The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders

Today’s guest is global credibility expert Mitchell Levy, who joins to discuss his book Credibility Nation. 

We discuss:
  • Definition of credibility: accurate, known and liked
  • What Mitchell learned in interviewing 500 thought leaders on credibility
  • Why he says credibility starts with clarity
  • What jeopardizes one’s credibility?
  • What is the relationship between credibility, expertise, authenticity, and genuineness?
  • Making a LinkedIn profile credible
  • Being seen and heard as a thought leader
More resources:
About today’s guest
Global Credibility Expert Mitchell Levy is a 2x TEDx speaker (including the 28th most popular in 2021), an international bestselling author of over 60 books, a Certified Stakeholder Centered Coach, and an executive coach at Marshall Goldsmith’s 100 Coaches.

As an Executive Coach, Mitchell is a sounding board, a thinking partner, and someone who can hold the mirror to generate insights for personal change. This impact has earned him a place among the world’s Top 200 Leadership Voices by LeadersHum (#16 in 2023), and as the #1 Thought Leader in Ecosystems and Top 100 Thought Leader Overall by Thinkers360.

About the host
Ross Romano is a co-founder of the Be Podcast Network and CEO of September Strategies, a coaching and consulting firm that helps organizations and high-performing leaders in the K-12 education industry communicate their vision and make strategic decisions that lead to long-term success. Connect on Twitter @RossBRomano or LinkedIn 

Creators & Guests

Host
Ross Romano
Co-founder of Be Podcast Network and CEO of September Strategies. Strategist, consultant, and performance coach.
Guest
Mitchell Levy
Global Credibility Expert | Author of 65 books | 2x TEDx speaker

What is The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders?

Are you looking for proven ideas to increase your influence, hire and develop an excellent staff, build a stronger culture, lead meaningful change, and form a strong foundation for learning and leadership success? This is the podcast for you.

Whether you're a leader to seeks to refine your command of core educational strategies, learn new management techniques from those who have used them at some of the world's largest corporations, gain fresh perspectives on personal development or student success from practitioners across fields, or a little bit of everything, you'll find powerful content on The Authority.

Join leadership coach, storytelling strategist, and edtech advisor Ross Romano as he interviews the prominent education authors you already admire, up-and-coming voices, and experts from the worlds of business, personal development, and beyond — including Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and Amazon bestsellers — to take a deep dive into their wealth of practical insights.

Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in, everybody. You are listening, once again, to the Authority Podcast here on the BE Podcast Network. Thanks, as always, for being with us. And no matter who you are out there, if you're a leader in the education space, if you are advancing in your career, if you're in any other kind of role, this is a topic that is going to serve you well.

in really establishing opportunities for yourself and the way that you're viewed in the marketplace. We're talking credibility. So my guest is global credibility expert Mitchell Levy. He's a two time TEDx speaker, including he had the 28th most popular TEDx talk in 2021. He's an international best selling author of 65 books.

We're talking about one of those today. He's a Certified Stakeholder Center [00:01:00] Coach and an Executive Coach at Marshall Goldsmith's 100 Coaches. He's rated among the world's top 200 leadership voices by Leaders Hum. And it's the number one thought leader in ecosystems and a top 100 thought leader overall by Thinkers360.

As I mentioned today, we're talking about a 65th book. I guess maybe there's been some more in between. Well, you can let us know. This book is called Credibility Nation and Mitchell, welcome to the show.

Mitchell Levy: Ross, great to be here. I, it's always exciting when, when somebody actually has like the most current file, okay, is, is he going to say this and then boom. So thank you. It was fun to listen to.

Ross Romano: Yeah. We always try to stay up to date, but who knows, you know, oftentimes, right, when you've been doing so much, it's like, I wonder what else has happened since, since this was written down. So, awesome. Well, it's great to have you here. And like I said earlier, a great topic, something that everybody I think can, can continue to improve and do better with, and leads to all kinds of [00:02:00] opportunities.

I'd love to start in fact, by flipping the script a little bit and looking at it from the audience's perspective. It's something I talk about a lot when we talk about any kind of messaging, value proposition, etc. Whether it's from the perspective of a company or an individual is who Who is it for?

Who are you talking to? And so, and you know, you can establish it from your own perspective, right? We have listeners who are listening to this today. We're telling them how to establish credibility. We want to show them that we have it as well. So how should someone go about evaluating a quote unquote experts credibility?

Are there specific questions they should ask, particular things they should look for?

Mitchell Levy: Oh, interesting. Hmm. So let's first, let's update the definition of credibility. If you look in the dictionary, the definition today will say the quality in which one is trusted. Now, to me, that is [00:03:00] only one third accurate. It's an important third, but let's add two more components to it. Credibility is the quality not just that you're trusted, but that you're known and liked.

And by known, it's not that I know of you as a, as a thought leader, but that, that I actually know you, right? So when you're evaluating a, a thought leader and let's say it's somebody you don't know, okay? So you're, you're jumping to a probably the easiest, let's use, let's use the example of LinkedIn. I, I'm jumping on a LinkedIn page of somebody who is, who looks like a thought leader in my space.

So the EdTech space or whatever it might be. And, and what am I going to see? Well, the first thing I'm going to do in terms of establishing trust is in the first one to three seconds, is there a good picture? What does the tagline read like? Is there anything funny? Do they use a generic [00:04:00] LinkedIn background or have they added something to the background?

So I'm going to spend the first one to three seconds to get that impression to make a decision of whether or not I want to get to know that company or that individual a little bit more. Okay, so that's the first piece of it. So, is enough trust to want to get to know them better. And as you're getting to know them, are they building on the trust?

So, if that first 1 to 5, 1 to 3, 1 to 4 seconds is a yes, I'm going to now give it somewhere between 30 to 60 seconds, right? So, as I'm scrolling through. The LinkedIn profile, is it really filled out? Is there information there? I'll typically see whether or not the featured has a featured video or not. Not that I'm going to play it at the moment.

I'm just going to see it. Are there images? is the information in terms of where that person's [00:05:00] been, has it, is it built up enough? And then I'm going to scroll down to the bottom. At the bottom, I'm going to be looking for not just what they're endorsed for, but the recommendations that they've received.

And I may end up reading a couple of them super quickly. I'm going to spend just a minute. What I'm looking for is I'm looking for the social proof that'll allow me to get to know them and maybe like them a little bit more. If that next minute. allows me to actually get to know them a little bit more.

So by the way, here's where most people make mistakes as they think the profile should be something that is all business and not exciting, and I don't get to know them. I'm going to move on to the next thought leader because I, if I can't get to know you, how do I get to like you? So, if that's the case, and this is really important to me, I may then spend another 2 to 5 minutes. spending 2 to 5 minutes, I really need to understand in a short period of time, that I trust you, that I know you, that I like you, and that knowing you, a [00:06:00] lot of the getting to know you is going to come from reading, in some cases, not just how people are giving you recommendations, but the verbiage you use in giving other people recommendations.

Does that make sense?

Ross Romano: (ad here) Yeah, are there particular things in there that would jeopardize one's credibility or that should be a red flag to someone who's trying to determine if someone else is credible?

Mitchell Levy: So, it's a great question. I'm going to switch it from red flag to yellow flag, if we're talking about football in, in in Europe, right? So, the yellow flag is what I call cred cred. Cred cred are those little things that happen that hurt your credibility. And they may not immediately cause a problem, but you continue to pile those up, right?

So, If you see a picture, [00:07:00] that's not really a good picture. Right? It's, you know that they happen to be 50 or 60 and they have a picture from when they're 20. It could be a picture where they're skinny and they're no longer skinny. Whatever, or it could be a picture with them and their dog, assuming the thought leadership's not on them having animals.

And the primary feature of the picture is the dog, right? So, A bad picture using a generic background, those are cred cred things. When I end up looking at somebody's website, as a publisher I've published over 750 books, so I'm always looking at at how people do things and show up and as credibility is concerned, one of the things that has allowed has dominated in terms of a best practice is at the bottom of a webpage, they have the current copyright year.

I know that sounds really silly, but if I'm looking at somebody who's supposed to be a [00:08:00] academic institution or an educational professional or a publisher and they have an incorrect copyright or they have a copyright that that's three or four years old, that's cred crud. It doesn't actually cause me to, it's not the red flag, but you add a bunch of yellow flags together and guess what?

They're out of the game.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. It's at least missed opportunities to really establish, you know, credibility or, or to establish trust to show, okay, they're, they're kind of on it here. Right. Are there, are there certain things that in particular stood out? My understanding is in your work and in writing this book, you interviewed more than 500 different thought leaders on credibility.

What, what came out during that? Were there things you found surprising or just things that really rose to the top as most critical? Yeah.

Mitchell Levy: God, so much. So, one thing for those who, who really, if you [00:09:00] like the interview, and this is fascinating enough, I, I not only did a book called Credit Body Nation, and a lot of my stuff is, is, is out there, you can just Google me, but I also did a TEDx that, that was, it's called We Are Losing Our Humanity, and I'm tired of watching it happen.

So, at a, at a big, simple level, If you actually are truly a credible human, and there are 10 values of credibility, those are the 10 values that fit under the quality of being trusted, known, and liked. If you really are, you're going to be more humane to other people. It's just kind of simple, and I believe it is that simple for us to be more humane, and since doing the research, and since doing the book, society has become less and less humane.

But that's a different story, right? So that's one thing is, The simplicity of which we could be better to each other and to be able to attract and get more people excited about wanting to play and be part of who we are and the audience we, we serve. So that's, that's [00:10:00] one. The, the thing that turns out to be the biggest lesson I learned is that credibility comes second. What comes first is clarity. And it turns out that clarity of, of the human or clarity of the organization I'll specifically talk to humans since I interviewed 500 thought leaders. 90 percent of those people I talked to did not actually understand what their purpose in life was. 90%. These are thought leaders.

And if I take it to the next level, 98 percent did not have the ability to articulate with clarity how they were serving. And so, what, I think what popped out the most is the simplicity of the formula, and I'm happy to share it, is the simplicity of the formula and how powerful the, the, [00:11:00] the common themes, the norms across society have, have gotten that We end up doing all of these marketing cookie cutter BS things versus The things that are just purely simple, that's pure, simple is not easy, really simple, really powerful, where we get to people to actually see us, where they trust us, you know, we're vulnerable, we have external integrity, authenticity, we're coachable, that, that people get to know us, knowing us means that they see that our internal integrity Integrity, in alliance with our external integrity, that, that we have the intent and commitment to do the right thing, that we're servant leaders, and then liking.

Liking is really simple. One of the things that came out is how easy it is to be liked, and I'll give you two values that are associated with being liked. One is showing respect. Showing respect sounds really simple. What does [00:12:00] that mean? Regardless of your position in life, you come early, you come prepared, you come with your heart, right?

By the way, these are not necessary. Mom or grandma might have told you to come early, but other than that, we're not really taught this. Coming prepared, no matter how powerful you are, you have at your fingertips the access to truly understanding the client when you get to meet them or talk with them.

It is so amazingly easy and Why do you not spend the five minutes? to spend an hour or a half hour talking to somebody, why don't you spend the five minutes Googling them or using, using some form of AI to research them ahead of time? And the second piece, and this is something else we're not taught, so this is opposite of what we're taught, is sharing the ideas, thoughts, and actions of others.

I call that cred dust. It's sprinkling on other people. So sprinkling on your audience, somebody else's ideas, thoughts, and actions. Everybody wins. Your audience is getting [00:13:00] more information. That's going to help them be more successful. You're getting recognized as someone who actually is of service and shares other people's ideas.

And the third thing is the person you're sharing is, is also getting that cred dust sprinkled on them. We're taught that we're never supposed to talk about competitors or talk about other people. We're taught that, that we're the only ones that are supposed to know the answer. And that's, that's wrong. So anyhow, what, what I'll come back to the, the actual formula for clarity, if you like, but those are the things that, that I learned.

It's kind of simple to be liked. It's important to be liked. It's important for people to know and see you because particularly if you're a leader and you're running an organization, The people working with you, they should be working with you, not because you are command and controlling them. It's because they understand the, the, the values you stand for and they want to work with you and achieve the things that you're [00:14:00] looking for.

Ross Romano: Yeah, and I, I do believe that a couple of the other, I guess, associated characteristics that go along with what you were talking about with the cred dust piece and with establishing credibility, perhaps in a way that sometimes feels, I don't know, not intuitive or, or it's different from the pressure that people may put on themselves sometimes when they're trying to establish credibility is that humility and that perspective taking piece to one, you know, being able to admit.

When you don't know something or, you know, to, to, to be clear about the things that you're expert on and things that you're not is important to having credibility in what you are. If you're feeling too much pressure to, to try to prove that you know everything, then it's going to diminish your credibility in the areas [00:15:00] that you should have it.

But also that, That piece of shared or borrowed credibility and or and or amplifying others sometimes takes in the perspective, the people you're wanting to reach and showing that, okay, I'm, I'm not. established as the expert in this thing, and, but I know a lot about it, but when I also demonstrate that I'm tapping into ideas from other people, that might be people that are really well known, and I'm showing that I understand those ideas, and that in a sense is rubbing off on me, but also when I'm amplifying others.

And showing that we're, we're kind of in this as a team, right? We have credibility as a unit because we fill each other's gaps. We don't try to take credit for, you know, what everybody's doing. And again, we're. Sometimes I think people feel pressure to, to [00:16:00] show that, that they have it all themselves that in fact, you know, the truth is that when you have the confidence and the self confidence, right, and the humility to say, look, let's all highlight one another here that can come across much better to the people you want to influence.

Mitchell Levy: Yes.

Ross Romano: Let's go back to that clarity piece. So you do say credibility starts with clarity. You mentioned the clarity formula, and that's certainly worth diving into.

Mitchell Levy: So the name that I came up with for this the acronym is CPOP and it stands for Customer Point of Possibilities. Yes. And, and I will be, first of all, let me say I'm honored to share the formula. Hey, I know it, so let's share it. Now, here is the unfortunate aspect of it. Even if I share it, even if you go, oh my god, I could figure that out. I would say that [00:17:00] 98 percent of the time, even when I share the formula, there's, we're so influenced by marketing cookie cutter stuff. that it's hard to get it right 98 percent of the time. So there's 2 percent of you I'm going to share this formula with and you're going to go, Oh, I got it. And then there's, even when you, we'll come back to that, but even when you, you know, the answer for yourself, owning it and, and proliferating it requires, Support, because society keeps wanting to derail you from your level of clarity.

Alright, so let's give you the formula. If you are a credible organization, or if you are a credible human, you are of service to others. We're good so far? Okay. So, the formula is two components. Who, so who is it you serve? [00:18:00] And what, from their perspective, what is their pain point or what is their pleasure point? And to be able to articulate this in less than 10 words. So the who is 1, words. the pain point is, or pleasure point, is where they actually want to go. And to be able to create a CPOP, which I call the playground you're playing in, what it often represents is it represents where that organization or where that individual is executing on their purpose today. And if you could do that, it makes life so much simpler.

Ross Romano: Yeah, no, I mean, I love that. That's it really aligns with, The way that I've approached you know, with, with messaging work with companies is the starting point is who's the audience number one, right? It's [00:19:00] who's your purchaser audience. Who's your end user. Who's your influencer audience? You know, who are the people out there that need to hear what you're doing?

And then what are their challenges? What are their pain points? What do they want to know? And unless you're talking about that. It doesn't matter what you're saying because and, and it's, you know, maybe surprising sometimes companies that have been around decades have never really established this and, and sometimes you're inside and you're inside the weeds and you're, you're so focused on features and functions and, oh, we do all this great stuff and it's very, we focus.

And the same thing here, right? With an individual, with an expert. The more I talk about how much I know and all the expertise I have, it's not actually influencing you to think about, why should I care about this? Why, you know, this sounds like somebody who knows a lot, but can they teach [00:20:00] it? Can I actually learn from them?

And they're not, addressing anything that are the things that matter to me, really. And it's, so it has to start there because it doesn't really matter what you know, unless you know who wants to know that and what do they want to know, right? Yeah, and I think some of these pieces, the piece going back to your definition of credibility, accurate, known, and like that known piece is It's so important for those who are wanting to establish credibility.

And it's really something that stands out to me among the people out there who are seeking credible sources. You know, particularly when you talked about that online environment, right, whether it's LinkedIn or other channels, and this has become its own sort of cottage industry about, you know, people forming businesses around.

different [00:21:00] things that they supposedly can teach you how to do. Well, I've done this and this is how I did it. And here's my playbook and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And that known piece I think is what's often missing because we know, we know that it's accurate in the sense that, well, this person did this thing and it led to these outcomes for them.

So that much is true. And we know that maybe. They present well online and we want to achieve some of those outcomes. So we like that, but we don't really know. One, what really is motivating to do what they do or, or, you know, are they, do they really care about helping people in a certain way or, you know, some particular mission around that?

Is that what they're really driven by? Or are they driven by the fact that they know they can make money off of this? Do they really care? If you are [00:22:00] successful with whatever you invest your money, your time in doing this thing, the results you get, or when they say, not everybody's going to get the same results, is that transparency or is that taking themselves off the hook and saying, look, once, you know, once you give me your money, I'm not really responsible for what happened, right?

Because I think there's a lot of things that aren't totally replicable, or at least without personal involvement, personal touch, and that opportunity to be known, and to, and that is also incumbent upon audiences to say, well, How do I know if this is actually something I should pay attention to? I was wondering, you know, in that case, kind of about the relationship, if you, as you see it between credibility, expertise, authenticity, genuineness, right?

I think a lot of those things are in the mix in understanding what [00:23:00] credibility really should be and that. You know, going back to your definition of it, right? A lot of the standard definition might really just be about kind of that expertise that accuracy. Well, This person has a PhD in this so obviously they're credible But if i'm really going to put my trust in you there is more to the picture than just that

Mitchell Levy: Okay, was there a question there?

Ross Romano: My question is I guess What, what is, how would some of those other aspects, kind of the authenticity piece, that, that genuineness piece, how would that relate to how you would determine one's credibility and, you know, for the, for the people out there who are, you know, trying to ascertain credibility.

How, how do they really focus on that piece of known and knowing the source, right?[00:24:00]

Mitchell Levy: Right,

Ross Romano: and, and not overlooking that and just thinking, yes, this person is, it's accurate, so it's credible, right? Because I, I think that's the piece that is unique about your definition, and that is often overlooked by, by those who are evaluating it.

Absolutely.

Mitchell Levy: So of the 10 values of credibility, one that is, by definition, the most manipulative, and that's in a positive and negative way. And that is, and, and by the way, as humans, we, we vibrate at a certain frequency. There's an index called the Shane Index. If you, if you go to the National Institute of Health, they've had a global country studies focused on the Shane Index.

And what they do is they actually have shown that we as humans resonate at a frequency. And what comes out of that study is the [00:25:00] particular value or attribute or emotion that people feel that is the most manipulative. And so the one I'm talking about is authenticity. Authenticity is something that when people feel it, whether or not they know it or not, they get attracted or repelled to a person. And the downside with authenticity is that it doesn't have to be for the betterment of humans. You could be authentically a serial killer, or authentically a mass murderer, or authentically a fill in the blank of negative things. People still get drawn in. So, authenticity is, is, is absolutely key and important.

What's also important is, under the no category, having the intent and commitment to do the right thing by society. What does that mean? Right? So, that's when you get to know people better. It's, it's also [00:26:00] important to be, if somebody is an expert in the area, They, by definition, can't know everything. It just doesn't work, so they have to be coachable.

So, if you're looking at an expert and you say to them and ask a question, or you say something that you know is different than they know or they don't know, having them be, being vulnerable enough to go, Oh, I don't know that answer, but I'll look it up if you want. Right? Very powerful. It's, it's really the, the trust comes by a certain set of attributes.

The, as you get to know somebody, so for instance, if, if, if you're running a business. And you have a very strong political orientation and you think that's important enough for you. You actually need to know that the, the management team of the organization you're working with has a political orientation that's in alignment with you.

with you. If not, it may not be [00:27:00] a organization you want to, to work with. With today's world, there are so many opportunities to work and, and play with so many different types of people. What's important is to like. the people you're working with, right? And so authenticity is, is by far the most powerful, but there are other elements as well that really does, that really does make sense.

I'm going to take a different part of what you said before, so I'm going to leave at that and move to our next question. The next question was, What people often do is they put out there and they say, listen, I'm, I'm an expert. I've done this once. I've been able to work with somebody like Tony Robbins and I made him millions of dollars, spend 15, 000, get my funnel and it'll work for you.

So what I'm going to say is whenever somebody makes a statement like that, whether or not they've done it once or more than once, it worked at a point in time in a particular approach for a particular audience. That has no life has changed. [00:28:00] By the, from the time they did it to now, life has changed.

There's no guarantees, unless they're saying, I guarantee and I'll give you your money back, unless they're actually guaranteeing, there's no guarantees that what worked for them won't, I'm sorry, what worked for them will work for you, there is almost one guarantee, which I can't make at the moment, but I'll say that, And, and I'll give you an example.

There's a person I know, I really like him. Good, good person. He has his clients. He's got something in the order of a hundred plus people paying 6, 000 a year to be part of his service. Okay. And what I will say is he starts with credibility. the client he works with, he'll create all the formulas and the frameworks and the approaches to bring, to bring his clients to market. When I asked one of his clients about clarity, [00:29:00] they had no clue. Right? So it's, it's sort of like he went out, he caught the fish, he gave it to, and he goes, Oh, let me show you how to, how to actually cook the fish. And maybe, maybe he teaches you how to cook the fish, but it's one particular species of fish.

He's not teaching you how to go out and build the fishing pole, how to actually bait it, how to actually get clients, how to actually cook with a variety of different areas. And so what's interesting is if you don't start with clarity, something you do, which is great, if you don't start with clarity, everything else doesn't have the same value because you need to, over time, We're going to change our level of clarity.

We're going to change our purpose and where we're executing on our purpose. And when we do that, we need to have the tools and the ability and even foresight. Whether or not we change because we want to, or we change because society has changed, or we change because technology has changed, [00:30:00] whatever happens, is you as a leader running an organization, are only as good as you understand where your market is today and where it's going tomorrow. And, and you need the tools and the tool set, and you need to have trust in your people to help you navigate when things happen. And we, we, there are many things that happened, you know, COVID, nobody expected that, changed the world. Any time we've had major recessions, you know, any time something significant has happened, the, the companies that survive are those who really understand the clarity of how they're serving, and how to adopt appropriately and do it quickly.

Ross Romano: You know, yeah, as you're talking, as I'm thinking about our, our listeners here it's making me think about grading in a sense of you know, for all the issues and [00:31:00] debates about how grading should be done. In some sense, some of these things are almost like if there, if there just was no such thing as grading and assessment and teachers taught and kids were in kids went all the way through school without ever.

getting any hands on evaluation of how they were doing, how much they knew, what their proficiency was, and then they went out into the world, and then they found out, do I actually know anything or not? Right? Like this whole time I think I'm learning, but I have no idea. I don't, nobody's ever, nobody's actually, talking to me, looking, having a conversation with me, helping me, hands on, talking about what do I want to do in the future, what might I want to use this knowledge for, right?

All of those things to say, no, well, these, this is the curriculum, this works it worked for, you know, people in the past, it'll work for you. So if you just follow the curriculum, you can do whatever you want to do. And we would have, you know, all kinds of outcomes from [00:32:00] that. And it's not, it's, it's truly not dissimilar because so many of these pieces are, it's subjective.

There's no, there's no one way to be a thought leader.

Mitchell Levy: I was going to say it's subjective and in this, in, in the academic space, life has changed. I mean, life has changed so significantly. You cannot ignore the fact that you have a computer in your pocket, not just a computer, a smart computer who could figure out and answer questions for you.

You cannot, there is not a day when I'm hanging around with friends that I don't go to some AI and ask a question to get an answer. So, information that we're not carrying, in the old days, you, you would not expect any student to carry a, you know, a, a 50 pound pack of the Encyclopedia Britannica in their arms and bring it to them to, to the classroom.

We, we have that, and then [00:33:00] some. if we're talking about students, we need to be teaching discernment, not teaching how do we memorize data and facts. We need to be. teaching how do you actually get to answers? How do you determine if the answers we get are the right answers? How do we make sure there's, there's credibility, trust, know, and like inside the answers?

And now how do I interpret it? For the audience that I'm working with, that is much more appropriate. I'll give you a different example if you don't mind. So, one of the things I recently created was a Clarity Certification Program. And before I release it to market, I wanted to take a look at what other certification programs are out there.

One of the things that's not on my CV is I've created four executive business programs for Silicon Valley universities. So it's something I'm comfortable with. I've done, I've done a lot. When I look at any certification program, whether or not, and by the way, this [00:34:00] includes bachelor's and, and, and master's and PhD programs, including, you know, whether it's the project management certification or, or any certification program out there.

There is one thing that they all are dramatically lacking, other than trade schools, right? So we'll put trade schools to the side. If you look at what all of those certification programs are doing is they're teaching transformation. They're teaching, how do I bring a company or an individual from A to B? What they're not teaching is, well, actually, how do I get clients in the door and how do I run my company? Even, I got an MBA. Even getting an MBA, I'm not taught how to run a company. I'm not taught how to do client acquisition. I'm not taught how to have conversations with people who may not be, may not realize that they should be clients of mine, right?

So I've, in terms of the program I've created, I've bundled that in, because, [00:35:00] When I bring somebody in the door and they're part of the program, not only do I want them to have clarity, not only do I want them to be able to deliver clarity to others, if that's something they're interested in, but I want them to have clients and to have business and to be able to practice and to be able to, to show up credibly for every engagement and to be able to put them on a path that they have success for the rest of their life, whatever that is for them.

And we were missing, the society was different and the academic institutions were created at a time that was a different time than what we have today. It's, it's time to adjust. It's time to change.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. And that's totally relates back to one of the things you said earlier, that thing. That credibility is service, that someone who has credibility is invested in your outcomes, they [00:36:00] care about your success, they have your best interests at heart, and they're going to give you advisement and information that is based on what is best for you, not what's best for them.

And be honest in the times when You know, when they, the answer might be, you know what, you should be my client right now, or you shouldn't, right, or you should work with this other person, or maybe I would love to work with you, but maybe at another time, or whatever the case may be to, it doesn't mean that.

Lacking confidence in knowing that I, you know, I can help you or not, but saying, look, in order for me to serve you, I have to, I have to prioritize what's best for you. And, and I have to be, have the integrity. to give that answer, whatever it may be, even at [00:37:00] times when I wish, I wish I could get this client right now, or I could really use one, right?

But you know what? That's not But in the long run, that's not going to help my credibility. And you know, and in the short run, of course, it's it might be antithetical to other values. And even from the audience perspective, I think with some of the things, right. It, again, like it's subjective.

It's not one size fits all when, when it's about knowing someone and knowing what drives them and what their values are. It's about knowing that it's in alignment with yours. Right? I mean, it's not that there's one right way to go about it. For me personally, I might say, you know, if I want to learn from somebody about a new way to make money for me, it might be important to know that it's somebody who's really invested in a particular cause, and they really wanted to make a difference there, and then they learned, hmm, this is also, you know, a good way to make a living, so great, [00:38:00] here's how we can make money.

You know, make a difference while also, because I might know that if, if it was just the other objective, then I would eventually lose interest. Because I would say, yeah, this is not really what I'm interested in. For somebody else, right answer might be, look, like I want to learn from somebody whose number one priority is how to make money.

And you know, whatever that is, I just want to know somebody who knows how to focus on that goal and do that. And that's, what's going to motivate me. And that's what's important to me. I don't want it to be incidental, right? That's, you know, there's no, neither of those is right or wrong. It's about saying, well, I just need to know that it aligns with how I'm motivated because then I can invest, I can sustain, and I can get success.

Whereas if it's not what motivates me, then I'm going to lose interest. And ultimately, I'm not going to get results, even if the person knows exactly what they're [00:39:00] doing. Mitchell, we've covered, I feel like, a lot, but but one thing we didn't totally, I think, define, which is, which is worth doing is why, why leaders should commit to credibility and, and, and then relatedly, I think we've, we've talked about the term bot leader, we haven't totally defined that. So, I want to touch on a little bit of that before we wrap up.

Let's talk about the thought leadership piece first, which, and you've given a TED talk on this, being seen and being heard as a thought leader. And you know, I think that's, you know, there's certain connotations around the term. Some people may feel like they really understand what it is. Others might think that it sounds pretentious or whatever or that it's, it's unclear what the, You know, what the outcomes are of that.

Why, why is it important for professionals, for, for [00:40:00] leaders of organizations, right, to establish themselves as thought leaders?

Mitchell Levy: Mm. I'm going to give you an answer that, that is not fun. And, and, and certain, certainly something that changed in the pivotal year of 2023, there've been many pivotal years for society what. What ended up happening in 2023 is we actually saw the true proliferation of AI for the first time. AI has been something we talked about for 60 years, but it now actually exists. And what's fascinating about that is that the, the AI has democratized thought leadership. So anyone who wants to write a piece on any topic whatsoever. They don't need to be a thought leader in this space in terms of the traditional terms.

They [00:41:00] actually need to be able to ask the right questions. Okay. So now we haven't seen this proliferated through society yet, but you're, you're seeing more and more of it all the time. It is just super easy to do that. So first let's go back to what is, what is the definition of thought leader thought leader is, is now have a slightly different definition.

And I've. I, I have a podcast called Thought Leader Life. I've published 750 books of thought leaders. This is an area that I have expertise in. I would say a thought leader is someone who, when they speak, whether it's metaphorically speak, they have one or more people to listen to them. I, I know that sounds really simple, but a father, son.

If dad talks and the son listens, you're a thought leader. It's really that simple. So, so now, the question becomes, when you speak, Are you speaking to the audience who needs to hear you? That's [00:42:00] knowing with clarity who you serve. And if you know their pain point and pleasure point, you're with so much data out there.

You're actually speaking to the audience you serve, and you're speaking in a language and addressing topics that that are relevant to the audience. So is it important to be a thought leader? The answer is absolutely. It's right now if you look at LinkedIn, LinkedIn has a badge that people get that's focused on a top voice on a particular topic. That entire system is driven by AI. AI is going out and saying, huh, This is what we think is important for executive coaches. This is, let's go and ask a question and then, and then those people who, who sort of say executive coach in their profile and there are hundreds of topics. And so you go to somebody's LinkedIn profile and it says top voice of and fill in the blank.

That's all AI [00:43:00] driven. That's not even a human who's actively involved. It's all machine generated, machine driven. That's only a teeny, teeny, teeny bit of, of what we're going to see in terms of the proliferation of thought leadership. So, the answer to the question is, If you know who your audience is, and you are serving your audience, and you're serving them either a pain point they want to get over, a pleasure point they want to reach, and they know of you, and you're providing content and value, whether it's driven from AI, or driven from yourself, or driven from experience, and you then have the social proof showing that you're continually growing and learning to help satisfy that audience, You will not only be a thought leader, but you will be a successful thought leader who really cares about serving your audience. (ad here)

Ross Romano: To ramp it up the credibility pledge. What, what is that and why, why would leaders want to [00:44:00] commit?

Mitchell Levy: Do you have it in front of you? I don't know if I have it in front of me. I haven't said it in a while.

Ross Romano: I had it in front of me earlier. Well, you don't have to read it word for word, but what, what is it about?

Mitchell Levy: cool. What, what I was trying to figure out when I created credibility nation. So the, so I'll be a little bit vulnerable. I did the research. I interviewed 500 thought leaders on credibility and because I did that, I thought, Oh, I should be selling credibility in the marketplace.

And it was, by the way Three and a half years later that I realized that clarity comes first, credibility comes second. So I spent three and a half years doing something. And by the way men, if your wife says something, you have to listen. So my wife said something and I tried to ignore it. She said to me, honey, do you realize that all business people consider themselves credible?

So the answer is that's true. It's kind of like selling ice cream to Eskimos. There are some Eskimos who are going to say, Hey, Mitchell, that's great, I love it. And there are others who [00:45:00] are going to say, Hey, look around. Do you got any hot chocolate? Ice cream doesn't work for me. And, and so that's what's true with credibility.

That's not what's true with, with clarity. Clarity, it's if you say to somebody, Do you got clarity? They say yes. Okay, tell me what you do. Oh, by the way, see if you could do it in less than five seconds. You know, and five minutes later, they're still trying to tell you what they do. Even if they say they have clarity, they've missed the point, right?

So, when I created Credibility Nation, we have 450 people in there and I don't, I don't think I'm going to switch it to Clarity Nation, but when I created Credibility Nation, I wanted a pledge, something we can live by, which was in alignment with, the TEDx, which was focused on we, we are losing our humanity.

I'm tired of watching it happen. By the way, did he, did I give you enough time to find the pledge? Otherwise

Ross Romano: do have it here.

Mitchell Levy: Okay. I would love it if you read it. If I was just trying to create something that that when people would want to [00:46:00] join, they would know the characteristics of what Credibility Nation was.

It's, and, and I would love the world, before I die, my, my bigger purpose is to tip the scale between credible and the opposite of credible I call dubious. It's a fun way of saying they're not necessarily bad, it just depends on how dubious they are, right? The, I would love to be able to tip that scale. I couldn't do it by selling.

Credibility. I'm hoping that this works by actually showing clarity because with clarity I can generate quick and easy ROIs and that will bring us to the point because to have clarity and to do it right, you're doing it with in a credible way, but I'd love it if you read the the pledge it and and when you're listening to this, think to yourself, huh, wouldn't it be great If this is something that if you're running academic institutions, every one of the, every one of our graduates has sort of lived by [00:47:00] this motto.

Ross Romano: Yeah here's the pledge. Okay, I pledge to live credibly every day without hate in my life, I strive to be a good human and make this better, make this a better planet for myself, my family, and for other people's families in this generation, and the next, and I think hearing that, You know, it ties into this whole conversation we've had that there's a lot more to it, or at least a lot more about how we're defining and talking about credibility today than that narrow definition that maybe has been more traditional.

Mitchell Levy: By the way, thank you so much for I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember that. It's just been a while since I said it. I knew I wouldn't get it right. So I'm

Ross Romano: Luckily, I had looked at it easier earlier. It was easy to find. But I think that speaks a lot. And, you know, so if you're listening there and whatever your role is, maybe you're a teacher, if you're a school leader, maybe you're a leader or, you know, another type of business, [00:48:00] you're a parent all these various roles that we have, you know, I almost would distill it down to, you know, credibility and, and how I guess strong your credibility is in one way at least as being what is the likelihood that I can help you achieve the outcomes that you want to achieve, right?

Whether that's I can help you learn what you want to learn, so that you can have opportunities in the future, that I can help you, you know, understand your own self and your goals, that I can entertain you if it's, you know, some credibility is certainly can, can relate to entertainment professions and other things, right?

What's the likelihood that when you watch this? TV show, and at the end of 30 minutes you're going to say, good I'm glad I spent my 30 minutes on that, or that was totally not for me. Right, you [00:49:00] know, and maybe that's the person making the recommendation to you, but there's more to it again, but it's like that short form of that, it is personalized.

It's, it's not one size fits all that. There's some people in the world that are credible and there's other people who are not. It's about to whom you're credible. You know, what, what are they interested in? What do they want? What things are they evaluating? But then ultimately, I think also an attempt to build some common language and definition around this understanding that there's areas of life where it's purely subjective and, and not, you know, you know, of broader significance, how one person determines another person's credibility.

And there's areas in which it's hugely significant, right? And, you know, we're not gonna go down this whole rabbit hole, but you mentioned, like, politics before, right? And there might be some people [00:50:00] who, between accurate, known, and liked, the only thing they pay attention to is the liked. Oh, I like what this person says.

I, you know, I agree with them. And I'm not paying any attention to Do they actually have the skills and capabilities to affect any change? Do I actually know how committed they are and how much they care about the issues that they claim to stand for and things that matter to me, you know, whatever the case may be.

And there's big issues out there for. Not just our individual futures, but the future of our society, our planet, and so on, that requires that we really get smart about this and understand who are the voices that we should be listening to, right? Credibility is not just from the top down. It's also like, you know, we should, what are the things we need to be listening to younger generations about and [00:51:00] about their vision for the future and about how they want to create that and understand that too.

So there's so much to this conversation. Of course, it could go on and on and on, but but we, we, we shouldn't do that today. Maybe another time, but Mitchell. It's been such a great, you know, pleasure to have you here, and I know you have a lot of other resources, and we'll link to your website, MitchellLevy.

com, your book, your TED Talks. Is there anything in particular that you'd like our listeners to check out, to look for?

Mitchell Levy: Oh, you know, the, if this is intriguing from a, it's a planet and societal perspective, the, the TEDx is a great one. The, going to MitchellLevy. com gives you the ability to see what is the current programs we have. So feel free to, to pick up a, if you're interested in a 90 minute clarity session, we do that once a month.

If you are a coach or consultant or running a smaller business with one or two primary rainmakers, I have a [00:52:00] program that is a true Done With You program that does that. The thing that's interesting is, it's so funny, in the academic space, I'm there's a university, research university, that's, that's running an off site.

They brought me in to be a facilitator. Right? And so what I'm doing is I'm just acting in the role of facilitating, not just not just the event itself, but facilitating the direction they want to continue moving forward. going forward. And so if there's something on your mind either from your CEO needs or executive team needs, executive coaching, or there's an event going on, you could also go to MitchellLevy.

com, book time on my calendar and see if I'm a good fit or potentially in cases where it's the right fit for Ross or somebody else, I'm going to recommend them because it, it really is. It's a small world. It is. powerful to, to be the type of person who wants to recommend others, because if you could serve your [00:53:00] audience, they're going to come back and serve you.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And and to, you know, connected to another topic that I've been talking about with a lot of people lately. It hasn't necessarily been on the podcast, but it's been, it's just come up a lot and a lot of questions, which is the networking. I think credibility is like networking in the sense of, you know, invest the time and effort in building it when you don't need it, right?

Build your network when you don't need anything from them. When you can purely serve. And eventually when it's, when it's time where you, you need to leverage that network, you'll have it same thing with the credibility, you know, build your credibility through serving. And then when the time comes, when you're looking to build your own business or looking for a new job opportunity or whatever, you will have that credibility to work with.

So spend the time with this. If you find all this useful, interesting, valuable, we'll put the links below to Mitchell's website, [00:54:00] to where you can find the book. to his TEDx talks. And so you can find a bunch of resources there to follow through on. Please also, if you're not already, subscribe to The Authority on your preferred app.

We're all over the place wherever you're listening today. You can subscribe there and we'll have more interviews coming your way every week. Mitchell, thanks again for being

Mitchell Levy: Oh, hey, thanks for spreading my cred dust. I appreciate you.