Ali Abdaal 0:00
Hey friends welcome back to deep dive, what you're about to hear is a conversation between me and my friend Hannah Witton. Hannah is a Sex and Relationships educator who's been making online content for over 10 years. She's pretty famous for having very open and very taboo busting conversations around things like sex and disabilities, and love and relationships and stoners and all that fun stuff. And she's got a few popular series on YouTube, including Drunk Advice, the pleasure Trove and the Hormone Diaries. She's also written two books themed around sex education, and she hosts a weekly podcast called doing it, which I actually featured in a few months ago. In this conversation, we talked about all sorts of things, including how she first got the confidence to start making sex education content on the internet at the age of 19. We talk about the problem with sex and relationships, education in schools, and we touch on a bunch of stuff around how to build healthy romantic relationships around sexuality around gender, and we answer a bunch of questions that you guys sent in via Twitter and Instagram. I really enjoyed the conversation. And whenever I speak to Hannah, I'm always amazed as to just how open she is in talking about things that the rest of us would be would feel very uncomfortable talking about. And I think she does such a great job in kind of de stigmatising a lot of the baggage around the idea of sex and relationships, education. So that's it for me. I hope you enjoy this episode. So Hannah, welcome to the show. How you doing? I'm good. I'm really excited to be here. So you're five months pregnant now?
Hannah Witton 1:15
Yeah. How do weeks and months work? I think I might be six months. I don't know. I'm 26 weeks.
Ali Abdaal 1:20
26 weeks? Yeah. What? What's it been like?
Hannah Witton 1:24
I'm a mixed bag. If I'm honest, like the first couple of months was the hell on earth. And now, apparently, I'm in the like, good middle bit. But I'm coming to the end of the good middle bit, and then it could potentially get bad again. Yeah, like, I'm just enjoying this stage where I'm like, I feel human. This is fine.
Ali Abdaal 1:48
Let's see. I just, you had a few issues in the first trimester.
Hannah Witton 1:52
Yeah, I was. I just was really ill like fatigue, nausea, vomiting, all of the fun stuff that you get. And I base, I couldn't really work for two months. I was just like, a useless blob on the sofa. Just complete. Like, it just completely floored me. And I think at that stage as well, it's like really difficult. Because you're not showing you're not really telling people. And then yeah, it was just like, quite isolating as well, because you're just like, I am an ill person. And no one knows. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 2:28
So what do you do in that time? Watch a lot of movies
Hannah Witton 2:30
I did in the end, like, reach out and tell people like earlier than you're supposed to? Because I was just like, I just need company like, I'm like, I feel physically ill. And I'm also making myself mentally ill by not like reaching out to my support network. And so yeah, like, my parents came down to see me I had a bunch of friends like taking it in turns to like visit which was nice. Yeah, and then it kind of gradually gradually got better.
Ali Abdaal 3:02
Like one thing that I've heard people say is that, you know, you feel this like glow and you feel like the endorphins and it like feels feels great at some point.
Hannah Witton 3:12
Yeah, I don't know. I remember kind of like coming to the end of the first trimester and like, entering the second trimester and like, my bad symptoms, were gradually leaving me and I was like, when's this glow going to show up? Like, come on glow. But I don't I don't know. I think people just maybe say that, in comparison to like how shit they felt in the first trimester. Because I've noticed like for the last two months, I'm like, This is great. I feel like me again. But I don't know if it's like, a pregnancy glow. Or just like, at least I don't feel like that anymore.
Ali Abdaal 3:50
Yeah, yeah. The other thing I've heard some people say is that it feels like your body doesn't belong to you anymore.
Hannah Witton 3:56
Yeah, the I mean, the first trimester I was calling the foetus a parasite. My mom did not like that one was like, stop calling it a parasite. It's like it is a parasite. And then it got to the point like once it stopped, like literally sucking the life force from me, but I was like, Okay, you can be a baby or a foetus now like yeah, it is weird. You like something has hijacked my body. And apparently this is something that I wanted. Now it's like because I can feel the baby moving now and stuff so that is like, this, like, oh, that's like this like Alien inside of me. Like I just keep on thinking that scene from Alien. thing like a rips out from the inside of his belly. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's what I keep thinking like about to happen at any moment. Yeah, very strange.
Ali Abdaal 4:48
So like, one thing that always struck me about you. When I when I first came across your channel about four years ago, four years ago, is that you're very, very open about things that people will A lot of people would be uncomfortable about being so. Yeah. And you know, you've had this kind of internet plus writing career as like a Sex and Relationships educator for the last 10 years now. I wonder for people who might not be familiar with your story, how did how did we get here?
Hannah Witton 5:17
Yeah. How did we get here? So, yeah, cast your mind back to 2011 YouTube. And it's a very different kind of landscape. And I just was a fan of a lot of YouTubers, and was like watching a whole bunch of different vloggers and saw that they were all friends with each other. I was like, Oh my God, how do I become friends with them? Well, they're all friends with other people who make videos, so I should make videos. So that was definitely one of my leading motivations was like, infiltrating this friend group trying to make friends. I mean, success, though. somehow managed it. Like they don't know that I was just like, an absolute great. Mobile actually, now that they know me better now the problem? Yes, Hana. Play confirmed your widow. But yeah, no, I it very much just started. Like, there's this really cool online community. And I just want to be a part of that. And didn't start off making videos about sex and relationships that came kind of like, within the first year, though, so it was quite early days. And yeah, I just started making a bunch of videos for fun. Just connecting with all sorts of different people, like all around the world, online, like making internet friends and stuff. And it was yeah, it was just like a really exciting time. To kind of like have this weird hobby. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 6:47
What What were your first videos about? I don't even know, like, like lifestyle vlogs. And that sort of stuff.
Hannah Witton 6:55
Honestly, I don't even know. It's like the kind of YouTube where you're like, hey, I felt like filming a video today. And like, this is what's been on my mind or like, I like they would be videos that I would make. That would literally just be an entire video that was an inside joke with me and my internet friends. Like, oh, like, Okay, that was video.
Ali Abdaal 7:17
Yeah, because it was very, like, non mainstream thing back in 2011. Yeah, I guess sort of 2007 through 2012 sort of feels like a kind of the Golden early days where people were just doing stuff. Yeah, it wasn't such a kind of monetization machine behind the whole thing.
Hannah Witton 7:31
And a lot of the people that I aspired to, and a lot of the people that I watched online, were those like, initial like, 2007 2008, like vloggers. So I was very much like watching these people who had kind of like, what, you know, were the pioneers were the ones that were like, actually creating, like, what YouTube culture was at that time. So it was very much influenced by that, which was, it was very community based. And very much just like,
Ali Abdaal 7:59
that's all have fun. So you started off making these kind of random videos talking to your internet friends? Yeah. What what happened then? Like, how did the second relationship thing come into the into the mix?
Hannah Witton 8:09
Yeah. It's really tricky. Like, I sometimes I look back and be like, how did this happen? And then I think sometimes I'm maybe assigning too much meaning to like earlier experiences of like, ah, that is why I'm a sex educator now. But like, you also have to kind of, I don't know, except that it was just a bit random as well, rather than like there being any deeper meaning there. But there was like an American YouTuber who made a lot of videos about sex and did like sex education. And I watched a tonne of her content, and was just really inspired by it. It was where I probably got most of my sex education from, like, I was 19 at this time. And like, previously, like, hadn't really been scared of talking about sex. Like, I remember being like 14 in the class where you're like, supposed to put condoms on bananas, although we were given test tubes, which is what our school had access to. And like, no one in my group wanted to even touch the condom. And me 14 years old, just like God, like, give it to me, put it on the wrong way around and it just like starts rolling up and the nurses like, ah, goes on this way around. But you know, this is why you got to practice first. Better get it wrong on a test tube, and yeah, and then like, I remember when I was 17, like, I went to a Catholic college and we had a class on like, healthy relationships, because you still have to do like, Ra and stuff. And then I was like, You're gonna teach us about like, contraception and all of this stuff. And the teacher was like, It's against the Catholic Church. I can't tell you about those things. And I was like, we're all 1718 years old hair like we're all having sex. Just like, had a bit of a Moment, like, just being like challenging my art teacher. So all of that, that was kind of like the backdrop of then like, then I found the information that I was looking for online suddenly was like, oh my god, I wasn't taught this, like, this is all new information to me. And then it was like, I did kind of, like see an opportunity there, because there was nobody making sex ed videos in the UK. And it was something that I was really interested in, loved talking about, and also wasn't scared to talk about. And by that point, as well, like, I've been making YouTube videos for like, just under a year. And I've grown like a very small audience at that point. But you know, the demographics on YouTube. You know, it told me that they were mostly young women. And so I was like, I want to use this, I'll be very small platform for like, good and like, have a positive impact on this community. And so then I was like, I make sex ed videos.
Ali Abdaal 11:04
How small was the audience at the time? Can you remember? I was talking like dozens or hundreds of 1000s? Like, what's probably
Hannah Witton 11:12
more in the hundreds to 1000s. Oh,
Ali Abdaal 11:16
cool. So by like today's date, yeah, I think like, by today's standards, people are like, oh, you know, before 100,000 and stuff, it almost feels like, like, maybe not quite a thing, or something. But like, really the how you feel about the numbers really changes as you grow? Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton 11:33
I think I think when I started uni, I started uni. I don't know. So yeah, I might have had maybe like a few 1000 subscribers at that time, I think.
Ali Abdaal 11:45
And you decided, like, and I guess the decision at this time? Okay, we're talking sort of 2011 ish. Yeah, wouldn't have been like, Oh, I see an opportunity here to make money. Presumably, the partner programme
Hannah Witton 11:55
either started existing then or like, I knew that it existed then, because this was also around the time when it was like, Charlie McDonald, the first UK YouTuber to hit a million subscribers and like, he was clearly making a living from it, but like, it was still very rare. Yeah, at that point, like you didn't do it with a plan to start making money. Um, so I don't know I do remember like first signing up for like AdSense and there's a YouTube partner. But but it taking forever to even hit the threshold where you like, earn enough to like, get a payout. But yeah, no, it was It wasn't like a money thing. But I did see like, nobody is doing this in the UK. I could be that person. And like, did have an I did have an awareness at that point. That it would make me stand out, I
Ali Abdaal 12:46
guess. Yeah, yeah. So I guess it's like you found the sort of intersection of something that you enjoy talking about something that you saw get sort of a gap in the market for and maybe a maybe maybe a sort of, hypothetically, in the future, a sort of potential that this could be interesting, further down the line. But yeah, we know what it looks like, then I imagine you wouldn't have imagined yourself writing books or doing a podcast or no, yeah. No, being being a sex educator.
Hannah Witton 13:11
Yeah, it was very much like in those early days, I was just riding the wave. So I was just like, oh, this will be fun. We can like make these sex had videos. And then it was kind of more the, the reaction to it being so positive, and actually a kind of being like, I don't know, drawing a lot more people in and that kind of was like, oh, okay, I think I've, I've hit on something here.
Ali Abdaal 13:37
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Hannah Witton 14:50
had quite an open household like growing up. So like liberal parents, so that would have helped for sure. I have this like one memory from when I was About 12 That I'm like, if this is this, why I'm the way I am like, but also it could mean nothing. Who knows. So I'm sure we'll talk about this at some point as well. But I've got all sorts of colitis, which is a form of inflammatory bowel disease. It's a autoimmune disease. And I had a pretty bad flare up when I was 12 years old. And this was very kind of like, early days, at least from my understanding in medicine of like, oh, maybe mental health and stress and stuff can be related to like, gut issues that people have. Yeah. And I remember my doctor saying to me, like, do you open up to your friends? Do you share secrets, do you? Or do you kind of like, you know, do talk to your friends about how you're feeling and stuff? Because also you're 12? And you're like, on the brink of puberty, like going, you know, in high school and stuff? And I was like, no, because at that age, I just like bottled everything up did not share anything, like any crush that I had or like, like, this is mortifying, no one was, no one can know. And my doctor was, like, maybe think about, like, sharing things and opening up and like, you know, because I can help with like stress and stuff. And like, maybe there's a link between stress and like you having a flare up and things. And like, I think I just took those doctor's orders very literally. But that was obviously like when I was quite young. And so it was like, a bit of a gradual thing. But I just remember like, Ben around like 1314 years old and like having friends over after school and showing like the boys in my class how tampons and pads worked by like, running them under like the water tap and being like, look how it expands. And that just being like something that I was like, very, like compelled to be like the boys would be like ERP periods, or like, what's the term bond? And I'd be like, well, just becoming a complete Hermione honestly, like, let me show you. So I've like always been like, teaching my peers about these things as I've been learning them. That's so
Ali Abdaal 17:06
great. Like, I was just thinking like, I think the first time I saw a tampon was when I was like 25, and working on obstetrics and gynaecology. Wow. And I just did not have it was like, you know, we'd have because it was the it was the kind of early pregnancy you
Hannah Witton 17:20
never saw, like any of your mum's period products around the house. Wow.
Ali Abdaal 17:24
I mean, I saw that she would put the VT is it like this in the?
Hannah Witton 17:29
I don't know, Vita hair removal? Oh, maybe
Ali Abdaal 17:31
it's this purple package of stuff that occasionally would happen like the Asda grocery thingy. Okay, maybe they didn't really think anything of it. But then it was when you know, we were kind of dealing with ladies who would have early pregnancy bleeding. And, you know, I remember my first weekend, one of them was like, oh, sorry, I've, you know, I've run out of pads. Could you you know, give me something? And I was like, That's a good question. So I went to the desk, Julie, this lady's thermal pads, and she was like, oh, le bless. And she was like, she showed me where they were, like, right, here are the sizes. This is the big one. You know, this is the maternity one. This is a special one. Honestly,
Hannah Witton 18:11
yeah. This is honestly why I'm just like, so passionate about like, not having not like separating, like the genders when like doing sex ed and just being like, girls in one boys and others, obviously, also non binary and trans people exist. Yeah, but then, like, if you're just going to be talking about periods to the girls, like, boys will, like, need to be aware of this stuff. At some point, even if they're not going to be an obvious and Guinee doctor like it's, it's honestly, baffling. Yeah,
Ali Abdaal 18:43
it was like the the sorts of questions I was asking. Like, I think after my first week, I was like, I just sat down with an essay that was like, Okay, I have a bunch of basic questions. What is a normal amount of bleeding when you're having a period? Okay, like, what is a bad amount of bleeding? I was like, Okay, if someone is I don't know early pregnancy, like how much blood is too much? Yeah, cuz you just you just don't have any kind of conception of it at all. Yeah, and I guess when you when you're beating even a small amount of blood, like on the sheet looks like a bloodbath. Yeah. And they will come in and be like, Oh, that's nothing.
Hannah Witton 19:10
Yeah, cuz it might just play the tiniest amount but like on a sheet, it looks
Ali Abdaal 19:15
like oh my god, like this is this is a nightmare and, and the things we ended up end up saying to the patients after, after, after a couple of days on the water, I was like, you know, blood clots the size of a fist are concerning. Less than that. Yes. Pretty normal. Don't worry about it too much. Fist foot. Yeah. It feels like a tap that's turned on. They're just one stop. That's bad. That's not normal. So yeah, please call an ambulance. That happens. That kind of thing. It's just like never know. Okay, so you're kind of 1920 ish at this point. Yeah, you know, you're like the the other weird thing about this is that I imagine most people in the position of like, I'm interested in this thing. Would not then jump to let me teach other people about it. because they will have a sense of, but I'm not an expert. I'm not a gynaecologist. I don't know this, that and the other how, why would anyone listen to me how to be qualified to do this? I don't have a degree, all that stuff.
Hannah Witton 20:09
Honestly, I feel that more now than I did then. Okay. And I always forget the name of it, you probably will know, what's that like? Like, some sort of graph thing or the
Ali Abdaal 20:21
Dunning Kruger effect? Yeah.
Hannah Witton 20:22
I think what happened to me was 100%, the Dunning Kruger effect. So for anyone who doesn't know, basically, at the beginning, you like, you're getting to know a new subject matter. And you're like, your confidence is super high, but your competence is actually really low. And then the more you gain competence, you actually lose all of that confidence. Because you suddenly start to realise how little you really do know. And then fighting through that and actually persevering through that is what then makes you an expert. Hopefully, at the end, I think I'm in the middle, still somewhere very much. But yeah, no, 100% it was just like complete balls to the wall confidence.
Ali Abdaal 21:10
What sort of videos were you making back in the day, like,
Hannah Witton 21:13
so it was actually with, with a friend of mine? Because I was like, Oh, that needs to be a guy in the video as well. So that, I don't know, I just for me, it was, I think maybe that was a little bit of me being like, I can't do this by myself. I need like another voice. He was by no means an expert as well. He was just like, do my friend who had good chemistry on camera, like good hosting videos and stuff. And I wrote all of the videos. Yeah, so we did like a series of five or six videos together. And then like, they just started doing really well. And we weren't living in the same city. So we could only film together. Like when I was visiting London. And so it just kind of like naturally happened that like, I just carried on making my own videos about it as well. And so yeah, so what sort of topics was it? I don't know. Like, I think we started with contraception. We did stuff about puberty. Virginity body image. I don't know. I honestly haven't gone back and rewatch those. They're probably like, so bad anatomy. We did just like, literally just going through like,
Ali Abdaal 22:21
and what was the response when when he started doing this? And just really
Hannah Witton 22:25
positive, just like those people being like, Oh, my God, thank you. Like, like, I didn't know that. Oh, this is so interesting. Or like, nobody ever talks about this, like, you made me feel less alone. Or you made me feel normal, or? And then also, obviously, like, lots of follow up questions as well. And stuff.
Ali Abdaal 22:42
Yeah. So that that would have been sort of like, seven, eight years ago, then. So what what what has what happened to your kind of career? Kind of since since then?
Hannah Witton 22:52
Yeah. So yeah, I was doing YouTube just kind of like as a hobby. And then it kind of become like, became a part time job whilst I was at uni. So I did. So I started making YouTube videos before I went to uni. So then spent that three years making videos and doing my degree, although like, was not consistent at all with the videos, because degree stuff just would take over. I honestly have no idea how like you or like, other study tubers, like did it when you have like, but I guess if you're making your channel about your studies, like, easier, it makes it a bit easier. And I was not. So well, no, there was some crossovers, actually, because I did history, and I did a lot of modules and my dissertation on sexual history. So I did kind of like, try and like bringing some of that stuff that I was learning into my videos as well. And then graduated, moved to London. At that stage, it was like, Okay, this is a part time job. I'm like, every month or two, I'm travelling to London for like events, whether they be work stuff, or social stuff with like, all of these connections and people that I'm meeting, and I was earning some money from YouTube, but not like not a full time thing at all. But I was like, I'll go to London get a part time job. And like, Yes, see what I can make happen. And yeah, I worked part time for just under a year, actually. I think it was like 10 or 11 months of doing YouTube still part time until I got to the point where I was like, okay, I can I can do this full time now. But as soon as I finished uni, it was like right one video a week. Let's go
Ali Abdaal 24:38
nice. So what were you doing? Like what was your main main main gig as it were?
Hannah Witton 24:43
Yeah, so when I first moved to London, I got like one of those jobs with a catering company where you just like pick up shifts here or there like doing your thing. I think I've still got like the bottle opener for from that. Also like some very short you have to like buy your own uniform and like black trousers and I ended up like, and I didn't know how to sew. And I was also like, crashing on like family friends, like spare rooms for a while before I found my own place. And I was like, I need to turn up these trousers because they're like, way too long for me. And I think someone on Twitter suggested stapler, staple, staple together. It was great. But I only did that for a little while, because then I got a job with this youth charity, who I'd previously made some videos for. In the past, so I already had a relationship with them, I moved to London, and they were like, Hey, we are looking for like a video assistant, basically. So they already had like a multimedia producer for a lot of the content that they produced. And then I came on board to kind of work with him, and write and host YouTube videos for them. And it was a youth charity. And so a lot of the videos that I wrote and hosted for them were about sex or about relationships. But then also were about like, mental health, work, school, all of that kind of realm of things. And then I worked with them for about 1011 months.
Ali Abdaal 26:16
Okay. Yeah. And so at the point where YouTube was able to give you a full time income, what was it like making that decision to be like, Hey, I'm gonna do this internet thing. Yeah, it
Hannah Witton 26:25
was hard. I like talked to a lot of people. So I was working for that charity two days a week. And I was doing all my other YouTube stuff. And it was the thing that made me realise, oh, maybe it's time was because I needed those two days. In terms of like, to get all of my YouTube work stuff done. I was like, I'm, I'm like, full, like, I'm at capacity now with everything, because like, a lot of the YouTube stuff just kept picking up and kept getting busier and everything. And I was like, you know, the charity Job didn't actually pay very well, in terms of a day rate. And I was like, I need I need this time back to work on my own stuff. Yep. Yeah, I'm just like, thought about it, and talk to people about it for a while and then took the plunge. I think it was, I think I like handed in my notice. And then left, and then went to VidCon, and then came back. And then it was like, let's go.
Ali Abdaal 27:28
Were you concerned at all about the YouTube thing not being a quick real job? And what what is your career gonna look like? 10 years down the line, I'm certainly making videos like all of those fears that people have as they switch from a, quote, proper job to a quote, like, not proper job.
Hannah Witton 27:45
I don't know, because I never, I don't really ever feel like I had a proper job. Yeah. Because even what I was doing for that charity, like I was a freelancer, I and I was making YouTube videos, but just for somebody else. Which, if anything, was proof, very early days, for me that like, this is a skill that other people also want to like and will pay you for. But I think I have more of those fears about like the longevity of it now than I did then. Like, at the beginning, I was just like, I'm riding this wave, like, this is going well, like, why let's not like freak out, let's just keep going like build on this momentum, just like I'm riding this wave, and I'm having a great time. But also, it was just me then, whereas now it's like, I rent a studio space, I have a team. Like, there's definitely a lot more of like the business element to it now as well. And maybe you can relate to to this as well. And then also like having a baby and like, I'm like, you know, at the beginning, I was like in my early 20s had no dependents had savings. So I was just kind of like your early 20s is when you move to London and you take risks. That's what you're supposed to do. Right? So it didn't, I didn't feel any fear there. Because I was like, if this all goes tits up, like, that's normal. I'm 23. Like, who cares? Whereas now it's like, oh, I'm about to turn 30 I'm about to have a baby. I have a mortgage. I have a team, I have a business that has a lot of overhead costs. So actually a lot more fears about the longevity now than then
Ali Abdaal 29:37
for sure. Yeah. So on the point about your 20s being for experimentation. I think that's that itself is kind of a novel thing depending on on I guess, for medicine, in particular your 20s or for setting yourself up for success in banking and consulting and law. Your 20s are like hey, let's hustle, hustle hustle so that when I'm 30 I'm I'm a partner McKinzie or whatever people do. And a friend of mine is also was also medical Meyer, who recently quit medicine to pursue a job in tech, put out a tweet that went viral the other day, which is basically like, you know, when I left medicine at 26, I was really scared because for the last 10 years, I had a very clear path. And now it feels like all this uncertainty, but then I realised actually my 20s are for experimentation. That tweet went viral on people like was, I think the idea that you can actually just like, screw around doing stuff in your 20s. And it's actually okay. Yeah, is actually fairly novel to a lot of people.
Hannah Witton 30:32
Yeah, I think we put a lot of pressure on, on people to make a decision about the next 10 years of their life really early like, and you'll notice like, from doing medicine, a uni so like, at some point, you decide you want to become a doctor, okay? You have to do medicine at university. Okay? In order to get into uni to do medicine, I need these eight levels in order to get into college to do those eight levels. I need these GCSE. At what age do you make a decision about what GCSE is? You're doing you're 14? Yeah, you're 14. And you made like, all of those decisions for the next 10 years of your life. Like, we specialise real early in the UK, in terms of like, those decisions that we're making about our studies and our work and career and stuff. I didn't have that because I went the humanities route. But yeah, I do think that there is a lot of pressure to like, know what you want to do. And then also, like, as a culture, we, we kind of idolise and like, look up to people who are really successful, very young. We're like, Oh, my God, look at what they've achieved. And they're only 21. Like, isn't that incredible? But then you find yourself actually comparing yourself to a lot of these people who, you know, have had great success and whatever it is, they're doing, super young. But, and we have this obsession with youth as well, I think. And I can't think of any, like, examples off the top of my head that I know are true, but I feel like, I feel like something like Margaret Atwood didn't start writing until she was in her 40s or something like that, but maybe not her. Yeah, maybe not that specific example. But like, I think, yeah, there's, there's, you've got more time than you think.
Ali Abdaal 32:19
Yeah. Yeah, there's a bunch of examples in tech in particular, that they get thrown around that, yes, there are some, you know, 19 year olds find funding stripe or Facebook or whatever. But actually, the guy who founded LinkedIn was in his 40s. Jeff Bezos was in his 30s when he started Amazon, like there are people in their 50s starting these companies as well. And like, it's, it's not a race. It's not. And, you know, this is one thing that I find a lot of people do in our, you know, YouTuber Academy, where, especially if it's older people comparing themselves to the younger kids. And it's like, if you're, you know, if you're in your 40s, and you've got a family and a mortgage and a job, there's just no way you can give the amount of time to YouTube as like a 19 year old at uni, studying psychology, who has one extra week, he's just banging out the content. If
Hannah Witton 33:01
you're over 60, and you're retired, maybe you've got loads of time to dedicate to YouTube, like amazing. Chelsea Fagan, who's the CEO and co founder of the Financial Diet, she like, often talks about how I think on her instagram or like on social media in general, she basically only follows influencers who are over 50 Because she's just like, we're a youth obsessed culture. And for her, like, she's in her early 30s. And she just wants to see older women thriving because we also as a culture, kind of like, you know, you're a woman who gets to a certain age, and suddenly you become completely invisible to the world. And so for her, she like, is actively seeking out these, like, positive examples of older women just like thriving and like doing their thing. And I love that.
Ali Abdaal 33:53
That's brilliant. That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. I think like, what one of my kind of fears about the future as far as like, what am I gonna be doing? When I'm 40? Back when I was big on the medicine thing was like, the answer is easy. I'm going to keep on doing the same thing where
Hannah Witton 34:07
I honestly cannot see past. April right now in terms of my life. Yeah. Right. So there's a Twilight book behind you. So I need to bring that up, because you'll find a twilight course. Right. So there's I don't actually know if this happens in the book, because I've only I've not read them in a while. But I recently rewatched all the films. Yeah. And there's that scene when Bella gets pregnant. And Alice, who's the one who has all the visions? Yeah, stuff just goes. I can no longer see her future. That's how I feel. It's like I used to plan like, I was like a five year plan kind of guy. You're
Ali Abdaal 34:45
referencing one of the videos about two years ago? Yeah, my five.
Hannah Witton 34:49
Okay, I love that shit. Yeah. And then got pregnant. And then it's like, beyond the due date. I'm like, What is life? It's just like, Yeah, I have no vision. Yeah, I have no vision. Like, I'm very excited for it. But I'm like, can't plan can't? Who knows? Yeah. So I feel like Alice Cullen when Bella gets pregnant, like I cannot see.
Ali Abdaal 35:11
So like, pre pre baby showing up. Oh, how were you thinking about, like the longevity of your career and what you would be doing? X years down the line?
Hannah Witton 35:21
Yeah, I feel like I was always grappling with like, these two sides of myself. One is the can I swear, please? Fuck this, I'm out. Peace out, I'm going off. I'm living a quiet life. Being a public figure is not for me, cannot handle this. And just kind of being like, I've done my time as an Internet person. And then the other part of me, that is just like, so excited by sex and relationships, and like, educating people and like talking about these topics, and also so excited about the internet, and YouTube and social media and like building a business and like expanding my team and doing exciting projects, and just being like, Oh, what are the possibilities? So like, these two things I'm always like, constantly battling with and I feel sorry for my friends, because sometimes they just get the like, I can't handle it anymore. Like, just, I just want my partner to like, keep getting promoted, and like, earn loads of money, so I can become a housewife. And then the next thing that they know is they see me like advertising for a new job role. And they're like, Hannah, like, didn't you want to quit a week ago? And I'm like, now I'm hiring somebody new. So yeah, that's something that I'm always like, yeah, I don't know, just like have this like, in a tug of war going on. I'm currently in a good phase with it, though, because I have just recently hired someone new. And so I'm in that like, I don't know, just like, the possibilities, isn't this great. And also, like, with the baby coming, it's very much kind of like, I'm trying to set my business up in a way that actually allows me to step away from it a bit more. And because I'm not gonna be able to work full time. Like, if we're just being realistic about it.
Ali Abdaal 37:24
What is it like being a kind of public figure, internet, celebrity type person, specifically in the realm of sex and relationships?
Hannah Witton 37:33
Yeah, it's a, it's a weird one. One of the things that maybe I don't know, like, turns on the day of what bothers me the most, when you are somebody who like, you know, you're saying I'm very open. And I talk about a lot of these kind of, like taboo topics and stuff. And so, a lot of the time, people like open up to you in return, which is an absolute, like, privilege, because like, people are like being vulnerable. But sometimes, like, you just you don't have the emotional capacity to take on other people's, like, emotional dumps sometimes. Then there's also the like, having to be really clear about boundaries, in terms of like, what is an okay question to ask me, versus what is like, you've overstepped the line like, just because I shared information about this one thing doesn't entitle you to, like, make a comment about this thing, or ask me a question about this other thing people feel like they kind of, and I think this is also like a being a woman on the internet thing as well. But like a woman who talks about sex on the internet kind of then just gets exacerbated a bit. Where just people are like, feel very entitled to you and to your body and to like, make comments on it.
Ali Abdaal 38:45
What does that look like? I just can't really imagine like, yeah, I guess in the world of productivity, YouTube, but it's a very different kind of,
Hannah Witton 38:54
you know, comments on your hair, your bed. You often talk about your like, Jim shark athlete.
Ali Abdaal 38:59
Yeah, sometimes only the biceps are looking good. Or oh, I prefer only with or without the beard or keep the glasses on, mate. Oh,
Hannah Witton 39:06
yeah. And a lot of it is just like, either from just kind of like older creepy men. Oh, it has this tone of like, oh, this is like, unsolicited advice. Or it's just like, completely irrelevant, but I'm just gonna comment on your body. And I remember like, because I was really open about the fact that me and my partner were trying to conceive for a while before we did get pregnant. And I remember saying, I was like, I'm going to share stuff when I'm ready. So it's not going to like these videos, and these updates aren't going to come out in real time. So in the meantime, I would like appreciate it if you didn't speculate. Yeah, like, no comments being like, Oh, you made Are you pregnant? Like you look a bit pregnant or like who is that a sort of bump or things like that like, cuz that can be really hard to read, if you're trying to conceive, and you're not pregnant, right? And also, it's just weird. Like, why do people feel like they can say that to random strangers on the internet, it's so weird. But most of my audience are like super on it. I think also like, being someone who talks about sex and relationships and like consent, obviously being such a huge part of that, having consensual interactions with your audience online, where I say, this is a boundary of mine, and then going, Yep, got it. Noted. So yeah, I do, I do feel like I'm very lucky in that sense, because me and my audience are so used to having conversations about consent that when it comes up in terms of our relationship, they're very respectful and just like, get it. But then you do get these people who just come in from the side sometimes, like, but then it's quite nice, because then you see, like, clearly some, like more regular members of my audience like swooping in and being like, well, actually, excuse me, that's not very nice, like don't say, yeah, so that's kind of like one area of it. And then another is just like the constant anxiety and constant like pressure of like, am I saying the right thing? Am I good enough, and this kind of like, and I mean, good enough, in terms of like, your intrinsic, like, morality as a person. Because when you're talking about a lot of these issues, like they're, you know, that they're part of, like social justice, and they tie into so many different aspects of people's life, whether that's like gender, sexuality, race class, like disability, like all of these things. And I don't know everything about everything. And so there is a lot of like, my saying the right thing, like, and I do think that that comes from a good place. And like more people should maybe be a bit more on it with like, the language that they use and like, understanding all of these different perspectives. But then I think there's a line where it actually is like, detrimental, where you're just like, you're absolutely exhausted by it. And you're like, you're trying to, you're trying to predict other people's reactions to things before they've happened. And you're like losing sleep over people's reactions to things before they've happened. And just like, sometimes, a lot of it comes down to like self censorship as well, because you're just like, it's not even worth me saying that. I don't I don't even know if I've got like examples off the top of my head.
Ali Abdaal 42:45
Are we talking like, oh, I said, Women in that video rather than people with uteruses. Or it's as Yeah, well,
Hannah Witton 42:51
that's something that like, I've I have learned, and that comes quite naturally to me now. But I don't know, I think, I don't know. It's honestly hard to like, even think of examples off the top of my head. But like, I want to set a good example. And I think sometimes there's that like, you know, the classic, like, with great power comes great responsibility. And I think sometimes you get you hit a point where you're just like, this responsibility is crushing me. And actually, like, I can't handle it. And yeah, it's interesting one.
Ali Abdaal 43:32
Yeah. So it sounds it sounds like kind of one major kind of strand of concerns his response from the audience. But even if, for example, you turned comments off, or just chose not to look at comments, right? Yeah, you've still got this sort of crushing weight of responsibilities, because the the area that you're talking about, it's an it's a non trivial, it's like a core part of loads of people's lives. And I genuinely take
Hannah Witton 43:55
it so seriously. Yeah, because I know, like, how important and how impactful. These, like subject matters are on people's lives. I do like to, very much like, one of the things I say, in a lot of my videos is how, like, we're all about tonal shifts here. So we can get like really quite deep. And talk about something that's really quite heavy and serious. And then like I I also will make like jokes about things or like talk about something that's quite light hearted, but still about like sex and relationships and stuff. Because I think that's really important to kind of, like, have that balance with like, the joy and also the like, This is fucked up. And we need to, like, change the world. But I like to kind of, I don't know, voice that out loud of just like, I'm, like, I'm acknowledging that I'm doing a tonal shift here. Rather than just doing it and it kind of like, I don't know, people just kind of be like what just happened?
Ali Abdaal 44:57
Okay, so if you're talking about something serious and heavy and then your segwaying into something a bit more lighthearted. That segue can seem jarring.
Hannah Witton 45:04
Yeah. And so I want to kind of be like, I'm aware that this is a tonal shift. I don't know, I feel like so much of this is like, so nuanced. And it's like, you have to like, experience a lot of it to be like, Okay, I get it. I get like, a lot of the pressures there. And I think it's like, a lot of being a woman on the internet. But then also, like, if you're in the like, social justice space, as well. There's a lot of just like, worrying about, oh, I have to make a comment on everything, which is something that I've very much been able to let go of. Like, there was a time when I would just, I would get messages from a lot of people being like, won't you talking about this thing? Why aren't you talking about this thing? Why are you saying something about this thing that's just happened? And I'm like, I'm not a news outlet? Yeah, so it's navigating a lot of these things, but they're just kind of like, it's, it's all like it drips in? That's the thing. It's always like, small little, yeah, constantly.
Ali Abdaal 46:08
There are a lot of very good causes out there in the world. Hmm. And each of those, and there are a lot of people out there in the world. And there is not a clear mapping as to you know, all of the people care about this one cause and for the people that care about their their particular cause, like 123 causes, those are like absolutely huge deals, and there's nothing more important than climate change or than animal rights, or then as Robert Palatine, or then Yemen war or whatever. And so when something comes up that hits that particular thing, other people in the world would accept that. Obviously, this is an issue. But it's not one of the core issues that I spend large amounts of my time thinking about. And so when it like, you know, for me, I'm not a political or human rights commentator. And so when people are like, your silence on the Kashmir issue is deafening. Like, no one needs sorry. I do not need to opine about things that I literally have no knowledge of. Yeah. And you know,
Hannah Witton 47:07
any good, but yet, you can't say something about everything. Yeah. And yeah, I just kind of like, I've got the things that I talk about. And even within my subject matter, I also just like, can't know everything that's going on. And then also like my position like as a, like a white sis straight woman as well. Like, sometimes it's like not for me to be the spokesperson on certain topics or issues. Yeah, that's one of the things that I love about like, having a podcast as well just means that I can be like, Hey, you talk about this thing. Let me show this to someone who Yeah, let me share my platform, so you can talk about your experiences and stuff. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 47:51
Changing gears bit? What do you like? I just have so many questions about the sex relationship. Um, but and I imagine, for example, sex education in the UK, I would hope is better than it was 10 years ago. What are the what are the kind of core issues that you see with how young people are educated or otherwise about sex and relationships? Oh,
Hannah Witton 48:13
okay. So that's a bit tricky, because I'm mostly focused on my adult sex education, but I can I can give it a shot. Yeah, it probably is better. It also is like a school to school thing, right. But in the last couple of years, relationships and sex education has become compulsory in schools in England and Wales, I believe. So that's a thing. However, that's mostly come into effect during this time of pandemic. So it's basically just like something else for teachers and schools to tick off their already massive list of things that they have to do. On top of then, like, dealing with, you know, doing like online classes and stuff. So it's not like been the best time for schools until it could be a teacher at the moment. And even even without a pandemic. It's all well and good, having, like, relationships and sex education being compulsory, but then if you're not like, giving schools more funding, and also like, training teachers, in like, how to talk about these things, because teachers are people too. And often they're like, in their early 20s, and also will not have had good sex education. So like, you know, you've got to train the people who are going to be talking to young people on these things. So that's, that's my whole spiel about that thing. And so I think what I don't Yeah, is tricky in terms of like, the, the tough things that young people are dealing with. I'm not entirely sure of like, the current state of sex ed in schools, but if it's anything like mine was it's still very much like preventative kind of approach, as in so it's like how to not get pregnant, how to not get STIs how to not get raped, like, all of those kinds of things rather than, like, how to have a healthy relationship, how to how to, you know, like, how to figure out, like how to like find your own pleasure and how to enjoy sex, how to enjoy relationships, how to communicate about all of these different things. And, and then also the how to get pregnant if you eventually want to get pregnant because school led me to believe that it would be easy. Not the case. Not the case. For me, anyway. Yeah, I understand why they like kind of do that, like fearmongering thing, because like, especially when you're younger, you're like, super fertile. And, you know, it could just only takes one sperm but also like, fossa, you know, could also take millions until you get that.
Ali Abdaal 51:13
Perfect. Yeah, it's, as you were saying that it kind of reminds me of the shift that kind of happened in sight in psychology as well. Where?
Hannah Witton 51:22
Oh, yeah, from like, treating, like, disease to kind of like positive psychology was like,
Ali Abdaal 51:28
live a happier life and how to take care of your mental health rather than Okay, now you've got depression. Let's figure out what SSRI works.
Hannah Witton 51:35
Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 51:36
Yeah, it's I guess it's such a big topic area. How do you even begin to go about like, I suppose if you're talking talking about sex and relationships, II stuff is sort of like one one issue at a time. Oh, like,
Hannah Witton 51:49
it's so hard to do one issue at a time, because they all just kind of like, yeah, they all connect with each other. And so, I mean, for the sake of YouTube, and like making, you know, like packaging up a video, in a way that is like, YouTube algorithm friendly, like, you kind of, you do have to kind of, I don't know, figure out what your angle is going to be. But if you're like, you know, if, for my case, where I'm like making so many videos and making so many podcast episodes, it will be like, Oh, this thing bla bla bla bla, yeah, we went into more detail about that in that podcast episode, or like in that YouTube video, like, we went through that. So I don't like so you're just constantly like referencing all of these other things that you've made, because you're just building this massive library of information. But yeah, we're on the like, the school thing again, though, so I, I interviewed someone for the podcast, who works with Brooke, who I'm ambassador for, they're like, A, they're a young person, sexual health charity. And we talked about the new guidance, like as it was coming in. And she was like, oh, yeah, I read, I read through all and I did like a, you know, like, you know, Command F or like Ctrl F like to search for, like certain words, the word pleasure was not in there at all. And then, and then one of the other big issues is things like LGBTQ plus inclusion. So it's like, it's in the guidance that your curriculum has to be LGBT, inclusive, but then it's also very open. It's just very vague and like, open to interpretation, because like, faith schools can kind of do what they want. And then also, it's like, does it have to be inclusive in terms of like you do one class on LGBTQ plus people exist, or as it should be done, where it's like, integrated, and every single lesson that you do, and with all of the topics that you talk about? It's all LGBT inclusive, you know, it's so yeah.
Ali Abdaal 53:52
Yeah, I guess it's It's hard enough for a teacher in their early 20s to talk about Yeah, the basics. And then when you add in the kind of complicating factor as it were, of LGBTQ plus on all of the things, you then end up with this kind of very nuanced, almost mess of stuff. Where Yeah, with someone who's, I don't know, history graduate who's never really had sex education before in their life is like, Well, how do I deal with deal with this? For like, you know, teenagers that are not ideal target audience, we
Hannah Witton 54:25
all have our own baggage. Yeah. So like teachers have their own ideas and values and beliefs about sex. And they also probably, they might even be holding on to some misinformation that they've learned, like, what a lot of that like comes from. Just like how the mainstream media talks about sex as well, like so much. That is where we get so much of our education from when we're not actually like, being taught about it in like a structured environment. And so like And then also like loads of people just feel awkward talking about sex. And so like, then you get people who don't feel comfortable talking about sex, don't know how to talk about sex. And then suddenly, like, a 14 year old is asking them like, miss what's the blowjob? And they're like, oh, yeah, because a lot of it is not just about what you're teaching, but like how you're teaching like, are you are? Are you visibly uncomfortable when you're delivering this like, sex ed lesson? Are you? Yeah, can the can the young people pick up on the fact that like, Yeah, are you like, are you giving off vibes that that it's, this is not something that you're supposed to be talking about? Are you giving even if you don't say sex is shameful? Are you giving off these vibes that you might think that? Because you're like, feeling awkward about talking about sex to some teenagers? So yeah, it's, it's tricky, because you've got this. We're all products of our own environment. And so like, one of the things that I know from, like doing sex education and stuff is that like, you, as the educator also have to like, unlearn like, all of your own shit. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 56:18
How do you think about how religion comes into the mix? When sex education is involved? It's just like a broad.
Hannah Witton 56:27
This, this was really tricky for me, because so I'm, I'm a Jewish atheist myself. Which basically, I'm culturally Jewish, but I don't, I don't have faith. And I don't believe in garden. Yeah, very much an atheist. I drew ruggle. When it comes to like, well, these are my religious beliefs. So I'm going to pull my kid out of this class because it goes against my religion, or like,
Ali Abdaal 56:59
I was everything parents do. Yeah.
Hannah Witton 57:01
There was like a massive thing in the news, like last year or the year before? I honestly, I don't know what time is anymore. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It could have it could have honestly been 2019. But I'd like last year, right. There was a school in Birmingham, a primary school and they had a, they had a programme called No outsiders. And I hope I'm getting this right. Where like, one of the teachers, basically, it was just like this, I think they read lots of different books. And it was all about just like, it wasn't just about like, sex and relationship stuff, but it was like, about race and religion and like, different, like family structures and things. And so like, you know, no outsiders, it was about, like, understanding different people and their backgrounds and stuff. And there were huge protests, like a lot of the parents, like, pulled their kids out of this class. And then there were loads of protests, like outside of the school and lots of demands for the teacher to resign or be fired. Like, yeah, it was, it was a big thing. And a lot of it because they were like, LGBT parents, like in these kids, like illustrated books, or something or like, yeah, I, I really, like I struggle with it. But I'm also coming from a very privileged place where I don't have to deal with that on a personal level, because like, I don't have any close family who are who are like super religious, and maybe have like, homophobic or transphobic views because of that. But I know that that's a very real thing that a lot of people deal with. And I just, the align that I just really want to draw is just like, like, if, if being like queer goes against your religion, like you, like you don't have any right to kind of like, make your kids feel like shit because of that. Like, it's can be so damaging to young people to grow up believing that there is something wrong about them, that there is something sinful about them. That if they believe in God, that God doesn't love them because of who they're attracted to, like, oh, it's, it makes Yeah, it makes me really angry and sad, but also as someone who's not religious and hasn't had to, like, deal with that, personally, I maybe don't quite have the sensitivity to be the person to like, talk about that. Because I think I can sometimes just be like, oh, like, get quite angry about it. But when it comes to like people that you love and family members, it is it is a lot more nuanced than that. Whilst I just I'm very adamant that like, you know, don't kick your kids out if they're queer, like LGBT, like young, like young LGBT homelessness is such a massive issue because these kids have been, like kicked out by their parents. Because they're queer because they're trans or whatever. And I'm just like, that is horrific. And then if someone's like, well, it's my religion. I'm like, not an excuse. Yeah, it's, it's tough. It's tough.
Ali Abdaal 1:00:22
What's the consensus on things like homosexuality, things like being trans in terms of nature versus nurture? If something Oh, like, didn't? Have you interviewed some of the podcasts, you'd say talked about this stuff.
Hannah Witton 1:00:35
Okay. So this is a this is an interesting one, because I recently watched this very interesting TED Talk. Because so basically, you hear they're, like, Born This Way.
Ali Abdaal 1:00:44
Argument. Yep. I was born this way. There's nothing about it. Yeah.
Hannah Witton 1:00:48
And I think that has become a very, like, strong and compelling argument. A lot of people I'm totally going to butcher this. So I very much believe that. Uh, probably more on the like, the nature side, like, yeah, people just like, they have their gender they have their sexual orientation. And some people are gay, some people Trump's like, that's it, right? What did this TED talk say? It was really interesting, because it definitely like shifted a lot of my perspective on the Born This Way. argument, because you also see a lot of examples of sexual fluidity, right, and gender fluidity and all of these things. So that Born This Way, argument is like, well, they were born this way. So it's not their fault. So we shouldn't punish people for something that's not their fault. But then that can kind of be weaponized against the queer community, when you have people who may be like actually come out later in life, or their sexuality or their gender genuinely changes, because we need to be able to like make room for those experiences to and then that kind of like pierces a slight hole in the bone this way thing. And then like, homophobes and transphobes, can use that and be like, well, they weren't born this way. They're making a choice. And like, yeah, it basically just sexuality, and gender, and all these things are just like so much more expansive, and nuanced than the mainstream like, would lead us to believe. And I think that's brilliant. And I think by like, embracing, just like how vast it is, and just being like, really curious about that, and just being like, Oh, you were a lesbian for 20 years, and now you're something else, like, cool, rather than being like, oh, but does that mean that then other lesbians are lying about their sexuality? You know what I mean? Like?
Ali Abdaal 1:02:55
Yeah, there's a lot of moralising around all of this stuff. Yeah. That's, and everyone has some kind of, like, some kind of view. And it's just so hard to actually kind of talk about this, or I think, like, understand it. Because it just seems like the more you uncover the more layers of the onion there are to peel. Yeah, and
Hannah Witton 1:03:21
I'm very excited by that. Because this is like the area that I've like, dedicated, like my life so far, to but I understand that can be quite scary for some people because they're like, aren't they're just like straight people and gay people and then maybe a few bisexuals like, and then then then that's kind of like it, yeah, and then anything that they then suddenly kind of like starts to break down that worldview or challenge it in any way. It's just like, completely overwhelming. And like, as human beings, we love our categories. We love being able to put people in like nice, neat little boxes, because we're like, this is how I make sense of the world. But I quite enjoy the like, the world doesn't make sense. Kind of just like falling into that and just kind of letting it wash over you a bit. And I hit so like, especially with, like, trans issues, and I just want to be like super clear that obviously, like I'm a syst person talking about this. But I think for some people it can it can be fairly easy to be like, Okay, I understand that like binary trans people exist, like trans men and trans women, right people who have transitioned but then like non binary people suddenly, like just throw a spanner in the works for them in their brain. It's just like, I don't understand. And that's because gender is just such a like, such an ingrained and like rigid thing in our society. So many, so many ways of understanding the world of understanding Things about like men and women, right? And I hear a lot of things from SIS people saying, like, I just don't get how somebody could not feel like a man or a woman. Or I just don't get how somebody could feel like a man and a woman. And, you know, as a sis person, as somebody who is like, I'm a woman, I identify with womanhood, like, that makes sense to me. Like the the gender of woman, I'm like, Yeah, cool. Yeah, that works for me, right? I also am like, How could anyone identify as a man, you know, that. But then, but more so of like, non binary, like, even I'm like, I can't understand what that feels like. Yeah, but actually, that doesn't matter. The fact that you don't get it doesn't mean doesn't take away from the fact that non binary people exist, they absolutely deserve our respect. They deserve rights, they deserve access to health care. Same obviously, with binary trans people. And actually, like, you not getting it, me maybe sometimes not getting it doesn't matter.
Ali Abdaal 1:06:16
I think it's a lot of the same stuff, when when the Black Lives Matter was trending a lot, a couple of years ago. And it seemed like everyone on the internet was reading, reading all the same books, where we're talking about how kind of you might not appreciate that racism exists, if you have never experienced, but the fact that you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Yeah. And the fact that you can't imagine what it's like, for someone to be overtly or covertly mean to someone because of their race, that, well, that's kind of eerie, but it's kind of irrelevant, we should listen to the lived experiences of the people who are actually going through it. And yeah, well understand what Yeah,
Hannah Witton 1:06:57
because because with all of these different issues, like if you're not personally impacted by them, if you're constantly, like, if you're constantly trying to have that argument instead, then you're just going to, you're, you're just going to be like, stuck in this, like, well justify your existence to me, justify your oppression to me, rather than actually being like, right. Okay, now, I believe you, right, how can I help? Like, let's move on? Like, what? What comes next? What, like, what do we need to do to make the world a better and safer place for you? Instead of worrying in this kind of like, intellectualising of like, is it nature or nurture? Or like, does racism exist? Spoiler alert? Yes, it does. And like, Yeah, I think we can kind of get stuck there. And like, maybe there's a time and a place for those kinds of more like, theoretical discussions, but when we're talking about people's lived experiences, and like, if we actually want to make life better for them, then I think we would just need to kind of like, be like, right, cool. Got it. Yeah. Let's move on. Let's crack on.
Ali Abdaal 1:08:07
You talk a lot about sex and relationships. We've talked about the whole, like, query stuff. We talked a bit about the sex stuff. Yeah. What? I wonder, so this is switching, switching to the relationships angle? Broadly, what are the things that make for a good romantic relationship? What do you what do you see in your audience and in people that you speak to about the stuff that people commonly get wrong about the whole relationship stuff?
Hannah Witton 1:08:30
Oh, my goodness, I feel like there's there are just so many things because there's like, so many like assumptions and, and tropes and like, ideas we have about relationships from like, romantic movies and stuff that we're like, when we then find ourselves in a, like a serious romantic relationship. We're just like, Wait, it's not like, it's not like in the movie. It's like what's going on?
Ali Abdaal 1:08:53
Yeah. And so what are the key difference? Ah, movie versus IRL.
Hannah Witton 1:08:57
So, so I think one thing, one myth that I've always enjoyed busting is that love does not conquer all. Okay? So I think, you know, we have this like romantic notion that love conquers all, if two people like, truly love each other, you know, they totally are in love, like respect each other, like, their like interpersonal relationship is just magnificent, right? That whatever hardships are thrown at them throughout their life, their love will be able to see them through and they will be able to like, stay a couple and stay in love and stay together throughout it. I disagree. I disagree. I think there are a lot of just like practical life factors that however unromantic it sounds can contribute to a relationship working out or a relationship ending. And that could be things like distance, could be things like work could be things like Your belief systems values could be things like sickness and health. It could be financial people often forget to talk about money in relationships, and that can cause huge rifts. Love does not conquer your bank account. Unfortunately. Yeah, that's one of that's one of the big things for me is that like, whilst it's it's really nice to think about love in that way. And like it can help sure if you two are really into each other. Like it can help because that gives you like the motivation to be like, is this something that we can work through. But ultimately, like, love is not the same thing as compatibility. And I think compatibility is something that we have to get like really honest with ourselves about in terms of like, are we actually a good match.
Ali Abdaal 1:10:57
And I guess that comes from actually just talking about it
Hannah Witton 1:10:59
from talking about it. But also just like, from knowing yourself from lived experience from just like, yeah, really getting to know yourself and the other person and, and have having experiences together, instead of sometimes just talking about hypothetically having experiences together or what,
Ali Abdaal 1:11:19
like going on holiday together and things like that, or that could be
Hannah Witton 1:11:22
a huge one, like you might really love someone and it turns out that you can't live together. But there are relationships, living apart together. Were like, two people are completely in love. And they managed to find like a structure, a system that works for them, where they don't actually live together, but they're in like, a very loving, long term relationship. That's maybe like one of the other things is that like, we have this idea of this. Relationship stages, right? I think there's a book or or, or maybe it's a blog post, I don't know. But maybe it's a book that I haven't read but I just like a lot of people talking about which is like called riding the relationship escalator or something. Where it's just like, you start dating someone you get on the relationship escalator together. And then you're just writing it like you're not actually in control? Is escalator or elevator? Who knows. But, but the but the idea is the same. It's just like, there are these like clear relationship stages that our culture and media and tradition and I'm even like, our politics as well, in terms of like, rights and benefits and stuff that you get from hitting certain life stages. Yeah. So like, sometimes you you might be on that path. Because maybe you think that that's what you want. But actually like, Have you thought about what it is that actually you want? And what kind of lifestyle would suit you? Or are you just kind of like doing these things? Because you're just like, well, that's what you do. When you're in a relationship. That's what you're supposed to do in life, like, you date for this many months, then you move in together at this time, and then you get married, and then you have a baby. And like, you know, I'm saying all this as somebody who has very much like, kind of followed that trajectory. But me and my partner along the way, every like every single stage, we're like having these really deep conversations about like, where is this desire for us to do this together coming from? Like, is this something that we just feel like we should be doing? Because that's the next logical step of our relationship? And that's just what people do? Or is there something that we, as a, you know, as a as individuals, but also as a unit? Like, is this something that's important to us? And like, along the way, just like every single thing, and just being like, is this something we want to do and actually drilling down to like, why? And that's something that you say a lot, and I think a lot of your videos is just being like, ask yourself why? Ask yourself why again, ask yourself why again, and that, like, doesn't just apply to like, work goal setting, but like personal relationship goal setting as well, for sure.
Ali Abdaal 1:14:08
Yeah. Like, why do I actually want this thing? Yeah.
Hannah Witton 1:14:10
And there will be an element of like, oh, well, it'll make my parents happy. Right. And you can choose to listen to that. Yeah. But you could also choose to ignore it if it's going to make you miserable,
Ali Abdaal 1:14:21
right? Yeah, one of my one of my big why's for the whole relationship thing is I often I've heard a bunch of studies referenced rather than kind of read them in their, in their original state, that basically say that your happiness in life basically, like correlates quite highly with the strength of your kind of primary relationship. Have you come across this stuff? Like is that is that like a thing?
Hannah Witton 1:14:46
Um, yeah, again, I think it's something that I've like seen referenced here and there. But yeah, I think this is something that again, like similar to you, I think I've just like, come across it being referenced. But yes, like you're primary relationship and your satisfaction within that primary relationship has a massive impact on your overall life satisfaction that make that makes perfect sense to me. And I don't know whether those things are talking about like romantic relationships because I have primary relationship. And I'm like, Well, what if your primary relationship in your life is with a friend, or with a family member or something, but I think that it would still kind of like, hold true, that premise of like, Do do you have like, a person? Or do you have like your people, because that can absolutely impact your life satisfaction. And again, there's, there's some other studies that again, that I've seen, like referenced and stuff, which is like people with kids, their general life, their overall life, satisfaction goes down, which is so interesting to me, because it's like the same people, though. Like, when interviewed, it'll be like, Oh, my kids, the best thing that's ever happened to me, and they bring me so much joy. But then when they're like,
Ali Abdaal 1:16:02
their surveys survey kind of day to day happiness. Yeah,
Hannah Witton 1:16:05
then actually, their overall life satisfaction is actually lower than people without kids. So that is like, I don't know, there's cognitive dissonance for people with kids, where it's like, you're going to be less happy. But also, that the thing that brings you the most joy in life, yeah, so it's like, it's an interesting one. I remember, like, reading something about that, when Dan and I were like, trying, and I was like, you're ready for our life satisfaction to go down. And other things to be aware of, especially if you're like a, if you are a straight woman, there's also stuff and again, like, I cannot reference the actual like studies and stuff. But I it's just things that I hear referenced. And I think maybe there's some of it in the book of invisible women, when a man and a woman marry each other, the man's life expectancy goes up, and I think his happiness goes up and a woman's life expectancy gets down. Yeah, and you're just like, interesting, literally marrying men is killing us. Great sacrifice I'm willing to make. But with things like that, though. So that's all like very hypothetical, and like, isn't necessarily going to, you're not necessarily going to like notice that in your actual interpersonal relationships. For me, as somebody who like finds learning about these things interesting. That's, it's always something that I bring up with my partner, I'm just like, did you know? Just so you know, like, kind of thing. But obviously, if that's not something that you would directly talk about in your relationship, it's still, I think, especially if you are in like, a sis heterosexual relationship as well, just, for me, it's really important, being very aware of gender roles. And like, I'm someone who considers myself like, quite aware of these things. And yet, in my life, notice myself, and like me and my partner, like slipping into more like traditional gender roles and having to be like, hang on, hang on, did we choose this? Or is this something that we're just like, falling into, because it's the examples that we've seen? It's because of like how we've been raised? It's, it's because of just like, how we assume that we're supposed to act? Because like, when you think about little kids, right, and the way that they behave, they're just mimicking adult behaviour, right? And I feel like that we're doing that throughout entire lives. Like, I'm someone who's almost turning 30, who's pregnant and about to have a kid, how do I act? I'm just going to mimic what I've seen in movies, I'm going to mimic other pregnant people that I've seen, I'm going to mimic other people in their 30s. Like, that's what I'm doing. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just pretending and copying other people. Right? For me, it's about like, especially with the gender stuff in our relationship. It's like, okay, are we just copying other couples? Are we just copying what we've seen? Or are we just playing house? Do you know what I mean? Like? Or is this actually what we want? Is this actually playing into our strengths and weaknesses as individuals and how we can best come together? To support one another?
Ali Abdaal 1:19:17
You proposed to them? Yes, that's, again, kind of unusual. Can't Yeah, yeah. What was the story there?
Hannah Witton 1:19:24
Um, it was, it was a weird one, because we'd actually like, already talked about getting married and basically, like, agreed to get married. But I just like, wanted to do a proposal as well. Because like, is a bit of a weird one, basically, like, we were living together. We knew at some point we wanted to, like, have kids. Yeah, that was really important to both of us. I cared less about getting married. But for him, he wanted to be married before having kids like he was just a bit more traditional in that sense. And Then because of my colitis and stuff, I ended up I had an appointment with my gastro consultant. And basically just kind of like, learned about the fact that because so I had my colon removed, and I have a rectal Stump. This is like, What's this got to do with marriage and kids? Well. And I was told, basically, like, I'm going to have to have like yearly flexible sigmoidoscopy is to take a look and make sure and take biopsies and just like, check for inflammation, but also check for like precancerous cells and stuff. And the doctors just like, you can't have your rectal stump forever, because your chances of rectal cancer like increase, like as the years go on, so I will have to have surgery at some point to have it removed. And I'm like, Okay, fine. And then also, if they go in and the biopsies come back looking a bit scary, then they'll just like wipe it out straightaway, or rip out straightaway even. But then what they said was, do you want kids? Because you will need to complete your family. Is this something that doctors are taught to say? Because all of the doctors, the language is complete your family?
Ali Abdaal 1:21:12
Yes. Yeah. It's a very standard phrase. Wow. Yeah.
Hannah Witton 1:21:14
I was like, what? Yeah, so basically, this is like, the kind of surgery that I would need to have my rectal stump removed to dramatically decrease my fertility. Okay. So then I was told, Hey, if you want to have kids, like, you gotta move on. So yeah, so then I rang down, and I was like, This is what the doctor said. So like, we're doing this and it was like, yep. Okay, we're doing this. And so then we were like, okay, and my parents were going to be travelling. The following year. 2020. Obviously, they ended up coming home a bit earlier. But we talked to them. And I was like, Mom, Dad, when are you going to be back in the country? Yeah. And then we were like, Okay, great. We'll get married then. And then I think after that conversation, I then proposed those. Yeah, so it was like, Okay, we're getting married. And then I was like, I still did a proposal because I was like, and then I wanted to rank as well. But the ring that I my engagement ring is actually one that I've had since I was 18. That was like an heirloom for my granny. And so I said to Dan, I was like, I still expect a proposal back before we actually get married. And he got it in there, like within a few months of us getting married. But I was like, but I've already got the ring. Like you don't have to worry about a ring. Like this is the ring I have.
Ali Abdaal 1:22:25
It seems like the two of you, at least from from what I see in the videos and kind of hearing hearing you talk like this are, are a bit like, rogue in the way that you do.
Hannah Witton 1:22:35
It's interesting that you say that, yes. In so many other ways. Were so conventional. We're just like a straight couple who started dating moved in together. Yeah, got married, and are now having a baby. Like, that's a good point. And we're monogamous, right, like so much of like, our relationship, mate, but maybe like as a sex educator, and like, the kinds of stories that I hear and like, people in my like, sex positive network and stuff have vastly different kinds of relationship structures and styles. I'm like, compared to that, I'm like, Oh, we're like, so vanilla. So conventional. But then like, yeah, when you compare us maybe to like, you know, mainstream, or whatever, like, whatever the, like the dominant, kind of like narrative about relationships, then, yeah, maybe we do things like slightly differently. But I'm like, by no means is this the most radical thing?
Ali Abdaal 1:23:37
What's your, what's your take on the whole idea that, you know, you've got this honeymoon period, which some people say last from anywhere for for a few months to a couple of years. And at that point, that passionate love disappears and gets replaced with compassionate love, which is a slow burn that happens over time. I've seen like a sort of bro science about this. It's legit.
Hannah Witton 1:23:57
Yeah. Okay. So yeah. And I think like, it's not something to be afraid of. Like, you're in, in like polyamorous circles. They use this language called new relationship energy. Oh, no, sorry. There's lots of initialisms like, vocabulary for things in polyamory, which I love. Yeah, so what what that is at the beginning is like this new relationship energy. And the thing that I always try and remember and to tell people as well, is that like, that initial energy, that passion, that honeymoon period, like, it's not a bad thing, that it will end? Because people think like, oh, that you know, like after that six months to two years or whatever, then like, then your relationship is stale and boring. To deliver. And I'm like, no, like, Everything in life has phases. Yeah. And, and it's about just like, loving and embracing each phase for what it is, yeah. Because if you're constantly longing for something that was in the past, or you're constantly longing for, like the next thing that's going to happen, then you're going to be really dissatisfied with what you have. Yeah. And yeah, for me, it's just all about like, just completely accepting that, like, there's going to be lots of things that are out of your control as well. The kind of like timelines for different relationships is just going to be so different. Other things can impact your relationship like, I, when I got really ill, and was in hospital for a month, that was after Dan and I had been dating for a year. And so obviously, our relationship like dramatically changed after that, like, as it as it word, like going through something like that, well, it was just like, you know, we'd been going out for a year. And we, you know, we're in love, and honeymoon period, or like, whatever, at that point. And then suddenly, like, I got sick, me getting sick, meant that our parents were meeting, but without us like being there. So our lives just got like intertwined a lot more. I think it just kind of like made things a lot more serious. Because like, when you're in your mid 20s, like sitting by the hospital bed of your girlfriend, who is like really sick, and you don't know if she's going to get better. Like that's not a normal experience for a couple in their early mid 20s. And then, like, once I was recovering, and like back home and stuff, it was like, well, he's like my partner, but he's also kind of like my carer. Like, for this time as well. Yeah, and I think it just does a lot of like, oh, you stuck around, you know, so like, you know, you're a good one. Yeah, so I don't, I don't know if like, who knows how our relationship would have gone. If that had never happened, like you just don't know. And like, there's all sorts of stuff that can like just be thrown your way out of relationship, and you just kind of, and just a lot, a lot of it is just like rolling with the punches and just being like, how do you cope with this? How do you deal with this as a, as a couple? And that can kind of like, show a lot of people's character? I guess. And, yeah, it all of these things are just different phases. Like, I can't go back to a time where I didn't have like a massive scar of a stoma bag like, that doesn't exist, like, you know, we can't, you can't go back to a time when you have like, new relationship energy. There are ways though, because like, you know, if you're, if you're into certain things, there are like, ways that you can try and like manufacture it. Which can be quite fun, because you have that, like, Esther Parral is a really great person to listen to on like, long term relationships and desire and stuff. She's amazing. And she talks a lot about this, like how desire thrives in situations of risk taking, and uncertainty, and, and all of that. And those things do not lend themselves well to feeling like you're in a secure and stable loving relationship. So it's like, how do you balance that novelty with the like, with the familiarity, which is also very healthy and be good for long term relationships? And so it's about like, how do you how do you create situations of novelty? And I think the pandemics been hard for a lot of people like, Dan, and I just like everyday is the same. It's just like, it's really difficult to create novel experiences together, when it's just the two of us just like hanging out in the house the entire time. Yeah, phases and just like accepting them, just accept them time,
Ali Abdaal 1:28:47
what are some high ROI things that sort of could be like communication wise, or anything that you can do in in a couple that would potentially help mitigate against some of the issues that people have kind of regarding communication and things like that, if that question makes that made sense,
Hannah Witton 1:29:03
I think, yeah. So I think like, understanding that, like, you're not going to be perfect at communication, and like fumbling your way through bad communication, I think is better than like not communicating at all. But there's like lots of little things that you can do to make kind of like saying the more difficult things easier and and I've learned the hard way that if you don't bring these things up, they will just simmer and they will become resentment and anger and then they are just going to come out completely in an uncontrolled way. And what you want is to be able to like, say these things in a very controlled scenario, so you can actually have like a productive conversation about these things. But like, for instance, if being in the same room is really difficult when having that conversation like I don't I don't necessarily believe in like the hierarchy of like communication like, like face to face as best I'm like, if you, if you're really struggling to say that thing face to face, then maybe write it down or text them or like a phone call or something like, as long as like that message is getting across, I think if you are having no face to face interaction in your relationship, then work on that, because there is a lot that you can gather in from those interactions. But like, things that I love doing is like, if you're going for a walk together, you can always I always find like, you can have like quite deep conversations when you're going for a walk. Because you're not looking at each other. You're like looking ahead, anything that kind of like, gives you something else to focus on as well, sometimes, if you're like sitting together, but like back to back, and talking is really nice, because you have that contact point between you. So there's that closeness and that physicality there, but you're just talking at a wall. And for some people that can be like, a lot easier to then like, say some of the harder things. But you, you have that comfort of like still being able to like feel their presence there. And then I think like just one of my favourite things in terms of communication relationships is like relationship audits and check ins, which I think was maybe what you're getting at. And I love these, because I just think that's so important. Like, if it's something that you do, like, once a year, where you, you make it like a fun thing, you make it like a date night, right? So it feels it doesn't feel threatening, it doesn't feel like something that you have to be worried about in the lead up to it's actually something that you're like, looking forward to because it's like, oh, we're gonna go to this fancy place for dinner. And then we're going to do a relationship audit, or like, we're going to go to this gig and then like, go to our favourite pub and do our relationship dinner, it'd be like, yeah, like, it doesn't have to be like, right laptops out, let's sit at the kitchen table. And like, like, if you if you make her, like whatever works for you, in terms of like, what puts you in a open, calm, relaxed mood, because you don't want to be doing your relationship audit. When you're like, on edge. Right? You want to like, you want to be setting yourself up for success in terms of like the context that you create, and the environment that you're in. Yeah, and like asking each other like, so how's the last year been? For you? And like, what were your highlights? In terms of the relationship? What were your low lights? Is there anything that you're interested in working on next year for us together? Or for me or for you as an individual, like, getting all of that out there? And like, you know, if you've had like, a good evening, if you've had like, a lovely time together, then that kind of interaction can like can be really playful. And can be really like, lovely.
Ali Abdaal 1:33:08
Yeah, yeah. So that's something that me and and my girlfriend do. On sort of every every three weeks or so, like a bit of a relationship review. We have like a notion template, which is convenient to look at on the phone minute. All right, should we do a relationship is like called questions that we just kind of go go through what kind
Hannah Witton 1:33:24
of questions you ask, Oh,
Ali Abdaal 1:33:26
I'll give you Let's go. Let's go. You can review these questions,
Hannah Witton 1:33:31
and they'll steal some of mine. And Dan's last relationship audit was like, I don't know, maybe like a walk on New Year's Day just being like, how's it been? For you? Yep. Good. Any notes?
No, we've not done like a proper serious one with actual like, listed out questions, I think, I think because we're like, just naturally talking about our relationship a lot. Because we're about to become parents. It just like it just comes up. Yeah, it comes up quite a lot in terms of just like, thinking about our dynamic and just being like, what, you know. Yeah, just like, especially because the, you know, the last few months of it just being us too, as well. So you're like, how's it going? Like, how would you want it to go? And like,
Ali Abdaal 1:34:17
yeah, because I guess those sorts of conversations like often don't happen by default. Like, it's so easy to get kind of caught up in the day to day, and especially like in the early stages, stages of dating someone or in a relationship where maybe you weren't living together, and you're seeing each other once or twice a week, and you're doing something each time and stuff happening.
Hannah Witton 1:34:34
Yeah. And then when is the time to reflect on it? Yeah. Hey, when we did that last week, like I had a really good time. And this is how this thing that you said made me feel and I really liked that. And I was just wondering, like, if you also had a good time, you know,
Ali Abdaal 1:34:50
it's like those. It's unusual to have those conversations in the moment. And so making time for them I think makes sense. You know, one thing that we do like what went well in our relationship this week, how supported by me, did you feel this week? What's something I did that made you feel loved, appreciated or respected this week? What could I do better or differently in the coming week in the coming week? And so we answered the questions. Yeah. Which other? What are your main stresses at the moment? How can I help? What went not so well, last week? Or last? How long that period was? This is a good one. Is there anything at all I did this week that made you feel not nice, aka sad or bad or innate or annoyed in any tiny way? How can I find that?
Hannah Witton 1:35:26
That's a hard one,
Ali Abdaal 1:35:26
I always get really good data points. Okay, cool.
Hannah Witton 1:35:31
I think I think with a question like that, you have to be careful with how you answer it. I, one of the things I always hear from like, like relationship therapists and stuff is like using AI sentences. So like, say if like, we were doing that audit, and you asked me that question, instead of being like, Well, you did this and you made me and you, you're a bad person, or like, you're insensitive. dataloader, using an AI sentence will be like, I felt like this, because of this thing that happened, or like, this is how you like making it actually about, like, how what that experience was like for you, is how I've heard that it's better to know that that is to do because I think, kind of coming with their, like, accusatory way like you this you that the other person can get quite defensive. And actually, like, sometimes we do need to, like, own our feelings as well of like, oh, I felt like this. And, like, I think that's partly due to this thing that you did, but then also might have something to do with like, this thing happened to me in my past. And maybe like, it would be really helpful for me if we talked about that more generally like, yeah, rather than being like, you don't understand me.
Ali Abdaal 1:36:56
Yeah, I've been I've been reading a book recently called nonviolent communication. Ooh, which is all about this kind of, like, here's how we express our feelings in this kind of way. And it's all about kind of making making it about yourself. Yeah, I feel like X when this happens, it becomes not a it's not an accusation. It's literally just this this the way I'm feeling. Yeah. And I'm just letting you know. And, you know, I'd like us to talk about this, if that's alright, with you kind of vibes. And then yeah, there's no right or wrong answer. It's not like pointing the finger at someone. It's really kind of owning the feeling.
Hannah Witton 1:37:25
Yeah. Because sometimes it can feel like somebody's direct actions have, like, hurt us in a certain way. Right. But other times, like, I know that there's been times where, like, Dan has done something perfectly reasonable. But I'm upset by it. Right. And so it's about like, sometimes it's about still being honest about that. Yeah, like, because sometimes we can be like, Oh, my, my problems are insignificant, like, I'm not gonna bring it up. But actually, like just being like, that, like, I felt like this, like, this is how that made me feel, whilst also acknowledging that like, maybe it wasn't entirely down to the other person's behaviour. Because there's like, there's a lot of things at play when it comes to like, how we react to things and how we feel about things. And some of that will be like, the literal behaviour that we're on the receiving end off. But other times, it can just be like all sorts of baggage that we're also bringing to the, to the situation, but being able to have those conversations about, like what you do about that, because even so, even if someone's behaviour is like, perfectly reasonable, like whatever you decide reasonable in your relationship is they might go okay, like, yes, this this thing that I was doing, like, I know that that was reasonable, but I see that it's upsetting you. And so I'm happy to like meet you where you're at. Or maybe we meet somewhere in the middle for the time being whilst we work on this. And that doesn't necessary have to be a permanent thing. Like maybe that person will eventually be able to, like, go back to doing that thing, whatever it was before.
Ali Abdaal 1:38:57
Yeah. Yeah. Because I guess if you if you if you care about how the other person is feeling and like the relationship itself, yeah, that's probably more important than, Oh, well, in my view, it's reasonable for me to do.
Hannah Witton 1:39:07
Yeah, because it's not about being like right or wrong in that situation, like, well, it was perfectly reasonable my actions. So I take zero responsibility for how you're feeling right now, you know, you know, you're their teammates, you're their partner, like, just because what, you know, just because what you did was reasonable or whatever, doesn't mean that you can just completely take a step back from your partner's feelings. And that's why I like that question about, like, what's making you feel stressed right now? And how can I help because that stress wasn't caused by you, but you're still making it part of your responsibility as their partner to help them with that.
Ali Abdaal 1:39:45
We have a bunch of questions from social media. Oh, really? Like we're gonna chat to you.
Hannah Witton 1:39:50
I didn't see this. I never see anything on Twitter these days. And
Ali Abdaal 1:39:53
a bunch of people have asked questions. Okay, why don't we can we come back? Yeah, Patrick mech up. A guest says is there such a thing as other Have one and a quote love at first sight.
Hannah Witton 1:40:02
I believe that there is like lust and infatuation at first sight and like attraction at first sight for sure. Yeah. And vibes at first sight. Oh, yeah. Love. No, I think love. Oh, this may be controversial. I think love is a little bit of a choice. I think would you mean, I think I make the choice to love data every day. Like I think falling in love. Like that can be a bit of more of a feeling and like, but then I think the staying in love. Yeah. Is isn't like an active choice. Nice, which I think is almost more romantic. Because like, I, I am like, I am choosing you like that as an active thing that I'm doing rather than just like, oh, well, I love you. I can't help my feelings.
Ali Abdaal 1:40:47
Yeah, yes. Like I some people say that. Love isn't a feeling love is an action. Yeah. Falling in love is easy. Being in love is harder.
Hannah Witton 1:40:54
Yeah. And then the one? No, I don't believe in the one I believe in many ones. Nice. across a lifetime.
Ali Abdaal 1:41:02
is a good one. Underscore Davis. Matthew is the concept of a virginity useful to society.
Hannah Witton 1:41:07
No, it's completely sexist and heteronormative. And doesn't doesn't reflect a lot of people's experiences. It was probably useful to society when I mean, we still do, but basically measure a woman's worth off a virgin status or not like whether or not she's had a penis inside of her. That's what that's what it's getting at. Because we think of it like, oh, it's about whether or not you've had sex, but it's like, no, it's about whether or not you've had penis and vagina sex. That's like what it is digging down to, which means that excludes all sorts of different kinds of sex, all sorts of different kinds of people, we have value judgments on whether or not someone is a virgin or not. And that also will vary depending on what their gender and their age is. So like, you have somebody who is like an older man, you would judge them for their virgin status. But then you have a younger woman, and you would judge them for their lack of virgin status. Right? So like, yeah, it plays out in all of these different ways. And I just think it is gross and useless, and we need to move on from it. Okay. And instead talk about like, your first sexual experience, because people define sex and can define sex and all sorts of different ways. Yeah. And some people will go through life have built never having a penis and vagina sex.
Ali Abdaal 1:42:30
On a similar vein, what's your take on the usefulness of number of sexual partners? In any kind of?
Hannah Witton 1:42:39
Yeah, I also think that that's another another one that just like, you shouldn't care. I think it's more about like, the attitudes that people have maybe like, I think it's a useful thing to have conversations with, like, potential, like romantic and sexual partners about like, that attitudes towards casual sex, attitudes towards, like, why they've slept with that many people or why they've not slept with that many people, rather than it being about like, the number itself having holding any information, like, what does that as you would say, data points tell you? Like what, like, I think actually being able to drill down to with somebody about like, how were those experiences? Like did you have a good time? Like, what was your motivation? For? Like, not having sex outside of relationship? What was your motivation for like, having lots of sex outside, like, like, casual sex and stuff? I think that will tell you a lot more about a person than like, the hard number itself.
Ali Abdaal 1:43:46
Okay, yeah, he's thinking. Okay, so I've, for the record, I'm with you on this one. But I've spoken to a few, a few of my girlfriends and tried to argue that point of view, like number of sexual partners shouldn't matter. Come on, guys. You know, it's a 21st century let's let's move on, etc, etc. To which are responsive often heard is, look, there is a difference between someone who's had three sexual partners and someone who's had 300 sexual partners, What
Hannah Witton 1:44:14
difference do they see? What's the difference that they're thinking about? Is it like, a difference in like, towards sex? I
Ali Abdaal 1:44:24
suspect this probably wasn't getting out.
Hannah Witton 1:44:25
Well, so that's maybe what they should be focusing on is like, also, what standards do they hold themselves to? Like? Are they also the kind of person who would maybe only be having three sexual partners total? Great, because that can be a lot of like judgement and double standards. Yeah, there as well. So like for somebody who slept with three people versus someone who slept with 300 to these friends, like, what information is that telling you about them? Like, what kind of girl is that? Versus what kind of girl is that? And what is it about one over the other? You'd prefer rather than, like, so ignore the number but like actually drill down of like, what assumptions are you making about that person's character? What assumptions are you making about that kind of person's values or lifestyle? Or STI status? Like, we could be good? And so actually, like, there's probably a lot of assumptions that they're holding about these two, like fictional characters in their head. And, and then also asking themselves, do you hold yourself to the same standards? Yeah, like? And how would you feel if somebody else judged you a certain way based on the number of people that you'd slept with? Yeah, yeah. And then just being like, no, Joy is absolutely fine. I think if for you, sex is something that you only want to share with, you know, a certain, a certain kind of person, so maybe your your number is lower, and maybe the people that you want to have sex with have have similar values to you. It just so happens then, that you're both of your numbers are low. But it's actually the values that you're holding, and the beliefs that you're holding, that are the things that make you compatible, rather than like the fact that you've both only slept with three people. You could also have somebody who like, has lived a whole life. Yeah, had a lot of casual sex. And then, like, come out of that and been like, actually, like, I've now discovered that this is what I want. And actually, I want the next time that I sleep with someone for it to be like somebody that I'm in a loving relationship with. So maybe they would actually still be compatible with that person. But their numbers way higher.
Ali Abdaal 1:46:37
Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, I think that's a that that that thing of like, the the number is that it's not about the number. It's about the values that yeah, that you're kind of assuming that that number kind of correlates. Yeah. And we should talk about the values.
Hannah Witton 1:46:48
So the next time one of your friends goes like, oh, well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to date someone who slept with 300. People just be like, Tell me about that person. This person, this imaginary person in your mind who slept with your two people? Tell me about them? And what is it? What are the things about them that that you think makes them unsuitable for you?
Ali Abdaal 1:47:05
On the double standards knows, yeah, another thing I've heard, I won't say from friends, because more like from random bros on the internet is, well, men are evolutionarily cycled, but biologically designed to sleep with lots of people, women are not phrases like, well, you know, a key that opens lots of locks. And a lot that's openly Yeah, all of that kind of stuff. Oh, my God, how do we deal with it?
Hannah Witton 1:47:29
First of all, humans are not locks and keys. So can we just like, chuck that one in the bed. Also, again, that metaphor, highly focuses on penis and vagina sex, which is not the only kind of sex and also shouldn't shouldn't be the top of the hierarchy of sex acts as well, but it very much is in our society in terms of like, what we think of as real sex, right? What counts is sex. So let's just like Chuck all of that in a bit. And it's like, no, thank you. But this, like evolutionary biology thing of like, men spread your seed, and like women want to like nest and just have one partner, I would recommend the book sex at dawn. It goes into a lot of their stuff and challenges a lot of those ideas. There's another theory that is about how it was actually like, women that slept around a lot in the communities, because it was better for the offspring, if there was ambiguity about who the paternal Yes, person was the father was of the child. Because when you're living in tight knit communities, if all of the men in your community are invested in the well, being of that child, that child is going to do fantastically, if only one man is. And this other man is like, well, I'm invested in my child, I don't care about that guy's kid. Or if they're fighting over like, the paternal like paternity, because like, like, you know who the mom is, like, that's who that baby like came out of. But you know, like, we only know now these days from like, tests to like know, like, 100 100% Sure. So yeah, that's, that's another theory. And then there's also like, something that we've seen recently like, fighting sperm. So if you put like sperm from two different people's bodies in like, a petri dish, I guess I'm not a scientist. Together. You see them fighting. So if a if a woman's like sleeping around in her community, the idea is that like, the best sperm will win. Yeah. And so like, you'll have the best like, fittest strongest children. There's always like that, okay, yeah, there's there's all sorts of stuff going on there. That is not as simple as that. They're kind of like traditional ideas that were given. But what I say is like, even even if that true, right, even if way back when it was a case, for practical reasons, for resource reasons, or whatever, that that gender dynamic is true, why does that mean it has to be true now, because we don't have the same, we don't have the same resource limitations as we did that. We've got modern medicine, we've got feminism. Like, we have all of these new ideas about people and about when we have all of this new technology. And, and I think so much of like, that idea is about us, like being slaves to our biology. But actually, so much of modern life is about us, like, overcoming our biology, right? Like, you know, if I was chained to my biology, I would have to probably stop working for an entire year, because I would have to, like exclusively breastfeed. And I, like probably wouldn't have the time to work however, like, pumping and bottles exist, which means actually, Dan can do some of the feeding. So already, like technology means that we don't have to stick to those same roles that would have been prescribed. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 1:51:27
Yeah, there's a book I've read recently, the evolution of desire, which kind of talks about this, it's all of this stuff around like how desire has evolved over time. But its main kind of conclusion, if any, is like, even though all of this stuff may be true, we can still choose to not act in those ways.
Hannah Witton 1:51:43
Right. Yeah. That's kind of how I feel about it as well. And I think
Ali Abdaal 1:51:46
I think this is one of the issues that people have with religion as well, where maybe rules and regulations that were set forth 1500 2500 years ago, may have may well have worked for the time that they're in. Yeah, but you know, there is an element of, you know, how many how many of the rules or someone someone quote made up 2000? ago, 2000 years ago? Do we really want to continue following today? Yeah. And are we making that active choice to do so? On another thing that you said, you said, someone, you know, hypothetical person could have had lots of casual sex, and then they there, they realised that they don't want to do that anymore. And they're want to find find someone else. There is a common trope amongst some segments of the internet, mainly sort of the men's rights activist and all that kind of vibe.
Hannah Witton 1:52:34
Why you got to bring them into. Okay, go on. Yeah,
Ali Abdaal 1:52:37
I'd love to hear your take on this. Because,
Hannah Witton 1:52:39
honestly, yeah, yeah. Like they murder lots of women building and sells especially but anyway, that's a whole other.
Ali Abdaal 1:52:44
No, quite Yeah. So. So like one, one thing they would say is, it's really unfair, that there are women who have their, quote, party years when they're young and attractive, and so on, and sleep around with those guys. And then when they hit a certain age, they realise Oh, actually, I need to settle down with someone. And therefore I need to find someone who will be a good dad, rather than you know, the Chad in inverted commas is kind of the memes here. Yeah, who I used to sleep with back in my youth. And a lot of these internet bros would have the idea that this is fundamentally unfair. I don't know if you've seen my husband's bone structure. He's, oh, you know, what was the question? Yeah. So So I guess the question is like, these, these bros would put a kind of value judgement on women who do that sort of thing, sort of thing, saying that? Well, you know, this is a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it to you kind of yeah, all of all of that kind of stuff.
Hannah Witton 1:53:39
Yeah, I honestly, honestly, I don't even know what to say to that. Because I'm just like, it's obviously bullshit. Because like, men do it, too. I'm just like, people, that's, that's just a human experience for some people. Not everyone does that. But some people like it was like we were saying before about, like, you know, your 20s just like, mess around a bit. But like some people meet, like, the person that they spend the rest of their life with when they're like 18 or whatever. And like, that's fine too. Some people like spend the entirety of their 20s in one relationship and then it ends and then they find themselves on the dating scene again in their 30s some people will have like two or three major serious relationships in their lifetime. Some people never will some people are polyamorous like, just the people are different. Yeah. There's no conspiracy theory against you when women sleep around and then settle down with somebody like
Ali Abdaal 1:54:42
I am Maura says what are the best? The best books to read to learn about more to learn more about sex and relationships?
Hannah Witton 1:54:48
Oh, I have Yeah, I have some recommendations. I think come as you are by Emily Makowski is a brilliant one, but it's one that I just like recommend a lot and
has definitely like helped a lot of I don't I don't want to like recommend too many because honestly, like
it can be quite overwhelming. But that one is definitely a good one to start with. If if you've read Emily Nagurski, I would then like recommend reading tomorrow sex will be good again by Katherine Angel. That is brilliant. Mind the gap by Dr. Karen gurney.
Ali Abdaal 1:55:22
What do these books about?
Hannah Witton 1:55:23
So, so honestly, like so, so mind the gap and come as you are quite similar, they're very focused on like, more so like sexuality when it comes to people evolvers. But it's, but it's just a lot of like, how your body works. And then also like mind, the gap, especially dispelling a lot of myths around like how sexual satisfaction and relationship satisfaction is all about the frequency of sex that you have. And actually like it being about quality and not quantity, and things like that. And then yeah, there's come as you are is very, like sex science. And kind of like distilling that for kind of like public mainstream consumption, if you want to, like be like, Oh, that's why my body does that thing. Oh, God, this is so like, normalising and like, because he has so many people, especially folks with Volvo's who are just like, what's, like, am I broken? Right? Because we just like have all of these like really warped ideas of like how US bodies are supposed to react like sexual stimuli. So there's a lot of stuff in there just about like desire and arousal, and all of these kinds of things. And then like, yeah, mind, the gap has a lot more stuff about kind of, like, cultivating those kinds of like sexual relationships in like more long term relationships. And there's a thing that I learned from that book about sexual currency, which I really loved, which is basically like, so like forgetting that like, frequency of sex is unimportant, right. It's about like, the quality and sexual currency actually being this thing that is very crucial for romantic relationship, which is like, the times when you're not having sex, but you're still like relating to each other as sexual beings. So it could be like flirting or making sexual jokes with other another, like a passionate kiss, a little grope of the bum in the kitchen. But it's like all of these little things where you're constantly relating to each other in a sexual way, you are acknowledging that the other person is a sexual being. But you're doing these things in a context where like, it's not going to lead to sex, and there's no pressure for it to lead to sex, because sometimes that can like, shut people down, as well, because they're like, Oh, now they want sex. And so now my body is like shutting down, and I feel like pressure or whatever. So I really loved like the sexual currency thing that I learned from that book. And then like, with Katherine angels book tomorrow, sex will be good. Again, that's a bit more of a like sociological and political exploration of like, all of these new conversations that are coming out about consent and desire and arousal, if you want to kind of like, dig real. Oh, interesting to that.
Ali Abdaal 1:58:10
Right. I'll get audible links to all of those in the show notes. And in the video description. Yeah, we end with just a little quick fire round, which we do with everyone. Okay, so number one, what advice would you give to your younger self?
Hannah Witton 1:58:21
Ah, honestly, I hate this question. Because I feel like I never have something good to say I probably should always like, know what this is. But I mean, just crack on. Just keep just keep doing what you're doing. I honestly, just like, you know, you'll be fine.
Ali Abdaal 1:58:36
Who's had the biggest influence in your career? Oh, God,
Hannah Witton 1:58:39
I honestly don't know. I think it's like different phases, maybe, but maybe like the vlogbrothers. Because like, they were like some of the earliest people that I was watching on YouTube. And like, the reason why I started making YouTube videos, and I still watched them to this day, and I just, like, think that they're such great role models. And I really look up to them as like, older people on the internet. They're not old, they're like in their 40s. But like, you know, they've been on this platform for like, 15 years, whatever. And I'm like, okay, that's what ageing gracefully online. Yes. Like, you know,
Ali Abdaal 1:59:14
what's one tip for someone looking for success,
Hannah Witton 1:59:17
really defining what success means to you? And then also just being able to like, focus on the joy in your current life, as well.
Ali Abdaal 1:59:29
Nice. Yeah. What does the first and last hour of your day look like these days?
Hannah Witton 1:59:34
Oh, in my first hour, these days, I always make sure I get my word all in saying word. Yeah, that's a that's a that's a thing for me in the mornings now. And then the last hour. Maybe just like reading in bed. Yeah, cool, falling asleep.
Ali Abdaal 1:59:53
What material item under 100 pounds also has has added disproportionate value to your life
Hannah Witton 1:59:58
toaster. Oh god, I can't think under 100 pounds. Pop socket? What? A pop socket on the back of my phone. What's the pop socket? Fans over there? Oh, is it one of those like, yeah, like little sticks out. As someone with small hands. I feel so much more secure holding my phone, because I can like actually tax with it and taking a selfie. I'm not worrying about dropping my phone. Yeah. Love it nice. No, they cost like a tenner or something sick.
Ali Abdaal 2:00:33
What book would you recommend to anyone? Anyone?
Hannah Witton 2:00:35
I don't believe that there is a book that is for everyone. But the first thing that literally came to my mind is that if you're into sci fi, I would recommend Becky Chambers, wayfarers series, the first book is called the runway to a Small Angry Planet. And if you like sci fi, bunch of misfits on a spaceship, long journey, like found family, lots of interesting species and like dynamics between all the crew. Cool, good fun.
Ali Abdaal 2:01:04
If you got cancelled and lost everything, how would you start again?
Hannah Witton 2:01:08
Literally my worst nightmare? And I I think I would honestly just be like it. Yeah, I think I think if that happened, and I really hope it doesn't, but obviously it's something that I think is a genuine fear for me and a lot of my peers as well. I honestly don't know how to handle it. I've seen some people like really, like mentally struggle. I would hope that I would get a therapist to deal with that. And then also, I don't know, obviously, it depends on the context, that it happens then and whether or not I choose to be like, I'm going to continue doing this work that I do, because I think that it's really important. Or if I just kind of go, thank you. I'm done. I have no idea.
Ali Abdaal 2:01:54
What quote or mantra do you live by,
Hannah Witton 2:01:56
if any, there's a song lyric from an EVA brothers song that I love. That is literally decide what to be and go be it. Which I mean, when I was like 17, I found really inspiring. Now as somebody who like understands a bit more about, like, structural inequalities, I'm like, you can't just decide what to be and then go be it because like, different things have a way of making that not possible. But um, so I'm just like, yes, this mantra but actually
Ali Abdaal 2:02:34
journey or destination. Oh, journey for sure. Love it. Hello. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. More about you.
Hannah Witton 2:02:42
I'm Hannah Witton, in most places online. My podcast is called doing it.
Ali Abdaal 2:02:50
Oh, I featured in that podcast. Will you do it? Link to that episode? was quite a while ago wasn't? Yeah, like about a year ago? I think. Yeah. Yeah. I asked all the noob questions on that.
Hannah Witton 2:03:00
I left that chat. I thought
Ali Abdaal 2:03:02
it was really fun to make dating more productive or something like that was I think was the title.
Hannah Witton 2:03:05
Yeah, I can't remember. But yeah, we talked about like gamifying dating.
Ali Abdaal 2:03:09
Yes. Yeah, we'll stick a link in the video description. And in the show notes. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. And good luck with the pregnancy. We'll see. Right. Alright, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast can be linked down in the video description or in the show notes depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform and do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast or if you're watching this in full HD or 4k on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That'd be awesome. Thank you very much for listening. I'll catch you hopefully in the next episode.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai