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Apertus founder Albert Banks, who has sold two agencies himself, breaks down why fewer than 1% of agencies ever reach a real exit and what actually has to be true for one to be sellable.
Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
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Chris DuBois 00:00
No one was asking for another community, but I've made one anyway. So what's different? The dynamic agency community is designed around access rather than content. Access to peers who've done it before. Access to experts who've designed solutions. Access to resources that have been battle tested. And right now, the price for founding members is only $97 a year. Join today so your agency has immediate access to everything you need to grow. You can join at dynamicagency.community. It's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is Agency Forward. Why do most agencies never reach a real exit?
Speaker 1 00:56
Well, there's a number of reasons. Some, like myself, never even knew we could sell an agency like when we first started, right? A lot of times we you just start out you work like I did. We're working with a buddy, making cool work, and yeah, you're making money at it, and it was great. And all of a sudden, you have a team and people. But really, it's it's actually pretty striking that I think it's like 1% of agencies actually you know reach a successful exit, which is kind of crazy if you think about it. So I think one big thing is you know not just chasing kind of vanity metrics or top line revenue, actually running a profitable business. You know that's something that is is really critical. And if you're going to scale, make sure that you can sort of maintain that profitability as you go through the different stages, so to me, that's probably the main thing. Is is people don't just focus on their agency and treat it like some some sort of asset that can actually sell. It's a little bit more of a, you know, we're making decisions so off the cuff, and because we're not we're not looking at it like that,
Chris DuBois 01:55
right? I wonder how many people like 1% is a shocking number. Like I didn't even realize it was that low. It makes sense though when I look at how many agencies I talk to and stuff. Like when you hear of a good sale, everyone's like, "Oh, congratulations! Like it's surprising almost that they had it. But the I wonder how many people it's just like they could have sold at some point, but they were just they're making money. They're just going about their business, doing everything, and they kind of miss the opportunity at some point. I don't know. There's like,
Speaker 1 02:27
yeah. I you notice I don't use the word lifestyle business, right? Like because that actually people make that out to be like a bad thing, right? Like they're oh they're just running a lifestyle business. Well, I'm pro running a lifestyle business that's profitable, right? Like like running a business that is that is you know doesn't require you to work 60 hours a week. You know you bring home money, you pay your team well, you do great work, and if that can provide you a lifestyle that's like good for your desires, like maybe if you want to work 50 hours, great. If you don't, don't. So if it can be a if it can match the lifestyle you want, I'm all for it, but it's also about you understanding it is a business and not getting too caught up in some of these other things,
Chris DuBois 03:08
right? Well, I think the challenge there is like then it's all on you putting money away for retirement and like doing the responsible things versus like getting that cash out to know, okay, well, these next however many years, like I'm covered, because like I'm running a lifestyle business right now. Like it's just me, solopreneur, doing my thing. I'm happy with everything, but there's no way I can sell my business. Like it is the business is me, and so like I'm at a detriment. I feel like in a lot of ways, but
Speaker 1 03:38
I can I can totally relate to that. I'm yeah since I since I left the agency world, that's exactly where I am as well. As and I just accept that I'm not I'm not what I'm doing now is not something I would ever sell, right? You know, I I totally accept that. But it's what I want to do. It matches my lifestyle and how I want to help people and and spend time with family and all that kind of stuff. So that's what I'm sort of preaching. I guess is that you can still run a run an agency and be very successful and and have a great life. You know, have have enough.
Chris DuBois 04:06
Yeah, I have seen it with agency owners. It is it is possible. So I guess let's get into the the topic. If let's say you are running an agency and you do want to maintain optionality, right? Like I think that's like probably the ultimate goal for an agency owner to just like yeah maybe I don't know if I want to sell but like be great if I could sell if I knew that when I decide I might want to it's ready. What are some of the things you should be doing in order to enable that?
Speaker 1 04:36
Yeah, I think I think one of the biggest things is build something that'll work without you, right? If you're gonna sell, then that likely means you're not gonna be around for a while. Right, at some point, it's typically a reason to get out of the situation you're in. So, enabling a leadership team, bringing in you know a partner that can sort of balance you. Building systems and scale and processes that are that are that can survive you, you making yourself sort of uninvolved, right? And you can even measure that. Like, how often do I have to be involved in a pitch to win business? How often do I have to step in and deal with account issues? How often do I have to solve a process problem? So, the less time you do that, the more that means you have a great team, you have a great you know system and operations in place, so that yeah, one day if you were to sell, there's not going to be so that ding and that requirement that you stick around or or worry even that it'll fall apart once you do sell.
Chris DuBois 05:37
Yeah, that you just brought up an interesting point that I haven't thought of. Like, so I use Rise for time tracking, and so it measures whatever I'm doing. Like it's just it's looking at my screen and doing it for me and applauding. It would be really interesting to see as a founder if my goal is to step away from the business to just be able to look at that and see the rate of change for how my tasks are shifting. Obviously, you can do that without rise. I just I had to plug a sponsor, I guess. But the but that would be a pretty cool metric to be looking at. Just like how how involved am I, and is that my rate of change like is that speeding up towards me getting out of the business?
Speaker 1 06:16
Well, yeah. First off, I love any tool that can make time tracking easier and more people doing it. I I was non I was non billable for like the last decade of my agency life, and I I still track time for that reason to know what am I working on. Some of it was like okay, what are the seasons where this is you know I'm working on accounting or legal or whatever more often, but some of it yeah was how you know where do I need to need to dedicate more time or where do we need more staff, or where where should I leverage a third party? So yeah, I would encourage leaders to to to do that to just have an understanding of what they are actually working on, and does that jive with what is their job? You know, because often you're a founder or owner, and but you're also you know revenue officer or growth officer, CFO, or whatever. So how much of your time are you really spending doing different things is is valuable information to to understand.
Chris DuBois 07:03
What do you think is the biggest reason the like an agency owner can't get out of the business?
Speaker 1 07:12
Ooh, I can think of a couple. I think I think one is, and you maybe don't experience this until after the transaction is how much your sort of ego and your personality and your identity is caught up in the thing. When you go through a sale, whether it's with you know a broker, an advisor, or even a diligence, like they're they're really poking at at this thing that you built, right? That you probably have have this kind of appreciation and love for, and so people can get offended, and people can can be disillusioned about how much their their thing is worth. So yeah, I think I think understanding of reality and being too close to it, honestly, you know, is is is a detriment for for not being able to sell. And then the other is just just things are unexpected. Things happen, and if if you're not running a good business, you're going to get caught off guard. I mean, I think the difference between my two transactions are sort of reflective of that. You know, the first time I sold, we sold my job to Union, and it was more a reaction of the partner dynamic. My my first partner wanted to exit and get out of agency life and go back to Florida, so it's not like we had been, you know, building a profitable business with the you know mindset to sell, and so we weren't exactly ready. But we we landed in a great spot with a local competitor, which which had a lot of different benefits. The second time we sold, we we sort of had that in mind. Like eventually, if we reach certain milestones and we maintain certain growth and profitability, then then we would be good to go. And so when it was time, we had that track record, we had that background, and we were we were much more prepared. So you may think you're not going to sell anytime soon, and then life will throw something at you, and you may have to. I've seen agency owners deal with health issues, partner issues, family issues, whatever it may be, and and they need to get out, and they're kind of stuck, which is so sad, and I I feel for them, so so yeah, just running a business where you can sell it, you have that optionality, you know, if again it's probably the biggest asset you you own or will ever own, so you know. Make sure you're taking care of it, and and you're you have that optionality, like you described.
Chris DuBois 09:27
Yeah, I think there's always this like kind of hopeful. I don't know if it's a prayer, a wish that like, hey, maybe someone's just acquiring agencies, and they're going to come just make an offer, and that lands on our plate. Now we get to make this decision, but obviously you could even if that happened, you could be making more by being deliberate and like building your business and making sure you have that like set up. A piece of advice I'd gotten like when I was running an agency was you should. Get your business like valued every so often. Just even if you have no intention of selling, just to see like, well, what what are we worth right now? And then you kind of start factoring. Okay, well, if I made certain changes, it could be worth this, and so that you're always kind of building towards that. I guess, what's your recommendation around that? And then, what are like, where do you even go to have someone do that for you?
Speaker 1 10:25
Yeah. So first things, I was in the same boat. Like I had no idea. You know, I thankfully we've been a part of some organizations like Soda where they share some education around that, and there's sort of our annual annual get together. There's there's a session about that that sort of explains the different buyers and how this works. And so, gosh, I'm sure the first couple years I was just like glazed over, like, yeah, sure, whatever, we're not selling. But yeah, there's some very basic mechanics, like that it is based on you know EBITDA, which is your effectively your margin after after everything, and that the fact that there's different multiples at different sizes, you know these are some some very basic things. I'm I'm actually an owner in totally different type of business that's value based on top line revenue and not margin. In fact, can be a loss, and so yeah, just understanding how how this business is is valued is is helpful. There there are folks that can do it for you, like you know punctuation is one of those resources that does sort of a evaluation exercise, but you can also sort of somewhat ballpark it for yourself, right? There's some common numbers out there about where those different thresholds are, where multiple changes. There's there's there's information about how you know how you can sort of adjust your EBITDA and how you how you look at the difference between owner comp and things like that. It's a it's a service I provide, just kind of that education around here's what it looks like and here's sort of the the factors. I do it more for yeah them to run a better business so they they have that information and and they're they're better prepared with what what sort of you know you can't look at your business one way and not realize well when someone else is coming in from the outside and wants to to value you, they're going to look at it a different way. So yeah, you you have to get that education, and there's organizations that also can help help with that. Right.
Chris DuBois 12:11
When when you are educating someone on this, what is the most surprising thing for them?
Speaker 1 12:18
I I think it is around the the owner's comp and the owner's value, like understanding, you know, if you're just because you pay yourself a low salary doesn't mean all of a sudden that that high even or margin that you've created is that's going to be adjusted for it, right? Like you say, oh no, if you exit, the reasonable salary is that, and they're just going to adjust it, right? So just understanding that there's no real way to game the system, right? You just have to run a a good business, and and and all those things will get get worked out because people who do these acquisitions they they know the math.
Chris DuBois 12:48
So you hear that, everyone listening, you should pay yourself now, like 100%
Chris DuBois 12:53
There's, I've talked to multiple agency owners who have exited, and that was like their biggest regret.
Speaker 1 12:59
Yep,
Chris DuBois 12:59
like I spent 10 years not paying myself, thinking that was going to actually do something, and then like it realizing it it didn't matter in the end.
Speaker 1 13:07
That's right. Yeah, you should pay yourself. You should pay yourself what you are worth. Like if you can just do distributions of dividends after, that's great. Like, but you yeah, you should bring home a living wage, right, and and and get the same benefits of of working at your company, right?
Chris DuBois 13:23
I think one of the other things I see agency owners surprised by, which I'm not sure why, it's like they expect their their multiple to be closer to like a tech companies, but it's like I don't know if they just don't understand margins of a tech company are way better than what an agency can produce, and so like even just from a business model perspective, like you you can't grow that much, like or grow someone's wallet that much compared to the other.
Speaker 1 13:51
Yeah, the scalability is just completely different in terms of yeah when you're providing what used to be at least people service, which is now you know we can we don't want to go down the AI conversation necessarily, but yeah, that's that's how those businesses scale, right? They've got a product that's sort of digital and can scale well beyond the people costs, and so of course, yeah, you can you can have totally different margins there than you would later. You know, there's something to you know sort of multiple arbitrage where if you can get over a certain threshold or do like we did and sort of similar size agencies come together. Well, you've just jumped over a plateau, literally just by joining forces. And so, just understanding and unlocking, like, oh, I could be even more valuable doing the same thing, but just together with someone. Like, wow, that's that's an interesting unlock. And I'm I'm honestly seeing that more and more in the market now. Of I thought I was going to be educating folks a lot on on exiting, and I'm actually talking a lot about that are doing bolt-ons, that are doing their own little acquisitions, you know, sort of for that reason to shore up their agency or to, you know, be more viable when they do have an eventual exit themselves.
Chris DuBois 14:55
Now, are those more acquisitions or? On like merging, like
Speaker 1 15:02
yeah, it's all it's all relative, I guess. But I I would say acquisitions, yes, it's more like hey, we we were looking for somebody a third to half our size, right? So they're we're still sort of the primary. They're they're kind of tucking under either to to reduce the client concentration or add add add to service offerings or something like that, or yeah, maybe there's maybe it is a little bit more of an Accu hire or somebody that has run a nice you know business, but sort of they want to exit, and and and because of that dynamic, they could actually exit because the founders of the acquirers are staying on, staying on, and there's maybe even duplicative roles, and so it's totally fine if if the owner leaves, or basically becomes an employee, right? Takes that pressure off of themselves, gets something. What is it? Take chips off the table, so to speak, and then yeah, work. Continue to do the work you were doing, and as long as you enjoy it,
Chris DuBois 15:52
right? Yeah, that is. You're definitely seeing that more now. I say you, as I'm like everybody. I think like I'm even hearing about these just a lot more frequently. Agencies coming together, and I don't know. Like in a lot of the stories, I guess I'm I'm seeing it's because one of them is usually under a lot of pressure with like the lead gen is starting to struggle. You know, AI is disrupting a lot of their Their industry, and so someone else is sweeping them up, I guess, to you know embolden their own business. But for the person who's being bought, it's like they could wait and potentially have their agency die, or at least make something from it now. And so it's like they've almost lost that optionality because of it, but at least they have some like a nicer exit still.
Speaker 1 16:45
That's right. Yeah, I mean, yeah, they're they're kind of distressed in that in that in that in that situation. And I always, you know, it was interesting when in our sort of local market there was this weird competition amongst agencies, and there wasn't a lot of collaboration. Whereas I was part of this soda group where it was like uber transparent and helpful amongst each other, even though we were sort of competitors, mostly competitors. But I'm I'm I'm totally of the mind of yeah, get to know your competitors or your peers, and like me, you never know. One day you could be in business together, right? That could be a solution for for the both of you. So right, yeah,
Chris DuBois 17:20
yeah. I think that's as a positioning coach. That's something I wish more people would do. It's like you're not the best fit for everybody. If you can get really specific on who you're the best fit for, take them in and then send everyone else to your competitors. And like I have other agency coaches who send referrals to me. I send them back, and it's even though we do pretty similar things, but it's like I'm really good at sub million dollar agencies, they're you know they're bigger at bigger ones. It's just like finding that, but yeah, the competition. You still know the competition to know where you need to position yourself. But yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1 17:51
yeah. We've had we've had employees spin out their own thing, and we've yeah I don't know maybe even invested in them or yeah to your point sent them work where we we've disqualified them from our main agency, but they're perfect for this other group. So yeah, maintaining those relationships is is really really valuable because you never know how that's going to work, and yeah, you're passing leads back and forth. Right.
Chris DuBois 18:14
In your own experience, if you had to do like an 8020 exercise, and you say, what are those few decisions you made that led to the biggest results. Where would you go?
Speaker 1 18:31
I would say having a more streamlined role for myself was really, really valuable for me. I think like anxiety-wise, you know, not feeling like I had to have all the balls in the air. Like we had real people owning certain areas, so really having a more defined position and a large and a slightly larger organization was was sort of a big decision for me. And I thought that was that was really viable. I could then go deeper in the areas that I had coverage on, and I was, and and honestly, it's kind of where I am, why I am where I am now that I can coach and advise others on it is because I've spent years sort of more focused in my in my role versus having to understand everything that's going on in sales and marketing and and you know everything that's going on in the work or the technology of the work we're building. I can really focus on the running of the business. So for me it was having. I don't know. I know it's harder when you're a smaller agency. That's obviously more difficult.
Speaker 2 19:26
But
Speaker 1 19:26
getting to a point where I could wear less hats and then to go deeper and be better, I think the agency was better for it, and I was better for it.
Chris DuBois 19:33
What was the hat you were wearing?
Speaker 1 19:36
So really, my when I when I left it was around finance and operations, and we we were very simple with how we looked at the agency. There was you know get the work so that new business or marketing there was do the work which obviously is the lion's share of the the company and then everything else. So I was everything else right. So that's all the non-billable stuff that just has to work and be right. So yeah, HR. Finance, talent acquisition, resourcing, legal, insurance, IT, office, right. So all the things that just had to be sort of the backbone of the the company to make sure, frankly, that everybody else could could do the cool creative work that we always wanted to do, and they weren't they weren't disrupted,
Chris DuBois 20:16
right? And so, how many partners did you have? Was it
Speaker 1 20:20
two? So we started with two. We came together with another agency that had another partner that wanted to exit, and so the two of us stayed. Yeah, and then
Chris DuBois 20:28
were so were they like the doing the work, getting the work, kind of leading those charges, or did they have a more distributive front?
Speaker 1 20:36
Yeah, he was more a little bit more distributed, so he was more the the sort of CEO to my kind of CFO or COO role. He spent more time in oversight of the work and sales, but eventually we did have leaders in those areas as well, which which frankly got us to the point where he could exit when we exited more shortly thereafter because there was key leads in those key business areas. Yeah,
Chris DuBois 21:00
was there like a and okay if you want to pass on this one? Was there like a mistake, like some regret you have for when you were building up the agency and things you were doing that you're like, man, I wish I never made that type of decision. Just knowing it cost sweat, cash, something later.
Speaker 1 21:21
Um. we probably multiple times kept people and people in leadership positions that we should have not kept. You know, there was a reason to keep them. There was something positive that they were doing that gave them rope, but I think we sort of knew at the core it wasn't right, it wasn't the right fit, or whatever it was, and we should have made a change, and that had longer term ramifications for us. So, so yeah, making making the hard decision when it comes to personnel. Some of it's because it it the change is so disruptive, right? And so you're like, well, they're not perfect, you know. There's this this thing that's really not great, but man, to replace them, oh, like so much else I got to do. Like, let's just live with it, you know. And and you do, and and that works for a while, and then it eventually comes crashing down.
Chris DuBois 22:19
Yeah. So I guess separate from just being intentional, like having that hard conversation earlier, are there things you started doing just in in the hiring process, in the operations process, like for how people are structuring their work and stuff to kind of catch those things earlier and make sure you had the right people in the right seats?
Speaker 1 22:39
For sure, yeah. We we embedded our values into like as much as we could, right? We had we had these core values, and this is how we wanted to operate. And so when we were doing interviews, we were asking questions that were sort of around that to see if they were aligned with it. When we talked about the decisions we made and how we were going to go about things, we used the values. When we did our, you know, we did even quarterly check-ins, but certainly the annual reviews. Everyone was literally measured on each and every value, right? So we were able to see, like, okay, is this person, you know, obviously performing their work? That's one sort of measurement. But you know, were they doing the things that kept our culture and the way we want to go about things going in the right direction, you know, not causing disruption or us to digress from that.
Chris DuBois 23:27
Yeah. All right. I want to hang out here for a second because this is values are something that like they bother me to no end when you go look at like a company website and it just says like integrity and you know we work hard. It's like what company is going to say like no, we don't work hard and we don't value integrity. Like it does nothing, but when you can show people how this shows up in your business every day and stuff, like it's real easy for people to step into it and know if they're taking the right actions.
Speaker 1 23:56
Yeah, like yeah, absolutely. It's it's obviously like I said, we we did it during the interview process, but then first day onboarding, it's very literal of not only here are values, but here's how that plays out. Here's what that looks like, right? And here's the here's the situations where you might see that, and literally even in conversations, we say, "Hey, because we value this, we're going to do this, or we we need to make sure we cover this, right? So just like having it in your vernacular, spoiler work for anybody that works with me. If if I ever do your business assessment, that's one of the things I ask in my interviews. Is I ask your team and your specifically your leadership what the values are, and if they can't rattle them off like right away, that that tells me like this is not being used in the in the company, right? Like it's not being infused in in how they speak, how they how they measure, and and so that's just that's not going to work. You're not going to you know infuse your what you want your culture to be if if that's not just part of how you speak and how you work.
Chris DuBois 24:53
Yep, the especially like again as a positioning coach, it's like your. Like the way you're thinking about this, your opinions, your like everything about who you are as a team is a reason for someone to come work with you, like to choose you over the competition when they can see everything you're doing. Like that goes way further than just some headline on your website. I wish more people appreciated that fact. I want to get into like the actual like deal making process now. Like when like when you're selling, what are the negotiations like? What's the I don't know. Like what were you thinking through as you were going through that?
Speaker 1 25:40
Yeah, I mean, I had two very different transactions. The first time was obviously motivated by something something different, and I was learning along the way. The second time was a very deliberate process where we were we were proactively going to sell and went through a full on process, and that is very involved, right? From from just sourcing and determining who our advisor was going to be to the extended team, meaning the you know specialist legal specialist tax accounting advisors, just sort of gathering that group and then going through the whole process of like yeah understanding who we could sell to, what was that like? I think we started with a list of 120, 140 potential buyers, and that sort of got whittled down. Understanding what a an LOI was, just learning a ton about what it really looked like in that in that in that scale and that scope, and and how how many sort of roller coaster situations there would be. Right, where one day you're like oh this is going to be great. Another day you're like we're never going to sell or this deal is going to fall apart at the last hour, right? So the the sort of even keel you have to be in a very sort of emotional process. Which gosh, at this point, I guess as agency members, we should be used to that, but it's a different flavor for sure.
Chris DuBois 27:00
So I know, yeah, very little of like the deal process. I've always had people I can just send agencies to if they have questions about it. But what, like, I guess how expensive is it to bring all of these like advisors that you should have into the engagement? Right, the financial people, the people who are going to look at your books, and like I don't know everything else.
Speaker 1 27:21
Yeah, typically, you know, the the the broker or the advisor is sort of a success fee, so it's a percentage of your deal, and that can vary pretty widely. You know, 345, percent up to 10, 12% I guess it depends on sort of the structure and how how much they're advising versus they're being a broker. You know, attorneys and CPAs and things like that is usually based on a very expensive hourly rate. But all those all those fees will kind of come out as like once you close, like you kind of get your money after everybody gets paid. Right. So you just sort of assume there's a percentage that's going to go to that team. But and it and it will sound like a lot and it will feel like a lot, but it will be worth it because they will save you from from from mistakes. They'll save you from paying too much too much taxes and and structuring the deal in a way that that kind of catches you off guard or creates a risk for you. So, right, absolutely, is worth every penny.
Chris DuBois 28:16
Loosely, are we talking like 10% 20% Like what's I don't know average ballpark.
Speaker 1 28:25
Yeah, it just depends on on the advisor. Yeah, if if it's sort of in that, I would say for an advisor, maybe three to 7% is on the high end. If you're a broker, maybe it's sort of in that lower end where you're not actually you're sort of just bringing the person to say, hey, this this is for sale, right? And then, yeah, it depends on how complex your deal is for for your attorney and your your CPA. How long that's gonna gonna take? How many back and forths do you have to have on some of these terms, on these long agreements? How complicated is the deal, right? Do you have real estate tied up in your business or any other IP? How many partners are they? Are they all wanting sort of the same deal or a different deal? So some of it can be just based on the complexity of it. So it can vary.
Chris DuBois 29:09
All right. So if there is, yeah, one piece of advice you think every agency owner should leave this conversation with, what is it?
Speaker 1 29:21
Run. Yeah, run your business like you're going to sell it, even if you're not. Like that's as simple as I can, you know. And that's that's obviously a financial statement. That's a lifestyle statement, and all the above.
Chris DuBois 29:34
Cheers. All right, I got two more questions as we wind down here. The first being, what book do you recommend every agency owner should read.
Speaker 1 29:43
Well, I'll give you two. The first I always answer is traction because if you're not running a system or don't have a system for running your agency, you should. So let's assume you you have that. I really love who, not how. It really made me sort of think about the type of work I. Was doing and as a developer, computer engineer, like problem solver, I it was easy for me to just do the very tactical work that is that is frankly kind of the low hourly rate work when I really should be doing the high hourly rate sort of strategic or oversight work. So yeah, recognizing that I didn't have to learn how to do everything; that I there were people out there that could do it and love doing it, that could could take those things like a bookkeeper, for example, or you know whatever it may be. So that was that was very influential on on me, sort of reframing me thinking I had to wear every single hat versus no, there's like a person who loves that hat and they're not that expensive, and that would free me up to do where the hell thought I'm wearing. So that was that was a big finding for me.
Chris DuBois 30:45
Yeah, both good recommendations. The last question is: Where can people find you?
Speaker 1 30:51
You can find me on the website apertus.co or on LinkedIn, Albert Banks or Appertus.
Chris DuBois 30:57
Awesome. We'll get all those linked up in the show notes. Albert, thanks for joining.
Speaker 1 31:01
Absolutely, thanks for having us.
Chris DuBois 31:06
That's the show, everyone. You can leave a rating and review, or you can do something that benefits you. Click the link in the show notes to subscribe to Agency Forward on Substack. You'll get weekly content, resources, and links from around the internet to help you drive your agency forward.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai