table, but still
none of those things justify the ending of that life.
It would have been nice if we could have had a cultural conversation first about the
irresponsibility of sexual relations just in our country.
What a world, really.
And that leading up to, and perhaps that may be something we can talk about at another
point, but one leads to the other.
The unfortunate issue that it is because you have this, you know, just uncontrolled,
unregulated sexual sort of a thing happening in our culture where people have zero
responsibility to the other person.
Sometimes you even have to know the person.
You just engage in this relationship.
that you know has consequences.
But you do it anyway and then think, well, I'll just go to the clinic and they'll sweep
away my consequence from me.
And that's where you have that number, 95.5 % of the abortions are being elective and not
medical.
Yeah, And I think one of the things in the abortion debate that doesn't get talked about
is how, you know, abusers and men who are, you know, not doing what they're supposed to do
benefit from abortion.
Because it's not just the woman who's escaping responsibility, men are too, you know?
And I remember there was this meme that went viral where, you know, during the whole Roe
v.
Wade getting struck down by the Supreme Court and all that stuff.
um
You know, there was this woman who was very serious and she was like, if we can't have
abortions, then men should have to stay and help raise the kids.
And people were sharing it like, yeah, like that is the way it should go.
Like that's the way God designed it.
You know what I mean?
Like it is supposed to be that, that group, that, that joint effort.
But you know, this is all downstream of the sexual revolution stuff and all those other
things we talked about where it's all kind of part of the same package.
Yeah.
and when we think about the hurt that it does to the mothers later on that have abortions
and it's just a tragic, tragic thing altogether.
I could wish that were explored a little bit more too.
Abortion is not the end and it is not consequence free.
know, the sex isn't consequence free but the abortion is not either.
There is a lot of emotional scarring that comes from uh having an abortion.
I could wish that people would talk about that.
as much or in those conversations with abortion, people tell you, you can have an
abortion, you don't have to deal with this or that and the other, but they wouldn't
introduce the fact, hey, this is probably gonna scar you for the rest of your life.
This is gonna have an emotional, psychological effect on you that you won't be able to
just cure right away.
I think that might help people to kind of really think about what I'm doing.
I think that would at least give a little bit more of a weighty response to the person to
consider.
Yeah, that's great point.
I've seen, I've known people and I've seen a lot of things out there about women just
having to live with that regret, you know, and ah that's not mentioned at all, you know,
because even women who think there's nothing wrong with abortion, it's one thing to think
about it in an abstract way.
But then when you actually go through with it and do it and you have to think about what
would that child have been.
How would they have been like?
How would my life have been different or more fulfilling or whatever?
You know, and you, mean that, that stays with some people for, for the rest of their
lives, as you mentioned.
And, you know, I think this would be a good time probably to say like the abortion is
immoral and it's wrong.
It's not, you know, the unforgivable sin that, that you can't repent of and be forgiven
of, but you do need to repent of it.
And I think that's kind of a flash point.
You know, people say there's nothing wrong with it, but
It is immoral and needs to be repented of, but God is willing to forgive you.
Obviously you can't bring life back after it's been taken, but you can still repent and be
forgiven.
Yeah, and that's something that needs to be looked at because, you know, abortion, which
it is, you know, if it is the case that the baby inside the womb is a human, and if it is
case that human is intentionally taken out, then that is murder.
But as Forrest just said, murder can be forgiven and has been forgiven and will be
forgiven.
Of course, we have the Apostle Paul who murdered Christians, but yet he obeyed the gospel.
Remember in First Timothy chapter 1 he talked about who was before a blasphemer and
injurious and violent, insolent man.
And he does talk about he killed Christians, but yet he could be forgiven.
He did that intentionally.
He thought he was doing God's service.
He didn't see anything wrong with that.
But yet it was still sin, and so he could be forgiven.
But yes, but repentance must take place in order for forgiveness to come.
That's one of the blessings of being in Christ.
It helps you to realize the value of life.
And if in fact you have gone and done something in your life, no matter what it is,
abortion or otherwise, there is the beauty of forgiveness to be found in Jesus.
We know of a young lady who had an abortion when she was young, 18 or 19 years old, and
she's now a member of the church, married, having, I think they have two kids.
But she has mentioned that that still bothers her that what she did though.
She knows that she's forgiven But that doesn't change the fact that the baby would be this
many years old now She compares it with the other children, you know Well, he'd be or she
would be the older sibling and they'd be doing this in life, you know Perhaps they'd be
doing that life.
So that's still there Even though you know, you're forgiven like Paul did but at every
turn he always recounted man I was a terrible guy.
I did a lot of good terrible things, but I'm forgiven
But I still remember I did those things.
That doesn't go away.
God can choose to forget.
We can't choose to forget those things.
absolutely.
And I think that's part of why we have conversations like this is because if we can reach
like that young lady who's 18 and 19 and made that decision, if we can reach her with the
facts and the things that, you know, Planned Parenthood and the pro-abortion side is never
going to talk about, if she can hear these things and consider these things and see what
God says about these things before she makes that decision, then not only is a life saved,
but a life full of regret is prevented.
you know, and that's obviously part of our goal, part of our mission.
And I think it too, it highlights Christians who, know, anytime Christians say that
something is sinful, isn't sinful, not only are we doing the world a disservice because we
can't call them out to repentance and to the gospel, but also we're doing our brothers and
sisters a disservice because there might be real sins that brothers and sisters need to
repent of.
that we're kind of swept up in the cultural current saying they're not really sinful.
And we're sitting next to a brother, sister in Christ who needs to repent and they're not
being encouraged to do so because we don't want to ruffle any feathers or anything like
that.
And obviously that's not something that we should have.
Yes, and the passage I was thinking about before, I'll just read it here.
Paul says in 1 Timothy 1 verse 12, I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me
because he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a
blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man, but I obtained mercy because I did it
ignorantly in unbelief.
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love.
which are in Christ Jesus.
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the
world to save sinners of whom I am chief.
And so again, Paul lists some of the things that he was guilty of and uh he could still be
forgiven.
And it's like the lower we are, the more, you know, the rock, when we reach rock bottom,
the more awesome it seems that God's grace is, that God's salvation is.
The lower we're down, the higher we lift when we're saved.
so Paul never could forget that.
those that, and you know, he did mention of whom I am chief.
ah But verse 16, however, for this reason, I obtained mercy that in me first, Jesus Christ
might show all long suffering as a pattern to those who are going to believe on him for
everlasting life.
And so it's interesting the word chief here and in verse, at end of verse 15,
of whom I am chief.
And then the word first in verse 16 are the same Greek word.
And some of the translations translate them the same.
But notice Paul is just as first and foremost of a sinner he thought he was.
Jesus used him as the first and foremost example of long suffering as a pattern to those
who are going to believe on him through everlasting life.
So Paul is a pattern for all people.
who are in sin, that oh God's forgiveness is there.
If God can forgive Paul, He can sure enough forgive anybody.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's a great point.
um And I think what we're leading to now is just the fact that there is, for those who
have done it, we're hoping to stave off any abortions in the future by having this kind of
a conversation, but what about those who've had them in the past and may feel that they've
done the worst thing ever?
As we mentioned, Paul, I love that passage you cited or read for us there, Brian, because
Paul says, I'm a pattern, so if he could forgive.
Paul, then any person can be forgiven.
And you can still be brand new.
I'm thinking about 2 Corinthians 5 17, therefore if any man be in Christ, he's a new
creature.
Old things are passed away, behold all things are new, or become new rather.
And there's a hymn, this is not inspired, but there's a stanza in a song that I really
love that's called Bring Christ Your Broken Life.
It's one of my favorite songs to sing, it's kind of a slow song, but that first stanza
says, bring Christ your broken life.
so marred by sin, he will create anew, make whole again, your empty wasted years he will
restore and your iniquities remember no more.
So for those who have gone to perhaps have an abortion or considered abortion or know
someone that has, there is forgiveness to be found in Jesus.
Jesus, one of his closest friends, denied him multiple times and he went to Jesus and he
found forgiveness and he was able to go on and do wonderful things.
So for those who may be out there thinking that
I've done something that's terrible, that's horrible.
I've committed this sin.
Sin is terrible and it is horrible and it did cause Jesus to go to the cross.
But that going to the cross may wait for forgiveness.
So if you are in that boat, you can find forgiveness, you can find purpose, meaning and
value in life uh going forward if you would just take hold of that forgiveness that Jesus
offered to you.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's part of being, know, because sometimes that phrase pro-life is thrown
around.
You know, not just pro the baby in the womb's life, but also pro that mother's life.
Not just life now, but life eternal.
You know, I mean, all that whole package, know, as Christians, we're concerned about
everybody involved in that situation, you know.
And sometimes because of our cultural moment, it feels like
You know, you're yelling against the wind or whatever.
I know, especially, you know, lot of people I went to school with, a lot of people my age.
I mean, abortion is like even like men, abortion is like a number one topic, you know, for
politics and stuff like that.
And just because of, you know, some of the things going on in the culture.
But I think that that's kind of the stand we have to make, but also have that compassion
and that true love, not just this is the right thing.
So I'm for it, but.
have the whole picture in mind, you know.
Absolutely, that's a great kind of a...
I don't want to call it a final thought because we're going to have maybe a couple more
minutes, but just like the crescendo of the thought that no matter how dark the sin, there
can be forgiveness.
Oh yeah.
If, let's also, I want to make sure that I'm clear because I don't want to get into this.
If we repent, then we can be forgiven of any sin.
1 John 1, 79 is one of my favorite passages because it's all sin can be forgiven.
There's no caveat.
If you repent, God will forgive.
And that is one of just
the most beautiful parts of the good news message that we have.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think, you part of and that's something that needs to be said, like when we're
talking about these moral issues, you know, you don't you don't go to heaven by not being
a homosexual or you don't just like just like doing the moral things isn't enough, right?
Because we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
So, um yes, we want to live in a moral, more moral society.
We want to impact culture, for betterment, for morality, but not detached from
the gospel right and and actually what saves people which is uh...
submission to jesus christ obedience to the gospel be washing his blood et cetera et
cetera uh...
but still we should want to end things like the ending of child children's lives we want
to help people who are in that darkness of whether it's abortion or homosexuality or
whatever it is but those things in themselves avoiding those things in themselves can't
save a person
We're lost because of sin, whether we've heard the gospel or not, whether we know of Jesus
or not, we're lost because of sin.
But the only thing that can take it with sin away is the blood of Jesus, and the only way
to contact the blood of Jesus is through the gospel, obeying the gospel, which culminates
in obedience or in...
baptism to wash away our sins and then we're added to the church and then we rise to walk
a newness of life for them that's when we were made a new creation as Stephen read in 2nd
Corinthians 5 17 and so if you know there any of our listeners who are have sinned to
abortion having abortions or whatever there is an opportunity to repent and we're here to
help if you're in the Lakeland Florida area if not
contact us we can put you in contact with with people in your area they can help you with
that and we just want your soul to be saved and spend eternity with god but we thank you
so much for listening as any other thoughts we need to add to this
No, well I would say no, yeah, just the fact that there may also be some out there that
may need some counseling and therapy.
seeking out actual therapy is also good to be able to work through some issues, but
ultimately we want to help people find Christ and find the way out.
But therapy is also ah something I think that's good for people who are in this kind boat.
Yeah, and I would say too piggybacking on that before we outro, you know, the, um, I think
too, the church has an awesome opportunity for those young girls who feel like they don't
have anybody and contemplating abortion, you know, churches have a wonderful opportunity
to be that support system and to be that loving family.
Even Lori and I, you know, we obviously had children in wedlock and are surrounded by
family, but we acknowledge even in our situation.
having kids would be way harder without our church family and they help immeasurably just
like in every way you can imagine right and um...
i wish every person who's having a child could experience that and i think that that's the
way you know god designed us yet i have children within a marriage uh...
but also in that broader community of god's people you know and uh
And if, you know, there's a young girl out there, or even an older girl out there, who
feels like she doesn't have anybody, doesn't know where to turn, and is contemplating, you
know, terminating a pregnancy, there's definitely, you know, go to the Church of Christ
near you, and there's definitely a group of people who you can explain your situation to,
and they will bend over backwards to help you.
Yes, and that's just the blessings of a spiritual family which helps in the physical
aspects as well.
So we appreciate your listening, tuning into this podcast, and we invite you for our next
episode as we discuss more of these social issues.