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Tap to send me your reflections ♡ My guest today is psychotherapist, writer, international trainer, and world expert in imagery based therapies, Dr Dina Glouberman. The co-founder/director (since 1979) of Skyros Holistic Holidays, Dina is also the founder/director of the Aurora Centre in Southern Italy; training therapists, counsellors, and consultants in ImageWork. This is a frank and generous exploration of what led Dina to develop her pioneering ImageWork therapy - touching on painfu...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
My guest today is psychotherapist, writer, international trainer, and world expert in imagery based therapies, Dr Dina Glouberman.
The co-founder/director (since 1979) of Skyros Holistic Holidays, Dina is also the founder/director of the Aurora Centre in Southern Italy; training therapists, counsellors, and consultants in ImageWork.
This is a frank and generous exploration of what led Dina to develop her pioneering ImageWork therapy - touching on painful stories from her past and revealing the transformation that can come from purposeful exploration of imagery and visualisation.
Dina began her work as a psychotherapist in the early 1960s and continues to share her life-long learnings with others through her books, courses and the diploma in ImageWork - first run this year (2023).
At the end of our conversation, Dina says: “We’re all in this together”.
To me that feels like the most fitting phrase; it sums up the deep connection Dina offers those who work with her. And it speaks to our universal connection - with others and with our Self.
I am so honoured to be sharing this conversation with you today. Dina is one of my own teachers and I have seen first hand the beneficial power of ImageWork, both with my own clients and through my own experience.
If you’re curious to find out more, see Dina’s website - and if you’re a practitioner and want to learn how to use ImageWork with your clients, take a look at the Diploma course running in 2024. I have loved my own process of deepening my knowledge.
*****
CONNECT WITH DINA
https://www.dinaglouberman.com/
BOOKS BY DINA
Life Choices, Life Changes
The Joy of Burnout
You Are What You Imagine
Into the Woods and Out Again
ImageWork - a guide for practitioners and counsellors
*****
EXPERIENCE ImageWork
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A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Unknown: And then to go deeper
and to realise I'm not what I
do, I'm something else and I'm
going to find out what that is.
You know, so the Bernanke gives
them not just permission, but
there's almost a requirement
unless they, some people just
want to get better and go back.
But the ones that take it
seriously, really have to go
deeper to find out where their
true joy is, and, and not what
they do. You know, because what
do you do? Well, that depends.
Welcome to the podcast. That's
all about deepening our self
awareness with profound self
compassion. I'm Henny, I write
coach and speak about how
exploring our inner world can
transform how we experience our
outer world. All founded on a
bedrock of self love. Settle in
and listen and see where the
episode takes you.
My guest today is
psychotherapist writer,
international trainer, and world
expert in imagery based
therapies. Dr. Dena gloop has
been the co founder and director
since 1979. So it's been running
for over 40 years of Skaros
holistic holidays. Dina is also
the founder director of the
aurora Centre in southern Italy,
where she trained therapists,
counsellors and consultants in
image work. This conversation
today is a frank and generous
exploration of what led Deena to
develop her pioneering image
work therapy, touching on
painful stories from her past
and revealing the transformation
that can come from purposeful
exploration of imagery and
visualisation. At the end of our
conversation, Dina says, We're
all in this together. To me,
that feels like the most fitting
phrase, it sums up the deep
connection. Dena offers those
who work with her. And it speaks
to our universal connection with
others and with ourself. I'm so
honoured to be sharing this
conversation with you. Dina is
one of my own teachers, as
you'll hear in the conversation.
And I have found that the
application of image work is
absolutely transformational in
the work that I do with my own
clients, and in the way that I
have experienced image work
personally, I can't wait to
share this conversation with
you. It is wide and deep, just
like the world of the
imagination.
So Dina, welcome.
Thank you, honey. It's always
lovely to talk to you.
Yeah, same. It's really do you
know what, it's interesting
before? Before I opened up the
call, and, and I was thinking
about this conversation, I
realised I felt a bit nervous.
And I was reflecting on like,
Well, why is that? And then I
came to the conclusions because
it's important. This
conversation feels valuable. And
it feels important. And so
anything that's got kind of
resonance brings any emotion
with it for me. So I just wanted
to share that really.
Thank you. It does feel
important when it's important to
share it with you, because I
think you're kind of present on
a deep level.
Yeah, well,
takes one to know one, I'd say.
Yeah, it's a tough place to be,
but we're doing it.
Yeah. So in the intro, I shared
a very brief bit about you and
the work that you do and the
fact that you're a
psychotherapist and you founded
scare us and you're also an
author. And I also shared that I
am currently studying with you,
although that our programmes
obviously due to end really
soon. So this kind of the timing
of this feels really good as
well for me that it's like it's
almost like a sort of point of
closure in in that part of our
connection with each other,
although hopefully it'll go on
much longer. But I have, the
whole time we've been working
together, I've been really,
really mindful of the role that
image work plays, in enabling
people to deepen that self
awareness that they have of
what's important for them,
what's driving them, the belief
systems that they have, etc.
And, as I've said to you, before
we began, I am really fascinated
in the role that self compassion
also plays in that process of
gaining self awareness. And I
suppose my sort of first
question for you is, does does
that feel true for you, as well
just, you know, is self
compassion, something that that
has kind of featured in the work
that you do? Or the stuff that
you've experienced in your life?
Has it been like a conscious
thing? Because it feels very
present for me? When I'm with
you, that compassion is part of
it?
Yeah, it's a really interesting
question. So I'll just tell you,
my first thought is that
when we speak the language of
the culture, we share the words
in the numbers. And so when
we're speaking, the that the
conventional wisdom of the
culture in some way, you know,
and, and that when we go deeper,
and we get imagery, we're
speaking, a universal but also
our personal language. And so
it's a way of being on our own
side, in a way, it's a way of
understanding the images that
are guiding our lives and
understanding them. When I say
personal and universal in a way,
it's saying that, which is just
personal to me, it's not just
personally, it's also got a
universal meaning. And so you
know, when I was younger, my big
thing was a search for truth.
And I just, you know, and
actually, when I came to
England, it was because, in
large part because I was looking
to find out what other other
cultures saw, saw a life because
I'd spent some time in Israel
and discovered that people
thought differently, and I
thought, well, if people think
differently in different
cultures, how do you know what's
true, you know, I was looking
for this sort of absolute truth,
which, of course, it's not out
there. And I think when I
started working with the imagery
I found that I was looking at, I
could look for my own personal
and universal truth. And that
carried me through what carried
me through my whole life, all
the difficulties, or the
visioning or the understanding,
or the insights, or the kind of
kind of wonderful moments, and
it's also been the thing that's
helped me to help other people
who are very relieved, again, to
find their own images instead of
there's a level at which when
you speak the language of the
culture, you're an observer of
your own experience, and maybe
there's some judgement about it.
And some of the negative words
we use come from the culture you
know, even though we don't
believe in them, we find
ourselves calling ourselves
names. I'm a failure. I've never
been any good, you know, all
this kind of thing. People say,
but when you kind of explore
your own imagery mean so for
example, I'm, I'm saying I'm a
failure. At can't create
anything now. But if I go
inside, and I say, I have an
image of a tree and Anna, and I
haven't got any fruits this
year, what's happened? How did I
stop having fruits suddenly, in
an experience that is, is is
making sense of things without
judgement. The clues, let's
say, I love that, that, that
that phrase, making sense of
things without judgement,
because so often I feel and just
sort of reflecting back on your
point around The culture carry,
it's almost like we sort of
carry the stories of the culture
or the environment that we grew
up in. And this idea of making
sense of things immediately
brings us up here into this the
kind of prefrontal cortex and
the logical mind and, you know,
rationality making sense. But
the way that you've just
described it is about sort of
making sense almost like with
the heart or with the, with the,
that deeper wisdom.
Absolutely. And with your Sage,
it's with your heart and soul
and your larger mind. Because we
have the control mind that goes,
Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but,
and which keeps us so called
rational. But when we sink into
another level, we still have a
mind, but it's a larger mind,
it's a more universal mind. And,
and the imagery is part of that.
And so the imagery, we use the
imagery first, to, to illuminate
what our, what I call our
everyday imagery is, what are
the images that are underlying
our experience, which may be
outdated or negative, or not
good for us. But first, we have
to find them. And then, you
know, so for example, if I get
an image of a bird that flies
flying in a really confused way,
and can't get its bearings. So
that is what's going on now. And
maybe it turns out that the
birds been hit by something. And
maybe in real life, it was hit
by someone saying something
awful to them as well. So I'm
identifying first, what's going
on. And then I start working
with it. And I say, okay, if I'm
evil were like, from above, what
would I say to that bird? I'd
say, Oh, you've just got badly
hurt, don't keep flying. Just
rest and see what happens. So so
we start to move through, the
place that we're at with an
images may be jarring, or
painful, or comes from Pat from
the past or from our childhood.
And we try to bring it into a
bigger picture with, as you say,
with compassion. It is really I
hadn't thought of it that way.
But it is all about compassion,
because we're saying it's okay
for you to be as you are. And
there is a way forward.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I
think it's also there's this,
this place of non judgement in
the, it's, it's okay, whatever
image comes up, you know, I
know, one of the sort of
instructions or invitations is
that is to accept the first
image that comes to mind, even
if we don't like it, or even if
we're confused by it, or, yeah,
think it's an unattractive
thing, whatever it might be, go
with it, and don't judge.
Absolutely. And you'll find that
that has gold in it, once we
bring it to the surface. And if
we start to work with it, in our
I remember, I once had an image
of being a tin can that was
kicked around, of course, I
wanted to get rid of it, but
because I kept it on, I started
to explore what was going on,
when I needed to do about it,
and so on. So it's so I almost
think the worse the image, the
more the golden it, you know,
that may be just, like, might
not be true.
Well, no judgement. I was
reminded, as you said, as we
were just talking about that of
the first time I took myself
through an image work exercise,
I think before we began working
on the diploma and and all and
the image I had or the kind of
sense of the image because
that's one of the things I'd
like to touch on at some point
actually is it's not necessarily
about images, you know,
pictures, it's about it can also
be that sort of sense of
something. And so I had this
sense of some salmon swimming in
a river. And I was just I was
completely nonplussed by these
salmon i and, and it was just
this short patch of river and,
and I found it a bit boring this
image, and I stayed with it
because that was the guidance.
And as I explored it more and
panned out, I realised I wasn't
the summer And I was actually
the river. And the salmon were
these thoughts endlessly
swimming upstream. And as the
river I was just holding them
stuck in place. And as they
panned out and became
consciousness looking down, I
realised, actually, as a river,
I had this beginning that
stretched all the way back, and
this ending that stretched all
the way forward. And I, I'd lost
sight of the fact that I had
this, this sort of length and
breadth and depth to me. And
that the salmon were just being
salmon, they were just doing
their thing. And when I let them
go, they would move on and other
someone would come, and that
would be fine. And so that place
of like trusting the process, I
think, is also a huge part of
the compassion, the non
judgement.
And I would say that you're also
the salmon, and salmon, you're
also the river and that we are
multi level. And that's really
wonderful.
And I was also the willow tree
that looked down on the river.
And each one has a quality that
we can recognise, because the
salmon is going somewhere, isn't
it? Going home? Yeah. And I
think you recognise that, that
about your experiences. So when
the river is flowing, endlessly,
and and that also you recognise,
and I don't know that the will
but there was something about
that, that's also an aspect of
you. And it's really wonderful
to know that we're not this
simple, boring, I'm like this,
I'm like that, but I'm all these
things, and more. And so we're,
you know, amazing to you.
This, there's something in that
about labels about and I think
this sort of touches on what you
were saying earlier, as well
about the culture, the language
of the culture, that we can end
up carrying all of these labels
about ourselves and, you know,
conversation that people often
have, it's like, you know, how
much they hate the question
about what do you do? Because
it's this narrow, constraining
label. And
America, one of the questions
those to ask at a party is what
do you make? Meaning? Do you
see so as a British girl?
What's really interesting, as
you know, I read a book about
burnout. And that is called the
joy of burnout, because it's
about people eventually finding
their joy. But the, the, the
really painful thing people talk
about, who have been committed
to what I say what I call that,
you know, they're like this with
the golden eggs, they have all
these achievements, and so on.
And the really painful thing is
going to a party and being
asked, What do you do? And at
the moment that they've burned
out, then not doing anything?
And it's a real moment of truth,
to feel the shame of that. I
can't answer that question. And
then to go deeper, and to
realise, I'm not what I do, I'm
something else. And I'm going to
find out what that is, you know,
so the burden that gives them
not just permission, but that's
almost a requirement, unless
they, some people just want to
get better and go back. But the
ones that take it seriously,
really have to go a little
deeper to find out where their
true joy is, and, and not what
they do, you know, because what
do you do? Well, that depends.
I have a very personal resonance
with that. So I think I hit my
first burnout. Not I think I
know, I hit my first burnout at
university. Wow. And ended up
dropping out for a year. Yeah, I
was an early starter, you know.
And, you know, learn a huge
amount from that experience. I
knew, I knew I needed to make a
change because I heard myself
crossing the road and I heard
the voice in my head say, if
only a car could hit me just
enough that I ended up in
hospital for a while, but I
don't die. And I got to the
other side of the road and I saw
something needs to change here.
Notice that this is what people
would say to me, that's what
people think. If only I could
end up in hospital with those
lovely white sheets and not have
to do anything and not I had to
go to work. But they couldn't
say no to work. They had to have
the accident, you know. So it's
good, you were listening.
But I did listen, and I dropped
out of university for a year.
But I did go back, which is even
more sort of surprising. And
then I hit another one, when I
was in my late 30s. And and then
the, the one that really when
the universe and my body worked
really together and decided this
time, she's got to bloody well
listen. So that was in 2016,
when I when I really almost
didn't make it through. So that
experience of birth,
you almost died.
So I had pneumonia three times
that year. And the third, the
third bout I ended up with
another virus was trying to shut
down all my internal organs. And
I had sepsis. Oh, yeah,
isolation suite, isolation
suite, still on my phone
answering work emails. So you
know, when you said at the
beginning, but actually I think
it was before we started
recording, and he said, Oh, you
know, you're you're a real go
getter or something, you you
know, you get things done. drug
of choice? Is the tell
me something you said there was
something you needed to learn?
And you're gonna, what? Do you
know what to do? Well, it was
through all of those.
Oh, a number of things, I think.
But
what was it that you were self
compassion? There was self
compassion. And that's why
you've made that your max work?
Yeah. And I think that is, I
think that's the sort of
beautiful thing that people do
this generous generosity, that
whatever they have suffered
from, they want to make sure
that other people, if they can
help it, if you can help it, you
don't want other people to
suffer from what you suffered
from and with life's work.
And, and so and so that feels
like a really beautiful question
to turn to you, actually.
Because having read your book,
into the woods and out again,
and read of some of the
experiences that you've had,
what politics sorry about that,
it's, it feels to me, like so
much of your life's work has
been inspired by the pain, the
beauty and the pain of what
you've experienced. And so
what's what what would you say
is the thing that you are
offering out into the world to
support others from having to
experience?
So as the one thing I mean, is
interesting question, because
there's the I suppose there's
the method, which is, I'm
teaching people how to use their
deepest imagery to understand
themselves to deal with it
difficulties to, to create their
life afresh, because that's what
I used to get me through really
difficult times. And what was
amazing was that I would just
make up a weird sort of image
thing, a house of truth, or seem
to me, I was making it up house
of truth, or pulling back the
energy like like spaghetti from
some, you know, strange things,
and then I would try them with
other people. And they worked.
So it was like, oh, there is a
universal quality to these
images. They are mine, but
they're also also universal. So
on one level, I was teaching
people the way, the way the
methods I used on my own mainly
to get myself not just through
it, but through in a creative
way, and to be able to create
wonderful things which I had the
privilege of doing. But on
another level, I think I find
that people I meet will tell me
things they've never told
anyone. That's not because of
the imagery. I think it's
because they feel and someone
said that I would be
unshockable, that I would be non
judgmental, that I would just
listen and say, Oh, yes, I know
what you mean of course. And I
have this expression which
people really resonate with, of
looking at people and yourself
with compassion for your pain
and limitation, and respect for
your magnificence at the same
time. And I think that, that is
like a great lesson for people
to learn. Because when we're
feeling bad, then we are bad,
then we're no good, then nobody
would love me, you know, all the
negative stuff happens. But for
someone to say, I can see your
suffering. And I have compassion
for that. And I also know that
you're amazing at the same time.
And I discovered this when I was
working with people's fears of
the future, because I discovered
that their fear of the future, I
mean, say it was a being poverty
and said, poverty and sitting
under the arches. It turned out,
it wasn't that they didn't have
money, and were under Dr. And
turned out that it was because
they collapsed, and forgot who
they were. And that was the
thing they were afraid of so. So
my method of dealing with it was
to take the person, the present
person into the future picture
and look at that person with
compassion, and also respect to
their magnificence. And the
person would wake up and say,
Oh, I'm not just a slob under
the arches, you know, I'm a
creative person I can, I can, I
can manage this. So maybe on the
deepest level, it is teaching
people that compassion for their
pain and limitation. Doesn't
mean that they're not
magnificent. It's that they are
both that we are all both and,
and that, and that someone who's
going through hell is going
through hell, but that doesn't
make them any less magnificent.
And that is, is a really amazing
thing to know. And I think it's
a relief to people. It's a great
relief. I remember once when I
had this experience of realising
that the difficult things and
the good things were like the
cocktail of being me. And it
wasn't that I was bad when I
felt bad. You know, when I
realised that I just got hard, I
thought, oh, I can do anything,
then. You know,
it's definitely been one of the
big learnings for me in in the
months that we've been working
together is this. Well, I mean,
I think I described it actually,
in one of the sessions, one of
the practice sessions that we
did is there is room for pain
and joy that that that's how it
kind of felt that it translated
inside me was that I have room
for pain and joy, I don't the
joy does, doesn't have to be
pushing the pain away. And the
pain doesn't have to overwhelm
the joy, there is room for both.
And so yes, I, I hear that. The
resonance of what you're, you're
saying that that is the thing
that sits underneath, and it
immediately prompts a question
for me, like, as you were
growing up, who, who gave you
that? That experience of seeing
you in your magnificence and
respect for your pain?
See, interesting question and
did I think it was only sort of
under the surface, but I have a
feeling that my father
understood me and saw who I was.
Because I was like him in some
ways. You know, so after doing
scarer us in creating this
wonderful world, and, and
knowing that that would have
been his, you know, he would
have wanted something like that.
And I said to him, how do you
feel? And my father was very
brilliant and creative, but also
very socially unskilled. He's
probably add all the things we
didn't know about, you know, he
was he's probably hyper at, you
know, all these things that stop
people from achieving what they
want to and I said, How do you
feel that you couldn't fulfil
that great potential view as you
said, Well, I feel okay, because
I feel like you've done it
because that's what I would have
liked to do. So I thought my
father I had something of the
quality of going deep into the
personal and the universal,
especially the universal, I
think he had that quality, but
it was never nourished in him.
So it took it was only when he
was older that he started to
understand himself better. So I
think that might be, I remember
I had a cousin who's lap I used
to sit on. And I think that was
amazing that someone wanted me
to sit on their lap. My family
was difficult for me, because
because I had a sister that
died, probably why was while I
would, was just conceived, and
therefore there was a feeling in
the family that things were not
right, and that I wasn't the one
they were waiting for, anyway,
because I wasn't heard. I think
that now I didn't know it better
than
I was. There's an awful lot in
your book. So it's not again,
which is immensely moving. And I
have to say it, having read it,
it gave me I felt like I had a
much deeper understanding of
where image work came from. And,
and the source of, of what
you've just been talking about
in terms of respect for pain and
magnificence. And, and you
obviously, you know, and
listening to what you said about
sort of searching for truth, you
know, that that being a kind of
mission that you went on. And
then this recognition that the
truth actually sits inside it's,
there's a as I say, this, I've
got I've got this image of this
map, this this kind of map of
the world and watching so hard
kind of, you know, travelling,
travelling around and doing this
inner world exploration as well
as the material world X. And you
you talk really candidly about
your psychotic episode that you
experienced in your 20s? And I'm
curious about what that taught
you about managing this
distinction between the image
world and the material world?
And how how to kind of hold
that, that delicate balance
between the two, to ensure that
you get the most from both, I
suppose.
Yeah. So I think, for example,
when I was in college, I had a
professor who wanted us to
explore our dreams. And so he
taught us a method, which was
very powerful if that you wake
up, but you try not to even open
your eyes, and with your eyes
closed, you write the dream
down. And as I lived, as I wrote
these dreams, I began to really
be involved with them, because I
was started remembering them or
No, you really, it's a powerful
method. And then one day, I
thought, Well, why do people
think that reality is more
important than the dream world?
It's just that there's
continuity in the one and not
the other. But we spend a lot of
time, you know, and I heard this
question. And I said, Oh, that
if I believe that, I must be
crazy, you know. And I stopped,
I didn't, I stopped doing it. I
didn't hand in the paper, and so
on and so forth. So it was kind
of like that way madness lies
when you don't know the
difference between and what I
learned when I started working.
And what happens if when you
psychotic is you don't
distinguish between which things
are in the real world and which
things are, by your imagination,
some of which is not for the
reason people think, you know,
it's some of which is because
you've lost your assumptions
about how things work. So for
example, I was hearing, as I
said, to summon, the wall is
talking. Now that sounds crazy,
but she walked up to the wall
and saw that there was a radio
and the and the, and the
microphone was off the hook. So
the wall was talking, but a sane
person would have known was
Don't talk. But I thought it was
just as possible that was
talking down to you know, so
some of the reason is because I
have lost all the assumptions
about what was right and what
was wrong, what was real and
what wasn't real. But when I've
learned to work with the
imagery, what I learned was that
you have to hold it Two Worlds
separate and you can go into
the, into the, into the magical
image world. So I could say I'm
a tree, and I haven't got leaves
or fruit as I was saying
earlier, and I can absolutely be
that tree. But somewhere inside,
I know that there's a real world
going on outside me. And that if
anything happened, I could go
back, I could, in an instant, I
could leave the tree behind, and
go back into the real world. And
then if I want to go back into
the tree, I can also leave the
real world behind. But I know
that both are there. And I know,
moreover, that I am experiencing
this world, not for its own
sake. But for the sake. I mean,
it's a wonderful experience. But
that's not why I do it. I do it
in order to understand and
enrich my everyday life, you
know, my way of organising my
reality. So, if I just went, I
have this wonderful experience
of trees, you know, for example,
your your, your, your river,
wonderful experience being a
river, that it didn't stop
there, you knew that had a
meaning for you, and that you
were going to, and those
meanings that come from that
change people's lives? You know,
so, yeah,
it's so two things come up for
me there. One is a really strong
sense that it's purposeful. You
know, when we enter into that
world, it's purposeful. And
there's also all it feels like
there's something really
beautiful around the idea of
it's also about suspension of
disbelief, because that's part
of it, isn't it? Is this, the
trust, trust in what you're
seeing trust and experience. So
away was on top of your mind,
display, and simultaneously,
suspension of belief, in in, in
all this stuff that you've been
fed through your life and all
this stuff that goes on in the
material world,
material world is still there,
it's still
there. Tension suspension, of
belief in the stories in the
narrative that you might be
carrying? Yeah, so actually, and
actually, that, for me, feels
really feels like that it feels
like you are in this sort of
suspended place, or, you know,
that kind of liminal space
where, where it's possible to
see things differently. Yes.
And if you are willing to say I
want to give an example of
people not being willing to So,
for example, a very common image
people have. And we're talking
about images metaphor, there are
many other uses of imagery, but
the visioning and so on, but I'm
thinking of the man in honour
course, I was teaching at a
business who had this image of
being a lion in a cage, and it's
very common image. And always,
there's either the doors really
open or there's a key or it's a
little bit like in Barnard
people think they're trapped,
but they are in trapped. So
always, there's a way out of
that I have never experienced
anybody who's in a cage, and
they don't find a way out. But
this particular man was the only
person I ever saw, who asked the
lion went out of the cage, and
then fell asleep. So he didn't
want to explore that world. And
this man complained about me in
that business, I don't even know
what he said, but he complained
about me, because he thought I
was obviously thought I was
dangerous. And so he refused to
follow through. He didn't go
back into the cage, he just fell
asleep. So you know, we often
say to people don't go back to
sleep. And that means don't go
back into you chose the liberal
lack of awareness that you've
chosen, you know, and, and it's
also true that when you say
doing visioning of the future,
and you get an image of the
future, again, you need to as
you talk about this suspension
of disbelief, you need to forget
what you want. Because if you
and the way I do it, I have
people picture a positive future
and a negative future. Be
Because I'm wanting to see what
will take them down the pathway,
they don't want to go down and
what will it take, help them get
where they really want to be.
And and if you're stuck on
saying, I want to see this, you
know, I want to a future where I
have this boyfriend or I have
this amount of money or I have
this house or whatever, then you
haven't got the freedom to find
out what would really make you
happy. So again, when you're
going into the future, you need
to forget everything you want,
which part of you wants your
your conscious, rational mind
wants, and just say, let me see
what the rest of me has to say.
And then we find out that, for
example, if I'm running the be
running costs and thinking, what
I want is for people to learn as
much as possible. And then I
would say, Well, I would do the
exercise, because I do my own
exercise, that's really
important. And I say it's the
end of the group, and I feel
awful, what's the awful feeling,
I'm exhausted, and so is
everybody else, because we're
all trying to learn what we
everything there is to know, you
know. And then I say, well, the
past of the future, at the end
of the group, and I feel great,
what's the feeling, I feel so
relaxed, and we've connected to
each other. And that's how the
learning came. So the thing I
thought was, my goal would have
made me unhappy. And the thing
that I wasn't conscious of, was
when I needed the connection.
And that has also informed a lot
of my work with people because I
always start with the
connection. Because I realised
that if people are not in
connection, they're not going to
be able to go deep into them
into their, into their inner
life, they need to know that
people need to know their
Harold. So I can teach you 1000
things, it won't go deep. But if
I say to you, I'm here for you.
I've got your back. Would you
like to find out what's going on
for you, then something
different happens. And
in those words, speaks volumes
of compassion. Yeah. You know, I
think that you know, without
that, it's almost like the the
kind of, you know, the sort of
cradle that that holds us.
Without that, then it's very
hard for us to let go enough to
be able to allow change to
happen, because we're still
we're so sort of rigidly stuck.
Yeah. And I'd say the compassion
is also held in the connection,
I think the word connection is
very important. And I, for
example, I've just had a client,
who, when I had a sense of her,
I had this image of her standing
outside the room, which was a
real, it just came to me is what
I call tuning in, get a sense of
something that but it turned out
to really happen. A mother was
holding her sister. And both of
them are close to each other and
looking at her accusingly.
Because somehow it was her fault
that they felt the way they
felt. And she was left out and
accused. So she says when she
tries to connect to somebody,
and they close down, don't
connect, she hasn't got a way of
counteracting those awful
feelings she had at the time,
but the minute she feels a
connection, and that someone
knows who she is, then they melt
away. And so she's working on
finding a way not to be so
dependent on somebody who might
not be able to connect, you
know, but the point is that by
nature, the minute you connect
to someone and feel kinship,
everything is different.
And that that speaks to me of
that connection was self, you
know, with a capital S and, you
know, because when certainly in
my own journey, it was it was
that that I think saved me was
this realisation that inside me.
There is this sort of immense
well of love that I can draw on
forever and it will never, ever
A run dry, makes me quite
emotional saying that because
it's meaningful. But this in
this sense, that's
something everybody knows. I
would say most people don't know
that. No. And a lot of the
spiritual traditions are about
reminding people that, yeah, but
but that would have saved you. I
can imagine
it. I mean, it really did. It
really did. And, and my sense is
that, that's also possibly part
of what saved you, as well, was
this, this sense of that? That
deep inner connection with self?
Whenever I got stuck in having
just the external world, I went
a bit crazy. I sort of had to
have an inner world that made
sense of the outer world, I had
to have that. And when I lost
that connection, I got too
involved in the external world.
You know, for example,
something's going wrong. And I'm
gonna nuts do this goes on, and
that's good. And I'm never going
to find the answer out there.
But when I go back inside, and
maybe I get an image from
myself, or maybe I'll just
settle in myself or whatever.
And I trust that there is a way
through, I suddenly say, oh,
yeah, I have to do this or that.
But I can't do it. Just in the
external world, I think some
people can think some people are
better at that than me. But I
always have to go back inside.
Or have that possibility of
going inside. When things are
really troubling in the external
world, I have to find my way
through the meanings rather than
the, the external story.
And I think that's what it what
you're what you've created
through image work, and the way
it can be used and applied. is,
you know, is is the beauty
within it is that it is so
accessible, because often, what
we're talking about feels very
esoteric, it feels nebulous, it
feels Oh, that's for other
people. But I mean, even in, in
the short time that I've been,
like consciously using what I
now called Image work, as
opposed to sort of naturally
using some elements of it,
because they felt useful for me
before before I started sort of
studying with you. I see the
application of it across thanks.
I don't think I've got a client
that I haven't used some aspect
of image work with, because,
because it's because it's so
accessible.
So which are the, if you think
about these different clients,
what are the different ways
you've used it? Because that's
quite interesting to hear. So
often,
it will be the simplicity of
noticing some of their language,
and then just say, okay, so what
image does that conjure up for
you and, and then kind of
exploring the image just sort of
in the moment in that way, but
also doing some of the longer
exercises, the various sort of
focused exercises. I think what
I've found, tends to come up
more than anything is other
relational ones. So whether that
is in a child or saying goodbye,
saying hello, sort of relational
ones, where people are actually
connecting with someone where
they've got difficulty and being
able to resolve that difficulty
with someone who's living or
dead. And also around where
people are stuck at crossroads,
you know, and so often it's that
language that comes up and it's
you know, people will literally
people use visual language all
the time as well my alertness to
that is so heightened now. And
you know, and how there's
something about your the way
that you have recognised that
it's okay to explore the
negative future or the negative,
past negative inverted commas.
And as well as the positive,
because in order to open up
people's awareness of what all
the options are, and to stop
people getting stuck in what
they think they should be doing,
that I've found to be really
helpful, particularly when
somebody is at the crossroads,
and they're, you know, exploring
kind of different options that
are open to them.
I'll tell the story at the
beginning of my most recent and
my last book. imager, which is
is teaching material to
practitioners, that how I came
to write that book was, it was
the, it was, it was COVID,
locked down. And I just didn't
know what I was going to do with
my life, it didn't feel like
anything made any sense anymore,
because everything I had
believed, we'd all believe was
normal. Was, was disrupted in
this in this surrealistic way.
And, and I couldn't imagine
writing a book I had thought
about reading before, but how
could you read a book who's
going to read a book, you know,
it's like, we're in this amazing
situation. And so I took my own
was actually a CD. And the CDs
are coming back again. And I
played this future exercise, and
I did the negative future. First
and the negative future, I found
myself unable to breathe,
because I was so ashamed. And
because I felt I'd wasted the
year I'd achieved nothing, I
created nothing, I had just
wasted my time. I suppose for
me, when I don't create
anything, you know, it feels
like a waste. And the positive
future. I was holding this book.
And the thing that that exercise
stayed with the positive future
told me what I wanted, but it
was the negative future that
frightened the hell out of me.
And made me realise that I
couldn't just sit around and do
nothing. Because the world had
changed, because I was gonna end
up unable to breathe. You know,
that was quite, it was actually
physically, I thought, I can't
breathe, you know, that was the
week how real the image was. And
so I started, I started on the
proposal the next day, and I
wrote that book. That year, I
was here in Italy, and it was
the year of COVID, and markdown.
And that's when I read the book,
because I knew I had to, because
I'd seen the two futures and
I've had only done the positive
future. I don't know whether
that would have been enough. I
think it wouldn't have been,
because yes, that's a good idea.
So what but yes, it's a good
idea, but if I don't, there'll
be hell to pay you know.
I ran just before Christmas, I
ran an event here at our farm in
Herefordshire. And we did the
space and timeship exercise so I
had 1010 people here, which was
the exercise I've done which is
the same exercise and and as you
end and as you say, sort of as a
practitioner you're also you're
doing the the exercise with the
people that you're working with
you're particularly thinking
that group environment and and
when we were talking about how
far ahead in the future are you
going to take your space and
time ship out of my mouth came
30 years 53 And I will say
that's a long way into the
future but okay, that's what
came up so and that negative
future image that is not
something I I want to be moving
towards so I very much
where you're gonna keep that.
Well. I was shuffling around
here I was at the farm shuffling
about the house had fallen into
complete disrepair. I was living
in the kitchen sort of on a kind
of pallet sleeping on a pallet
in front of the Argo, which
actually, to me sounds quite
nice, but you know, but it was
all really grubby and I mean
like completely fallen apart and
physically I was, I was dressed
in really grubby, like food
stained, dirty clothes. And, and
I was so lonely, I was so
lonely. There was, no one came,
no one came to see me. And, and
I shut everybody out. And in the
positive future, I was in this
room, this room, this is a
converted stable that we was a
wreck of a building when we
first moved here. And I was
sitting at a table just there
looking out of the window,
writing a book. And I had to,
there were two people here who
were kind of working with me in
some way, I wasn't quite sure
kind of what their jobs were.
And Tom was pushing a
wheelbarrow, somewhere up the
garden. And there was a big tent
in one of the fields with other
people running an image work,
exercise.
And could you see because one of
the important things about this
is to see the difference. What
got you What did you have to do?
Or what attitude was was it that
brought you to the negative
future and what brought you to
self belief brought me to the
positive face actually face
facing what we're creating. And
the negative future when the
negative future was I gave up
hope. So you gave
her Pokemon hope deserted? You
can give it up without giving
you up? I suppose. So you know
what? You have to do them? Yeah.
Yeah, keep the faith. Ah, Dana
Zophar.
done so hard, because I was my
birth name. And it means shining
light. And it's the main book of
the Kabbalah, which is the book
of esoteric wisdom. But I was
given that at birth, and I was
never called that because I
thought it was, it seemed to be
such a weird name. My middle
name was Diane. And then that
got translated into Hebrew form,
which was Deena and I was called
Gina most of my life. And my
books are all under the name
Gina. But at about age 67, I
have to go back to my birth
name, which is actually very
confusing, because, you know, if
you have everybody singing You
Happy Birthday. They say your
name and it's just a hodgepodge.
What when I send an email, I
don't know what, uh, you know,
so I've started saying, so gene,
but anyway, uh, you know, me
Zoho now but you originally know
me. And my books are under the
name, Gina glauben. Name, and my
website. And yeah, I will, I
will share, I'll share links.
And I think the other thing as
well, just to say is that you
are running the diploma again,
next year. So the course that
I've been studying with you?
Yes, yes, yes. And I'm looking
forward to anyone who's a
practitioner, who, who would
like to learn about how to use
imagery in their work, which, as
you have said, is invaluable.
And if you go onto my website,
which is very simply Jean
berman.com, and look under the
courses, you'll find that
diploma course and everything
you need to know. So if any of
you listening, are inspired,
please just look at my website
and see how it sounds to you.
And, you know, from my
experience, I think it's
invaluable in for practitioners
in terms of deepening the
support and Brett and adding
Brett's I suppose to their
toolkit in the way that they can
support clients and, and
themselves as well, because, you
know, gosh, I have been on a bit
of a journey, as you know,
through this process.
Yes. I think that's the part of
this compassion thing, I think
is that as I say that people
don't use exercises you haven't
tried on yourself first, because
otherwise you will see them kind
of a little bit at one removed
like you're a little bit
superior. But once you've been
through how yourself you know,
maybe, but once you've been
through the experience, then
you're then you've got that
kinship with them as they go
through it. And I'm sure you
have that with your clients this
feeling, you know, we're all in
this together.
And gosh, I mean, what a lovely
phrase to close on, actually,
because we just, we're all in
this together.
It's been wonderful. I have to
have to give a plug for you,
Henny, because it's been really
wonderful working with you. And
what sticks in my mind is every
time anybody says, oh, less is
more, you say no more is more. I
want more. And is that
passionate? More? That is so
wonderful. Because it's its
appetite for learning and for
living?
Yes. Appetite for learning and
living? I think that is that is
very Yeah, learning.
Loving and loving. Let's let's
add all the ELLs. All right, I'm
so glad that you could join me.
Gorgeous,
thank you for inviting me, it's
been great experience.
What a gorgeous way to spend an
hour of time being with Dina and
I don't know if you could tell.
But you know, there was
something about the quality of
the way Dena thinks and works,
which really challenges you to
get your own mind working in a
more explorative and creative
way. So I feel I feel really
stimulated after that
conversation. And, and I hope
you've really enjoyed listening
to her as well. And I want to
share that, obviously, as Dina
says the diploma is running
again next year. So if you're a
practitioner, a counsellor, a
therapist, and you want to use
image work in your work with
your clients, with your
patients, then do take a look at
the website and all the links
are in the notes. And then the
other thing is that I've
actually got an event coming up
on June the 17th, which is a
morning of exploring an image
work exercise. It's called
wisdom from within. And it's an
invitation to meet with an inner
guide. We all have multiple
inner guides in our imagination,
and through a guided practice
with me to go and explore having
an interaction with your own
inner guide or that connection
that Deena talks about. So I've
there's a link in the notes. If
you're on the mailing list, then
I'll include a link in the email
that I send out or have a search
for me on Eventbrite. And just
look for Henny Flynn and you
should be able to see the event
on the 17th of June. So I will
leave you here and as ever, I
send you so much love and I look
forward to being with you again
next week. All right,
take care, my darlings. I send
you a hug and a wave