Chapter + Verse

What is Chapter + Verse?

A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.

Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
come on and tell their real stories,

faith, failure, redemption, and the
occasional, "Lord, what are you doing?"

moment.

Some inspiring, some messy, and some that
probably should have come with a warning

label, because through every chapter
of every story, God is still writing.

And He's not afraid of a little chaos.

This is Jill.

And Carrie.

Let's turn the page.

All right, well, welcome to another
Chapter and Verse, and we're here

with my good friend Mark Events.

Um, I've known Mark, I don't
know, since I was 15, but I'm

not gonna tell how old I am now.

Yeah.

But that's a lot of years ago.

A lot of years.

Yeah, and.

His lovely wife, Christina,
um, is not here today, but

I've known her almost as long.

I think I met you first and then Tina,
but- Yes â¦ um, but yeah, you've, you

kind of mentored me in the ministry.

Well, you did mentor me in the ministry,
and we have a lot of funny, funny stories.

Yes, we do.

A lot.

Because we've been to two churches
together, and, um, yeah, and

we've got a lot of funny stories.

I couldâ¦

I thought of one, but I don't think
I can talk about it, but â¦ There's

probably a lot we shouldn't talk about.

Oh, but, um, yeah, it's- A lot of funny
stories â¦ those are the best stories.

We've had a lot of fun, fun
times and fun memories, and I

do remember, like, when I wasâ¦

I mean, I was a teenager when I
met you, and then we all went toâ¦

Tina had chicken pox, but couldn't go-
That's right â¦ to an amusement park,

um, like a youth trip, and you went, and
we rode we went to Texas to- Yes â¦ Six

Flags, and we rode all the roller coasters
and stuff together, and the Cliffhanger.

Yeah, the Cliffhanger was something.

Wow.

Because it would go allâ¦

I mean, I don't even know if it's still
there because I haven't been to Six

Flags in forever, but, um, it'd, like,
take you up nine stories or 10 stories-

Yeah, nine stories tall â¦ and then,
like, go out, like, and you're just

hanging there in midair and waiting for
the- And then does it just drop you?

It just drops you, but you hang there.

Oh.

I feel like you hang there a long time.

It's probably not a long time,
but then you just hear a click.

Yeah, the click is, was the worst.

Wow.

And Mark said it was
like the reverse rapture.

Yeah.

'Cause you're going up, up, up,
so- And then you're, like, feeling

glorious, and then all of a sudden- Yeah

you hear a click.

Yeah.

And then youâ¦

So- It's like a death plunge
â¦ growing up, we would, you know,

being from Michigan, we would
go to Cedar Point in Sandusky.

It's in Ohio.

It is, unfortunately.

The one you hate.

Yeah.

I'm not a fan of the Ohio, but it's okay.

It's all right.

Cedar Point was fine, but at Cedar
Point they had a, a ride very similar to

that, but they called it The Demon Drop.

Well- Oh, wow.

That one was- â¦ that would've been a,
that would've been a better word for it.

Yeah.

So.

I could never ride that
one- â¦ 'cause, you know, I'mâ¦

I, I don't do the sudden drop very well.

I like all the thrill rides, but- I, I
hated it, and somehow she got me back

on it again to go the second time.

Oh, my lord.

Yeah.

She's persuasive, that one.

I hated it worse the second time.

I feel like Brian Faulkner
was on that ride with us-

Yeah â¦ and then my friend Leslie.

I remember.

Yeah, Leslie was.

That's right.

Yeah.

Like everybody else Yeah.

And then, like, we went across
the street, I'm just gonna tell

this too- â¦ to Cheddar's.

Cheddar's is a pretty old
restaurant, and I know someâ¦

It's kind of new around this area now.

But, um, we went there
and they gave youâ¦

Of course, like we looked, I looked,
I remember specifically look-

feeling like a drowned rat, 'cause
we'd ridden water rides and stuff.

And it was kind of a nicer
restaurant back then.

It's kinda casual now, butâ¦

And walk in and there's these nice
dressed people, and I just wasâ¦

I went to the bathroom and I
was just thinking, "I'm the

ugliest person on the earth."

On the earth.

'Cause we were just like,
ugh, amusement park.

But I didn't, you know, I was very shy
overall, but I remember, like, they

gave us gigantic glasses of iced tea.

Yes.

And I was so excited about it,
but I promptly knocked it over and

drew all the attention to myself.

And I was like, "Well, good."

Introvert's nightmare over here.

Thank God for that, the tea part.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it was fun times.

But we have many more, like I said,
with the Simpson family and all-

Yes â¦ but we could go into a lot.

But today we're just gonna ask
you, like, what's a chapter you

wanna share, and just dive in.

. Well, one of my favorite scriptures that's
real- has been a real defining scripture

in my life is, uh, 2 Timothy 1:7, "For
God has not given us a spirit of fear,

but of power, love, and of a sound mind."

And that was so central, uh, in my
life to everything God has done.

And even where I'm at today, some 40-plus
years later, after I started meditating

on the scripture, I just found out
in my life there were a lot of, uh,

fear points that were holding me back.

Uh, and really fear here, if you go
into the Greek, um, for fear, this

word fear in 2 Timothy, it's more
along the lines of intimidation- Mm-hmm

which springs from the root of fear.

And so intimidation was keeping me from
doing things I needed to do in ministry,

and later on, things I needed to do
in, in finance and in wealth building

and business, those kinds of things.

And for me to move on in my life decade
to decade to decade, I had to really

just assimilate the scripture into my-
into my heart and let it do its work.

And it's just been a scripture.

We taught this to our kids.

I remember tucking them in night
after night and us praying this

with them because it was a problem
with, uh, with them as well as,

you know, some of them anyway.

And so this has just been kind of
a central scripture for our life

and, and for our kids, and just
declaring this over our life.

And there's been patterns where that God
would take me back to the scripture and

show me more revelation, or show me just
in my practical life, this is how you take

this scripture and go to another level.

Because, again, you're
suffering intimidation.

Mm-hmm.

Because the way God works in your life
is He takes you through, through levels.

And so when you're facing a new
level, which is, you know, there's

a lot of, um, opposition sometimes-
Yeah â¦ before you go through that level.

Um, you'll feel like you're not
qualified, you're not experienced enough.

You'll have all these thoughts and,
you know, about what could happen

wrong and- Mm-hmm â¦ how you can fail.

But it's really a, a God-given
opportunity for you to go up

another level in, in a lot of ways.

And so when I would come to these times
when God was about to exalt me, I would

have these old feelings come up, and I
would have to go back to the scripture.

And the scripture before it really
ties in, this is in context.

It says, "Therefore I remind you," Paul's
telling this to Timothy, "I remind you

to stir up the gift of God, which is in
you through the laying on of my hands."

And I realized that, you know, there
were a lot of gifts in my life that God

had given that were not being released.

I had the desires there.

I had the urges to step out in those,
but I was not doing it in some of these

areas because of intimidation, because
of what people would think would be the

biggest thing, or because I, I would
be afraid I would fail in some way.

Mm-hmm.

And so God used this scripture in my
life as just kind of one of the, I'd

say, my top three scriptures, um, to
transform my life, and, and that I,

again, that I keep coming back to.

Yeah.

That's really good.

I mean, Iâ¦

It's, it sounds like, after you say
it, it sounds so clear and basic.

Like, of course intimidation has
a root in fear, and that would

be relevant in the scripture.

But until you said it, I
wouldn't have thought that.

No, and I like the- Would never have
thought about it at all â¦ I like the

different levels because- Mm-hmm â¦ even
that brought back to memory, like,

being intimidated of people- Yeah

was probably my first level of
trying to get over, you know.

Now I don't feel like I have that anymore.

Yeah.

But there's other things that I'm
wor- still working on with fear.

The, the interesting correlation I
found was that, um, you know, if you

allow fear, then faith is choked back.

Mm-hmm.

You know, if, if you're operating in,
in fear or intimidation or any other

form of, of fear that you might wanna
mention, then it's, it's keepingâ¦

You know, the Bible says that we
walk by faith and not by sight.

Yeah.

It doesn't say we walk
by fear or intimidation.

Um, and so if we're allowing
fear, then faith is choked out.

It doesn't mean that it can't
come out, it's that you have to

decisively deal with the situation.

You have to take authority over
the fear, and that's, that was

the process in my life that, you
know, it took a while for this.

Um, I would, I would say that, you know,
the Bible talks about in 2 Corinthians

10:3-5 about, you know, the weapons
of our warfare are mighty through God

in the casting down of strongholds.

And it goes on to say even
down to every thought.

But I, I was dealing with some
strongholds of fear in some areas

of my life, and I'm not ashamed to
say that because God set me free.

Mm-hmm.

You know, God set me free and, and
the freedom was there all along.

The moment I got saved, I was freed from
that, but my mindset didn't catch that

understanding until I- Yeah, you have to
walk in your freedom â¦ I studied it.

Yeah.

I had to get right teaching in my life.

I had to, you know, look at what the word
of God says versus what I was afraid of.

I had to look at God's promises versus,
you know, what had appeared and the

feelings that were there attached to it.

And so I, I would say almost every major
thing I've done in my life, which seems

like a lot from thinking back to when
we first met each other- Yeah â¦ if

you would've told me then, "Hey,
you're gonna do this, this, and this.

You're gonna, you know,
you're gonna pastor a church.

You're gonna have a coffee shop.

You're gonna have a vending business.

You're gonna operate for 20 years.

You're gonna do all these things.

Have real estate."

I mean, I would've say,
"You're, you're a loon.

I mean, you're an absolute-"
Mm-hmm â¦ "loon."

Yeah.

Because there's no way that could happen.

But God would keep bringing me
opportunities, and with the opportunity

I'm like, there would be an excitement,
there would be a, a passion there.

There would be an anointing.

You know, I would â¦ That would come
on me to feel like a, or just for,

for lack of a better term, you don't
wanna use a word, the word anointing,

I would feel just empowered by God.

You need to do this.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

This is, this is something
I'm bringing to you.

And then in the midst of trying
to do that, then the fear and

the intimidation would come.

Mm-hmm.

And again, you have to learn how to
take God's word and, and walk with

Holy Spirit, with the Holy Spirit
in your life to, to overcome that.

And by doing so, you,
you go to new levels.

Mm-hmm.

And so in my life, it's kinda worked, it's
kinda been maybe a little different, but

like, you know, when I was in my, around
20, at around 30, at around 40, at around

50, and now around 60, like every 10
years of my life, there seems to have been

some pretty major changes within just a
year or two of those, those big numbers.

Yeah.

And with each new level, it's,
it's like I'm a kid again.

You know, it's like I'm, I'm starting
over when you see the magnitude of

what, what could be and what it's gonna
require of you and, and what you're

gonna have to risk in faith or, and
now risk financially to- Yeah â¦ to

do what you feel God's bringing you.

Um, and, and now I get
opportunities that come all the

time that, you know, aren't God.

Yeah.

So you have to be careful that you
don't choose something- Counterfeit.

For sure â¦ you know, because when
you're successful, people want,

they wanna draw on that, you know?

They want- Yeah.

Mm-hmm â¦ they want to, um, you
know, in, in good faith a lot of

times bring you things that it's
not necessarily what you need to do.

Right.

So we've had to say no to a lot of
opportunities the last, um- the last

few, uh, years because God was in a,
a building, a growth stage in what

He'd given us in our hands already,
so we couldn't keep doing what we

were doing in the area of business.

I mean, now we had to back up and be
obedient and use wisdom to, to use this,

this understanding He gives us on how to
run, run a business and build it greater.

Yeah.

Build a, build the leadership into it.

Build the, the structure, the
foundation bigger, uh, for

what was coming down the line.

So, um, I don't know if
this is making sense or not.

No, it is.

Yeah.

But- I mean, it's really good.

Like, what, um, I think a lot
of people, and we've mentioned

this in other podcasts, wonder
how you hear the voice of God.

I'm asked that a lot, "How
do you know it's God?"

Um, what would be your advice to them
if they're like, "Well, I don't know.

Is it God?

I don't know."

Um, what do you think?

Well, I think theâ¦

That's kind of a loaded
question, um, because God is

speaking to us all the time.

Yeah.

It's are, are we hearing?

Mm-hmm.

And that, that helped me to understand
that I'm not trying to get Him to speak,

He's automatically speaking- Right

to me because I'm His son.

Mm-hmm.

Or His daughter if it's,
if it, your, in your case.

But He's always speaking, and so I,
I really think of it in terms of,

like, I don't know how many, how
young your listeners are, but the

radio you would tune the stations.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you would turn the dial.

Yeah.

Um, and, and you would, you would
tune in to a certain station.

And in the old, old days, you had these
analog dials- â¦ that you would turn.

Yeah.

If you didn't get it right on
the station- Yes â¦ you would

get, like, half on and half off.

So you would get this â¦ with somebody
talking- Yeah â¦ at the same time.

And so, you know, my, I, I took the
challenge on that God is always speaking

to me, and so let me get my heart
in a position that I can hear Him.

Mm-hmm.

That's good.

That might take me a few days
if I'm going through something

traumatic, um, or, um, there's a, a
lot of understanding I need to get.

It's gonna be a process.

Yeah.

But generally speaking, it, number one,
it has to line up with the word of God.

100%, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

You know, He's not gonna
tell me to go kill somebody.

Right.

You know, I'm sorry, He's not.

Yeah.

So, you know, it has to line up
with the word of God, but beyond

that, oftentimes when I'm reading a
scripture, the scripture will just

jump out and become alive and living.

I'm just like, "Wow, I can't believe
I've never read that before."

Right.

Like, like one somebody sent me this
morning, he sent me one about, uh, our

life and, and, uh, our business ministry
that we have, and I was like, "I can't,

I, I don't ever remember reading that."

Yeah.

But it was just so right on.

So that's a great way that
the Lord speaks to us.

Um, and when I'm making a decision, the
peace of God leads as Colossians 3, I

think it's 16, talks about how the peace
of God guards, uh, or, or that we're led

by the, we're led by the peace of God.

It calls the shots in our life.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so that's a great indicator
of when God's speaking to you,

if you feel peace, especially
continued peace about something.

Yeah.

If I'm making a major decision, if
somebody comes to me and says, you know,

uh, "I've g- I've got this, you know,
this fancy car I'll sell you for half the

price, or I've got this piece of property
you can have for a, you know, a heartbeat.

I never make a decision
on the spot like that.

I will always, um, take that and pray
about that, run the numbers on it, do my

due diligence in the natural, but then
let the, the spiritual be the overriding-

Yeah â¦ that makes the call on it.

And do I have peace about that?

And oftentimes while I'm evaluating
these, these pro- different processes

about hearing the voice of God, he will
send me other forms of confirmation,

especially on m- on major things.

Yeah.

Like I'll come across a teaching
I hear online or on the, on TV.

Um, I'll hear somebody in a restaurant
sometimes say something, you know- Mm-hmm.

Yeah â¦ they, they
weren't even talking to me.

This has happened multiple times.

They weren't even talking to me,
but I just happened to overhear what

they said and it confirmed something.

Um, I've had somebody talking to
my face to me, and we weren't even

talking about the situation, but
they said something that I knew

that was the answer to my problem.

Yeah.

It's so, so strange sometimes.

But if you put your heart in a position,
if you prime the pump, if you will, or you

put your heart in a position of, of being
ready to hear God, you'll be amazed at how

many different ways God does speak to you.

Mm-hmm.

And I will back test things sometimes.

I know when there's a lot of back
testing that goes on in, in social

media and your ads you run and
to see what's, you know- Right.

Yeah, what's landing-
â¦ produces- â¦ what isn't.

Yeah â¦ and what doesn't.

But you, you can back test the
spirit of God talking to you.

Like, there's times when I'll,
I'll do something and it doesn't

turn out like I want, you know.

Um, or I â¦ Something bad happens
that you weren't expecting.

Mm-hmm.

And I'll go back and I'll
think, now, did God speak to me?

And I'll go back and I'll just, you know,
get before him in, in worship or just get

quiet, and I'll start thinking about back
to the time when I first started wanting

to do that or making decisions- Mm-hmm

to do that.

Was there anything in my heart?

And oftentimes I will find, yes, there
was not a perfect peace there to do that.

Yeah.

There was a check there, or there was, um
â¦ You know, the peace wasn't established.

It was more fear than
peace, and I did it anyway.

It didn't work out right.

And so sometimes I will back
test that, uh, on certain

decisions- That's a good idea

just to learn- It really is â¦ just
to learn how God talks to you better.

So then if you're in a mess, then you have
to like, "Okay, God, I did not listen, and

now you have to help me fix it," you know?

Right.

Mm-hmm.

And there's a, there's a lot of
ways to, to avoid, um, trials and

tribulations with your prayers.

Um, you know, just submitting
to God's will will keep you

out of a lot of trouble.

Yeah.

Uh, but also, you know, praying and just
I ask the Lord to go before me- Mm-hmm

â¦ uh, in, in all that concerns us, you know?

My kids, my- Yeah â¦ my ministry,
my business, my family, my health.

I ask him to go before me.

That's one of the things in the
Bible you see over and over, how that

he went before his people- Mm-hmm

and prepared the way.

And some of those times he
would even deal with the enemies

before they even got there.

Yeah.

So if you get into a posture or position
where- You know, you're asking him for

those things and receiving those things,
then there's some battles you won't have

to fight because number one, you were
obedient, and number two, you took the

time to pray for him to go before you.

And so those battles you never face.

Yeah.

But there's â¦ I mean, it's not,
you're not gonna get to a spot where

you never face any bat- any battles
because Jesus said, you know, "In this

world you're gonna have tribulation."

Mm-hmm.

But I would rather have as,
as small a number of- Yes.

Yeah â¦ tribulation- Right

incidents in my life as possible,
uh, instead of creating them

myself because of- Right.

Only the ones God wants me to do- Yes.

â¦ as opposed to the ones of my own design.

Yeah.

'Cause when you're living for him, I
mean, there's gonna be times where,

you know, you're, you're gonna have
to, you're gonna have to stand for

him and, and stand for his ways,
and there's gonna be some conflict.

But there's other times where we
just get in a hurry, we get into, um,

what the Bible calls the arm of the
flesh or the strength of the flesh.

Mm-hmm.

And we, we try to bulldoze into it and
just fix it on our own, and, you know,

just sometimes manipulate or sometimes
just, you know, chew people out to get

things done and that's, that's not right.

That's not God's way.

Right.

It's fine to be firm, it's fine to
make decisions, it's fine to say,

"This is not happening anymore.

This is my decision."

That's fine.

But when you're trying to make
something happen as opposed to waiting

and letting God go before you or give
you instruction on what you need to

do, then that's where you can, you
can short-circuit your victory, or

you can just add extra battles along
the way that you don't need to fight.

Yeah.

I feel like also inaction
can do that as well.

Like, if you are hearing from God-
That's a good point â¦ to go and

do, and it's just comfortable-
Yeah â¦ to be where you are.

Well, like with Jonah.

You're short-changing yourself.

Yeah.

The jerk Jonah.

Yep.

Yeah, he just wouldn't do it.

Yes.

And then he created problems for himself.

Yes.

Yeah.

So that's really good.

That gives â¦ That's a lot to, like,
think about and chew on, and yeah, I

think that's probably the best answer.

Like, when people, when people
ask me, that's what I'm gonna say.

And I have said, like, it's hard
not to hear God when you start

hearing him because- Right.

He- Well, and when you ask him- Yeah

like, "God, make it plain."

Yeah.

"Like, I need you to make it plain."

Yes.

"Don't, don't speak to me in riddles.

Don't â¦ I'm not looking
for, you know, hieroglyphics

on the side of the road here.

I'm- No.

"I need for you to make it plain
obvious 'cause I don't wanna miss it.

I don't wanna miss you."

But then really pay attention.

So one of the other things I wanted
to mention that has really helped

me in the last, uh, 20 years or
so is, I heard a minister say, um

And he was really gifted in following
the Holy Spirit in his life, and, uh,

he was, he was a full-time minister.

And he said he used this red light,
green light principle, which is really

just a, a principle based off the, the
peace- Mm-hmm â¦ principle we talked

about from Colossians 3 a moment ago.

But he would, he would pray and
he would bring it before the Lord.

He would set his heart, um, you know,
before Him in making this decision,

and he would just sense, do I â¦ When
I think about making this decision and

going forward, and I see myself making
this decision this one certain way,

let's for say a yes, like I wanna do
this, do I feel like there's a, a green

light or a red light in my spirit?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, am I f- am I sensing a
go or a, or a hold in my spirit?

Yeah.

And he says that, you know, if you
get a green light, a lotta times it

feels like, you know, warm, you know,
gentle honey- Mm-hmm â¦ flowing down.

Mm-hmm.

That's because the Holy Spirit's a
spirit of peace, and that's, that's a

good example I think of maybe picking
up the peace of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah.

And so I make the decision to go
forward when I, I have the green light.

And once I make the decision,
uh, I keep evaluating it.

And there's gonna be things come up that
will war against that decision, but if

my overall abiding peace and, and seeking
the Lord about something is to do it,

then I stay engaged and I do that, and
I listen for any new direction the Lord

gives me about how to adjust things.

Because it's â¦ We, we tend to think
that it's, you go from point A to point B

in a straight line, and it's more like a
butterfly flying from point A to point B.

Mm-hmm.

Because sometimes people change situations
and, you know, you can't â¦ You know,

you're not in control over people-
Right â¦ you know, unless they're

your employee to a certain degree.

But when other people are involved,
especially other people's wills

are involved, sometimes there's a,
okay, you've moved forward, you've

made the right decision, but let's
wait here just a second for other,

for something else to develop here.

Right.

We're waiting on something,
somebody else to get in place.

A lotta times it may be the
provision that you need for

that place that you're going to.

Yeah.

Um, or, or wisdom to come, things
to develop, you know, so you

can go- Mm-hmm â¦ further on.

And we just have to be-
Mm-hmm â¦ sensitive to Him.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's really good.

Um, going back to, like, being
intimidated, I think a lot of, um,

especially younger people, there's such a
spirit now t- of, like, anxiety and, like

I feel like because of- Yeah â¦ you
know- Social media â¦ uh, social

media- Yes â¦ and the use of phones,
they are even intimidated much more

to talk to people and to â¦ I've
never seen anything like it really.

Yeah.

Like, well, just for example,
like, we were out to eat and Drew

was like, "I don't want to order."

And I was like, "Why?"

"I just â¦ Couldn't you say it?"

And I was like, "You're 13.

I mean, you can order."

Yeah.

And I make him.

Yeah.

If you wanna eat, you're
gonna order, buddy.

But when you're talking about that, I'm
like, that is such a common fear- For his

age and, you know, above, I still think,
like- Yeah â¦ and we see that with, um- I

think, like, even Chloe's age, the ideaâ¦

You know, we didn't used to have
a- And she's Chloe- Chloe's 21.

Yeah.

She'll be 22 here this summer.

But, like, we didn't used to
have the term social anxiety.

Yeah.

Like, y- you had, like, "I'm shy.

I, you know, I'm not super
comfortable with that," whatever.

But, like, you still were able, because
you had to, function inside of society.

Right.

And now it's, there's almost, like, an
expectation for everyone to have a certain

degree of social anxiety and- Yeah â¦ and
to accommodate the social anxiety-

Yeah â¦ instead of saying, "No, that's
not how we, that's not how we live."

You know?

And, like, you need to stop
saying, "I'm socially awkward."

Exactly.

Like, don't make those
claims on yourself, I think.

Right.

Exactly.

Stop.

Yeah, like, use positive words, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I mean, 'cause I feel like we all go
through those awkward phases- But we're

not, 'cause- â¦ because we're growing.

But- â¦ we don't know either.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, so y- I mean, just to be
transparent about it, like, I would, I

would require Chloe to do stuff, Owen too.

But Owen had the advantage of going
through occupational therapy, 'cause he

had all kinds of other stuff going on.

But his occupational therapist
was great about making him, like,

learn how to do these things.

And part of it, I think, is we
don't have, the kids don'tâ¦

They're distracted by all of the things,
so they aren't watching their parents

make doctor's office phone calls.

They aren't making, you know,
they aren't watching them make the

grocery list and go grocery shopping.

We just, they're distracted.

Their face is in a tablet or in
a phone or with headphones on or

whatever, and so they, they don't
learn by seeing and by watching you do.

They just don't have any point of
reference for it, and then they think,

"I can't," instead of saying, "How do I?"

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But, yeah, that's- And there's
an expectation of perfection

that comes with it as well.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, this picture that comes out on
social media of everybody living their

very best life, there's- Not really true.

Right.

You know?

It isn't true.

It's not.

It's just fabricated.

And I, I think that started as soon as we
started stuff like Zynga, if that's- Yes.

Yep â¦ and MySpace, which
is, you know, awful and- Yeah.

But yeah, that's true.

Yeah, there's a normal- Like- â¦ amount
of- That- â¦ nerves that comes with stuff

â¦ you have to let the Holy Spirit come in
and, like, make you bold and, like, get

you through the fear of things like that.

And, like, when you were saying
different levels, "Yeah, I've

been through a lot of that."

And now I'm not gonna say I'm not scared
of anything, but, like, looking back,

I've conquered so many fears just by being
like, "I can't, I can't be like this."

He teaches me, you know, how to overcome
those, and that was really justâ¦

This has been, like, kind of eye-opening
so far, like the verses and everything.

Like, you hear them all the time.

But I feel like especially in this
season, like, you open the Bible and

you, you've read something a million
times, but it's just coming moreâ¦

It just comes more to life.

Like, oh, I've read this so many
times, but in this day and age,

it's like jumping out off the page.

And, you know, I really encourage
people to read a real Bible

sometime because there'sâ¦

I don't know.

There's just something different about it.

I know it's all on our phones- Yeah

and that's fine, but- Holding a
tangible book is- But it's, I don't

know, supernatural â¦ satisfying.

Yeah.

It just feels supernatural.

But anyway, I didn't wanna interrupt
you with your stuff, butâ¦

No, that's, that's great.

And I, I really feel like the secret, uh,
or one big secret in changing your life

is what you're putting into your heart.

I mean, the heart- Mm-hmm â¦ is
created to respond.

God made our hearts, which there's
big theological debates over exactly

what it is, if it's the soul and
the spirit or, or just the spirit,

but we're not gonna get into that.

But we'll just say the, you
know, the internal part of

you that- Yeah â¦ God made.

I think mostly the soul when I think
of the heart, which is your- Mm-hmm

mind, your will, and emotions.

Mm-hmm.

God made that heart to
respond to what's put into it.

He, he made us that way, and
we can't- Yeah â¦ change that.

And so it's, it's very important that
we're wanting to make changes in our

life, that we're monitoring what weâ¦

Actually we're, we're placing
in our heart what we want to get

out in the future, like what the
harvest we want in the future.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

And so for me, what that looked like
was when I realized, hey, you're,

you know, you're suffering from all
these fear symptoms and intimidation,

and insecurity was in there as well.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I had to change what was in my
heart, and so I had to put into my

heart a whole lot more of what His
scripture said about who I was.

Yeah.

And I had to- That's an excellent
point â¦ align that with

teaching that did the same thing.

Yeah.

And so I didn't just get my
teaching once a week when I

went to church, or twice a week.

Actually, then I was doing the preaching.

Mm-hmm.

I was, I was the pastor.

But I was listening to lots of
messages through the week, um,

reading books along the lines.

John Bevere wrote a book about
intimidation back around 2000 that was

really influential in, um, in helping me.

Uh, there were, there were others,
but, but the main thing I wanna

emphasize is that, that anybody
can change, um, who you are.

You know, Abraham Lincoln said
something, this was a, a basic

quote, is that, "The best way to
predict the future is to create it."

Mm-hmm.

I just used that quote in a series- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ I, I ended at
church a few weeks ago.

And you create it by what
you put into your heart.

Because, you know, out of the abundance
of the heart, the mouth begins to speak.

Mm.

And so when you place life-giving
things in your heart, all of a sudden

life begins to come out of your words.

You know, your, your thoughts
begin to change because it's

reflecting on something different
that's been put into your heart.

Mm-hmm.

And so when, when you, when you start
that process of placing different

things into your heart, you're gonna
have a different outcome down the road.

Yeah.

Because we're really just, you know,
who we are today is a product of

the, the choices and the things that
we put into our heart in the past.

Right.

We really are.

And we have to take, you know,
take responsibility for that.

Because, you know, John 10:10, you
know, "The thief cometh to steal,

kill, and destroy, but I've come
that you might have life and that

you might have it abundantly."

That is the dividing line
of the Bible, in my opinion.

If something is trying to come
on me to destroy me, it's not

God, according to John 10:10.

Right.

Yeah.

Uh, and, and God is there to
help you turn that around.

But if you're wondering, "Is this
God bringing this on me or this

is the devil bringing this on me?"

Then you're not gonna have a confidence
and a faith to stand up in who God has

already made you and fight this thing.

And so it's, it's very important.

That's one of the things
I put into my heart.

I changed, like, you know, um, when
things come on me like this, "Is

this God, you know, causing me?"

Mm-hmm.

And, and, you know, nine times out
of 10 it was a decision I had made

in my past that was causing it.

Yeah.

And the other 10th was, you know,
maybe an, an enemy attack or something

that was coming on me at that time.

Right.

But, uh, you know, what you put in
your heart is so critical to who- Yeah

â¦ you're going to become in the future.

And if you really wanna change, then
you have to take time for heart care.

Right.

Heart care is so important.

Um, and part of heart care
is, again, what you put in.

You know, a lot of people really
respond to praise and worship

music, and so doing that regularly.

You know, for me it was, um, it
was more just finding a time every

day where that I would, uh, you
know, I would be alone with him.

Besides the teaching I was putting in,
you know, on a regular basis, finding that

one time every day, not necessarily early,
but where I would slip away and I would

begin to, to just pray about my future.

I would begin to, to pray about â¦ There
were things in my heart that I'm

walking in today that came out in
this early 2000s time, that I would,

I would pray these things out.

I would take a scripture And say,
"Well, this is what you said.

Thisâ¦"

You know, the, because the
Bible is the word of God.

Right.

And, and, and the word of
God is the will of God.

Right.

And so if I'm praying the word
of God over my life- Yeah â¦ I'm

praying the will of God into my life.

I don't have to question that.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

So I began doing that, and that just
influenced my heart, my, my thoughts,

my, my feelings even began to change down
the line after I'd done this for a while,

and I started acting like a new person.

Uh- It- â¦ new confidence, and
I started walking in new things.

I mean, we started having-
Yeah â¦ real estate deals come to us.

We had this business opportunity we
were in for 20 years and, uh, I started

meeting, you know, all these people
outside the church that I didn't

really know a lot outside the church.

But I started meeting bankers and,
uh, you know, uh, uh, accounting

people, and started meeting, um,
uh, finance people and attorneys

and, uh, other business owners.

When I, I stepped out into that, that
was birthed from changing my heart-

Right â¦ and dealing with the fear,
you know, that, dealing with this

intimidation was in there as well.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, I mean, that's the, that's
a principle of reaping and sowing.

Like, you, you s- so-
you reap what you sow.

If you're gonna sow into your self God's
word and God's will, y- that's what you're

gonna, that's what you'll reap later.

Yeah.

That's really good, and I think it's
really important to say it out loud.

Like the- Yes â¦ not just read it
and think about it, but say those

promises out loud over your life
so that every being can hear it.

Yes.

You know?

Not toâ¦

And I know God can hear your prayers
and your thoughts and all that, but

sometimes you need to say things out loud
so the enemy knows where you stand, too.

Yes.

So yeah, that's really, really good.

I like it a lot.

There's anything else, orâ¦

'Cause we're g- we can ask you
some questions before we go on.

Yes.

Go ahead and ask them.

Okay.

Um, so in your life, what do you
think would be, who, besides, you

know, your family, was there someone
that gave you, like, just some

life-changing advice, um, about
anything that, that was godly, you know?

I know your parents were, you
know, very, very, you know, walk

with the Lord and- Yes â¦ very
wise in business endeavors, too.

Yeah, so there were different
people along the way.

I c- I always seem to have
somebody along the way.

Yeah.

And sometimes it was a person, you
know, a person in the flesh there that

I knew, and sometimes it was a book.

Yeah.

Or it was somebody I was listening
to, a tape series back in the day.

Back tape series.

I love it.

A cassette- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ a cassette tape back
in the day, and then a CD.

Mm-hmm.

And then now those are gone by the
wayside- Yeah, yeah â¦ and online stuff.

But, um, yeah, my parents were,
you know, great shapers of- Mm-hmm

uh, of my life.

And then after that, I just had various
youth pastors and- Mm-hmm â¦ pastors

and, um, there were, you know, other
people in my, in my mid to late

20s that came into the scene that
were brand-new That, um, just began

encouraging me in a certain direction.

And those series of encouragements,
and I would stay close to them and,

you know, stay in contact with them.

But those series of encouragements
kinda led to the opening of, uh, us

moving from Russellville to go to, to
Batesville to pastor a church there.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, even there I got
connected with more people.

Um, so, uh, there's not even really
one person- Yeah â¦ but a multitude

of teachers and, um, some just
friends that would just pray with

me and, and others that were- Yeah

I would say true mentors, that
we were actively, uh, meeting

and talking on a regular basis.

Yeah.

But so important.

So important.

It is.

It really is.

And to like keep in
contact with those people.

If God places that person in your
life, I feel like those special

people are there for a lifetime.

Like, you can- Yeah.

Well, I feel like we could call on you at
any time- Oh, yeah â¦ and ask y'all to

pray or, you know, g- get advice about.

And I have done that a lot with
you and, you know, and even others.

But definitely you, 'cause you're the
one that- Yeah â¦ you and Tina have been

there since the beginning, I feel like,
with, you know, our marriage and- Yeah

our life and my ministry and
all that stuff, so you know.

Do you have any other questions before we
get to- I don't think so â¦ funny one?

Jill's gonna ask you a, well,
it's not funny, but like

just what we ask everybody.

Oh, the Bible story one?

Yeah.

Okay.

So, um, if you could go back in
time and observe any Bible story,

we typically say aside from the
crucifixion and the resurrection,

'cause as hard as it would be to
watch- Yeah â¦ the crucifixion- Yeah

I mean, I feel like every Christian
would, would want to- To watch

it, yeah â¦ see that once.

Once.

You know?

Once, maybe.

Um, what, what Bible story
would you wanna observe?

I think the Red Sea crossing would be-
That's a good one â¦ really awesome-

That's a really good one â¦ to see.

Yeah.

Um, wow, that, that would've had to have
been powerful to see one to three million

people walk through that, uh- Dry land

yeah.

Yeah.

That would've been powerful to see.

So I, I would say that.

I wonder how long it took 'em.

Yeah.

Does it say how long?

I don't, I don't remember if it says.

I don't remember.

I don't think it does, but you, I just
wonder- I just feel like how wideâ¦

Does it say how wide it was?

It just says it, it parted.

So it makes me wonder like if there
were one to three million people and

they had to get away at a decent, a
decent clip, you know what I mean?

Somewhere.

Oh, they probably- Yeah â¦ like
couldn't go very fast.

But the army was coming up behind 'em.

Yeah.

So you know, like it had to have been like
super wide so that they could all- Yeah

get across in like a r- in like not
a n- not a narrow- Yeah â¦ bunch.

But that would've been really,
really cool to see, so.

And I feel like the dry land had to
have been like packed, regular land.

Like, it couldn't have been like
sandy, you know, 'cause it's hard

to walk- Yeah â¦ through sand.

Right.

That's true.

Take a while.

I mean- But I don't know what the, what
the bottom of the ocean would be like.

I don't either.

I don't like the ocean.

Without- We've discussed this, but-
Without water I hate the ocean.

She hates sand.

She hates everything about the ocean.

I hate all of it.

Iâ¦

The beach, I hate all of it.

Sorry, y'all.

I know that's really not- You
like the sounds of the ocean.

Yeah.

I- But you don't like
anything else about it.

Mm-mm.

I don't like it.

Your kids like it, but you don't, huh?

Yeah, I mean, I feel like, yeah,
my whole family, but I'm like, eh.

I mean, it's not fun to walk on sand.

It'sâ¦

It takes a lot out of you.

Like, I remember my first beach,
beach trip, I was all excited,

and then I started walking on it,
and I was like, "This is no fun."

And then it gets everywhere,
and then just like, no.

Pass.

I'll sit and look at it from a distance.

Yeah.

Carrie's the one that wants to be on
the beach trip, as long as there's,

like, a condo- Can be- â¦ with a
balcony that she can see it That's me.

Look at it and- That's me, too.

I have to be able to-
Yeah â¦ look at it I don'tâ¦

I mean, you carry all the stuff down
there, and then you're just worn out,

and then it's hot, and I don'tâ¦

Unless you're, like, one of those
ritzy people that can rent the little

pavilions or, like, put it up, but then
that's a lot of work, and I'm like, eh.

And Iâ¦

And don't get me wrong, I,
usually my vacations are packed

full of, like, adventure, and so
I'm not resting anyway, butâ¦

and that may be another problem.

Like, once you get there, like, what
are you gonna do, just lay there?

And roast?

Yeah.

I don't wanna do that.

Carrie- That's not fun.

I'm not trying to cook myself here.

Okay, one more question.

Um, if you could have any superpower,
like what superheroes have,

um, what would it be, and why?

I think I'd want to have what
Flash has where you, so you

can go one place to another-

in zero seconds because, man-
Yeah â¦ slow drivers get on my nerves.

You know, and the time that it gets
from one place to another, I'm, I

am s- My, my day looks horrendous.

I mean, there are so many meetings and
things I do in the course of a day.

Yeah.

So that would be a great superpower.

Yeah.

No one's said that one before.

No one has.

Like Flash.

The closest we've come is teleportation.

Yeah.

But- Yeah, and we talked about- But
Flash is basically even, even better.

Yeah.

Like- Yeah, like on, um- That's the end
of our series Like on the bread of life.

What'd you say?

Like on the dang theory when
he dresses up as Flash, and

he's like, "Hang on, I'll go."

And then he just, like, turns and
turns back, and he's like, "I'm back."

So funny.

Oh.

Well, thanks for joining us, and someti-
You're welcome â¦ sometime we'll have

Tina on, and she- Yeah â¦ can share, too.

But, um, I really appreciate it.

And- Yeah â¦ maybe sometime we can
just come on and tell church stories.

Oh, that'd be fun.

Oh, my gosh.

Like- Recollections
of- â¦ Pete and Stella.

Oh, I wasn't there for that
story, but, like- We'll have

to- Isn't that their names?

Pete and Stella.

Yes, he is.

Yeah, I remember that, those names.

But we'll, we'll come back and-
Greatest people in the world.

Yeah.

We'll come back and we'll s- talk
about, like, where were those revivals

that you and Randy Campbellâ¦

Where were they?

They were up at, uh, Falling Water.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

I couldn't remember that name.

But yeah, like, some of those stories
are hilarious- Yeah â¦ too, so.

Yes.

Yeah, if we can have both of y'all
on at the same time, that would

be- Oh, yeah â¦ really funny.

That, that would be something.

Randy Campbell, we're coming for you.

We're coming for you, Randy Campbell.

Well, thanks for joining
us, and- Thank you.

I appreciate you asking me.

Thank you very much.

Yeah.

We will see you next time.

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