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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
I have something to tell you.
Okay.
Please.
I heard from someone.
So you know how you've been all excited about doing your research for the podcast?
Yeah.
How much do they hate it?
No.
They said the last three podcasts have been their favorite yet.
Really?
Yeah.
And they really like the structure.
They like the questions and I didn't want to tell you because I, you know, you wouldn't take it well.
You'd take it too good
So I like to not tear you down, but I like to take you down a little bit.
Jess doesn't like to build me up.
She likes to tear me down.
Uh built up.
That's what I'm realizing.
Is a need to be built up.
You know what, maybe that's a mask for my true feelings and my true feelings are sadness, but I have to mask it with being confident in myself and if I didn't do that maybe I would start crying.
Last night.
Okay, I have I'll stop here and then Okay, literally.
Last night.
It's a cry for help.
You, I'm not gonna, I won't give all this details, but we had some friends over.
We got to talking about childhood trauma, intergenerational cycles.
And I heard you say, yeah, you know, there's a lot of anger in my family, but really it was a mask for, you know, anxiety and sadness.
And I didn't even prompt it.
You just said that on your own
Yeah, but to be fair, we have had that conversation a bunch of times before.
But I was so proud of you for just saying it.
As much as I pretend not to ever listen to you?
Apparently no, he does listen.
Listen more than you might think.
I should have been secretly recording that conversation, but
He outside of the podcast talked about sadness and anxiety underneath anger.
What do you think I talk about with my buddies when we go out?
This.
This is uh an emotionally intelligent man, folks.
I just feel like
Finally.
I spotted you for once.
Okay?
For w yeah, for once.
See, there you go.
That's the first time you've built me up in a while.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
I have that's like this small morsel to feed off of for
However long until we get to the future.
Yeah, yeah.
People are gonna think either I'm being too dramatic or that you are just really mean to me.
No, remember the feedback that we got the one time that I'll never forget?
It's like you just
are seeking my praise and approval the whole time.
Yeah.
There was some feedback on that that you're going to do.
Yeah, a comment that you
You know, I love listening, but it just seems like Scott's always seeking Jess's approval on everything.
Well, maybe that's because I'm a broken human, whoever said that.
Mm-hmm.
And I just need approval to feel better about myself.
Do you ever get to start this episode?
I've been waiting forever.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents.
Jess and
got.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
This is an episode all about me today.
It's on boredom.
Why?
Because you're always bored?
Yeah.
I want to start by setting the scene.
Oh boy.
When you think back on your own childhood, is there a moment or event where you have the clearest memory of being bored?
It's a really good question
And I'm sure the biggest time that I can think of like being bored to a point where it was like, I'm annoyed that I'm bored, like I really don't have anything to do.
would be on long car rides with my family because my parents would take us camping or they'd take us out east or we'd go to visit my dad's cousin and those would all be like three to
six plus hour drives, right?
I mean going to Prince Edward Island would take eighteen hours.
Yeah, exactly.
That was really long.
So I think if I have to think about when I was bored as a kid.
That would be probably my biggest memory and I remember being really annoyed about it because my brothers would often play their little gaming devices and then my parents would talk to themselves.
But I got car sick, so I couldn't read, couldn't play a game, couldn't really do anything.
But I'm still like that.
So I just kind of sit in the backseat and just like look out the window.
So that's probably the most bored I would remember being.
How
Did you respond in that situation?
And what do you think that tells us about how children process boredom and downtime?
I would be very internal.
And I still am.
And see, it's hard because I think the way my brain is wired is I actually crave being alone and downtime and time to just think.
So in as much as I was bored, I think my mind would just start to process things.
I'd start to think about the day.
I'd like write songs in my mind.
I'd
write poems in my mind, I'd like dream about things, I'd just have different ideas, I'd play out scenarios in my head.
So for me, like as much as I hated being bored at first, especially when you're like trapped in a car
I would end up enjoying it eventually because I would just get caught up in my own thoughts and dreams and songs and That's actually true.
Like you'd be twelve hours into your drive and you'd be feeling
Pretty good about it.
Like I think eventually yeah, I'd get really annoyed, and then I'd get grumpy.
Like once I got kind of sick of myself, then I would just be like
Dud, pull over.
I want to go to McDonald's.
I have to go pee.
Yeah, right.
Stop the truck.
And then I'd start probably annoying my brothers just to like get something to happen.
You know, I'd just probably just kick one of my brothers or something and be like, come on, let's go.
Talk to me.
Or I'd complain to my mom and then I'd be annoyed with her for talking to me.
And
My poor mother.
My poor mother who listens to a lot of these episodes.
Like her and I were talking the other day 'cause my oldest, our oldest is
Me.
We are very similar.
And sometimes the way she treats me is the way I would treat my mother.
And I just am like, oh boy, this is a lot.
So I probably don't help that because I mean
Often I'm kind of chuckling in the background.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't help.
So that's probably what I would do.
Now let's fast forward to your work as a therapist.
I have no idea if you ever see kid clients for boredom reasons.
Or maybe talk to parents about like how to get their kids to engage.
Is there anything that's been surprising that you've seen or ways you've seen boredom show up in families
I think the surprising thing to me about boredom is how fearful parents are to let their kids to be bored.
I mean I can identify let's say the car ride.
I think there's lots of times I was bored, but I would just I don't know if I would have labeled it as bored because that's just what it was.
You just don't have all these extra things to do
and so you just have to figure it out, right?
So there were so many times I'd just sit in my room by myself, kind of be bored and then be like, Oh, I guess I'll just get out my journal or I'll read a book or I'll play with my Barbies or whatever, right?
But I think parents are
kind of afraid to let their kid just have nothing to do.
And so something that I hear a lot of the time from parents is like, well, I have to have them in five sports or I have to have them with all these
activities or play dates are I have to give them a screen 'cause otherwise what are they gonna do?
So that's almost like we're trying to erase the time that your child would just be bored.
Do you think though that's
the parents being afraid of their kid being bored?
Or it's like it's either they're on a device or they're in a structured activity and they don't know any other potentially any other way.
Because that's
what modern life has sort of become.
Well, I think they're worried that if their kid just has nothing to do, then they won't know what to do with themselves and they won't like be able to
manage that.
Like I think a lot of parents are fearful that their kid won't be able to manage just having nothing on their plate.
And the kid won't know what to do with themselves.
So then they'll just start
clinging and crying and whining be like I want my device like I want my tablet or I want to play Fortnite or I want to do this right so then the parents like well it's better which I understand this by the way
it's better to have them in an activity every single night.
So then at least they're not asking me for a screen every single night.
So I think that they just make the alternative to screens, keeping them super busy with sports
That's like I hear this all the time.
Sports or extracurriculars or whatever it is, so that they don't have that time at home where they're just like, I want to go play on my Xbox.
So I feel like that's the hard part for parents right now is they feel like if they're home and their kid is bored, they're just gonna turn to a screen.
So they're just better off.
Right.
not having that downtime.
I kind of understand that then.
Yeah, no, I get it.
If you think those are your only two options, then I sort of I get how you would
think that structured activities like sports is the better of the two alternatives.
That completely makes sense.
Yeah, and a lot of the time they're not
wrong, right?
Like I was talking to my mom at a screen time talk I was doing recently and she's just like my kid was really struggling.
He was really having a hard time getting off the Xbox.
So I just said, you know what?
I'm gonna put you in two sports this winter.
I'm gonna put you in hockey and I'm gonna put you in whatever, soccer, something else.
And let's just see if this can get you off the screens and you have something to do.
And it did.
And she's like, it works so well.
Now he's got all these friends at hockey, he's better socially, he's not on a screen every single night.
And so I'm definitely not saying that that approach is wrong.
Sometimes that
It's what needs to happen, but I feel like it starts in that early age where kids never have that time to figure out how to be bored
And then once they're older, like the tween years, then they just don't know how to exist without doing something all the time.
Yeah, I mean I think that makes sense.
But again, only if you think those are the two alternatives.
Yes, exactly.
Those are the two options you have.
Yeah, if you don't think
A child can be bored or maybe it's more work to try and help a child be bored and do things.
I don't know, but that to me that makes sense.
It would be better.
put them in sports than to have them watching a screen or playing video games all the time.
You know what I'm thinking?
I'm totally jumping ahead here.
I'm sorry.
It's okay.
We were talking about being bored and like when is the last time I've been bored
Yeah, I was gonna get to that actually.
But we can talk about that now.
This is like actually blowing my mind.
I'm like, I'm never bored.
So in preparation for this, I was thinking about that too.
I was asking our girls questions about it
And I was also thinking that the two of us, we are terrible at being bored.
We don't really give ourselves like even for myself, I would say, if I'm bored, I'm gonna go 3D print something.
So I'm still kind of actively doing something
Which is not maybe the worst thing.
But maybe that's kind of the point, right?
I'm bored.
Okay, that's my creative outlet.
I'm gonna go do that.
Yeah.
Or I'm bored and I go on the garage like we moved recently and we finally I finally have a garage
And I'm like, okay, how am I gonna organize this?
Like that makes me happy.
But that's good.
That's good boredom, right?
That is what you're supposed to do.
Be bored and then, oh, what could I do?
And then you go do that thing.
But for me
Because I work most nights.
My days lately have been packed to the brim of meetings and working on stuff.
Any spare minute I have, I'm trying to catch up on my life because I feel like I'm just f this is just lately, but I feel like I'm really falling behind on everything
Yeah, right.
I can't even remember the last time I'm like, I have nothing to do right now.
Like from the second I wake up in the morning and sometimes even during the night, because the kids wake up and need me, I always have something to do
So that's kinda sad.
Well, I've realized that for both of us, that even if we have the opportunity, we usually fill it with something productive.
Yeah, we're both very bad at resting, first off.
Right, and I guess is boredom and rest.
Are those the same thing?
Maybe we should define what bored and boredom actually means.
What does it mean to you?
You're the Well, to be honest, I did a bunch of the uh classic
Bunch of research on this.
So I'll just read what I wrote down.
So what boredom is, it's an uncomfortable feeling of wanting engagement but not finding it
So there's an attention and reward mismatch in your brain.
So you're looking for that dopamine of like, I'm doing something and it feels rewarding.
And it actually makes a lot of sense for me now that I know I have ADHD
that you can definitely see it and how I operate.
Yes.
It's uh I'm looking for that dopamine constantly and trying to do the next thing.
I and same for you.
And boredom is actually a normal, pervasive state, even for infants, and its impact depends on duration and context.
So what I found is boredom
The simple anecdote of like boredom is good for creativity is sort of a false statement or a myth.
It is, in a sense, but based on the research, boredom is great as long as the child has like a loving home
And there's resources available to them to try and use their creativity to do things.
Basically they're learning to problem solve
But you have to understand their age and developmental stage that they're at and like it changes as they get older.
Mm-hmm.
And resource dependent doesn't mean like you have to give them all kinds of toys.
It's actually more like
They need a few pencil crayons and a notebook or something like that.
Or they need to go outside and find sticks and rocks and they just need something to go out and sometimes it just according to the research I found, if
Children live in that safe and loving home and they have resources available to them to actually resolve that feeling, that uncomfortable uncomfortable feeling of wanting
some engagement in their mind.
It helps them build all these skills like problem solving and frustration tolerance and it just helps them develop.
But it can't be so much boredom that it borders on almost being neglectful.
Like you have to figure it out.
We're not gonna help you.
You just gotta figure it out.
It could even be like our five-year-old is saying she's bored and you say, well why don't you why don't you go draw a picture and like help her get the
Pencil crayons out and some paper.
So what you're saying, and I agree, that there's a balance between letting your kids be bored in order to
foster creativity, which I think if anyone's online following you know different pages, let's say on Instagram, you see that all the time.
Like I always see posts on like let them be bored.
It fosters creativity.
So yes
But then at the same time, if you are always forcing your child to be bored, like you're never just giving them something to do, but you're not presenting them with opportunities of how they can use that for creativity, then you might be setting your child up.
for like it's a little bit more on the neglectful side than just letting them be bored.
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, maybe neglectful is a bit of a harsh term, but it's more likely to hinder
their development, especially in the early years.
Well I feel like there's a difference between like a kid who's let's say seven and they're just by themselves every night after school, you know.
They have nothing to do.
Was it called the latchkey kid?
Like were they
are home and they're home for maybe hours on their own.
Parents aren't there, no one's supporting them.
That's kind of a recipe for them to get up to stuff that maybe they shouldn't be doing.
Yep.
Versus a seven year old who's like
Hey, I have to work after school, like I'm home, but I do have to get work, but I've put out some potential craft supplies for you.
You know, I'm here, but I know you can find something to keep your brain busy for the next hour.
Something like like two different things
Yeah, and my quick notes on the developmental snapshots are infants, so less than a year old, they need that caregiver-provided novelty.
So like new things and it helps them experience the world, but it's the caregiver
that's actually giving that stimulus to them and helping them not be as bored all the time.
But prolonged under stimulation, so prolonged boredom, can actually harm
brain growth.
Interesting.
So you kind of like you're trying to balance both allowing them to be bored and getting like a little bit frustrated, but then also helping them and giving them things to do and books to read or not books to read, but like you know the board books with like the
different colored things on it just to help them experience and touch and learn things in the world.
And then once they're in the toddler years, so from one to three, brief boredom.
helps to spark exploration and pretend play.
I mean we see that in our two youngest.
I guess our youngest is in the toddler stage.
So it sparks exploration and pretend play and you hear her singing randomly and when she's bored.
But chronic boredom
can lead to tantrums and meltdowns and restlessness and frustration and misbehavior.
And then once they get a little bit older, elementary, like five to twelve
Classroom boredom is actually, according to the research, considered to be not helpful.
Like at school boredom.
Yes.
That makes sense.
It can very much hinder their ability to perform well in school and to actually absorb the information they're being given.
Which I found I mean it makes sense, but it's interesting to me that in other situations that helps
built creativity, but then in school the research wasn't saying like they have to be engaged constantly.
They have to be able to learn how to do the hard things, even if they're kind of boring things.
But consistent disengagement or consistent boredom helps them be more disengaged and it ends up meaning they achieve less.
Actually I feel like you see that a lot in gifted kids.
Like so super smart
Kids.
They get bored and then they engage less and they cause maybe more troubles in class or they get into things they shouldn't because they're so bored by the material.
It's not stimulating enough for them
Mm-hmm.
The research that I found kind of said both sides.
So if a child finds the work too easy, it results in the same th pretty much the same thing as someone who f a child who finds the work to be way too hard.
Totally, yeah.
Which I just I found that's a lot of sense.
Interesting.
Unstructured time boredom can fuel creative self direct
to play in peer collaboration, which we definitely see in our older two.
They're trying to come up with games together.
And all of a sudden they'll be like, mom, dad, you have to come play a game with us after we're done dinner.
And they'll have this whole elaborate game that the two of them have created together.
'Cause they were bored after school.
Or they're like digging up a part of the yard and coming to us w with this bucket of dirt and saying it's something.
So at that age, persistent boredom apparently predicts later depressive mood and minor delinquency.
Yeah, I'm definitely seeing the difference here between
Like you said, your latchkey kid or your kid who's just constantly not engaged.
And it also makes me think of like as a connection issue, right?
So if you're persistently bored, that also tells me you're persistently not having that connected time with maybe
your parents or other people in your life.
Like you're just kind of by yourself.
To me that's very different than like actively being like what we do.
We're not gonna over plan you every night.
Some nights you're not watching a screen
And we have no plan, but hey, there's lots of craft supplies out, you have lots of stuffies, you have your Barbies, you can go ahead and do whatever you want with the things that we already have for you.
Two very different types of boredom.
And honestly, one of the things that I have found.
to kind of fit both structured and unstructured plays super well and we're not sponsored by them but was Lego.
Yeah we've just got into Lego
Well, your brother bought one bought like this bigger set for our oldest daughter.
Which she did tell him to buy.
Yeah, which she did tell him to buy.
I feel like we should tell that story.
It's so cute.
Okay, go ahead.
So she our oldest, when we're in Florida this winter, we went to Disney Springs and anyway there's a big Lego store there.
And she saw this Lego set and we said no, which we're gonna do a future episode actually on saying no to your kids when they want to buy things to teach them the value of money.
Anyway, so doesn't she call my brother?
She says, Mommy, can I call my uncle?
She calls up her uncle and says, Hey, for my birthday, for my birthday, can you please get me this wicked
Lego set.
Yeah, and your brother is big into Lego.
My brother's big into Lego set.
He does like the big big sets.
So my brother is big into Lego and obviously loves his niece.
So the fact that she's all cute and calling him, can you buy me the wicked Lego set?
He can't say no.
So then fair.
Because if his kid did the same to us, we would also have a hard time saying no.
If his daughter asked me for that, I would have a hard time saying no.
There's something about your niece asking you for something.
It's just like
Well I mean for Scott and I, we're real sucks for our nieces.
Like literally.
They could ask us anything and we'd be like, okay.
But for our own kids, it's easy to say no.
Easier to say no.
Anyway, so he got her this Lego set and now they've been really enjoying Lego ever since.
Yeah.
Um so sorry, continue.
Well we don't have that much that much Lego at this point.
But what I will say is
That toy, it does two things.
One, it gave some like time where uh our oldest and I sat down together and we spent several hours putting this
this whole set together and give us that connection time.
So I was doing one job, she was doing another next to me, the other two girls were like watching and trying to help a little bit and participate in it.
It was a a lot of work to put it together
But then by the end, she has now this set that she's been playing with non-stop.
So now it helps her with her imaginative play afterwards.
So it's both the structured and unstructured
play so when she's bored, first she had this structured play, and then after that it became this unstructured thing that she can use whenever she wants and
She and her sisters will well actually lately she've been hiding it in her room so that's the thing.
She doesn't want her sisters to play with it, which is fair.
Yeah.
But I just thought that was
Surprisingly, I've never actually been that into Lego.
Just because we didn't have it.
I didn't have it as a kid, so I didn't really understand it.
But then this set finally kind of made me understand why it's so popular.
Because it was super fun to do.
We got to build something.
So there's like that satisfaction of having built something together.
We got that connection time and then now she can use it for her imaginative play.
Yeah.
And that's like when we're talking about boredom, I feel like.
We see that in our kids.
Something that's really important to us is to give them a lot of that downtime.
Right.
So we have, and we've talked with this on other episodes.
So we have a lot of boundaries around the screens
how much screens they're allowed to watch.
And those have always been in place.
So I feel like that's helped them a lot.
They there's rituals around when you can watch a screen, how long you can watch a screen.
So they kind of know that there's a certain point in every night where it's like, this is your time to just figure out what you're gonna do.
And sometimes they play a game together.
Sometimes they want us to like play toilet tag or something like that with them.
Sometimes we play outside or we go for a walk and then sometimes they just figure out what they're gonna do.
And a lot of times, let's say our oldest likes to go up to her room
and play with her little Lego by herself or play with her Barbies by herself.
But they're not afraid of having that time.
And I feel like that's important for the parents who have those younger kids is you can actually start
teaching them how to deal with that open-ended time early on.
It makes it a lot easier when they're older versus trying to start that with an older kid who's used to having those dopamine hits from screens all the time.
It does get
tougher.
Yeah, and you were mentioning before that a lot of parents seem to fear, I guess, their child being bored because of the potential tantrums or meltdowns that they have.
We are saying that it can help
fuel creativity.
So what's the right balance between letting a toddler sit in that discomfort versus stepping in with redirection or helping them figure out what to do?
Something I remember with our oldest is I almost had to teach her how to figure out how to play on her own, right?
So kids are definitely wired to play, but they're also wired
for connection.
So they're gonna first always try and get those connection needs met and then when they are met then they feel like they can play.
So I do remember times where I'm like, oh my word, like
we have a new baby, you know, I just I need you to just go play on your own.
And they don't want to because as soon as you're frazzled about it and you're like, go play, then they're gonna hold you closer.
I hear that all the time from you
Yeah.
Stop bothering me so much.
Go play.
Maybe I should connect with you first next time.
Hey.
Hey, nurture Scott first.
Anyway.
What I would find with her, because there are some days where I'm like, oh my goodness, I can't deal with this whining and crying.
I just want to throw a screen on for you so that you just stop.
And sometimes I did.
And I remember that was hard because I had a baby, right?
But what I found and this little phrase I made up from my own head was like get the good going.
So sometimes I just had to like get it going for her.
So I had to sit on the floor, start playing with Barbies, get the Barbies out.
start with by just engaging, connecting with her, even if I didn't really feel like it.
And then often what I would find is once I got it going, that I got the play going, I could just take a step back.
And then she could do it on her own for a little bit until I had maybe had to engage again
That is actually how I built up the ability for her to learn how to play.
The other thing that I would do, and people who followed Nurtured First when it was our Mama Village might remember this.
But I used to set out what I called invitations to play almost every single morning, especially during the pandemic when we weren't going anywhere.
So I would set out on the table every morning just something interesting for her to do.
And I never would like assemble anything.
But let's say I'd put Play-Doh
Some popsicle sticks and some eyeballs, like those little googly eyes on the table.
And I wouldn't even say anything.
I would just literally set it out
And see what would happen.
And often she would, oh, this is cool.
And then she'd take the play-doh and she'd put a bunch of popsicle sticks.
She'd make a spider or something like that.
And I also taught her how to play independently by doing that, by just setting out these little invitations for her to learn how to find her own creativity, but there was some structure to it, because I would put that out for her.
Yeah
And I do think I did that for her, and then later I did that for our other toddler, and then the youngest one, I didn't do it as much for her, but she would observe.
her older siblings playing, so I think she learned how to play.
I didn't have to teach her as much because she wasn't the oldest.
Yeah.
And she would just watch.
She would just observe, right?
Oh she's right into it now.
But with some kids, especially our oldest, I had to really come teach her how to do this by yourself
And I had to always start by just joining her world, nurturing her, and then I would just I called it step back, teach this in the parenting little kids course too.
I would just take some steps back.
and just let her do it.
So I just say that because I know a lot of parents are like, well my kids don't know how to play.
And so sometimes you do have to start with a little bit more prompting.
And then you slowly wean yourself back.
But eventually she would go find the play-doh in the political sticks and she would do it herself.
She didn't need my coaching quite as much.
I feel like that would take a lot of effort.
For me.
What I eventually did is I just had a like I did a lot of the craft supplies.
Again, this is the pandemic, so it's not like I could really take her anywhere, right?
Like this was my only option.
You were working or traveling, had a baby
And I had a three-year-old.
Like I had to do something to entertain her.
And so eventually I just had this craft cupboard just full of random stuff from like the dollar store, whatever, Amazon.
And I would just make different combinations and it was actually very easy.
It would take me like two minutes to set something out in the morning.
But again, it's not like my nature.
I'm not the most like crafty person.
So it took some time.
Wouldn't say you're crafty, but you are playful
Yeah, I am playing.
Right, so I think with the girls, just in general, you are able to play.
Like I would prefer to be running around.
Outside with a soccer ball and doing that kind of stuff.
Mm-hmm.
But that's also Yeah, there I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.
It's more like if we want to give them the creative outlets like that.
That would be
I don't know, I can see how that would be difficult for a lot of parents.
But I mean this might be just a good reminder that those are possible.
Yeah.
The invitations to play is one way, but also
Yeah, start up a game with them.
Get outside, start passing a ball around, do a scavenger hunt, find some sticks, and then slowly wean yourself back and all of a sudden they've found some sticks and they're making a house or they're
Make a mud soup or whatever it is, right?
Yep.
So I think whatever lean into what works for you.
Totally.
Like
You like the rough and tumble play with your our kids.
I could do without that.
Like usually I'm very overstimulated.
Okay girls, grab the rakes.
We're gonna go rake some leaves.
It's super fun.
Let's build a pile
I mean, yeah.
I don't know if they would do it, but well, they probably would if the pile was like something, you know, a mystery.
It's like a mountain or something.
Mountain pile of leaves that you have to jump in and see
what magical world it takes you to.
See, this is where we're different.
Yeah.
I can make up some kind of crazy story about everything.
And the kids are like, ugh, that's so cool.
Yeah.
I'm not as cool as you apparently.
Although they would say that I am.
We'll ask them tonight.
We'll see who's Yeah, we'll ask we'll find out.
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I think the expectation is that by elementary school, kids are
kind of expected to self-entertain.
Yet classroom boredom, like I was saying, is linked to underachiev
So how should teachers and parents collaborate when a child is chronically bored at school, but thriving at home, or vice versa?
Yeah, I see this a lot.
So I'm seeing a lot of boredom kind of on both sides in the school front.
So on the gifted side, the kids who are gifted, they need the stimulation too, right?
If everything's so easy for you.
Of course you're gonna be bored, right?
You're done your homework way before your peers.
It's super easy for you.
It's not stimulating enough.
So those kids might need some additional pieces of work.
Most schools have programs for gifted students
See, I never understood that enrichment program, and maybe that works for some kids.
I was in that for a time and was very annoyed by the fact that I had to do more work
I would love to see and a lot of school I think enrichment programs are changing.
Yeah, I'm sure.
I mean, and I mean I can only speak to Ontario.
But I think the enrichment programs are improving and you know it is cool when you can do like our one of our kids is making a little library, like a free take a book, leave a book kind of situation with her class
I think it's cool when it's something a little more hands-on like that, that you can offer her whole class is it's not like a enrichment thing, but like when an enrichment program can be
like a project or something that's well mine was a project.
Like it was projects, but it was like you have to build this poster on I still remember my project was on the Tasmanian devil, which is like
an extinct animal from Tasmania.
And I just remember thinking like why do I have to do more work than the rest of the people.
Yeah, then it just feels unfair.
I was very annoyed with it.
You have a strong sense of justice.
Yeah
For me, I was often bored.
Like I literally hated school always.
So I was always bored by school.
Now with the ADHD diagnosis, I'm like, okay, that makes sense because nothing I didn't care about anything
I remember saying that to my mom all the time.
Be like, I don't care about anything.
Like what's wrong with me?
I don't care about Yeah, yet when you were in university I thrived.
Master's program and everything, you because you actually cared about it maybe.
But now that I understand ADHD, it's like
unless you're excited about the topic, it's very hard for you to focus on it.
And so now I look back and I'm like, okay, well that was clear for me because I
could never focus on anything in school and I hated it all.
I was so bored by it.
But then as soon as I went to university, I was succeeding.
I was doing so well, like nineties.
I'd never got nineties before on papers and projects and stuff
Because I actually like the topic.
So sometimes I wonder for kids who are struggling like I was in school.
Like people are always like, You struggled in school?
Like, yeah, like I was never good at it.
But it's like can we find a way that this could be engaging for those kids?
Like we're teaching them all the same way, but easier said than done, right?
But I So how do you think teachers and parents could collaborate on that then?
It's tough.
I I have a few people I'm working with right now.
I think sometimes an like a individualized education plan is is helpful for that, right?
Like how does this kid learn well?
Can we add in some more breaks so that they have some time to do something that they're interested in between these subjects that are very boring and difficult for them to do?
Is there a way that we can apply this thing that seems boring to something that they do like?
Right?
Like even sometimes math, like you could apply it to something that they are interested in.
But again, you know, I say all that and also recognizing that teachers are very overloaded.
They have a ton of students in their class, and it's very hard to meet all the individual needs of the students in their class.
We do the best we can, but it is difficult when you have so many kids in your class and to put them all on an IEP is very difficult as well.
So we're kind of dealing with a systematic issue too, that there's just not an easy answer to that.
Yeah
Now do you find?
Like my question was more about if a child is bored at school but not at home versus bored at home and not at school.
Like do you ever see that or are the kids usually
kind of just bored no in general.
I definitely see that.
Like I see kids who are bored at school and never bored at home.
So do you think there's a possible solution to that?
If you can see like why are they not bored at home
for instance, versus they are at school?
Like what what's the difference in how they're playing or doing things or well I I mean there's a couple ways I see this play out.
I definitely see the kids who are bored at school, hate school, similar to what I was talking about.
They're not stimulated by the subjects, they're not interested, they're not doing well, it's hard for them.
So of course they find it all boring.
There's nothing interesting.
And then they go home and they can do their interests, the things that they like.
Even a lot of times these kids have lots of opportunity to play, do crafts.
I had a little girl once who just loved
crafts.
And so as soon as she got home, she had this craft corner of her house set up and she would just get home and she would get right to it and she'd make her crafts and she'd make Christmas cards for everyone that she knew.
You know, she would
loved it.
So she was very stimulated.
She was never bored.
She would journal.
She'd write plays.
Like but at school she wasn't allowed to do those things.
She had to sit at a desk and work on her math problems, work on her biology problems, whatever it was.
And none of that was anything that interested her whatsoever.
So maybe there's something there.
It's like, okay, can this be related to something that you're interested in?
Can we see how potentially math could be related to solving some kind of problem with your craft
or something like that, so that there's a way this could feel stimulating to you and useful.
Right.
Because that kid would always be like, I'm never going to do this.
I want to become an artist.
So what do I care about this?
Yeah.
Oh
Never gonna do math?
That's how I felt.
That's painful.
That's how I felt.
I'm trying to convince the girls, especially our oldest, because she's actually doing proper math problems now.
Trying to convince her that math is everywhere
It's so exciting.
Yeah, but I totally relate to kids like that.
Like I hated math and was like, how am I gonna ever use this?
I will say the expectation that
Teachers are able to do that maybe somewhat unrealistic just because you're asking someone who's kind of a generalist.
They generally know
a little about a lot of things, enough to teach their class about in order to do that.
I don't know.
That would be challenging.
Oh I know.
I'm speaking in like an ideal terms.
Like I don't
I feel for teachers and I feel for parents because parents come in frustrated, like I want this from my kid, they need to learn this way.
And then teachers are like, I have 30 kids in my class and no help and no resources and no money for buying stuff
How am I gonna do that?
So it's a bigger issue than just make an individualized plan for each student.
Like that's just not really realistic
Yeah.
Now I kind of want to get into what I think is potentially exacerbating this issue.
And it's sort of the modern world.
paradox that we live in.
Like for instance, you hear that parents are like handing kids screens in restaurants, or we even see it, or cars or even grocery lines, and yet they still complain about being bored.
So from your perspective, do you think we're lowering children's boredom tolerance by doing this?
Yes.
And are there any practical boundaries that can help shift a child from passive
consumption, which I think not all, but a lot of screen use is passive consumption to somewhat active engagement.
Because I would argue that just saying no to screens in general
That doesn't sound realistic to me, nor does it actually sound helpful if you want your child to be tech literate.
So, like for instance, I got this little robot and I have to set up the program on my computer.
But you can program it to do different things.
It's for kids
You can program, bring little blocks in and they can get it to do things.
I would argue that that's a useful way to use your screens versus just watching shows all the time is not a problem.
I would agree.
I think we need to
When I teach parents, which I've been doing a lot of teaching parents lately about screens, I say, like, what is the function of the screen right now, right
I think about the kid at the restaurant with their family who's just bored.
They don't feel like talking to their parents.
Their parents like, yeah, it's fine, here you go, here's the screen.
What's the function there, right?
And that function is just like
your child doesn't feel like talking to you guys.
So in this scenario, you give them a screen so that they don't have to feel bored in the restaurant.
In that moment, if that's the reason, I would say then that takes your child away from an opportunity to actually connect with you, to talk to you
to feel bored enough that the questions that you're asking them, maybe they actually feel like answering them.
And it takes them away from the opportunity to feel that uncomfortableness of being bored.
Right.
So
That's very different to me than, hey, let's watch a movie as a family tonight, or let's learn how to code this robot, or
let's play a game together and race each other or spend time together, right?
So what is our function of the screen?
And it's the function just like
I want my child off my case.
I don't want to hear them whining and complaining.
I don't want to hear I'm bored.
So yeah, sure, go ahead and go on your iPad when I'm shopping at the mall or when we're at
a restaurant or like literally any moment that you feel bored to alleviate discomfort, I feel like that's when you're gonna get into an issue.
You're saying all this and honestly
I feel like I use my phone to pacify myself often and so do you.
Total You know what when I was talking to the kids today, I said to them and I was so c
Clear, I said, by the way, this is not just a you issue.
I'm sure there's times when you're asking your parents like, hey mom, can you get me a snack?
Or hey, can we talk together?
Or hey, can we do this together?
And they're on their phones
And they're scrolling on their phones and everyone was like, yeah, my parents do that too.
And I was like, yeah, so I just want you to know that when we're talking to you about your screens.
It's not just you.
It's us.
And as adults, we also have to take responsibility for our screen time use as well.
And I think you're totally right.
I haven't actually intentionally trying to not do that, and I'm not always succeeding
But let's say I'm like waiting in line for coffee or something, I'm intentionally trying to just keep my phone in my pocket and not take it out and just scroll it just unless I like literally have to answer a text or an email or something like that, which I don't have to do when I'm
Just standing in line for coffee.
And it's hard.
Like you just feel like your brain's just like, ah, I need that dopamine hit.
I don't want to just stand here and think.
I think writing a book for me has been really good because I have to think a lot in order to write a book.
So I've been trying to intentionally like have time to just think.
And then, man, when you all of a sudden have time to think, a lot of creativity happens.
Like for me, my brain's like, wow, there's so many thoughts, there's so many ideas, and then I actually have to go sit and write them
But for me, writing a book has been a huge eye opener of how much downtime it's actually required to do a creative venture like that and how you can't do that if your brain is constantly distracted.
So then is it even fair for us to be trying to set these boundaries if we can't even do it for ourselves?
I don't know.
That's what I'm like I've been thinking recently.
I mean we are pretty good at setting the boundaries with the kids.
And I would say in general
We are pretty good about not using our devices too much with the kids, but there are times where it is literally that situation that you said where one of the girls is asking, hey Dad, can you give me a snack?
Can you give me a snack
Like, yeah, yeah, one minute, one minute.
I'm searching for something.
Dad, can you give me a snack?
Yeah, yeah, I will.
Just give me a second.
I think it's both.
You have to set the boundaries for your kids, especially when they're little, because their brains are in their formative years.
And do you want your child's brain to form?
craving that dopamine hit constantly from the screens.
And they're gonna learn from what's modeled to them.
So if daddy, like just to use you as an example, if you're always on your phone
then they're gonna learn, oh, okay, well that's what my dad does, so I'll do like what's wrong with that?
I'll do the same thing.
And I do think we have to be mindful and I know that we call each other out sometimes, right?
Like if you're on your phone and it's dinner time
Honestly, it's probably once it's probably once a week that one of us calls out the other.
Yeah.
At least.
But I feel like it's okay.
It's like healthy and and we're on the same page.
And usually let's say if I call you out, you're like, oh yeah.
Okay.
And you'll put it away.
Yeah.
Because sometimes I think you don't even realize.
Like you're just sitting here, you're like, oh, I'll just pick it up for a second.
And all of a sudden ten minutes later you're lost.
Like not just you, but me too.
Like I'm lost looking at an Instagram post or a DM or an email.
She's very rarely social media for me.
It's more like I thought of, oh, I need to find storage hooks for the bikes.
That's your problem.
So that
I can actually store them out of out of the way because we don't have a big like we have a very small garage.
So I want to make sure they're out of the way and then I'll spend time.
Okay, which one I'll look.
Okay, what's the best type of hook?
for hanging bikes and I'll spend time doing that and then it'll get me on this tangent.
Oh, there's these other types of mounts that you could use.
Is that better?
Is that worse?
One gonna damage I feel like we've gotten into arguments because you are like this before.
Where like I'll say one single thing to you and you'll just want to research that more.
And so like I feel like we're having a nice conversation.
I just want to talk to you.
I'll say you're like
have your phone out and you're I'm like, no, I didn't want you to res like I literally just want to talk to you.
I don't need you to research it.
I'm doing this what I do for this podcast, but I'm doing it for a hook for storing bikes.
You always want to be in the know.
You always want to research something.
And so sometimes then it gets in the way, right?
And I I mean I can be the same way.
My thing is more like I'll just quickly check my DMs.
It's like I'll have posted something, I'm worried it's controversial, like I wanna make sure that no one's trying to cancel me online or something.
Which that never happens, but anyway, and then I'll go on and all of a sudden 15 minutes later I'm like, ah, I just got sucked into a whole bunch of DMs.
But I will say, I think this was our New Year's resolution.
We are getting a lot better about this
I know you say that, but often I don't feel that that's true for myself.
I feel I'm getting better.
Yeah, I think you are.
I think I'm getting a lot better.
I think
There's still some room for growth for both of us, but can't say can't say staring me down.
Can't say who needs the growth the most, but I actually think I've been a lot better.
And it's been quite nice.
I would agree.
Yeah
It's definitely an issue that I have because I like to be, like you said, I like to be in the know.
Yeah.
I want to understand that like even when I decided to buy the 3D printer that I have, it probably took me
two to three months to decide to actually buy that 3D printer.
Even though I was pretty sure after the first day of looking into it that it was the right one.
It took me months to decide that I had made the right decision on that first day.
So he'll research something to the nth degree.
Yeah.
But yeah, I do feel like I've made a lot of progress.
And I think once you've made progress, then you do notice how much everyone else is on their phones.
Yeah.
Because I'm not on my phone.
So then I feel like I'm harder on you because I'll be like Scott.
I'm sitting here just trying to talk
Or we're having dinner or we're like whatever.
You're a lot better, I do think.
Anyway, I think it is good to hold each other accountable to that if you want to hold your kids accountable.
Yeah.
Because I think you're right on that point.
Like what's the point of holding your kids accountable to being bored and not being on their devices all the time if we can't even model that to them?
I wonder, I don't know this for sure, but I sort of wonder if
I mean in the end their brains are developing at a much faster rate than ours are now.
Like ours are kind of morphing over time, but they're not really developing is the right word anymore.
But for them, it does make sense, I think, to set more boundaries.
But it just feels like it's counterproductive if we are doing the exact same thing that we're saying they can't do.
Totally.
And then expecting them not to see that.
And eventually eventually they're gonna get a phone or whatever, some sort of device, and they're not going to do that same th I don't know.
It just and I I mean I'm calling myself out there too, because I'm I'm just as bad as everyone else.
So
Yeah, I think it's both.
It's protecting them but also modeling.
Yep.
And that was really convicting to me, I think, last year.
At the end of last year I was like, I felt very convicted to be on my phone less around them because I don't want to model to the girls especially.
Like
be on social media all the time.
Like, yeah, it's my work, but I don't want them to see that that's like a thing that I want them to do.
Yeah.
All right, let's move on.
Yeah.
I mean we know a bunch of people that do this and we've heard about it a lot, but highly scheduled kids rarely get the gift of free time.
If a parent has a full calendar of sports lessons and tutoring, what's a realistic first step to reintroduce unstructured boredom without triggering anxiety?
they're not going to be used to being bored for the parent or the child.
I think it kind of goes back to the nurture first kind of thing I was talking about before, right?
It's like
if you're introducing your child to being bored for the first time, you can't just like throw them out and be like, Hey, be bored.
See what happens.
Like we can say that to our kids because they're used to that.
But if your child's never had that and you're trying to take a step back from having so many activities and stuff
you're gonna have to start by being with them more at the beginning and teaching them, like I was saying, teaching them almost how to play, how to be creative.
And whatever that is, like maybe you can be like, hey, why don't we just sit together?
I'm gonna have my journal out, you have your journal out, let's see what we can draw about our day.
or let's get some play-doh out, let's just see what we can create, or for older kids.
And maybe you just go for a walk and you just start to notice
What do we notice on our walk?
What colors are out here?
Our oldest daughter and I, when I was again trying to teach her how to be creative and how to how to play, we would go for walks and my baby would be in the carrier and
we would try and find every color of the rainbow on our walk.
And we would just do that over and over and over.
And that was my way of trying to teach her to be mindful of her surroundings
Yep.
And we just go through the rainbow over and over until eventually when we were going for walks, she would start to notice that and start to collect things that were rainbow colored.
So I think at the beginning we have to know that there is parental involvement, but again, that can be
reciprocal and mutually beneficial, right?
Because you're also teaching yourself how to notice the world and how to play and how to be bored and how to be creative.
And for me, that was very eye-opening for me
to pause long enough to get creative myself.
I feel like kids really help you learn
that saying stop to smell the roses because that's legitimately what they do constantly when you're on a walk with them.
Yeah.
They are distracted
Constantly by all the cool things that they're seeing and all the new things.
I literally went on a walk with our toddler last night when you were at karate with the girls.
And she l legitimately I kid you guys not, stopped to smell flowers.
And I wanted to get home so I could put her to bed because we have company coming and stuff.
And I almost said to her, stop smelling the flowers.
Like I almost said that.
And I was like, am I literally gonna tell a child to stop smelling the roses?
You know, like the phrase
I was like, we can take an extra five seconds to smell the flowers.
But that's what they're supposed to be doing, Jess.
I don't know if you knew that.
It would have been so easy for me to rush her and then I'm like, w like what am I rushing her for?
To get h home two minutes earlier
You know, and then I just waited her out and it literally was like ten seconds and then off we go.
She's smelling the next thing.
But I realized that I think
one of the opposites of boredom is rushing too, right?
Just always rushing, always getting to the next thing and and that's where I end up being a lot of the time.
I mean our oldest even said it last night.
Our middle daughter wanted to start karate.
And we said, you have to wait until you hit five years old and then after that, we will try it.
See if you like it.
Well she loves it, but that means that we have to go to a different class and it's a rush on Mondays to get there
And our oldest girl said, I don't like going to the kids' class.
Yeah.
We have to rush to get out.
I like to spend time just
doing my own thing before we go.
Totally.
I also don't like when you go to the kids' class because I feel like we get home such a fast dinner.
We don't have the family time.
I'm like hustling to like get it on the table and then clean it up and then boom you guys are gone
And then when you get back, it's like, oh, we gotta rush you to bed because now it's late.
I hate it actually.
But I I I understand they like it, but you have to be
mindful of so it's one night a week that we rush.
Yep.
And so we're okay with it because it's one night a week and they do love karate.
But a lot of people do that every night.
But if that was every night many nights a week
I would not be functioning.
Like I can't even deal with the rush like that.
It's too much for my nervous system.
Okay, I have a few quick ones.
Here's a good one that you might smirk at.
Imagine you're designing a one-hour workshop
For parents titled Harnessing Boredom.
What exercise or exercises would you lead to shift the parents mindset more powerfully?
Great question.
Now I want to do a workshop called Harnessing Boredom.
Let's add it to our lists of potential workshops to do.
I thought you might like that.
No, I actually love
Harnessing boredom, finding creativity.
I would probably start with a mindfulness exercise of imagining a time you were bored as a child.
What did you get into?
So similar to what you started.
I would definitely start with a mindfulness exercise.
I probably would do a couple of mindfulness exercises because mindfulness for people who struggle to be bored is very difficult, right?
Like as you've said, oh I should do more mindfulness.
It's hard because you have to literally sit there
sit with your own feelings and pause.
It's very hard for us to pause.
And again, this is where like maybe we're different because like I'm okay with that pause as a therapist.
That's like something I practice a lot, right?
Like you have to do a lot of mindfulness
probably to be a good therapist, you have to be able to pause.
But for most people that's not a day-to-day part of their life.
It's like slowing down, being with their thoughts.
And then I'd probably challenge people to say, what do you do?
Like we talked about when you're in line at a store.
Do you immediately grab your phone?
Do you immediately start scrolling through whatever it is, reels?
Could we take that moment to just leave our phone in our pockets and
Wonder, just think, think about your day, think about what's coming next.
Just think.
And if you can't think, it's like the rainbow thing that I talked about with our daughter, right?
Notice the colors in the rainbow.
Like that's a great mindfulness activity.
And you find each color of the rainbow in the room that you're in right now.
It just it allows you to be present and still have something to do with your mind.
The other way that I talk to people about when I'm teaching them like how to just pause, whether or not this is boredom, just pause, the radio in the car.
Right.
I used to be a huge I mean, hey, please always listen to Robot Unicorn, but uh, you know, the radio in the car.
Do you always have a podcast on?
Do you always have an audiobook on?
Do you always have something on?
Or do you ever just sit there in the silence and think about your day?
I started this practice early on in my role as a therapist because I would see and hear so many difficult things
that if I didn't take time to just process it in the car on the way home from work, like I found I was grumpy.
It was very hard for me to like focus when I was home.
Yeah.
So I started this practice of just not listening to the radio on my way home from work
or anything and just thinking.
And people every time I say that are like, What?
I never would just think in the car.
So that's another way.
So I would probably talk to people about these things and then say like notice how uncomfortable that feels for you and see if you can do it.
That's a tough one for a lot of people, but I would just start with the simple things like that.
Just the pauses.
If you want to teach your kids how to pause, you have to learn how to pause in that way too.
You're saying that, and I think I was far better at that when we did not have kids
So before we had kids, I had a commute.
A commute that was an hour and fifteen minutes one way.
And there were times quite often actually I was just I was annoyed with the radio
I had a cassette player in the in the car.
So I had the car.
Like I either had to have like a little thing that I could play from an MP3 player with the cassette in there or something.
But I would go the entire drive there and back without listening to anything.
But I guarantee you I could not do that today.
That would be too uncomfortable for me.
Interesting.
I also wonder how much kids fuel our inability to focus and we've talked about this at length.
I mean I feel like that's a whole other episode on focus maybe, but
We've talked about this so much.
It's like because your kids are constantly distracting you.
They're constantly interrupting you.
You're constantly like, I lost my van keys.
I never lose my van keys.
But I lost them yesterday because
I was doing one other thing and all of a sudden her toddler took them off the counter and she started playing with them and I was like, okay, I'll get back to taking them from her.
And then I just didn't.
And then this morning like, where's the Van Keys?
Like I never do stuff like that.
Thankfully we found the back.
But kids are just like a recipe for lack of focus.
Yes.
So your brain gets used to that in a way, I think.
And then it's harder to have those pauses because you're just not used to it.
We have to make a conscious effort to actually
Do that, is that what you're saying?
Yeah, and like I know for me, if I don't have that time, like if I don't like I love my 10 minute drive home from work.
Like if I don't have that drive home to just process the day, think about okay, and then switch gears in my head
It's very hard.
Like when we lived closer to work, it was actually harder for me to transition home.
Yeah, for sure.
Okay.
Uh I just want to finish with a couple of rapid fire questions for you.
So rapid fire, yeah.
Yeah, the rapid fire questions deserve rapid fire answers.
And then after that, I think we're gonna call this a wrap.
Yeah.
What is one sentence you'd want every child to internalize about being bored?
Boredom ends when creativity begins.
What is one practice you'd want every adult to try the next time their child says, I'm bored?
What I say is
You're bored?
Great.
Let's see what you can come up with to do and I'll help you.
I said that that was gonna be the end, but actually I want to share with you and the people listening, anyone who's listening still to the at this point.
Uh I asked our two oldest daughters if being bored is good or bad.
The oldest said, um, I think it's mostly good.
I don't like it.
But I think it's mostly pretty good.
And I said, well, okay, why?
Why is that?
She said, well uh when I'm bored, that's when I come up with really fun games.
And that's when I'm able to
or me and her younger sister.
That's when we're able to come up with all these imaginary worlds and play in our yard and we have like
some trees in the backyard in the enchanted forest that we have.
And it's like okay and then why why do you think like why don't you like it?
She's like, well it's kind of tricky when when you're bored and you don't know what to do.
Like sometimes it's just really hard to figure out what I want to do.
Yeah.
Like, okay, that makes sense.
Yeah.
But overall, by the end of the conversation, she said, I think being bored is good because it makes me have to figure out what I have to do next.
What I want to do next.
And then our middle daughter said she did not like being bored at all.
And I mean there's a whole bunch of stuff on temperament and sensitivity that we could go into that's
We need to do an episode on temperament at some point soon.
But yes, okay.
But that's related to boredom in s in particular.
Anyways, she said she didn't like it at all.
I said, okay, why is that?
She's like, well I I just have no idea what to do and I I don't know, I can't remember the exact words, but basically I don't know what to do.
Like, okay, yeah, fair enough
So what do you think would make it better?
Well, maybe when adults help me.
Or I think she said when when you or the teachers help me.
Like yeah, that makes sense.
And based on what we've just talked about, that kind of maybe this confirmation bias, but it sort of is confirming what the research was saying and what you were just talking about.
So I thought that was an interesting thing to end our conversation on.
Yeah, beautiful.
I think this is a helpful conversation.
I'm surprised we talked about it for so long, but I feel like there's actually a lot to unpack within boredom for ourselves and for our kids.
Well boredom is important.
Yeah.
That's what I learned.
Yeah.
Within within reason, of course.
But boredom is important.
It's very helpful.
Well, go get bored.
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