Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to the We Got Your Six podcast. Our mission is to end veteran suicide. If you are struggling with thoughts of hopelessness or suicide, please reach out to family, friends, a classmate, or call 988 for immediate help.
We are here for you, and we want you to be here with us tomorrow.
The We Got Your Six podcast is a production of the West Point Class of 1999 and the 99 Legacy Fund. The podcast is hosted by Phillip Naithram and produced by Brennan Wallace, with technical production by Scott Bronikowski.
If you would like to make a tax-deductible donation towards the 99 Legacy Fund’s mission to support the survivors of our fallen, please visit www.99legacyfund.org to donate. With Duty In Mind.
Phillip K. Naithram 00:32
Oh, you got your you got your shirt on.
Chris Mayo 00:35
I got my shirt on. Yeah. Representing the 99 trial proudly.
Phillip K. Naithram 00:40
Yeah, check that out. Well, smart water. Smart Water. Yep. hydrated? Yeah. Yeah, well, that's a great place to start. You know what Chris mayo, thank you so much for joining us here at the we got your six Podcast. I'm really excited to talk to you. We had a great time. In our, our initial meeting, you know, we got connected and we've been planning this episode, episode number two here on the we got your six podcasts, I really appreciate being here.
Chris Mayo 01:08
Thank you so much, Phil, it's definitely an honor for me to be here. And to speak to our class and friends of the class. And I want to take this opportunity to really thank you, and everyone that was involved in creating this, we've got your six podcast to include a legacy funds, just a lot of outstanding people volunteering their time to help us be connected and to have some good conversations all for the betterment of us as a class. So I'm very honored to be here and excited to, to share some some stories with you this morning.
Phillip K. Naithram 01:44
Ya know, it's, you know, human connection. That's what we need more of in the world. And, you know, obviously, at West Point, there's a massive amount of that when you're there, and when you're in service, but sometimes we can lose it, you know, when we're out in the world, and I never was in the West corner. But I've seen the benefit of having a community and human connection has been the solution to a lot of my problems. So definitely, that's what we hope to do here. With this. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I mean, you know, 9099. to Now, it's been a while, but you know, and you're not in the army, you're not active duty, you're actually at the VA, right, you're doing some pretty important work over there with cybersecurity, and I think protecting some of the platform there for benefits for veterans like yourself, right?
Chris Mayo 02:35
Correct. I work for the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Office of Information and Technology, currently under the Chief of Staff for Freedom of Information Act records, assessment and compliance, and privacy really, for the entire agency. So really focused on protecting not only veterans information, but also information and personally identifiable information for VA employees. So pretty important role, take it very seriously. And it really is an honor to work for an organization that works for people like us, right? Veterans, friends and family of veterans. So it's probably one of the most rewarding jobs that I've ever had. And I'm very honored to work for the VA and to support our veterans.
Phillip K. Naithram 03:25
Yeah, that's awesome. That's I mean, you know, you've done a you've had a couple of different careers, I know that we're gonna we're gonna touch on a couple of those and to hear you spoke speak so well, about being able to still continue to be of service is really great. But yeah, let's, you know, I mean, let's give a little bit of background. So you're at West Point, did you come from a military family? Or how did you find yourself even filling out the application for West Point or thinking about the United States Army versus any other branch or just the military in general?
Chris Mayo 03:55
Yeah, great, great question. I did come from a military family. My father was a mechanic in the army stationed in booting in Germany, which is actually where I was born and raised, kind of the classic American soldier who gets stationed overseas and meets German lady and here we are. So that was my upbringing in Germany, and never really had the desire to join the army myself. In fact, there was a period of time in high school where I was kind of anti Oregon uniform, such strict adherence you know, thought of it as being brainwashed and just going around like robots and told what to do that type of thing. So it's kind of ironic, how I how I got into the army number one enlisted and then transition to West Point. But really, you know, how I how I got there is and I'll give a little bit more background into my my family kind of who, who I am or was, again, grew up in Germany and was stoic German fan. way product of divorce and have a family situation that was manipulative, controlling where guilt was the name of the game you got what you wanted from people by guilting them into things. And growing up into after we came to the States in Junior High High School and a stepfather who was also psychologically abusive. Lee engaged in gaslighting. He was a he was a pretty bad guy. So I learned right out of the gate or moving on what shaped me right out of the gate was really three things be stoic, don't show any emotion suck it up and drive on. Number two, you can't trust anyone especially not those people close to you. And then number three distinct saying myself from bad stuff by just being busy, keep distract myself be busy, busy, busy. And so what a great spot to be is the army where you're rewarded for being stoic, you know, suck it up and drive on, you're like who are you can set the example by not showing emotion and being, quote unquote, strong leader. So I was really drawn to the army initially to kind of escape, I felt like I have these kind of ingrained traits and characteristics. And the Army is a great place for me to kind of use those as a strength or the have those be viewed as a strength. So that initially brought me to the army as an enlisted soldier. And then I was struggling I tell her story, it was a complete fluke that I applied to West Point. I was a jock in high school had good good grades, straight A's students, student council, again, kind of a function of work hard for myself and everything else. But my, my home life, so I excelled that anything and everything that I could. So I had a pretty good, quote unquote, resume for a high school kid joining the army and when my records were being reviewed, at basic training for military intelligence, I was there an extra couple days for the security clearances and whatnot, someone thought, hey, this seems like a great candidate for West Point. So someone from basic training, admin approached me and said, Hey, have you ever thought about going to West Point? And? No, actually, I had not. So it was kind of this opportunity that was lobbed into my lap. And I actually didn't find out, I was accepted to the the prep school until I was at my advanced individual training. But then I had my orders to go to Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. And I thought, well, that's pretty sexy Hawaii and my first duty station, maybe I'll just go do that and not do this West Point thing. And then the better of me thought, you know, this is really a pretty incredible opportunity. So I did make the decision to go to West Point via the the prep school. So that's, that's how I ended up there.
Phillip K. Naithram 08:00
Yeah, no, that's, that's an awesome story. But it makes sense, right? It makes sense. And, you know, it's funny, as the more we have these conversations with each other, we start to find that there's so many, so many similarities to the way that we grew up. And a lot of it is not, I mean, look, well, you know, what's funny is my dad was a mechanic also. Very cool. You know, not in Germany, but just, I don't, I don't think it has anything to do with anything. It's just kind of like a funny little thing. But what does, you know, the idea of you need to be seen but not heard. And we get used to doing that and just pushing through things. So we don't speak up when things feel bad, and we don't understand boundaries, we don't get that sort of message in our youth. Right? And, and guilt and shame, I'm a product of healthy amount of guilt and shame. If only you could be like that person, then we could be proud. So you need to do more in order to do this. And all of my validation came externally. And that's how I learned to understand if I was doing well or not, did I get good grades or not? Did I pass? Was I the captain? Or was I just on the team was I? How many tackles did I make? How many if I can't tackle because they're all bigger than me, can I block how many blocks that I make? What's the measurement to show that I'm good enough. And we just kind of push through that and excel at it. Like we learn how to do that. And for me, it was to avoid criticism, avoid the shame, I want it to not feel that way because I got taught that that was on the other end. It sounds like you had something similar, you know, in your youth, but it wasn't all about like, it's not all bad, right? It's when it's too much of one way or the other, it's gonna go pretty bad. But when you can learn to regulate that you probably do some pretty great things. I mean, how was your experience once you're at West Point, and graduating, you know what, what was that experience? Like?
Chris Mayo 09:48
You know, what's one I'll admit was tough for me academically, you know, so much, so much going on. So much pressure to be the The cream of the crop and the best of the best and to try to live up to the ideals that West Point espouses. And then not not being comfortable in my own skin not really having a good sense of who I am not I was emotionally immature. So I didn't make a lot of what I would say strong connections might have looked like that on outside, he's pretty good at being like the chameleon and sense of humor and hanging out with people. But on the inside I was I just kind of felt disconnected. So I had kind of a rough time at West Point, personally, professionally, it was an amazing place for me to be because well, because of what was going stands for, you know, you're, you're about to, to lead the sons and daughters of America, so to speak, be in charge of their welfare. So it was a huge honor. And then again, then brought some of that pressure to pressure to perform pressure to be the best. So once I you know, I graduated from West points commissioned into the military police corps, it was an honor to serve and I, I always thought what a what a knucklehead I was ever considered just going to Schofield Barracks, Hawaii, when I was offered the opportunity to go to West Point. And so I really, you know, bought into taking care of soldiers and doing the right thing for people and being a trying to be a good leader. And I love it. And at the same time, I never quite felt like I was okay, something was always missing. I would set set goals for myself or there was a promotion or rocking a, an exercise or setting the standard for a new training thing. And I had that little high of like, Yep, I gotta recognize I gotta coin my soldiers seem to love me. And then there always was this thing that was missing. And so I was always changing something, thinking when I get to this next accomplishment, that's gonna be it. That's the one I'm gonna feel like that's gonna be it's gonna fix me and I'm afraid Yeah, yeah, I feel like enough.
Phillip K. Naithram 12:09
Exactly. Yeah, but yeah, it sounds like you did a pretty good job of moving the goalposts like you get to the things like well, but that's not good enough because I found that that dopamine high seems to get smaller and smaller and smaller, right, like it was really great in the beginning and then over time, it didn't last as long so I had to come up with something else. And I don't know like it seems like we were the only ones coming up with that measurement list no one else was saying you need to go do more like it was only between our ears like we had the entire conversation with ourselves.
Chris Mayo 12:43
Like Very good point. You know, I to your point, spend a lot of time in my head it's the proverbial the story I'm telling myself is you know, I'm not not good enough or people look at me a certain way if I don't do XYZ always comparing and measuring to to the outside, which was especially challenging being among so many incredible classmates and with classmates that are there doctors or commanding battalions there someone's going to be the first general guaranteed someone's going to be the first female general so we're our class is just surrounded by these incredibly talented, gifted people. And at the end of the day, we're really pretty similar like we have the same struggles the same challenges but to be in that mindset of constantly comparing and not feeling enough and being in your head. That's what really, really was was tough for me. And so I took a lot of opportunities to to Job hop to kind of I actually, when I was in the army, I had a back injury and dealt with some chronic pain and I was in a spot in my career where I was just feeling like the fraud like I'm not not really this person that people think I am you know, why would someone want to follow me into battle that type of thing. And I was struggling with chronic pain and not being able to run the PT test so I felt like okay, here's I'm a failure, I can't even do PT I'm struggling with making weight because I'm not doing PT so when a doctor approached me and said Hey, we should really think about a medical board I was all in because that was my way out that was my way out of that situation an opportunity to kind of start new start a new job somewhere reinvent myself and this time do a better this time be the the real me that I want to be that I want people to see and I was really in in that loop just job hopping, taking on challenges to get that I that to your point wasn't as as high the next time around. And that was my loop for a long time. I was the have this very impressive resume of having done a whole bunch of different stuff. And the reason I did is I just wanted to always reinvent myself new challenge. And I never got to this is it. I'm fixed. I feel great. Life is great. I'm just never got to that point.
Phillip K. Naithram 15:12
Yeah. Did you find yourself doing the the geographical cure that like, I'll be different over there? It'll be better over there. So you move from one place to the next 100%? How many? How many different places did you move around to?
Chris Mayo 15:23
I probably, I probably a new job every year and a half, two years and the new job was typically in a new state. So I've lived everywhere from Washington State, Texas, to Idaho, New York, Kansas, Missouri, New Jersey. Oh, yeah. Yep. had to
Phillip K. Naithram 15:41
do with those painkillers. And how much of that was going on when you really started to get into the thick of like your, you know, it starts with the internal self talk and the self criticism, the the pity parties, the feeling of uselessness and self pity, just kind of overwhelming. And, and that's where, at least that's where it started for me like, but how much of that was was going on at this time, when you were just continuing to do the next thing and the next thing or reinvent yourself the geographic cure for that feeling on the inside.
Chris Mayo 16:10
I just, I was pretty numb on the inside. And I had the awareness that hey, something's missing. Something's not right. I just didn't know how to have a conversation. Again. I was emotionally immature, was taught, you don't talk about stuff that's wrong, your feelings, you figure out problems on your own. So I was very, always very bottled up. And I can say, like, emotionally I was in pain. And I was exhausted. I would, you know, it'd be a struggle to get out of bed in the morning. Because it was like, Okay, why am I even waking up? Like, what's the point? What's my purpose, I'm kind of exhausted from chasing these accomplishments that now all of a sudden don't mean as much anymore. And I didn't have meaningful connections, meaningful relationships, you know, kind of goes back to my my background. So what it looked like for me is to try to fill the void, I would like buy the expensive motorcycle that was shiny and more than I really could afford, or I would, you know, spend money on watches and shoes and gadgets that I didn't really need. So that was what kind of my painkillers I would I have lots of acquaintances, very few friends, you know, 800 friends on Facebook, and maybe five phone numbers in my phone of people that I would actually talk to. When I show up to events, some that were mandatory, I show up, be the first to leave, because I just wanted to get out of there. I didn't want to be in a room of people who might find out that I'm not not that interesting. And I don't have a lot to say. And I don't want to really let people know about me. So I wouldn't show up to like fat class reunions. trau events, I always have some reason why I couldn't make it too busy, something in life came up. Because I just was like, so uncomfortable in my own skin. And I was so afraid that people would find out that I'm really not all that and now have problems and I'm flawed, and I'm weak. So that's that's what it looked like for me. And that really all came to a head for me in in 2010 it really it caught up and you know, we'll get into my my story next. I basically, again, bounced from job to job, not comfortable in my own skin, lots of shame and guilt. And I was a police officer at the time. One of my recent job hops to go do something more exciting. give myself an adrenaline rush, do something meaningful, help other people. I'd switch to the night shift. So I wasn't I wasn't really sleeping as much. I was doing more drinking partying with other police officers. I just ended a 10 year relationship and that was pretty messy. I was kind of couchsurfing with friends because I didn't we own a house together and it was a again a volatile kind of situation. And I went to a get together one one night drinking something upset me. And I had my because I was a police officer had my backup gun with me. And I ended up shooting myself in the chest right then and there that that night at this get together at an apartment complex. Obviously I was blessed to to survive. I missed my heart by an inch, basically collapsed my lungs shattered a rib on the way out and spent about two weeks in the hospital recovering. I really woke up next day in the hospital. And I really didn't know what had happened. It was something It was out of out of the blue. Again, I was I was impaired with alcohol, I had access to a gun, which probably is a whole other set of conversations or episodes in the future. And I didn't have any previous plans to kill myself harm myself. But but it unfolded in such a way where it was like the perfect storm of events at that time. So I told myself that this, this was an accident. So fully, fully in denial. I'm not a suicidal person, I'm not crazy, I was fully convinced that I would go back to work and heal up physically go back to work. And that's, that's where I was at mentally 100% denial. And that whole scenario actually caused me to pull into myself even more withdraw even more. So my, my ex, logged into my Facebook, and posted, hey, oh, my god, Christine shot herself or tried to kill herself or something like that. And so that was mortifying to me. And it, it. It was this odd phenomenon where people would reach out and say, Hey, I hope you're okay. I'm here for you. And at the same time, I just wanted nothing to do with anyone because I was so embarrassed that people knew that this had happened to me again, I'd never until within the last couple of years thought of it as I did this to myself, it happened to me it was an accident, was unplanned, that type of thing. And so I really withdrew even more became more stoic, I disconnected from friends never really talked about it always just thought of it as this was, this was an accident. You know, what I did spend some time in an inpatient mental facility a couple days after I was released from the hospital. And I really spent time just trying to get out of there. And then fully acknowledge this is, this is what I did, this is what happened. I said, what I needed to say, to get out of there, and just I wanted to get back to work. Again, I wanted to be busy, I didn't want to, like sit still and focus and dig into the hard stuff. So my life after that was, was pretty tough, you know, people that were pretty upset with me, I had the experience of seeing what a suicide attempt can do to friends family, how they can react to that how it can hurt people, it was really tough. And I just didn't even know how to process someone else's feelings, let alone my own. So again, it just felt forced me to even withdraw even more. And with across the country, we have moved from Idaho to Maine, in my standard pattern of start over, reinvent myself, pretend, you know, nothing bad can touch me. And I had the good fortune of meeting my wife Andrea here. But really, you know, I continued with those same pattern until I met someone that I felt like it connected with it was worth the risk of of being vulnerable. I remember, a few weeks after we met thinking, I think I could spend the rest of my life with this person. And I just can't, I'm too exhausted. And I just can't keep up this, like facade that I've been keeping up for decades. And I had kind of I still was recovering physically from my, from my injury. And I made I used words like I was shot, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Again, completely not acknowledging what what I had done to myself. And I got to a point where I thought well can't I have to be honest about this, I have to like say what happens, because I want to spend the rest of my life with this person. And I need to just take the risk of of sharing that. And I told her what really happened, she was amazingly supportive. And that really opened the door for me to start feeling connected to people. It was worth taking that risk and had a good outcome in my case, and it really opened the door for me to understand, like talking about it is is the right thing to do, acknowledging it, processing it, understanding where it came from. And that was really the first step for me to being where I am today, sharing your story and hoping to help other people. We actually had a conversation about this last night when I started off prepping for the podcast. And she said I really felt like you trusted me I felt connected to you. And so to get that feedback from someone that I cared about was was huge. For us first time that it really started to open up about that experience to someone other than a therapist per se.
Phillip K. Naithram 25:00
Yeah, how'd you guys meet?
Chris Mayo 25:04
I used to be embarrassed to tell people I made up the story about them. We met on the beach, blah, blah, blah, walking my dog we really met on match.com. And the brilliant thing is that I was Andrea's first and only date. So she swears results are phenomenal. But yeah, but that's how I met kicked it off. Right away. It was a cool story. And now we're at over 10 years together and just keeps getting better and better
Phillip K. Naithram 25:30
sees match dot coms like five star rating because yeah,
Chris Mayo 25:33
these results are not typical find.
Phillip K. Naithram 25:36
Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah. Well, you know, look, I really appreciate you putting it out there for us, like I said, and you know, the one thing that you mentioned before is what you were describing what loneliness feels like, I think a lot of people don't. I never knew what loneliness felt like, because I was always around people. But I was always performing for those people. I was always pretending to be what I thought they needed me to be like, I would make up whatever version of me I thought you needed me to be and then pretend to be that. So I would think up what I thought You thought of me. Exactly. And I never asked you what you thought of me. I came up with that on my own. So I would be in a room full of people but still feel lonely. And it was this this weird fear that if you knew who I really was, you would like me anymore.
Chris Mayo 26:23
totally relate to that. 100%. You know,
Phillip K. Naithram 26:25
it really was because I didn't like me, but it was I was I didn't realize out of habit, I was already going to find something wrong. Like no matter what I did, because I was so used to moving the goalposts, I would find a way that something was wrong with me or that I wasn't enough. I wasn't like that other person or when I get to that point, then I'll be good enough. But I just moved the goalposts even when I get to that point. And it was almost like I didn't I didn't understand selfish and self centeredness. I thought all I do is worry about what other people think, How can I be selfish, all I do is care about other people, everything I do is because of other people, like I'm constantly doing this for you. But I was doing it for their act for their acknowledgment of me, I want I didn't care. I cared about what they thought of me, I didn't just care about other people. And I would also decide for you what you thought, right? I decided for you that you wouldn't like me based on what I didn't like about me without giving you the opportunity to determine for yourself what you did or did not like. And so things like dating became a nightmare. Right? And it's what so we talked about, you know, I think with with the show, we kind of want to bring out the stories of what it was like what happened and what it's like now. And we talked about what happened. And in that event, and even even just the sort of minimizing that we do is like, Oh, well, I didn't really, you know, I didn't really mean that it was an accident, you know, and we justify it in many different ways. But, you know, you mentioned obviously, there's a ton of physical therapy, what other like what else was going on? What else helped you during that time to really kind of get out of yourself and really start talking about it even with, like a therapist or network or a group of people that? I think for me that helped me that helped give me a vocabulary to just describe what's going on. So I can connect with another person.
Chris Mayo 28:13
Yeah, really. So really, four things that helped me in the first first and foremost is therapy. And I think of therapy like dating your, it's going to be trial and error. The first one, I guess this is a bad example, Andrew and I are we're the first perfect match. The first therapist might not be the one that that you connect with that you feel comfortable, if that challenges you enough. So encourage people kind of shop around, find someone that that you feel like you can trust. So I've had a couple of different therapists across the years. The most recent one, over the last three years was the most impactful someone that specialized in working with first responders and veterans. So I had a good I was good background in the culture, the issues, the challenges, we have PTSD, trauma response, that type of thing. And really challenged me to, to get out of the mode of just wanting to be recognized for accomplishing stuff like me, I remember going to a session and I was like, Okay, what's the homework, let me get on it. If I can check these things off, we'll be good to go. She's like, that's not how this works. We're not doing homework, you're gonna you're gonna sit with this. And I was so annoyed. I was like, what is I don't have time to just sit with stuff like let's get into it. And she really pushed me to, to look at myself to own the the suicide attempt for what it was and understand how I got there. So I can't recommend therapy enough. And again, it's trial and error, different modalities. And it takes time for me it took over a decade to to get to a point where I could really unpack it and fully understanding and like no I'll do it and move forward in a positive way. The second thing that helped me a guy named Dave Wozniak, you might have heard of him before. They'd shared his story with us a couple years ago, I think via Facebook, or he had he'd done some podcasts. And I remember listening to the podcast, I was just blown away. Because I thought of babe as here's this, you know, basketball coach, she's got it going on. He's winning state championship. He's inspiring kids. He's married to intelligent, successful, beautiful doctor, he's got this family that he's inspiring, like, how in the world? Can that guy be the press? How can that guy think about killing himself, and he's talking about it, it just blew my mind. And that was the first inspiration, I had to share my story outside of my family, really just my wife, because I thought, you know, I just made this connection with this guy who shared that he's not perfect. He shared that he struggles with mental health and depression. His wife still supports him, his classmates and friends support him and tell him how much he's helping others. And so they really opened the door for me to be comfortable sharing a story and hope that I can help someone else. You know, I it was so interesting to find out that babes a mere mortal, just like I am, I had this image of of him on Facebook, and he had this whole other kind of thing going on inside of him that I never would have guessed. And a lot of the rest of us, you know, rest of our classmates have the same battles, the same struggles. And we see just a pretty stuff on Facebook and social media. And they don't necessarily feel comfortable sharing. But I really made an awesome connection with babe when he shared that. And it again, was another one of those connections with another person that I made. Like we really, ultimately we need each other. I got over the fact that we're the notion I had that you can trust people, especially those that are close to you. And I gave myself permission to be vulnerable, just like babe did. And I realized that you make more meaningful connections with people by opening up and saying, Hey, I'm, I'm not okay. And it's okay. Not to be okay. And I can help myself and help others by talking about it. Really asking for help, is is courageous, it's its honor, its integrity, it's all those words that we know very well as West Pointers, all those values that we espouse. Sounds familiar to us, right. But that's really what it is, is it's being courageous, it's setting the example. And it's opening the door to have conversations about things that used to be stigmas, or, or taboo. And we really can connect more with each other by being authentic and, and what we share, and who we share it with. And the reality is, not everyone deserves to, to get our vulnerability, and it's a risk to be vulnerable. And what helped me is understanding it's worth the risk in the way that I feel now. I wish I would have had the courage to acknowledge and ask for help and and say, I'm not okay, I didn't want to talk about it. 10 years ago, 10 plus years ago, so therapy, someone else like be sharing his story. And then really just slowing down, like, forgetting about what I need to accomplish, to feel a sense of self worth. So, you know, tuning into myself my own self talk, I was amazed that, how I talked to myself in my head. And you've heard like, if you wouldn't talk to your best friend like that, why are you talking to yourself like that? Like, oh, I can't believe that I did that I was so dumb. Like, I'm such, I'm so weak. The stories in my head, were kind of defining how I felt about myself. So understanding self talk, and how much it actually impacts you. Not even physically, psychologically, physically, was huge. So I would I tried breathing, breathing apps to kind of slow down. It was hard. Honestly, I thought I don't have time to sit here and breathe like I do this automatically. Why do I have to? This is dumb. Why am I focusing on this? You know, same with meditation. I was like, I don't think I'm doing it right. I can't focus it really took a while to be able to sit still and be and absorb and feel things are so important. So I used a couple tools like the Miracle Morning was a great like morning routine to to build some structure around self reflection, gratitude. Being in the moment, I have this app it's called mantra. We can program it to shoot out some I'm awesome messages throughout the day. And again, the first time I did that I was like, This is so not me. It's hokey, but you just have to, again, let yourself be vulnerable. Go with it. Be still be quiet and tune into yourself. And that can be can do so much for you. Yeah. And so self help gurus like Brene Brown is a shame researcher. She's a research professor at the University of Houston. She's an author and podcast host. And she specializes in shame, vulnerability, courage, her material was huge for me. Same with Esther Burrell. Really, Her work focuses on quality human connections, through really digging into that stuff. getting over being uncomfortable with learning more about that. feelings, emotions, learning words, other than happy, mad, glad, first off, just changing my vocabulary to learn these emotional words or feeling words, was a pretty big deal. And then the fourth part is just increasing connectedness with other people. So putting myself out there by joining teams, like Team Rubicon, which is founded by a veteran, there's a suicide story there with one of the founders. Being connected to people like me, veterans, people have had struggles. There's Team Red, White, and Blue. It's also a veteran focus more on like physical fitness, but getting people getting similar people together. And then just quality relationships, not quantity, but quality. Select people that surround yourself with people that accept you for who you are, flawed, imperfect, that you can have honest conversations with, that deserve to be close to you and deserve your vulnerability. So those are really the four things and that helped me get to where I am today.
Phillip K. Naithram 36:58
Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, that's so let's, let's recap the four
Chris Mayo 37:03
therapy. Made pozniak. But I'll say generally, other people sharing, being vulnerable, sharing their stories, right? Yeah. Then just like slowing down and tuning into myself,
Phillip K. Naithram 37:17
let's call that mindfulness, right, like a mindfulness practice, absolutely. Mindfulness,
Chris Mayo 37:20
and then increasing connectedness by being around people.
Phillip K. Naithram 37:26
Yeah, like a fellowship of actual like, but true fellowship of human connections. Like, you know, like, a lot of us, I knew a lot of people, but I didn't have a lot of friends. And I still don't write i, the people that are in that inner circle. These are people that know everything about me, I'm not withholding anything from them, because I'm not in fear what they think about me, and they reciprocate that and we actually know each other. More like more specifically, like with my sobriety, I have some guys in my life that know me. And the benefit to that is that they know when something's off. So if I start isolating, or I pull back, or I choose not to communicate it, they don't they're like, that's not how you normally are, or like, what happened with that thing. Whereas, you know, other people who barely know me, or it's a very cursory relationship, they would never think to ask, like, oh, it's not my place, I got guys that are all up in my business. And they don't. And I need them to be that way. And I'm that way with them and their wives, and we not in that, I find that that circle becomes smaller, but it's a more meaningful and more powerful circle. And to your point, you know, the mindfulness, the mind, and the body is all made of the same thing and not realizing that, you know, even that struggle of Am I doing it, right is part of the practice, right. And I love Brene Brown and John Bradshaw, and these people that write about shame it to your point, it gave me the vocabulary, and every time someone shares their story, I can see parts of myself in that story, even if it was totally different, they may not have, you know, they don't look like me, they didn't live where I live, they didn't drink and I did they didn't, I they're married, and I'm not but you know, some the way that they felt, I can relate to and that feeling of, I don't know, just a feeling of permission to start talking about what's going on with me to share about having a similar experience is, is really what I think is going to be the biggest I hope is the biggest benefit of this this podcast, because that's what I found to write like, someone is listening to you and understanding like, oh, like, I feel like that that, you know, that must be what this is. We're like we didn't even know like, I didn't know that it was okay. I thought if I couldn't solve my own problems, I wasn't good enough. So I had to go get better and solve my problem. Yeah, but if I could have I would have and I haven't so you know, and that's where, you know, the I Am statements understanding that I am is the most important statement we can make. Because that's how I identify myself and what I think is what I believe. So perception is reality. You know, looking at people on the internet, my perception is their reality, but that that's my perception. That's an not reality, right like preset, like an understanding that and then st likewise with the words I'm using if I'm, I mean I was so I thought I could self deprecate myself in a better behavior for a very long time. So I said I was I was as mean as I needed to be. And I would, I would call myself all kinds of things, I don't even want to build those synapses, right? Neurons that fire together wire together, so I don't even want to go back down there. But you know, you ugly, fat piece of shit, like get yourself in shape, you get workout, you fucking this and it just like in and I would railroad myself thinking that I would self deprecate myself in a better behavior. But all I did was start to really believe and reinforce those same ideas. And then I'm surrounded by what I think other people are saying about me. And then what I'm also saying about me, and it makes it very easy, you can cause a lot of harm to something you hate. So I made sure that I hated myself to make it easier to cause harm to. And when I was planning to kill myself, it wasn't, I was doing something good. I was relieving other people of the the problem of having to deal with me, your life is better without me here. And I'm doing this for you. It was always like, I'm doing this for you. Right. And that was a real good way for me to justify what I was planning to do and what I thought about doing all the cut, I mean, I was a cutter. And I it was punishment, like yeah, you wouldn't, I wouldn't have to do this to you if you were better, but you're not. So here we are. And just practice. And this is how we're going to do it. And it's just like, you know, it's so funny how, how deep in and I could have passed a lie detector test if you asked me to describe myself, and I would have told you what I thought and it would have been it was real. And it was true. Just not. It was real, but not true. Things can be real, but not true. That was something that I picked up. It's very real to me, it just isn't true. I believe it because I repeatedly think that because beliefs are repetitions of thought. And I continue to think the things that I say. So I have to act my way into a better way of thinking and that first action is speaking differently. And that's where the vocabulary came in.
Chris Mayo 42:04
And then I can't emphasize enough the importance of not not isolating yourself, like being being around people. You know, I'm, I'm in the best place in my life that I've I've ever been, I love it. And if they still were I find myself on in my head, like I'm not Something's off. I'm not sure what I'm feeling. And I know that's what I need to get out. I need to go hang out with friends and you go talk to people, I need to say to my wife, ham, help me sort through something. Help me understand what I'm feeling feeling off. And having confidence that that's a an open, honest conversation. And at the end of it, I'm good to go. But just to be connected to people. And I never would have thought that I was always like, I have to do this myself, I have to be strong. I don't need anyone I don't want to be vulnerable potentially get hurt. And it's it's just the opposite. You know, the people that don't support you are that look at you funny when you're sharing things, you don't need those in your life. Like, even if their family you know, I hate to say it, but surround yourself with people that Let you be you. And that that make you better?
Phillip K. Naithram 43:15
Yeah, that's what healthy boundaries are. Like, I didn't even understand what those were I thought boundaries meant separating myself from other people. But it's no, it's, you know, boundaries are for us. Right? If I can't, that's where I feel comfortable when I'm able to express what's going on with me. And if I can't do that around you, then I need boundaries, we can only spend so much time around each other and in certain environments, because otherwise, it's gonna affect me in a negative way, right? And yeah, to your point, like the human connection, it just continues to come back to that. And it's a what I found is that this recovery like this, this on the other side of it, like what it's like now, I thought I could win therapy or I would complete, you know, like I would get the certificate you've passed, you've been through the 12 step program. You've been through therapy, here you go, here's your degrees. And that's just not how it is. It's a program for living. And an ability to recognize when something is often us and then a new set of actions that we know we can take that work right when I'm free because I I can put on that nice little comfy sweater of depression anytime I'm ready, right or it just it shows up. But I know what it looks like I know what it sounds like I know what it feels like. And I also have I now have different actions I can take I can reach out to a person I can I have people in my life that can say hey, can we grab coffee or we can make plans with and they're not flaky. They show up where they're supposed to be not out of obligation but because they want to. And you know, it's just a different way to live. It's a freedom that I never thought. I mean, this was must be what the happy people that smile on TV feel like, you know, all the like, this is what they you know, that's really what I was. It's what I was chasing all the time actually, if I think about it, I'm being honest. Like all those gates in the next accolade or the next thing that's outside of me were the next, you know, attaboy from some by some stranger that really could care less. That's really what I was trying to say that sense of wholeness and connectivity and meaningfulness that, that I'm okay. And you're okay with who I am. Even though I have a long list of things that I think is wrong me you're not even thinking about those things.
Chris Mayo 45:21
I even was seeking approval from my therapist, like, to your point, how do I win therapy? How do I impress this person? Look how good I'm doing? Yeah, way to go. And, and I finally had one that was like, we're not doing this in a nice therapist way, you know, very grateful for her approach just really pushed me and challenged me and, and again, it's be being real with yourself owning your whatever that story is, whatever you're ashamed of. Whatever's in your past, you know, the reality is we have friends family that have like the quote unquote, perfect upbringing, and they still have challenges, they still have struggles. So whatever that is finances, infidelity, substance misuse, whatever that is. Own it, understand how you got there, be willing to ask for help and connect with people. And I guarantee you'll find people that have been there. They're currently there, you can support each other. We're all much more similar than we're different. We just have to be willing to take the risk to connect.
Phillip K. Naithram 46:28
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, if it has a name, it's been done before. And, you know, I find the greatest joy in helping another person that is just sharing my experience, right? I mean, you know, to keep it I gotta give it away. Right specifically like with with alcoholism, just share my I mean, you know, it's there's nothing like just hearing another person share their story, to just make me feel less alone, less connected. And I know how I felt the first couple of times I heard someone do that. So that's why I never closed my mouth when it's time to share because I, this might be I might be the first example of, of recovery are some you know, that someone heard that day, right? I could be. I could be the message they needed to hear that is, if I don't do that, I'm missing out on the opportunity to help someone. I'm also you know, someone's gonna, someone's gonna die, because like, I didn't, I didn't want to speak up. And I could have been, could have been the voice they needed that day. So I don't want to miss that opportunity.
Chris Mayo 47:28
Yeah. And then there's that nice side benefit of feeling like I have nothing to hide like, this is open book. This is me. And it's such a relief. It's so much less work just to be you than to build the walls and put on the show and the facade. It's exhausting. And it's so nice. For me personally, not to feel exhausted.
Phillip K. Naithram 47:54
Yeah, the feeling of fulfillment and just Yeah, content. Exactly. This is who I am. I'm not pretending to be the version of me that I thought you needed me to be. Yeah. Yeah, well, so. You know, before we before we wrap up here, like I guess, you know, people were listening to your episode, and they wanted to reach out to you. Or they had some more questions for you some of the things that work for you. Maybe they want to talk in private, how do they get in touch with you? What's the best? What's the best way to do that? Like, you know, someone wants to reach out and talk to you one on one.
Chris Mayo 48:30
Yeah, absolutely would love that I can have to share my email address, phone number. You know, I also also want to encourage people to look at resources around them, I'm not sure that everyone is aware of the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline. It used to be a 10 digit number up until just, I think, July of last year. So 988 is kind of the 911 of, of mental health. And it also is gets you right to the Veterans Crisis Line. So you dial 988 And then option number one is specifically for veterans. And then there are other resources for for people that aren't in crisis, but that may want to help or be in a position to help those that aren't. So there are things like safe talk, assist, living work, start. And I'm not sure if we can maybe drop links to those things in the podcast, but those are all amazing resources to really help break down stigma, understand, help with the lingo helped to be direct with someone you know, ask the question directly. Are you thinking of harming yourself of killing yourself? That's it's important to be direct, but not everyone's comfortable having that conversation or we're afraid that the answer is yes. And then we're like, well, now what do I do? Yeah, there's an awesome amount of resources out there. And I'm super healthy, happy to connect with people directly. Have conversations share more. Again, Having experienced what babe sharing your story with me has done for me. I would love to pass that on and help others.
Phillip K. Naithram 50:08
Yeah, no. And it's so important to just get the person to acknowledge it too. And to just say it, my experience has been the ones the ones talking about it are the ones you can help the ones that that aren't, you know, they're not the ones that have done it. It's the ones that aren't saying that the ones that are avoiding it, the ones that are that we just end up losing. So it's like get them to, like, call them to the mat. That's been an important thing. I needed it. I needed someone to tell what's going on. What are you trying to do? Like, you know what happened? Say it once you acknowledge it. You know, it has a name, it's no longer scary.
Chris Mayo 50:43
Yeah. There's, there are still a lot of misconceptions. And if you ask someone that it gives them the idea to suicidal ideations, but really there are a lot of studies that show that asking someone that's at risk, it actually opens the door to really understand what's going on and open the door to knowing how you can help that person. So there's permission for that contradicts that you're actually going to give someone the idea by asking.
Phillip K. Naithram 51:10
Yeah, the cats out the bag at that point. It's like alright, well, I guess I gotta do something about this. You can't. First time I said, I'm an alcoholic. First time I said, I tried to kill myself. It was like, alright, well, it's out there now. Because I could always tell the story. I could always lie, I could always justify and say, Well, I didn't really do that. I was talking about this, like, no. Like, you literally waited for everyone to leave the house and you set up some twine so you can hang yourself. That's what you were gonna do feel like that's what was happening here. And you know, once I admitted that, you know, acceptance is the answer is the first step to most things. I mean, like I admit that I was an alcoholic, I had to admit that I had problems I had to admit that things were going on. And I and that's where it all started. For me though. That was the beginning. Not the end. It felt like the end is like this. It's come to this was like, No, you're just getting started. Like you have no idea how good it gets after that.
Chris Mayo 52:00
I love it. That's the perfect way to to summarize that.
Phillip K. Naithram 52:03
Yeah, yeah. So Well, anyway, thanks so much for being with us here. Chris will link all of those resources to the show, you know, and everyone that's in the private community. I'm sure they have a way to get in touch with you if they want to just get some one on one and maybe they don't feel comfortable talking to other people kind of the way that you heard Babe and he was the one so All right.
52:31
Thank you for listening to the We got your six podcast where we are on a mission to end veteran suicide. If you're struggling with thoughts of hopelessness or suicide, please reach out to family friends, a classmate or call or text the number 988 for immediate help. We are here for you. And we want you to be here with us tomorrow. If you have a story to share on this podcast, please email us at admin at nine nine legacy fund.org. The we got your sixth Podcast is a production of the West Point Class of 1999 and the 99 Legacy Fund. The podcast is hosted by Philip K through and produced by Brendan Wallace with technical production by Scott Brown kowski. If you would like to make a tax deductible donation towards the 99 legacy funds mission to support the survivors of our fallen please visit WWW dot nine nine legacy funding.org to donate with duty in mind